Post #SourceDatesAuthorPost
#1SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Howitzer
[Hunter] Beast Mastery Bible

I've literally been full marks for over 2 years now, and rightfully so. I've PTR tested BM spec and survival post 2.0 without ever considering it for full time hardcore raiding. I was 21/30 back in the day as well.

Having said that, recently I have been wondering quite a bit about the 2.1 patch and the changes it will mean for pets in particular. Avoidance, increased attack speed, the new Hunter's Mark, the changes to Glancing Blows, etc. All this is making me wonder whether or not the BM tree will truly be a viable and top DPS build in 2.1. I'm also bringing this up due to the fact that 25 man raiding hunters are usually, (if at all possible), grouped with a Shadow Priest. If you aren't, get used to running OOM or blowing Fel Mana pots every 2 minutes, (which isn't fun).

Being stuck in a caster group most raids isn't exactly beneficial to anyone but myself. They don't exactly need TSA and I don't exactly want to be grouped with warriors and rogues to give them TSA because then it doesn't benefit my mana problems whatsoever. Going BM with Ferocious Inspiration is actually a reason to keep me in with an SP/Warlock/Mage/Ele Shaman group and maybe even have them request ME to be grouped with them for that 3% to all damage boost.

I've come to the basic conclusion that my damage, (fully buffed, potted, flasked), is never going to exceed or match the long-term dps fights of a warlock, mage, or shadow priest, (I'm talking casters with 1100+ spell damage that are absolute rockstars at their class). I'm not even going to mention how rogues and fury warriors will top the meters again come 2.1...

So what does this leave me with? It basically leaves me with the choice of coming to terms with personal DPS versus group utility. The Survival Tree change will have a nice change to Expose Weakness but guess what? We don't roll with a ton of melee in TBC raids. Its world of rangedcraft from here on out pretty much. So have any of you other long-term raiding hunters had the same thoughts on this as I am? Just curious.

Last edited by Howitzer : 02/27/08 at 10:22 AM.
#2SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Spades
The BM hunter in our guild already outclasses any other spec, so I imagine it will only get stronger.
#3SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Rius
I switched to 41/20/0 from 7/4x/x about a month ago, and have enjoyed higher dps ever since. I can pretty much assure you that 2.1's buffs to BM spec and pet damage/survivability will make the BM tree even more enjoyable.

With the obvious footnote that if the encounter isn't pet friendly (for me, Gruul comes to mind, although that might get easier after the mend pet change), you'll wind up doing less damage than your Marks spec, but not all that much.
#4SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Oggie
Originally Posted by Spades View Post
The BM hunter in our guild already outclasses any other spec, so I imagine it will only get stronger.
So let me ask an honest (stupid) question: Why are any of your hunters anything BUT BM?

It seems that FI >> TSA, and I certainly can't think of any situation where Silencing SHot is helpful in raids, so why in the world are ANY hunters not BM? I feel like I'm missing something.
#5SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Spades View Post
The BM hunter in our guild already outclasses any other spec, so I imagine it will only get stronger.
no joke? If you don't mind could you post his name, etc? I'd like to see his setup / talent configuration. Also, is he outclassing people in 25 man raids? I could see this happening pre 2.1 if you're talking 5 mans or Kara.
#6SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Eej
Originally Posted by Oggie View Post
So let me ask an honest (stupid) question: Why are any of your hunters anything BUT BM?

It seems that FI >> TSA, and I certainly can't think of any situation where Silencing SHot is helpful in raids, so why in the world are ANY hunters not BM? I feel like I'm missing something.
Arena.
#7SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Granted, Marks is good for arenas, but I think this thread pertains to raiding - if nothing else I base that purely on the title.
#8SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
I would be interested to find out more about this. Even thinking of going BM spec makes me feel dirty, as I've been true Marksman since launch. But anything for better dps to justify the raid slot.
#9SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Granted, Marks is good for arenas, but I think this thread pertains to raiding - if nothing else I base that purely on the title.
Indeed, I'm specifically looking for discussion / feedback on raids. Discount PVP, 5 mans, or Kara, (which I don't consider a real raid because of small group configuration and weaker mobs).
#10SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Jayde
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
no joke? If you don't mind could you post his name, etc? I'd like to see his setup / talent configuration. Also, is he outclassing people in 25 man raids? I could see this happening pre 2.1 if you're talking 5 mans or Kara.
The BM Hunter (class leader) of our guild tends to either do the same or better damage in raids and 5-mans than MM hunters. I have never seen him significantly out-damaged by the MM Hunters in the guild (all of our Hunters are pretty good players and similarly geared, also) but regularly grabs the top spot himself. This is even considering fights such as Gruul.

His Profile:
http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...light&n=Polina

I think BM is highly underrated, and I'd imagine the incoming changes will push things even further in its favor.
#11SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12hawkon
Originally Posted by Oggie View Post
So let me ask an honest (stupid) question: Why are any of your hunters anything BUT BM?

It seems that FI >> TSA, and I certainly can't think of any situation where Silencing SHot is helpful in raids, so why in the world are ANY hunters not BM? I feel like I'm missing something.
pet survivability is the main reason I guess. I'm BM at the moment, and I wanted to spec it earlier, but had no choice but to stay MM since we were working at Gruul at the time. I can only imagine how BM spec was pre lb nerf.
#12SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Jayde View Post
The BM Hunter (class leader) of our guild tends to either do the same or better damage in raids and 5-mans than MM hunters. I have never seen him significantly out-damaged by the MM Hunters in the guild (all of our Hunters are pretty good players and similarly geared, also) but regularly grabs the top spot himself. This is even considering fights such as Gruul.

His Profile:
http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...light&n=Polina

I think BM is highly underrated, and I'd imagine the incoming changes will push things even further in its favor.
Jayde, someone like Polina is a perfect example of a BM hunter that knows wtf they're doing. You can simply tell by looking at his/her armory profile. Thanks.
#13SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Question regarding Polina (I don't think he/she is reading this thread, but maybe someone else can help): when you've got your bow speed down to 2.1 with SS and quiver, is it better to keep the crit scope or swap for +12 damage?
#14SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
I'm also considering switching from long-time MM to a BM build in 2.1.

1) With Serpent's Swiftness as all-powerful as it is, you can make up for 19 MM talent points (Barrage, Imp. Barrage, Master Marksman, Careful Aim, and Ranged Weapon Specialization) with just 5 points. I've found more and more due to lag/mana I use a auto/special rotation almost exclusively.

2) All of the epic ranged weapons are 2.7+ speed. They are perfect for a auto/special rotation with the 20% haste adjustment. Trying to fit 2 specials between autos is very difficult as MM, and gets impossible with Quick Shots.

Using a spreadsheet and taking everything into account, I see a BM Hunter doing 99% of the damage the MM hunter does - without factoring in the pet at all! Once you add in the extra +80% pet damage you get from the BM talents it's a no-brainer. Ferocious Inspiration is icing on the cake.

Unless Blizzard starts putting +RAP instead of +AP on gear (allowing Master Marksman to scale better), and come up with some way for TSA to scale MM isn't a very good tree. The utility (scatter/silencing) doesn't work in raids and the group buff is mediocre at best. My guild already has a die-hard Survival Hunter, so we have the Expose Weakness DPS-martyr covered.
#15SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Fenrus
I believe the main reason many hunters have an aversion to BM is it requires a great deal of micromanagment and multitasking. In a fight like Gruul, you have to focus on your shot timings while watching your own health, your mana, your position to avoid cave ins, and your pets health and position, not to mention making sure you hit your trinkets/rapid fires every time they're off cooldown, and watch your threatmeter (at least earlier in the fight). If your pet dies early as an MM hunter, it's a bummer as you'll lose something like 20% of your DPS potential, but if your pet dies early as a BM hunter you'll lose more like 30-35% of you DPS potential. So as a BM you really want to make sure your pet doesn't die early. It's one more thing to worry about I guess.
#16SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Thats a good question, but honestly I think it has to do with the min-max damage on the bow itself as also being a factor in crit scope vs damage. I'd stick with the 28 crit rating myself.
#17SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
You are speaking of BM hunters being way better than other hunters in your guild, but how do they compare to the other dps classes in your guild? I am spec'd 0/31/30 and I have been able to stay at or near the top of the dps meters (against any class mage/lock/rogue etc.) I do have good gear but they do as well. Check my armory profile to see my gear. My guild has killed Gruul and Nightbane so we are not complete noobs. I have tried BM but I just can not keep my pet alive to in the important fights (this may change in 2.1 but I am still not sure it would be better than my spec.) to use his dps or beastial wrath. I am not trying to toot my own horn but I am saying a skilled player can do amazing dps as MM and even more with the hybrid 31/30 spec. My dps has been so good my guild leaders have asked me to try to help the other hunters so they are not always WAY below other dps classes. But really, all you BM guys, where do you compare to the locks/mages/rogues on fights like Gruul? If you have similar gear to them IT IS POSSIBLE to have the same (or even higher /shock) dps. Personally I am tired of the acceptance of hunters being on the bottom of the dps; we can be the best.
#18SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Madscorl
Originally Posted by Spades View Post
The BM hunter in our guild already outclasses any other spec, so I imagine it will only get stronger.
Be carefull that that comparison isn't made with low quality Marksman Hunters. I could say that my guild's MM hunters far outclass our BM hunters, but that would be because we don't have any BM hunters.

Originally Posted by Oggie View Post
It seems that FI >> TSA, and I certainly can't think of any situation where Silencing SHot is helpful in raids, so why in the world are ANY hunters not BM? I feel like I'm missing something.
You happen to be missing 9/10th's of the Marksman Tallent tree. TSA is NOT the only reason to go MM, neither is Silencing shot.

I'm just being critical of people who think they have a handle on this argument and try to make points that are far from robust or unbiased. I'm just hoping that discussion will continue off some of the extremely good points made in the last thread.
#19SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
You are speaking of BM hunters being way better than other hunters in your guild, but how do they compare to the other dps classes in your guild? I am spec'd 0/31/30 and I have been able to stay at or near the top of the dps meters (against any class mage/lock/rogue etc.) I do have good gear but they do as well. Check my armory profile to see my gear. My guild has killed Gruul and Nightbane so we are not complete noobs. I have tried BM but I just can not keep my pet alive to in the important fights (this may change in 2.1 but I am still not sure it would be better than my spec.) to use his dps or beastial wrath. I am not trying to toot my own horn but I am saying a skilled player can do amazing dps as MM and even more with the hybrid 31/30 spec. My dps has been so good my guild leaders have asked me to try to help the other hunters so they are not always WAY below other dps classes. But really, all you BM guys, where do you compare to the locks/mages/rogues on fights like Gruul? If you have similar gear to them IT IS POSSIBLE to have the same (or even higher /shock) dps. Personally I am tired of the acceptance of hunters being on the bottom of the dps; we can be the best.
Bigblue, nice post, I agree with you to a certain extent. But lets be honest here, if your casters are seriously geared the fuck out with 1100+ spell damage and 2 years experience under their belt you shouldn't be out dpsing them in 25 man raids. I can do it on trash mobs in SSC and be #1 on the meters with a full MM build, but when it comes time for a boss I'll be very lucky if I'm #5-8 on SWS.

About 31/30, (which this post isn't about), you might want to try 38/23 instead. Your LR talent is only giving you 1.4% crit and 84 RAP or so, but you're losing about 200 RAP in its place in-addition-to losing barrage and 1 pt in imp. barrage. Check my current profile. Cheers.
#20SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Eej
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Granted, Marks is good for arenas, but I think this thread pertains to raiding - if nothing else I base that purely on the title.
I am merely responding to the question that was asked. He asked why there are Hunters that are not BM, I responded by saying, "Arena." There are a lot of lazy people (like me) who (used to) raid with PvP specs because they're cheap, lazy and value PvP over PvE.

Plus, BM has always been seen as that spec, where only noobs specced into it. Social stigma, if you will, of being a BM hunter.
#21SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
I would never use Gruul as good or anywhere decent example of damage meters. I had whole raid install newest SW_Stats, and to nobody's surprise we had different results on east and west. I checked prior to the Gruul kill and afterwards sync was enabled and we all had combat log set to 200yds.

Back to the discussion at hand. BM will scale upwards next patch with removal of glancing blows but hunter's HoT won't be enough to keep pet alive during cave in or any other pet killer ability. And fights where bosses are not outright pet killers but do cause you to send your pet in and out you will suffer the dps loss.

What I am leaning towards is bringing 2 hunters with new EW to the raids and upping number of rogues in the raid to 2-4 and see how that dps scales. A lot of fights should become rogue friendly and EW hunter would be aimed at new raid synergy even more so then now.

By the way, has anyone confirmed that pets are indeed affected by new glancing blows? Knowing Blizzard I wouldn't be surprised if they were not.
#22SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
2.1 will be a good improvement for BM hunters, but seriously, it was not needed to be on top of the dps charts.
I have been an MM up until the new talents came and I immediately switched to BM, because its plain to see that it does more dps in PvE then MM if you are able to manage your pet AND have a healer on your side. Your pet never needs more then a hot, really. I am honestly afraid that 2.1 will make BM more viable for lots of hunters and it might become the dominating build.

You can check my gear, you will see there is not much epic, which is for one reason and that is: blues are better.
I am wearing rouge leather gear and still want the leather shoulder from the chest. Apart from that improvements are rare and come with overproportional effort for negligible gains.
Every epic that I have in my bag comes with more HP and more mana and takes away dps.
I just dont need it. I never die, fully buffed I have enough HP and I dont have a problem with popping 10 or more super mana pots per raid to keep up the dps.

Same goes for the grouping. Having a shadow priest is great for your mana, but its bad for your dps. If you want to be with a spriest, you need to be in the caster group. That in itself is no problem and you might be welcome for your 3% damage buff, but no one helps your dps.

I prefer a group with a warrior, a melee shammy, a feral druid and maybe a rogue for dazing and perfect synergies. Everyone gives and everyone takes (imp mark is much appreciated here). I sure have to pop mana pots, but the buffs of this group push me and the pet so much that I dont want to miss it.

As for your specific question about 25 man raids, let me assure you, there is no difference. With gold you can counter the mana problem and your dps is only about to rise through more pally buffs and judgements. Having 3 pallies eliminates your mana problem altogether, no need for spriests.
#23SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Bigblue, nice post, I agree with you to a certain extent. But lets be honest here, if your casters are seriously geared the fuck out with 1100+ spell damage and 2 years experience under their belt you shouldn't be out dpsing them in 25 man raids. I can do it on trash mobs in SSC and be #1 on the meters with a full MM build, but when it comes time for a boss I'll be very lucky if I'm #5-8 on SWS.

About 31/30, (which this post isn't about), you might want to try 38/23 instead. Your LR talent is only giving you 1.4% crit and 84 RAP or so, but you're losing about 200 RAP in its place in-addition-to losing barrage and 1 pt in imp. barrage. Check my current profile. Cheers.
Thanks, I will check out this spec. As far as 0/31/30 I was comparing it to BM and saying that BM was not the only choice as most post in the thread had seemed to imply. And most of our casters have about 900-1000 + damage... not sure what it is but to everyones shock (including my own at most times) I really have been able to keep up with them.
#24SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
One thing I'm interested in seeing are good ballpark figures for a well geared BM hunter. As MM, I could say "Hey, that guy is at the hit cap, has 2100 AP and 22-24% crit, he's got a good setup." As BM, would it be analogous to say "That guy has 1600-1700 AP, is at the hit cap, and has 20-22% crit"? Seems like a lot of armory links I'm turning up have people in that range.

From a mechanics point of view, if I understand things correctly people are using a priority rotation. Now, as I understand it, this means maintaining steady->auto cycle until AS or MS come off cooldown, then replacing a steady with either one. Is this correct or incorrect?
#25SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
I have a quest for all the BM guys. Do you use steady shot? How does that work with imp aspect of the hawk? Do you just not use steady while imp AotH is up? Or, do you ignore the steady (possibly) slowing down your auto?
#26SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
One thing I'm interested in seeing are good ballpark figures for a well geared BM hunter. As MM, I could say "Hey, that guy is at the hit cap, has 2100 AP and 22-24% crit, he's got a good setup." As BM, would it be analogous to say "That guy has 1600-1700 AP, is at the hit cap, and has 20-22% crit"? Seems like a lot of armory links I'm turning up have people in that range.

From a mechanics point of view, if I understand things correctly people are using a priority rotation. Now, as I understand it, this means maintaining steady->auto cycle until AS or MS come off cooldown, then replacing a steady with either one. Is this correct or incorrect?
I'm almost 100% certain with a BM spec multi-shot isn't even considered in the rotation on single target fights. I would still use Arcane shot though since it ignores mitigation and can do more damage than a mitigated SS/AS. Back on topic though, I'd seriously love to see kill command as an auto-triggered event as soon as I crit. I already have a billion buttons to mash in perfect sequence to DPS effectively.
#27SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Harwin
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
I have a quest for all the BM guys. Do you use steady shot? How does that work with imp aspect of the hawk? Do you just not use steady while imp AotH is up? Or, do you ignore the steady (possibly) slowing down your auto?
I just continue using steadyshot. Steady shot also speeds up with imp AoTH (or so I understand - I haven't verified this myself) so in a latency-free situation it doesn't clip any differently than it did before. And yeah, latency becomes a bigger factor now and might make auto slow down a bit, but I'm still doing more dps than not firing steady at all, and I'm still getting a haste benefit from Imp. AoTH.

Edit:
(Based on Howitzer's comment below) I should note that even with imp AoTH my attack speed is > 1.5, so I don't worry about GCD issues. If I ever get Dragonspine trophy I'm going to have to seriously reconsider my shot rotation (or get a slightly slower bow - using a 2.6 base right now)
#28SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
I have a quest for all the BM guys. Do you use steady shot? How does that work with imp aspect of the hawk? Do you just not use steady while imp AotH is up? Or, do you ignore the steady (possibly) slowing down your auto?
I don't really know about IAoTH combined with SS and its overall effectiveness. I'm guessing it will really fuck your shot rotations up if you're firing faster than your GBC. Some BM specs I've seen don't even have points in it at all. Thoughts?

EDIT: The other factor I didn't even think about are the Slaying Talents. 3% Damage and 3% critical strike bonus damage on Humanoid Slaying specifically... This tier 1 survival talent replaced FI completely and is up 100% of the time. We all know the majority of all mobs in TBC seem to be Humanoid thus far. This won't be the case in TK / BT / etc, though.
#29SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Jayde
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Question regarding Polina (I don't think he/she is reading this thread, but maybe someone else can help): when you've got your bow speed down to 2.1 with SS and quiver, is it better to keep the crit scope or swap for +12 damage?
I asked him about this some time ago (when he was gather the mats for the crit scope) and he explained to me that crit was a larger DPS increase for his current setup. I think a lot of it has to do with crit affecting Arcane Shot, but +dmg scopes doing nothing...in addition to the effect of Mortal Shots.
#30SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12PhoR
Bigblue, as long as you don't have a weap that's too fast, you can easily fit steadies inbetween autos even when Imp Hawk is up (rapid fire is another question entirely though).
After 2.1, you're going to need to use Viper almost exclusively because steady/KC spam sucks up incredible amounts of mana. So I wouldn't even worry about Imp Hawk.





As far as BM and raiding is concerned in my eyes:

Encounters that are pet friendly..
BM is fantastic for a raid group, probably more so than MM hunters. BM hunters fit nicely into caster groups, which give them a much better chance to be paired with a shadow priest.. which is the single best synergy for hunters right now.

Encounters that aren't pet friendly..
BM shouldn't lose to MM hunter in damage by any significant amount. But BM's group buff and a lot of his utility is gone (can still have imp mark and can still scorpid sting). So an MM spec would definitely be better (though maybe not by much) in a no pet situation.



So then you just have to figure out how many encounters are pet friendly vs how many aren't.
We'll just have to see how much survivability the mend pet and avoidance changes grant us.






I also want to share part of a strat that I use in Gruul's right now because it seems to me that a lot of hunters that would like to go BM just aren't figuring out ways to keep their pets up in encounters where it should be pretty easy to do so.

Right now, your pet gets 100% health back when it's dismissed and re-called. Dismiss pet is a 3 sec cast followed by an instant call pet, which is FAR more efficient to do than using mend pet currently..
HOWEVER
If you out-range your pet, it auto-dismisses. So how can you use that to your advantage?
Call a safezone on the opposite side of the room from the entrance. Put your pet on stay a bit behind the raid before you engage the fight. Have the pet attack gruul as the tanks are running in (but don't use dash/dive, and no pet skills at the start.. you dont' want to beat the tanks to gruul or out-threat the secondary tank at the start or he'll take hateful and die)
When the first ground slam is about to happen, put pet on passive.. he'll run back to the stay spot and dismiss because of range. Then just re-call him after the shatter and attack again.
It's simple strats like this that can make BM spec just fine in raid situations.
You just have to figure them out.
#31SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
The other thing I was thinking about in 2.1 is the fact that it will take 30 shots to maximize your new Hunter's Mark to 440 RAP. Having 5/5 serpent's swiftness will decrease the time it will take to get you to that max level especially if you're the only hunter in a 25 man raid, (which is quite often the case in my guild).
#32SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Valkyrus
Originally Posted by PhoR View Post
If you out-range your pet, it auto-dismisses. So how can you use that to your advantage?
Call a safezone on the opposite side of the room from the entrance. Put your pet on stay a bit behind the raid before you engage the fight. Have the pet attack gruul as the tanks are running in (but don't use dash/dive, and no pet skills at the start.. you dont' want to beat the tanks to gruul or out-threat the secondary tank at the start or he'll take hateful and die)
When the first ground slam is about to happen, put pet on passive.. he'll run back to the stay spot and dismiss because of range. Then just re-call him after the shatter and attack again.
It's simple strats like this that can make BM spec just fine in raid situations.
You just have to figure them out.
Correct me if I am wrong, but would that not reset the pets stay position?
I see that working for the first shatter, but as soon as you call pet you would need to resetup his stay position.
#33SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Beerbaron
random answers:
- BM hunters use replacement cycles with 2.7 and faster weapons: special, auto, special, auto.. etc (where special is steady, auto, multi)

- multishot from a BM is generally a waste of mana on a single target though.

- when imp hawk procs, steady shot's cast time is sped up. most epic weapons are 2.6 or slower, so even with that proc, you can still maintain your shot cycle w/o too many issues

I need to do more research, but for post-patch I'm changing from MM to BM and will be stacking leather agi/ap extensively. a lighter mana burning steady/auto replacement cycle and dropping multishot will help alleviate mana issues. it really seems like this setup will be a good mix of dps and endurance.. just need to math it out more w/ gear availability. i'm almost ready to start believing that a BM in complete leather who FD+drinks (25-35% of their dmg continues while drinking) would do more than a hunter who tried to avoid FD+drink with mail int/mp5 gear.

BM also has fringe benefits:
- BM is much more welcome with a shadow priest than MM, potentially resolving mana issues when in full leather.
- replacement cycles are much more forgiving with your latency unless you are trying to thread a needle with a 2.3 type weapon (not a typical speed for epics though)

Last edited by Beerbaron : 04/26/07 at 1:38 PM.
#34SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
brannstokk
My BM rotation is Auto-Steady unless TBW is up, in which case I will use the higher-damage specials (Multi and Arcane) in place of Steadies, since they cost 20% less mana under the effect of TBW.

I also use Multi and Arcane with Rapid fire, since weaving Steadies between every RF Auto is impossible.

I pretty much believe the devs intended BM hunters to use the Auto-Steady predominantly, since it's very mana efficient. The surplus mana to be used for Mends.

Last edited by brannstokk : 04/26/07 at 1:41 PM. Reason: Clarification.
#35SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
2) All of the epic ranged weapons are 2.7+ speed. They are perfect for a auto/special rotation with the 20% haste adjustment. Trying to fit 2 specials between autos is very difficult as MM, and gets impossible with Quick Shots.

I'm not sure what you mean by a auto/special rotation with BM. How can you fit specials in with a 1.95 attack speed?

Here is what my theorycrafting on BM found:
There's hardly a reason to use special shots at all. You can't fit them in properly, they have to replace a steady. They do provide larger DPS, but at a very large cost.

The damage per mana of upgrading a Steady to an Arcane comes out to 0.65 damage per mana, the cost of a multi is 1.35 damage per mana (single target). To give some perspective, Serpent sting has around 4 damage per mana.

Specials are good for the following situation for a BM:
If you are with a Shadow priest
If it is a burst phase
If you have mana near the end of a fight
When you use The Beast Within.

Other than that, you are just wasting mana, and you are better off stacking the AP/crit. The BM build really breaks hunter's reliance on mana. So far the best builds I've found have used iAotH with a 2.6 - 2.7 after accounting for lag. At low latency 2.5 is viable but there's no good guns in that range.

One other interesting thing I turned up, is that the +haste enchants are still viable for the BM build. My spreadsheets showed the +10 haste rating to gloves slightly above +24AP
#36SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
I've been BM for a while now, been a fan of it since they added serpent's swiftness. By far the most powerful talent we have. There was a lot of talk about BM vs MM in the main hunter thread and I don't think my opinions have changed much since then.

A BM hunter with the right bow (2.7-2.8), using a priority queue will only be about 5-10% behind a MM hunter with a similar bow, or a MM hunter with a slower bow (3.2) who slots 2 specials and delays autos. That 5-10% is easily made up by the buffed pet.

Also I posted this in the hunting hunters thread. If you want to see what a pretty decent full burn rotation looks like as a BM hunter with a 2.8 speed weapon (with lots of haste effects thrown in to complicate things.

Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I recorded another and put it up on youtube, another perspective of complicated shot selection. Proc management and stuff. It was just a heroic Quag, I had bloodlust for a good chunk of the fight and I proced Improved Aspect of the Hawk a few times. It's certainly not my finest work but as you can see by the apparently spasming Orc in the middle of the screen a lot is going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abT2g-pIDY8

Edit: I died, he died and I ran out of mana at about the same time (1:30 into the fight) I was using a full burn priority queue with top rank spells.
#37SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Are Cats the new best-BM pets considering the LB nerf last patch? Or any pet with a Gore ability like a Ravager?
#38SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by brannstokk View Post
I also use Multi and Arcane with Rapid fire, since weaving Steadies between every RF Auto is impossible.
That was one of the questions I had. How does a BM use rapid fire effectively? I'm going to be running some numbers on that and looking at how to best combine TBW, Rapid Fire, iAotH, and Trinkets.

One question for the hunter community, what happens when you swap bows in combat? Is there a cooldown on your autoshot?
#39SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Beerbaron
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by a auto/special rotation with BM. How can you fit specials in with a 1.95 attack speed?

Here is what my theorycrafting on BM found:
There's hardly a reason to use special shots at all. You can't fit them in properly, they have to replace a steady. They do provide larger DPS, but at a very large cost.
steady shot *is* a special. auto/special rotations are called replacement cycles. the core cycle is auto/steady, but you replace arcane/multi in as mana allows.

btw, another bonus to BM is that you can sync your best trinket with TBW.

Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
That was one of the questions I had. How does a BM use rapid fire effectively? I'm going to be running some numbers on that and looking at how to best combine TBW, Rapid Fire, iAotH, and Trinkets.
that's part of the beauty of a replacment cycle.. its so simple. since most epics are 2.7 or slower.. when haste effets proc, you continue with your cycle. it would take an effective post-haste weapon speed of about 1.5 + latency to start delaying autoshots.. even then.. its best to continue with your cycle (possibly focusing on instants instead of steady at that point tho).
#40SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
A cat with Bite and Claw 9 after the glancing change will be pretty close if not a bit better than a windserpent. As of right now it is pretty close just because of the added uptime of FI with a bite/claw pet. Pets have buggy ability refresh/global cools sometimes they can use multiple abilities at once, sometimes not. Overall bite/claw has been able to dump way more focus than I first thought.

On anything that gets stunned or immobilized and triggers the stupid windserpent caster behavior, a cat do better.

As far as a ravager goes I can't really comment, I refuse to level one up from 63 to see.
#41SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
A cat with Bite and Claw 9 after the glancing change will be pretty close if not a bit better than a windserpent. As of right now it is pretty close just because of the added uptime of FI with a bite/claw pet. Pets have buggy ability refresh/global cools sometimes they can use multiple abilities at once, sometimes not. Overall bite/claw has been able to dump way more focus than I first thought.

On anything that gets stunned or immobilized and triggers the stupid windserpent caster behavior, a cat do better.

As far as a ravager goes I can't really comment, I refuse to level one up from 63 to see.
LOL same here man. There's nothing worse than leveling up a pet at that level to 70. I did it with a wolf at 67 and it was painful.
#42SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
that's part of the beauty of a replacment cycle.. its so simple. since most epics are 2.7 or slower.. when haste effets proc, you continue with your cycle. it would take an effective post-haste weapon speed of about 1.5 + latency to start delaying autoshots.. even then.. its best to continue with your cycle (possibly focusing on instants instead of steady at that point tho).
With Rapid Fire, a 2.7 becomes: 2.7/1.2/1.15/1.4= 1.397 sec. That's too fast, unfortunately. Taking steady out may be the best idea, but once arcane/multi are both on cool down there's not much you can do. You may even have to do the unspeakable and use Serpent Sting (ewwwww). Either way you won't get the same amount of damage out of a rapid fire that a MM/SV would get since taking out steady or delaying auto both hurt DPS a lot.

Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
steady shot *is* a special.
My mistake, I see what you mean now.
#43SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Rius
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Are Cats the new best-BM pets considering the LB nerf last patch? Or any pet with a Gore ability like a Ravager?
I've been using an Owl for some time now. Screech/Claw instead of Bite/Claw, +7% dps instead of +10%, 0% health adjustment instead of cat's -2%. Apart from the really annoying screeching noise every few seconds, Owls perform pretty well. And the latest rank of Screech is -210 ap to all targets, more than double the previous best rank.

I tamed the red and purple one from Sethekk Halls, and he gets a lot of attention =)
#44SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Beerbaron
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
With Rapid Fire, a 2.7 becomes: 2.7/1.2/1.15/1.4= 1.397 sec. That's too fast, unfortunately. Taking steady out may be the best idea, but once arcane/multi are both on cool down there's not much you can do. You may even have to do the unspeakable and use Serpent Sting (ewwwww). Either way you won't get the same amount of damage out of a rapid fire that a MM/SV would get since taking out steady or delaying auto both hurt DPS a lot.
you're missing a lot with that analysis. as important as delayed autoshots is the downtime in your cycle where you are neither casting a special or waiting for the .5 second autoshot tick.

that 1.4 number is a good thing! if it were 1.5 or 1.6 with all those haste effects, then imagine how much time you would spend post-steadyshot, but pre autoshot just waiting around casting nothing. also think about how well imp hawk will fit in since its not as big a buff as rapid fire. and by using arcane/multi replacements during rapid fire, you greatly minimize the effect of the delayed autoshots during rapid fire's duration.

even some of the best MM shot cycles will delay an autoshot by .1 or .2 seconds occasionally, or worse, they will have bigger non-casting downtimes in the auto,steady,auto snippet in their full cycle.

Last edited by Beerbaron : 04/26/07 at 2:24 PM.
#45SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
I would go with Ravager pet for Gore and Bite with BM spec. I know they are a bit of glass cannon for a pet but dps is quite a bit higher with them.
#46SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
you're missing a lot with that analysis. as important as delayed autoshots is the downtime in your cycle where you are neither casting a special or waiting for the .5 second autoshot tick.

that 1.4 number is a good thing! if it were 1.5 or 1.6 with all those haste effects, then imagine how much time you would be spent post-steadyshot, but pre autoshot just waiting around casting nothing. also think about how well imp hawk will fit in since its not as big a buff as rapid fire.

even some of the best MM shot cycles will delay an autoshot by .1 or .2 seconds occasionally.
Sorry, I'm not sure if we are arguing the same thing. I'm saying BM doesn't benefit much from Rapid Fire. I have no problems with the 2.7 speed and BM, I'm just saying that it doesn't get as much damage out of Rapid Fire as a MM.

That 1.4 isn't a good thing. With 100ms of lag, you are only getting 22.2% out of 40% of your rapid fire. BM wastes almost half of your Rapid Fire Haste if you keep using steady.
#47SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
you're missing a lot with that analysis. as important as delayed autoshots is the downtime in your cycle where you are neither casting a special or waiting for the .5 second autoshot tick.

that 1.4 number is a good thing! if it were 1.5 or 1.6 with all those haste effects, then imagine how much time you would spend post-steadyshot, but pre autoshot just waiting around casting nothing. also think about how well imp hawk will fit in since its not as big a buff as rapid fire. and by using arcane/multi replacements during rapid fire, you greatly minimize the effect of the delayed autoshots during rapid fire's duration.

even some of the best MM shot cycles will delay an autoshot by .1 or .2 seconds occasionally, or worse, they will have bigger non-casting downtimes in the auto,steady,auto snippet in their full cycle.
I have good latency and even with RF up with full MM I will occasionally miss an autoshot just due to how fast its firing off since I refuse to use a macro for shots. I will just have to try BM in SSC/TK/Gruul/Mag's Lair etc and find out for myself.
#48SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12PhoR
Originally Posted by Valkyrus View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but would that not reset the pets stay position?
I see that working for the first shatter, but as soon as you call pet you would need to resetup his stay position.
Which is why I said I was giving you "part" of my strat. Not going to spoon feed it.
But if you actually think about it for a bit, you should be able to take what I already said and work out an incredibly good/efficient way to keep your pet up and not stoned in gruul.
It's really not that difficult.


Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
That was one of the questions I had. How does a BM use rapid fire effectively? I'm going to be running some numbers on that and looking at how to best combine TBW, Rapid Fire, iAotH, and Trinkets.
You're right that you won't get as much benefit out of Rapid fire if it pushes you below a speed that you can hold a rotation..


But you could simply switch to a slower weapon right before popping RF. (if you had that luxury)

Glad Xbow = 3.2 speed / (1.15 quiver * 1.2 SS * 1.4 RF) = 1.66 speed
YES PLZ!

Now if only I had the time to grind for it
#49SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Optimized
I have a few fundamental questions regarding BM. Like the original poster I have been marks for a while and have been reluctant to give that up, despite a lot of evidence that BM may be the best damage build.

1) What trinkets are best for BM. My preliminary inclination is that you want possibly Daggerspine trophy, Bloodlust Brooch, Abacus of violent odds, or Mark of Conquest.
Which 2 of these would be best? Daggerspine trophy seems really strong if you can combine it with aspect of the hawk and get some nice rolling procs. Bloodlust brooch combined with a 4 minute rapid fire cooldown allows you to have some nice interaction with TBW.

2) What is the best pet? I have a windserpent and a cat. I don't want to level a ravager only to find out they are not very good. An owl also provides good utility and good damage.

3) What macros are good for Beast Mastery come 2.1? I saw one floating around that macro'ed steady and auto together that also had kill command, and lightning breath in it on cast random.

4) Seems some people suggest stacking just AP and Agi. Is this really the best? It seems like you want to run Imp Hawk, not viper.

5) What is the ideal bow? I have both Sunfury and Gladiator's. It seems if you had daggerspine trophy and imp Hawk there's a good chance of having one haste effect beyond Serpent's Swiftness. Does this justify Gladiators or is Sunfury still better?

5) BM seems terrible for 5v5 arena (possibly good for 2v2). Is this true. It just seems without the burst and without reliable interupts the build would not perform at a high level.

I'm sorry that I posted mostly questions.
#50SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12brannstokk
Originally Posted by Optimized View Post
5) BM seems terrible for 5v5 arena (possibly good for 2v2). Is this true. It just seems without the burst and without reliable interupts the build would not perform at a high level.
It's not as bad as most people let on. 99% of your Hunter abilities are the same. BM is less susceptible to being gayed around pillars, since your pet will chew hard on them wherever they run. BM is at a disadvantage on the pillars in Blade's Edge. It's a trade off.

It's true that BM is under-represented in top 5v5 teams, but you should check out the hunter "Discipleh," who is usually specced 41/5/15 (not at the time of this post, however) and runs a top-5 5v5 team in his battlegroup.

Consider that team's class matrix, and what role a BM hunter would play within that.
#51SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12AugustusTirion
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
Sorry, I'm not sure if we are arguing the same thing. I'm saying BM doesn't benefit much from Rapid Fire. I have no problems with the 2.7 speed and BM, I'm just saying that it doesn't get as much damage out of Rapid Fire as a MM.

That 1.4 isn't a good thing. With 100ms of lag, you are only getting 22.2% out of 40% of your rapid fire. BM wastes almost half of your Rapid Fire Haste if you keep using steady.
I think the detail you're missing is that haste effects Steadies casting time.
Under full BM haste of 2.22 Steady will fire in .67 sec.
So, even with the .5 animation delay between shots, you don't 'clip' auto.

Now, the snag to that much haste is that the GCD is still 1.5
If you continue putting a special between every auto, you WILL start clipping significantly.
The simple solution is to only use specials between about 2/3rds of your autos.
I'll leave it up to other folks to do all the math on the effect that has on DPS.

My *guess* is that with RF up and skipping a special every 3rd auto will net roughly the same dps, but you'd be firing fewer specials, thereby saving a little mana.
Assuming I'm right, just think of RF as mana conservation while maintaining full dps
#52SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Kaelvanas
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Jayde, someone like Polina is a perfect example of a BM hunter that knows wtf they're doing. You can simply tell by looking at his/her armory profile. Thanks.
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
One thing I'm interested in seeing are good ballpark figures for a well geared BM hunter. As MM, I could say "Hey, that guy is at the hit cap, has 2100 AP and 22-24% crit, he's got a good setup." As BM, would it be analogous to say "That guy has 1600-1700 AP, is at the hit cap, and has 20-22% crit"? Seems like a lot of armory links I'm turning up have people in that range.

The Iron Colonel asks the question I want to know, too. How do we know "wtf we are doing" as a BM hunter? Having never been one, I don't really have a good idea how to guage my own gear's suitability, nor how to look at someone's armory and know that they're geared well versus poorly.

With Marks, as long as they have decent +hit, ~20-22% crit, and 2000-2300 AP, I figure they're un-noobish.
For Survival, I'm looking for ~25%+ crit (more as gear permits of course ) and a truckload of agility.
For Beast Mastery, how do I analyze this?

I think I have a handle on making a good BM spec vs a poor one, but gear is throwing me for a loop.
#53SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
What about Efficiency VS Imp Hunter's Mark? If you're firing 20% faster with more Quick Shot procs and losing more mana is it not better to have your pet lose 110 AP so you can continue to fire off steadys?
#54SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by Optimized View Post
1) What trinkets are best for BM. My preliminary inclination is that you want possibly Daggerspine trophy, Bloodlust Brooch, Abacus of violent odds, or Mark of Conquest.
Which 2 of these would be best? Daggerspine trophy seems really strong if you can combine it with aspect of the hawk and get some nice rolling procs. Bloodlust brooch combined with a 4 minute rapid fire cooldown allows you to have some nice interaction with TBW.
The thing about Mark of Conquest is that you are attacking very fast with low mana shots. a 2.70 with iAotH hits every 0.906 seconds on average. At an average of 15mana per hit (based on 10% proc rate) that's over 80mp5. It's more mana than Aspect of the Viper. I'd definitely Go with the Broach as well, since it will go so nicely with TBW.

Originally Posted by Optimized View Post
5) What is the ideal bow? I have both Sunfury and Gladiator's. It seems if you had daggerspine trophy and imp Hawk there's a good chance of having one haste effect beyond Serpent's Swiftness. Does this justify Gladiators or is Sunfury still better?
Don't base your bow speed around a trinket. 2.6 is the best, 2.7 is ok. 2.8 and above has the disadvantage of only getting 7 hastened shots inside an iAotH proc instead of 8 and it will lose you about .5% haste. Also you will get in fewer steady shots.
#55SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Beerbaron
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
Sorry, I'm not sure if we are arguing the same thing. I'm saying BM doesn't benefit much from Rapid Fire. I have no problems with the 2.7 speed and BM, I'm just saying that it doesn't get as much damage out of Rapid Fire as a MM.

That 1.4 isn't a good thing. With 100ms of lag, you are only getting 22.2% out of 40% of your rapid fire. BM wastes almost half of your Rapid Fire Haste if you keep using steady.
i think I misread your post as a dismissal of BM due to rapid fire's issues, not an isolated comment on rapid fire itself. by 1.4 being a good thing, i meant that it means you are near optimal for a replacement cycle for the time you are not using rapid fire.. which is more important.

rapid fire also mucks with MM rotations, however its harder to calculate to what degree. unfortunately the state of hunters right now is that no shot cycles really account for non-haste states and haste states without introducing clipping and/or 'waiting time' outside steady/auto casting states in at least one of those states.

if swapping range weapons doesn't initiate the global cooldown, then that may be the best solution for both specs.
#56SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
The thing about Mark of Conquest is that you are attacking very fast with low mana shots. a 2.70 with iAotH hits every 0.906 seconds on average. At an average of 15mana per hit (based on 10% proc rate) that's over 80mp5. It's more mana than Aspect of the Viper. I'd definitely Go with the Broach as well, since it will go so nicely with TBW.



Don't base your bow speed around a trinket. 2.6 is the best, 2.7 is ok. 2.8 and above has the disadvantage of only getting 7 hastened shots inside an iAotH proc instead of 8 and it will lose you about .5% haste. Also you will get in fewer steady shots.
I'm guessing BM is for low-latency hunters who are very good at twitch gameplay then? Since MM has a lot more wiggle-room for error. From what you posted above you're stating that the Gladiator Xbow would actually lose PVE dps in shot rotations over a longer duration, correct?
#57SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by Kaelvanas View Post
The Iron Colonel asks the question I want to know, too. How do we know "wtf we are doing" as a BM hunter? Having never been one, I don't really have a good idea how to guage my own gear's suitability, nor how to look at someone's armory and know that they're geared well versus poorly.
I have the framework for a Pet DPS calculator. Is there a good resource kicking arround that has pet damage formulae like base damage etc? Petopedia has plenty of formulae but no DPS ones.


Originally Posted by AugustusTirion View Post
Assuming I'm right, just think of RF as mana conservation while maintaining full dps
If that's true, it's really too bad. One of the hunter's core strengths is great burst DPS.

Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
I need to do more research, but for post-patch I'm changing from MM to BM and will be stacking leather agi/ap extensively. I'm almost ready to start believing that a BM in complete leather who FD+drinks
Ya, the leather is nicer for DPS no doubt. But remember that pets get 35% of your Armour, so leather is more of a trade-off than pre-2.1. I'll still be stacking lots of leather, but I'm not going to trash my mail.

Originally Posted by PhoR View Post
You're right that you won't get as much benefit out of Rapid fire if it pushes you below a speed that you can hold a rotation..
But you could simply switch to a slower weapon right before popping RF. (if you had that luxury)
Definitely a good idea in any burst phase like Curator. I need to test what happens when you swap bows mid-combat. Depending on how much it disrupts your shot-timer, this may be the way to use Rapid Fire properly as a BM.
#58SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
AugustusTirion
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I'm guessing BM is for low-latency hunters who are very good at twitch gameplay then? Since MM has a lot more wiggle-room for error. From what you posted above you're stating that the Gladiator Xbow would actually lose PVE dps in shot rotations over a longer duration, correct?
I'm inclined to say it's the other way around.

A MM Hunter would probably be using a Auto,Steady,Arcane/or/Multi,Auto,Steady style rotation.
With a 2.9 weapon and no haste beyond 15% for quiver, there is zero 'wiggle room' when you're putting 2 specials between autos.

The BM spec would only ever be putting 1 special between autos, and most of the time he'll have as much as a half sec of 'wiggle room'.

edit:
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
If that's true, it's really too bad. One of the hunter's core strengths is great burst DPS.
Matter of opinion, I suppose, but I tend to think of BM as the steady dps spec for Hunters.
Less reliance on crits, more on stacking AP and high shot speeds.

Last edited by AugustusTirion : 04/26/07 at 4:08 PM.
#59SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Harwin
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
The thing about Mark of Conquest is that you are attacking very fast with low mana shots. a 2.70 with iAotH hits every 0.906 seconds on average. At an average of 15mana per hit (based on 10% proc rate) that's over 80mp5. It's more mana than Aspect of the Viper. I'd definitely Go with the Broach as well, since it will go so nicely with TBW.
My understanding is that Mark of Conquest has a hidden cooldown timer of 19 seconds.

As BM, with a 2.6 speed bow and firing a shot (auto or steady) approximately every 1.95 seconds (ideally 1.88 but I've got some lag and I'm just spamming a macro rather than deal with the hassle of manually timing latency while also trying to watch my pet etc) I got about 31 mp/5 from Mark of Conquest. This was based on WWStats on a bugged Gruul kill, so it was pretty much a tank-n-spank.
#60SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I'm guessing BM is for low-latency hunters who are very good at twitch gameplay then? Since MM has a lot more wiggle-room for error. From what you posted above you're stating that the Gladiator Xbow would actually lose PVE dps in shot rotations over a longer duration, correct?
With BM, the X-bow is not very good. You don't shoot nearly as many steady shots. Rotations are all about designing good ones then finding the right bow to fit them.

Lag and wiggle room depends on your rotation and bow speed. I currently use a pretty intense MM rotation that I could never keep up without low lag and the /castsequence macros (yes, I use those). My BM rotation is going to be a lot easier. But it's nothing to do with the actual rotations themselves, it's how my bow fits into it.

My 3.00 clips my current rotation and it very tight, but that's because I should really be using a 3.10 or a 3.20. But I don't have any of those because I'm poor and lazy.

With a 2.70-2.30 and BM my future rotation will have good slack. But that's because there aren't any good 2.50 speed bows to choose from which would be ideal.

How tight the rotations are depends more on the bow itemization than the actual rotations.
#61SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Madscorl
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I recorded another and put it up on youtube, another perspective of complicated shot selection. Proc management and stuff. It was just a heroic Quag, I had bloodlust for a good chunk of the fight and I proced Improved Aspect of the Hawk a few times. It's certainly not my finest work but as you can see by the apparently spasming Orc in the middle of the screen a lot is going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abT2g-pIDY8

Edit: I died, he died and I ran out of mana at about the same time (1:30 into the fight) I was using a full burn priority queue with top rank spells.
I'd like to see more of this, It's not all that obvious which special you were using in between your autoshots. I wanna see the mob your damaging, and an swstats window for you dps, and group dps percentage. Then I could really make good use of that video as a comparison between MM and BM. Also, was your pet alive the whole fight? I assume you still have the original footage, maybe you could post another version of the vid.

Or maybe another BM hunter has some good footage of them dpsing a boss, or even just raid trash, I'd really like to take a look at exactly a BM hunter would do in game. This would be the best way for me to start comparing the dps differences of BM vs MM short of actually respecing and learning it myself.
#62SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Howitzer
It looks like he is just rotating Steady Shot and Auto Shot while managing the speeds of Quick Shot procs in between in addition to Bloodlust! Craziness, indeed. Seriously gonna try BM and come back with some SWStats and possibly WWS figures for you all.

Here's our most recent Fathom-Lord kill from last night with a 38/23 spec: http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070425-Karathress/
Then compared to Tidewalker, (where AOE is total king of course) http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070425-Tidewalker/

I'll post WWS results of these two fights next week with a 41/20/0 spec and see the difference. =)

Last edited by Howitzer : 04/26/07 at 4:29 PM.
#63SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Madscorl
I think he used Arcane shot and multishot too, but I really have to guess. I've got a BM version of myself on the test server, but there's no way I'd be able to take full advantage of Beast Mastery on my first attempt at it. So I'm looking for someone with plently of experience playing BM to show me a typical fight(boss fight, trash pulls, I don't care, just something so I can start to make some comparisons).

I personally don't like all the numbers people sometimes use to make the arguments for BM, maybe it's just because I'm a sceptic, but I'd much prefer either my own personal experience, or short of that, a visual representation of it to help persuade my own opinion.

Last edited by Madscorl : 04/26/07 at 6:00 PM. Reason: Appending thought
#64SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
If people are interested to see how BM hunters stand against other dps classes I can post my wws log from tonight, maybe you can take some conclusions out of that concerning rotations and pet usage.
It was a bad night btw, many deaths for nothing

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=mpizerirbwyta&m

Edit: Yes, the mage is bad...
#65SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Harwin
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
If people are interested to see how BM hunters stand against other dps classes I can post my wws log from tonight, maybe you can take some conclusions out of that concerning rotations and pet usage.
It was a bad night btw, many deaths for nothing

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=mpizerirbwyta&m

Edit: Yes, the mage is bad...
I decided to look at Shade since Curator and Netherspite have lots of things that cause your DPS to have high spikes.
Wow. I have to ask, what buffs group setup you're using.

Just looking at pet damage there's a weird disparity (and I'm BM too)
Sylvester had 29 non-crit hits for an average of about 434 damage.
Peerless (my cat) had 30 non-crit hits for an average of 237. This number is roughly the same across all 5 shade attempts (it was a bad night)

I was wearing some stamina gear, but not so you'd expect a disparity like that.
You're an orc, so you'd get some advantage there, but not that big.

I note you've got some elixirs up but the effect is much smaller on the pet.

Any ideas what could be causing such a huge buff? Does Windfury work on them?

(Your gear provides more DPS than mine but I have to make sacrifices for mp/5 because we have no shadow priest and I don't feel like chain chugging potions - but again this diff shouldn't be such a huge pet difference).
#66SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12alienangel
Having spent the last couple of months raiding with a BM hunter, I've been convinced of how amazing BM is for quite a while. It's not a question of him outdamaging MM hunters, he can outdamage the mages and rogues too, if we give him a shadowpriest and TSA. Granted the mages aren't at the 1100+ spellpower levels, but at 800-900 damage he is quite competitive. I can't comment how good our other DPS classes are compared to your guilds, but I'd like to think they're fairly good.

I've stayed MM however, since I'm partly too lazy to regear myself for BM (he stacks AP, and has nearly as much AP as I do with TSA, and since some recent upgrades to his gear equal/better hit and crit), and partly because I still like some MM features for the casual PvP I do. Also I never really wanted to be BM with Steelhawk, but I might try with the Gladiator's Xbow. Every time I've tried BM on a ptr, it's been without raid buffs, in my normal gear, and never felt satisfactory.

Howitzer, I'd expect your observation about BM being for low-latency high-FPS players to be true, but having seen fraps of Maelgwn play and noting how incredibly crappy his computer is, I don't think that's necessarily the case.

If you are speccing BM, my recommendations would be to pick up enough AP to be around 1900 RAP, before worrying too much about other stats. And know that every AP consumable you use is extra desirable, since it buffs your pet's DPS as well. Nag people to buff you and your pet, it's worth it.

The only utility downsides I see are:
i. likely no hawk eye, so things can be rough when pulling or finding a spot on gruul
ii. even more dependent on shadow priests, since mana expenditure in full burn is higher, and pet death is a bigger hit to DPS until you res it.
#67SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12alienangel
Originally Posted by Madscorl View Post
Or maybe another BM hunter has some good footage of them dpsing a boss, or even just raid trash, I'd really like to take a look at exactly a BM hunter would do in game. This would be the best way for me to start comparing the dps differences of BM vs MM short of actually respecing and learning it myself.
I probably shouldn't be posting other people's videos, but here's an old video of one of our BM hunters, also on Aran (good fight for pet DPS):

http://video.google.ca/url?docid=520...ioVSSow7lZLSAA

I don't know how useful it is for seeing what he's doing, I spaz out every time I watch it from how abysmal his FPS is. I've been bugging him to make a better one.
#68SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Madscorl
That's a start I guess, but I want to see some 25 man Raid footage of a BM hunter, I'm not interested in seeing the absolute best pulls of the night for that hunter either(people keep mentioning, "it was a bad night"), more of an average is better I wanna see how he works within the raid. SSC Trash is what I have in mind, even just one pull of trash, there's far more information for me in seeing how he starts and ends the dpsing of each mob than in wws logs, or in swstats meters.
#69SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Goreshot
Prior to going casual these past two weeks, I was BM for about three weeks (basically when I put up the post with my BM vs. MM damage testing on Dr. Boom, I didn't bother to spec back just to test out BM in actual raids). I easily took either the #1 or #2 spot for Hydross, Magtheridon, and Gruul when I had a Shadow Priest available. This, of course, includes pet damage in the total as well. I didn't stack any "non-mana" gear (i.e. leather); I wore what I have in my Armory for the most part. And yes, I still had to drink mana potions and use mana regen consumables to maintain my mana pool even with a Shadow Priest.

-----

I've done some very preliminary testing on the PTR in Blasted Lands with a 5/20/36 "raiding" build. The change to Kill Command is both a boon and a curse. You can't actually use it whenever you want primarily because you still can't cast it while casting Steady Shot, which means you only have roughly 50% (probably less) of your shot rotation time to actually hit the button. Also, it's not always on cooldown or available to hit during those moments, either. So if you refuse to put it in a macro (like me, because it never works properly and just screws up my timing), what you end up doing is mashing the button pretty much whenever you aren't casting Steady, which is a pretty big chore when you're trying to time your shots within the span of milliseconds. But while I found you really don't use it every 5 seconds, you do end up using it enough that it makes our mana issues even worse than they already are. Even with Mark of Conquest and the ~10% mana return I got from Thrill of the Hunt, I was running out of mana in roughly two minutes flat. I'd really hate to see how bad it is with other specs, where you have absolutely no mana returns from TotH.

Last edited by Goreshot : 04/27/07 at 4:36 AM.
#70SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
Originally Posted by Harwin View Post
Wow. I have to ask, what buffs group setup you're using.

Just looking at pet damage there's a weird disparity (and I'm BM too)
Sylvester had 29 non-crit hits for an average of about 434 damage.
Peerless (my cat) had 30 non-crit hits for an average of 237.

Well, if you are asking about the pet the answer is easy and more so its easy for everyone, because I dont "handle" the pets dps apart from the grouping.

As I said, I group with a warrior for the battle shout, with a melee shammy for bloodlust and his 10% AP buff, his agi and strength totem, and he also has something to increase nature damage, which I forgot about, but it seems to help my pets LB.
Normally I also have this feral druid in the group for 5% crit and some heals, but for Shade he switched to his warlock, so we had the easy mode with two warlocks on the elementals.

Adding all the multipliers a BM pet has, this sums up to some insane damage for the Pet.
This fight wasnt even 100% representative, because in the last minute Shade repositioned to the wall during a blizzard and my pet died, so there was some major dps lost.

As for the comment on "a bad night", that was only true for some members, not for me.

@Madscorl
Believe me, there is no way to do anything different on SSC trash then on just about any other trash. WWS has this nice feature, where you can pick any participant of any fight, lets say a trash mob and check his death. In his death view you see the last 30 seconds of combat log in that fight, which for trash mostly means its the full fight.
As in here:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...wyta&a=9&dth=7
In that place you get all the infos you need about what each player did.
In the near future the WWS guy will implement a complete combat log for each single player without the actions of other players. That will help a LOT to see exactly what other players are doing. Apart from that I dont think its possible to get anymore infos on any given fight.

For me WWS is the single best invention ever, because it shows every little mistake someone does in a raid. Not only dd's, but also tanks and healers. If hunters tell you they are doing everything they can and still have mediocre dps, you can just check out their logs. Have a look at their weapon speed, calculate how much shots have to be done in what time with that speed and check what they do instead. If people are playing with the blizz interface and miss about a second on each shot you got your 20-30% dps loss right there. And for the first time in 3 years now you can proove it.
#71SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Goreshot
To clarify, I reached my DPS without ever getting buffs for my pet beyond raid-wide buffs. Since I needed the Shadow Priest, I was almost always put in the healer/caster group instead. I'd imagine that if you tailor-made a group such that the BM hunter got a warrior, a feral druid, an enhancement shaman (dropping GoA, of course), and a shadow priest, you'd see some pretty crazy DPS. Of course, that would never happen.
#72SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
Originally Posted by Goreshot View Post
To clarify, I reached my DPS without ever getting buffs for my pet beyond raid-wide buffs. Since I needed the Shadow Priest, I was almost always put in the healer/caster group instead. I'd imagine that if you tailor-made a group such that the BM hunter got a warrior, a feral druid, an enhancement shaman (dropping GoA, of course), and a shadow priest, you'd see some pretty crazy DPS. Of course, that would never happen.
Exactly, you will never get the shadow priest in this group because it makes no sense. He doesnt benefit from anything but my 3% and I would be the only one to benefit from him. So SP's are always in the caster group for better synergies, and thats where I dont want to be, because I cant get all group buffs but only mana and that can be countered with pots.
#73SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Quick question on mana usage:

Last night I tried out BM for the first time (only Karazhan, so nothing too tricky in terms of pet handling) and I noticed that I was not really using that much mana. For example, whereas before on Prince (w/o a shadowpriest) I was chugging fel mana pots every cooldown, this time I only used 1.

My strategy was essentially to maintain the steady->auto rotation and just manage my cooldowns and haste procs without clipping (so I wasn't using arcane or multishot). I realize this is a low mana consumption rotation, but I'm not really seeing a huge benefit in wedging in a few arcanes for steadies throughout the fight, damage-wise. So my question is: why do I keep reading about BM being hard on mana? Am I doing something different/wrong?
#74SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
I disagree on putting a BM hunter in a shadow priest's group. You just don't benefit that much relative to other classes from a shadow priest. BM doesn't have the capability to burn through huge mana for huge damage relative to other classes. If you have a shadow priest, give the slot to a healer and ask them to throw the occasional hot on your pet. Keeping up mend pet constantly is a pretty big drain on your DPS.

I'd much rather be in the melee group, especially with Leader of the Pack. You are going to do much better stacking the raw damage. One of the reasons for this, is that a BM hunter has 2 strong characters that both benefit from group buffs. Rogues get 125AP from TSA, but BMs get 125RAP and 125AP on the pet. It's a very large buff to our group synergy since we essentially get twice the benefit from raid buffs.

On Gear:
I need to double check my math, so this is preliminary. The math leans more towards crit when compared to MM, but that could simply be because MM is very biased towards AP and I'm using numbers from my build with a very bad (15%) crit rate. Still it seems that BM leans towards AP compared to Blizzard's itemization costs. Does anyone have formulae for pet's AP especially how the pet damage modifiers affect it.

Originally Posted by Harwin View Post
My understanding is that Mark of Conquest has a hidden cooldown timer of 19 seconds.
What? Really?! But... I... I'm going to take my ball and go home now.
#75SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Rius
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=eyuf4mecsy3fe&m

Quick Summary:

Ignore the fact that the damage spread between me and the rest of the raid is so vast >.>

Last night's Prince kill, 892 dps over 5 minutes, 41/20/0. I potted up to simulate 2.1 level buffs; had on an elixir of major agility and a mana oil, and a flask of relentless assault to basically simulate the new hunter's mark. Had Leader of the Pack, prot tank Battleshout for my pet, kings/wisdom/might for myself, kings/might for my pet.

It was a pretty easy fight, tank/melee only had to shift once and only about 10 yards, same for the ranged/casters. Of particular interest are the mana returns from my Mark of Conquest, Blessing of Wisdom, and Judgement of Wisdom; if I ever am in a situation where JoWisdom has that much uptime again, I'll swap out of Mark of Conquest. I only Super Mana potted once, and I don't even think I would have needed too. Feels like I was a little lax on using Arcane Shot/Multishot/Scorpid Sting, so I think my dps and mana consumption could both have been higher.


Of course, Prince is a great-case scenario. I never have to move apart from dodging infernals, my pet can't get Enfeebled, and Prince doesn't really have any significant AoE. But this is a good example of how BM spec CAN produce good numbers,
#76SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
What are primary stats for BM? I understand that you may want AP instead of Agility and I know you can sacrifice Int gear for other stats. Or is that wrong way of thinking?

In general what is the gear I should consider for effective BM spec stat-wise?

PS.

Removed this question from another hunter thread as it belongs here.
#77SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Howitzer
OK! Here it is folks. Web Stats for Hydross kill, Lurker kill, (no pet really), and my 1st solid Vashj attempt in SSC as a BM hunter: (I respecced last night to test)

Hydross damage breakdown:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070426-Hydross/ (Yesterday as BM)
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070402-HydrossKill/ (Me last week as Marks spec)

Lurker damage breakdown: (actually this is w/o being able to use the pet on the boss only a little on the spawns and it is vs a full Marksman Hunter who I see as my equal or close to it)
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070426-Lurker/ (Yesterday as BM)
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070405-LurkerKillMerged/ (Me last week as Marks spec)

Lady Vashj best attempt:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070426-VashjTry2/

Sadly, I don't have totals for all night overall damage dealt including trash etc. Let me tell you guys a couple of things from what I have experienced so far from just 1 night of raiding as BM. First of all, holy shit was it fun. It took a lot more micro-management of the pet since I was always concerned that it stayed alive. I notice in WWS that it had a horrible miss rate of about 16% so I pumped in 2 points into Animal Handler which should definitely make a difference in raiding in the future. Our marks hunter, Mr. Archaos, was seriously depressed last night after seeing a BM hunter tear shit up. I can't begin to tell you how surprised I was and other people around me who laughed as I turned big and red only to then send me tells later saying "holy shit man, wtf?" because the meters showed some definite difference. On trash especially I was almost always #1 by quite a bit. This wasn't using flasks or anything.

I did request buffs from the paladins for BOK/BOM on the pet which I'm sure made a big difference. Overall, I am absolutely loving it so far. The pet is basically my DOT which can crit and go off way faster than a lock or sps DOT can. Hopefully the numbers up there shed some light on the difference between MM/BM and please don't take this as a "this is better or worse" post because it isn't. I'm simply someone who has seen a very different way to play the class and am enjoying it quite a bit so far. Ask anyone that knows me and they'll say "Howitzer would never go BM", well, that just changed.

Actually I'd like to thank all of you guys who replied to this thread mostly. The comments and insights here are exactly why I bother coming to this forum in the first place. Cheers.

Last edited by Howitzer : 04/27/07 at 11:44 AM.
#78SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Rius
Heh, I'm glad you enjoyed BM. I've been having a blast with it for the last few weeks; it's leaps and bounds different from 1.0 MM raiding. I wanted to ask, though, how can you get WWS reports to show pet's glancing rates?

Last edited by Rius : 04/27/07 at 11:45 AM. Reason: accidentally deleted the first half before posting o.O
#79SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
I'm glad to see your experience was a positive one. These should provide good data points, but I have a couple questions:
1) Can you post the build you used? Seems like BM raid specs are pretty much cookie cutter, but you discussed putting 2 points into animal handler (I have 1 in AH and couldn't find a way to squeeze another in without pulling 1 from SS).

2) Can you discuss the rotation you used? I tried out BM recently using only an auto->steady rotation and noticed a large increase in dps over MM, but I'd like to improve that if possible.

3) For reference, what were your stats while raid buffed?

4) It appears you're using an owl (screech shows up in WWS). Is there a reason NOT to use, say, a cat or WS (who may provide more damage while acting as an effective focus dump)?
#80SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Jezele
For some reason, the EU Armory times out on me every time I try to look at his talent spec. Would someone mind exporting his build to one of the various talent calculators? I'm also in the midst of making the MM->BM switch and I'm still playing with my options.

One of my questions relates to the importance of Mortal Shots for BM hunters. Slotting in a complete tier 2 set (I've only recently dusted off my hunter as I rerolled a shaman for the guild), dropping Mortal Shots is a loss of only about 30 DPS based on Cheeky's spreadsheet. Dropping it would allow taking both Beast Within and both points of Animal Handler (regaining about 10 DPS from a second point) along with the Hawkeye talent, which I've frankly grown used to over my years of MM playing. I'd also then be able to consider dropping Rapid Fire in favor of one of the Slaying talents (about 20 DPS increase for the particular racial class) or Catlike Reflexes.

Edit: Additional question - do we know yet what the glancing blow mechanics are being changed to? And just to confirm, bite/claw are not considered white damage, so can't be glancing blows?

Last edited by Jezele : 04/27/07 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Glancing Blow question added
#81SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Rius View Post
Heh, I'm glad you enjoyed BM. I've been having a blast with it for the last few weeks; it's leaps and bounds different from 1.0 MM raiding. I wanted to ask, though, how can you get WWS reports to show pet's glancing rates?
I'm not sure about that, mate. You can login Turalyon horde and talk to Kuya. He is our WWS guy.
#82SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Howitzer
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I'm glad to see your experience was a positive one. These should provide good data points, but I have a couple questions:
1) Can you post the build you used? Seems like BM raid specs are pretty much cookie cutter, but you discussed putting 2 points into animal handler (I have 1 in AH and couldn't find a way to squeeze another in without pulling 1 from SS).

2) Can you discuss the rotation you used? I tried out BM recently using only an auto->steady rotation and noticed a large increase in dps over MM, but I'd like to improve that if possible.

3) For reference, what were your stats while raid buffed?

4) It appears you're using an owl (screech shows up in WWS). Is there a reason NOT to use, say, a cat or WS (who may provide more damage while acting as an effective focus dump)?
My profile: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...yon&n=Howitzer

I found that using Multi-Shot on single targets was no longer desirable whatsoever since I wasn't marks. I did, however, use it when bloodlust was up and rapid fire and quick shots procced because holy damn autoshot itself was like a machine gun. So basically I'd squeeze off instant cast shots whenever they were up.

As far as spec, I removed 1 point from Frenzy because with 80% chance it was almost always active. I took the points out of Spirit Bond because it was less than impressive, let me explain...

Over the course of a 10 minute boss fight the spirit bond talent gave my pet roughly 8000 hit points. This is not exactly acceptable or even warrants the spending of 2 points into it. I am almost always grouped with a shadow priest that can heal that amount back to the pet 50x faster and if really necessary I will pull the pet back and mend it or bandage it. I decided instead to put the points into Handler which is basically a 4% boost in damage since it will miss less.

Using the Sunfury Bow I had no problem managing Serpent's Swiftness WITH the Quick Shots procs and weaving Steady / Auto with the occasional Arcane in between. I was not starving for mana so I wasn't too conscious on shot use or mana consumption at all. The one thing I have to get used to is not using multi shot on single targets. (Thats what I get for being MM for forever.) =) Also Effeciency vs Improved Hunter's Mark. I came to the conclusion that the 110 AP for the pet was not as important as it was for me to maintain my mana pool for constant steady shots because of long fights as a raider. Even with a Shadow priest it CAN become taxing on your mana pool eventually. Therefore, I chose to go with 5/5 Effeciency.

Raid buffed stats when I popped a flask, had elixir of major agi, onslaught, ravager dog, bom / bok / motw / etc. I had about 2800 RAP with about 26% crit and hit rating at about 136.

The other thing someone mentioned above was the importance of Mortal Shots vs Hawk Eye. In my opinion, the lack of 6 yards is noticeable, however, I would not even consider ANY build whether it be BM/MM/SURV without the inclusion of Mortal shots at max rank. It is absolutely a must.

Why did you use an Owl? Because I didn't have a cat trained. I had a wolf, owl from Sekketh halls, and a wind serpent. I didn't bring the wind serpent because Hydross is immune to nature damage on the nature phase. I didn't take the wolf because it's DPS isn't as high as the owl. But, I assure you, I now have a Cat. I might even level up a ravager when I have more free time.

Last edited by Howitzer : 04/27/07 at 12:16 PM.
#83SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Bhoris
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
OK! Here it is folks. Web Stats for Hydross kill, Lurker kill, (no pet really), and my 1st solid Vashj attempt in SSC as a BM hunter: (I respecced last night to test)

Hydross damage breakdown:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070426-Hydross/ (Yesterday as BM)
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070402-HydrossKill/ (Me last week as Marks spec)

Lurker damage breakdown: (actually this is w/o being able to use the pet on the boss only a little on the spawns and it is vs a full Marksman Hunter who I see as my equal or close to it)
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070426-Lurker/ (Yesterday as BM)
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070405-LurkerKillMerged/ (Me last week as Marks spec)

Lady Vashj best attempt:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070426-VashjTry2/

Sadly, I don't have totals for all night overall damage dealt including trash etc. Let me tell you guys a couple of things from what I have experienced so far from just 1 night of raiding as BM. First of all, holy shit was it fun. It took a lot more micro-management of the pet since I was always concerned that it stayed alive. I notice in WWS that it had a horrible miss rate of about 16% so I pumped in 2 points into Animal Handler which should definitely make a difference in raiding in the future. Our marks hunter, Mr. Archaos, was seriously depressed last night after seeing a BM hunter tear shit up. I can't begin to tell you how surprised I was and other people around me who laughed as I turned big and red only to then send me tells later saying "holy shit man, wtf?" because the meters showed some definite difference. On trash especially I was almost always #1 by quite a bit. This wasn't using flasks or anything.

I did request buffs from the paladins for BOK/BOM on the pet which I'm sure made a big difference. Overall, I am absolutely loving it so far. The pet is basically my DOT which can crit and go off way faster than a lock or sps DOT can. Hopefully the numbers up there shed some light on the difference between MM/BM and please don't take this as a "this is better or worse" post because it isn't. I'm simply someone who has seen a very different way to play the class and am enjoying it quite a bit so far. Ask anyone that knows me and they'll say "Howitzer would never go BM", well, that just changed.

Actually I'd like to thank all of you guys who replied to this thread mostly. The comments and insights here are exactly why I bother coming to this forum in the first place. Cheers.

Interesting, but the numbers on the Hydross kill as MM really worry me.

For starters, how do you have more steady shots than auto shots? Also, it only shows a recorded 16 arcane shots and 11 multi shots. Judging from your other posts I think it's safe to assume that your normal cycles are much better than that, so you might want to check to see whether or not your information was recorded correctly for that.

Also, even a MM hunter can have his pet out, so you're only hurting yourself by not having it out when you were MM in that fight.

Last edited by Bhoris : 04/27/07 at 12:20 PM.
#84SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Bazazu
In Howitzer's defense, thing's were a bit crazy on that Hydross kill. For the past few weeks we had been using the 80 > dead Nature tanking strat, this was our first night that we switched over to the way he is "supposed to be done". I'm sure it took a lot of adjustment by everyone, and with him switching specs, and strats, he may have been trying to watch other things and not give his full attention to his shot rotation, etc.
#85SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Auto+steady and the casual arcane shots when moving around and the casual max rank multi-shots to burn your mana when you know that you're not going to run oom.
#86SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
Interesting, but the numbers on the Hydross kill as MM really worry me.

For starters, how do you have more steady shots than auto shots? Also, it only shows a recorded 16 arcane shots and 11 multi shots. Judging from your other posts I think it's safe to assume that your normal cycles are much better than that, so you might want to check to see whether or not your information was recorded correctly for that.

Also, even a MM hunter can have his pet out, so you're only hurting yourself by not having it out when you were MM in that fight.
I think the MM Hydross isn't as accurate because I was running around keeping NR aura up for the MT. I was also not with an SP that night and couldn't use anything but SS really due to mana use.
#87SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
I'm actually too interested to test out BM, now. Was just thinking if Wrathtide Longbow is better than Wolfslayer for the good old auto/steady castsequence. Should be 2.22 speed with BM spec and if Lootwalker gun is 2.26 and it's the best" weapon speed I'd imagine Wrathtide performing pretty well.

Then again, fuck it. I have over 10k gold I'll just spec BM and go to spend some time testing dps with both in Blasted Lands. :p

One thing actually, 4 or 5 points in frenzy? Could imagine 4 in next patch with CR but havent found the theorycraft bit myself for pre 2.1 :/
#88SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I'm actually too interested to test out BM, now. Was just thinking if Wrathtide Longbow is better than Wolfslayer for the good old auto/steady castsequence. Should be 2.22 speed with BM spec and if Lootwalker gun is 2.26 and it's the best" weapon speed I'd imagine Wrathtide performing pretty well.

Then again, fuck it. I have over 10k gold I'll just spec BM and go to spend some time testing dps with both in Blasted Lands. :p

One thing actually, 4 or 5 points in frenzy? Could imagine 4 in next patch with CR but havent found the theorycraft bit myself for pre 2.1 :/
I copied Polina's spec and changed it a little bit to get improved revive since I found it quite useful. I really believe animal handler is a must esp if you raid often. 4/5 Frenzy worked great for me.
#89SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Quasi
Originally Posted by Rius View Post
Heh, I'm glad you enjoyed BM. I've been having a blast with it for the last few weeks; it's leaps and bounds different from 1.0 MM raiding. I wanted to ask, though, how can you get WWS reports to show pet's glancing rates?
WWS has gone through a few updates to include pet damage and respective glancing rates.
Make sure to assign each hunter pet an owner. I usually "auto update" actors and manually look to see if there are any new pets or raid members that are not in my table. WWS is usually pretty good at catching the pet's owner, but if not you can manually select it from the drop down menu.

Hope that helps.
#90SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Daenerys
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I copied Polina's spec and changed it a little bit to get improved revive since I found it quite useful. I really believe animal handler is a must esp if you raid often. 4/5 Frenzy worked great for me.
Good call on 4/5 Frenzy. I think I'll change that in my build as well. Which I guess would make it exactly the same as your build. =P

I'm glad you finally pulled the trigger and tried out BM. I was shocked when I first raided with it a week ago as well, and I'm really enjoying it. Your reactions (and those of your guildies) in the thread towards the top of page 4 are very similar to mine. I have the Mage and 'lock class leaders saying "nerf BM" in officer chat all the time now!

Edit - Our builds won't be the same since I have 5/5 Imp Mark. I like this for my pet of course, but the reason I take it is for the raid. If I can give 110 more AP to 5 or so melee DPSers, it's worth it to drink another mana pot during a boss fight.
#91SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Kuya, you never updated the Hydross merge! ><
#92SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Testing with http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=mxbh0xgRwuVoVxbRV now

I prefer spirit bond over increased health tbh. :P
#93SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Valkyrus
If you are raiding there is very little reason for going with Armor over improved revive.

Imp revive is extremely handy when your pet dies, and with the changed to cleave in 2.1 the armor will really only benefit you if you are soloing/5mans.

More health, however, will definitely help you out more in raiding.

Spirit bond I do like and I wish I could fit it in when I spec BM. My guild has one semi-active shadow priest and thats it. When he's on he is with mages, not hunters.
But 8k over 10 minutes is really pretty piss poor =(
#94SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I found that using Multi-Shot on single targets was no longer desirable whatsoever since I wasn't marks. I did, however, use it when bloodlust was up and rapid fire and quick shots procced because holy damn autoshot itself was like a machine gun. So basically I'd squeeze off instant cast shots whenever they were up.
I just wanted to clarify this part a little bit. Are you saying when you get bloodlust/rapid fire/quickshots stacked you STOP casting steady shot and just cast auto/arcane/ms, or you replace your steadies with arcanes and MS when they come off of CD? What I've been doing so far when I get my attack speed down to ~1.0 with stacked haste is just spam the everloving hell out of my steady key and try to keep up with my autos. Usually I clip a few, but I also fit a lot of steadies in, too.
#95SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Valkyrus it's mainly because it's not 2.1 yet.

I'll be switching the points to imp revive when patch hits.
#96SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I just wanted to clarify this part a little bit. Are you saying when you get bloodlust/rapid fire/quickshots stacked you STOP casting steady shot and just cast auto/arcane/ms, or you replace your steadies with arcanes and MS when they come off of CD? What I've been doing so far when I get my attack speed down to ~1.0 with stacked haste is just spam the everloving hell out of my steady key and try to keep up with my autos. Usually I clip a few, but I also fit a lot of steadies in, too.
I just stopped casting steady because I was clipping Autoshots left and right. So in its place I was using arcanes and multis instead until the haste effects became manageable again for proper rotations.
#97SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Rokh
Just respecced BM, almost did last night while reading this thread, definatly did after seeing those numbers, Howitzer. Thanks for the info.

What kinda rotation were you using in SSC last night? 2 Steadies, 1 Arcane, 3 Steadies w/ any haste?
#98SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
So, what kind of pet do you guys think is best for raiding as a BM hunter? Please also say why you think it is the best (skills/stat modifiers/etc.)
Also, will you be putting points in (the new 2.1) imp mend pet?
#99SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
I still haven't seen anything that has really convinced me BM is so great, though I'm not foolish enough to doubt its potential. I think it also has a lot to do with the player and how they want to play it. I don't imagine BM being nearly as strong as Marks in 5v5, but it'd be amazing in 2v2 (which is fun but not where you really go after your points). I've also always been a stickler for focusing on myself and watching my 3 bars to perfect my rotation/cycle.

I think what is nice, is Blizz is really trying to make all three trees viable in raiding situations. There will be one that stands out as the strongest, but all 3 will be viable. The only thing that sucks is that our itemization is by no means geared towards allowing the three different specs (ie not strong swing towards int, crit rating, or agi). It's starting to look more and more like those "druid" leather pieces with 15 of every single stat, then ap and +spell dmg. They need to give us options according to our spec.
#100SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
I did make a post similar to what you're saying in regards to different types of tiered sets for hunters since the 3 trees require different types of stat allocations. I put the post in the "Top questions and concerns on 2.1 PTR" thread. (Who knows if the devs even care to read it?)

Anyways, you're very right in that it doesn't matter what damn spec you are as long as you really understand your class, come prepared, and know how to play well. If you can do all that any way you spec will shine. This thread was specifically aimed at 25 man raiding as a BM spec which isn't really discussed much. You'll see BM hunters rant and rave all over the place on "I'm #1 dps", then you see they run 5 mans and their guild is stuck on Curator... That isn't a very credible source of information.

I'll keep posting my WWS results in the coming weeks to give some comparisons on DPS over boss fights and trash and let people come up to their own conclusions. I'm not going to shove anything down anyone's throat, (unless its Bazz's *wink*).
#101SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
Here are the stats from last nights HKM/Gruul kill and first night of attempts on Mag. I am spec'd 0/31/30. I hope to post soon a comparison night of raiding where I am BM to show how BM works at my gear level (below howitzer's by a significant amount). As you can see I was #2 behind a mage, maybe BM will make me #1?
#102SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12lilwolfe
Great thread so far. I was BM for the first part of TBC and a few runs into Kara. Once I moved to Gruuls and Heroics, I went for MM with enough in survival for imp trap durations. This is making me itchy to go back and work on BM though.

First thing I'd like to do though, is run some of my own practice tests on Dr. Boom so I can solidify my shot rotation now as it stands. That leads me to the big question. What mod should I be using to track my dps? My hits vs misses, % of actual crit and all that? I have SW Stats for the raid, but am looking for something that will focus on my own personal stats. And will it track the 'dps' I see hunters talking about where they say 'I pushed 800 dps on <whatever>'? (And what is that dps anyway? I assume its actual dps, including crits, and haste effects and the like, and not just the paperdoll assumed dps)
#103SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Great thread so far. I was BM for the first part of TBC and a few runs into Kara. Once I moved to Gruuls and Heroics, I went for MM with enough in survival for imp trap durations. This is making me itchy to go back and work on BM though.

First thing I'd like to do though, is run some of my own practice tests on Dr. Boom so I can solidify my shot rotation now as it stands. That leads me to the big question. What mod should I be using to track my dps? My hits vs misses, % of actual crit and all that? I have SW Stats for the raid, but am looking for something that will focus on my own personal stats. And will it track the 'dps' I see hunters talking about where they say 'I pushed 800 dps on <whatever>'? (And what is that dps anyway? I assume its actual dps, including crits, and haste effects and the like, and not just the paperdoll assumed dps)
I'd get an autoshot cast bar mod and use FuBar_DPS to show your DPS during fights as well. SW Stats can show you a breakdown of your shot rotations as you do them and you can even start up your own WWS combat log each time to show you a true breakdown of absolutely everything everyone does in a raid. Its a very nice tool to keep helping you improve yourself.

As far as shot rotations go, its really something that I believe shouldn't be set in stone. Situations in fights change dynamically all the time and you have to fluidly adapt your shot choices on the fly without even thinking to max your dps. If you're constantly counting in your head: "ok now I need to cast this after 3 of these", you're already in the hole imo.
#104SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
As far as shot rotations go, its really something that I believe shouldn't be set in stone. Situations in fights change dynamically all the time and you have to fluidly adapt your shot choices on the fly without even thinking to max your dps. If you're constantly counting in your head: "ok now I need to cast this after 3 of these", you're already in the hole imo.
IMO this is the big problem with hunters in TBC. I have been trying to explain this to the other hunters in my guild but they want a set rotation that they can always follow. This ideology sets apart mediocre hunters and great hunters (at least imo.)
#105SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12lilwolfe
Thanks Howitzer !

My dps in raids has been alright so far, but I am not convinced I've mastered things since the mechanic change and TBC. I want to do better than I am. My biggest problem is that I'm new to these forums and I was fed hunter forums garbage for a while. So the Dr.Boom test is just so I can practice on the different things I've read about here.

Currently, I use multi, arcane, steady, with auto's between, and the priority going to multi and arcane when they are up. Last night, Mmm. Had feral druid and shadow priest in my group for Gruuls and that made me so happy. (And the pants dropped for me yay!) But yeah, I wanna see what I'm doing and see if I'm doing the right thing. :p
#106SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
IMO this is the big problem with hunters in TBC. I have been trying to explain this to the other hunters in my guild but they want a set rotation that they can always follow. This ideology sets apart mediocre hunters and great hunters (at least imo.)
Completely agreed. People are too used to the aimed shot rotations of old, and just haven't learned to adjust. Being a good hunter now requires a lot of intuition and just the ability to judge the situation for yourself, and understand how to best time your shots.

I used 3 bars. My autoshot cast bar (Big Trouble = best in the world), ECB with a lag meter to gauge my steadys, and then of course Kharthurs to track my stings (scorpid on boss fights) and cooldowns. That's me though, I'm very technical. Another guild member who is an excellent hunter judges his shots based on the sound of his bow. He listens and recognizes the audio queues and uses that to judge when to shoot his next shot. I can do the the same just by watching my bars or watching the animation of the bow.

All that basically means is that to be a good hunter now, you have to learn your hunter. Any set rotation or whatever will just screw you up. And for those hunters using /castsequence macros, shame. They're a crutch that hold people back and in all honesty do no allow for your maximum potential because they lack the judgment that we often have to use in timing our shots.
#107SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Did some testing tonight..

Stuff used:

Major mageblood, blessing of wisdom and 2x mana oils

Also a few judgements which I managed to beg from my brother who is watching tv. :p

Wouldnt worry about mana to much, didnt go oom at all and played safe so chugged fel mana pots as well.

No dps consumables / blessings were used on me or pet. Used vendor arrows for both tests.

Results with Wolfslayer (28 crit rating): http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=6yxnrwlzh3tm3&a=0

Results with Wrathtide (10 dmg):
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=fpa2bv2ckbtt3&a=0

Got a bit higher crit rate on the go with Wrathtide and procs are fairly even. One thing to note was that Wrathtide obviously used a lot less mana which is pretty good. Dunno which one I'd use in raids though..

Think I had a little bit higher average latency on the test with Wrathide (read: 50 -> 75 maybe)

Dunno, maybe Sunfury would be the way to go because of the weapon dps and higher stats if it ever drops.

Still not sure whether to go survival or BM though, roughly the same dps on both after you take in account the glancing blows and misses. BM might be a tiny bit more dps but pet can always die etc, so its hard choice.

I might just try both after the patch and see which one I enjoy more and then make my choice.

Hope thise tests help you guys a bit. =)

Oh, http://armory.wow-europe.com/#charac...ie+Peak&n=Osse .
#108SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12lilwolfe
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
Completely agreed. People are too used to the aimed shot rotations of old, and just haven't learned to adjust. Being a good hunter now requires a lot of intuition and just the ability to judge the situation for yourself, and understand how to best time your shots.

I used 3 bars. My autoshot cast bar (Big Trouble = best in the world), ECB with a lag meter to gauge my steadys, and then of course Kharthurs to track my stings (scorpid on boss fights) and cooldowns. That's me though, I'm very technical. Another guild member who is an excellent hunter judges his shots based on the sound of his bow. He listens and recognizes the audio queues and uses that to judge when to shoot his next shot. I can do the the same just by watching my bars or watching the animation of the bow.

All that basically means is that to be a good hunter now, you have to learn your hunter. Any set rotation or whatever will just screw you up. And for those hunters using /castsequence macros, shame. They're a crutch that hold people back and in all honesty do no allow for your maximum potential because they lack the judgment that we often have to use in timing our shots.
Point taken. But it leaves me a little confused also. If you dont have some kind of rotation or plan, dps plunges, but if you stick to it too rigidly, dps also plunges. Obviously, hunters need to do more than just afk-autoshoot (and you can tell them easily when you look at meters) so, my next question is, what tips can you offer to figure it all out? When you speak of learning to best time your shots, and which ones, what factors go into making that decision?

And I'm pretty sure I base my shot timing off my bow sound, like your friend, because if my sound glitches, I completely freak out because I feel like I am driving without all four wheels.
#109SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Point taken. But it leaves me a little confused also. If you dont have some kind of rotation or plan, dps plunges, but if you stick to it too rigidly, dps also plunges. Obviously, hunters need to do more than just afk-autoshoot (and you can tell them easily when you look at meters) so, my next question is, what tips can you offer to figure it all out? When you speak of learning to best time your shots, and which ones, what factors go into making that decision?

And I'm pretty sure I base my shot timing off my bow sound, like your friend, because if my sound glitches, I completely freak out because I feel like I am driving without all four wheels.
Yeah, obviously you have to have some time of shot plan. My auto shot timer has tenths of seconds on the timer, but after a while, you more learn to judge your shots by just the appearance of the cast bar and don't really have to look at your actual time on the shot.

I always open with a multi, arcane, auto, steady. After that, it's just fluid. Steady if you're at the beginning of a bar with no instant up. If you have a 1 sec cooldown on an instant, go ahead and try to string a steady. The number one thing I have against /castsequence macros besides the fact that they're lazy is that they will not fire a steady no matter what if it will interfere with your next auto. If I've got 1.3 seconds before my next auto shot, I don't mind losing .2 seconds to string in an steady for an extra 650 or so dmg.

Multi shot always takes precedence in my cycles because it is the strongest shot. It's also best to try and fit both your instants in between the same auto shot if you can (this obviously won't happen every time, but when the timing is right, do it). One of the biggest things is considering sever lag for your steady shots. You actually should start casting your steady about .2 o.3 seconds before your auto shot fires (depending on your latency) to maximize your efficiency. As I said, I'm sure you could map out all my shots and see the pattern, but I don't go by that. Over time, you just develop your own cycles and it feels natural.

I mentioned Big Trouble earlier also. Here is a link to it:

http://www.wowinterface.com/download...igTrouble.html

It is honestly the best auto shot timer I've encountered. I customize it , place it over my cast bar, and have it display only my auto shot cast bar.
#110SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
I use Big Trouble as well.
#111SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
I've switched Little Trouble (same developer) mod, from zhunter mod. I use chronometer for stings but I am not familiar with ECB or Kharthurs.

Next patch I have noticed that timer mods are almost obsolete as there are timers that show up over the debuff on your target.
#112SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Tazrach
Great thread, inspiring stuff and real food for thought. I am very tempted to try a BM build out but I still dont have a handle on gear stat priority. If someone could have a look at my profile and give me pointer or two where slots can be improved that would be great.

I am currently 0/31/30 with 750 odd agi, 1977 RAP and 29.xx% crit. last Gruul kill the WWS report had me at 748 DPS without a flask but with Agi/Fel Str and a major mageblood. Compared to other DPS classes in my guild I hold my own and earn my slot, but if there is a better DPS option out there I am willing to give it a try.

What can i say Howitzer has inspired me.

Taz
#113SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Tazrach View Post
Great thread, inspiring stuff and real food for thought. I am very tempted to try a BM build out but I still dont have a handle on gear stat priority. If someone could have a look at my profile and give me pointer or two where slots can be improved that would be great.

I am currently 0/31/30 with 750 odd agi, 1977 RAP and 29.xx% crit. last Gruul kill the WWS report had me at 748 DPS without a flask but with Agi/Fel Str and a major mageblood. Compared to other DPS classes in my guild I hold my own and earn my slot, but if there is a better DPS option out there I am willing to give it a try.

What can i say Howitzer has inspired me.

Taz
Right on dude! I've always been a firm believer in challenging yourself in every aspect of an MMO since UO in 1997. No different here, really. I'm really liking this "newbwithin" spec so far and I'll come back with more WWS results next week. Either way, its a very new spin on raiding as a hunter and quite a welcome change. One can only hope it gets that much better come patch day.
#114SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Optimized
Does anyone know which is better for melee, 125 AP or 3% damage. Say you had 2 *gasp* BM hunters in a raid. You could put one with the casters and one with the melee. Would the melee group benefit more from TSA or FI?
#115SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Top notch gear in 2.1 patch = EW > FI > TSA

Well, FI maybe highest if your dpsers are doing close to 1000 dps but EW is still the highest total dps.
#116SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Top notch gear in 2.1 patch = EW > FI > TSA

Well, FI maybe highest if your dpsers are doing close to 1000 dps but EW is still the highest total dps.
I think that's highly dependent on raid composition. If you're only running 1 heavy melee group EW and TSA are both have reduced usefulness. The biggest advantage EW has over FI is that it's a raid-wide buff, so it helps everyone without respect to group position. However, it's a bit of an oversimplification to simply say EW is always better than FI is always better than TSA.

I also want to put up my results from a swap to BM. I don't have a direct comparison from my time as MM for the same fight, but I'll provide them for comparison (if anyone cares). Unfortunately my guild is still clearing Karazhan and Gruul for gear, although hopefully we'll attempt and down Magtheridon soon. Consequently I don't have any reports from "real" 25 man content, but I'll through my anecdotal evidence into the BM pile.

Karazhan (BM spec - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=mtbM0xgRquVoVVbRV)
(it's a full run, click through the reports to see different encounters - notice the drop in damage on Aran when my pet dies)
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=khcqxwltovjz3&a=60

Karazhan (MM spec - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VZVVbRqzhest0Ghbxc)
(this is the second day of a two day run)
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=xcfyks1osn5io&a=70
#117SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Dont forget tanks and pets for EW.
#118SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Goldengiff
Been reading up on going BM, since i'm tired of chugging 20g worth of pots on raid bosses to keep up my 650dps MM spec. Couple things from this thread are bugging me tho.

1. According to the rogues in my guild, their white damage is 50% of their total damage. TSA = 125AP = 8.9dps. Double that to account for specials, and you get ~18dps for rogues from TSA. So at 600dps and less, 125AP > 3% damage increase, assuming FI is always up. Most rogues can get above that easily, so in general FI > TSA.

2. Unless you are using a very fast weapon, and therefore have a smaller average weapon damage, there is no reason to not use multi-shot to maxamize dps when BM spec. SS is a lot more mana efficient, but you can compensate for that by using mana pots, Fel mana pots, or bugging your raid leader until you get a shadow priest in your group.

I know it's rediculously long now, but anyone who is serious about hunter dps should read the Hunter Mechanics -- v2.0 thread, found here Hunter Mechanics -- v2.0/TBC.

Cheers
Rudolph~
#119SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Because of the global cooldown multi-shot is really not the effort especially without efficiency. Rather go to group with shaman, warrior and druid than shadowpriest and do that 10-15 dps more by weaving multi as BM.
#120SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Goldengiff
My multi-shot does 298.9 more damage then a steady shot. That's ~200dps more by using that one multi shot over a steady shot. Seems worth the mana, even if you don't have a shadow priest in your group feeding you mana. At worst you can use multi at the begining of the fight and if you end up getting low, like under 20% mana, you can remove it from your rotation and conserve mana.

Also, being in a group with a feral druid is highly unlikely for any boss. Most guilds run 1 feral druid in raids for tanking purposes, and if he is tanking, he's not going to be in the dps group with a warrior rogue hunter and shaman. There is no reason why you can't be in a SP group with a shaman as well, since you increase the damage of all your party members which in the case of the SP results in more mana for the group as a whole. The only other class that buffs SP dps by being in the same group is a caster with Atiesh.

5% crit from LotP is ~40dps (assuming you have mortal shots). A SP doing 900dps, which is not unreasonable for a good player with good gear, will return to each party member 225mp5. That's equivilent to 157dps if you use all of that mana during the fight, which is a little tough to do. Add to that mana returned the heals via Vampiric Embrace, which for a 900dps SP would be 1125hp5. A BM pet should have around 7-9k HP, so a SP could heal your pet from the brink of death to full life in ~30-45sec. SP is the way to go.

Cheers
Rudolph~
#121SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Once you show me WWS of auto/steady for over 5 mins and then auto/steady/multi then I might actually believe that.
#122SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Goldengiff View Post
My multi-shot does 298.9 more damage then a steady shot. That's ~200dps more by using that one multi shot over a steady shot. Seems worth the mana, even if you don't have a shadow priest in your group feeding you mana. At worst you can use multi at the begining of the fight and if you end up getting low, like under 20% mana, you can remove it from your rotation and conserve mana.

Also, being in a group with a feral druid is highly unlikely for any boss. Most guilds run 1 feral druid in raids for tanking purposes, and if he is tanking, he's not going to be in the dps group with a warrior rogue hunter and shaman. There is no reason why you can't be in a SP group with a shaman as well, since you increase the damage of all your party members which in the case of the SP results in more mana for the group as a whole. The only other class that buffs SP dps by being in the same group is a caster with Atiesh.

5% crit from LotP is ~40dps (assuming you have mortal shots). A SP doing 900dps, which is not unreasonable for a good player with good gear, will return to each party member 225mp5. That's equivilent to 157dps if you use all of that mana during the fight, which is a little tough to do. Add to that mana returned the heals via Vampiric Embrace, which for a 900dps SP would be 1125hp5. A BM pet should have around 7-9k HP, so a SP could heal your pet from the brink of death to full life in ~30-45sec. SP is the way to go.

Cheers
Rudolph~
I totally agree with Gold here. The SP is pure MONEY for a BM hunter. I don't have to worry about healing my pet, I don't have to worry about my mana, either. Its straight up more DPS over a long fight because I can go all out non stop.
#123SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
So, after all this talk I want to try BM for raiding (I leveled BM and did a ton of 5 mans that way.) Will I be disappointed if I try it before 2.1? Are the changes in 2.1 going to make that much of a difference in the dps (other than keeping my pet alive.)


BTW Goldengiff: My guild loves feral tanks so on fights they are not needed they go kitty and are in melee groups. If I get lucky I am grouped with them or a s-priest (if not then I am with 3 holy priest and a pally.) But, it is not uncommon (at least for my guild, which I like to think of normal(ish)) to be with a feral druid.

Yet another aside, how ofter do you other hunters get to be with a s-priest? 50%? 75% of the time? How often are you with at least one other player that helps your dps (shaman with mana totem and GoA, feral druid or s-priest)? I just want to know how much I should be bugging my raid leader. =p
#124SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Just shot about 100 times with steady and auto on rats and the difference was 175. Using Wrathtide and the 37 dps arrows. Still not worth the lost time on steady shot cast time or mana cost.
#125SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Goldengiff
@Bigblue: You're lucky man. Our guild only has one feral druid worth mentioning and he's out MT so he's always in the "MT group". So, no dps from him. If we had another good feral druid then we might give him to melee, but we only ever run 3 rogues max, only have 2 hunters, and only 2 serious dps warriors (arena MS spec doesn't count). An ideal group for a BM hunter would be hunter, feral druid, MM hunter, SP, and shaman, but that would never happen :P

@osse: it deffinatly depends on the weapon you use. Sunfury bow is 2.9, wrathtide is 3.0, both are better for using multi-shot. What you aren't factoring in is the fact that altho haste will make the cast time of Steady less then 1.5sec, nothing except Heroism will lower your GCD. So you are still only shooting 1 Steady every 1.5sec. Haste doesn't increase your Steady DPS, unless it's counteracting latency issues, which everyone has to some extent. The ONLY reason you would use steady over multi is if you have a fast enough bow that it actually does less damage then steady or if you are having mana issues.
#126SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Lodi
bm spec and non-orcs

5% pet damage seems like quite a lot. Let's say, 1-2% higher personal damage when BM speced, more after kill command change?

Silly as it may be, I'm less inclined to spec BM as a non-orc. I tried BM a while back and hated it for 5v5.

I'd like to see racial talent (and priest spell) respecs Of course, the most ridiculous in raiding is Tauren MT.
#127SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Just do WWS with both cycles Goldengiff and impress me. :/
#128SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12ishichin
OSSE!
I love your posts they always make me want to work hard on my hunter seeing how good a well geared and played one performs.

Anyways on to some other things. First of all im only a 67 hunter and play very little, and have little time to test, so this is just theorycraft which is probably wrong.

I believe you are using bows that are too fast. I believe the whole point of BM is the increased speed so you get more steady shots off. The following list is made assuming about 1950 rap and 25% crit the average damage from auto and steady are gotten from cheaky's spreadsheet.

Weapon- Auto Damage- Steady Damage- Time for rotation- DPS
wrathtide longbow- 1006.44- 1001.73- 2.1739- 923.7637426
sunfury bow of the pheonix- 995.6- 1023.69- 2.1014- 960.926049
wlofslayer sniper rifle- 914.3- 1010.67- 1.9565- 983.8844876
don santos rifle- 919.61- 1015.96- 1.9565- 989.3023256
scorchwood bow- 685.63- 934.91- 1.5942- 1016.522394
mamas insurance- 695.47- 947.74- 1.59942- 1027.378675
wrathfire hand cannon- 653.8- 978.04- 1.586956- 1028.283078

Im assuming the rotation is one steady plus one auto so thats the auto shot time or the time to cast a steady plus .5 seconds for auto which ever one is longer. Now i know some of these bows take perfect timing and like no latency but just posting what im working on now.
Now unless im completely wrong somewhere its funny how the green bows do better then the epics. Also the wrathfire hand cannon has a crazy dps considering the fact that you are actually cliping autoshots on it.

anyways just posting this for some reactions or to find out were i did something wrong.


Bah wish i knew how to post a table to make this clearer.
#129SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
 Grogzor
Next patch will you consider putting 2 points into Improved Mend Pet over Bestial Discipline? It just seems it would be nicer with making you as a hunter A) More Self Reliant and B) Less mana intensive. Even considering you have a shadow priest 100% of the time?

It just seems that Bestial Discipline + GFTT is a bit much even when spamming screech every time.

Last edited by Grogzor : 04/27/07 at 11:43 PM. Reason: Added some.
#130SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by ishichin View Post
OSSE!
I love your posts they always make me want to work hard on my hunter seeing how good a well geared and played one performs.

Anyways on to some other things. First of all im only a 67 hunter and play very little, and have little time to test, so this is just theorycraft which is probably wrong.

I believe you are using bows that are too fast. I believe the whole point of BM is the increased speed so you get more steady shots off. The following list is made assuming about 1950 rap and 25% crit the average damage from auto and steady are gotten from cheaky's spreadsheet.

Weapon- Auto Damage- Steady Damage- Time for rotation- DPS
wrathtide longbow- 1006.44- 1001.73- 2.1739- 923.7637426
sunfury bow of the pheonix- 995.6- 1023.69- 2.1014- 960.926049
wlofslayer sniper rifle- 914.3- 1010.67- 1.9565- 983.8844876
don santos rifle- 919.61- 1015.96- 1.9565- 989.3023256
scorchwood bow- 685.63- 934.91- 1.5942- 1016.522394
mamas insurance- 695.47- 947.74- 1.59942- 1027.378675
wrathfire hand cannon- 653.8- 978.04- 1.586956- 1028.283078

Im assuming the rotation is one steady plus one auto so thats the auto shot time or the time to cast a steady plus .5 seconds for auto which ever one is longer. Now i know some of these bows take perfect timing and like no latency but just posting what im working on now.
Now unless im completely wrong somewhere its funny how the green bows do better then the epics. Also the wrathfire hand cannon has a crazy dps considering the fact that you are actually cliping autoshots on it.

anyways just posting this for some reactions or to find out were i did something wrong.


Bah wish i knew how to post a table to make this clearer.
Be careful when using weapons that do not allow for any lag to be absorbed by the inherent delays int he rotation. My spreadsheet (Cheeky, not cheaky) is intended to be used to compare talents/gear/strategies. Unless you have some very specific information for a lot of values (mob armor, reaction time, lag, etc.) you don't see real-world numbers exactly like what the equations turn out. DPS from super-fast bows is one of its biggest holes.

The next version (out after 2.1, since it has been modified for the changes in the next patch) will have the ability to specify a lag/reaction time that gets added to the start of every user-initiated cast. Just putting a .1-.25 second delay in with those super fast bows cripples the DPS numbers you are seeing now. Whereas the slower, epic-quality bows handle the delays with little loss to DPS.

I do agree that BM's strength is to allow a Hunter to use the slower, more powerful bows available in the raids and maintain a simple auto/special rotation. Of course, I am still holding out hope that Blizzard will finally come to a clean solution for the problem of weapon speed being of much greater importance to Hunters than base weapon DPS.

Also, try using the tags [ code ] and [ /code ] (no spaces, of course) to have the section of text formatted in a fixed size font, allowing you to have clean columns.

looks like
      this
#131SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
ishichin
Thanks for the reply
I just used your spreadsheet to find the average damage for each shot not for the dps value.

And yes i know some of those numbers require perfect conditions.

To see the effect of lag on the rotation, lets use the wrathfire hand cannon
the average auto damage from you spreadsheet was 653.8
the average steady damage was 978.04
for a total of 1631.84
so the dps would be that divede by the time to cast a steady plus auto, so
1.5/((1.2)*(1.15))+.5 +lag
Lag DPS
0 1028.283078
.05 996.8746869
.1 967.3281342
.15 939.4826351
.2 913.1954004
.25 888.3391872

which makes it better then the wrathfire longbow for up to .15 seconds of lag (im not sure the average latency and reaction time of hunter so im not sure if this is good.)
I believe Osse said he has like 50 ms latency which would still leave him .1 seconds to get his shot off which im assuming is enough.

When i get up in the morning ill run some numbers on some more weapons, the barrelblade longrifle looks really nice. Ill look at the skyfire hawk bow, splintermark, felsteel broomstick, and consortium blaster. Those were the only ones that seemed like they would be worth looking at ill check their dps with different lag levels too and post my findings.

Last edited by ishichin : 04/28/07 at 12:58 AM.
#132SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
It seems slower weapons will always be more forgiving of lag. It's scary that a 1/4 second lag + reaction time with that weapon costs you roughly 20% of your DPS. That's huge.

Even with 50 ms latency I imagine Osse still has a .1 - .2 second delay from reaction time and latency. (Not sure how much gaming keyboards with spamming macros make up for this.)

I am (as a MM Hunter) frustrated with not being able to get a high-DPS 2.4-2.5s bow. My latency and reaction times make 2x special between autos a very dicey situation. Part of my personal reasoning for switching to BM is to keep things simple for myself.

Ishichin, I apologize if I came off harsh at all, reading my post now I'm not sure I struck the tone I intended to. I do hope the spreadsheet is useful to you, and feel free to offer any suggestions you have.
#133SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Sienna
DPS test in PTR

I tried dps on blasted lands with pure steady-auto rotation on 18/43 build, recap captured for 5 minutes shooting, I used mp5 flask to keep it up and super mana pots, 782 dps on me, 190 dps on pet, so almost 1000 dps without any buffs, although pets do quite high damage in blasted lands due to no misses. But in any case this was only auto-steady rotation reaching almost 1000 dps on 16.58% mitigation which is a bit lower than the standard mitigation on bosses without COR.

I had 80-100 ms in PTR.

Then I tried with 41/20 build. With steady auto rotation I did 889 dps and pet did 250 dps, recap captured for 4:27. 1139 compared to 972 on MM build.

Edit: Ran another test for 4 minutes, this time recap captured 782 dps on me. I don't know if recap is bugged in PTR but 100 dps difference between 2 tries seems quite weird.

Edit: A third test for 5 minutes showed 266 dps for pet and 864 for me.

Edit: Tried in MM build a rotation which shoots arcane right after steady and before auto whenever it's ready to go, suprisingly that rotation did less dps than auto-steady only rotation.


After 5 hours of trying different rotations, the best one turned out to be BM build with steady + auto + KC. Hunter dps going up to 870 over 5 minutes with just using mp5 flask. The amazing thing was pet dps going up to 320 with spamming KC. I remind that this is an unbuffed pet. Pets with battleshout+kings+might usually do 100 dps higher than unbuffed pets. Although this is a lvl 52 mob, so dodges/parries are minimum but in any case, this rotation turned out to be the most easily managable one with using castsequence for steady/auto and timing KC right after steady cast finishes and the most damaging one. 1186 dps against a mob with 20% mitigation over 5 minutes without buffs.

(Not to mention pet's growl ability was selected for not grabbing aggro every 20 seconds, meaning lots of energy was being spent on growl which will go to Lightning Breath in a raid)
#134SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12ishichin
Your not coming off harsh at all, like i said i have very little in game experience so i expect to revise my thoughts on input from others.

playing with excel i came up with the following conclusion in the middle of the night so ill have to check my self later.
The best BM weapons are as follows.
0-latency - mama's insurance
.05-latency - consortium blaster
.1-latency - consortium blaster
.15-latency - consortium blaster
.2-latency - barrel-blade longrifle (with two +16ap gems)
.25-latency - barrel-blade longrifle (with two +16ap gems)
.3-latency - barrel-blade longrifle (with two +16ap gems)
.35-latency - don santo's famous hunting rifle
.4-latency - don santo's famous hunting rifle
.45-latency - sunfury bow of the pheonix
.5-latency - sunfury bow of the pheonix

i just realized none of this is accounting improved aspect of the hawk
and i also think i missed some epic weapons from raids that ill look up later
#135SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Osse
Hmm.. 1.77 attack speed with Consortium Blaster, suppose I can give it a go although it'll use buttloads of mana. :p

Oh and not sure if I said it yet but the tests I did were on live servers, dps will go up quite a bit with the new stuff. ^^

Last edited by Osse : 04/28/07 at 8:02 AM.
#136SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Ok, Consortium Blaster with no scope using the same buffs as before. no dps consumables, only mana. mana oils, vendor bullets etc.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=cggmtwseklybe&a=0

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=w4lfkiz3exzvk&a=0

Both with same gun, ~75ms, had two clients open and somehow managed to bug judgement of wisdom on the mob as you can see lol.

That would be close to average raid ms though so I'll stick to the Wrathtide it seems. And put 28 crit rating on it so steady shot actually benefits from the scope so dps will be even higher. :|

Shame really, I like the Consortium gun graphics.

ps. my arms hurt after making sure that I wont clip anything when rapid fire or quick shots were up.
#137SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
ishichin
Ya that list was assuming no improved aspect of the hawk or rapid fire. I believe you would be cliping a lot of auto shots with improved aspect of the hawk being up like half the time. Maybe you have been using the right speed all along :P. You use to have a don santons famous hunting rifle. If you could i would love to see that test since it should account for procs and rapid fire plus average out to be like 100ap gain.

Last edited by ishichin : 04/28/07 at 12:51 PM.
#138SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Does it not have hidden cooldown?
#139SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12ishichin
i thought i read about people getting reprocs so i thought there was no cooldown.
#140SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post


Karazhan (BM spec - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=mtbM0xgRquVoVVbRV)
(it's a full run, click through the reports to see different encounters - notice the drop in damage on Aran when my pet dies)
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=khcqxwltovjz3&a=60
First of all, omg, you were raiding for 7 hours?
Secondly, just a short question. You were obviously using your Pet on Maiden. Was that because you had so little melees and it was ok or did I miss a change and the pet is not chaining anymore?
#141SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
First of all, omg, you were raiding for 7 hours?
Secondly, just a short question. You were obviously using your Pet on Maiden. Was that because you had so little melees and it was ok or did I miss a change and the pet is not chaining anymore?
1) Yes, we normally do Karazhan in two days because we swap people in and out alot (which takes time) but this week we transferred, which reset our raid IDs. So we did karazhan twice and gruul twice, and we had to cram karazhan into a single night (which, again, we normally don't do).
2) I'm not sure. I'm looking at the maiden fight now (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=5&s=4685,4817) and from the looks of it, my pet WAS taking more holy damage than just the consecration. Presumably it was also chaining Holy Wrath. However, when I look at Maiden's damage out(http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4685,4817&a=28) I see she only had 6 holy wrath hits. Considering we had 2 warriors and a Druid in melee range in addition to my pet, I'd say we probably got lucky with the chaining. I seem to remember Alcaras standing on top of my pet , so there was a triangle between the him/pet, other warrior, and druid. I would guess that any chaining of holy wrath occured only between Alcaras and my pet, if my recollection of events is correct.

Short version: I think pets chain on Maiden. I don't specifically recall if my pet was hit by holy wrath, but from the looks of things I think it was.
#142SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Redpath
Originally Posted by Grogzor View Post
Next patch will you consider putting 2 points into Improved Mend Pet over Bestial Discipline? It just seems it would be nicer with making you as a hunter A) More Self Reliant and B) Less mana intensive. Even considering you have a shadow priest 100% of the time?

It just seems that Bestial Discipline + GFTT is a bit much even when spamming screech every time.
Typically after taking Intimidation/Discipline I have 2 pts left to get to the next tier, which I dump into Endurance. If I wanted Imp. Mend I would probably dump those 2 points in there instead.
#143SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
Sorry I was gone for a while, missed the requests for the full video. I actually trashed the source after I cropped out the piece with me in it. I'll record and post a few more during this week.

Far as specials go, I was using max rank everything cool downs permitting. Steady shots most of the time, slotting multis and arcanes as possible. Burned all my mana in 80 seconds, did about 66800 damage in that time period so a bit over 800 dps from my ranged attacks.

I should be running a bunch of heroics this week and I'll see what kinda vids I can get.

Edit: Oh and I got a bunch of PMs about my cast bars. Like others have mentioned I use LittleTrouble for my autoshot timer. I use eCastingBar for my cast bar and played with the sizes/transparencies till I could drag the main eCastingBar over LittleTrouble and the result is what you saw.
#144SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Optimized
I was wondering if we could have some discussion as to what the optimal pet is. I see some people using owls in WWS, I assume for the utility of the buff. Would a windserpent or ravager be better and if so which one? One reason I ask is that I am excited by what I read here about BM but want to make sure I have the best pet available. If that requires me to level a Ravager I want to take that into consideration before I respec.
#145SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Optimized View Post
I was wondering if we could have some discussion as to what the optimal pet is. I see some people using owls in WWS, I assume for the utility of the buff. Would a windserpent or ravager be better and if so which one? One reason I ask is that I am excited by what I read here about BM but want to make sure I have the best pet available. If that requires me to level a Ravager I want to take that into consideration before I respec.
I've been using Cheeky's spreadsheet to calculate available focus per second for abilities. With my cat I'm seeing a slight excess of focus on average (spamming both Bite and Claw; with bestial discipline and GFTT @ 20% to crit). Modeling a Windserpent, I'm not getting enough focus to maintain LB spam. Theoretically, according to the spreadsheet, I gain approximately 11 dps by going with my cat (not to mention that I don't have to deal with the stupid caster pathing). With a ravager I'm using focus at about the same rate as with my cat, but gore is less effective at turning focus into damage than claw.

As far as I'm concerned, the modeling puts cats ahead of wind serpents and ravagers. Now, if you have an enhancement shaman from whom you windserpent can steal SS charges, it probably would put out more damage. Then again, that doesn't seem like a very good plan.

For reference, the special attack numbers the spreadsheet returned @20% to crit were
Cat (spamming claw 9 bite 9) ===106.12 DPS
Ravager (spamming gore 9 bite 9) ===85.66 DPS
Windserpent (spamming LB 6) ===94.25 DPS

Granted this is theoretical, but given the theoretical disparity between a windserpent and cat, the annoying caster pathing of the windserpent, and the ready availability of level 70 cats (in skettis) for taming, I'd say go with a cat if you have the choice.
#146SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Rokh
All this talk of latency, shot rotations, ect, I have enough arena points to pick up the Gladiator's Xbow Tuesday, just wondering if any BM hunters have this and if working out a rotation similar to a Marks Auto->Special->Special->Auto->Special->Repeat with the slower 3.2 Xbow would work out?

Do any BM hunters use this, or are aspiring to get it? I'm using Sunfury right now, and seems with two haste effects active, like many others have stated in this post, it's not worth Steady Shotting, just Auto->Arcane/Multi/KC..
#147SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12AndrewCarr
Maybe the theorycrafters could help you more with this, but with 200ms ping or so I don't remember being able to get two specials in between autos without delaying an auto.
#148SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12helias126
Originally Posted by Rokh View Post
All this talk of latency, shot rotations, ect, I have enough arena points to pick up the Gladiator's Xbow Tuesday, just wondering if any BM hunters have this and if working out a rotation similar to a Marks Auto->Special->Special->Auto->Special->Repeat with the slower 3.2 Xbow would work out?

Do any BM hunters use this, or are aspiring to get it? I'm using Sunfury right now, and seems with two haste effects active, like many others have stated in this post, it's not worth Steady Shotting, just Auto->Arcane/Multi/KC..
Marks Auto->Special->Special->Auto rotation cannot be done with any spec or any bow currently in game afaik.
GCD is 1.5s for all shots.
#149SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
For reference, the special attack numbers the spreadsheet returned @20% to crit were
Cat (spamming claw 9 bite 9) ===106.12 DPS
Ravager (spamming gore 9 bite 9) ===85.66 DPS
Windserpent (spamming LB 6) ===94.25 DPS
Does this take into account the fact that Claw and Bite are not spammable?
Surely if you've taken Go for the throat, having a pet with the ability to dump focus fast is your primary concern.
#150SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Shandara
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Does this take into account the fact that Claw and Bite are not spammable?
Surely if you've taken Go for the throat, having a pet with the ability to dump focus fast is your primary concern.
Only Bite is not spammable. I did think Gore was slightly better though, because of the 50% damage increase chance.
#151SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Breakerone
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
1) Yes, we normally do Karazhan in two days because we swap people in and out alot (which takes time) but this week we transferred, which reset our raid IDs. So we did karazhan twice and gruul twice, and we had to cram karazhan into a single night (which, again, we normally don't do).
2) I'm not sure. I'm looking at the maiden fight now (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=5&s=4685,4817) and from the looks of it, my pet WAS taking more holy damage than just the consecration. Presumably it was also chaining Holy Wrath. However, when I look at Maiden's damage out(http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4685,4817&a=28) I see she only had 6 holy wrath hits. Considering we had 2 warriors and a Druid in melee range in addition to my pet, I'd say we probably got lucky with the chaining. I seem to remember Alcaras standing on top of my pet , so there was a triangle between the him/pet, other warrior, and druid. I would guess that any chaining of holy wrath occured only between Alcaras and my pet, if my recollection of events is correct.

Short version: I think pets chain on Maiden. I don't specifically recall if my pet was hit by holy wrath, but from the looks of things I think it was.

Actually I'm a bit confused now. The name of the chained spell for the melee range is Holy Wrath, right?

Cause with the neat new feature of WWS, which lets you check out the full combat log
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4685,4817&bl=0

I only saw the wrath hit your warrior one time. All the other times it hit ranged classes, like your mages and priests, and I cant see any chaining whatsoever. So maybe this is either not really displayed correctly or it was completely changed.

On the Curator for example everything is plain to see. The spawning Flares hit 2 warriors and your pet each time they spawn.

Edit: Whats even funnier, I just checked a 3 week old log from us and it was the same. 90% of holy wrath goes to ranged casters. Strange, or I'm missing something...
The only damage done to the other melees is repentance and holy ground, and I guess thats her aura.

Edit2: Reading up on a guide it seems holy wrath has been random all the time and not only meant for melee. It just causes bigger problems if it hits a melee, but neither in yours not in my log did I see a moment where 2 people where hit.

Edit3: ok, now its all clear. It is random target damage and it chains just perfectly. I just had a look at our log from last week and we had 4 melees in. The wrath hit the first one for 2068, the second for 2771, the third for 3407 and the fourth for 5595.

If my pet would have been in there, someone would have died in that moment, so sadly I'll have to keep it out. The only thing that has me wondering is, why no one received chain hits when your warrior got hit by wrath.

Last edited by Breakerone : 04/30/07 at 7:43 AM.
#152SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Greenpiggy
Indeed - I don't understand this either:

Gore works out(modelling in the double damage 50% chance) at 25 focus for 73.5 damage
Claw works out as 25 focus for 65 damage

Therefore Ravager > Cat seeing as both have a +10% modifier

Am i missing something?
#153SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
I have to add one thing to this rotation discussion and the lags. On my server I mostly use a castsequence macro for steady/auto with the Steelhawk Xbox. As a BM my autospeed is 2.01 so there is a LOT of space for the steady which should be hasted to around 1.1 cast speed and I very rarely clobber my autoshot.

Now I was playing on the test server and sadly cant say what the latency was, because I have a complete custom ui.
But the point is, even when I was mashing the button like crazy there was almost not ONE single autoshot that was not clobbered by at least +0.1 and often +0.3.

So I imagine latency was not great on the PTR, but since many people play with a bad latency that really shows its a big dps hit in the end and I imagine MM hunter who try to fit in 2 specials between an autoshot have just about 0 chance to do so without perfect latency.
#154SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Gore (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Instant
Gores the enemy, causing 37 to 61 damage. This attack has a 50% chance to inflict double damage.

37+61 / 2 = 49
49x1.5 = 73.5

73.5 / 25 = 2.94


Claw (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Claw the enemy, causing 54 to 76 damage.

54+76 / 2 = 65
65/25 = 2.6

So yeah, I dont understand how claw is better either. :|

Heh, funny that I'm leveling an owl to 70 before 2.1 hits and they add lvl 70 ravagers. 63 -> 70 is too much for me for 0.32 dmg per focus for a few weeks.
#155SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Greenpiggy
Well i'm usually sitting at about 300-400ms on the PTR.
The impact of that is doubly bad given that the client will not allow another shot to fire until it has confirmation that the previous one has cast.
The effect of that being that if you are trying to follow steady with a special, you then have to wait double the lag time to actually fire that special(minus haste taken off steady shot)
Beastmastery alleviates the issue somewhat as you are only waiting on a client delay in order to fire the autoshot rather than a server check.
#156SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Gore (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Instant
Gores the enemy, causing 37 to 61 damage. This attack has a 50% chance to inflict double damage.

37+61 / 2 = 49
49x1.5 = 73.5

73.5 / 25 = 2.94


Claw (Rank 9)
25 Focus 5 yd range
Claw the enemy, causing 54 to 76 damage.

54+76 / 2 = 65
65/25 = 2.6

So yeah, I dont understand how claw is better either. :|

Heh, funny that I'm leveling an owl to 70 before 2.1 hits and they add lvl 70 ravagers. 63 -> 70 is too much for me for 0.32 dmg per focus for a few weeks.
I hadn't worked it out by hand, I had only been using the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is returning different numbers than your calculations; my guess is that Cheeky's sheet is not correctly calculating the possibility of 50% extra damage on Gore - I'll check this when I get home. Based on the numbers you posted it would appear Gore is superior, however.

As far as the use of the term "spamming" I only meant it with respect to having autocast on for my pet. I don't know how the pet cast priority system works, but my guess is that it casts whatever ability costs the most focus (given that the pet has enough focus to cast this).

As far as the model goes, from all appearances Cheeky's sheet works out focus per second based on ability usage and compares this with focus per second provided from talents / GFTT (based on crit rate) to determine how often an ability will be cast. Given that the focus per second usage on claw and bite (or Gore and Bite, for a ravager) is somewhat lower a cat is able to cast them more often than a windserpent can cast lightning breath, yielding a higher damage return. Presumably. I haven't dug into the spreadsheet's guts very much, nor am I inclined to do so; you can ask him how he models it if you need more information (I could be totally wrong about how it works, so keep that in mind). Empirical testing at this point probably would be both more accurate and useful.
#157SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Greenpiggy
Hmm,

I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.

I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.
#158SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Daenerys
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Hmm,

I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.

I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.
Here's my LB stats from yesterday:
Hits Avg Max    Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist% 
414  203 376    60    309 467 11%   10.1% 3.2%
You're clearly looking at more damage per focus, but as to whether that outdoes 3% melee damage, I can't say.
#159SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
More BM Raiding Input:

Last night we were in Tempest Keep trying out Astromancer for the first time and I have a few things to say about Beast Mastery in regards to TK up to this point... First, the pets are quite prone to death, (really fast death), if you're not paying attention. Certain mobs WW quite a bit and AOE damage on some of the casters in there is also a sure death if you're not fast to react. I assume this kind of shit will cease to happen or be way more friendly with the changes in 2.1. We'll see...

Having said that... If you can manage your pet's HP you can put out disgusting sustained DPS on the trash mobs and even on the boss fights. I was pushing 1300+ dps on the boss very consistently and peaking out at 1500+ on bursts. Needless to say, I could not pull off this kind of "SUSTAINED" DPS with the other 2 talent trees. Now I realize that full MM has some really sweet burst in PVP, etc. However, I'm speaking from a PVE point of view only at this point.

The screenshot here shows some numbers, (I won't post WWS results for Astromancer at this point), to give you an idea of what's possible when full potted, etc etc.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/117/1300eb7.jpg

click picture twice to maximize the size. Pic is 1680x1050.
#160SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/117/1300eb7.jpg

click picture twice to maximize the size. Pic is 1680x1050.
Offtopic, but for some time now I try to get this addon which shows you the name of the shot next to the damage. People said its sct, but I cant get it done.
Is it sct? And if yes, what option do I have to use?
#161SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
Here's my LB stats from yesterday:
Hits Avg Max    Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist% 
414  203 376    60    309 467 11%   10.1% 3.2%
You're clearly looking at more damage per focus, but as to whether that outdoes 3% melee damage, I can't say.
I don't think this is the issue at hand, however. LB does do more damage per focus, but the time between casts (unless you get a crit streak or generally have a high crit rate) is somewhat longer than the time between claws. Keep in mind that although we tend to model abilities as continuous (for example, damage per mana) they are actually discrete (correct me if I'm wrong). Because abilties are discrete they won't act as perfectly as you model them - which is why the lower cost (i.e. higher granularity) of claw/gore MIGHT mean higher damage output than LB, but I couldn't say with any certainty without more testing.
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Hmm,

I don't really understand how you come up with differences in focus/s
That should be exactly the same for both cat and Ravager, so in theory, gore being slightly higher damage is the only difference whatsoever in those two pets.

I haven't checked out what Lightning Breath hits for post-nerf but I imagine the only point in taking it is as an incredibly fast focus dump for when you hit a critstreak.
Just depends whether that factor outweighs the 7% vs 10% disadvantage that a windserpent has.
I think you misinterpreted my last post, I didn't mean to imply there is a difference between gore and claw in terms of focus per second, but rather that claw and gore are the same but BOTH are different from lightning breath.
#162SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I hadn't worked it out by hand, I had only been using the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet is returning different numbers than your calculations; my guess is that Cheeky's sheet is not correctly calculating the possibility of 50% extra damage on Gore - I'll check this when I get home. Based on the numbers you posted it would appear Gore is superior, however.

As far as the use of the term "spamming" I only meant it with respect to having autocast on for my pet. I don't know how the pet cast priority system works, but my guess is that it casts whatever ability costs the most focus (given that the pet has enough focus to cast this).

As far as the model goes, from all appearances Cheeky's sheet works out focus per second based on ability usage and compares this with focus per second provided from talents / GFTT (based on crit rate) to determine how often an ability will be cast. Given that the focus per second usage on claw and bite (or Gore and Bite, for a ravager) is somewhat lower a cat is able to cast them more often than a windserpent can cast lightning breath, yielding a higher damage return. Presumably. I haven't dug into the spreadsheet's guts very much, nor am I inclined to do so; you can ask him how he models it if you need more information (I could be totally wrong about how it works, so keep that in mind). Empirical testing at this point probably would be both more accurate and useful.
There is a bug in the current version on Gore. I completely left out the 150% damage adjustment to account for the double damage 50% of the time thing. I also added in a 5% dodge chance for melee attacks. I have no idea what to put for mob parry or block, so those are still unaccounted for.

I also had some mis-alignment in the Damage per Focus calculations, they were not factoring in the damage after adjustments from crit, Unleashed Fury, etc.

Your summary of the way I model pet special attacks is pretty much spot-on. The entire pet DPS section is still a work in progress as I get more in-game confimation of the numbers. If anyone has any ideas on what I can do to improve accuracy I am all ears.

Here is the DPF (Damage per Focus) using the correct math for Gore, and a non-BM Hunter:
Bite 9             : 4.13
Claw 9             : 3.13
Gore 9             : 3.54
Furious Howl 4     : 2.17 (Hunter and pet effected only.)
Lightning Breath 6 : 2.84
As you can see, Gore is only second to Bite in terms of effiency, and Ravagers will most likely be slightly out-damaging cats. Once you can get a level 70 Ravager I'll probably grab one.

I currently do not have any +spell damage added into Lightning Breath from Hunter RAP. Does anyone know for sure what the ratio is now? Also how do we compute the chance for Lightning Breath to critically hit, is it pet Int based? (I can't wait to tell the mages to AI my pet each time I rez him. )
#163SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
Hits Avg Max    Crits Avg Max Crit% Miss% Resist% 
414  203 376    60    309 467 11%   10.1% 3.2%
What is your spec?
The numbers take on a whole new meaning if we factor in unleashed fury and pet happiness.

Last edited by Greenpiggy : 05/01/07 at 4:53 AM.
#164SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
There is a bug in the current version on Gore. I completely left out the 150% damage adjustment to account for the double damage 50% of the time thing. I also added in a 5% dodge chance for melee attacks. I have no idea what to put for mob parry or block, so those are still unaccounted for.

I also had some mis-alignment in the Damage per Focus calculations, they were not factoring in the damage after adjustments from crit, Unleashed Fury, etc.

Your summary of the way I model pet special attacks is pretty much spot-on. The entire pet DPS section is still a work in progress as I get more in-game confimation of the numbers. If anyone has any ideas on what I can do to improve accuracy I am all ears.

Here is the DPF (Damage per Focus) using the correct math for Gore, and a non-BM Hunter:
Bite 9             : 4.13
Claw 9             : 3.13
Gore 9             : 3.54
Furious Howl 4     : 2.17 (Hunter and pet effected only.)
Lightning Breath 6 : 2.84
As you can see, Gore is only second to Bite in terms of effiency, and Ravagers will most likely be slightly out-damaging cats. Once you can get a level 70 Ravager I'll probably grab one.

I currently do not have any +spell damage added into Lightning Breath from Hunter RAP. Does anyone know for sure what the ratio is now? Also how do we compute the chance for Lightning Breath to critically hit, is it pet Int based? (I can't wait to tell the mages to AI my pet each time I rez him. )
Thanks for the update on the state of the spreadsheet - it was probably irresponsible of me to present that information for modeling if the sheet wasn't complete yet (my fault there). I don't currently have a windserpent, but I might be able to run some tests when I get home (tame one and play around with it). If nothing else I should be able to tell if AI has ANY effect on LB crit chance. For my own reference, is there a stat that effects pet melee chance that the community is aware of?
#165SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Offtopic, but for some time now I try to get this addon which shows you the name of the shot next to the damage. People said its sct, but I cant get it done.
Is it sct? And if yes, what option do I have to use?
Its called MIK's combat log. It used to be an ACE2 mod but for some reason it was removed. You can find it on curse gaming.
#166SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Optimized
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Heh, funny that I'm leveling an owl to 70 before 2.1 hits and they add lvl 70 ravagers. 63 -> 70 is too much for me for 0.32 dmg per focus for a few weeks.
Do I understand correctly that they are adding level 70 ravagers in 2.1? If so where will they be?
#167SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Its called MIK's combat log. It used to be an ACE2 mod but for some reason it was removed. You can find it on curse gaming.
Thanks a lot. A WWS log would really help to understand why you did so much damage, though
#168SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
Originally Posted by Optimized View Post
Do I understand correctly that they are adding level 70 ravagers in 2.1? If so where will they be?
I have heard this mentioned before but the only ravager I know that is being added to the "tameable" list is level 61.
#169SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Jezele
I've been going back and forth, trying to decide between BM and MM for my raiding spec. I want to be able to provide the maximum DPS possible to my group, but because I enjoy the playstyle a bit more, I'd prefer to go MM if it's not significantly inferior to BM. I've been doing some theorycrafting comparisons and figured that I'd pass them along.

For my calculations, I assumed 500 Agi, 250 Int, 1000 AP from gear, 130 crit, 120 hit, 32 DPS ammo, and a 77.4 DPS, 2.9 speed weapon (I approximated these based on Howitzer's gear, figuring it'd be a good representation of typical raiding gear). I did not include consumables (my guild tends not to use them as we're semi-casual), but did include Kings, Might, Mark of the Wild, and Arcane Brilliance. Pet DPS values are based on Cheeky's spreadsheet calculations and I used a steady-shot rotation for BM and a steady-shot/multi-shot replacement rotation for MM.

41/20 BM: 2183 RAP, 1077 hunter DPS, 380 pet DPS, 1457 total DPS
7/49+ MM: 2727 RAP, 1106 hunter DPS, 215 pet DPS, 1321 total DPS

Clearly, BM is a better choice with this particular gear set, and by a fairly significant margin (over 10%). However, if I were to use the same numbers, but with a 2.4 speed bow (the current "ideal" speed for MM builds), the 7/49 build would provide a total DPS of 1441 - very similar to the BM values. What this says to me is that BM is not inherently better for raiding than MM (which is what my gut was telling me), but because of the current ranged weapon itemization (the best 2.4 speed weapon is only 66.3 DPS while most of the epic weapons are around BM's 2.8/2.9 ideal), BM is currently able to produce better results (especially with MM's conflict of wanting faster weapons for the ideal steady-shot rotation, but losing multi-shot DPS in the process).

Still not sure what I'm going to make of this as I get my hunter closer to raidworthiness, but I think it's clear that if my goal is max DPS and there are no changes to ranged weapon itemization (at least in the ranges attainable by my guild currently), BM will be the choice I'll need to make.

Originally Posted by Cheeky
The entire pet DPS section is still a work in progress as I get more in-game confimation of the numbers. If anyone has any ideas on what I can do to improve accuracy I am all ears.
Adding in glancing blows for base damage would help with the accruacy, although it's not a huge effect (skipping it inflates overall pet DPS by about 5%). I approximated with 25% based on reported rates.
#170SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by Jezele View Post
What this says to me is that BM is not inherently better for raiding than MM (which is what my gut was telling me), but because of the current ranged weapon itemization (the best 2.4 speed weapon is only 66.3 DPS while most of the epic weapons are around BM's 2.8/2.9 ideal), BM is currently able to produce better results (especially with MM's conflict of wanting faster weapons for the ideal steady-shot rotation, but losing multi-shot DPS in the process).
I whole-heartedly agree with this. By making every ranged epic weapon in the 2.7-2.9s speed you depress the DPS of MM Hunters who cannot hit 2 specials between autos due to latency. Because of Serpent's Swiftness there are always going to be a portion of Hunters who want slow bows and a portion who want fast bows. With the infinite amounf of daggers available as raid loot, it shouldn't be too hard to add in a slightly faster bow/gun here or there...

Originally Posted by Jezele View Post
Adding in glancing blows for base damage would help with the accruacy, although it's not a huge effect (skipping it inflates overall pet DPS by about 5%). I approximated with 25% based on reported rates.
The in-progress version has glancing blows modeled at the 2.0 rates on all normal melee (i.e. white damage) attacks. Against a level 73 boss it works out as a 26% DPS decrease to that damage only. I have also added in Cobra Reflexes in anticipation of the next patch.

The only remaining information I need to feel good about where pet DPS is at is:
1) Lightning Breath +damage from RAP ratio
2) New glancing blow rates and damage reduction
#171SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12woburn
Someone earlier was asking why some hunters have an aversion towards BM spec. The problem for me isn't that it's "more micromanagement" although that is true. It's that the BM spec simply isn't fun. It is entirely autoshot dependant spec. With auto accounting for 40-50% of your personal damage output. This is a video game with make believe goals and rewards, so like many others the only true reward is pride. Winning at the damage meters, having your ingame name be synonymous with being known as a good player, etc.. Having my character simply autoshot himself onto the damage meters is embarrassing for me. It's also frustrating to depend on a pet friendly encounter for you to truly achieve your full DPS potential.

I also found it's survivability in non-raid situations very annoying. If you go a full 41 you can't get scattershot. Intimidation is on a 1min CD and requires your pet to be on the right target and in range to attack. Pets are such a nuisance in terms of that (having trouble attacking a moving target) that I often found myself dead. Going MM gives you so much more in terms of scattershot, imp wing clip (if you go 0/41/20), silent shot. I also find the 31 and 41 pt talents terrible, especially the 41. I don't know what Blizzard was thinking on that one. At least in MM the 31 is a persistent bonus, and silent shot is very useful in non-raiding situations.

Fundamentally I oppose BM. It's dependence on an auto attack, it's dependence on an often times unusable pet. It's as if you aren't really playing the game anymore, it's playing for you. I can't take pride in what I'm doing under those circumstances. I told my guild mates that I would quit Warcraft before I spec BM again. So I quit Warcraft back in early February. There are plenty of games out there, I don't need to be watching my character autoshoot for a 4hr raid. Others may find glory in autoshooting and telling your pet when to do a KC/BW, I don't. I've played a raiding warrior and priest before, so such a lack of involvement is too frustrating to stand for me. I regret selling my priest and warrior just before TBC came out.
#172SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Daenerys
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
What is your spec?
The numbers take on a whole new meaning if we factor in unleased fury and pet happiness.
My spec should link from my profile. It's a typical 41/20/0. Pet happiness is pretty much always green; at least it was for those stats I pasted.

Someone earlier was asking why some hunters have an aversion towards BM spec. The problem for me isn't that it's "more micromanagement" although that is true. It's that the BM spec simply isn't fun. It is entirely autoshot dependant spec. With auto accounting for 40-50% of your personal damage output. This is a video game with make believe goals and rewards, so like many others the only true reward is pride. Winning at the damage meters, having your ingame name be synonymous with being known as a good player, etc.. Having my character simply autoshot himself onto the damage meters is embarrassing for me. It's also frustrating to depend on a pet friendly encounter for you to truly achieve your full DPS potential.

I also found it's survivability in non-raid situations very annoying. If you go a full 41 you can't get scattershot. Intimidation is on a 1min CD and requires your pet to be on the right target and in range to attack. Pets are such a nuisance in terms of that (having trouble attacking a moving target) that I often found myself dead. Going MM gives you so much more in terms of scattershot, imp wing clip (if you go 0/41/20), silent shot. I also find the 31 and 41 pt talents terrible, especially the 41. I don't know what Blizzard was thinking on that one. At least in MM the 31 is a persistent bonus, and silent shot is very useful in non-raiding situations.

Fundamentally I oppose BM. It's dependence on an auto attack, it's dependence on an often times unusable pet. It's as if you aren't really playing the game anymore, it's playing for you. I can't take pride in what I'm doing under those circumstances. I told my guild mates that I would quit Warcraft before I spec BM again. So I quit Warcraft back in early February. There are plenty of games out there, I don't need to be watching my character autoshoot for a 4hr raid. Others may find glory in autoshooting and telling your pet when to do a KC/BW, I don't. I've played a raiding warrior and priest before, so such a lack of involvement is too frustrating to stand for me. I regret selling my priest and warrior just before TBC came out.
I think you are greatly mistaken about BM. MM has a very similar % of damage coming from Auto-shot. I am BM for the first time in over 2 years, and if there is one thing that is immediatly obvious right off the bat it's that BM spec is MUCH more involved when you're raiding.

Now, your comments about it outside of raids are fine, but I think you are not understanding where your damage comes from as an MM Hunter.
#173SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Jezele View Post
I've been going back and forth, trying to decide between BM and MM for my raiding spec. I want to be able to provide the maximum DPS possible to my group, but because I enjoy the playstyle a bit more, I'd prefer to go MM if it's not significantly inferior to BM. I've been doing some theorycrafting comparisons and figured that I'd pass them along.

For my calculations, I assumed 500 Agi, 250 Int, 1000 AP from gear, 130 crit, 120 hit, 32 DPS ammo, and a 77.4 DPS, 2.9 speed weapon (I approximated these based on Howitzer's gear, figuring it'd be a good representation of typical raiding gear). I did not include consumables (my guild tends not to use them as we're semi-casual), but did include Kings, Might, Mark of the Wild, and Arcane Brilliance. Pet DPS values are based on Cheeky's spreadsheet calculations and I used a steady-shot rotation for BM and a steady-shot/multi-shot replacement rotation for MM.

41/20 BM: 2183 RAP, 1077 hunter DPS, 380 pet DPS, 1457 total DPS
7/49+ MM: 2727 RAP, 1106 hunter DPS, 215 pet DPS, 1321 total DPS

Clearly, BM is a better choice with this particular gear set, and by a fairly significant margin (over 10%). However, if I were to use the same numbers, but with a 2.4 speed bow (the current "ideal" speed for MM builds), the 7/49 build would provide a total DPS of 1441 - very similar to the BM values. What this says to me is that BM is not inherently better for raiding than MM (which is what my gut was telling me), but because of the current ranged weapon itemization (the best 2.4 speed weapon is only 66.3 DPS while most of the epic weapons are around BM's 2.8/2.9 ideal), BM is currently able to produce better results (especially with MM's conflict of wanting faster weapons for the ideal steady-shot rotation, but losing multi-shot DPS in the process).

Still not sure what I'm going to make of this as I get my hunter closer to raidworthiness, but I think it's clear that if my goal is max DPS and there are no changes to ranged weapon itemization (at least in the ranges attainable by my guild currently), BM will be the choice I'll need to make.



Adding in glancing blows for base damage would help with the accruacy, although it's not a huge effect (skipping it inflates overall pet DPS by about 5%). I approximated with 25% based on reported rates.

This is basically the conclusion I came to myself. This isn't saying you must be BM or you're gimping yourself. I think its quite gear dependent, player dependent, and has its ups and downs. But so far, I've been sweeping up the floor with sustained dps and its been quite a bit of fun.
#174SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Stefan
what kinda gear would you suggest going for? and is there a certain focus of gems that BM should go for?
#175SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by woburn View Post

Fundamentally I oppose BM. It's dependence on an auto attack, it's dependence on an often times unusable pet. It's as if you aren't really playing the game anymore, it's playing for you. I can't take pride in what I'm doing under those circumstances.

Don't ever play a warlock or SP or rogue or... wait... all classes depend on white damage, right? Locks and SP's throw up their DOTs and forget about them. The BM hunter's pet IS your DOT that you have to manage. Think of yourself as an affliction lock that has to maintain your DOT through pet mend and correct positioning / smart use. BM in raiding I've found isn't auto-pilot by any means. If you're not rotating shots correctly and managing your pet you'll be no better than that newb lolbm hunter standing in Org staring at you and asking stupid questions like "is that T7?" Take pride in whatever spec you have by showing the rest of the raid and yourself that you can squeeze every ounce of utility / dps out of your class.
#176SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Quasi
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
Now, your comments about it outside of raids are fine, but I think you are not understanding where your damage comes from as an MM Hunter.
I will have to agree with the above comment. I don't think I have been able to see any WWS parses where our Hunters haven't had ~40% of their damage coming from auto shot.
#177SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Tazrach
Howitzer -
One of my real concerns with the BM build is the ability to function with out a Shadow Priest in particular or a good group structure in it's absence. Can you give an example of a typical raid structure for say a magtheridon kill? We currently only have one shadow priest and I cant see me getting in a group with him any time soon.

The other reason I have not yet respecced is I am still testing a hybrid build. I am currently 0/31/30 and self buffing to 1950RAP with 30.5% crit with a capped hit, come patch I will go up to 2k+ with that crit. Since the respec from MM I have consistently doing better damage than the other hunters in my guild, and close to running with some of the more traditional powerhouse dps classes without the benefit of a stacked group. I want to push the issue see if i can get some better group make ups than I am currently getting without hurting raid DPS before I pass final judgment.

Looking forward to hearing about the make up of your groups as I think it will be a great help. In fact if anyone else would like to post thier actual and fantasy groups setups that would be great.

Taz
#178SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
If I've got a few mana pots, I'd rather be in the rogues' dps group with the feral druid and the enhancement shaman. Beastial Wrath + trinkets and Heroism is incredible.
#179SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Stefan
after the patch hopefully the hunter group will be MM hunter / surviv hunter / BM hunter / shaman / feral druid. and yes we always bring 3 hunters to raids.
#180SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Daenerys
Originally Posted by Tazrach View Post
Howitzer -
One of my real concerns with the BM build is the ability to function with out a Shadow Priest in particular or a good group structure in it's absence. Can you give an example of a typical raid structure for say a magtheridon kill? We currently only have one shadow priest and I cant see me getting in a group with him any time soon.

The other reason I have not yet respecced is I am still testing a hybrid build. I am currently 0/31/30 and self buffing to 1950RAP with 30.5% crit with a capped hit, come patch I will go up to 2k+ with that crit. Since the respec from MM I have consistently doing better damage than the other hunters in my guild, and close to running with some of the more traditional powerhouse dps classes without the benefit of a stacked group. I want to push the issue see if i can get some better group make ups than I am currently getting without hurting raid DPS before I pass final judgment.

Looking forward to hearing about the make up of your groups as I think it will be a great help. In fact if anyone else would like to post thier actual and fantasy groups setups that would be great.

Taz
I think I can help here.

First, I went from 41+ to 0/31/30 and spent some time with it, but then I discovered 0/38/23. You might give it a shot...LR really does not provide a large benefit given Hunter itemization these days. You will drop a bit of crit, but you should pick up more than enough AP to make up for it. I'd try that build before going to BM, since imo it represents a much better "hybrid" build and the ultimate non-BM raid build. Just my opinion, but crunch the numbers and see for your toon if you would be better off.

As for raid composition, a Shadow Priest is of course a great luxury, but BM is not inherently more mana-intensive than other builds. Yes, you are spamming Steady more often, but you are not spamming Arcane and Multi nearly as often. In fact, in my case, I'm seeing Arcane damage as being *barely* better than my Steady Shots, so I'm looking at dropping it altogether from my rotation. The only time it would be used if if I get a Quick Shots proc during Rapid Fire, since the GCD will start pushing Steady into the next Auto when that happens.

I've been in a bunch of different group make-ups in the past week of raiding, and I'm really liking the melee group. Shaman buffs are *incredible* for your pet, since they get all the goodies that Rogues get (10% AP, Str totem, Agi totem, Heroism), plus you get the Agi and Heroism. Furthermore, BS from the Warrior is a huge buff for the pet as well. Maybe even an MM Hunter in there for TSA. In the caster group, you get infinite mana...and that's basically it. I've found with smart consumable use, I'm keeping my mana up just fine. So for me as a raid leader (who gets to choose my group =P), I'm trying to get into the Shadow Priest group for trash/easy-farm bosses, then into the melee DPS group for a tough/new boss.

And since nothing is easy, the one exception is when there is significant environmental damage to the pet. In those cases, VT/VE spam not only keeps you plugging away, but it keeps your pet alive as well. So for Prince I always make sure I'm in the SPriest group, since my pet is always taking the shadow nova damage (no point pulling him out if he's going to get healed back to full before the next one).

There is no one "perfect" group for a BM Hunter, because each fight is different, but hopefully that gives you an idea of some of the situations I've played around with in the past week.
#181SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Daenerys
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
what kinda gear would you suggest going for? and is there a certain focus of gems that BM should go for?
Maintain a healthy crit rate for KC (this will be huge in 2.1) and get that RAP up. I'm happy with my ~21.5% crit, but I'm still working on getting my RAP up a bit more (at ~1800+ with Hawk atm). I will even sacrifice a bit of my crit to get decent RAP upgrades. Probably move change my 8 crit gems for 8 Agi, so as to maintain some crit but also get the AP. In general, straight crit gems are a no-no for BM.
#182SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
I think I can help here.

First, I went from 41+ to 0/31/30 and spent some time with it, but then I discovered 0/38/23. You might give it a shot...LR really does not provide a large benefit given Hunter itemization these days. You will drop a bit of crit, but you should pick up more than enough AP to make up for it. I'd try that build before going to BM, since imo it represents a much better "hybrid" build and the ultimate non-BM raid build. Just my opinion, but crunch the numbers and see for your toon if you would be better off.

As for raid composition, a Shadow Priest is of course a great luxury, but BM is not inherently more mana-intensive than other builds. Yes, you are spamming Steady more often, but you are not spamming Arcane and Multi nearly as often. In fact, in my case, I'm seeing Arcane damage as being *barely* better than my Steady Shots, so I'm looking at dropping it altogether from my rotation. The only time it would be used if if I get a Quick Shots proc during Rapid Fire, since the GCD will start pushing Steady into the next Auto when that happens.

I've been in a bunch of different group make-ups in the past week of raiding, and I'm really liking the melee group. Shaman buffs are *incredible* for your pet, since they get all the goodies that Rogues get (10% AP, Str totem, Agi totem, Heroism), plus you get the Agi and Heroism. Furthermore, BS from the Warrior is a huge buff for the pet as well. Maybe even an MM Hunter in there for TSA. In the caster group, you get infinite mana...and that's basically it. I've found with smart consumable use, I'm keeping my mana up just fine. So for me as a raid leader (who gets to choose my group =P), I'm trying to get into the Shadow Priest group for trash/easy-farm bosses, then into the melee DPS group for a tough/new boss.

And since nothing is easy, the one exception is when there is significant environmental damage to the pet. In those cases, VT/VE spam not only keeps you plugging away, but it keeps your pet alive as well. So for Prince I always make sure I'm in the SPriest group, since my pet is always taking the shadow nova damage (no point pulling him out if he's going to get healed back to full before the next one).

There is no one "perfect" group for a BM Hunter, because each fight is different, but hopefully that gives you an idea of some of the situations I've played around with in the past week.
38/23 is a great build, I used it for a long time for raiding specifically and like it a lot. However, (I personally), have found that while 38/23 can provide more "burst" damage, it does not give the same "sustained" high dps of the 41/20/0 build when all variables are working to your advantage. I'm not going to write-off BM for raiding just yet. I'm going to stay this spec until at least a week into patch 2.1 to make a final decision.
#183SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
Exactly... You can't make a final decision on a 2.1 raiding build until you've had the chance to raid a few times with it after 2.1. In fact, I basically decided to run 41/20 now specifically in preparation for 2.1... just to figure out how the hell to play BM. I'm liking it a lot so far though and it looks like it will only be getting better with the next patch.

Of course, in 2.2 they'll probably replace pets with critters or something like that.
#184SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12woburn
XXX

Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
I think you are greatly mistaken about BM. MM has a very similar % of damage coming from Auto-shot. I am BM for the first time in over 2 years, and if there is one thing that is immediatly obvious right off the bat it's that BM spec is MUCH more involved when you're raiding.

Now, your comments about it outside of raids are fine, but I think you are not understanding where your damage comes from as an MM Hunter.
It's been a while since I ran the numbers but back when I raided multishot accounted for a huge amount of my damage on full instances. On a single target boss you are correct, but on trash clears and bosses with more than one target (Moroes/Curator) my auto damage was somewhere around 33-35%, versus 40-50% when BM. To me that's a big deal, it means I'm using 2 buttons instead of 1. Others may not care but having a class change from 3 shots pre-TBC to 1 shot is a big deal.

Perhaps we differ in our definition of raid involvement. I admitted BM was more micromanagement (as someone else stated), but I found a lot of the involvement was mostly frustration in getting the pet to act correctly. Something being a PITA to make work properly, and involvement with the raid, are two different things to me. Yes, it's a lot of work to keep your pet alive and active, while still doing damage yourself, but that's simply the pets being a problem. My definition of involvement is taking burst damage chances on a boss. Remember the MC days when you had to carefully use your aimed and multishots to not peel agro? Hunters don't have that burst DPS ability anymore. Hitting one button doesn't make me feel important to a raid's overall damage output. BM involvement is more of a nuisance than anything else.
#185SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Teleri
With the changes to Kill Command in 2.1 does anyone have any thoughts on the value of a constant 600 armor penetration set bonus?

It might be worth sacrificing some upgrades to keep that set bonus, especially as BM.
#186SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
It is actually a slightly better debuff for a marks hunter since your attacks ignore armor, not your pet's.
#187SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Stefan
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
Maintain a healthy crit rate for KC (this will be huge in 2.1) and get that RAP up. I'm happy with my ~21.5% crit, but I'm still working on getting my RAP up a bit more (at ~1800+ with Hawk atm). I will even sacrifice a bit of my crit to get decent RAP upgrades. Probably move change my 8 crit gems for 8 Agi, so as to maintain some crit but also get the AP. In general, straight crit gems are a no-no for BM.

Right now im just following socket bonus's using 16 AP for red, 4 crit and 6 stam for blue, and finally 8 crit for yellow. Would it be worth it to replace the sockest with all 8 agi?
#188SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Thornbloom
I've never tried the /0/38/23 spec but I'm intrigued having read the above posts. Is this what you had in mind?

Last edited by Thornbloom : 05/01/07 at 4:26 AM.
#189SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Chuu
I was trying out a BM build tonight following much of the advice in this thread. The first thing I did was help out two guildmates on alts on the path of conquest questline to get used to new bindings and such.

I just felt utterly neutered as a BM hunter. Scattershot and Silencing Shot are not raiding tools . . but without them I felt almost naked. Not having perma-traps with the beastlord bonus also just felt wrong.

I'm going to stick with it for at least one raid, but I just don't think I can cope with this as a hunter

I mainly came here to ask for clarification on two things though (and at 4 am I just can't bring myself to do the math). Do you just use a steady/auto cycle, or does the amount clipped from autoshot justify arcane shot as well when it is up? If yes, multi-shot too?

Second, under rapid fire + BW, how slow of a bow do you need to justify staying with an auto/steady cycle?
#190SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Greenpiggy
2.6 brings you to about 1.6s between autoshots
If you think your ping and reaction time can handle it, then thats optimal.
If not, 2.8 or 2.9 is probably fine.

Bear in mind that you will also occasionally get quickshot procs during rapid fire too - whether thats worth bearing in mind when choosing spec and weapon speed is another question of course.
#191SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Tazrach
Hmm looking at the 38/23 build, assuming you get 3 points into master marks, would you not be better off post 2.1 with going 36/25 and geting survival instincts. Same 4% ap boost for two talent points with the addtion of 4% damage mitigation.

Taz
#192SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
orsraunia
I've read some very interesting comments in this thread and i'd like to post some of mine.
I have raided with all hunter specs (currently BM again). After 2.1 one thing is for sure, i am not going to be MM....

In this post i'll state some facts concerning BM and MM specs, i am aiming on pointing out some details that are often not mentioned and if taken into account, they surely make some talents seem less apealing than they seem with a first look.

I will not try to make a point about which spec is better, i just want you to consider some facts that most of times are left out, when people evaluate specs.


MM:
Being a BM or Survival speced hunter means that you usualy go into MM tree up to mortal shots (20 points), so you miss the talents that are beyond this.

1.Barrage and imrpoved barrage: the buffing of multi-shot's dmg is not as usefull as it may seem in theory, becasue multi shot doesnot contribute to hunter's total dmg by a that significant %. About 10-12% i'd say.

2.Master Marksman: the alchemy nerf will have an impact on the usefulness of this talent. I can run the numbers for you, but that would just make my big post even bigger. Do it yourself and see.

3. a general comment about the tree... As we get better gear, our AP will scale pretty good, but not our crit chance, on the contrary if you are Survival speced hunter then your crit will scale, maybe not with a great rate, but still it will scale. I am not sure how important this is, it's just a conclusion based on the mechanics of the MM tree, a conclusion i would like to insert in the discussion and hear your opinion about it.


BM:
A significant difference between MM and BM specs, based on the tree mechanics is the following:

It's easier for a MM hunter to take advantage of his talents and convert the theoretical benefit into raw dmg. What i mean is that talents which increase your AP, crit, % of dmg, e.t.c. (MM talents are like this) are simple straightforward talents. You can benefit 100% of such talents when dealing dmg. On the contrary, the +20% shooting speed increase of a BM, the buffing of pet's dmg, e.t.c. are talents that are affected by things like "shot rotation/cycle, time between special and auto shots, pet's survivability, e.t.c.". Such talents need special "handling" and you can't benefit 100% from them, which makes the BM spec a harder to play spec and a spec which makes your dmg fluctuate a lot on different boss fights, different raiding nights, e.t.c.

1. Serpent's swiftness' +20% speed increase is not a +20% dmg increase. This is a pretty obvious thing, but some hunters make this mistake. It increases auto shot and steady shot's dmg by about 20%. Analyze your shots and you'll see that auto shot + steady shot contribute to a BM hunter's total dmg by about 55%... so it's an about 10-11% total dmg increase.


---take into account that the numbers are rough estimates. Mostly i am trying to describe a more correct way of evaluating the importance/usefulness of certain talents---


2. BM tree buffs pet's dmg, while not buffing yours as much as MM tree does. One little detail, that usualy none mentions, is that you will not miss but your pet will miss quite often on boss fights (even with 2/2 Animal handler). You'll see this if you use swstats or recap and analyze the source of your total dmg in a boss fight, the misses/hits/e.t.c.

Which means that MM tree, which buffs your damage is not affected by missed shots... while BM tree that relies more on your pet's dmg, is greatly affected by misses (my pet's melee miss rate is about 20%). Additionaly, it's affected by glancing blows and pet's survivability.


3. one good thing is that your auto shot's casting time is 20% faster, which leads to less "lost time" between a special shot (like multi-shot) and an auto shot.

My experience so far is that playing a raiding hunter and dealing good DPS is far more complicated and hard, than some mages/locks/e.t.c. think... BM and MM specs are both good and viable raiding specs. BM will become more viable and stronger after 2.1

Which spec is better for one depends greatly on his playstyle, his effectiveness to use pet correctly, the nature of the boss fight, his raiding envinroment (raid setup, healers healing pet occasionaly or not...) and his current gear.

There are so many factors to take into consideration, that whoever claims that he can fully analyze these 2 specs and say for example that "BM spec is better in general" or the opposite thing, is propably mistaken.



One last comment about the relation between gear and spec, think the following...

Which spec benefits more from a 5% crit increase ? BM or MM ?

MM is the correct answer.



The answer to the question "which spec is better for one" depends greatly on one's gear, meaning on his current unmodified (by talents) AP and crit chance.

This question is a very hard one to answer and the answer is different for different people. All hunters should try both specs and use the one that works better for them.

I wouldn't reccomend MM after the 2.1 patch, unless something changes. BM and survival specs are geting a buff, while MM tree's usefulness gets an indirective nerf, due to the fact that we won't be able to buff our AP with elixirs/flask as much as we are able to do now.

I consider 2.1.0 patch as the rebirth of the Survivalist hunter...

Last edited by orsraunia : 05/01/07 at 8:08 AM. Reason: adding 1 more comment
#193SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Wouldnt say rebirth of survivalist, more like.. It's avaible for more people because it doesnt require buffs+pots and top notch gear to be viable.
#194SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Greenpiggy
Serpents Swiftness does not boost Steady Shot damage at all.
its a 1.5second cast and the GCD is 1.5 seconds - any Haste effect will speed up the cast time, but you still won't be able to fire another shot until the GCD is over.
#195SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12orsraunia
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Serpents Swiftness does not boost Steady Shot damage at all.
its a 1.5second cast and the GCD is 1.5 seconds - any Haste effect will speed up the cast time, but you still won't be able to fire another shot until the GCD is over.
You are right on this, i stand corrected.
#196SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Serpents Swiftness does not boost Steady Shot damage at all.
its a 1.5second cast and the GCD is 1.5 seconds - any Haste effect will speed up the cast time, but you still won't be able to fire another shot until the GCD is over.
Since this is correct, I think it's safe to conclude that under hasted conditions you need to stop using steady shot. I'd suggest the following general rule:
If your hasted attack speed drops below 1.5 + latency, then stop using steady shot and use arcane/multi as they come off of cooldown.
Thoughts?
#197SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Intermission
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Serpents Swiftness does not boost Steady Shot damage at all.
its a 1.5second cast and the GCD is 1.5 seconds - any Haste effect will speed up the cast time, but you still won't be able to fire another shot until the GCD is over.
If you are chain casting it, I guess it would make no difference. However, when trying to make sure you aren't clipping an auto, having its speed increased is still handy.

edit: unless there is something regarding auto and global cooldown? (not 0.5 hunter cooldown)
#198SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Greenpiggy
Yes Intermisson, you are correct there of course, and that is a benefit, although it is probably unique to BM as a MM hunter will be trying to slot 2 specials.

And what Iron says is also right although..I find that Multishot when lots of haste is active seems to be an even worse offender than steady for clipping the next autoshot(possibly due to some animation issues the same as autoshot)
#199SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Howitzer
In response to orsraunia's post: While I agree with most of what you said and I understand that English is your 2nd language, (I assume), [EU], etc. some things that were said didn't come across correctly to me. Regardless, what I gathered from it all is you're saying MM is a more laid-back 3 button rotational approach to "Huntering", while BM is a bit more involved because of pet dependencies. There are a few things that have actually ANNOYED me thus far from the 4-5 days since I've respecced from Marks. Basically, I hate having to ask Paladins for BOM/BOK for the pet. I almost feel bad doing this tbh... I even offered them some gold as a bonus to wasting reagents on my cat! Then, I realized its their friggen job and stopped giving a shit about it. Now I just bitch. =) One other thing, I've noticed that I can't use the damn pet on Solarian in TK. The friggen pet sucks up the debuffs and can cause nasty things to happen if they go unnoticed.

Bottom line....BM has been awesome DPS on fights where the mobs don't make it their duty to rip my pet's face off, and BM has been a horrible burden on fights where my pet can't be used without frequent and quick deaths. Overall, I love BM and I miss MM. Funny no? You get used to playing your class a certain way for 2 years and then change overnight to a spec you figure you'd never even consider because it has such a wow social stigma aka, (bm spec you fooking newblar /point /spit), but here we are with a 10,000+ views thread where obviously thousands of hunters are considering making the move to BM especially in 2.1. Whatever spec you are or choose, the class itself still needs help that can only come from the devs making much needed changes.

Last edited by Howitzer : 05/01/07 at 10:47 AM.
#200SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Since this is correct, I think it's safe to conclude that under hasted conditions you need to stop using steady shot. I'd suggest the following general rule:
If your hasted attack speed drops below 1.5 + latency, then stop using steady shot and use arcane/multi as they come off of cooldown.
Thoughts?
Its a logical move. One I have used while MM spec because my lag would not allow me to weave steady shots. Especially when bloodlust + rapid fire + Imp. AtoH + Abacus of the Violent Odds was used. I have pushed 3.3 speed weapons to machine gun speed, very useful when JoW is on the mob.

Right now to deal with my mana starvation, I have 1.8 speed weapon in my bags. I usually wait for cool down on Abacus and Rapid Fire before calling for JoW on the boss, then I pop my fast weapon in and use hastening attacks with auto attack only. I can regen quite a bit of mana this way, but yes my dps takes huge hit for next 15 seconds. I do this along with heavy use of Fel mana potions.
#201SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
I went out to Blasted Lands last night on the PTR with a fellow hunter, and we tested specs. Both of us specced all three specs and went to town on a servant down there. My personal best dps was my full rotation as 7/41/13 while also using my pet. The other hunter's best dps was with a 41/20/0 spec. The most noticeable thing was that though his dps did go down slightly, he was able sustain his mana very well when he tried using nothing but steady shot and kill command.

Either way, both our personal bests when we went all out, I was at about 1180 dps as marks and he was around 1150 dps as BM using a full rotation. Now, these servants have very low armor so these numbers are obviously slightly off, and they are obviously not boss mods so you can consider the pets' dps would go down a decent amount due to misses and glancing blows. All things considered though, I really feel that the trees will be equally viable with different strengths and weaknesses. On some fights, a BM hunter will be stronger, and on some fights, a Marks hunter will be more successful.

Oh, and btw, both of us sucked as survival. He was able to get about 750 agi with LR, I was a little lower than this. Either way, neither of us were impressed at all.
#202SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
Anyone know of an addon that displays attack speed- like maybe on the Titan bar? Just so I don't have to have my char screen open to check it.

I know I could memorize all of the haste effects and be able to calculate my in-fight haste by monitoring my current buff effects, but it gets pretty complicated when you're factoring in IAotH, Rapid Fire, Grull Trinket, or Bloodlust/Heroism.

So can I spam KC with my hasted Auto-Arcane shots without messing stuff up?
#203SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Since this is correct, I think it's safe to conclude that under hasted conditions you need to stop using steady shot. I'd suggest the following general rule:
If your hasted attack speed drops below 1.5 + latency, then stop using steady shot and use arcane/multi as they come off of cooldown.
Thoughts?
I disagree with the generality of this statement. If my auto shot is 1.5 seconds and my latency 100 ms (so basically SS would be considered a 1.6 second cast), I should cast steady if no other cooldowns are up. If I clip my auto shot by .1 seconds, I only lose .1 seconds, but I also gain an extra what 650 or so damage. If you consider in a fight your steady hits for about the same as an auto shot, it's like having a .1 second auto shot every now and then.

Now granted, it's hard to string in shots when you're shooting that fast, but if you're running your bars and you antiicipate your lag, it's a good move.
#204SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
boomix
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
I went out to Blasted Lands last night on the PTR with a fellow hunter, and we tested specs. Both of us specced all three specs and went to town on a servant down there. My personal best dps was my full rotation as 7/41/13 while also using my pet. The other hunter's best dps was with a 41/20/0 spec. The most noticeable thing was that though his dps did go down slightly, he was able sustain his mana very well when he tried using nothing but steady shot and kill command.

Either way, both our personal bests when we went all out, I was at about 1180 dps as marks and he was around 1150 dps as BM using a full rotation. Now, these servants have very low armor so these numbers are obviously slightly off, and they are obviously not boss mods so you can consider the pets' dps would go down a decent amount due to misses and glancing blows. All things considered though, I really feel that the trees will be equally viable with different strengths and weaknesses. On some fights, a BM hunter will be stronger, and on some fights, a Marks hunter will be more successful.

Oh, and btw, both of us sucked as survival. He was able to get about 750 agi with LR, I was a little lower than this. Either way, neither of us were impressed at all.

For survival spec you are aiming at synergy with rogues/warriors/ ehn. shamans in your raid. High agility and high crit rate will keep EW up quite a bit up there, allowing you to buff other physical damage dealers in your raid. With raids becoming more friendly to melee dps it would be good to bring something else to the raid that can buff them from range.


Serpica,

I have G15 and LCD on it displays my char-sheet stats, but as far as mods go I don't know. This may be expensive proposition though.

Last edited by boomix : 05/01/07 at 10:49 AM. Reason: Added more to the reply
#205SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Beerbaron
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Serpents Swiftness does not boost Steady Shot damage at all.
its a 1.5second cast and the GCD is 1.5 seconds - any Haste effect will speed up the cast time, but you still won't be able to fire another shot until the GCD is over.
it depends how you look at it. serpents swiftness allows you to get more steady shots in per minute b/c autoshot is closer to the GCD than without.
#206SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
Originally Posted by boomix View Post
For survival spec you are aiming at synergy with rogues/warriors/ ehn. shamans in your raid. High agility and high crit rate will keep EW up quite a bit up there, allowing you to buff other physical damage dealers in your raid. With raids becoming more friendly to melee dps it would be good to bring something else to the raid that can buff them from range.


Serpica,

I have G15 and LCD on it displays my char-sheet stats, but as far as mods go I don't know. This may be expensive proposition though.
Agreed that EW is a pretty solid raid buff, and I haven't done the math to figure out the increase of raid dps compared to the loss of personal dps and party dps from TSA. It's also less important if you usually run in raids with only a few melee classes and hunters.
#207SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Intermission
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Yes Intermisson, you are correct there of course, and that is a benefit, although it is probably unique to BM as a MM hunter will be trying to slot 2 specials.
Unfortunately 500ms latency often stops the use of steady+special with a 2.52 speed post haste. Its possible, but the GCD then carries into the next auto-cycle, reducing that to only an instant ability possible without clipping, so not worth the steady+special in the first place.
#208SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
Originally Posted by boomix View Post
Serpica,

I have G15 and LCD on it displays my char-sheet stats, but as far as mods go I don't know. This may be expensive proposition though.
Sweet. I already use a G15 but I've been ignoring the LCD because all I was able to get it to do was display my memory and CPS usage, which are fine. What do I need to do to get it to display my character info?
#209SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
Sorry for the newb questions inc but..
1) How does +crit affect my pet?
2) How does +AP affect my pet?
(I think my pet gets a % of my AP, no?)
3) Does my pet get a % of my stats like agi and sta or what?
#210SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
I disagree with the generality of this statement. If my auto shot is 1.5 seconds and my latency 100 ms (so basically SS would be considered a 1.6 second cast), I should cast steady if no other cooldowns are up. If I clip my auto shot by .1 seconds, I only lose .1 seconds, but I also gain an extra what 650 or so damage. If you consider in a fight your steady hits for about the same as an auto shot, it's like having a .1 second auto shot every now and then.

Now granted, it's hard to string in shots when you're shooting that fast, but if you're running your bars and you anticipate your lag, it's a good move.
I see your point and perhaps I was overly general with my statement. I consider 1.6 (latency-adjusted) to be on the border of using/not using steady shot; I hadn't really considered it because generally speaking I don't tend to get into the border area with my haste effects (and in the cases I do, it's definitely a judgment call because the rule doesn't really hold). More often than not either I'm clearly too fast for steady or clearly I'm slow enough to use it. Simple math time:

Speed with quiver/ss = 2.9/(1.15*1.20)=2.10
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.20)=1.83
Speed with quiver/ss/abacus = 2.9/(1.15*1.20*1.25)=1.68
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.25*1.20)=1.46
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus/heroism(bloodlust) = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.25*1.20*1.30)=1.12

Generally during raids I have 200-250 ms ping, putting me squarely between quiver/ss/quickshots and quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus. I can say I have noticed clipping (not sure how much) of autoshots while under abacus w/o quickshots if I maintain my steady rotation - at that point I tend to switch to auto+arcane/multi (I haven't had issues with multi clipping my autoshots, although it appears others have - again, probably a judgment call). I do think as a general rule of thumb (with some flexibility) you can say that when attack speed < 1.5+latency you should switch to arcane/multi; clearly, however, there is a gray area that requires some judgment..

As a side note, I really really want to get a Dragonspine Trophy to test out (that + the full bouquet of haste effects easily pushes you into auto/arcane mode because you'll probably clip a shot with multi and definitely will with steady). The speed increase from that is pretty insane - when that procs if you manage to get abacus/quick shots going your attack speed drops like a brick (attack speed is around 0.89 with sunfury bow and quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus/heroism/dragonspine - good luck getting those stars to align though).
#211SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Sweet. I already use a G15 but I've been ignoring the LCD because all I was able to get it to do was display my memory and CPS usage, which are fine. What do I need to do to get it to display my character info?
Latest drivers is what did it for me.
#212SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I see your point and perhaps I was overly general with my statement. I consider 1.6 (latency-adjusted) to be on the border of using/not using steady shot; I hadn't really considered it because generally speaking I don't tend to get into the border area with my haste effects (and in the cases I do, it's definitely a judgment call because the rule doesn't really hold). More often than not either I'm clearly too fast for steady or clearly I'm slow enough to use it. Simple math time:

Speed with quiver/ss = 2.9/(1.15*1.20)=2.10
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.20)=1.83
Speed with quiver/ss/abacus = 2.9/(1.15*1.20*1.25)=1.68
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.25*1.20)=1.46
Speed with quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus/heroism(bloodlust) = 2.9/(1.15*1.15*1.25*1.20*1.30)=1.12

Generally during raids I have 200-250 ms ping, putting me squarely between quiver/ss/quickshots and quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus. I can say I have noticed clipping (not sure how much) of autoshots while under abacus w/o quickshots if I maintain my steady rotation - at that point I tend to switch to auto+arcane/multi (I haven't had issues with multi clipping my autoshots, although it appears others have - again, probably a judgment call). I do think as a general rule of thumb (with some flexibility) you can say that when attack speed < 1.5+latency you should switch to arcane/multi; clearly, however, there is a gray area that requires some judgment..

As a side note, I really really want to get a Dragonspine Trophy to test out (that + the full bouquet of haste effects easily pushes you into auto/arcane mode because you'll probably clip a shot with multi and definitely will with steady). The speed increase from that is pretty insane - when that procs if you manage to get abacus/quick shots going your attack speed drops like a brick (attack speed is around 0.89 with sunfury bow and quiver/ss/quickshots/abacus/heroism/dragonspine - good luck getting those stars to align though).
Don't forget Rapid Fire.
#213SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Don't forget Rapid Fire.
I knew I'd forget something. Even without considering rapid fire, however, more often than not you won't be in the judgment-call zone with respect to steady shot. If you put up rapid fire, you'll be faster than either abacus or quick shots (at about 1.5 speed with sunfury bow/ss/quiver). After lag I don't see the possibility of maintaining a full steady/auto rotation without clipping substantially. I guess my point is that while I may have oversimplified for certain cases, more often than not that rule will be true. Admittedly, however, there is a gray area (of varying size, as it is seems to me to be largely dependant on your latency) in which using steady is a judgment call.
#214SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
Gladiator Xbow speed has been changed on PTR from 3.2 to 3.1, not sure if that has been mentioned.
#215SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
You guys have missed a lot when you talk about cutting steady shot/specials out of your rotations. Unless you get down to pretty much unreachable speeds (or climb up to unplayable latency) it is always in your benefit to use steady/specials.

It breaks down to a pretty basic equation.

Average auto shot - A
Time between auto shots - T
Average steady shot - S
Delay added to auto shot - D

So if:

((A + S) / (T + D)) > (A / T) - keep firing steady shot

It is very, very hard to unbalance that equation to the right (the stop steady condition). Since steady and auto do similar damage, the delay added (D) would need to nearly exceed your time between auto shots (T). Rather you reach a state where haste effects aren't beneficial (but not detrimental, beyond tightening your timing).

Edit: A stupidly easy fix would be to have all haste effects also work on your global cool down. Since heroism/blood lust already do this (iirc) the code is there.

Edit2: All haste effects means our quivers too!
#216SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Beerbaron
I can't test this right now, but how does in-combat range weapon swapping affect the GCD and the autoshot timer?

i have been BM all this week with a 2.7 weapon and things work out really well with a steady/auto rotation. imp hawk procs make the rotation nice and tight. the only issue is rapid fire is too much and clips my autoshots.. so i was consider swapping to a 3.0 for the duration of rapid fire. can this be done fluently?
#217SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
It can be done fluently, itemrack can do it automagically actually. You can modify the priest triggers that check for spirit tap. Shot timer resets on swap and global cool is triggered.

I played around with it for a bit but it threw me off too much to be useful.
#218SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
You guys have missed a lot when you talk about cutting steady shot/specials out of your rotations. Unless you get down to pretty much unreachable speeds (or climb up to unplayable latency) it is always in your benefit to use steady/specials.

It breaks down to a pretty basic equation.

Average auto shot - A
Time between auto shots - T
Average steady shot - S
Delay added to auto shot - D

So if:

((A + S) / (T + D)) > (A / T) - keep firing steady shot

It is very, very hard to unbalance that equation to the right (the stop steady condition). Since steady and auto do similar damage, the delay added (D) would need to nearly exceed your time between auto shots (T). Rather you reach a state where haste effects aren't beneficial (but not detrimental, beyond tightening your timing).

Edit: A stupidly easy fix would be to have all haste effects also work on your global cool down. Since heroism/blood lust already do this (iirc) the code is there.

Edit2: All haste effects means our quivers too!

A benefit of skipping specials for a period of time (time between arcanes) would allow for a tick of Spirit-based mana regen. I don't think that makes up for the lost DPS, but if you are waiting for the cooldown on your Fel Mana Potion anyway stacking these haste effects can be useful to maintain some emblence of DPS.
#219SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
You guys have missed a lot when you talk about cutting steady shot/specials out of your rotations. Unless you get down to pretty much unreachable speeds (or climb up to unplayable latency) it is always in your benefit to use steady/specials.

It breaks down to a pretty basic equation.

Average auto shot - A
Time between auto shots - T
Average steady shot - S
Delay added to auto shot - D

So if:

((A + S) / (T + D)) > (A / T) - keep firing steady shot

It is very, very hard to unbalance that equation to the right (the stop steady condition). Since steady and auto do similar damage, the delay added (D) would need to nearly exceed your time between auto shots (T). Rather you reach a state where haste effects aren't beneficial (but not detrimental, beyond tightening your timing).

Edit: A stupidly easy fix would be to have all haste effects also work on your global cool down. Since heroism/blood lust already do this (iirc) the code is there.

Edit2: All haste effects means our quivers too!
First, thanks for comments (and definitely I agree, they should make all haste adjust the GCD). Your equation is correct, but your inequality is not representative of the argument. The A/T term is only for autoshot damage / unit time - the argument is whether autoshot + steady shot are better than autoshot+arcane+multi. A more representative equation would be

Average auto shot - A
Time between auto shots - T
Average steady shot - S
Delay added to auto shot - D
Arcane Shot Damage - R
Multishot Damage - M

So if:

((A + S) / (T + D)) > (A / T) + M / 10 + R / 6 - keep firing steady shot

Assuming, of course, that your multi isn't delaying auto and you fire every time the shots come off of cooldown. Running a spreadsheet (using my auto/steady/arcane/multi numbers from a gruul kill as typical raid buffed values for damage and adjusting for crits) with that equation (where I am firing no steady shots at all in the second rotation) I see pretty much exactly what I would expect - around 1.5 speed you see a peak in the difference between auto/steady and auto/arcane/multi. Auto/arcane/multi starts to gain ground on auto/steady below 1.5 attack speed and passes auto/steady somewhere around 0.9 attack speed.

So my conclusion is that the general rule I posited was a half-truth; there is a number around which you should consider changing rotation, but it was lower than I expected - around 0.9 in my case. It will vary depending on your average shot hits. I'm going to work on a comparison of these two rotations with one that I think people are more likely to use - one using steady/auto/arcane/multi on priority.
#220SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Keltan
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
Sorry for the newb questions inc but..
1) How does +crit affect my pet?
2) How does +AP affect my pet?
(I think my pet gets a % of my AP, no?)
3) Does my pet get a % of my stats like agi and sta or what?
# Pets get about 30% of the hunter's stamina added to their stamina.
# Pets get about 35% of the hunter's armor added to their armor.
# Pets get about 22% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power.
# Pets get about 12.5% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their spell damage.
# Pets get about 40% of the hunter's resistances added to their own resistances.
I believe Wind Serpents only get 6% of your RAP added to their spell damage now. I'm not sure if that's a rule specific to wind serpents and Lightning Breath, or if they updated it so all pets now get only 6% to spell damage.

+crit affects your pet by fueling more Kill Commands and more Focus (if you have GftT) for specials.
#221SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12PhoR
Originally Posted by Keltan View Post
I believe Wind Serpents only get 6% of your RAP added to their spell damage now. I'm not sure if that's a rule specific to wind serpents and Lightning Breath, or if they updated it so all pets now get only 6% to spell damage.
It's actually a lot less than that.

It used to be close to that because:
Pet got 12.5% added to their spelldmg
Lightning Breath is an instant spell, so it only receives about 43% of spelldmg.
43% of 12.5% is 5.375% of your RAP that got added directly onto LB.


BUT, with the lightning breath nerf, Lightning breath is only receiving about 5% of spelldmg.
So now you get about 5% of 12.5%, which is only .625% of your RAP added directly to LB.
It might as well not scale at all after the nerf.


You're still technically correct that pets recieve 12.5% of our RAP added to their spelldmg, but each spell receives a different percentage of that...
Percentages of Percentages.. no wonder our scaling is so bad.
#222SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
If I am in a full burn rotation I never stop using specials. They simply substitute for the steady that would have been there. Although as BM it only gives me about 30 more DPS.

Everything is limited by the GC under extreme haste conditions. Shots don't slot evenly but you should almost never stop trying to fill a shot whenever possible, steady, multi, arcane, whatever your build/mana demands/cool downs require.
#223SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by PhoR View Post
It's actually a lot less than that.

It used to be close to that because:
Pet got 12.5% added to their spelldmg
Lightning Breath is an instant spell, so it only receives about 43% of spelldmg.
43% of 12.5% is 5.375% of your RAP that got added directly onto LB.


BUT, with the lightning breath nerf, Lightning breath is only receiving about 5% of spelldmg.
So now you get about 5% of 12.5%, which is only .625% of your RAP added directly to LB.
It might as well not scale at all after the nerf.


You're still technically correct that pets recieve 12.5% of our RAP added to their spelldmg, but each spell receives a different percentage of that...
Percentages of Percentages.. no wonder our scaling is so bad.
Have we confirmed this anywhere? I've been dying to find exact ratios to use, since I'm on the fence between Wind Serpent and Cat. How much LB scales (where Claw/Bite don't at all) would make the difference.

Also, is there any other pet ability that gets +spell damage?
#224SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Mephology
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Also, is there any other pet ability that gets +spell damage?
The scorpian's sting I belive also receives a bonus from spell damage to its ability.
#225SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
Just tested

Max 196 LB - 1563 AP
Max 182 LB - 433 AP

14 dmg gain - 1130 AP difference

1.24% AP -> LB damage

Since LB is an instant

1.24% / 0.43 = 2.88% of AP -> Spell damage

Might as well be 0%, any gains are more than canceled out by the stupid AI. Wait patiently for 2.1 and your 70 ravager.

Edit: Since it is hard to know how rounding factored in to this I would go with 3% AP to spell damage. The nerf was arbitrary, I can't imagine they picked a strange number like 2.88%
#226SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Just tested

Max 196 LB - 1563 AP
Max 182 LB - 433 AP

14 dmg gain - 1130 AP difference

1.24% AP -> LB damage

Since LB is an instant

1.24% / 0.43 = 2.88% of AP -> Spell damage

Might as well be 0%, any gains are more than canceled out by the stupid AI. Wait patiently for 2.1 and your 70 ravager.

Edit: Since it is hard to know how rounding factored in to this I would go with 3% AP to spell damage. The nerf was arbitrary, I can't imagine they picked a strange number like 2.88%
Did you account for Unleashed Fury? It would account for a 20% difference in apparent scaling if it is applied after scaling factors (from the wording it would appear to be the case, but I wouldn't assume it is). I ask because 2.88/1.2 would be 2.4 - which is a little bit less arbitrary in appearance. Then again, it seems pretty much moot since it's a such a small amount.
#227SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Monatok
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Just tested

Max 196 LB - 1563 AP
Max 182 LB - 433 AP

14 dmg gain - 1130 AP difference

1.24% AP -> LB damage

Since LB is an instant

1.24% / 0.43 = 2.88% of AP -> Spell damage

Might as well be 0%, any gains are more than canceled out by the stupid AI. Wait patiently for 2.1 and your 70 ravager.

Edit: Since it is hard to know how rounding factored in to this I would go with 3% AP to spell damage. The nerf was arbitrary, I can't imagine they picked a strange number like 2.88%
Both Osse and you have mentioned a level 70 ravager coming in 2.1, but checking every source I can think of (Thottbot PTR, Petopia, PTR forums /shudder), I'm not seeing where one has been put in.
Or is this simply a theoretical level 70 ravager, like a hunter without mana issues or the like?
#228SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Lodi
3.1 speed pvp xbow makes it more attractive for pve. But damn, that sucks for pvp. Were we really golden pvp gods?

/qqing in the corner over a 3% change

My wish list:

All haste affects GCD (good call, Glaurong)

Make AOTV not suck.

Give some int->rap (.3/int?) as a base ability.

Itemization. Replace most mp5 with crit. No more than 3mp5 on any one piece of gear.

Faster base cast time for steady shot (1 sec?) so people don't have to get bored by BM -> steady only. Although haste affecting GCD on ranged attacks would mean this isn't needed.

Talent or innate pushback (damage increases casting time) resistance (does it benefit from conc. aura? Granted, you can't be silenced out of it, so probably not. If no pushback resistance, 1.5 sec is too long.

Reduced minimum shot range (fine, you can't shoot in melee ... but outside of melee, why not?).

Unnerf flare/trap - rogues own us already. If there were a talent I could buy to make hunter's mark resist getting purged off by vanish, I'd buy it. I'm about to macro up a "if my target exists, pet follow then attack" just to abuse the pet stealth bypass.
#229SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Wait patiently for 2.1 and your 70 ravager.
I keep hearing people say this... where are these lvl 70 ravagers?
#230SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Just checked Petopia (usually pretty accurate, in my opinion) and there is no mention of a level 70 ravager (although there is a level 61 ravager listed). Can anyone provide a source on the level 70 ravager info?
#231SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
 Glaurong
Something I noticed but forgot to mention earlier with my testing.

They fixed our lvl 70 pet's base crit chance, it is once again 5%

Edit: Dug around to try to find the reference but I may in fact be smoking something on the lvl 70 ravager thing.

Last edited by Glaurong : 05/01/07 at 9:53 PM.
#232SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Iriesaadi
Not sure if anyone has specifically mentioned this, but another reason for switching to BM post-2.1 would be the alchemy changes. In addition to MM not benefitting as much from consumables (which has been mentioned), most dps classes will have their dps essentially "nerfed". Since pets don't currently benefit from consumables (other than the 22% of your ap, still no pet food except sporeling snacks?), they should see an increase in dps compared to pretty much all classes in the raid (i.e. nerfing everyone else essentially buffs the pets, since they were largely unaffected by the nerf). Convincing healers (other than possibly Lifebloom spamming ToL's) that a pet actually contributes something worth spending mana on to the raid is another story.

The ideal situation for us hunters WOULD be if hunter dps varied per boss but was essentially equivalent at the end of the raid. Since the hunter role is (supposedly) dps, the difference in the trees should be situational effectiveness (although how blizz "looked at" the survival tree and left MT as is still baffles me). Shot rotations will always be a more powerful indicator of a change in dps, and a lot of the bigger differences we're seeing in people switching specs is most likely due to them being more comfortable in a shot rotation that is closer to the theoretical "optimal rotation" for their current gear/spec/latency/reaction time.

P.S. The lvl 70 Ravengers are a myth I am guessing?

Last edited by Iriesaadi : 05/01/07 at 8:45 PM. Reason: typos
#233SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
I'm not gonna lie, I just respecced back to MM up until patch 2.1. The reason is it was hell in some places in TK, not usable in Gruul's lair basically, and some spots in SSC it was just insta death. I'm going to wait for the imp pet mend and avoidance and definitely revert back to 41/20/0 after patch. Right now it is just too stressful for these 25 mans.
#234SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
I haven't had issues in Gruul's Lair, but I don't have experience in TK or SSC. Gruul is mostly about managing your pet - it's far from ideal and you don't really get much pet dps, but you can at least keep him up for FF if nothing else.
#235SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
There's 70 ravagers in the new mine on that island where bloodmaws are. :P

They couldnt have made it more annoying though, full of 70 non elites and a 70 elite on the entrance. You cant just rush in unless you use invisibility pot or you'll have to res back on the main island so no corpse camping either. :|

And yeah, the ravagers are pretty far behind. Didnt check if they're tamable but at least there is ravagers in that mine, thats the main thing. :P
#236SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Lodka
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I'm not gonna lie, I just respecced back to MM up until patch 2.1. The reason is it was hell in some places in TK, not usable in Gruul's lair basically, and some spots in SSC it was just insta death. I'm going to wait for the imp pet mend and avoidance and definitely revert back to 41/20/0 after patch. Right now it is just too stressful for these 25 mans.
Howitzer, I read pretty much this whole post (missed a few) and was about to switch after reading it, but decided not to until 2.1. I'm rarely with a shadow priest so I'm sure my pet would be dying often. I do a lot of the pulling in our instances, and we're really starting to get into SSC now (first Tidewalker attempts last night). My question is, when you were BM without eagle eye, were there places in SSC/TK that were any more diffucult for you to pull? I would really like to go 41/20/0 after 2.1, but after seeing some of those crazy pulls up to Tidewalker, I'm wondering if I'll need the extra range to be pulling.
#237SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
orsraunia
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
Sorry for the newb questions inc but..
1) How does +crit affect my pet?
2) How does +AP affect my pet?
(I think my pet gets a % of my AP, no?)
3) Does my pet get a % of my stats like agi and sta or what?

1. it doesn't, as far as i know (not 100% sure)
2. yes, your pet benefits from your AP, getting a % of it. Check your CS for the exact %.
3. your pet gets a portion of your Stamina, sadly it doesnot get anything out from your agility


If you are a BM raiding hunter keep the folowing in mind:

a. Your pet's attack power is not a lot compared to yours (e.g. you can have 1700 and your pet will have about 680 or something). So, Battle Shout, Blessing of Might, e.t.c. increase your pet's DPS a lot! they are very important. If it weren't for all those misses and glancing blows (glancing blows will get reduced after 2.1) the pet would do REALLY awesome damage fully buffed.

b. Your pet doesnot scale that good with your gear (correct me if i am wrong). Its crit chance and +% to hit donot scale. This means that its total dmg will not scale that good.

Last edited by orsraunia : 05/02/07 at 2:31 AM. Reason: typos
#238SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12orsraunia
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Edit: A stupidly easy fix would be to have all haste effects also work on your global cool down. Since heroism/blood lust already do this (iirc) the code is there.

Edit2: All haste effects means our quivers too!
/bow

This is what i believe too.Blizard giving us haste effects, but not letting us fully benefit from them, is just plain stupid.

While other classes like mages, can fully benefit from them.
#239SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
I still think that crit and hit should scale to pet, make say animal handler give say 15% scaling. :|
#240SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12orsraunia
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
Agreed that EW is a pretty solid raid buff, and I haven't done the math to figure out the increase of raid dps compared to the loss of personal dps and party dps from TSA. It's also less important if you usually run in raids with only a few melee classes and hunters.
you miss the point imo... what personal loss of dps ? he he

0/20/41 hunters with appropriate gear setup, will soon outdps MM based hunters. Just wait and see.
#241SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
http://surl.se/pictures/20075/40722.jpg

Rant US general like I did in EU please.

#242SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Acedude
Originally Posted by Lodka View Post
Howitzer, I read pretty much this whole post (missed a few) and was about to switch after reading it, but decided not to until 2.1. I'm rarely with a shadow priest so I'm sure my pet would be dying often. I do a lot of the pulling in our instances, and we're really starting to get into SSC now (first Tidewalker attempts last night). My question is, when you were BM without eagle eye, were there places in SSC/TK that were any more diffucult for you to pull? I would really like to go 41/20/0 after 2.1, but after seeing some of those crazy pulls up to Tidewalker, I'm wondering if I'll need the extra range to be pulling.
Having just specced to 41/20 for raiding, I'd have to say that Chain Healing is our pets' best friend at the moment, even more effective than shadow priests at times.

So far, I haven't missed much of my 41 yard range. Gruul is a bit painful if you're used to stand and shoot at one spot, and the murloc trash before Tidewalker can be a bit tricky, albeit doable with 35 yard range. I can't really comment on anything after that from a personal perspective.
#243SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Monatok
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
http://surl.se/pictures/20075/40722.jpg

Rant US general like I did in EU please.

Not necessarily a rant, but done:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...00371231&sid=1
#244SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Osse
Cheers

http://surl.se/pictures/20075/40735.jpg

There's a pic with "creature not tameable" text. :/

Last edited by Osse : 05/02/07 at 4:43 AM.
#245SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Mech0z
I read about a macro that starts your steadyshot right after your autoshot is fired. Could anyone enlighten me on when to use it and what the macro looks like?
#246SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
http://surl.se/pictures/20075/40722.jpg

Rant US general like I did in EU please.

Wow. The only thing I can say is either this is just another in a long string of hunter-related oversights or someone at Blizzard is just pain malicious towards hunters. I'm leaning towards this being a simple mistake, but gees, talk about silly little things.
#247SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Lodka View Post
Howitzer, I read pretty much this whole post (missed a few) and was about to switch after reading it, but decided not to until 2.1. I'm rarely with a shadow priest so I'm sure my pet would be dying often. I do a lot of the pulling in our instances, and we're really starting to get into SSC now (first Tidewalker attempts last night). My question is, when you were BM without eagle eye, were there places in SSC/TK that were any more diffucult for you to pull? I would really like to go 41/20/0 after 2.1, but after seeing some of those crazy pulls up to Tidewalker, I'm wondering if I'll need the extra range to be pulling.
The only pulls that might pose a problem for you are the murlocs that circle around inside Tidewalker's room. If range is an issue I usually just use eye of the beast and pull surgically with the pet. The loss of 6 yds can be felt, yes, but I didn't have any issue with this in a "PVE" setting otherwise. It didn't "gimp" me at all, put it that way.
#248SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Mech0z View Post
I read about a macro that starts your steadyshot right after your autoshot is fired. Could anyone enlighten me on when to use it and what the macro looks like?
I'd seriously not use this, mate. You're way better off learning when to time your shot weaving manually than through this macro because these things will just end up making you lose shots in the long run trust me.
#249SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Run a 10 minute long test in Blasted Lands or Dr. Boom with and without the macro Howitzer, I'll put a chunk of money for the macro.
#250SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Run a 10 minute long test in Blasted Lands or Dr. Boom with and without the macro Howitzer, I'll put a chunk of money for the macro.
I don't think that's the point - the macro is merely a tool to test with whereas he's saying (and I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth here) "learn to shoot your shots during actual play and you'll do better in the long run". I agree with Howitzer (assuming I understand him correctly).
#251SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Thats exactly what I'm saying Welshy. I think if you're having problems with shot rotations you shouldn't use a macro as a crutch to learn how to TBC Hunter, (since its quite different than prior to 2.0). Better off learning it manually and then using a macro later if you feel you need it due to lag on your end or whatever.
#252SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Run a 10 minute long test in Blasted Lands or Dr. Boom with and without the macro Howitzer, I'll put a chunk of money for the macro.
The macro cannot decide how much time you've got left until your auto shot. The macro prevents ALL clipping. Therefore, even if I'd only clip my autoshot by .1 seconds to get in a steady, it won't cast it. Human judgement > macro. If you need a macro like this to keep up in dps, you either do not understand the math behind efficient cycles and will never do the dps you should, or you're extremely lazy and will still never keep up in dps.
#253SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Greenpiggy
If I were to use that macro it would be during times where I had some overlapping haste procs where i was unsure where my latency cutoff point was.
#254SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
The macro cannot decide how much time you've got left until your auto shot. The macro prevents ALL clipping. Therefore, even if I'd only clip my autoshot by .1 seconds to get in a steady, it won't cast it. Human judgement > macro. If you need a macro like this to keep up in dps, you either do not understand the math behind efficient cycles and will never do the dps you should, or you're extremely lazy and will still never keep up in dps.
That's an excellent point, but here's my counterpoint: If you have 0.1 seconds before clipping an autoshot, you have very little time to react and will probably not approach the theoretical benefit minor clipping would give you. Assuming you KNOW your next shot will clip the autoshot by a tiny amount ahead of time, lets say you know right after you fired your last shot. You now have 1.5 cast time on steady (I'm using steady, perhaps considering arcane or multi would be better?) plus your latency plus your reaction time to get a shot in. I realize that I probably don't have the fastest fingers or best reaction times, but that feels like a very tight squeeze; I'd wager the vast preponderance of raiding hunters wouldn't approach the theoretical benefit of minor clipping. My guess is that most would probably delay the autoshot by enough that they would net less damage.

I'm not trying to endorse using a spam macro (again, I think they are purely testing tools), but realistically when you're getting down to tenths or hundreths of a second in terms of timing, actual practice becomes divergent from theory.
#255SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
That's an excellent point, but here's my counterpoint: If you have 0.1 seconds before clipping an autoshot, you have very little time to react and will probably not approach the theoretical benefit minor clipping would give you. Assuming you KNOW your next shot will clip the autoshot by a tiny amount ahead of time, lets say you know right after you fired your last shot. You now have 1.5 cast time on steady (I'm using steady, perhaps considering arcane or multi would be better?) plus your latency plus your reaction time to get a shot in. I realize that I probably don't have the fastest fingers or best reaction times, but that feels like a very tight squeeze; I'd wager the vast preponderance of raiding hunters wouldn't approach the theoretical benefit of minor clipping. My guess is that most would probably delay the autoshot by enough that they would net less damage.

I'm not trying to endorse using a spam macro (again, I think they are purely testing tools), but realistically when you're getting down to tenths or hundreths of a second in terms of timing, actual practice becomes divergent from theory.
I will admit that I have very low latency and very high reaction time, but there's a simple trick. I keep two bars going, Lemme post a screen real quick to show you an example:

http://imageigloo.com/images/5179Bars.jpg

If you have no instants up, and you think your steady will be close to the auto shot, start it and don't decide yet. You'll see your timers up, if they are very close (like the .2 seconds in this image), let your steady go through. If it's too big of a clip, just step forward, and the steady will be interrupted and the auto will go through on time.
#256SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
I will admit that I have very low latency and very high reaction time, but there's a simple trick. I keep two bars going, Lemme post a screen real quick to show you an example:

http://imageigloo.com/images/5179Bars.jpg

If you have no instants up, and you think your steady will be close to the auto shot, start it and don't decide yet. You'll see your timers up, if they are very close (like the .2 seconds in this image), let your steady go through. If it's too big of a clip, just step forward, and the steady will be interrupted and the auto will go through on time.
I have a similar set up (I don't have a screen to prove it, but I use the "racing bars" method), but I still find that under raid circumstances (~15-20 FPS and 200-250 ms ping) I simply don't have the reaction times to make the squeeze. I fully acknowledge that the circumstances will be different based on player (FPS and ping, that is), but I maintain that most hunters probably won't approach the theoretical benefit (although I agree that the theory does say sometimes clipping yields higher dps).

I think the moral of the story is: practice your shots and learn the rotation. Then do it again. It's the single most important aspect of raiding as a hunter (assuming you're not some kind of weird melee hunter or something). Also, set up your UI so you can see the relative cast times of auto and steady shot (I recommend the 'racing bars', but w/e works for you).
#257SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Nataliah
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
The macro cannot decide how much time you've got left until your auto shot. The macro prevents ALL clipping. Therefore, even if I'd only clip my autoshot by .1 seconds to get in a steady, it won't cast it.
I don't quite understand this part. If I were to press the macro and fire an Auto Shot, wait until there is one second left to fire the next Auto Shot, and I press the macro again, the macro's Steady Shot will begin and clip the next Auto Shot. It doesn't exactly prevent all clipping - it only does so if you're pressing nothing but the macro as fast as you can.

As a Beast Mastery hunter (and even when I was Marksmanship), it wasn't like I could fit in two Steady Shots between auto shots, so I didn't normally encounter the part where I get within .1 second of clipping the next Auto Shot if I were to use a(nother) Steady Shot instead (clipping does happen when I try to use a second special after Steady Shot and before the next Auto Shot, but by firing the second special, I wasn't pressing the macro anyway). If I couldn't fire a Steady Shot immediately after an Auto Shot, say because of global cooldown from squeezing a second special, and I start the Steady Shot late to a point when I will clip the Auto Shot, then the Auto Shot will still be clipped.

The macro does allow for human interaction. We can judge if we should clip an Auto Shot to squeeze in the Steady Shot.
#258SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Osse
I often have latency around 50 and 60 fps. Now.. No matter how perfectly I time the shots using two bars the macro just does more.

I died on the kill go so here's a wipe on Mag, data parsing started when last add died.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=igbirszq25mh5&m

I think thats enough of dps tbh.

And yes, I was clicking. Two groups were handling that.

Last edited by Osse : 05/02/07 at 12:46 PM.
#259SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Daenerys
I agree with some of what Howitzer is preaching (learn the damn class and learn to play it manually before you use tools that do things for you), but I don't get the argument being presented against using the macro. The only argument that makes sense for not using the macro is a situation where you have high latency and you need to cast the steady *before* the Auto goes off. But in normal circumstances (normal for me, anyway), there is no way I could beat the macro for reaction time. I've tried, and I can't do it. And I will go on to suggest that 99% of human beings can't beat it, either.

If you start a Steady and want to cancel it because of your racing bars (I use the same setup, though I like the way your bars look, Bhoris, what do you use?), you can still cancel it if you're using the macro. The only thing the macro is helping you do is cast Steady immediately after Auto fires. You still have to know when you can and cannot use Steady (such as under heavy haste buffs).
#260SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
I will admit that I have very low latency and very high reaction time, but there's a simple trick. I keep two bars going, Lemme post a screen real quick to show you an example:

http://imageigloo.com/images/5179Bars.jpg

If you have no instants up, and you think your steady will be close to the auto shot, start it and don't decide yet. You'll see your timers up, if they are very close (like the .2 seconds in this image), let your steady go through. If it's too big of a clip, just step forward, and the steady will be interrupted and the auto will go through on time.
I use the same thing. I have 2 bars going, one cast bar is part of AG-UF which appears right under my HP bar as well as my target's casting bar, the other is big trouble, you can see them here:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6484/ssvh3.jpg
#261SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Daenerys
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I use the same thing. I have 2 bars going, one cast bar is part of AG-UF which appears right under my HP bar as well as my target's casting bar, the other is big trouble, you can see them here:

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6484/ssvh3.jpg
Off-topic, but I'm curious as to why you use the DS gloves?
#262SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Howitzer
Yours haven't dropped and the Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation I want haven't gone to me yet because of filthy rogues. (I'm not perfect you know =\) Hell, T5 gloves are in reach now. Just a matter of time before I replace these T4 gloves and my shitty T4 shoulders.

Last edited by Howitzer : 05/02/07 at 1:20 PM.
#263SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Jezele
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
I will admit that I have very low latency and very high reaction time, but there's a simple trick. I keep two bars going, Lemme post a screen real quick to show you an example:

http://imageigloo.com/images/5179Bars.jpg
Bhoris, what mod are you using for this? I've been using zHunter so far because I like the aspect switching portion, but I don't think there's an option for comparing the steady-shot cast time.
#264SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
I agree with some of what Howitzer is preaching (learn the damn class and learn to play it manually before you use tools that do things for you)
QFT. I was the OP of the big /castsequence thread in the hunter forms. I posted my rotation macro for my 3.00 speed bow with 5/5 Imp Arcane as an example. Since then I've seen dozens of hunters wondering why the macro doesn't work well for them and their 2.80 bows with 0/5 Imp Arcane. Every day I get lvl 1 alts whispering me and asking me to design a macro for them. Ok, rant off.



You will be able to time shots better manually than with a macro, no doubt there because you can time the steady before the auto goes off. The problem is, that will only start to make a difference when you get into the 2.5 - 2.4 range with iAotH. Currently, all the good epic bows leave a generous amount of slack in the rotations, so the advantage of better timing makes no difference. If Blizz releases some high DPS 2.50 bows then I'll consider manual timing.
#265SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
Originally Posted by Jezele View Post
Bhoris, what mod are you using for this? I've been using zHunter so far because I like the aspect switching portion, but I don't think there's an option for comparing the steady-shot cast time.
My steady shot is just using the default cast bar modded by ECasting Bar (http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/downl...-for-wow-2-0/), and then Big Trouble for the auto shot cast bar (http://www.wowinterface.com/download...gTrouble.html). The default for BT is to show the cast bar for Aimed Shot and Steady Shot also, but just turn these off and let the default cast bar handle these, and BT will show you just the auto shot cast bar.
#266SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Speech
When is arcane shot used? Do you avoid it most of the time and then use it when you have (stacking) haste procs (IAotH + Rapidfire). Do you save it for a movment shot when you have to reposistion? Or, do you use arcane in a regular rotation?
#267SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Nataliah View Post
I don't quite understand this part. If I were to press the macro and fire an Auto Shot, wait until there is one second left to fire the next Auto Shot, and I press the macro again, the macro's Steady Shot will begin and clip the next Auto Shot. It doesn't exactly prevent all clipping - it only does so if you're pressing nothing but the macro as fast as you can.

As a Beast Mastery hunter (and even when I was Marksmanship), it wasn't like I could fit in two Steady Shots between auto shots, so I didn't normally encounter the part where I get within .1 second of clipping the next Auto Shot if I were to use a(nother) Steady Shot instead (clipping does happen when I try to use a second special after Steady Shot and before the next Auto Shot, but by firing the second special, I wasn't pressing the macro anyway). If I couldn't fire a Steady Shot immediately after an Auto Shot, say because of global cooldown from squeezing a second special, and I start the Steady Shot late to a point when I will clip the Auto Shot, then the Auto Shot will still be clipped.

The macro does allow for human interaction. We can judge if we should clip an Auto Shot to squeeze in the Steady Shot.
I think the difference in our interpretation of "prevents clipping" is based on the usage of the macro, not the macro itself. If I turn on autoshot and then try to use the macro, I can force it to clip. If I use the macro to enable autoshot after I fire my first steady, it won't clip.

As far as the macro itself is concerned, I really don't see a point in using it if you're marksman. You have to wedge a second special in before the auto, so the steady macro doesn't really aid you in preventing delay of the autoshot (unless you just spam the hell out of the steady macro and then try to wedge your second special in between button presses, which is kind of a brute force method to things). Once you start to stack haste effects, though, the macro really shines (although you have to tune the macro to reset the timing on it to suit your hasted conditions). Under some extreme cases of stacked haste if you maintain a steady rotation then you either have to be very good at timing shots (I'm not) or be willing to use a macro. Or stop using steady shot.

The point is that you can't just say "I stink at hunter but if I use a macro it'll be OK." It won't. You have to learn to play the class, and that takes practice and time. (I should note I consider myself as a bad hunter, though, so I don't feel condescending when I preach about practicing to improve)
#268SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12NaPoLeoN II
Originally Posted by Jezele View Post
Bhoris, what mod are you using for this? I've been using zHunter so far because I like the aspect switching portion, but I don't think there's an option for comparing the steady-shot cast time.
I simply use eCB and LittleTrouble and make the cast bars with exact same settings. Same Width, Heigth etc.
#269SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12boomix
I use LittleTrouble under PitBull unit frame for my character. PB comes with casting bar so it makes it easy to time shots now and LT mod is light weight I love it.
#270SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Daenerys
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I think the difference in our interpretation of "prevents clipping" is based on the usage of the macro, not the macro itself. If I turn on autoshot and then try to use the macro, I can force it to clip. If I use the macro to enable autoshot after I fire my first steady, it won't clip.

As far as the macro itself is concerned, I really don't see a point in using it if you're marksman. You have to wedge a second special in before the auto, so the steady macro doesn't really aid you in preventing delay of the autoshot (unless you just spam the hell out of the steady macro and then try to wedge your second special in between button presses, which is kind of a brute force method to things). Once you start to stack haste effects, though, the macro really shines (although you have to tune the macro to reset the timing on it to suit your hasted conditions). Under some extreme cases of stacked haste if you maintain a steady rotation then you either have to be very good at timing shots (I'm not) or be willing to use a macro. Or stop using steady shot.

The point is that you can't just say "I stink at hunter but if I use a macro it'll be OK." It won't. You have to learn to play the class, and that takes practice and time. (I should note I consider myself as a bad hunter, though, so I don't feel condescending when I preach about practicing to improve)
When I was Marks, I would spam the macro (it's on my mouse scroll wheel, up and down, so it's super-easy to spam), then stop when Steady starts. Then hit Arcane or whatever, then start spamming again. When haste is active, I just stop putting the second special between Autos. You really only have to spam it right around when Auto is about to fire to get Steady going ASAP after Auto.

PS - I'm just talking about basic Steady/Auto castsequence, not a full rotation with everything and the kitchen sink.
#271SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Iriesaadi
The nice thing about the /castsequence macros is that it allows you to focus more on what is going on around you in the current raid setting, and concentrate more on movement, traps, interupts, your pet, stings, etc. rather than focusing so intently on the shot rotation that you wind up out of position and dead, or, alternatively, you screw up your shot rotation worrying about whatever else it is hunters are supposed to do other than dps.

Also, since you asked for an example, here is an example of the simplest form of steady/auto:
#show Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot,Auto Shot

And a slightly more complex one (not in game to check, one of mine looks something like this) that follows a special-auto-2special-auto-special-auto-2special...etc. to work in some specials while limiting the clipping effect of the GCD:
#show Multi-Shot(Rank 6)
/castsequence reset=3 Multi-Shot,Auto Shot,Steady Shot,Auto Shot,Steady Shot,Arcane Shot,Auto Shot,Steady Shot,Auto Shot,Steady Shot

Obviously no macro will be "perfect" because you only get 250 characters or whatever, so eventually your rotation will need to repeat, and there really is no perfect junction for this for most weapon speeds that incorporate both Arcane and Multi. The best way to make a macro or series of macros is to go out to Area 52 and waste a bunch of ammo on Dr. Boom. Do your shots manually, with the entirety of your focus on timing your shots perfectly following some sort of pattern (i.e. not using multi-shot, when RF is active, full-dps without regard for mana/clipping, or something almost as high in dps but slightly more mana efficient, etc...). Basically, do your shots however you would normally trigger them if attention was focused on nothing but your 4 shots (multi-arcane-steady-auto) and their CD's/cast bars. Once you run OOM or find yourself getting into a pattern, go back into your combat log and basically copy your combat log into a macro. Now go test it out, while spamming your newly created macro, look to see where the potential downfalls might be. Are you clipping auto-shot? Is multi-shot or arcane shot off cooldown for extended periods of time? Use recap, swstats, or any dps counter of your preference and see what your dps looks like with a variety of different macros. Don't be afraid to try something that seems illogical at first, with the variety of weapon speeds and latencys out there you never know.

Now, let's say you found what you think to be a semi-decent macro or two. Now try spamming the macro and looking for the holes in which to perform additional abilities such as stings/traps/trinkets/RF with minimal loss to dps. If you find yourself regularly clipping auto-shot and loosing dps when you fit in a sting, create a macro that allows you to stop spamming for a second and fit in an additional ability. Find where to break off from your macro, move a few yards, and start it up again without getting "that ability is on cooldown" errors.

Now I'm not saying that a macro will ever increase your flat dps in a trial run, even my most heavily used/trusted macros will do slightly lower dps than if I focus my full attention to a more synergized manual shot rotation. However, if you've made a good macro, the difference will be slight. Yes, sometimes if you give a noob hunter a macro for his weapon speed, he will just sit there spamming it with no regard to what is actually happening or what shots he is using, and if he sucked to begin with, his dps will probably go up, but it will never compare to the person that created the macro in the first place and understands how it fits into what he wants to do.

So if you're thinking that this sounds like a lot of work for something that I've told you will lower a smart hunter's dps, why do it in the first place? Well, because frankly some of us (me) can't multi-task very well. When you're watching your health, your consumables, your trinket cooldowns, your pet's health, or especially when leading a raid watching other people's positions, it can sometimes become too overwhelming to watch your own cast-bars as closely as you would under ideal situations. My personal experience is that I end up doing a more damage in a raiding environment using a variety of macros even though I can do slightly more damage with a manual rotation on Dr. Boom tests. Leading a raid + focusing entirely on cast bars leads to either poor dps or other people doing stupid things.
Note: If you are more uber than me you'll do more damage without them, but for us noobs, macros are the way to go

Bah, just realized this is getting way off-topic. I'll bring it back by saying a reason against going BM is that I'll have to spend another few hours creating new macros with the 20% increase. I'm not sure how to work Kill Command into a macro, I would recommend just binding it near your other macros and spamming it whenever you're not in the act of firing steady.

/cheers
#272SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12golemagg
what does the /castsequence reset = 3 in the macro mean?

and how to adjust this for being BM?
#273SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Mech0z
Well I agree that using this macro have removed alot of the "skill" by playing a hunter.. but also I was not able to

Keep my shot rotation
Keep an eye on my pet
Keep an eye on the battle
Etc.

So now I use something like /castseqence reset=3 autoshot, steady shot

And that made me 6 or 7 on damage meters infront of our 2 hunters who have particually better gear :/ you may argue that came to easy.. but I just wanna do alot of damage.
#274SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 selece
If you don't push anything for 3 seconds, the macro resets to the first spell in the cast sequence. That's what the reset does.
#275SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12orsraunia
Originally Posted by Iriesaadi View Post
I'll bring it back by saying a reason against going BM is that I'll have to spend another few hours creating new macros with the 20% increase. I'm not sure how to work Kill Command into a macro, I would recommend just binding it near your other macros and spamming it whenever you're not in the act of firing steady./cheers
i tried the /castsequence macro the last 2 days, for the first time...
it's good if you have latency and you are just standing nuking a boss, but in a lot of boss fights
you have to do more than stand and nuke.

i tested it on Dr. Boom, it didn't increase my dps when i had low latency, but if you have medium latency it helps so you reduce the time between auto shot and the next special.
#276SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Honestly, after switching to BM I stopped using the macro completely. The timing, unless under stacked haste effects, isn't that tight. Since you're not trying to fit two specials between autos (nor would you be able to do so without significant clipping) you can easily fit a single steady or arcane between autos. Likewise, the reset time will probably be a detriment if you frequently get a variety of haste effects (due to inconsistency in attack speed and consequently auto/steady rotation).

I'll bring it back to what has been mentioned before: set up your ui to show racing bars. You need an autoshot timer right below your cast bar; doing so gives you a very very good representation of the rotation timing. I can't recommend this highly enough. The best part of setting things up this way is that once you are accustomed to it, you can time shots by looking at it out the corner of your eye, giving you more flexibility to focus on the actual fight.

As far as which autoshot timer goes, I recommend littletrouble. Bigtrouble apparently is having coding issues and zhunter seems kind of like overkill (although admittedly I have very little experience with zhunter). Littletrouble is lightweight and easy to configure - and looks nice when coupled with pitbull. If you don't have two timers, try it.
#277SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
orsraunia
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I'll bring it back to what has been mentioned before: set up your ui to show racing bars.
i am very interested in this, how can i do this ? do i need a specific UI ? if yes, please reccomend me one (atm using a custom ui, made with Ctmod). Thanks in advance.

Last edited by orsraunia : 05/03/07 at 12:14 PM. Reason: typos
#278SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
i am very interested in this, how can i do this ? do i need a specific UI ? if yes, please reccomend me one (atm using a custom ui, made with Ctmod). Thanks in advance.
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...&postcount=255

Check the screenshot in this post. It's very easy to do: just get an autoshot timer (again, I prefer littletrouble but bigtrouble or zhunter will probably do just fine) and put it very close to your cast bar. When you start to cast steady or another shot, you'll be able to see if you'll clip the autoshot and if so by how much.
#279SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Honestly, after switching to BM I stopped using the macro completely. The timing, unless under stacked haste effects, isn't that tight. Since you're not trying to fit two specials between autos (nor would you be able to do so without significant clipping) you can easily fit a single steady or arcane between autos. Likewise, the reset time will probably be a detriment if you frequently get a variety of haste effects (due to inconsistency in attack speed and consequently auto/steady rotation).

I'll bring it back to what has been mentioned before: set up your ui to show racing bars. You need an autoshot timer right below your cast bar; doing so gives you a very very good representation of the rotation timing. I can't recommend this highly enough. The best part of setting things up this way is that once you are accustomed to it, you can time shots by looking at it out the corner of your eye, giving you more flexibility to focus on the actual fight.

As far as which autoshot timer goes, I recommend littletrouble. Bigtrouble apparently is having coding issues and zhunter seems kind of like overkill (although admittedly I have very little experience with zhunter). Littletrouble is lightweight and easy to configure - and looks nice when coupled with pitbull. If you don't have two timers, try it.
I can understand using the macro with a 0/4x/x build without the fear of quick shot procs messing up your rotation on your /castsequence macro. But I agree with you, with a BM spec it is way too hectic at times to rely on a macro as I believe you'll get way more DPS out of your rotations if you're manually timing everything on the fly.

Anyways, on topic, I made a thread on the Test realm forums hoping that the devs actually read concerns there. Since this thread and other ones on this forum have so many people who know a lot about the class I think you should voice your concerns there as well. Who knows if Tigole will actually read this thread and the other ones here at EJ? =)

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...01280450&sid=1
#280SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
orsraunia
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Anyways, on topic, I made a thread on the Test realm forums hoping that the devs actually read concerns there. Since this thread and other ones on this forum have so many people who know a lot about the class I think you should voice your concerns there as well. Who knows if Tigole will actually read this thread and the other ones here at EJ? =)

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...01280450&sid=1
I really liked your post, well constructed, adresses the real problems of our class.

The issue is that a lot of people flame posters like you, even when the posts are constructive ones, becasue they are "scared" of hunters getting a fair buff and thus, those who are at the top of their game, being able to outdps mages/rogues/warlocks (of equal value of gear).

BUT, dps is not our only issue, utility is. solution ?

1. Buff Misdirection in a way so 1st shot misdirects 3x threat, 2nd shot 2x threat, 3rd shot 1x threat. (increased utility)
2. Make silencing shot able to interupt bosses' spells, when they are immune to silence or make scatter shot an interrupt. (increased utility)
3. Expose Weakness to give +SD against the target, in addition to the AP it grants. (better synergy)
4. TSA to grant AP + some SD (increased synergy).

These are just some thoughts... i mean if i can come up with some ideas in like 5 min, how is it possible the devs of our class to have none solution after so long time that these problems (utility of our class) exist ?

What i wish is devs to go through the same endeavour, a hunter trying to get a raiding guild goes through. Maybe then they will understand...

Last edited by orsraunia : 05/04/07 at 12:36 PM.
#281SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
I really liked your post, well constructed, adresses the real problems of our class.

The issue is that most people flame people like you, even when the posts are constructed ones, becasue they are scared of hunters getting a fair buff and thus, those who are at the top of their game being able to outdps mages/rogues/warlocks (of equal value of gear).

BUT, dps is not our only issue, utility is. solution ?

1. Buff Misdirection in a way so 1st shot misdirects 3x threat, 2nd shot 2x threat, 3rd shot 1x threat. (increased utility)
2. Make silencing shot able to interupt bosses' spells, when they are immune to silence or make scatter shot an interrupt. (increased utility)
3. Expose Weakness to give +SD against the target, in addition to the AP it grants. (better synergy)
4. TSA to grant AP + some SD (increased synergy).

These are just some thoughts... i mean if i can come up with some ideas in like 5 min, how is it possible the devs of our class to have none solution after so long time that these problems (utility of our class) exist ?

What i wish is devs to go through the same endeavour, a hunter trying to get a raiding guild goes through. Maybe then they will understand...
In line with other "alternative buffs" I'd say make EW similar to FI: simply increase all incoming damage to the target by a fixed percentange. That would make survival a very valuable raid spec - even if the damage were low (not saying it is) it could provide a nice raid buff to make up the difference. Really it would be all that different from blood frenzy - just decrease the percentage and make it apply to all incoming damage.

I agree, however: if they are unwilling to buff our damage to be competitive, at least increase our utility.
#282SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12orsraunia
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
In line with other "alternative buffs" I'd say make EW similar to FI: simply increase all incoming damage to the target by a fixed percentange. That would make survival a very valuable raid spec - even if the damage were low (not saying it is) it could provide a nice raid buff to make up the difference.
fine with me, as long as it stays a talent that scales as good as it does now.
Actually, we need more talents that scale as good as EW does.
#283SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Well, the thing that bothers me, (and always has), is the straight up lack of responses from the developers or even a lowly CM on the hundreds and thousands of threads across the web about these concerns. The BM tree is obviously getting a little love in this next patch but the problems are so much deeper than that as you all know. A simple acknowledgment from a blizzard rep to let me and others know that our input and hours of testing and theorycrafting the class is not in vein.
#284SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Well, the thing that bothers me, (and always has), is the straight up lack of responses from the developers or even a lowly CM on the hundreds and thousands of threads across the web about these concerns. The BM tree is obviously getting a little love in this next patch but the problems are so much deeper than that as you all know. A simple acknowledgment from a blizzard rep to let me and others know that our input and hours of testing and theorycrafting the class is not in vein.
This may not be the right place to discuss this, but here are my thoughts on that: I theorycraft because I like thinking about math and games. Optimization and modeling are interesting to me (even if I'm not the best at it - which I'm certainly not). However, when you have a community of passionate people who spend many hours testing and verifying theory that they've spent many hours developing, you shouldn't dismiss them.

Now, I'm not saying we're being dismissed nor do I expect the developers of the game to bend to my (or our) whims. If they disagree with our concerns or have plans to take things a different way, I'm ok with that. If they feel they don't have to respond to the concerns we raise, I'm ok with that (god knows how many threads get spawned to complain about some buff or nerf, whether slight or great, perceived or actual). I also recognize that it is not an easy job to communicate between the developers and the players; someone always wants to put your head on a platter. It's tough.

However, a simple acknowledgment of the effort put forth by the community at large would be nice. Even saying "We recognize that many of you have spent a great deal of time discussing issues that you believe exist with the game. We're always looking to improve the game and will take these under consideration, but understand that ultimately any changes that are enacted have to originate from the development community within the company. Thank you for showing your continued interest in aiding in the development of the game and know that we ARE listening and seeking input from the player base." Yes, it's PR speak, but it's better than the relative silence to which we've grown accustomed.
#285SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Valkyrus
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Well, the thing that bothers me, (and always has), is the straight up lack of responses from the developers or even a lowly CM on the hundreds and thousands of threads across the web about these concerns. The BM tree is obviously getting a little love in this next patch but the problems are so much deeper than that as you all know. A simple acknowledgment from a blizzard rep to let me and others know that our input and hours of testing and theorycrafting the class is not in vein.
I feel that the reason we rarely, if ever, recieve feedback on our concerns is the fact that Blizzard has NO idea what they want to do with our class.

They keep applying band-aids in hopes that they get a better idea, or get close to the "fixed" mark, but keep falling short.
#286SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12beann
I was formulating a long post with many questions, and as is often the case, I answered most of them as I thought through the post. However, I would still be much obliged if one of the more experienced hunters in this thread could either run a few things through a spread sheet or point me to a post where these have already been run through. Beind at work, I do not have the time at the present to really flesh these out.

Rotation 1 - this is what I assume those testing the new BM raid spec are using.

2.9-3.1 speed weapon

Tight MM rotation weaving arcane and multi in between auto/steady (made tighter by SS)
switching to straight steady, auto during special hastes.

Rotation 2 - a comparable alternative?

2.1-2.4 speed weapon

strict steady, auto as close to the edge of 1.5 with base haste as possible
switching to auto, arcane/multi during special hastes.

My main questions are about Rotation 2.

1)If Rotation 1 is the standard, how does 2 compare in terms of DPS, DPM? (aside from being nearly fool-proof with a steady, auto castsequence macro)
2)Are special hastes(IAotH, RF, Trophy, etc) wasted on Rotation 2?
3)Is there an increase in shots per minute in Rotation 2 and thus procs of IAotH, GFTT, Mark of Conquest, JoW, etc?
4)Is there any reason a hunter might switch between these mid fight? (for example if 2 turns out to be more mana efficient at a minimal dps loss)

I realize this is a bit of work on the modeling side, but I am hoping some reasoned estimations might be in order. I apologize if I am missing the answers to these questions. Perhaps they are more obvious than I realize.
#287SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Shandara
Originally Posted by Valkyrus View Post
I feel that the reason we rarely, if ever, recieve feedback on our concerns is the fact that Blizzard has NO idea what they want to do with our class.

They keep applying band-aids in hopes that they get a better idea, or get close to the "fixed" mark, but keep falling short.
It's more that they are afraid to redesign the class mechanics, I guess. Stuck halfway between melee and caster dps as we are..
#288SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Harwin
Originally Posted by beann View Post
Rotation 2 - a comparable alternative?

2.1-2.4 speed weapon

strict steady, auto as close to the edge of 1.5 with base haste as possible
switching to auto, arcane/multi during special hastes.

My main questions are about Rotation 2.

1)If Rotation 1 is the standard, how does 2 compare in terms of DPS, DPM? (aside from being nearly fool-proof with a steady, auto castsequence macro)
2)Are special hastes(IAotH, RF, Trophy, etc) wasted on Rotation 2?
3)Is there an increase in shots per minute in Rotation 2 and thus procs of IAotH, GFTT, Mark of Conquest, JoW, etc?
4)Is there any reason a hunter might switch between these mid fight? (for example if 2 turns out to be more mana efficient at a minimal dps loss)

I realize this is a bit of work on the modeling side, but I am hoping some reasoned estimations might be in order. I apologize if I am missing the answers to these questions. Perhaps they are more obvious than I realize.
I currently use a 2.6 speed bow - Lohn'goron. Partly this is because only 2 higher DPS weapons have dropped for me - the 2.4 from Shattered Halls (Skyfire) and the 3.0 from Black Morass (Twilight Longbow). With static haste (SS + Quiver) the 2.6 bow is 1.88. In practice I can't seem to cycle my steady faster than about 1.9 anyway with static haste, so that bow seems pretty optimal. Any slower and I'd either waste time or have to fire much less mana efficient shot. Any faster and I'd absolutely be wasting time.

Procs seem roughly ok for me. I don't get the full benefit, since my reaction time + lag delay is constant, but at least the steadyshot cast gets faster too. And as far as damage goes, I seem to do just fine, competing reasonably with the other hunters, who are MM and using Wolfslayer + Prince Bow.

I have been worried about spending DKP on the Dragonspine trophy until I get a slower bow - right now it seems like I just wouldn't get enough benefit out of it. Ideally I think I'd want a 2.7-2.8 speed bow - I'd waste a little time on steady-auto cycles, but get full benefit out of haste cycles, and have a little more leeway for post 2.1 kill command.

I just found it personally impractical to use a 2.4 speed base bow. Yeah, with anticipating lag on the autoshot bar etc I could sometimes get those shots in faster, but I'd also clip shots occasionally, and I'd much rather lose 10% of my time every shot than clip 10% of my shots, since they do around the same damage but the second costs me more mana.


NOTE: My damage amounts are based on anecdotal, not rigorously tested experience. My bow timings however are based on actual combat logs (I've still got all 3 bows in case mechanics change)
#289SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
I think the prime example of hunters being ignored is the feign death issue. After the change on this (ie the 2 to 3 second delay between hitting it and actually dropping combat), I figured this was just another intended class change that they never specifically state. Then, Blue confirmed it as a bug.

Just a brief follow-up, this is going to be fixed in the next patch. (No I can't tell you exactly when that will be, sorry.) We'll be keeping an eye on things as always in case anything else crops up with it.
The next month, early February, we were reassured that

Feign Death is still an issue that is being worked on. Once we know the fix is good and we're going to be putting it in, we'll try to let you know.
Yet, FD has not been addressed in game or in the patch notes. Not only that, but they haven't even remarked on the issue since this post.

Source: http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/65156879.htm
#290SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Acedude
I have a question regarding stat selection with BM spec.

I am in the process of resocketing some of my gear, mainly the Ebon Netherscale set. So far, from my 1+ weeks of personal experience, my pet makes up about 1/4 to 1/3 of my total damage output. Since 22% of my RAP goes to pet AP, and frenzy/BW scales with pet AP, it makes sense for a BM hunter to stack AP.

However, I have always been a fan of crit over RAP. When i was marks, I was running with 2100 RAP and 27% crit self buffed. While pet is 1/3 of my damage, 2/3 of the damage still comes from me shooting. Stacking AP gems makes me feel like that I'm gimping my own damage in the process of buffing the pet. With BoK readily available in raid (so it is comparing 1.1 agi to 2 ap), and considering GFTT and Hourglass procs, I still find myself socketing my gears with +8 agi over +16 ap.

Now the above outlines my limited understanding of the BM spec, and I am wondering if any of you here can shed some light for me regarding the issue.
#291SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Acedude View Post
I have a question regarding stat selection with BM spec.

I am in the process of resocketing some of my gear, mainly the Ebon Netherscale set. So far, from my 1+ weeks of personal experience, my pet makes up about 1/4 to 1/3 of my total damage output. Since 22% of my RAP goes to pet AP, and frenzy/BW scales with pet AP, it makes sense for a BM hunter to stack AP.

However, I have always been a fan of crit over RAP. When i was marks, I was running with 2100 RAP and 27% crit self buffed. While pet is 1/3 of my damage, 2/3 of the damage still comes from me shooting. Stacking AP gems makes me feel like that I'm gimping my own damage in the process of buffing the pet. With BoK readily available in raid (so it is comparing 1.1 agi to 2 ap), and considering GFTT and Hourglass procs, I still find myself socketing my gears with +8 agi over +16 ap.

Now the above outlines my limited understanding of the BM spec, and I am wondering if any of you here can shed some light for me regarding the issue.
I would balance the two. Make sure your hit rating is maxed since you have no surefooted, make sure you're at or between 1750-1900 self buffed RAP as BM, and try to maintain a 25% crit rating at least with raid buffs / pots, etc. If you do that, you should be good to go. I would never stack totally on RAP, thats not logical.
#292SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Stefan
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I would balance the two. Make sure your hit rating is maxed since you have no surefooted, make sure you're at or between 1750-1900 self buffed RAP as BM, and try to maintain a 25% crit rating at least with raid buffs / pots, etc. If you do that, you should be good to go. I would never stack totally on RAP, thats not logical.
What blue socket would you suggest using? I plan on re-socketing all my items for 2.1, and just follow the socket color.

What im thinking is rotating the 16 AP gem and the 8 agi gem so i keep a balance.

Anyway, my real concern are the blue and yellow gems.
blue - 4 crit and 6 stam or 4 agi and 6 stam - leaning towards 4 agi one : /

yellow - 8 crit rating or 4 agi and 4 hit - if my his isn't at 5% then ill probally do the hit one, otherwise im thinking 8 crit rating.

all input would be appreciated.
#293SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Jide
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
yellow - 8 crit rating or 4 agi and 4 hit - if my his isn't at 5% then ill probally do the hit one, otherwise im thinking 8 crit rating.
I would personally go with the 4 agi 4 hit if not at the hit cap (8.6%).
#294SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Acedude
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
What blue socket would you suggest using? I plan on re-socketing all my items for 2.1, and just follow the socket color.

What im thinking is rotating the 16 AP gem and the 8 agi gem so i keep a balance.

Anyway, my real concern are the blue and yellow gems.
blue - 4 crit and 6 stam or 4 agi and 6 stam - leaning towards 4 agi one : /

yellow - 8 crit rating or 4 agi and 4 hit - if my his isn't at 5% then ill probally do the hit one, otherwise im thinking 8 crit rating.

all input would be appreciated.
Blue sockets are horrible for DPS gears. If the socket bonus is comparable to what you lose for matching socket color (such as in the case of Gloves of Quickening, where you lose 1 Agi and gain 4 Stam), I'd almost always use 4Agi one over 4Crit. Otherwise, for something such as Ebon Netherscale Breastplate, I'd ignore the socket bonus and go with 3 rubies.

Rating for rating, Hit always > Crit when you're not at the max hit cap of 8.6%. Also, Agi is almost always superior than crit, unless you have insane amount of RAP with gimpy crit %.
#295SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Grogzor
If you are going to replace them with 2.1, I suggest

Infused Nightseye
+8 Attack Power and +2 Mana every 5 seconds
"Matches a Red or Blue Socket."

for the blue gems.
#296SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Are there any new red/yellow gems that are interesting to get specifically for us in 2.1? I see this new Infused Nightseye but haven't noticed the others. I know about the new Consortium metagem which will be sweet.
#297SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12golemagg
http://www.whataboutpp.com/index.php...daa9&topic=8.0


Look at the rare gems with the new Noble Topaz and a Nightseye. I don't know how to link items or I would have.
#298SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Stefan
[Wicked Noble Topaz]: +4 Critical Strike Rating and +8 Attack Power | Red / Yellow

thats a pretty good yellow gem.

so it looks like ill be rotating 8 agi and 16 AP for red

for blue
[Infused Nightseye]: +8 Attack Power and +2 Mana every 5 seconds | Red / Blue

and for yellow
[Wicked Noble Topaz]: +4 Critical Strike Rating and +8 Attack Power | Red / Yellow
#299SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
8 agi / 40 agi = 0.20% crit
0.20 * 22.1 = 4.42 crit rating

So an 8 agi gem is 8 AP and 4.42 crit rating, whereas the noble topaz is 8 AP and 4 crit rating. Minor difference, but 8 Agi is still better.
#300SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
8 agi = 8.8 agi in raids, 10.12 if you're survival. :p
#301SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Dunno, I'm still leaning heavily towards full BM when 2.1 hits man. Its just been murder on the PTR with DPS testing.
#302SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12AndrewCarr
I know this isn't a 2.1 issue, but do pets chain flame wreath again? I've heard that they'd accidently changed it back to how it was. I'd like to respec BM tonight and try it out(since 1k latency ruins my shot rotation, and hopefully BM will help that, and offload some of my dps to my pet) but I also don't want to see my pet get the raid wasted either.
#303SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by AndrewCarr View Post
I know this isn't a 2.1 issue, but do pets chain flame wreath again? I've heard that they'd accidently changed it back to how it was. I'd like to respec BM tonight and try it out(since 1k latency ruins my shot rotation, and hopefully BM will help that, and offload some of my dps to my pet) but I also don't want to see my pet get the raid wasted either.
I can speak to this: I had been using my pet on Aran with no issues at all up until last week, when he set off a flame wreath. As far as I can tell, the only thing I did differently was resurrect my pet (I don't remember why, just that I resurrected him) and it set off the flame wreath in which I was standing. The typical rule of thumb I use is "No one can enter or leave a flame wreath without setting it off", but since my pet hadn't been detonating the raid I didn't think it was an issue. I doubt I'll be able to test it tonight when we do Aran, but I'll ask the raid if they mind if I test it (or perhaps testing this would be better done on the PTR, I don't know).

So as far as I'm concerned, there are a couple possible issues:
1) resurrecting a pet sets off flame wreath
2) they changed things so pets now detonate flame wreath all the time
3) we all were incredibly lucky and never set off a flame wreath before, and nothing has changed

I would say 1 and 2 are far more likely, but I don't have enough evidence to conclude between those two.
#304SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Fugazor
Did some more tests on 2.1 PTR.

Builds used:
MM: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VxbZVEoRVzGestch
BM: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=meb00xgRwuVoVxbRV

Results (SWS 2.1 Beta):
MM High ~ 895 DPS
MM Low ~ 850 DPS
MM Pet ~ 120 DPS

BM High ~ 860 DPS
BM Low ~ 820 DPS
BM Pet ~ 250 DPS

How:
I pulled badlands mob, let pet gain around 10k threat and then in "same" secound: started rotation, marked target and turned on SWS counting. After around 2min (HM end and/or OOM) I turned off SWS. Did 3 tries each build, then removed crit and calculated avarange, then added assumed crit and miss ratios (see notes).

Notes:
- High: arcane9, multi6, steady1
- Low: multi1, steady1
- One special between autos (2 are impossible due to 500ms ping)
- KC not used (I think it is crap + reason above)
- MM 21,5% crit (due to barrage), BM 20% crit, MM pet 5% crit, BM pet 15% crit
- MM/BM hunter 0% miss, MM pet 8.6% miss, BM hunter 4.6% miss
- -5% to pet damage due to 2.1 glancing
- victim was good old badlands mob (but with crit/miss adjusted after)
- DPS lasted ~2min, HM active (0 stacks at start), rapid fire, trinket and BW used once per 2min
- Gear was mix of T5 + phoenix bow (with +12 scope)

Conclusion:
Which is better? Answer is: "Depends on encounter". MM is safer and also uses less mana. On the other side BM can outdps MM while encounter is pet friendy.

Anyway what concerns me is very poor damage/mana with high rank shots used. If you look at results we gain ~10% damage for DOUBLE mana usage. I think something is terribly wrong here...

Sometimes I think Blizzard want us to be that way:
Turn on Viper, put HM on target and spam steady!

EDIT: Forgot 5% dodge for pets. Now I am thinking about real % of pet dps due to pet unfriendly encounters/abilities, positioning (parry) etc. I think 50% would be safe to assume? Also MM hunter probably scale better with raid buffs.

Last edited by Fugazor : 05/09/07 at 5:27 PM.
#305SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Optimized
I'm wondering what encounters ARE pet friendly. The main bosses I have seen are
Maulgar- pet not really useful as I'm typically tanking the shaman guy in NR gear, I suppose I can switch the pet to hit the dps target but typically I just try to keep the shaman situated
Gruul- Dies to stone/cave in quite often
Magtheridon- Dies to adds but if you are vigilent it can survive Magtheridon himself provided the blast waves are stopped immediately, and Magtheridon doesn't conflag the pet too much
Hydross- seems to die once he gets the Poison Dot
Tidewalker- Dies to earthquake
Karathress- not too bad, priest boss AOE chews him up a fair amount but this one isn't that bad
Void Reaver- seems to die pretty quickly to melee Pound

I haven't been on the PTR to be honest so I don't know how big of a benefit the new HOT and avoidance are going to be, but it seems that you would almost always have to have that HOT up for it to be able to heal enough to keep the pet alive. I know that right now it is too much of a mana drain to try to Mend pet everytime it gets hit by conflag/earthquake/ground pound.

All in all I am very excited by what I read here and think the community has supported that on pet friendly encounters BM is superior to Marksmanship. However, I'm wondering if there are enough pet friendly encounters to justify this. From what I have seen there is not.
#306SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Klauso
Originally Posted by AndrewCarr View Post
I know this isn't a 2.1 issue, but do pets chain flame wreath again? I've heard that they'd accidently changed it back to how it was. I'd like to respec BM tonight and try it out(since 1k latency ruins my shot rotation, and hopefully BM will help that, and offload some of my dps to my pet) but I also don't want to see my pet get the raid wasted either.
Last week my pet set off the flame wreath. Was in melee range with Aran - flame wreath was cast hitting a couple melee - Aran moved - the pet moved to stay in melee and boooom.

For now I am dismissing or leaving my pet on stay for the encounter.
#307SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
I really can't argue too much with you, since my guild hasn't cleared Magtheridon yet and I have no SSC/TK experience. I can say that many of the fights in which a pet IS usable don't really feel as though they benefit from the extra dps all that much. What I mean by that is that for many fights where I can keep my pet alive, a rogue, fury warrior, or enhancement shaman more than makes up for the damage I gain by being able to stay in melee and keep pounding the boss. I guess this isn't clear, but let me make an analogy:

My Honda Civic goes faster when it gets gas, but a Ferrari would go faster with gas. If you liken the ability of classes to stay in melee on certain fights to gasoline, you quickly see how a Honda Civic (BM) becomes a less desirable option to a Ferrari (heavy melee dps). Perhaps I'm rambling, let me wrap this up. I'm not sure of the percentage of encounters where you can EASILY keep your pet alive (you can keep your pet alive on any encounter by dismissing him, but that's irrelevant). I DO know that BM is more dps than MM with the pet alive. It now becomes a question of economics: Do I take the small gain for the majority of fights or do I take the large gain from BM on the minority of fights where my pet doesn't die quickly?
#308SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Harwin
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I can speak to this: I had been using my pet on Aran with no issues at all up until last week, when he set off a flame wreath. As far as I can tell, the only thing I did differently was resurrect my pet (I don't remember why, just that I resurrected him) and it set off the flame wreath in which I was standing. The typical rule of thumb I use is "No one can enter or leave a flame wreath without setting it off", but since my pet hadn't been detonating the raid I didn't think it was an issue. I doubt I'll be able to test it tonight when we do Aran, but I'll ask the raid if they mind if I test it (or perhaps testing this would be better done on the PTR, I don't know).

So as far as I'm concerned, there are a couple possible issues:
1) resurrecting a pet sets off flame wreath
2) they changed things so pets now detonate flame wreath all the time
3) we all were incredibly lucky and never set off a flame wreath before, and nothing has changed

I would say 1 and 2 are far more likely, but I don't have enough evidence to conclude between those two.
We had a snake from a snake trap set off flame wreath last week.

I've always acted as if my pet could set off flame wreath - I just hit STAY as soon as I see it casting and turn it back off afterwards. So I can't tell you if you're hitting issue #2 or #3, but I'm pretty sure you're not hitting issue #1.

Aran is in fact almost my ideal "difficult to handle pet but possible" encounter. Everything can be done with stay/follow attack/passive. You can't use him all the time (Flame Wreath unless no melee gets it, arcane explosion, etc), but you can use him a lot of the time. It gives me something difficult but possible to manage. I like Prince for the same reason.
#309SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12sasukekun
Originally Posted by Optimized View Post
I'm wondering what encounters ARE pet friendly. The main bosses I have seen are
Maulgar- pet not really useful as I'm typically tanking the shaman guy in NR gear, I suppose I can switch the pet to hit the dps target but typically I just try to keep the shaman situated
Gruul- Dies to stone/cave in quite often
Magtheridon- Dies to adds but if you are vigilent it can survive Magtheridon himself provided the blast waves are stopped immediately, and Magtheridon doesn't conflag the pet too much
Hydross- seems to die once he gets the Poison Dot
Tidewalker- Dies to earthquake
Karathress- not too bad, priest boss AOE chews him up a fair amount but this one isn't that bad
Void Reaver- seems to die pretty quickly to melee Pound

I haven't been on the PTR to be honest so I don't know how big of a benefit the new HOT and avoidance are going to be, but it seems that you would almost always have to have that HOT up for it to be able to heal enough to keep the pet alive. I know that right now it is too much of a mana drain to try to Mend pet everytime it gets hit by conflag/earthquake/ground pound.

All in all I am very excited by what I read here and think the community has supported that on pet friendly encounters BM is superior to Marksmanship. However, I'm wondering if there are enough pet friendly encounters to justify this. From what I have seen there is not.
I recently respecced BM with another hunter just to test it out. 2p Riftstalker set bonus helps a lot (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=37499). 15% proc rate, although I have not seen it crit, but I havent really been watching it either.

And so far we've noticed that:

Maulgar: Yes, dies to Whirlwind if you dont micro-manage your pet.

Gruul: Died a few times to cave-in since pets take full duration Stoned (30s i think)

Magtheridon: Can die, but if done correctly will live most of the fight without having to micro-manage too much.

Hydross: Easy, havent had him die yet. Just need to call back during transitions.

Lurker: I dont even use my pet since I stay on the small platforms the entire time. This fight is terrible for a BM hunter.

Tidewalker: 2p Riftstalker set bonus helps a lot for this. Also pet taking chain heals will live most of the time until I get watery graved and hit my own pet with tomb.

Karathress: Agreed, priest AoE waterbolt pretty much kills my pet every time if meleeing. I usually dont even use my pet for that one add.

Void Reaver: Terrible now with it taking 6-8k Pound damage every 10 seconds or so.

Solarian: Easy if pets receives chain heals.

Alar: Right now, will die most of the time to the flame buffet if it's 4+ ticks.

As for pet mend on PTR (heals for 425/tick, 2800 total if I remember correctly.). It should be fine, but pets will still need heals.
#310SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12AndrewCarr
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I can speak to this: I had been using my pet on Aran with no issues at all up until last week, when he set off a flame wreath. As far as I can tell, the only thing I did differently was resurrect my pet (I don't remember why, just that I resurrected him) and it set off the flame wreath in which I was standing. The typical rule of thumb I use is "No one can enter or leave a flame wreath without setting it off", but since my pet hadn't been detonating the raid I didn't think it was an issue. I doubt I'll be able to test it tonight when we do Aran, but I'll ask the raid if they mind if I test it (or perhaps testing this would be better done on the PTR, I don't know).

So as far as I'm concerned, there are a couple possible issues:
1) resurrecting a pet sets off flame wreath
2) they changed things so pets now detonate flame wreath all the time
3) we all were incredibly lucky and never set off a flame wreath before, and nothing has changed

I would say 1 and 2 are far more likely, but I don't have enough evidence to conclude between those two.
I've chained flame wreath because I fd'd and drank(was deadzoned) before iirc, so the pet rez thing may be a similarly odd occurrence. Not really movement, at least as I consider movement, but maybe it bypassed the "no pets will chain flame wreath" thing. It just seems too miraculous that a pet alive for the majority of Aran wouldn't eventually trigger it.


[Edit:] I'd consider Maulgar an acceptable fight for pets. You can have it dpsing the adds, and possibly OTing olm for 1-2 hits if your tanking is sucky. Whirlwinds in the later stage don't seem to be much of a problem either. And although they can easily kill your pet, once you get the adds down the fight's basically over. And the pet can help you down adds better while you're OTing Kiggler.
#311SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by AndrewCarr View Post
I've chained flame wreath because I fd'd and drank(was deadzoned) before iirc, so the pet rez thing may be a similarly odd occurrence. Not really movement, at least as I consider movement, but maybe it bypassed the "no pets will chain flame wreath" thing. It just seems too miraculous that a pet alive for the majority of Aran wouldn't eventually trigger it.
Well, as for FD/drink in flame wreath, as far as I can tell it considers getting up from FD to be someone entering a flamewreath and sets it off. I've seen the same thing with paladins and BoP/DS - when the buff expires, they gain flamewreath and explode. It's kind of funky how it works. My best guess as to the mechanics of this is that it checks to see if someone has gained/lost the buff after the initial cast - so if someone 'exits' the ring (by either walking, DSing, or FDing) they'll lose the buff. If you rez someone into your flame wreath, it appears to consider them as gaining the buff and detonates the ring. Kind of funky, but that makes sense to me.

I don't even bother with my pet on Aran most of the time - Aran always seems to arcane missle my pet and our interrupters always seem to fail to interrupt. Anyway, IF Aran didn't single target cast massive spells on your pet and IF pets didn't set off flame wreath, I would use my pet. This week I'm just going to put him on stay outside the door so I can get the FF buff and leave it at that.

Edit:
Maulgar is funky for pets. We tank Kiggler over by the gate leading to Gruul and then tank Blindeye on the path leading into Maulgar's room - all the way on the other side of the room. My pet usually despawns if I send him to Blindeye, so I either have to put him on Olm or just have him stand next to me and get arcane aoe'd to death by Kiggler. For a fight with as much potental AoE as the Maulgar encounter, though, it's surprisingly easy to keep your pet alive.
#312SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Bhoris
Originally Posted by Fugazor View Post
Did some more tests on 2.1 PTR.

Builds used:
MM: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=VxbZVEoRVzGestch
BM: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=meb00xgRwuVoVxbRV

Results (SWS 2.1 Beta):
MM High ~ 895 DPS
MM Low ~ 850 DPS
MM Pet ~ 130 DPS

BM High ~ 860 DPS
BM Low ~ 820 DPS
BM Pet ~ 270 DPS

How:
I pulled badlands mob, let pet gain around 10k threat and then in "same" secound: started rotation, marked target and turned on SWS counting. After around 2min (HM end and/or OOM) I turned off SWS. Did 3 tries each build, then removed crit and calculated avarange, then added assumed crit and miss ratios (see notes).

Notes:
- High: arcane9, multi6, steady1
- Low: multi1, steady1
- One special between autos (2 are impossible due to 500ms ping)
- KC not used (I think it is crap + reason above)
- MM 21,5% crit (due to barrage), BM 20% crit, MM pet 5% crit, BM pet 15% crit
- MM/BM hunter 0% miss, MM pet 8.6% miss, BM hunter 4.6% miss
- -5% to pet damage due to 2.1 glancing
- victim was good old badlands mob (but with crit/miss adjusted after)
- DPS lasted ~2min, HM active (0 stacks at start), rapid fire, trinket and BW used once per 2min
- Gear was mix of T5 + phoenix bow (with +12 scope)

Conclusion:
Which is better? Answer is: "Depends on encounter". MM is safer and also uses less mana. On the other side BM can outdps MM while encounter is pet friendy.

Anyway what concerns me is very poor damage/mana with high rank shots used. If you look at results we gain ~10% damage for DOUBLE mana usage. I think something is terribly wrong here...

Sometimes I think Blizzard want us to be that way:
Turn on Viper, put HM on target and spam steady!
Once again, these tests are highly inaccurate due to the level of the mobs. BM obviously depends a lot on the pet, and the low level of these mobs means basically no misses and no glancing blows, which is very much not the case in boss fights. Due to damage multipliers in BM, a BM pet on those mobs will scale exponentially larger in terms of damage due to the mob's low armor.

As for Aran, they fixed him for a couple of weeks so that pets would and immunities would not set off flame wreathe. The same hotfix, they made it so that snakes from snake trap are considered pets (which is why they started showing up in your combat log if you have pet dmg turned on). After a couple of weeks, they had another hotfix and it broke the fight again. They say it's supposed to be fixed in 2.1.
#313SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Fugazor
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
Once again, these tests are highly inaccurate due to the level of the mobs. BM obviously depends a lot on the pet, and the low level of these mobs means basically no misses and no glancing blows
Please read! Miss and glancing blows are included and I did lower DPS of pets. I forgot 5% dodge which I am going to fix now.

As for encounters:
King - send it for priest/warlock while tanking shaman then just send it in for king and call back when WW soon
Gruul - mostly luck based with cave in also huge dps loss due to stoned
Mag - P1 can be bad if people do not know how to interrupt, then it is pet paradise unless very unlucky

Myself I think I will go back to MM, was fun to try BM but it is like pre-TBC: later bosses have more and more anti pet features.

Last edited by Fugazor : 05/09/07 at 5:32 PM.
#314SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Reipin Pillage
I never have a problem with pet on Maulgar...

Myself and another hunter hold aggro on Kiggler and send pet in on Kiggler after we have solid aggro, he lives just fine. After kiggler is down I just micro him in and out on whirlwinds.

My guild is very good about giving me a shadow priest and buffing my pet since I am BM so on fights like doomwalker or Tidewalker my pet lives way more often then it dies. With raid buffs I can get my pet over 9K hps. Over 10K with warlock. I use a Windserpent.

Lurker I just use him to get off one TBW before he gets smoked ;p

FYI, owl pets can't swim with Eyes of the Beast I tried to move my owl off the small platform to the middle platform and he sunk like a rock Windserpents, however, are good to go :p
#315SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by sasukekun View Post
I recently respecced BM with another hunter just to test it out. 2p Riftstalker set bonus helps a lot (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=37499). 15% proc rate, although I have not seen it crit, but I havent really been watching it either.

And so far we've noticed that:

Maulgar: Yes, dies to Whirlwind if you dont micro-manage your pet.

Gruul: Died a few times to cave-in since pets take full duration Stoned (30s i think)

Magtheridon: Can die, but if done correctly will live most of the fight without having to micro-manage too much.

Hydross: Easy, havent had him die yet. Just need to call back during transitions.

Lurker: I dont even use my pet since I stay on the small platforms the entire time. This fight is terrible for a BM hunter.

Tidewalker: 2p Riftstalker set bonus helps a lot for this. Also pet taking chain heals will live most of the time until I get watery graved and hit my own pet with tomb.

Karathress: Agreed, priest AoE waterbolt pretty much kills my pet every time if meleeing. I usually dont even use my pet for that one add.

Void Reaver: Terrible now with it taking 6-8k Pound damage every 10 seconds or so.

Solarian: Easy if pets receives chain heals.

Alar: Right now, will die most of the time to the flame buffet if it's 4+ ticks.

As for pet mend on PTR (heals for 425/tick, 2800 total if I remember correctly.). It should be fine, but pets will still need heals.
So even with the new pet mend HOT being chain cast it won't be enough to keep the pet out of harms way. I am hoping that avoidance will seriously make a difference otherwise its going to be ugly for BM even in 2.1. I don't think there is anything healers hate more than to heal or buff hunter pets.
#316SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
So even with the new pet mend HOT being chain cast it won't be enough to keep the pet out of harms way. I am hoping that avoidance will seriously make a difference otherwise its going to be ugly for BM even in 2.1. I don't think there is anything healers hate more than to heal or buff hunter pets.
In that same vein, I recently discovered that the Mend Pet HoT is dispellable. Joy!

But on the up side, the Imp Mend Pet talent now reduces the mana cost by 10% per point in addition to potentially removing debuffs.
#317SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
2.0
Aran: I think it is great to use your pet. He will soak up some damage and intelligent healers will keep him up so Aran has one more thing to shoot at. When I see the warning that flame wreath is being cast I put him on stay (and passive, but he is already on passive.) As soon as flame wreath is over I tell him to attack. The main reason for keeping him around is for one more target not so much for his DPS.

High King Maulgar: Thankfully I don't tank the shammy (go go feral druid) so I use my pet on the priest, lock, shammy without any problems. I never send him to the mage (blast wave) and once we are on Maulgar himself he often dies (from me not paying attention to cool down of whirl-wind) but that is very late in the encounter.

Gruul: Early in the encounter keeping my pet up is easy. Once the cave-ins get really nasty it is almost impossible.

Magtheridon: (I have never killed him.) I can not even come close to keeping my pet up past the first add. Actually, he might have made it to the second once or twice.

2.1
Aran: With some luck I wont have to put my pet on stay and can use snake trap for even more targets (IE it is fixed it again so [pets including snakes from the trap] don't set off the flame wreath.)

High King Maulgar: I don't see much change here, unless the blast wave and whirlwind do a lot less damage to the pet. Either way, my pet is usually alive 90%+ of the encounter in 2.0.

Gruul: Half damage from cave-ins will make this a relatively pet friendly encounter with a little micromanagement. If he has a lot of grows my pet is getting one-shotted now, it will only be half with the talent.

Magtheridon: Again, the -50% from AOE will be great but, the pet will still be taking a ton of damage and I don't see this being pet friendly.



On another note, I will have a hard time doing BM even after 2.1 finally hits because I have found that as a hunter, even one that does well in dps (near any class in damage) I am last to get considered when making groups. My raid leaders seem to think of it as a nuisance when I ask to be with a s-priest (when I was trying BM.)
Do others of you have the same problem? Do you think you could raid well as BM without a s-priest? How? Seems chain potting is not enough.
#318SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Klauso
I petitioned a GM about the pet setting of the flame wreaths and he said it was a known issue that would be fixed in an upcoming patch.... I really miss my pet and the use of the snake trap on Aran because a lot of times my pet or the snakes would take the missiles and save a raid member. Being BM I can res my pet in 4 secs making it reusable to take one for the team and allowing me to use bestial wrath to escape the slowing effect before the arcane explosion and do extra damage. Can't wait for it to be fixed.
#319SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Sapa
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
So even with the new pet mend HOT being chain cast it won't be enough to keep the pet out of harms way. I am hoping that avoidance will seriously make a difference otherwise its going to be ugly for BM even in 2.1. I don't think there is anything healers hate more than to heal or buff hunter pets.
Shadowpriest, hunters here have shadowpriest. Sure it took lots of bitching to get hold of them.

But now if there is SP and Hunter in our raid, they ride together (except in special occasions). SP + NewMend + 50% aoe absorb = Hot stuf Really looking forward to it.

We group all 2-3 hunters (1-2 are BM, 1 is MM) with shadowpriest and demo lock - other mana users if someone is missing.
Anyone found better way to group hunters these days?

As for Ugly for BM. I Raided BWL/Aq40/Naxx with BM and imho TBC is more pet friendly. And looks like its improving.

Edit:
Magtheridon: Again, the -50% from AOE will be great but, the pet will still be taking a ton of damage and I don't see this being pet friendly.
In all my Mag raids, pet died less often than me. In all Mag downs pet was up 100% of time. SR+FR help a ton, and SP makes enough healing.

Last edited by Sapa : 05/10/07 at 1:05 PM. Reason: Same context (hunter+sp)
#320SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
Do others of you have the same problem? Do you think you could raid well as BM without a s-priest? How? Seems chain potting is not enough.
Generally speaking my raid group is understanding and either puts me with a shadowpriest or a shaman (for mana stream) and my paladins will try to keep up JoW (although it will inevitably fall off). When I don't have a shadow priest, I chain pot. Yeah, it's a pain in the butt, but the alternative is having a hunter who's OOM autoshotting (which is worthless). My mana problems are less now as BM than they were as MM, however.

One of my concerns on Magtheridon relates to the shadowbolt volleys: if someone misses an interrupt, my pet takes a big hit. In 2.1, will shadowbolt volley be considered aoe? I mean, each bolt is actually targeted, so I'm unclear how that will work (if someone has tested this on the PTR, it'd be nice to know).
#321SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
My raid leaders seem to think of it as a nuisance when I ask to be with a s-priest (when I was trying BM.)
Do others of you have the same problem? Do you think you could raid well as BM without a s-priest? How? Seems chain potting is not enough.
Amazingly my raid leader is quite accommodating when possible, even insisting my pet get buffs such as might and kings. Sometimes a pally will get sick of buffing it though ;p I want to be with a Shadow priest mainly cause of the healing for my pet and of course the mana is amazing as well.

As 41/20 I don't do any worse then a MM hunter on mana, and actually probably do a lot better due to not needing to use multishot in a regular rotation since I don't have 6 points tied into it.
#322SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12BigBlue
How much do you expect mana usage to go up in 2.1 with kill command not on the GCD? None at all? Just a little? I suppose it is dependent on how you play now but..

Mag: Maybe we just don't have the interruption of the s-bolt volley down good enough, that seems to be what is killing him. Although, I must admit, we have not spent much time on Mag (maybe 3hrs.)
#323SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
How much do you expect mana usage to go up in 2.1 with kill command not on the GCD? None at all? Just a little? I suppose it is dependent on how you play now but..
Looking at the typical shot rotation for a MM Hunter (~0.87 shots per second) and a crit rate of ~20% I would expect to be able to use KC every 7.2 seconds (math for this can be found in my spreadsheet under Pet Calculations). This works out to 10.4 MPS. You can punch in your specific set up to get more accurate numbers for yourself.

But that is if you have the opportunity to spam it as soon as you are able to. I've heard that KC has a cast time to it in 2.1, which means you'll have to find time in your rotation to cast it without clipping auto shots.
#324SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I've heard that KC has a cast time to it in 2.1, which means you'll have to find time in your rotation to cast it without clipping auto shots.
It does? I thought it was instant. They even removed the animation to make that point clearer.
#325SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Optimized
People have provided a lot of information on pet survivability on Maulgar, Gruul, and Magtheridon, but I would like to see people's experiences on other encounters. What I'm reading is that with a shadowpriest/ 2 piece tier 5, new HOT, and avoidance it's not really that bad to keep the pet up. What is the range of the HOT? Can I apply it when I am at max range to the pet in melee range?
#326SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12sasukekun
Originally Posted by Optimized View Post
People have provided a lot of information on pet survivability on Maulgar, Gruul, and Magtheridon, but I would like to see people's experiences on other encounters. What I'm reading is that with a shadowpriest/ 2 piece tier 5, new HOT, and avoidance it's not really that bad to keep the pet up. What is the range of the HOT? Can I apply it when I am at max range to the pet in melee range?
45 yards on Mend Pet.

I forgot to add that on Leotheras, it isnt a problem unless your pet gets hit by Whirlwind (dot kills it). I was watching BigWigs and calling Sean (my pet) back at 3s to Whirlwind in Hunter mode and used BW when he's in Demon mode. Very easy to micro-manage your pet on that fight if you watch BigWigs or any other boss timer mod.
#327SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Looking at the typical shot rotation for a MM Hunter (~0.87 shots per second) and a crit rate of ~20% I would expect to be able to use KC every 7.2 seconds (math for this can be found in my spreadsheet under Pet Calculations). This works out to 10.4 MPS. You can punch in your specific set up to get more accurate numbers for yourself.

But that is if you have the opportunity to spam it as soon as you are able to. I've heard that KC has a cast time to it in 2.1, which means you'll have to find time in your rotation to cast it without clipping auto shots.
I'd approach it like this: You can't cast Kill Command faster than every 5 seconds, and it's 75 mana per cast. Therefore the ceiling on KC mana usage is 75MP5 (or 15MPS, depending on which metric is more useful to you). Since you can't possibly use more than 75MP5 on KC, I'd say assume you'll have to accommodate that level of usage and if you don't, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Then again, I'm somewhat of a pessimist by nature, I suppose.

I'll test KC on the PTR this afternoon to check for cast time and update this post, but as far as I know there's no cast time (perhaps a hidden cast time? I'll stack haste and see if it forces me to clip my rotation).
#328SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I'll test KC on the PTR this afternoon to check for cast time and update this post, but as far as I know there's no cast time (perhaps a hidden cast time? I'll stack haste and see if it forces me to clip my rotation).
See if you can get a combat log of a macro that casts KC and arcane shot in rapid succession. That should be a pretty good indication of cast time. I'm currently modeling it based on a 0 cast time, since that is much easier to do and I'm optimistic that Blizzard is truely giving us another way to turn mana into damage without crippling our already poor timing mechanics.
#329SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
They specifically stated they removed the shout animation from KC so it operated as a true instant. Last I checked on the PTR it didn't delay anything.
#330SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
The Iron Colonel
Glau is perfectly correct. I spent about 20 minutes on a Servant of Allistarj with kill command / arcane shot macro'd. I stood at min range to minimize flight time on arcane shot; I saw essentially no delay whatsoever (when I account for ping, kill command and arcane shot were essentially simultaneous). So I think I can safely saw Kill Command doesn't have a cast time. I didn't test to see if it delays auto shot, I'll try and do that in a bit.

One thing to note is that it is still a player ability, so you can't cast both kill command and arcane shot at the same time (it'll say "You fail to cast XXX: Not yet recovered.") So for all intents and purposes it is a truly instant cast spell now.

[EDIT]
Tried to deliberately delay autoshot with Kill Command (used Littetrouble to time Kill Command, not sure if LT is working on PTR correctly, so bear that in mind).

I can't conclude anything, because I feel like my test methodology was flawed (timing it by hand means I either get KC immediately after Auto Shot or right on top of it). Judging by little trouble, if I cast Kill Command 1 second before my autoshot should go off, autoshot was getting delayed (the bar would linger at the end, as though the shot were clipped). However, when I look at the log it appears my shots weren't delayed by kill command. So the only thing I can say is that I'm not sure if KC delays auto. I have one instance where the time stamp is identical:

5/10 16:17:10.619  Cat's Kill Command hits Servant of Allistarj for 143.
5/10 16:17:10.619  Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Allistarj for 1384.
Which provides anecdotal support as to kill command not delaying auto shot, but as I said - this was 1 instance among many. Does anyone have any consistent test data? I just don't trust my results for this.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 05/11/07 at 10:24 AM.
#331SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Lozzleskotch
Does Kill Command interrupt the hidden .5 second cast time of autoshot?
#332SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12NaPoLeoN II
Guess that means you can just put a /cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command infront of every steady shot macro and/or other specials, without having to worry about your shot rotation.
#333SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by NaPoLeoN II View Post
Guess that means you can just put a /cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command infront of every steady shot macro and/or other specials, without having to worry about your shot rotation.
Actually, when I did that with arcane shot it would stop me from casting arcane shot. /stopcasting turned off my autoshot. Anyway, I haven't invested too much time into macroing it appropriately, but something to keep in mind.
#334SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Krypt
I think having it placed infront of every steady would be enough. Since it both interfers with arcane and auto. I would try and research this "hidden" delay; I would also like to know how this also ties in with the 0.5 cast of multi also, It could possible knock that back too.

I would love to test this however i dont have access to the PTR's.

5/10 16:17:10.619 Cat's Kill Command hits Servant of Allistarj for 143.
5/10 16:17:10.619 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Allistarj for 1384.

Correct me if im wrong, but could this mean that the auto only fired after its hidden delay, Hence the matching time stamps; or would the hidden delay come pre auto shot?

Last edited by Krypt : 05/10/07 at 6:41 PM.
#335SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
That's possible. That's why I wasn't confident in my results; I think there's a better way to test this, but I'm not sure how to do it.
#336SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Krypt
Changing the flow of conversation here a little. With pretty impressive demonstrations of BM's new found power ( well done Osse, 1170 DPS is impressive ) would anyone consider this the new raiding build?

For me personally, I was intending on possibly trying this but work on some AGI gear and go for a 7/20/34 build to increase my synergy within a melee group.
#337SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Grogzor
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
Changing the flow of conversation here a little. With pretty impressive demonstrations of BM's new found power ( well done Osse, 1170 DPS is impressive ) would anyone consider this the new raiding build?

For me personally, I was intending on possibly trying this but work on some AGI gear and go for a 7/20/34 build to increase my synergy within a melee group.
The only two things that are holding BM back right now are fights where pets are useless and peoples misconception of "BM HUNTARD LOL"
#338SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Krypt
Misconceptions will soon change if we crack the 1k DPS mark, or higher. With the arrival of 2.1 and the Mend Pet change plus 50% avoidance, i can see our pets lasting vastly longer - especially in the capable hands of a SPriest.
#339SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Grogzor
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
Misconceptions will soon change if we crack the 1k DPS mark, or higher. With the arrival of 2.1 and the Mend Pet change plus 50% avoidance, i can see our pets lasting vastly longer - especially in the capable hands of a SPriest.
Just wanted to put this out there, never doubt the ability of the human race to hold onto misconceptions long after they have been disproved and ground into the dirt.
#340SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
Misconceptions will soon change if we crack the 1k DPS mark, or higher. With the arrival of 2.1 and the Mend Pet change plus 50% avoidance, i can see our pets lasting vastly longer - especially in the capable hands of a SPriest.
I'm not sure how much the 50% evasion is going to help. Many fights aren't borderline in terms of pet surivability; either the pet gets slaughtered, or it's ok. I dunno, do others feel differently? I have no experience in SSC or TK, but from what I'm hearing it's not a matter of healing the pet but rather a matter of "my pet gets 1 shot" or "my pet can't physically reach the boss". Am I wrong?
#341SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Lumi
Only Void Reaver rapes my pet that badly. Every other time he dies a slow death to a Hydross dot, an earthquake on Tidewalker or to random aoes on Fathom Lord. From what I understand though, Lurker is particularly painful for pets.
#342SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Lactose
Originally Posted by Grogzor View Post
Just wanted to put this out there, never doubt the ability of the human race to hold onto misconceptions long after they have been disproved and ground into the dirt.
"There is always a 1% chance to miss!"

My biggest gripe with BM Hunters in 2.1.0, without having tested it, is again the 'gief Shadow Priest' mentality.
Especially when thinking of how much better a BM Hunter's pet would be in a physical DPS group, Battleshout, Strength of Earth...

Edit: As for the matching combat log stamps... mind posting the timestamp for the previous Auto Shot?
That should at least be able to tell if the Auto Shot was delayed ~0.5 seconds or not.
#343SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12AndrewCarr
Wait, so there's not a limit to the amount you can minimize your miss %? I thought that there was always a chance to miss even after 8.6%. Not necessarily 1%, but something.
#344SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Lumi
You can reduce miss to 0%.
#345SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
"There is always a 1% chance to miss!"

My biggest gripe with BM Hunters in 2.1.0, without having tested it, is again the 'gief Shadow Priest' mentality.
Especially when thinking of how much better a BM Hunter's pet would be in a physical DPS group, Battleshout, Strength of Earth...

Edit: As for the matching combat log stamps... mind posting the timestamp for the previous Auto Shot?
That should at least be able to tell if the Auto Shot was delayed ~0.5 seconds or not.
Alas, I deleted the log without thinking about that, sorry. I'll try to replicate the result some time this weekend, if I can (Fridays + weekends are girlfriend time, so I don't get to the computer much - but I'll try to do so).
#346SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
It is a bit annoying when your pet gets vile sludge twice in a row and stuff but I suppose we just have to live with that. :>

When everything goes like planned though.... thats some sick dps. :p

Last nights ~15% Hydross wipe (Shammy didnt use heroism) http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=fq4uyvvfiebju

-No fel str, just onslaugh
-No food buff
-No flask
-No warrior in group

Shame he's immune to FF.

Live servers btw.
#347SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Goreshot
Copied and Pasted from the old Hunter Mechanics thread (that has since dropped to Page 3):

4/27 01:44:22.234 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1149.
4/27 01:44:24.750 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 303.
4/27 01:44:25.343 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1213.

4/27 01:44:27.890 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 507.
4/27 01:44:30.406 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 582.
4/27 01:44:32.890 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 589.
4/27 01:44:35.421 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 493.
4/27 01:44:37.859 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 498.
4/27 01:44:40.484 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 548.
4/27 01:44:43.046 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 546.
4/27 01:44:45.593 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 558.
4/27 01:44:47.984 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 480.

4/27 01:44:50.718 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1295.
4/27 01:44:53.453 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 298.
4/27 01:44:54.031 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 561.

4/27 01:44:56.562 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 525.
4/27 01:44:59.109 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 489.

4/27 01:45:01.609 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1137.
4/27 01:45:03.921 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 304.
4/27 01:45:04.046 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 582.

4/27 01:45:06.578 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1526.

...

4/27 01:45:15.500 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1372.
4/27 01:45:17.703 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 301.
4/27 01:45:18.125 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1338.

...

4/27 01:45:38.343 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1221.
4/27 01:45:39.500 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 234.
4/27 01:45:40.875 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 585.

4/27 01:45:43.281 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1289.
4/27 01:45:45.812 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 249.
4/27 01:45:46.515 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 564.

...

4/27 01:46:04.250 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1211.
4/27 01:46:06.859 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 251.
4/27 01:46:07.468 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1546.

4/27 01:46:09.968 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1554.
4/27 01:46:12.609 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 254.
4/27 01:46:13.203 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 651.

4/27 01:46:15.843 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 518.

4/27 01:46:18.343 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1300.
4/27 01:46:20.578 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 235.
4/27 01:46:21.671 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1439.

...

4/27 01:46:31.750 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1369.
4/27 01:46:34.390 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 246.
4/27 01:46:35.187 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1212.

...

4/27 01:46:55.437 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1244.
4/27 01:46:58.250 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 237.
4/27 01:46:58.843 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 538.

4/27 01:47:01.250 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 599.
#348SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
It is a bit annoying when your pet gets vile sludge twice in a row and stuff but I suppose we just have to live with that. :>

When everything goes like planned though.... thats some sick dps. :p

Last nights ~15% Hydross wipe (Shammy didnt use heroism) http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=fq4uyvvfiebju

-No fel str, just onslaugh
-No food buff
-No flask
-No warrior in group

Shame he's immune to FF.

Live servers btw.
Can I ask for the details on your run? From the looks of things you're using almost pure auto/steady (almost 0 multishots and arcane shots) but your crit rate was through the roof. What gives? 37% crit rate on your steady shots is incredible (29% on auto shots isn't too shabby either). I see IMP LotP in the healing, so it's clear you had LotP. Your base crit is 25%, so the auto shot crit rate is approximately correct, but the steady crit rate seems extraordinarily high. So seriously, what gives?

Also, somewhat off topic, but you appear to have a quite small mana pool; do you have to pot frequently, given your lack of 5/5 efficiency, or does the steady/auto rotation minimize the mana needs? If I can get 1100 dps with just auto/steady, I'd definitely consider dropping efficiency.

[EDIT]
Just looked at the mana figures - Fel Mana Pot + JoW + BoW + Mana Stream. That would explain how you're able to keep up the rotation with such a (relatively) small mana pool.
#349SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Krypt
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Can I ask for the details on your run? From the looks of things you're using almost pure auto/steady (almost 0 multishots and arcane shots) but your crit rate was through the roof. What gives? 37% crit rate on your steady shots is incredible (29% on auto shots isn't too shabby either). I see IMP LotP in the healing, so it's clear you had LotP. Your base crit is 25%, so the auto shot crit rate is approximately correct, but the steady crit rate seems extraordinarily high. So seriously, what gives?
I'm quite impressed to since there is no arcane and multi in your rotation as well. Yet amazed that your pet alone with all of his attacks does roughly the same amount of damage as your auto shot alone. Your crit rate is also incredable, for BM, even with LotP!
#350SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
I can't tell you guys how excited I am to go full BM when 2.1 hits for raiding. My personal results wayyyy earlier in this thread in raiding on Live have been excellent and the only thing holding me back is pet survivability. I'd also highly recommend investing 2 points in improved pet mend come 2.1. If you get GFTT I'd only put 1 or no points into passive regeneration in the BM tree especially if your crit rate is high. It seems my pet cat cannot dump focus as fast as I can provide it back.
#351SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
The Iron Colonel
Well, according to WoWWiki pets will tick for 25 focus every 4 seconds. [EDIT]Glau has corrected this, it's actually 24.5 focus per 4. The remainder of this post will be updated to reflect that. So that's 6.125 focus per second and each point in Bestial Discipline adds 3.0625 focus per second. GftT adds
Focus from GftT / second = shots / second * crits / shot * 25 * talent points in GftT
Note that crits / shot is the same as the crit rate. Using my Sunfury bow, I'm at 2.10 attack speed, so with steady shot I'm doing shots every 2.1/2 = 1.05 seconds (note that I'm ignoring iAotH), so I'm doing 0.95 shots / second. Assuming the Sunfury is 'the' bow to use currently (or rather, the bow that the majority of raiders are using) for the purposes of speed, we can optimize the talent distribution between the two talents based on crit rate. Rather than looking at it as "talents in one versus talents in the other" I'm going to assume that we have a pool of 2 talent points (the other two being moved to imp mend pet) and any points NOT in GftT would be in Bestial Discipline. It's a simple optimization problem now.
let
x = talent points in Bestial Discipline
y = talent points in Go for the Throat
x + y = 2
F = focus
dF/dt = 6.125 + 3.0625 * (x) + 0.95 * Crit Rate * y * 25
Set dF/dt = 0 and solve for x
0 = 6.125 + 3.0625 * (x) + 0.95 * Crit Rate * (2 - x) * 25
-6.125 - 2 * 23.8 * Crit Rate = (3.0625 - 23.8 * Crit Rate) * x
x = (-6.125 - 2 * 23.8 * Crit Rate) / (3.0625 - 23.8 * Crit Rate)
So for a 20% crit rate the maxima for focus regeneration occurs when you have 6.8 points in BD. Clearly this isn't realistic as it's outside the boundaries (that is, x + y = 2 and 0<= 2 - x <=2 and 0<= 2 - y <=2). Lets just plug in integer values for x and y and see what the focus regen looks like.
BD     GftT     Crit     dF/dT
0	2	0.15	13.25
1	1	0.15	12.75
2	0	0.15	12.25
0	2	0.2	15.625
1	1	0.2	13.9375
2	0	0.2	12.25
0	2	0.25	18
1	1	0.25	15.125
2	0	0.25	12.25
Perhaps the result was immediately apparent to everyone else, but I'm a little surprised that GftT is superior by such a wide margin on a point for point basis relative to Bestial Discipline for any reasonable amount of crit that a raiding hunter would have.

As for pet focus usage and how to spec for it, if you're using a ravager or cat autocasting gore/claw and bite then you'll be using 16.67 fps for gore/claw and 3.50 fps for bite, for a total of 20.17 fps. Even with a 25% crit rate, you can't keep up with the focus usage of your pet. If you're at 25% to crit, 1 point in BD will keep your pet fat and happy, in terms of focus. If you're at 20% to crit, 2 points are required to keep your pet contstantly autocasting.

Lets find the equivalence points for needing points in BD. If you have 2 points in GftT and 1 point in BD then you'll just be keeping up with your pet's focus usage (again, assuming ravager/cat) at 23.1% to crit. If you have 23.1% to crit or more, 1 point in BD keeps up with your pets focus usage; less than 23.1% to crit and you need a second point in BD to keep up with the focus usage. Likewise, if you have 29.5% or more to crit, you don't need any points in BD to keep up with a ravager's/cat's focus usage.

If you're using a windserpent spamming LB (no bite) you're using 33.3 fps (50/1.5 GCD). To keep it up with a constant spam, you'd need a 57.3% crit rate with no points in BD. With 1 point in BD you'd need a 50.8% crit rate and with 2 points in BD you'd need a 44.3% crit rate. It's very difficult to keep up with a wind serpent casting LB every time the CD is up, clearly.
Just some food for thought regarding pet focus usage.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 05/11/07 at 4:10 PM.
#352SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
 Glaurong
Pet focus regen is actually about 24.5 per 5 (or there is a small amount of focus decay). It is very easy to tell if you use a wind serpent. After the first two LBs your pet will have 48-49 focus after the first regen tic and can't cast another LB till the next tic takes it up to 96-99.

Edit regarding GftT:

It has always been a very powerful talent and is the sole reason LB got nerfed. Without GftT the scaling LB wasn't that powerful.

Edit 2:

Modeling GftT as a per tic amount of focus regen really overvalues it. You lose a fair amount to back-to-back crits, crits happening during regen tics, etc.

Last edited by Glaurong : 05/11/07 at 2:15 PM.
#353SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Pet focus regen is actually about 24.5 per 5 (or there is a small amount of focus decay). It is very easy to tell if you use a wind serpent. After the first two LBs your pet will have 48-49 focus after the first regen tic and can't cast another LB till the next tic takes it up to 96-99.
If that's the case, it just pushes the balance more in favor of GftT over BD, and I'll correct my post to reflect a 24.5 focus / 5 innate regen rate. I was mostly engaging in a little math to figure out which configuration of BD/GftT would keep a BM pet stocked on focus if you didn't have both maxed (as in the case of Howitzer's last post, where he posits removing two points from BD and placing them in Imp Mend Pet).

[EDIT]
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Edit regarding GftT:

It has always been a very powerful talent and is the sole reason LB got nerfed. Without GftT the scaling LB wasn't that powerful.
You're probably correct there - I recall seeing theoretical numbers putting LB spam over 100 dps as it previously scaled.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 05/11/07 at 2:13 PM.
#354SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
It is a bit annoying when your pet gets vile sludge twice in a row and stuff but I suppose we just have to live with that. :>

When everything goes like planned though.... thats some sick dps. :p

Last nights ~15% Hydross wipe (Shammy didnt use heroism) http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=fq4uyvvfiebju

-No fel str, just onslaugh
-No food buff
-No flask
-No warrior in group

Shame he's immune to FF.

Live servers btw.
What I would like to know, how much is the armor reduction on Hydross? Based on your gear, your rotation, group set up and pot usage I'd say he cant have more then 15%. Is that about correct?

Edit: btw, whats also sick, is the dps of your shammy...
#355SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
Welshy, you may have been correct about pet regen ticking every 4, rather than 5. I'm not positive on that part. The main thing I was addressing is that it wasn't 25 per tic.

Whether the tics happen every 4 or 5 I'm really not sure.
#356SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Tazrach
Nice going Osse. I must say BM is looking hard to pass up. As a hunter class lead and guild officer I dont think I am going to be able to however since I want at least one EW hunter since our raid makeups tend to be phys dps heavy (cant seem to recruit reliable mages that pump the dps) and i don't see that being anyone else but me.

I am hoping at least one of our hunters does try it and will enjoy seeing him top the charts and live vicariously through him

Taz
#357SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Goreshot
INCOMING WALL OF TEXT:

------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite sure where to put this, since the old thread is 90 pages long and not quite pertinent for 2.1 anymore. I did some messing around on the live server in Blasted Lands with my new pet Scorpid. I found some pretty intriguing stuff. From my testing, here is what I think the formula is for Scorpid Poison (all testing based off of Rank 5, which is different in duration from all other ranks of the spell):

Initial Stack Damage Per Tick= ( ( (0.125*rAP) + 44)/ 4) * % Damage Modifiers
Damage Per Additional Stack = 11 x % Damage Modifiers
Damage Per Tick = ISD + ((# of Stacks-1) * DPAS)

TOTAL Damage of Scorpid Poison (Rank 5) = (ISD + DPT) * 4



Notes:

-If this seems confusing, just think about it this way: The first time your pet casts Scorpid Poison, every tick of the poison will do Initial Stack Damage Per Tick. Each additional application of Scorpid Poison (it stacks 5 times) will increase the amount of damage done by the Damage Per Additional Stack. So if your ISD is 50, and your DPAS is 10, then at the third stack each tick will be doing 70 damage (50 + 10 + 10).

- Every successful application of Scorpid Poison will maintain the same debuff the entire time, stacking up to 5 times. Essentially, if your pet fails to apply Scorpid Poison twice in a row, that debuff will disappear and you will have to start all over again from scratch with the ISD. As I will explain later, this isn't always a bad thing.

- "% Damage Modifiers" are the additive total of any buffs you might receive that increase your pet's damage. This includes the BM talents Unleashed Fury, Ferocious Inspiration, and Bestial Wrath; I would assume this also includes non-self buffs as well. So for example, if you were being buffed by all three aforementioned BM talents, your multiplier would be 1.48 (3% FI + 25% Bestial Wrath + 20% Unleashed Fury). However, it appears that ISDPT gets no benefit from the passive 20% modifier you receive from Unleashed Fury. I'm not quite sure why this is the case. Either it isn't receiving a buff it should, or there is something off with my math (rAP->spelldamage conversion, % of spelldamage translated into DoTs, what have you).

- Damage Per Additional Stack is only modified by % Damage Modifiers. This is important; if you only have AP buffs at the time, the only increase to Scorpid Poison damage you will see is in the ISD. You are potentially missing out on what can be as much as 30 DPS if your pet is able to maintain the same stack of Scorpid Poison throughout.

- ***EVERYTHING IS ONLY CALCULATED ONCE, UPON THE FIRST APPLICATION OF SCORPID POISON.***

This is very, very important. If you hit Bestial Wrath when your pet has a full 5-stack of Scorpid Poison already up and running, it will not gain any benefit from the talent. Hell, even if it only had 1 stack before you hit the button, it will not gain any benefit from your new buff. As long as that same stack is being kept up by your pet, every tick will do the same damage it did before. Conversely, if you hit all your cooldowns BEFORE any Scorpid Poison has been applied, then your pet casts the spell, as long as that debuff is kept up your pet will get it to the maximum damage that was calculated in the beginning, even if all those buffs you had drop the second after the first debuff was applied.


Conclusions:

Based on the above, what you want to do is get every single AP buff and Damage Modifier buff you can get all at once, wait a few seconds for the rAP to get translated into your pet's spelldamage, THEN send your pet in (or turn on Scorpid Poison). I managed to buff my pet's DPT from 132 to 230 just by doing the above with my own self-buffs and cooldowns. I'd imagine under a raid setting this number can jump even higher.

Scorpid Poison's initial cost is actually relatively cheap compared to other pet skills. If all you did was get one stack of Scorpid Poison throughout, you would get at least 8 Damage Per Focus, which is a huge increase over the other talents. More specifically: if all it did was tick once a la a "direct damage" ability, you would get 2 DPF, which is on par with Gore and Claw as a pure Focus dump (the only thing stopping it would be the 4 second cooldown). If you looked at Scorpid Poison on a per-tick basis, this number jumps up astronomically when you include a full 5-stack debuff that is being maintained. Consider a Scorpid Poison debuff that is ticking for 250 damage every two seconds - this translates into 125 DPS (to compare, full-bore LB spam that hits for 200 a pop is 133 DPS). On a good day, Gore will give you an extra 30 DPS, assuming no misses/glances/blocks/parries/dodges/armor mitigation. This is damage that can only be matched by Lightning Breath when it has no Focus concerns (i.e. spamming LB every cooldown), and comes at a Focus cost that is more than 4.4 times cheaper per single tick, and almost 18 times cheaper when allowed to run its full course and never reapplied. If your pet is able to maintain a full stack debuff for any length of time, the cost of this ability scales geometrically low in terms of FPD (15 + 7.5 * (# of Stacks - 1)).

Of course, these are all theoretical maximums. What will probably end up happening, even with the changes to melee combat mechanics, is that your pet will miss some applications, and will allow the fully stacked debuff to drop a handful of times in any raid boss fight. However, when you consider that there will be times where a fully buffed, fully stacked debuff can be maintained for a reasonable period of time (or even just a regular old self-buffed fullstack), I'd bet good money that Scorpid Poison would handily beat any Gore or pure-Claw pet, and could probably match or even beat Lightning Breath on a good day. Yes, even with the 4-second cooldown.

The thing I'm not mentioning here is that unlike all the other spelldamage-based pet abilities (all of which except LB are "awesome" when you look at them in pure math terms), SCORPIDS GET CLAW TOO. No other pet has a combination of Focus Dump + Scaling Ability. Some pets get Claw/Bite or Gore/Bite or even Gore/Charge, none of which scale. Or Bite and Poison Spit/Fire Breath, both of which are on long cooldown timers. So while your scorpid pet is applying Scorpid Poison every 4 seconds at a measly 30 Focus cost, it's using all that excess Focus on Claw, which is still a pretty nice Focus Dump (Gore is only slightly better - what makes Ravagers so good is their innate DPS bonus combined with Gore, not just the ability itself). The two skills combined use a little over 24 FPS, which as previously shown in this thread is an easily sustainable number.

------------------------------------------------------------------

END WALL OF TEXT


Long story short - I think Scorpids rule, and if I were still raiding I'd try mine out on some raid bosses. The innate DPS hit you take from using a Scorpid would be easily countered by the fact that you can sustain a >100 DPS ability on a consistent basis (consider if your pet does 300 DPS total, a 10% modifier is only 30 DPS, and a 20% modifier difference - the difference between a Ravager and a Scorpid - is 60 DPS). The reason I'm sharing this with you guys so "soon" is because I really don't have the opportunity to do real-world raid-testing anymore, so I'm hoping someone will take the initiative and tell me if the theorycrafting holds up.


*It appears that the increased rAP from Aspect of the Hawk is not translating into spelldamage for the pet. If someone can confirm this with a Windserpent or another pet that would be awesome. It took me about 15 minutes to figure this out, because it was skewing some of my numbers. Once I took out the Aspect of the Hawk buff, everything fell into place.

Last edited by Goreshot : 05/11/07 at 5:47 PM.
#358SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
 Glaurong
If the 17% resist rate for a boss mob applies to your pet the same way it applies to you then I would imagine that throws a major kink in this. What do the numbers come out like if you assume a 17% resist rate for each poison application?

Edit: I also believe you are calculating the added spell damage incorrectly.

Unless they apply your RAP to spell damage differently for different classes of pets a scorpid would only get 3% of your AP as spell damage (this is what testing of LB shows).

Since scorpid poison is a dot, each tic gets 1/5th of your overall spell damage (might be different here because it is ticking every 2 seconds instead of 3 like most dots). Which means 0.6% (0.006) of your total AP gets directly added per tic, per stack. So a full 5/5 stack will get 3% of your AP applied directly as damage a tic.

If the above is right then with 2000 RAP, a 5/5 stack should tick for 115 every 2 seconds before modifiers. With pet family and happy modifiers 115 * 0.93 * 1.25 = 134 every 2 seconds

If somehow the scorpid is still getting 12.5% of your AP as spell damage then 12.5% of your AP would apply directly as damage a tic.

So in this case with 2000 RAP a 5/5 stack will tick for 305 every 2 seconds before modifiers. With pet family and happy modifiers 355 every 2 seconds.

Edit 2: Never mind, I see you based your formula off tests. I guess I didn't read close enough.

Last edited by Glaurong : 05/11/07 at 4:43 PM.
#359SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
The Iron Colonel
Wow, that's some good news. Most bosses are not immune to poisons (notable exceptions like Hydross not withstanding), so that's cool to hear. Likewise, if you're raiding with mutilate rogues they'll never have to worry about shiving to put up poisons, enabling them to spend their energy on other abilities.

Couple questions: do you have any information on the miss rate / resist rate of poison? If you do, it would be fairly trivial to determine the average up-time on poisons, which would be a nice data point to have. Also, are you seeing any partial resists on poison ticks right now? Again, useful information against which to compare other pets.

One of my primary concerns (albeit totally unsubstantiated and speculative right now) would be prioritizing claw versus poison. Currently I'm using a cat with claw/bite; obviously I see many more claws than bites, but what would happen if you hit a drought of crits and your pet doesn't get a poison stack renewed? Seems like you might lose all the bonuses from cooldowns/trinkets that you've spent on the stack.

I'll pick up a scorpid and try to level it a little bit over the next few days; I don't have any raids scheduled until Tuesday, and we're still farming Karazhan/Gruul for gear, so my data my not be representative of leading edge raid encounters.

@ Glaurong:
You're right, I mistyped the 5 in the beginning. All of the math was done for regen ticks every 4 seconds, but I had 5 listed in the documentation; I corrected it. Thanks for the heads up!

[EDIT] Glau beat me to it with the resist figure. If you assume that you'll get 2 chances to renew the stack (8 second duration, 4 second CD on poison) you're looking at 1-0.17^2=0.9711 chance to renew the stack; if you assume 1 chance to renew, it's a 1-0.17=0.83 chance to renew. Can you have a poison miss/dodge/parry result? If so, that will also reduce the uptime on poison. Is the poison stack shared by more than 1 scorpid? That would increase uptime substantially, but return less overall damage as the stack is limited to 5 applications. I'll check to see if more than 1 scorpid can share a stack this afternoon.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 05/11/07 at 4:35 PM.
#360SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Goreshot
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
If the 17% resist rate for a boss mob applies to your pet the same way it applies to you then I would imagine that throws a major kink in this. What do the numbers come out like if you assume a 17% resist rate for each poison application?
They won't look as good on a pure DPS standpoint, but no one ever looks at the miss rates for Gore/Claw and the resist rate for Lightning Breath, either. I agree though, it is something that needs to be considered. But like I said, even in a worst-case scenario and your pet only hit every third application and was only able to sustain a single-stack debuff of Scorpid Poison, the damage would be pretty close to current focus dumps because you're getting a DoT with base damage that almost singlehandedly matches other focus dumps on a pure DPS basis anyway (yes, even with just one stack). The fact that it would be spending the rest of its time spamming Claw pretty much guarantees that the end result is better than a pet spamming just Claw or Gore. You're not missing out on much in terms of opportunity cost when you're replacing Claw with Scorpid Poison 37.5% of the time, especially when one of them is a DoT (meaning the damage from one doesn't completely replace the damage from the other). Most of the time you are hitting Claw at no loss in opportunity cost whatsoever because SP is on cooldown and/or already applied, and you are still getting the full damage from that ability while hitting Claw.

Unfortunately, with stacking debuffs like this, it is impossible to properly model the amount of damage done because the accurate model is a series of curves rather than just one straight number or series of numbers.

[Edit Add]

I based my formulae on my own personal testing in Blasted Lands. I'm 99% certain my numbers are right. With ~1600 rAP my pet was seeing initial applications of 62 damage per tick. This translates into 248 damage over the life of one stack, for a 204 damage increase over the initial 44 damage listed on the tooltip. With another 270 rAP from Bloodlust Brooch, my initial stack was hitting for 69-70. The real-world math adds up. Are you sure you're reading my formula properly? It's damage per tick, not overall damage. The number eventually gets divided by 4 at the end. 1600 * .125 = 200. 200 + 44 = 244. 244/4 = 61. Or am I missing something?

Keep in mind they only nerfed Lightning Breath's spelldamage modifier. They probably ignored the other spells beacuse they're all on relatively long cooldowns, so your pet can't spam them anyway.

*Actually, you may be partially right. I'll have to do some double-checking, but either pets don't get a benefit from Unleashed Fury to their initial stack or I'm missing something in the conversions. Either way, LB is a bad spell to base rAP->spelldamage conversion off of, because Blizzard treated it as a special case and nerfed it to hell.



TIC:

There is a level 69 Scorpid in Shadowmoon Valley that has Scorpid Poison (Rank 5). It took me a few hours to tame him, and get him to 70 with full Loyalty (the former will happen before the latter).

Last edited by Goreshot : 05/11/07 at 5:48 PM.
#361SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Goreshot View Post

[Edit Add]

I based my formulae on my own personal testing in Blasted Lands. I'm 99% certain my numbers are right. With ~1600 rAP my pet was seeing initial applications of 62 damage per tick. This translates into 248 damage over the life of one stack, for a 204 damage increase over the initial 44 damage listed on the tooltip. With another 270 rAP from Bloodlust Brooch, my initial stack was hitting for 69-70. The real-world math adds up. Are you sure you're reading my formula properly? It's damage per tick, not overall damage. The number eventually gets divided by 4 at the end. 1600 * .125 = 200. 200 + 44 = 244. 244/4 = 61. Or am I missing something?

Keep in mind they only nerfed Lightning Breath's spelldamage modifier. They probably ignored the other spells beacuse they're all on relatively long cooldowns, so your pet can't spam them anyway.
Yeah I misread you the first time through, didn't pick up that it was based on testing. Scorpid maintaining the 12.5% makes my testing with LB make a lot more sense, they just gave LB a 0.1 coefficient.

Just tested

Max 196 LB - 1563 AP
Max 182 LB - 433 AP

14 dmg gain - 1130 AP difference

1.24% AP -> LB damage
#362SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Goreshot
Yeah, I'm doing some testing with Pet Happiness (GG completely forgetting about that one), and I'm not quite sure how it fits in. At this point, I'm not quite sure if the formula is correct overall. But assuming your pet is Happy and you are BM-specced, I'm comfortable saying that the formula will be accurate for you. There's something weird going on with the scaling damage modifiers, but other than that everything seems ok. If I try to adjust the rAP->spelldamage or the spelldamage->IDPT numbers, they get very skewed off when compared to the real-world numbers I have from my own testing. However, when Happiness is adjusted, the numbers change ~25% from what they were, so it seems that there is some strange math going on in the middle that isn't being calculated in any way that I can figure out. I'm guessing there is a combination of damage multipliers that are being added together, with some like Happiness being left out until the very end of the calculation.
#363SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Update: Scorpid poison can be dodged/parried/miss, which will have a large effect on it's uptime. I've been testing it on boss mobs in AV (which should be level ~73).
#364SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Sorry for the delay on this reply. Thanks for the feeback, I'll keep improving the dps when I get back to Finland. Currently typing this from Budapest and will be here for a few days.

About my mana pool and mana use, yeah it's expensive. :>

Very doable to keep up the rotation for a long period of time with fel mana pots and a few judgements.

About the rotation, I've tested many bow speeds and 3.0 turned out to work pretty nicely, although on this Karazhan clear Phoenix bow finally dropped and got 15 dps increase when I tested dps for 15 mins in Blasted Lands.

I'm not sure why almost pure auto/steady rotation works for me, I always have close to 50 ms during boss fights and 60fps. the gear I'm using right now is the gear I built for survival testing which also turned out to work well with Wolfslayer but dps just was higher with BM so decided to stay as BM for a while.

I had a scorpion for a while when I was MM and could keep it stacked 5 times on most boss fights but if there's dps breaks etc it just doesnt work that well in my opinion. And what bothers me as well is that it doesnt trigger feral inspiration. I like this ravager (which I leveled in two days) :p, although one problem is that it cant burn focus with 37% crit sometimes but there's not really any other options to fill those two points in BM tree and you'll always get unlucky rows where you just dont crit, hence why I havent dropped the talent yet.

Little edit:

Bring on 2.1!
#365SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
What I would like to know, how much is the armor reduction on Hydross? Based on your gear, your rotation, group set up and pot usage I'd say he cant have more then 15%. Is that about correct?

Edit: btw, whats also sick, is the dps of your shammy...
Not sure about his armor but I've reached 1250 on Mag when clicking cubes. :p
#366SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Goreshot
Mag DPS can be a bit misleading because of the cube clicking. When you have to do it, you aren't DPSing. When you don't, your DPS is dependent upon how long the other people are willing to channel for the extra damage debuff.
#367SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
 Grogzor
Hey Howitzer...was the Fundamentals thread on the PTR forum deleted? It seems I cannot find it anymore.

Last edited by Grogzor : 05/12/07 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Nevermind, their search function is crap.
#368SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Howitzer
Originally Posted by Grogzor View Post
Hey Howitzer...was the Fundamentals thread on the PTR forum deleted? It seems I cannot find it anymore.
Nope, still there: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...01280450&sid=1

20 pages now. Of course, no reply. -=)
#369SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Hullahop
While Osse's dps is certainly impressive, what is up with that critrate on steady shot?
#370SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Breakerone
Originally Posted by Goreshot View Post
Mag DPS can be a bit misleading because of the cube clicking. When you have to do it, you aren't DPSing. When you don't, your DPS is dependent upon how long the other people are willing to channel for the extra damage debuff.
Sorry for asking, but I havent been to Mag yet. So this cube clicking is some damage enhancing gimmick?
I'm always more of a fan for dps comparisons on straight dps fights with almost no movement, no dps enhancements and for some minutes at least.

So as simple an enemy as he might be, I find that Attumen is a good base for comparisons, because he has regular armor, no gimmicks, everyone does it and its basically tank'n spank.
Reaching over 1000 dps on him would really get me looking close then.
My best was around 980 dps in a WWS log, but I had my perfect group with feral, enhancement and warrior.
#371SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Osse
Originally Posted by Hullahop View Post
While Osse's dps is certainly impressive, what is up with that critrate on steady shot?
That would be because my crit rate with lotp, goa and normal buffs is ~37.

Ah, bollocks. I've logged off with gear I use for Doomwalker, it should update soon.

Last edited by Osse : 05/13/07 at 1:45 PM.
#372SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Spiry
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Sorry for asking, but I havent been to Mag yet. So this cube clicking is some damage enhancing gimmick?
I'm always more of a fan for dps comparisons on straight dps fights with almost no movement, no dps enhancements and for some minutes at least.
When he is being banished, he takes a large % more damage (not sure on exact number), however, at least in my guild, we only spend the bare minimum time clicking the cubes, in order to reduce the healing needed on the raid. Sure this means 1 or 2 minutes extra on the fight, but we manage.
#373SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Magicme
Stats?

Hey guys,

I'm planning on speccing BM for 2.1, after testing DPS with several different specs on the PTRs, but I am unsure on which stats to go for.

Do I go for AP to add to the pets damage? Or try to keep a balance between AP and Crit due to GFTT?
#374SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cranch
Originally Posted by Magicme View Post
Hey guys,

I'm planning on speccing BM for 2.1, after testing DPS with several different specs on the PTRs, but I am unsure on which stats to go for.

Do I go for AP to add to the pets damage? Or try to keep a balance between AP and Crit due to GFTT?
Load up Cheeky's spreadsheet, then compare the various builds and items. That's what it's for! Don't forget to change your shot rotation per build.
#375SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12AugustusTirion
Originally Posted by Goreshot View Post
*Actually, you may be partially right. I'll have to do some double-checking, but either pets don't get a benefit from Unleashed Fury to their initial stack or I'm missing something in the conversions. Either way, LB is a bad spell to base rAP->spelldamage conversion off of, because Blizzard treated it as a special case and nerfed it to hell.
Gore,
is it possible that 'what's missing' is the -6% dmg modifier all Scorpids have?
I didn't see it included anywhere in your math in the first post.
#376SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Goreshot
Originally Posted by AugustusTirion View Post
Gore,
is it possible that 'what's missing' is the -6% dmg modifier all Scorpids have?
I didn't see it included anywhere in your math in the first post.
Yes, it's possible. There is also the issue of the Orc Racial bonus, as well as Ferocious Inspiration. I'm still playing around with the numbers, and so far the best approximation I've been able to come up with is my original formula, when the pet is Happy. That formula matches every change in AP I've tested. However, once the pet drops down to Content, the formula gets thrown out of whack completely. Either way I'm ok with what I have shown, since I doubt most hunters even care about the numbers if their pet isn't Happy.

Something I tried to look for was taking into account the +spell coefficients that are normally used for casting class DoTs. Instants are assumed to have a 1.5 casting time for purposes of calculation, but I'm at a loss as to what the coefficient should be for an 8-second DoT. All the previous ranks are 10 seconds (of 5 ticks), but the last rank of Scorpid Poison is 8 seconds (of 4 ticks), so I'm not quite sure how the math for it works out.

Last edited by Goreshot : 05/15/07 at 6:40 PM.
#377SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
Most dots get 1/5th of your spell damage on each tic. A 15 second dot with 3 second tics is the baseline.
#378SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
Have there been any numbers posted about the raid dps value of Cobra Reflexes? I know it speeds up attacks and slightly lowers the damage for each attack (which affects Kill Command), but has there been a final determination on this?

Is CR a no-brainer for a raiding BM hunter?
#379SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
Its a must really, for more FI.
#380SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Khallas
For instance runs, I usually bring my boar from the "old world". I have him leveled to 70 now, but even when he was 60, he could tank a 65 no problem. With the right group buffs and a sporling snack (go go pet stam ), I can get him to 9k health and almost 13k armor. Shattered Halls becomes a cake walk, as even if the "tank" I have in the group sucks, I can still tank 2 mobs with the boar. And with charge stun, and Indimidate stun, and war stomp, I have 3 ways to get mobs off the healer, until my boar or the group tank can pick it up.

Even in regular grinding, the boar is not too much dps behind my cat, maybe about 10-20 dps or so. But this is easily made up in the fact that im not pulling aggro off of him, and can keep my own dps up.

Now I havent been into kara yet, nor any of the 25 mans, so I would suppose that my boar even with that much health and armor, would still probably get 1-2 shotted in alot of situations. Any thoughts on the viability of the boar being used for instances besides 5 mans?

Best thing about the boar, it will eat ANYTHING. lol. i love asking mages for 3 stacks of bread and 3 stacks of water.
#381SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
Boars are great for soloing (and charge is nice for some pvp situations). For everything else, I'd take a dps pet (cat, ravager, or wind serpent).

If you're running 5-man groups that depend on your pet's ability to tank, you've got other problems.

PS. Windserpents eat conjured bread too.
#382SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Exin
Been keeping up with this thread ever since I saw its link from Howitzers post on the hunter forums and since specced BM, and found that my DPS went way up. I was forced to leave my old guild because I was BM but joined a better one. But enough with that, I have one question, Are macros truly better then doing it by hand? And if macros are better could someone post some sort of guide of how to make a macro? I've seen some but they all seem to be for MM hunters and have MS in them and such. Thanks for any info.
#383SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by Exin View Post
Been keeping up with this thread ever since I saw its link from Howitzers post on the hunter forums and since specced BM, and found that my DPS went way up. I was forced to leave my old guild because I was BM but joined a better one. But enough with that, I have one question, Are macros truly better then doing it by hand? And if macros are better could someone post some sort of guide of how to make a macro? I've seen some but they all seem to be for MM hunters and have MS in them and such. Thanks for any info.
Macros are not better than hand-timing your rotation. The macros are effected by lag, since you can anticipate lag you can start your specials a tad early. BM rotations are tighter, so lag is going to effect them more than MM/Survival.
#384SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Serpica
The best hunters will do better dps without a macro, but most of the ones who are having trouble will benefit by using a macro.

The main line for a Steady Shot -> Auto shot macro is this:

/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot,Auto shot
#385SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Kyudo
Originally Posted by Exin View Post
Been keeping up with this thread ever since I saw its link from Howitzers post on the hunter forums and since specced BM, and found that my DPS went way up. I was forced to leave my old guild because I was BM but joined a better one. But enough with that, I have one question, Are macros truly better then doing it by hand? And if macros are better could someone post some sort of guide of how to make a macro? I've seen some but they all seem to be for MM hunters and have MS in them and such. Thanks for any info.
Your old guild made you leave for respecing to BM? Wow.

I can't hardly say that you suffered a loss, since a group that is that narrow minded probably has a number of other factors restricting their growth.
#386SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
As Cheeky stated, macros are susceptible to latency issues. Furthermore, if you're stacking haste your macro won't help you as much. This because you'll frequently find yourself attacking at variable speed, meaning your macro reset time will be screwed up (there were previous posts in this thread addressing this issue, I recommend flipping back to about page 11-12 and reading those). On top of this, learning to time your shots will simply make you a better player. The macro is handy if you're unfamiliar with timing and you're marks or survival (slower weapons) and still learning things, but ultimately it's a crutch.
#387SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12AugustusTirion
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
As Cheeky stated, macros are susceptible to latency issues. Furthermore, if you're stacking haste your macro won't help you as much. This because you'll frequently find yourself attacking at variable speed, meaning your macro reset time will be screwed up (there were previous posts in this thread addressing this issue, I recommend flipping back to about page 11-12 and reading those). On top of this, learning to time your shots will simply make you a better player. The macro is handy if you're unfamiliar with timing and you're marks or survival (slower weapons) and still learning things, but ultimately it's a crutch.
Sorry, but you're wrong.

Alot of folks misunderstand the "reset=x" portion.
The reset is the # of seconds of NOT pressing the macro key before it goes back to the start of the castsequence.

Haste effects will not interfer with a simple auto, steady castsequence.

Latency might
#388SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by AugustusTirion View Post
Sorry, but you're wrong.

Alot of folks misunderstand the "reset=x" portion.
The reset is the # of seconds of NOT pressing the macro key before it goes back to the start of the castsequence.

Haste effects will not interfere with a simple auto, steady castsequence.

Latency might
You're correct, I misinterpreted that. However, stacked haste will still amplify the problems caused by latency (as I understand it, a cast sequence macro requires confirmation from the server that the previous spell was cast; this essentially doubles your latency as you have an outgoing and an incoming message for which to account). Stacking haste means a smaller window into which you can fit a shot; effectively doubling latency then becomes a serious issue.
#389SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Exin
Originally Posted by Kyudo View Post
Your old guild made you leave for respecing to BM? Wow.

I can't hardly say that you suffered a loss, since a group that is that narrow minded probably has a number of other factors restricting their growth.

Not essentially kicked out as much as ridiculed constantly even though I was #1 DPS quite frequently... and I got an offer from a MUCH better guild.

The only reason I was really considering a macro was because I wasnt sure how fitting in KC was really going to work, could some one elaborate on how they do? Or dont you?
#390SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12beann
If you are timing your shots manually you can still make a macro for each one that has KC as the beginning lines. You can also save yourself some money by adding in some /equip lines for cheaper ammo.
#391SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Krypt
I assume that if you are BM you will prodominatly be using Auto/Steady and perhaps Multi rotations. If this is the case it would be quite simple to do a: /cast Kill Command /cast Steady Shot macro, this to the best of my knowledge would be the best way to use Kill Command, without taking time or focus out of your rotations.

Are you saying Beann that Steady Shot is not affected by ammo DPS?
#392SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Lactose
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
Are you saying Beann that Steady Shot is not affected by ammo DPS?
Correct.
#393SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Tazrach
LAtency is something I hear alot about in terms of effecting our shot rotations, DPS and macros, but i have never had anyone quantify it and say if you have X latency you should adjust in Y manner. Anyone have any wisdom to share on this subject?

Taz
#394SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by Tazrach View Post
LAtency is something I hear alot about in terms of effecting our shot rotations, DPS and macros, but i have never had anyone quantify it and say if you have X latency you should adjust in Y manner. Anyone have any wisdom to share on this subject?

Taz
There's not really a one-size-fits-all answer to latency. I think the general consensus is to learn to time your special casts so that you start them far enough before the auto shot timer expires that the message from client to server gets recieved just after the auto shot event is finished. If you go too early you clobber the auto shot, and the later you go the more dead time you spend not DPSing. It always better to be later than earlier, for obvious reasons.

As your haste effects, base weapon speed, or latency change you need to reasjust your timing. It's annoying, especially with an unsteady internet connection.

If you have really low (<100 ms) latency I'd recommend using one of the cast sequence macros, since you won't be losing much to lag. Or you could move to a simple auto/special rotation all of the time. I think most MM/Survival hunters try to slot 2 specials (Steady + Arcane/Multi) in between auto shots with the slower, epic weapons.
#395SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Tazrach
Well i am in the Caribbean and have arounf 400ms or more pretty much constantly. My DPS seems to very wildly using the same technique I will sometimes do great other time my dps wil be in the crapper.

Is there a spec you would consider more forgiving to a high latency hunter?

Taz
#396SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Norwest
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Well, according to WoWWiki pets will tick for 25 focus every 4 seconds. [EDIT]Glau has corrected this, it's actually 24.5 focus per 4. The remainder of this post will be updated to reflect that. So that's 6.125 focus per second and each point in Bestial Discipline adds 3.0625 focus per second. GftT adds

...

If you're at 25% to crit, 1 point in BD will keep your pet fat and happy, in terms of focus. If you're at 20% to crit, 2 points are required to keep your pet contstantly autocasting.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I have to disagree with your conclusion here. I understand your math and I agree with your that "25% to crit, 1 point in BD" will generate the same total focus as can be burned. I disagree that this will result in your pet having enough focus at all times. The regen is simply too bursty and the buffer of focus is too small to look at it as an average.

A double crit with a regen tick can restore 149 focus in half a second or a dry streak can leave your pet generating 12.25 focus per second for some time. Neither of those scenarios are particularly unlikely, and the small buffer means you will be wasting/starved for focus fairly often.

Starving focus on a pet can have a cascade effect of missing skills, dropping frenzy, dropping FI. Bestial discipline is likely better at preventing that than GFTT, simply because it's reliable. I'd be very careful of taking points out of it.
#397SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12AndrewCarr
Originally Posted by Tazrach View Post
Well i am in the Caribbean and have arounf 400ms or more pretty much constantly. My DPS seems to very wildly using the same technique I will sometimes do great other time my dps wil be in the crapper.

Is there a spec you would consider more forgiving to a high latency hunter?

Taz


Hmm.. why not try BM with a slow bow? Then you only have to use 1 special per auto, and it should give you plenty of room to work with. My main issue with latency atm is that it's spikey, so I'll get a few rotations in fine, then chain cast 2 autos etc. etc., or spend 5s casting a steady. If your ping's like that, and not a steady 400ms, then I don't think any spec will make the rotation doable.
#398SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Tazrach
Yeah i was thinking BM, problem is I think EW has a place in a raid group and as hunter class lead and hunter with highest AGI I see that duty falling to me.

Taz
#399SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Sapa
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
The best hunters will do better dps without a macro, but most of the ones who are having trouble will benefit by using a macro.

The main line for a Steady Shot -> Auto shot macro is this:

/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot,Auto shot
I don't agree with "best hunters = 0 macro"

As BM with 2.1 speed (2.9 original - sunfury)and using lots of haste effects (troll, kiss, abacus, 3min rapid, imp.hawk), and 50-80ms ping i found myself to be best of with auto-steady macro + manual MS & Arcane.
Though Arcane is slowly getting forgotten.

Manually timing shots seemed "right" but actually i always fired 2-3 shots less in same time frame (5 min) opposed to macro. (did testing without haste effects + hasted later) Hasted results for manual auto - steady were disaster, had maybe 2/10 seemingly perfect runs.

But as MM i don't stand macro at 2.54 speed, im better without and timing manually - got used to Rhokdelar trough bwl, aq40, naxx (yes 46x TheDog said no..)

Macro might not be best for dps, but reduces need to focus on autoshot bar for 4-5h. Thus increasing "amount" of focus for other things. Like CDs, mana, pressing HS right time, KTM, CCed mobs, other players(like other hunters, that are under your lead) or raid leading. Generally increasing performance in other areas.

Just mu Point of View on Macro thing.

PS. reset=3 is not required. reset=target might be helpful tho. (resets macro if target is changed)
#400SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
50-80ms ping
That right there is the reason why you can use a macro without issue. Try performing the same rotation with the macro at 250+ ms ping and you'll see a world of difference. I know I almost never see ping times lower than 110 in raids, and I play in the US on a US server over a fiber optic connection. You have a great connection to Blizzard's servers.
#401SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I have to disagree with your conclusion here. I understand your math and I agree with your that "25% to crit, 1 point in BD" will generate the same total focus as can be burned. I disagree that this will result in your pet having enough focus at all times. The regen is simply too bursty and the buffer of focus is too small to look at it as an average.

A double crit with a regen tick can restore 149 focus in half a second or a dry streak can leave your pet generating 12.25 focus per second for some time. Neither of those scenarios are particularly unlikely, and the small buffer means you will be wasting/starved for focus fairly often.

Starving focus on a pet can have a cascade effect of missing skills, dropping frenzy, dropping FI. Bestial discipline is likely better at preventing that than GFTT, simply because it's reliable. I'd be very careful of taking points out of it.
You're right, but for a BM Hunter who's going after Mortal Shots, they need to spend MM points somewhere, might as well be in GFtT, and taking a point or two from BD allows them to put it somewhere else in BM they might use in another way to help their pet. Tier 3 MM is a talent point sink for a BM Hunter, so any point they can make useful is a huge bonus.
#402SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12
Edited onPatch 2.0.12
Norwest
IMHO the best hunters understand the advantages/disadvantages of macros and use both as the situation warrants.

I know I will be using macros on trash, farmed content, if I'm tired, if I'm busy looking at pron, if my ping is unreliable, if I'm raidleading, or if it's more important that I focus on things other than DPS.

I'll manually time my shots on new content, if I'm trying to beat my wife, if I'm burning pricey arrows, if high DPS is critical etc.

Edit: If I'm trying to beat my wife on DPS that is.

Last edited by Norwest : 05/17/07 at 1:52 PM. Reason: To clarify that I don't smack my wife around.
#403SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I have to disagree with your conclusion here. I understand your math and I agree with your that "25% to crit, 1 point in BD" will generate the same total focus as can be burned. I disagree that this will result in your pet having enough focus at all times. The regen is simply too bursty and the buffer of focus is too small to look at it as an average.

A double crit with a regen tick can restore 149 focus in half a second or a dry streak can leave your pet generating 12.25 focus per second for some time. Neither of those scenarios are particularly unlikely, and the small buffer means you will be wasting/starved for focus fairly often.

Starving focus on a pet can have a cascade effect of missing skills, dropping frenzy, dropping FI. Bestial discipline is likely better at preventing that than GFTT, simply because it's reliable. I'd be very careful of taking points out of it.
You're not misunderstanding me; I'm just using a statistical average to say ON AVERAGE with that talent arrangement you'll be able to autocast. For an arbitrarily long period of time crits are distributed as a Poisson Distribution (that is, they're independent events with a known average frequency), so it's not an invalid model.

If you make the assumption that you can only cast LB or Bite after a crit (from the 50 focus from GFTT), which probably isn't valid for bite but might be reasonable for LB, you can simply model time between crits as time between casts. Shots between crits is 1/C and time between crits is 1/(R*C), where C is the crit rate and R is the rate of fire. If you want to truly be able to spam LB you have to have the focus available to cast LB before it comes off of cooldown (in this case, the GCD). With a Sunfury bow this would be
R=1/2.1
1.5=1/(R*C)
C=2/3R
C=0.317=140%
If you're just autoshooting, you can't get enough crits to sustain LB (i.e. crit rate would be over 100%). If you're doing 1 special / auto (that is, doubling attack rate), then
R=2/2.1
1.5=1/(R*C)
C=2/3R
C=0.635=63.5%
You can have LB spam constantly, but the necessary crit rate is absurdly high. You can lower the required crit rate to spam LB by lowering attack speed (increasing attack rate). To get the requisite crit to 50%, you'd need an attack speed of
C=0.50
1.5=1/(R*C)
R=2/3C=4/3
A=2/R=1.5
This would be an attack speed of 1.5 (assuming 1 special/auto). This result shouldn't be surprising because if you do 2 shots every 1.5 seconds, and half of them crit, you're averaging 1 crit every 1.5 seconds (which is just enough to cast LB every CD). The concept seems fairly obvious: time between crits (and LBs) is inversely proportional to rate of fire and crit rate. Remember, though, that I've assumed no inherent regen here (I've assumed 1 crit = 1 LB, no BD and no innate regen).

I'm not sure what else to tell you; the only way I can provide information about pet regeneration is through averaging (or simulation, which will probably agree with the average model fairly closely). GFTT, on average, is vastly superior to BD; it is, however, reliant on a probabilistic event (a critical strike).

Final point: I have 2/2 BD and 2/2 GFTT and my cat virtually never runs out of focus. If you're really concerned about getting enough focus regen, take 2/2 BD and 2/2 GFTT.
#404SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Grogzor
Sigh, it seems we are losing Howitzer...it is a sad day.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...id=1&pageNo=23
#405SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Cheeky
According to a few posts below we'll be loosing Glau too.
#406SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
That's unfortunate, but I can understand the frustration (I'm not at that point, I take frequent WoW breaks to play WC3 and other games). The level of problems with the class on an on-going basis and total lack of feedback from Blizzard definitely can wear a person down. I hope you two find your future endeavors more fruitful, it's a shame to lose two respected members of the community.
#407SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Glaurong
I'm not dead/dying. I'm just leveling a mage :p.

I didn't think here was the appropriate place to say what I did in that thread. Goodbye cruel world stuff is official forums material.
#408SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12 Grogzor
Question if any of you know, how does

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30892

compare to either http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31006 or http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32264. Is the increase to pets DPS better then the increase to personal DPS by either of the other two?
#409SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Osse
I'll take as many t6 pieces as I can till 4 set bonus is working. :p
#410SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12Shaile
Originally Posted by Grogzor View Post
Question if any of you know, how does

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30892

compare to either http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31006 or http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32264. Is the increase to pets DPS better then the increase to personal DPS by either of the other two?
for a bm they are superior too the shoulders of the hidden predator. the value of pet stats is about 30% of equal stat for yourself(3% crit to pet is about 1% crit for you, ignoring KC, FI procs, gftt focus etc).
im happy blizzard has reconsidered the way they were going with the leggings of beast mastery which real value for your total dps output is 1/3 of the listed value which makes them extremely lackluster.
apparently they improved the useless leggings of beast mastery too, adding 45 stam and 30 agi. making them okayish BM non raiding pants. although i would have preferred pet crit instead of 350 armor and pet dmg instead of pet stamina, but you cant get everything i guess blizzard aimed more at the casuals with those pants than raiding BM hunters.
#411SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12senior toasted bread
What about a 20/41/0 build? i have not seen anything about this(perhaps because this is a thread about bm builds), it is part bm so it may warrant some discusion.
#412SourcePosted on Patch 2.0.12The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by senior toasted bread View Post
What about a 20/41/0 build? I have not seen anything about this (perhaps because this is a thread about bm builds), it is part BM so it may warrant some discussion.
That's really a marks build, I'd say check the Hunter Mechanics thread, as that deals heavily with hunter/player based mechanics (i.e. less focus on pets and more about hunter stats).
#413SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692ForestBoy
This thread has been a great resource. Once the servers are up I'll be respeccing and retooling my gear to give BM a shot. I was wondering what people thought about IAOTH as a talent for BM, and also their thoughts on rapid fire. What is the ideal shot sequence if one or both procs are up? I have a 2.8spd bow. I was considering not taking IAOTH as I'm concerned that the haste effect would mess with my shot sequence and I'd be clipping autos all over the place.
#414SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Fekta
Originally Posted by ForestBoy View Post
This thread has been a great resource. Once the servers are up I'll be respeccing and retooling my gear to give BM a shot. I was wondering what people thought about IAOTH as a talent for BM, and also their thoughts on rapid fire. What is the ideal shot sequence if one or both procs are up? I have a 2.8spd bow. I was considering not taking IAOTH as I'm concerned that the haste effect would mess with my shot sequence and I'd be clipping autos all over the place.
Well I cant speak in complete truth as I have never used BM in a raid setting but I will offer my thoughts on it. To answer your question about imp AoTH and shot rotations I would opt to take it and clip a rotation w/ a proc rather than not have it at all.

Just look at it like this 2.8 at 15% haste from quiver brings you to 2.38 20% from serp swift brings you to 1.9. Combine that with an IAoTH proc and rapid fire you are spitting autos to the tune of .96 for 12 seconds. Now this is really the tip of the iceburg with respect to calculating the potential increase of having IAotH. If you really want to get a good idea go download Procwatch use WWS and go do some testing.
#415SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Beerbaron
Kill command

In the patch notes it says:
Kill Command has been removed from the global cooldown. The shout animation has been removed.

Does this mean KC will no longer delay autoshots?
#416SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
In the patch notes it says:
Kill Command has been removed from the global cooldown. The shout animation has been removed.

Does this mean KC will no longer delay autoshots?

Correct.
#417SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692affamu
When I was testing on the PTR, KC would still clip autoshots. It acts like an instant now, like Arcane Shot, but if you hit it too soon before an Autoshot, it will still delay the Autoshot.
#418SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692NaPoLeoN II
KC before SS

You should land your KC before your steady shots, then you shouldn't have any problems with auto shot clipping.
#419SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Reports from US servers that BM hunter pushed over 1200 dps in gruul, pets are immune to shatter and cave in and he says he got 1550 white crits with pets.
#420SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
Fuck yeah.
#421SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Cheeky
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Reports from US servers that BM hunter pushed over 1200 dps in gruul, pets are immune to shatter and cave in and he says he got 1550 white crits with pets.
If that is all true, I see a quick nerf coming. If our pets are completely immune to the AE effects of bosses they become 400+ DPS DOTs in a raid setting that require no real effort to maintain. And BM will be the spec 90% of raiding Hunters go with.

I find that to be significantly over powered compared to other DPS classes.

In terms of a 1550 crit, that means the base damage was 775, which working backwards through Happiness (+25%), FI (+3%), Unleashed Fury (+20%), Orc Racial (+5%), Cat?ravager (+10%) yields 434.3 - with 0 armor (something not true on Gruul). Since the maximum non-AP damage is 70, that's +360 damage just from pet AP, or about 2550 AP on the pet. That seems.... excessively unrealistic.

Are there screen shots or Recap/WWS data logs proving this 1550 white crit?
#422SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
Gruul is expectional fight though, its almost like Patchwerk and I did 1600 dps there a month ago when we had nostalgic run with guild.

Finally we get to use pet with its full potentional and you're thinking it needs nerf. :p

I suppose the glancing blow change is pretty huge then.

And 1550 white crit sounds a lot, I've managed 1300 on Magtheridon adds and thats pretty much the cap for me I think.
#423SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Melchior
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Reports from US servers that BM hunter pushed over 1200 dps in gruul, pets are immune to shatter and cave in and he says he got 1550 white crits with pets.
Seriously? That seems way out of whack. I wonder if there's an issue with the new Avoidance ability causing pets to be immune to Cave-in completely? Also, pets have been immune to Shatter for a while now - it's Gronn Lord's Grasp they aren't immune to, causing them to be petrified for 30 seconds per Ground Slam. Were they immune to this effect as well now?
#424SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Ourai
I've decided that today I am going to take the plunge and see what I can accomplish with BM, but I have one question I can't find an answer for.

I need to get a DPS comparison of an optimal DPS ravager and/or cat vs. an owl using screech as it's primary and claw as a secondary. I know the owl will be the lesser, but I'm trying to find out by what margin. Trying to weigh the utility of screech 5 vs. the extra dps by a cat/ravager. I tried to use Cheeky's spreadsheet but I get 504 errors all over the place. It might be due to using Open Office, I'm not sure. Anyhow, if someone could just give me even an educated estimate as to what the difference would be, I'd be very grateful.
#425SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
Go for ravager, its better.
#426SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692PessimiStick
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Go for ravager, its better.
Ravager vs. Serpent?

Post-LB nerf they are admittedly much similar, but one possible benefit of LB over Ravage is that LB can dump focus twice as fast, which should, in theory, allow a serpent to deal with rapid GftT procs in a more efficient manner than a ravager.

I'm not actually a Hunter though, my wife is, so I'm not really sure what exactly is the issue with "caster behavior" that I see mentioned about serpents a lot. I'm usually too busy stabbing shit to watch her pet. =)
#427SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Cheeky
Originally Posted by Ourai View Post
I tried to use Cheeky's spreadsheet but I get 504 errors all over the place. It might be due to using Open Office, I'm not sure.
OpenOffice barfs all over the place if you do complex inter-sheet lookups. It seems to be Excel or nothing with my spreadsheet.

Last edited by Cheeky : 05/22/07 at 3:31 PM. Reason: Formatting
#428SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
Ravager for more FI and the 3% paperdoll damage.
#429SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Gruul is expectional fight though, its almost like Patchwerk and I did 1600 dps there a month ago when we had nostalgic run with guild.

Finally we get to use pet with its full potentional and you're thinking it needs nerf. :p

I suppose the glancing blow change is pretty huge then.

And 1550 white crit sounds a lot, I've managed 1300 on Magtheridon adds and thats pretty much the cap for me I think.
There's no way you can do 1600 dps on gruul, your dps addon must be bugged. But can reach 1100 pre 2.1 with Flask.
#430SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
If that is all true, I see a quick nerf coming. If our pets are completely immune to the AE effects of bosses they become 400+ DPS DOTs in a raid setting that require no real effort to maintain. And BM will be the spec 90% of raiding Hunters go with.

I find that to be significantly over powered compared to other DPS classes.

In terms of a 1550 crit, that means the base damage was 775, which working backwards through Happiness (+25%), FI (+3%), Unleashed Fury (+20%), Orc Racial (+5%), Cat?ravager (+10%) yields 434.3 - with 0 armor (something not true on Gruul). Since the maximum non-AP damage is 70, that's +360 damage just from pet AP, or about 2550 AP on the pet. That seems.... excessively unrealistic.

Are there screen shots or Recap/WWS data logs proving this 1550 white crit?
You forget about beastial wrath. I'm sure that 1500 crit was under wrath. I also saw 1900 KC crit against Aran couple of months ago.
#431SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692PessimiStick
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
There's no way you can do 1600 dps on gruul, your dps addon must be bugged. But can reach 1100 pre 2.1 with Flask.
He said 1600 on Patchwerk, not Gruul. =p
#432SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by Melchior View Post
Seriously? That seems way out of whack. I wonder if there's an issue with the new Avoidance ability causing pets to be immune to Cave-in completely? Also, pets have been immune to Shatter for a while now - it's Gronn Lord's Grasp they aren't immune to, causing them to be petrified for 30 seconds per Ground Slam. Were they immune to this effect as well now?
They are immune to slam then I guess. Since there's no way a BM hunter can push 1200 dps otherwise. Pet must be active and damaging nonstop for that to happen.
#433SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by PessimiStick View Post
He said 1600 on Patchwerk, not Gruul. =p
Oh sorry my mistake.
#434SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
If that is all true, I see a quick nerf coming. If our pets are completely immune to the AE effects of bosses they become 400+ DPS DOTs in a raid setting that require no real effort to maintain. And BM will be the spec 90% of raiding Hunters go with.
They have been singling out effects for pets to be immune to. The criteria seems to be, if the effect requires a player to quickly react and move/stop moving its a good candidate (Flame Wreath, Cave In. If it is periodic that just has to be healed through they are still vulnerable but avoidance helps with this.
#435SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Cheeky
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
You forget about beastial wrath. I'm sure that 1500 crit was under wrath. I also saw 1900 KC crit against Aran couple of months ago.
You're right, I did forget. That actually makes the numbers pretty believable, even with Gruul's extra-high armor.

Once Kara becomes a walk in the park for my guild (8/10 currently, even though we've killed Gruul) I plan on going 41/20. I just need the "Oh Shit!" tools MM has too much right now when I'm trapping adds. BM just looks to be the best PvE Hunter build, and it's not really close at all.
#436SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Ourai
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Ravager for more FI and the 3% paperdoll damage.
Is it really enough DPS difference in comparison to the utility of the Screech debuff on the boss? My understand is the -210 ap stacks fully with Improved Curse of Weakness. That kind of damage reduction on the main target seems rather invaluable.
#437SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
Does it really reduce damage? :<

It didnt make a difference on Hydross according to the maintank at least.
#438SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Kyudo
Edit: removed to stop from feeding trolls.

Last edited by Kyudo : 05/22/07 at 5:34 PM. Reason: bad troll food.
#439SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Klorak
Question for Osse: Earlier on the PTR you attempted to tame a lvl 70 Ravager but found out that it was untamable. Do you know if this has been changed later?
#440SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
You'll see tomorrow, havent heard anything at least.
#441SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692gimpynerd
Wait... Where is this level 70 Ravager? I want to try one out but have been dreading leveling one...
#442SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
There's a new mine under the Netherwing place where all those new quests are for Netherdrakes.
#443SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
The way negative or positive AP works on bosses differs from boss to boss and from abilty to abilty. For example COR used to increase patchwerk's hateful strikes by a considerable amount but didn't do that much difference on many other bosses. Same with screech or curse of weakness. You just have to try it on every boss and see how much harder/easier they hit.
#444SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Ourai
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Does it really reduce damage? :<

It didnt make a difference on Hydross according to the maintank at least.
That's because Hydross's damage is totally unaffected by AP changes. Him being an elemental makes all his damage magical/elemental.
#445SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Teger
Just finished killing Morogrim as BM, and even though I was really unfamiliar with the shot system (first time I've ever specced BM for raiding), managed to come in 8th on the meter, beating 3 rogues. Really, really impressive buff considering I wasn't using any consumables and wasn't in that great of a group (was with Marks hunter, Prot war, and 2 rogues).
#446SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692dojke
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
The way negative or positive AP works on bosses differs from boss to boss and from abilty to abilty.
I suppose this statement could be considered somewhat correct. However the effects between mobs are quite consistent, even though not 100% identical.

For example COR used to increase patchwerk's hateful strikes by a considerable amount but didn't do that much difference on many other bosses.
Yeah that statement is totally incorrect.

For your screech needs, Curse of Weakness is the thread you want. Assuming this current 15% cap holds true globally, it seems screech does not do much if anything atm.

Edit: I'm not sure that his elemental damage has anything to do with Hydross. I was always under the impression that elementals were under the same rules for combat, just they merely hit something else (they still have str/atk/missrates/etc).
#447SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Eej
Edit: Woops, nevermind, already stated.
#448SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
CoR on Hydross makes him hit like a truck thanks to the multipliers though.

Looking at that thread you posted Dojke, seems like screech is only good if you have sloppy warriors/locks as screech will be up 100% of the time if pet is alive. :p

Dunno if its worth the 10-15 dps or what ever the increase is. (I got roughly that amount when I tested dps differences on pets in Blasted Lands)
#449SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Blyx
Ive been BM spec for a while now. Ever since my guild started working on Hydross. I learned how to keep my pet up on fights like Magtheridon, Morogrim and Karathress. Normally ide be about 5th on dps meters for those fights. Now with adding Kill Command into the works, and the various other hunter buffs, i pulled #2 dps on the two fights my guild did this evening, Magtheridon and Hydross. Below is a link to a screenie of the dps meters for the Hydross fight. Keep in mind i was in a party with a warrior, warlock, paladin and a druid, and i was using my NR aura for half the fight. Hardly what ide call the optimal dps party. The rogues and mages all had good dps party buffs.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4...7005132sm5.jpg

I basically kept my standard shot rotation of going Special - Auto - Special... (using Multi > Arcane > Steady) and just hotkeyed Kill Command and spammed it whenever it was up. It definatly wasnt the best way to incorporate KC into my rotations, but I've litterally never used it raiding before... Avoidance + Mend Pet kept my pet up on Magtheridon even without speccing my pet for FR and SR, or having a shadow priest in my party. And Cobra Reflexes guarenteed that Ferocious Inspiration was always up. Im just posting this to demonstrate one hunters experience with BM raiding in 2.1. Ill most likely update on more pet unfriendly encounters like Void Reaver when i get to them.

One thing ide like to ask though is how you guys would suggest working KC into the rotations. Is there some way to make it go off whenever it comes up without me conciously clicking the button for it?
#450SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Blyx View Post
One thing ide like to ask though is how you guys would suggest working KC into the rotations. Is there some way to make it go off whenever it comes up without me conciously clicking the button for it?
I've macro'd KC to steady shot. Given that I cast steady shot frequently, I never miss a chance to cast KC (although I don't always cast it as soon as it is ready). Just make sure to put KC before steady shot in the macro and it should work just fine.
#451SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Alidien
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I've macro'd KC to steady shot. Given that I cast steady shot frequently, I never miss a chance to cast KC (although I don't always cast it as soon as it is ready). Just make sure to put KC before steady shot in the macro and it should work just fine.
Can anyone confirm that this doesn't waste 75 mana if your pet is out of range of the mob? I'm not able to test it myself for a few hours, but the KC mechanics would lead me to believe that even though your pet is next to you or far away from the mob when you cast KC, the 75 mana is used even though you get the Out of range error.
#452SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
It does waste 75 mana hence why you need to have two macros.

I havent tried this yet, though.

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();
#453SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Trident
Originally Posted by Alidien View Post
Can anyone confirm that this doesn't waste 75 mana if your pet is out of range of the mob? I'm not able to test it myself for a few hours, but the KC mechanics would lead me to believe that even though your pet is next to you or far away from the mob when you cast KC, the 75 mana is used even though you get the Out of range error.
It wouldn't use mana. However, the macro will halt because Kill Command can't cast, which can really mess your rotation up.

Edit: Just read Osse's reply. Maybe it does waste mana, although I was quite sure it didn't. I'll go test soon.
#454SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
I've never had it prevent steady from casting...not sure what would lead you to think it would do that. I hadn't even thought of it using mana, but I'm inclined to believe it wouldn't, since it gives me an out of range error when this has happened in the past. That would be like letting rogues waste energy trying to SS a target that's out of range. Doesn't really make an sense to me, but I'm interested in seeing how the tests go.
#455SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Alidien
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I've never had it prevent steady from casting...not sure what would lead you to think it would do that. I hadn't even thought of it using mana, but I'm inclined to believe it wouldn't, since it gives me an out of range error when this has happened in the past. That would be like letting rogues waste energy trying to SS a target that's out of range. Doesn't really make an sense to me, but I'm interested in seeing how the tests go.
The only reason for me believing that it wasted mana was the special mechanics of KC. "It's a command to your pet" kinda thing and wouldn't really compare to a rogue wasting energy on a SS out of range error. You can give your pet a command, even though the pet won't be able to follow it.

Originally Posted by Osse View Post
It does waste 75 mana hence why you need to have two macros.
So you are saying we should have 1 macro that includes Kill Command, and 1 macro without KC for the normal Steady - Auto rotation? (Or no macro at all if you prefer to time it yourself)
#456SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Sorry, I know this gets explained once a week and I always forget it, but what exactly does the "reset=3" part again?
#457SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Dryw
The macro resets to the first spell in the castsequence 3 seconds after the last use
#458SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Trident
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I've never had it prevent steady from casting...not sure what would lead you to think it would do that. I hadn't even thought of it using mana, but I'm inclined to believe it wouldn't, since it gives me an out of range error when this has happened in the past. That would be like letting rogues waste energy trying to SS a target that's out of range. Doesn't really make an sense to me, but I'm interested in seeing how the tests go.
Apologies for the misinformation.

I could almost swear that, previously on the PTR, a macro with Kill Command before Steady Shot would halt if my pet wasn't in range. Instead it now uses the mana, if the pet is in range or not.
#459SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Trohck
While casting KC no longer triggers the global cooldown, it still delays your next special by your latency*2, yes?

I'm using an Auto+2 Specials shot rotation, so it is already quite tight. My latency is about 200ms. Now instead of:

0.00 Auto
0.2 Steady
1.7 GCD finishes
1.9 Special
2.52 Auto
3.4 GCD finishes
3.6. Steady
5.1 GCD finishes
5.3 Special
5.8 Auto

I can do:

0.00 Auto
0.2 Steady
1.7 GCD finishes
1.9 Special
2.52 Auto
3.4 GCD finishes
3.4 Kill Command
3.6 Server lets me cast again
3.8 Steady
5.3 GCD finishes
5.5 Special
6.0 Auto

At this point I'm chopping off almost half of my auto and I have to wonder if it's worth it.

This leads me to believe it's only worth using KC when you're threading one special (and even two-special rotations have to settle for one special every so often when GCD catches up to them). Thoughts?

Last edited by Trohck : 05/23/07 at 7:08 PM. Reason: updated KC timing numbers
#460SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Beerbaron
Originally Posted by Klorak View Post
Question for Osse: Earlier on the PTR you attempted to tame a lvl 70 Ravager but found out that it was untamable. Do you know if this has been changed later?
any word on the lvl 70 ravagers? my server was down all day for hardware changes.
#461SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Originally Posted by Dryw View Post
The macro resets to the first spell in the castsequence 3 seconds after the last use
But why is that neccessary? I use my castseqence macro without it and it works perfectly. Do I need to add it because of the kill command?
#462SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Jide
Originally Posted by Beerbaron View Post
any word on the lvl 70 ravagers? my server was down all day for hardware changes.
If they're supposed to be in the netherwing mines I can't atleast find any. It's all just flayers, bursters, slimes and a few humanoids.

Ah, can see one now. Sadly they can not be timed still

Last edited by Jide : 05/23/07 at 12:00 PM. Reason: spoke too soon
#463SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sozar
I'm confused about the Kill Command macro. How is it supposed to function?

Will it replace your Steady with a KC if available?
Or is it supposed to cast the KC AND still cast the Steady?

I see the former behavior in my macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();
#464SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
While casting KC no longer triggers the global cooldown, it still delays your next special by your latency*2, yes?

I'm using an Auto+2 Specials shot rotation, so it is already quite tight. My latency is about 200ms. Now instead of:

0.00 Auto
0.2 Steady
1.7 GCD finishes
1.9 Special
2.52 Auto
3.4 GCD finishes
3.6. Steady
5.1 GCD finishes
5.3 Special
5.8 Auto

I can do:

0.00 Auto
0.2 Steady
1.7 GCD finishes
1.9 Special
2.52 Auto
3.4 GCD finishes
3.6 Kill Command
3.8 Server lets me cast again
4.0 Steady
5.5 GCD finishes
5.7 Special
6.2 Auto

At this point I'm chopping off almost half of my auto and I have to wonder if it's worth it.

This leads me to believe it's only worth using KC when you're threading one special (and even two-special rotations have to settle for one special every so often when GCD catches up to them). Thoughts?
Good info.

So I was using the following macro last night but kept getting the clunking noise (like the sound when you open up your paper doll window).

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

The macro also does not feel as smooth as pre-2.1 when I was just using:

/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot

Even though KC is off the GCD and the shout animation has been removed, it seems that KC still delays autoshot by a little bit, which shows with your data above.



I am wondering if the macro below would run smoother (reduce the clunking noise)? I don't expect it to fix the delay to autoshot though.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


Also, I guess it comes down to...is it worth it to use KC in a shot rotation at the expense of a slightly delayed autoshot now or is the delay to autoshot insignificant when factoring in the extra DPS that KC might give you?
#465SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Trohck
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
Even though KC is off the GCD and the shout animation has been removed, it seems that KC still delays autoshot by a little bit, which shows with your data above.
Note that I didn't record my numbers in a combat log, it was just my intuitive feel as I tried to integrate KC into my rotation. Based on previous knowledge of the mechanics and how KC felt, I'm pretty sure they're accurate.

As far as delaying autoshot goes, KC is still a cast and autoshot has a 0.5s cast time. So if you KC right before an auto shot, you'll still delay it:

0.00 Autoshot (next at 2.52)
2.3 Cast KC
2.5 Server gets KC, KC occurs
--autoshot cast time--
3.0 Autoshot
#466SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
Note that I didn't record my numbers in a combat log, it was just my intuitive feel as I tried to integrate KC into my rotation. Based on previous knowledge of the mechanics and how KC felt, I'm pretty sure they're accurate.

As far as delaying autoshot goes, KC is still a cast and autoshot has a 0.5s cast time. So if you KC right before an auto shot, you'll still delay it:

0.00 Autoshot (next at 2.52)
2.3 Cast KC
2.5 Server gets KC, KC occurs
--autoshot cast time--
3.0 Autoshot
I highly recommend looking at the posts 1-3 pages back that deal with KC timing. Several of us were able to cast KC within 0.5s of autoshots. I was able to delay arcane shot with KC, however. I suspect that this is due to the latency issues (there's a 2*latency delay before you can make your next cast). I'm not knowledgeable of how to use spellstopcast type commands in macros, can someone who knows more explain how you might be able to make this work?

All you're interested in doing is making sure the server knows you hit KC, not in the response from the server saying "ok you cast KC". It is my understanding that you can use spellstopcast type commands to tell the client to stop casting (i.e. don't wait for a response that the spell was cast) and cast another spell. Will this work (it's worth noting that spellstopcast stops autoshot, so if you use it you'll have to add /cast auto shot to the end of the macro to make it resume casting)?
#467SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Norwest
Bad post, removed.

That's smaller than I thought. But when talking about split second mechanics like this, lag is a huge factor and I haven't taken that into account.

Last edited by Norwest : 05/23/07 at 2:58 PM. Reason: Wrong information
#468SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Furo
The 70 Ravagers in SMV are not tamable.

Better start leveling the 63.
#469SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Trohck
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I highly recommend looking at the posts 1-3 pages back that deal with KC timing. Several of us were able to cast KC within 0.5s of autoshots.
Thanks for pointing me at that, I should have looked more closely before I posted. However, my conclusion does not change.

4/27 01:44:27.890 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 507.
4/27 01:44:30.406 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 582.
4/27 01:44:32.890 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 589.
4/27 01:44:35.421 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 493.
4/27 01:44:37.859 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 498.
4/27 01:44:40.484 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 548.
4/27 01:44:43.046 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 546.
4/27 01:44:45.593 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 558.
4/27 01:44:47.984 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 480.
...
4/27 01:45:43.281 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1289.
4/27 01:45:45.812 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 249.
4/27 01:45:46.515 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 564.
...
4/27 01:46:09.968 Your Auto Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 1554.
4/27 01:46:12.609 Stark's Kill Command hits Servant of Sevine for 254.
4/27 01:46:13.203 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 651.
There are many other cases that I've cut out that where KC and autoshot appear to occur within .5s of each other. But remember that autoshot has a travel time, so the number could easily be misleading. So it's hard just by looking at logs to compare when KC is cast to when the autoshot actually is fired.

However, with this data you can make a pretty solid case that KC *can* delay autoshot. We can see from the first part of the above log that autoshot is taking anywhere between 2.391 seconds and 2.625 seconds to fire.

Yet later, when KC is weaved, autoshot takes 3.234 and 3.235 seconds to fire, respectively. So either the hunter / mob moved during this time, or KC can delay autoshot.
#470SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Fugazor
On other topic...

Just did Gruul and pet was immune to shatter damage and also was NOT stoned for 30 sec like before. I really do not think also that pet damage other people with shatter yet I cannot say for sure (anyway to check it? there was no whine from other people about it so I think it did not happen).

EDIT: Pet also seems to be immune to shadow bolt volley at Mag.
Also when you die your pet loose all buffs.

Last edited by Fugazor : 05/23/07 at 3:38 PM.
#471SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
 Glaurong
From my testing, I've seen that KC can delay auto shot but the conditions where this happens occur fairly infrequently. Those being, you cast KC almost exactly before your auto shot animation begins. The time frame seems incredibly small and is pretty hard to reproduce. It seems to exhibit the exact same behavior as Arcane Shot. If you have already started your auto shot animation, neither ability will delay anything.

Edit: A bit of information about KC in macros.

You do not need to specify [target=pettarget], that is already implied in the basic /cast Kill Command macro.

If you try to use KC in a /castsequence spam macro you need to use /cast [pet] Kill Command. If your pet is dead and you do not have the [pet] qualifier it will get stuck in a "You are already doing something" state.

Last edited by Glaurong : 05/23/07 at 3:59 PM.
#472SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Edit: A bit of information about KC in macros.

You do not need to specify [target=pettarget], that is already implied in the basic /cast Kill Command macro.
If my pet is on a different target than I am and I crit, don't I have to be on the same target as my pet to be able to use KC? If so, that is why I use [target=pettarget]. Now that I think of it, if this is the case, do I also need to add /targetlasttarget after the /kc so that I go back to my original target? I forgot to test this last night.

Example:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/targetlasttarget
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
#473SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Serpica
So if I have my pet on Curator and I'm attacking the adds and I crit and use Kill Command, my pet will use Kill Command on his target and not on mine?

So it should be like this?

My example:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [pet] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
#474SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
So if I have my pet on Curator and I'm attacking the adds and I crit and use Kill Command, my pet will use Kill Command on his target and not on mine?
I have always experienced an error if you hit KC while not on the same target as your pet. That is why I added:

/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command

But maybe it changed this patch?
#475SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Trohck
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
So if I have my pet on Curator and I'm attacking the adds and I crit and use Kill Command, my pet will use Kill Command on his target and not on mine?
Yes. Try it for yourself, fight two things at once, put your pet on one and shoot at the other.
#476SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
So if I have my pet on Curator and I'm attacking the adds and I crit and use Kill Command, my pet will use Kill Command on his target and not on mine?
Correct, this is the exact behavior I noticed last night while clearing trash. I often switch targets and leave my pet on whatever he is killing so I don't lose DPS while he is running around. He would KC his target, not try to KC mine and trigger an OOR message.

My autopilot macro:

/castsequence reset=2/target/combat Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [pet] Kill Command
#477SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Trohck
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
From my testing, I've seen that KC can delay auto shot but the conditions where this happens occur fairly infrequently. Those being, you cast KC almost exactly before your auto shot animation begins. The time frame seems incredibly small and is pretty hard to reproduce. It seems to exhibit the exact same behavior as Arcane Shot. If you have already started your auto shot animation, neither ability will delay anything.
I'd be willing to buy this explanation. Regardless, in a two-special rotation you wouldn't want to fire KC next to Auto. In a two-special rotation you are spanning your GCD across autos as much as possible, and KC'ing before an auto would violate this principle.

I'll try to do some updating of my simulator to find out whether it's worth it to insert KC into existing shot rotations. My gut feel is that it is only worth it if you have incredibly low latency. By adding KC, you're inserting an extra latency*2 into your rotation, and you're wasting valuable GCD time (and as a result, auto time). It's a shame that removing KC from the GCD further exacerbates the 2.0 problem where latency has a huge impact on hunter DPS.

Certainly KC is much better now for levelling or raid encounters where you need to move while your pet remains stationary.
#478SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
I'll try to do some updating of my simulator to find out whether it's worth it to insert KC into existing shot rotations. My gut feel is that it is only worth it if you have incredibly low latency. By adding KC, you're inserting an extra latency*2 into your rotation, and you're wasting valuable GCD time (and as a result, auto time). It's a shame that removing KC from the GCD further exacerbates the 2.0 problem where latency has a huge impact on hunter DPS.
I'm not sure I follow when you say KC introduces 2xlatency into a rotation. Spamming your old rotation macro with a KC line inserted just tosses a KC in whenever possible. There is a small chance it will delay an auto shot by a few tenths of a second but I don't see where latency comes into play, or why that extra damage wouldn't be a good thing.
#479SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Trohck
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I'm not sure I follow when you say KC introduces 2xlatency into a rotation. Spamming your old rotation macro with a KC line inserted just tosses a KC in whenever possible. There is a small chance it will delay an auto shot by a few tenths of a second but I don't see where latency comes into play, or why that extra damage wouldn't be a good thing.
I didn't use a rotation macro before. Spamming any given macro automatically reduces your accuracy to as fast as you can hit a single button, yes? And it also doesn't allow for good adaption if you need to move, etc.

Basically the idea is that I am weaving KC between two specials due to that being the only time when my GCD is available to cast it. So the situation goes something like (L=latency):

0.00: Steady
1.50: GCD from Steady finishes
1.50: I hit KC
- can't cast Arcane here because the client thinks I am casting a different spell -
1.50 + L: KC arrives at the server, server sends "you cast this" to the client
1.50 + 2L: Cast Arcane, since client now allows me to cast again

Perhaps this could be reduced to just L if I put /stopcasting in front of Arcane so the client will allow me to cast while KC is still travelling to the server?

In practice I found it very difficult to weave KC in without incurring a significant timing hit. Maybe I'm approaching it the wrong way, though. I'm open to suggestions as to how to improve it.
#480SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I'm not sure I follow when you say KC introduces 2xlatency into a rotation. Spamming your old rotation macro with a KC line inserted just tosses a KC in whenever possible. There is a small chance it will delay an auto shot by a few tenths of a second but I don't see where latency comes into play, or why that extra damage wouldn't be a good thing.
Shouldn't you be leveling your mage?

I kid, I kid. Anyway, that's a good explanation of KC mechanics (better than mine by far). The [pet] KC information is new to me; I suspect that will preclude me from having to use spellstopcasting type tricks to make it work.

The latency issue is related to the "you are already doing something" type errors; if you cast KC you have to wait time t=latency before the server responds and tells you the action is complete. During this time you can't start casting another shot, but it would appear [pet] will resolve this issue. I'll test it out tonight in Karazhan and report my results.
#481SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Glaurong
The macro I mentioned works very well for me since I usually run with a sub 100ms ping. I am BM so arcane shot and Multi Shot have relatively low value from a damage per mana perspective. I can increase my DPS output by about 30 if I include multi and arcane but nearly double my mana consumption. I bound the macro to both shift+mouse wheel up and shift+mouse wheel down. So I can hold shift and roll my mouse wheel back and forth. The reset conditions of 2 seconds, dropped combat or a changed target keep things behaving when I have to run around or DPS adds.

If you need to use key presses for all your shots you can simply make a macro for each one and include a KC + stop casting line in each.

For example:

*modifying the KC cast line a bit, need to test to make sure it works when your pet is dead. This should only try to cast KC if your pet exists and isn't dead)

#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast Arcane Shot

Edit: Mage is 55! RL friends still need Glau for various things so I'm keeping him up to date
#482SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Chuu
First day as raiding with BM, hard to judge. We did some easy stuff (grull -> mag -> void reaver). Was right in the middle of the rogue pack for Magtheridon who were miles ahead of anyone else on DPS and top dps for Grull thanks to rogues dying, however every other fight was up in the air. Dead last for void reaver, however I am thinking of getting a cat with full AR for TK25 to help out.

Unfortunately for some reason my guild thinks attributing pet dps to the player is unfair, so I'm pretty much back in the position that I need to go some variant of EW spec to raid
#483SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Chuu View Post
First day as raiding with BM, hard to judge. We did some easy stuff (grull -> mag -> void reaver). Was right in the middle of the rogue pack for Magtheridon who were miles ahead of anyone else on DPS and top dps for Grull thanks to rogues dying, however every other fight was up in the air. Dead last for void reaver, however I am thinking of getting a cat with full AR for TK25 to help out.

Unfortunately for some reason my guild thinks attributing pet dps to the player is unfair, so I'm pretty much back in the position that I need to go some variant of EW spec to raid
Tell them they are welcome to invite your pet without you if they think that'll be more fair. Not lumping in pet dps is silly, especially when you're specced to amp your pet.

Also, I spent some time toying with my macros, I came up with these:
#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast Arcane Shot
/cast Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Just replace arcane shot with steady shot and multi-shot to get 3 macros for those shots. I time my shots manually, so I don't have a sequence macro, but eh. Stopcasting WILL stop your autoshot, so you have to put that in to get it to keep going. Also, without stopcasting my kill command would stop my arcane/steady/multi from casting. Anyway, that's what I'm using, but YMMV.
#484SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Goreshot
DPS is DPS. Who cares where it comes from. In raids, a pet is just a DoT with a health bar. GG stupid logic. The lengths some people will go not to think about their prejudices astounds me. Tell them that they should inform Blizzard that pet DPS shouldn't count against bosses, either, because it isn't fair. So any damage done against anything by a pet is "fake" damage and shouldn't actually reduce the HP of the target mob. Because pets are just for show.

I'm about 30 seconds from going Super Saiyan Level 7 and burninating your entire guild.
#485SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Trohck
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast Arcane Shot
/cast Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Just replace arcane shot with steady shot and multi-shot to get 3 macros for those shots. I time my shots manually, so I don't have a sequence macro, but eh. Stopcasting WILL stop your autoshot, so you have to put that in to get it to keep going. Also, without stopcasting my kill command would stop my arcane/steady/multi from casting. Anyway, that's what I'm using, but YMMV.
I've tried these out and they're a definite improvement, I think cutting time down to 1*latency. However, since Steady and Multi both have a cast time, it doesn't work for them. Spamming it interrupts the shot you've just queued to cast.

Last edited by Trohck : 05/23/07 at 11:02 PM. Reason: added multi comment
#486SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Fugazor
Originally Posted by Chuu View Post
Unfortunately for some reason my guild thinks attributing pet dps to the player is unfair, so I'm pretty much back in the position that I need to go some variant of EW spec to raid
Then they should watch this all day:
http://www.youareanidiot.org/
Seriously.

I hope they atleast buff your pet, I do not even dare to ask if they heal it (unless by mistake "FS PET STOLE MY CHAIN HEAL"). No seriously... your post made me sad
#487SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Update: I hate the new kill command. It needs to be autocast, because no matter how I macro it, one of two things happens: it precludes my other shots from firing or it turns off autoshot (because I've used /cast auto shot). I'm really not this stupid, but this is really aggravating for me.
#488SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Chuu
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Update: I hate the new kill command. It needs to be autocast, because no matter how I macro it, one of two things happens: it precludes my other shots from firing or it turns off autoshot (because I've used /cast auto shot). I'm really not this stupid, but this is really aggravating for me.
I can't get in game right now, but wouldn't something like this work?

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

If I replaced all my shots with that "boundry" I'd assume that it would hit kill command every time it is up simply because of how often they are cast.
#489SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Chuu View Post
I can't get in game right now, but wouldn't something like this work?

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

If I replaced all my shots with that "boundry" I'd assume that it would hit kill command every time it is up simply because of how often they are cast.
That casts steady if kill command isn't avaiable OR kill command if it is available. I want one to do both, and I've tried a couple dozen things now and nothing is working. Ugh, so frustrating. They should have just made it pet cast instead of this, because I'm still not able to use it effectively.

Sorry for whining, I had great hopes for this. Unfortunately, it still blows.

[edit] More info: spent an hour on trash working on macro, no luck. Working on macro while in karazhan...very frustrating. Just can't get a macro that works without dropping shots or stopping autoshot; having to insert KC by hand. Ugh. Frustrated. Sorry for bitching, just disappointed with the change.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 05/23/07 at 11:44 PM.
#490SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
 Glaurong
Just got home from work, going to go work on this right now on blasted lands mobs.

Testing with my spam macro. With and without KC:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2/target/combat Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
With KC I burned all my mana in 105 seconds. In that time I fired 55 steady shots, 56 auto shots, 15 kill commands.

Rate of steady fire: ~1.9
Rate of auto fire: ~1.9

Witouto KC I burned all my mana in 124 seconds. In that time I fired 67 steady shots, 69 auto shots, 0 kill commands

Rate of steady fire: ~1.9
Rate of auto fire: ~1.8

So including the KC line didn't appreciably affect the number of steady shots or auto shots I was able to fire. Good new if you have super low latency, are BM and spam a single macro.

Working on macros for manual shot timing folks.

Edit: That was actually a lot easier than I thought.

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command
/castsequence Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
Use this macro for your Steady Shot manual casts. If Kill Command is lit up, press it twice quickly, first press will be kill command, next press will be steady shot. You can mash it as many times as you like actually. The use of /castsequence rather than /cast for the single steady shot keeps you from trying to cast another.

Last edited by Glaurong : 05/24/07 at 12:16 AM.
#491SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692alienangel
Originally Posted by Fugazor View Post
On other topic...
I really do not think also that pet damage other people with shatter yet I cannot say for sure (anyway to check it? there was no whine from other people about it so I think it did not happen).
Kinda late, but looking at WWS for a pet (http://www.sodraids.com/wws-20070522-2328/mara.html) I don't see any portion of it's damage attributed to shatter, so I'm fairly sure they don't shatter anyone (and haven't for quite a while).
#492SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by dojke View Post
Yeah that statement is totally incorrect.
I remember checking damage taken per second on OT's with and without using COR and the difference was easily seen. But there are some bosses I didn't notice much difference with and without COR.
#493SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Equalizer
Is there an accepted view on whether a Steady/Auto rotation or a rotation with Steady/Arcane/Multi/Auto is best as a BM hunter?
#494SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Glaurong
As a BM hunter, me and my pet (only hawk as a buff) will do about 1000 - 1100 dps on a blasted lands mob with Auto/Steady/KC. If I throw arcane and multi into the mix I do 1030 - 1130, ymmv.
#495SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Yippy
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Kinda late, but looking at WWS for a pet (http://www.sodraids.com/wws-20070522-2328/mara.html) I don't see any portion of it's damage attributed to shatter, so I'm fairly sure they don't shatter anyone (and haven't for quite a while).
That's correct, they haven't shattered anyone for a while. Last patch however, made them immune to the Stoned debuff aswell.
#496SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Teger
After playing as BM some more, I'm really impressed with the pet survivability changes, but I still think the spec falls short on fights that favor individual movement/have some sort of AOE. Gonna try to store up some meters from all of SSC next week, some really good damage on some fights there, but some fights where the damage was up in the air.
#497SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Osse
Here comes the bomb.

Went to Blasted Lands, this time in 2.1 patch and here is the result with this macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=w2of2n22ysd5g&a=0

~75ms so could be better. Forgot growl on for the first 3 minutes so lost a bit of dps there and kept renewing hunters mark a bit too often I think. :p

Steady shot crit is a bit low considering I have 26.77% crit with this gear, then you add 3.2% because of the level difference.

Mana use with constant KC rotation really requires fel mana pots in normal raid situation if you dont have a shadowpriest and judgements. I suppose on a normal farm status boss you only use that rotation for the first time in hunter history to 'nuke'. :p

Pet got cobra reflexes, but average KC hit and crit is still pretty nice, 373 hit and 760 crit.

We have nukes peoples!11

Any ideas for good timer mod?

Ps. got new build, switched from BD to imp mend pet and from imp HM to efficiency.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=mtbM0ggowuVoVVbRV


Anyone else been in Blasted Lands post patch?

Last edited by Osse : 05/24/07 at 3:24 AM.
#498SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692helias126
Gruul stats after 2.1

Indeed the KC is a pain to fit into the rotation without delaying some shots but i can live with it.
The new HM and the extended pet survivability put the Hunters in par with the other dps classes now at last
First raid after 2.1 on Gruul where i was usually 4th i saw a new era for Hunters http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&m&s=3817,4226
Only downside is that he droped 2xpala leg tokens :/
#499SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Krypt
I went for this Osse http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cvb00gxRVuVoVVbRV

Personally i havent seen any troubles with KC interupting a steady, I did have it set to cast with a steady like most of you however because i thought there was some delay I quick just attached it to my Arcane Shot - right next to my steady button - and just regularly spam that; works quite effectivly. Im finding that im using multishot increasingly on pulls, to proc GGFT and get some extra focus for my focus dump. However sometime wierdly I find my focus dump just cant keep up, which brings a smile to my face.

Loving BM post patch, even with a oddly bugged SW Stats, I can see a huge improvement in my personal DPS. Going to try out afew of these manual macro's see if they improve on my current situation.
#500SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Alidien
Used Osses macro in Karazhan after we did Gruul yesterday. Seemed to work as intended, however my left hand hurts after spamming a single button for 2 hours I found it a bit hard to use the macro on trashmobs, at least in Kara where they die in a couple of seconds anyway. Let's see how it works out in SSC tonight.

On Gruul I tried using normal timing, and it surely takes some training to work KC in there without interrupting the rest of the shot rotation. On a sidenote we had 2 BM hunters on the top of damage meters when Gruul was dead. Guess the other hunters in the guild were finally convinced when I did 100k more damage then them on Hydross the other night.

Osse: Are the 2 points you spend in Spirit Bond really worth it? Even though BD + GffT is a focus overload for the pet, wouldn't at least 1 point in BD ensure that your pet has focus enough even when you go on those non-crit streaks?

Last edited by Alidien : 05/24/07 at 4:59 AM.
#501SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Originally Posted by Alidien View Post

Osse: Are the 2 points you spend in Spirit Bond really worth it? Even though BD + GffT is a focus overload for the pet, wouldn't at least 1 point in BD ensure that your pet has focus enough even when you go on those non-crit streaks?
Actually I'm still not convinced that a wind serpent is not superior, because there is no focus overload on it. Getting your crit rate to about 35% in a raid or 10man as a BM is a base for great LB damage, and I wouldnt want to waste my points on spirit bond. I'd still even keep imp HM over efficiency as long as the mana burn can be countered with pots.

Having cobra reflexes now I'd even put the otherwise valid argument aside that other pets could get a better uptime on frenzy and FI. But that remains to be tested.

As for someone who said that pets are now immune to shadow bolt volleys on Mag, this really has to be because of avoidence only then.
Yesterday I could barely log in before the raid started and had no time for respeccing the pet. So it didnt die because of the fabulous mend pet, but it surely took damage from the bolts.
#502SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
Originally Posted by Alidien View Post
Osse: Are the 2 points you spend in Spirit Bond really worth it? Even though BD + GffT is a focus overload for the pet, wouldn't at least 1 point in BD ensure that your pet has focus enough even when you go on those non-crit streaks?
Of course there will be a few fights where I wont be dpsing for a few seconds and pet misses a few specials, but I'd say the 60 mana cost reduction and 50% chance to dispell crap on each tick is the sex.

At least when you have close to 40% crit raid buffed and potted. :P

Ps. I did over 110k healing on Void Reaver so go figure..
#503SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Alidien
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Of course there will be a few fights where I wont be dpsing for a few seconds and pet misses a few specials, but I'd say the 60 mana cost reduction and 50% chance to dispell crap on each tick is the sex.

At least when you have close to 40% crit raid buffed and potted. :P

Ps. I did over 110k healing on Void Reaver so go figure..
Well yeah I also see Imp Mend Pet as a very valuable talent right now. It was however the Spirit Bond points I was referring to. Earlier in this thread somewhere it was stated that it generates very little health over a 10 minute fight, so I really can't deem them viable for a raid build, when 2 points in BD will make sure that the pet can use it's specials more.

Of course I'm only at around 33% crit raid buffed now, depending on how many paladins we have available in the raid so I have a fair few upgrades left before I reach 40
#504SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
I rather have 15 hps over the 5-10 extra dps BD would give in those few fights where I shoot all the time to be honest. Morogrim for example, after the earthquake thingy you have what, 50 seconds to heal up till the next wave comes? 150 x 5 on each wave heals 750, then you put just one mend pet and there you have pet healed the health it lost from that earthquake. Actually, its now 50% less damage so.. Heh. :P

When I get 2 set tier 5 bonus I still wont drop spirit bond or imp mend pet if they stay like they are as the dps upgades just arent worth the stability increase those give. Rather do 1200 dps on Hydross than res pet twice and do 1000 dps if you see my point.
#505SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Am I the only one having difficulties with KC? I literally have just stopped macroing it to shots because of the delay. Even with stop casting it doesn't cast the second spell without a second keystroke; in this case, I might as well just bind KC to a completely different key and wedge it into gaps before/after other shots (which I'm doing now).

Also, does KC seem to have low damage to anyone else? On a typical mob it hits for 2-300 and crits for 5-600. I have cobra reflexes, but I didn't anticipate this level of drop in my KC damage (prior to the patch it was 3-500 and 5-700 crit). The upside is that mend pet is incredibly good now - my pet survived some pretty aoe intensive fights (maiden/aran) with a minimum of maintenance (i.e. don't let him get hit by Aran's huge aoe, but he can stay and dps through blizzard).
#506SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Alidien
Since KC is a spell cast by the hunter you cannot include it in a macro with another cast and cast both with a single keystroke. You either make a macro to cast KC if that is ready, if not cast another spell. Or make a spam macro like the one Osse has listed here earlier which is basically spam that button until your left hand falls off kind of a macro.

I had a 1350 KC crit on the priest trash mobs in Gruul's yesterday, with cobra reflexes. On Gruul they were around 600-800 iirc.
#507SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Daenerys
Originally Posted by Alidien View Post
Used Osses macro in Karazhan after we did Gruul yesterday. Seemed to work as intended, however my left hand hurts after spamming a single button for 2 hours I found it a bit hard to use the macro on trashmobs, at least in Kara where they die in a couple of seconds anyway. Let's see how it works out in SSC tonight.

On Gruul I tried using normal timing, and it surely takes some training to work KC in there without interrupting the rest of the shot rotation. On a sidenote we had 2 BM hunters on the top of damage meters when Gruul was dead. Guess the other hunters in the guild were finally convinced when I did 100k more damage then them on Hydross the other night.

Osse: Are the 2 points you spend in Spirit Bond really worth it? Even though BD + GffT is a focus overload for the pet, wouldn't at least 1 point in BD ensure that your pet has focus enough even when you go on those non-crit streaks?
If you're having issues with your fingers from spamming, consider moving your macro to be bound to the mouse scroll wheel. I did this a month or two ago and it's made spamming much easier on my hands.

First raid in 2.1 for me was Hydross and Mag last night. I was doing incredible damage with BM spec using a cast sequence macro for Steady/Auto and then adding a line to that for /cast Kill Command. Spammed it as usual and KC seemed to be going off just fine, without any noticably large delay to Auto. And frankly, I wasn't worried about a small delay to Auto, since I was getting some rather large DPS from KC anyway. I just don't see enough of a benefit to threading shots manually, especially as a raid leader when I have a lot of other things to worry about.

I was throwing in Multi on a fairly regular basis, especially on Hydross when their were adds up (ever cooldown in those situations). I've found Arcane as BM to be pretty worthless overall.

Wish I had WWS, but as all of us officers were fiddling with mods early on in the raid (took me forever to get all mine working properly again), we all forgot to turn /combatlog back on after initially setting it. By SWStats I was 2nd on Mag, first on all trash, and only behind the SoC-spamming 'locks on Hydross.

As for my pet, survivability is up a ton. And the new Mend is a god-send. I am really loving 2.1 as a Hunter, especially as BM. Don't think I'll be going back to MM for a looooong time.
#508SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
 frmorrison
For people serious about pet dps, if you get cobra reflexes saves you a point in Frenzy (you only need 4/5 with such a fast attack speed).

Pets have a 8.6% miss rate on special attacks + 5% dodge on bosses, so adding Animal Handler for 4% to hit is a good idea if you are serious about BM to maintain uptime on FI and Frenzy.

I love the new mend pet spell it really fixes a lot of pet issues, and 2/2 imp Mend Pet makes it even better. I am spoiled with a pet HoT, it would be nice to see Health Funnel changed to be as awesome, currently it is a channeled spell.

I am happy that the new MP + Cobra Reflexes + Avoidance appears to have made BM into the top raiding build.

Last edited by frmorrison : 05/24/07 at 11:55 AM.
#509SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Lactose
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Pets have a 8.6% miss rate + 5% dodge on bosses, so adding Animal Handler for 4% to hit is a good idea if you are serious about BM to maintain uptime on FI and Frenzy.
I thought it was proved that white attacks work on a 1-roll system, making additional +hit% not make you crit more often (unless you were crit capped). Without really checking, I'd take a guess at a BM Hunter's pet has a large majority of attacks being white, resulting in a low FI / Frenzy uptime boost due to +hit% affecting its yellow attacks.
Sorry if this was a confusing sentence, my brain feels imploded.
#510SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
For people serious about pet dps, if you get cobra reflexes (I think only cats, ravangers, and boars can use it)
Luckily every pet can get it. You shocked me there for a second since I had no time to respec my pet yet.
#511SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 frmorrison
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I thought it was proved that white attacks work on a 1-roll system, making additional +hit% not make you crit more often (unless you were crit capped). Without really checking, I'd take a guess at a BM Hunter's pet has a large majority of attacks being white, resulting in a low FI / Frenzy uptime boost due to +hit% affecting its yellow attacks.
Sorry if this was a confusing sentence, my brain feels imploded.
White attacks are on a 1-hit system, so would have around a 5.6 miss rate on autoattack. However, the specials like Bite and Gore do have a larger miss rate of 8.6% which I was referring to.

BM pet's major dps source is white (about 50%), but I am pretty sure more hit doesn't replace crit on the table, it replaces misses, so it will increase FI/Frenzy uptime.
#512SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Fagrim
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
White attacks are on a 1-hit system, so would have around a 5.6 miss rate on autoattack. However, the specials like Bite and Gore do have a larger miss rate of 8.6% which I was referring to.

BM pet's major dps source is white (about 50%), but I am pretty sure more hit doesn't replace crit on the table, it replaces misses, so it will increase FI/Frenzy uptime.
If it is a 1-table system and you increase to hit (and hence swap misses with hits) you will have the exact same amount of crits over a specific duration as before (I believe that is what Lactose was referring to) - right? And consequently the same amount of FI/frenzy.
#513SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Bikiniwax
So last night on Gruul, I was using this spam macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

It seemed to work ok except for the fact that when I re-called my pet back to me, it would still cast KC even though my pet was not attacking the boss. I am not 100% sure, but I think the mana for KC was being used as well.

To fix this bug, would this change work?

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


Any comments?

EDIT: lots of bugs like:

1. Misdirection not working properly (only first 2 shots generate tank aggro, 3rd shot brings all aggro back to hunter)
2. Pets loosing all buffs when you Call pet after you died but pet never died
3. Imp. Pet Mend bug - drinking/eating is cancelled during the 15 sec HOT on your pet

Last edited by Bikiniwax : 05/24/07 at 12:10 PM.
#514SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Rexpop
This was my solution to fitting Kill Command into my rotation. I typically use:

[Steady Shot, Auto Shot], [Steady Shot, Auto Shot], [Arcane Shot, Auto Shot]

as a rotation with the either the Steelhawk Crossbow (2.0 speed with SS) or Wraithtide Longbow (2.2 with SS). On the Arcane Shot segment I have 1 second window where the GCD is up and I can't do anything else so this seemed to be the best place to fit in the Kill Command.

So my rotation is now:

[Steady Shot, Auto Shot], [Steady Shot, Auto Shot], [Arcane Shot, Kill Command, Auto Shot]

with the kill command slotted into the 1 second GCD window caused by Arcane Shot. If any of the shots in the rotation crits then Kill Command will be up available for use at exactly the right point in the rotation, and the 5 second cooldown on Kill Command means I can't trigger it earlier. My Kill Command macro is wired to a mouse button, so I press it after I see Arcane Shot get fired from my rotation macro if I see a Kill Command proc and I can usually slot it in without delaying the Auto Shot if I'm paying attention. I pretty much gave up trying to macro this into the rotation as none of the solutions worked effectively without messing with my rotation.

It's definitely easier to do this with the Wraithtide than the Steelhawk, so it should be just right when Prince finally drops a Sunfury for me.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Rexpop : 05/24/07 at 2:41 PM.
#515SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Did anyone test and can confirm that Relentless Earthstorm Diamond indeed doesn't work on ranged attacks?
#516SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692AugustusTirion
Originally Posted by Alidien View Post
Used Osses macro in Karazhan after we did Gruul yesterday. Seemed to work as intended, however my left hand hurts after spamming a single button for 2 hours I found it a bit hard to use the macro on trashmobs, at least in Kara where they die in a couple of seconds anyway. Let's see how it works out in SSC tonight.
If you have a gaming keyboard (G14 and Saitek come to mind), I recommend programming a repeating keypress macro.

With my Saitek, I've got a key on my pad that, for as long as I hold the button down, will press my 3 key (my auto/steady castsequence) every .1sec.
IIrc, there's also an option to press once to start the spam and press again to stop it.
Hooray for no carpal tunnel
#517SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Ture
Did anyone test and can confirm that Relentless Earthstorm Diamond indeed doesn't work on ranged attacks?
Tested, it doesn't work. At first I tought it did, but I forgot about the slaying talents and I was shooting to some boars :p

When I noticed that I went off to kill some elementals, and arcane was doing just the normal damage after mortal shots (575 normal hit, 1322 on a crit). A shame, hope they fix it at some point.
#518SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Tazrach
Originally Posted by AugustusTirion View Post
If you have a gaming keyboard (G14 and Saitek come to mind), I recommend programming a repeating keypress macro.

With my Saitek, I've got a key on my pad that, for as long as I hold the button down, will press my 3 key (my auto/steady castsequence) every .1sec.
IIrc, there's also an option to press once to start the spam and press again to stop it.
Hooray for no carpal tunnel
Ok i have a g15 never figured out how to do anything like that. would you mind pming me or pointing me to a guide?

Taz
#519SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Dryw
Originally Posted by Jide View Post
If they're supposed to be in the netherwing mines I can't atleast find any. It's all just flayers, bursters, slimes and a few humanoids.

Ah, can see one now. Sadly they can not be timed still
Originally Posted by Furo View Post
The 70 Ravagers in SMV are not tamable.
Better start leveling the 63.
just went there (just to confirm )
quite tricky to get there actually

#520SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Redpath
Nevermind someone beat me to it.
#521SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by Ture View Post
Tested, it doesn't work. At first I tought it did, but I forgot about the slaying talents and I was shooting to some boars :p

When I noticed that I went off to kill some elementals, and arcane was doing just the normal damage after mortal shots (575 normal hit, 1322 on a crit). A shame, hope they fix it at some point.

Then I guess I'll go with the haste gem until they fix this.
#522SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Fagrim View Post
If it is a 1-table system and you increase to hit (and hence swap misses with hits) you will have the exact same amount of crits over a specific duration as before (I believe that is what Lactose was referring to) - right? And consequently the same amount of FI/frenzy.
I think you are correct.

Based on this Blue post on the European Blizz forums which I guess would apply to pets too: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....551513&sid =1


motive has shared some details on the calculations of hit and crit chances:

part 1

The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.

All crit rate adjusting abilities, items, and talents add the flat % to the base % crit rate. So if I have a 5% base crit rate and then use an item or talent that increases that crit rate (let's use Improved Backstab talent for example - +30% crit), my new crit with backstab is 35%.

Regarding how defense decreases the rate of critical strikes, each point of defense that a target has over the attacker, the attacker loses 0.04% chance to crit. So, for example, if a level 60 Rogue is attacking a level 60 Warrior who has 25 defense, the rogue's crit rate will be decreased by 1%.

part 2

+toHit items subtract from your miss%.

So, ignoring all defensive actions (Block/Parry/Dodge/etc..) if I have 20% crit chance, 20% miss chance, and 60% hit chance and I equip an item that gives me +5% toHit and +5% crit, my stats become 25% crit, 15% miss chance, 60% hit chance.

New hit chance = (Original hit%) + (toHit modifiers) - (crit modifiers)
60% + 5% - 5% = 60%

New crit chance = (Original crit%) + (crit modifiers)
20% + 5% = 25%

New miss chance - (Original miss%) - (toHit modifiers)
20% - 5% = 15%
So increasing To Hit reduces Misses, but does not increase Crit. I think I read that correctly.
#523SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692gimpynerd
I do believe it's been semi-discussed but I'll ask again. Does anyone have any solid math on whether or not it's more dps to get 4/5 frenzy and 2/2 animal handler or vice versa?
#524SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Cheeky
Originally Posted by gimpynerd View Post
I do believe it's been semi-discussed but I'll ask again. Does anyone have any solid math on whether or not it's more dps to get 4/5 frenzy and 2/2 animal handler or vice versa?
You can use the DPS spreadsheet (thread) and figure it out yourself based on the rest of your gear/talents. I show all my work so you can see why too. I don't remember the exact equations enough to know if it always comes down to a definitive one being better than the other. It may be influenced by other factors. (Such as your crit rate allowing more KC's to trigger more Frenzy, etc.)
#525SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Kash
Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I have to say that I am simply amazed of BM Hunters. The new features work really well for me.
For the first time we have a pvp and pve spec at the same time Nevertheless, I have some questions:

I'm not convinced of using macros, but I am aware of loosing dps while not spamming macros.

Bikiniwax, why are you not including multi shot in your macro?

a) Isn't it worth using multi instead of steady some times?

b) Cobra Reflexes for raids yes/no?

c) big differnnce between gore and claw?


Whats your opinion on that?

Thx, Kash

Last edited by Kash : 05/25/07 at 12:22 AM.
#526SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Equalizer
A little off topic considering it's a non-raiding question. But I have a hard time giving up Scatter Shot due to those times when I run heroics. Especially stuff like shattered halls.

How do you guys tend to deal with not having it? Does giving up TBW really hurt DPS?
#527SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Goreshot
You learn to live without it. For one, you do have Intimidation. It's less consistent, but it's not like you aren't getting something in exchange. In heroics, good trapping is more about planning than anything else anyway. Scatter Shot is nice to have as a backup, but it's by no means necessary. In fact, not having Scatter might help you learn how to plan your trapping better and allow you to do DPS (since most hunters I've seen who rely on Scatter for trapping end up spending an inordinate amount of time "working" their trap target, instead of just planning traps accordingly and continuing to DPS the focus fire target). A lot of hunters rely on Scatter way too much, and it ends up being a crutch rather than a tool.

TBW is a nice DPS upgrade and works well in PvP/instances, but you could conceivably trade it for Scatter Shot if you really, really cared.
#528SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Goreshot
Originally Posted by Kash View Post
Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right thread, but I have to say that I am simply amazed of BM Hunters. The new features work really well for me.
For the first time we have a pvp and pve spec at the same time Nevertheless, I have some questions:

I'm not convinced of using macros, but I am aware of loosing dps while not spamming macros.

Bikiniwax, why are you not including multi shot in your macro?

a) Isn't it worth using multi instead of steady some times?

b) Cobra Reflexes for raids yes/no?

c) big differnnce between gore and claw?


Whats your opinion on that?

Thx, Kash
a) Multi-Shot costs significantly more mana, and Steady Shot scales much better. Eventually you reach point where Steady does nearly as much (or more) damage than Multi, at a reduced mana cost. This is especially true for BM hunters, who do not have access to Barrage and Improved Barrage to push Multi-Shot's damage potential higher. Essentially the only times you will spam Multi-Shot are when there are actually multiple targets, or for shot rotation purposes (Multi+KC > Steady+KC+Delayed Auto). Or if you don't care about mana.

b) Yes. I can think of no conceivable reason to ever NOT give your pet Cobra Reflexes. It's a ~12% white damage DPS upgrade, along with a very nice attack speed bonus. The white DPS increase more than makes up for the decrease in Kill Command damage, especially since it will end up scaling better (as you and your pet gain more RAP/AP, Cobra Reflexes will scale with the 12% multiplier, while KC remains at a static Damage+127). Plus, people are still having trouble spamming KC consistently, so even under the best of circumstances and the increased KC damage tradeoff is theoretically better, in practice it probably never will be.

c) Not really. More like moderately-appreciable difference between Gore+Ravagers and Claw+WhateverElse.
#529SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Kash
Thanks a lot for informing me about cobra reflexes.

(Multi+KC > Steady+KC+Delayed Auto)
Yes, I also noticed the Auto-Shot delay after casting KC. So I'm not sure what the best weapon speed would be for bm hutner. If your weapon is slow enough, you don't need to consider the delay, I suppose....
I currently use sunfury which seems to be a bit to fast, especially when haste- buffs are up

Wondering if I should use my Arena Xbow. I'm going to test it...
#530SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Equalizer
Originally Posted by Goreshot View Post
You learn to live without it. For one, you do have Intimidation. It's less consistent, but it's not like you aren't getting something in exchange. In heroics, good trapping is more about planning than anything else anyway. Scatter Shot is nice to have as a backup, but it's by no means necessary. In fact, not having Scatter might help you learn how to plan your trapping better and allow you to do DPS (since most hunters I've seen who rely on Scatter for trapping end up spending an inordinate amount of time "working" their trap target, instead of just planning traps accordingly and continuing to DPS the focus fire target). A lot of hunters rely on Scatter way too much, and it ends up being a crutch rather than a tool.

TBW is a nice DPS upgrade and works well in PvP/instances, but you could conceivably trade it for Scatter Shot if you really, really cared.
I can deal without it. But there have been times where just, shit happens. And scatter saves it.

And I can't tell whether 10% damage for 18 seconds every 2 minutes is worth annoying wipes that I could've saved otherwise.
#531SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Here comes the bomb.

Went to Blasted Lands, this time in 2.1 patch and here is the result with this macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=w2of2n22ysd5g&a=0

~75ms so could be better. Forgot growl on for the first 3 minutes so lost a bit of dps there and kept renewing hunters mark a bit too often I think. :p

Steady shot crit is a bit low considering I have 26.77% crit with this gear, then you add 3.2% because of the level difference.

Mana use with constant KC rotation really requires fel mana pots in normal raid situation if you dont have a shadowpriest and judgements. I suppose on a normal farm status boss you only use that rotation for the first time in hunter history to 'nuke'. :p

Pet got cobra reflexes, but average KC hit and crit is still pretty nice, 373 hit and 760 crit.

We have nukes peoples!11

Any ideas for good timer mod?

Ps. got new build, switched from BD to imp mend pet and from imp HM to efficiency.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=mtbM0ggowuVoVVbRV


Anyone else been in Blasted Lands post patch?
Yes I did test against BL in PTR for 2 months, did reach 1300 dps on BM without sunders and 1500 dps with sunders. And that was unbuffed. But pet does around 360 dps against Blasted Lands, I don't know how much a fully buffed pet will do against end game boss with dodges/parries/misses.
#532SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692beathoven
Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed here with very valuable and hard facts.

I've been pondering going Beast Master for quite some time now, and when i heard about the changes in 2.1 i was convinced to give it a shot.

I've respecced to a "typical" BM build yesterday evening for our first night on Hydross (and a kill, yay!) as well as a quick clear of Gruul's lair afterwards.

In the end i was incredibly impressed with the pet survivability now and the combined DPS of me and my pet. I was 2nd on Hydross, 1st on Maulgar and Gruul. It needed quite a bit of micro management at Gruul and Hydross and my pet hardly got any heals, but i managed to do quite well with sending it in and out and mending it every now and then myself.

Next step is getting a level 63 Ravager leveling him up (as it' is supposedly the best PvE dps pet,right?).

So again, big thanks to everyone here again.

Read ya, Phil
#533SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Norwest
Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
A little off topic considering it's a non-raiding question. But I have a hard time giving up Scatter Shot due to those times when I run heroics. Especially stuff like shattered halls.

How do you guys tend to deal with not having it? Does giving up TBW really hurt DPS?
One thing that has helped me is, I bring in a boar for heroics. It costs me DPS, but the charge is invaluable for trapping and getting away when things go south. It's definitely worth sacrificing a bit of DPS for.
#534SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Daenerys
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
One thing that has helped me is, I bring in a boar for heroics. It costs me DPS, but the charge is invaluable for trapping and getting away when things go south. It's definitely worth sacrificing a bit of DPS for.
Agreed, except on those rare occassions when the Boar will charge a trapped mob even though you directed him to attack the mob currently being killed. Or does that only happen to me? Annoying, to say the least, but fortunately rare.
#535SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692jarlelin
I've been reading these forums for a long time, but I have more or less allways found what I was looking for posted by someone else so I have never seen the need to register. Now I'm here, so hi everyone.

My problem is pertaining the new Kill Command. No matter how i do it, I can not seem to make a macro that will fire off my KC on my steady shot command before firing the steady shot itself.
I have allways found macos to be sort of the poor mans resort, but with the new KC and a 2.1 attack speed non-hasted I see that I can no longer keep a perfect shot cycle in complex raid situations.

Since I do not have a lot, or rather none at all, experience with macros I was hoping someone here could help me. I have tried several of the macros posted here, but no matter what I try, I can not seem to get it to do what I want it to.

I'm currently using:
/cast [target=pettarget, pet] Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast steady shot
/cast auto shot
Without dwelling too long on the fact that stopcasting messes up my bigtrouble-autoshot-castbar, no matter how I try to fix it, this macro can not seem to fire off steady shot on the same keyclick as a kill command is executed. I was under the impression that /stopcasting would let me send another instant command after the first one as long as it does not use the gcd. Can anyone here help me with what I might be doing wrong?

I did manage to make a macro to make my bloodlust brooch fire off in a macro with steady shot, but I have not yet tested properly with rapid fire, which seems to share the same characteristics as the KC, simply because of the problem with the cooldown period.
#536SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Couple more post-patch impressions:

1) I don't even bother casting arcane or multi anymore during stand and deliver dpsing (unless I'm in a situation where I can't cast anything else (i.e. moving)).

2) I don't have a combat log parse, but on our Gruul kill last night I picked up 80-100k damage over our previous kills. We were slow in dps (lost tons of melee to cave-in) so I think that inflated the number, but adding 50-60k is not unrealistic. That's a 20-25% improvement (went from 240-260k to 347k last night).

3) Keeping your pet alive is fairly trivial, it's mostly about managing the GCD to fit a Mend Pet into your rotation. Likewise, keeping HM up is trivial; it's mostly about managing the GCD.

4) Once you get KC macro'd (ugh) it's a substantial dps boost - with KC and cobra reflexes I had FI up more or less constantly.

Sorry to post impressions without much math to back it up; I'll see if someone got a combat log parse from Gruul to give you more info. Anyway, I'm actually pleased because the patch exceeded my expectations.
#537SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Originally Posted by jarlelin View Post
I've been reading these forums for a long time, but I have more or less allways found what I was looking for posted by someone else so I have never seen the need to register. Now I'm here, so hi everyone.

My problem is pertaining the new Kill Command. No matter how i do it, I can not seem to make a macro that will fire off my KC on my steady shot command before firing the steady shot itself.
I have allways found macos to be sort of the poor mans resort, but with the new KC and a 2.1 attack speed non-hasted I see that I can no longer keep a perfect shot cycle in complex raid situations.

Since I do not have a lot, or rather none at all, experience with macros I was hoping someone here could help me. I have tried several of the macros posted here, but no matter what I try, I can not seem to get it to do what I want it to.

I'm currently using:
/cast [target=pettarget, pet] Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast steady shot
/cast auto shot
Without dwelling too long on the fact that stopcasting messes up my bigtrouble-autoshot-castbar, no matter how I try to fix it, this macro can not seem to fire off steady shot on the same keyclick as a kill command is executed. I was under the impression that /stopcasting would let me send another instant command after the first one as long as it does not use the gcd. Can anyone here help me with what I might be doing wrong?

I did manage to make a macro to make my bloodlust brooch fire off in a macro with steady shot, but I have not yet tested properly with rapid fire, which seems to share the same characteristics as the KC, simply because of the problem with the cooldown period.
You should use a sequence like the ones postet by Osse or Glau:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

Nontheless, while they do work, I dont seem to be able to squeeze a KC together with a steady between 2 autoshots without delaying auto in the slightest. Sometimes its 0.2 sec, sometimes 0.5 sec.

Osse seemed to be able to not delay auto everytime, but its hard to say since his log doesnt show when he was under the influence of quick shots or rapid fire.
#538SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Alidien
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
If you're having issues with your fingers from spamming, consider moving your macro to be bound to the mouse scroll wheel. I did this a month or two ago and it's made spamming much easier on my hands.
Thanks for this tip, should've thought of that one myself. Less strain on the left hand means better micromanagement for the pet
#539SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
You should use a sequence like the ones postet by Osse or Glau:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

Nontheless, while they do work, I dont seem to be able to squeeze a KC together with a steady between 2 autoshots without delaying auto in the slightest. Sometimes its 0.2 sec, sometimes 0.5 sec.

Osse seemed to be able to not delay auto everytime, but its hard to say since his log doesnt show when he was under the influence of quick shots or rapid fire.
I think KC macros are a bit bad since when the target is moving and the pet can't follow for any reason, the macro doesn't do anything due to Kill Command not being able to cast. Is there a workaround?

And Osse said he had 75ms in PTR, if you have higher latency, KC will delay things more ofc.
#540SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Try
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command
/cast sequence reset=2/target/combat Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I've started using this with my mousewheel and it works fine. Keep in mind that everytime it casts KC it WON'T cast anything else, so you have to hit it twice, but it does work. It works if your pet is dead/out of range, too. Credit goes to Glaurong, I based this on his macro for arcane shot in [Hunter] Beast Mastery Bible.
#541SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Cheeky
Originally Posted by Goreshot View Post
a) Multi-Shot costs significantly more mana, and Steady Shot scales much better. Eventually you reach point where Steady does nearly as much (or more) damage than Multi, at a reduced mana cost. This is especially true for BM hunters, who do not have access to Barrage and Improved Barrage to push Multi-Shot's damage potential higher. Essentially the only times you will spam Multi-Shot are when there are actually multiple targets, or for shot rotation purposes (Multi+KC > Steady+KC+Delayed Auto). Or if you don't care about mana.
Steady Shot scales at RAP*0.2, Multi-Shot scales at RAP*0.2. They scale the same. The only difference is that Steady Shot scales the damage from your weapon at DPS*2.8, where Multi uses an average shot. So for weapons slower than 2.8 Multi does more damage from weapon DPS, for weapons faster Steady does.

Steady adds +150 damage, max rank Multi is +205. Multi also gets your damage from Scopes, Ammo, and +damage enchants. Steady does not. Even for BM/Survival Hunters Multi Shot will do more single target damage than Steady Shot. Now, whether it is worth the extra mana is debatable.
#542SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692jarlelin
You should use a sequence like the ones postet by Osse or Glau:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

Nontheless, while they do work, I dont seem to be able to squeeze a KC together with a steady between 2 autoshots without delaying auto in the slightest. Sometimes its 0.2 sec, sometimes 0.5 sec.

Osse seemed to be able to not delay auto everytime, but its hard to say since his log doesnt show when he was under the influence of quick shots or rapid fire.
As I believe I stated, I have tried various macros posted here, but I can not seem to get them to work satisfactorily. In the example here the castsequence seems to have no different function than a normal /cast. The kill command fires if it is ready, but the "Another action is in progress"-mesage fires and the steady shot is not fired unless I hammer the button twice in quick succession. If I have to hit it twice anyway, then I'm more inclined to use a different button for KC when it is ready.

Doing it manually I am able to weave KC/SS within two auto shots fairly easily when no hastes are active, but this will severly lower my ability to pay attention to the rest of the raid. And being a raid leader, that can sometimes be a rather bad idea.

If anyone could quickly explain the main difference between using castsequence and cast in this situation I would be very much obliged.


I think KC macros are a bit bad since when the target is moving and the pet can't follow for any reason, the macro doesn't do anything due to Kill Command not being able to cast. Is there a workaround?
As far as I can understand using a stopcasting after KC will stop the cast anyway and should move on to the next command meaning that the shot after it will be fire even if the KC returns not being able to execute properly. But then again, I'm not able to get this to work to my satisfaction either, so I may be wrong.
#543SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post

Steady adds +150 damage, max rank Multi is +205. Multi also gets your damage from Scopes, Ammo, and +damage enchants. Steady does not. Even for BM/Survival Hunters Multi Shot will do more single target damage than Steady Shot. Now, whether it is worth the extra mana is debatable.
When you say Steady does not get the damage from scopes, you mean the +damage scopes and not the +28 crit scope, right?
#544SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Try
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command
/cast sequence reset=2/target/combat Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I've started using this with my mousewheel and it works fine. Keep in mind that everytime it casts KC it WON'T cast anything else, so you have to hit it twice, but it does work. It works if your pet is dead/out of range, too. Credit goes to Glaurong, I based this on his macro for arcane shot in [Hunter] Beast Mastery Bible.
If i read this correctly - this will not bother trying to cast KC if your pet is passive or dead?
#545SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692f1reburn
So, after the patch, is it still the consensus that BM spec is the best raiding spec when it comes to damage? This considering a gear profile of a guild that has only killed Magtheridon for the first time after the patch, not started SSC yet?

The reason I'm asking is because there's this hunter in my guild who is convinced that Marksmanship is still the way to go, that pets are still only a liability not worthy of keeping healed to stay alive.
#546SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Originally Posted by jarlelin View Post

If anyone could quickly explain the main difference between using castsequence and cast in this situation I would be very much obliged.

The point of a cast sequence is that you will never interrupt your autoshot by the steadyshot.
If you would use just 2 casts in the macro everytime you hit the button too fast, you would stop the autoshot.

But either way, you will have to press the button all the time. 2 shots with 1 button press does not work.
#547SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Cheeky
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
When you say Steady does not get the damage from scopes, you mean the +damage scopes and not the +28 crit scope, right?
Correct.
#548SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
If i read this correctly - this will not bother trying to cast KC if your pet is passive or dead?
I'm treading on precarious ground, because I'm not 100% positive this is true, but that has been my experience. If someone with more knowledge of the API can comment, that would be great.

Let me just say this: if I don't use target=pettarget and my pet is dead then I get an error that stops the macro from progressing (preventing me from shooting steady, etc). I don't know if the same thing will happen while my pet is passive (presumably what it's doing is looking at the pet's target; if there is none, it doesn't try to cast).
#549SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by jarlelin View Post
As I believe I stated, I have tried various macros posted here, but I can not seem to get them to work satisfactorily. In the example here the castsequence seems to have no different function than a normal /cast. The kill command fires if it is ready, but the "Another action is in progress"-mesage fires and the steady shot is not fired unless I hammer the button twice in quick succession. If I have to hit it twice anyway, then I'm more inclined to use a different button for KC when it is ready.
Sorry to double post, but I wanted to address this. I was having the same issue, and you're 100% correct. If you use a macro and it casts KC, it WON'T cast steady/whatever. It will say another action is in progress. However, the best was around this is to use the macro and press the button multiple times to get both a KC and a steady/whatever. I recommend you bind it to your mouse wheel (it's much easier to scroll the wheel and get several 'keystrokes' from it than it is to press a button a few times quickly) and just scroll the mouse wheel to keep the steady/auto rotation rolling and throw in KC when it's available.

This might sound dumb (spam mouse wheel? no thanks!), but it's actually kind of tricky to keep your shots going while managing cooldowns, HM, and mend pet. GCD management becomes more important when you're doing this.
#550SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
If i read this correctly - this will not bother trying to cast KC if your pet is passive or dead?
What is the difference between the lines below?

yours: /cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command
mine: /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

I know that if my pet is in passive standing beside me when KC procs, it won't cast KC and waste mana. If you remove the exists, when KC procs your pet will make the KC sound and I believe will still use mana even though it is not attacking anything.

However, I am not 100% sure what my line does if my pet is dead or not summoned. I assume that it still won't cast KC because the pet's terget still does not exist? Will have to test this.
#551SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692jarlelin
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Sorry to double post, but I wanted to address this. I was having the same issue, and you're 100% correct. If you use a macro and it casts KC, it WON'T cast steady/whatever. It will say another action is in progress. However, the best was around this is to use the macro and press the button multiple times to get both a KC and a steady/whatever. I recommend you bind it to your mouse wheel (it's much easier to scroll the wheel and get several 'keystrokes' from it than it is to press a button a few times quickly) and just scroll the mouse wheel to keep the steady/auto rotation rolling and throw in KC when it's available.

This might sound dumb (spam mouse wheel? no thanks!), but it's actually kind of tricky to keep your shots going while managing cooldowns, HM, and mend pet. GCD management becomes more important when you're doing this.
I must really thank you for clearing this up for me once and for all. It was satisfying to hear that it wasn't just me messing up.

However if there is no way to get the KC to trigger and the steady shot to go off on the same single button then I do not believe I will be using a macro. It sort of defeats the game for me to be spamming my mousewheel or any other button for that matter and let the game decide what spells to cast for me. Maye I will change my mind in the future, but for now I will just practice my "hit KC as auto fires and follow up with steady asap"-skills.
#552SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Female Tauren
Hi all,
For someone with rather high latency (400-700ms), what would be the best macro for KC?
I'm thinking it'd be better to macro it with arcane and multi rather than steady:

/cast arcane shot
/cast kill command

Just hit macro twice when KC lights up.

What do you think?
#553SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
That seems like a reasonable approach - it should be easier to fit an arcane or multi + KC between autos if you're concerned about latency issues. I'd suggest fancy-ing up your macro, however, to dodge error messages and issues when your pet is dead. There are a number of posts regarding ways to do this, I'm not going to rehash them all. Check the previous 10-15 posts for more info.
#554SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sienna
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Sorry to double post, but I wanted to address this. I was having the same issue, and you're 100% correct. If you use a macro and it casts KC, it WON'T cast steady/whatever. It will say another action is in progress. However, the best was around this is to use the macro and press the button multiple times to get both a KC and a steady/whatever. I recommend you bind it to your mouse wheel (it's much easier to scroll the wheel and get several 'keystrokes' from it than it is to press a button a few times quickly) and just scroll the mouse wheel to keep the steady/auto rotation rolling and throw in KC when it's available.

This might sound dumb (spam mouse wheel? no thanks!), but it's actually kind of tricky to keep your shots going while managing cooldowns, HM, and mend pet. GCD management becomes more important when you're doing this.
I agree with that. I've been using mouse wheel for castsequence macro since TBC release and it's really practical.
#555SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Daenerys
Originally Posted by jarlelin View Post
I must really thank you for clearing this up for me once and for all. It was satisfying to hear that it wasn't just me messing up.

However if there is no way to get the KC to trigger and the steady shot to go off on the same single button then I do not believe I will be using a macro. It sort of defeats the game for me to be spamming my mousewheel or any other button for that matter and let the game decide what spells to cast for me. Maye I will change my mind in the future, but for now I will just practice my "hit KC as auto fires and follow up with steady asap"-skills.
The problem with trying to get KC in before the Steady is that you lose out on the benefit of doing a manual rotation, which is that you can start Steady prior to the Auto firing, all depending on your lag. This buys a lot of time after the Steady to sneak in another special for MM/SV Hunters (still not enough time for 2 specials as BM in my experience).

If you're going with a manual rotation, I would hit Steady prior to Auto going off and then get KC and Arcane/Multi in as quickly as you can prior to the next Auto. Though I wonder, does KC interfere with Arcane casting at all? If you use /cast KC and /cast Arcane in the same macro, will they both go off at the same time since there is no GCD associated with KC?

Hi all,
For someone with rather high latency (400-700ms), what would be the best macro for KC?
I'm thinking it'd be better to macro it with arcane and multi rather than steady:

/cast arcane shot
/cast kill command

Just hit macro twice when KC lights up.

What do you think?
If you do:

/cast kill command
/cast arcane shot

Won't they both go off with one press?
#556SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692AugustusTirion
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
If you do:

/cast kill command
/cast arcane shot

Won't they both go off with one press?
No.
They're both player cast spells and we're only allowed 1 spellcast per keypress.

/cast lightningbreath
/cast arcane shot
works because LB is cast by the pet.
#557SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Glaurong
Some macro information:

Regarding Kill Command

/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command

That line does nothing if your pet is dead, casts KC if your pet is active. I didn't experiment with [target=pettarget, exsts] but if you are worried about burning mana when your pet isn't in combat you can combine it all together

/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

Regarding two spells per button cast

You can cast 2 spells per button, as long as only one spell in the macro triggers the global cooldown. So the following macro will work.

/cast Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast Arcane Shot

However any use of /stopcasting turns off autoshot. This means you never want to use /stopcasting unless you can guarantee it is immediately after an auto shot fires. Although even in this case you run the risk of delaying your next auto.

Regarding how silly you feel rubbing your mouse's cli.....wheel.

Unless they give us better tools to manage our abilities or fundamentally change steady shot this is really the optimal way to go right now. You might feel silly or like you are cheating but in a stand and deliver fight we break down to pressing a button once every 2 seconds, and pressing another whenever it lights up. I can get a programmable game pad or keyboard to do this for me, I feel a bit like an old school EQ ranger.
#558SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692jarlelin
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
The problem with trying to get KC in before the Steady is that you lose out on the benefit of doing a manual rotation, which is that you can start Steady prior to the Auto firing, all depending on your lag. This buys a lot of time after the Steady to sneak in another special for MM/SV Hunters (still not enough time for 2 specials as BM in my experience).

If you're going with a manual rotation, I would hit Steady prior to Auto going off and then get KC and Arcane/Multi in as quickly as you can prior to the next Auto. Though I wonder, does KC interfere with Arcane casting at all? If you use /cast KC and /cast Arcane in the same macro, will they both go off at the same time since there is no GCD associated with KC?
With the 2.1 auto shot speed of the BM hunter it is not really possible to get a special(non-KC) off after a SS between two autos. This would simply mean that you would not have the chance to do a SS after the coming auto shot because of gcd.

And I can not seem to see the difference between doing KC before or after the SS. As you say you can estimate your latency and hit SS before the auto actually fires and have it start casting the instant the auto is done serverside. (This is of course dangerous because it can hit too early, and you lose your auto, but thats what being a hunter is all about.) Then you nail the KC after the SS, at 1.5 seconds plus latency after the SS started, and then your "cast" of the auto will start at approximately 1.6 and finish when it is supposed to at 2.1. But you can as easily press the KC button 0.075 seconds before auto finishes and have it hit the moment auto is done and then start SS 2*latency(=2*0.075) seconds later and finish at ~1.65 seconds.

I don't really see the difference between doing KC after SS or wise versa. Only, because I was hoping to get both actions off of the same key stroke, I wanted to do it KC first and SS after.


The problem is of course that repeating this process every two seconds with a precision of less than a 10th off a second is pretty damn hard and was why I was hoping to get this done with a macro automating the KC in the same key press as the SS.

It would seem that the only solution here is to use arcane shot and kill command together every time KC is ready and not use SS in the slot. The extra mana might be a problem, but what can you do...
#559SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Rexpop
Originally Posted by jarlelin View Post
It would seem that the only solution here is to use arcane shot and kill command together every time KC is ready and not use SS in the slot. The extra mana might be a problem, but what can you do...
That's the same conclusion that I came to and so use the rotation of:

Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Command (if available), Auto Shot

With a 2.0-2.2 speed attack if any of the shots crit then the 'Kill Command' will be up at the right point in the rotation for use without delaying the Auto Shot, and the 5 second cool-down of Kill Command ending just before the Arcane shot fires. With 5/5 in Efficiency this rotation burns about 400mp5, so with raid buffs, correct consumable use and 'Blessing of Wisdom' you can keep this up for around 4-5 minutes (longer if you have a Shadow Priest in the group).

It also fits in nicely with both the Al'ar trinket (you will be firing Arcane Shot every 6 seconds) and the 4/5 Beast Lord bonus so you can keep those buffs up nearly 100% of the time.
#560SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Its definately more dps to delay the autoshot by 0.3 or maybe even 0.5 secs to also squeeze the KC in after the steady instead of wasting a full steady shot just to have KC not clobber the autoshot.
#561SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Roaran
I was wondering if someone had any advice regarding post-patch wrathtide vs the steelhawk for a bm build. I have more +hit than I know what to do with and am trying to shed the excess to gain dps. The latest hunter spread sheet has the updated steelhawk but not the updated wrathtide in it (old stats and I'm spreadsheet retarded, don't know how to update the values). I realize there's a ~4 list dps difference between the two, but after quiver and ss it's a .14 speed difference. With the +hit on the steelhawk being 100% worthless (to me), wrathtide adding about 12 ap, weaving in kc in a macro, and considering normal server lag, does anyone have an opinion on the two head to head post patch under those circumstances in a bm build?
#562SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692NaPoLeoN II
As of 2.1 Steelhawk and Wrathtide both got buffed, yes.
But please note they didn't recieve same +dps increase, and that (according to WoWhead) there is now 4,4 dps difference between the two weapons (instead of rougly 1,5 dps before patch)

So I believe there is nothing wrong with the spreadsheet (havn't checked myself though)
#563SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Roaran
The damage values for the wrathtide bow (passive stats sayed the same) went up in 2.1, but the spreadsheet still represents the old damage values. 151-281 before 2.1, 158-295 after. The 5-16 spreadsheet has the old 151-281 data for wrathtide. I guess my question was more along the lines of if I'm just doing a auto->steady rotation with kc macro'ed in before steady (based on macros in this thread), considering normal lag and a .14 speed difference, is there any reason to keep the xbow when the passive stats on the wrathtide are more beneficial or will that .14 sec eventually catch up (I know theoretically it will) and still cause the xbow to outperform?
#564SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

Thanks Glaurong. I'll try this macro tonight.
#565SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Did anyone test and can confirm that Relentless Earthstorm Diamond indeed doesn't work on ranged attacks?
No and yes.

Blue just posted that the 3% increased crit dmg is supposed to work on both melee and ranged. However, it is currently bugged and not working on ranged attacks. Blizz is looking into it.

Keep in mind that this is +12 AGI and 3% increased Crit damage, not a 3% increase in Crit.

Not sure now which is the better metagem, this one of the haste gem (+240 haste for 6 sec).
#566SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Osse
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
No and yes.

Blue just posted that the 3% increased crit dmg is supposed to work on both melee and ranged. However, it is currently bugged and not working on ranged attacks. Blizz is looking into it.

Keep in mind that this is +12 AGI and 3% increased Crit damage, not a 3% increase in Crit.

Not sure now which is the better metagem, this one of the haste gem (+240 haste for 6 sec).
Link?

I saw a blue in US forums saying that it works on ranged but not with arcane shot.
#567SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Snoyes
Hello, Im new to raiding with BM spec but i tried it yesterday in karazhan. Killed Prince,nightbane and illhoof. At prince i was at 3 place on damage meters same on nightbane and fourth at illhoof. I used Osse´s macro but after reading some more people says that using that macro will delay auto shot.

So my question is, how do i fit in my KC in my auto/steady rotation, without delaying autoshot ?
#568SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Lactose
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Link?

I saw a blue in US forums saying that it works on ranged but not with arcane shot.
The increased critical damage bonus granted by the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond does, indeed, affect ranged attacks -- e.g. Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot -- but currently there is an issue by which it is not increasing the critical damage of Arcane Shot. This is currently under investigation, however, and should be resolved in an upcoming patch if present internal testing bears out. My apologies for the confusion.
Pavonum, 05/26/2007, 12:54:51 AM UTC - http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=106671433
#569SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
My bad. It was just Arcane Shot that was bugged at the moment.
#570SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Female Tauren
I gave up on trying to macro KC with other shots. I do everything manually now, after some practice it's actually not too bad.

Also, I saw someone mention making equipe macros to save ammo, here's mine:

/equipe light arrow
/cast arcane shot
/equipe warden's arrow

Works as intended except for the constant equip sound, which is a pain when your raid is 4 hours. I haven't noticed it yet, but will this macro delay my shot if my latency is high?

Lastly, has anyone tried the consortium gun as BM? Wouldn't it be a great weapon for ppl with good connection?
#571SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Glaurong
Short anwer, no.

Slightly longer answer. it takes you under 2.0 second auto shot, and you run into problems syncing auto, global cool, steady. Bad mojo.
#572SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Female Tauren
Consortium blaster speed after quiver and ss is 1.74
Steady speed is 1.09 for BM, add 0.5 auto cast time = 1.59

Wouldn't it work with an ultra low latency and careful timing?
#573SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Sapa
Kill Command question:

What would be miss rate against boss (73) by lvl70 pet.
a. with Animal Handler?
b. without?
Does AH help at all?

WWS:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=240,562&a=2

Cat vs Morgrim - Has Animal Handler 2/2. (41/20/0)
Melee 13,2% miss
Claw 10,9% miss
KC 15,3% miss !!!

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...s=240,562&a=21
Ravager vs Morgrim - Same talents / same fight
Melee 14,4%
Gore 7,4
KC 14,2

Edit: Numbers, including dodges. Didn't read data correctly!

Last edited by Sapa : 05/30/07 at 7:55 AM.
#574SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
banaj
If you watch the details in wws you can see that a lot of the misses are dodges, not actually misses from the pet.
The actual misses from your pet (as in missing not dodging) is only 4% on auto-attacks.
I noticed the same thing as you did and then i started checking what actually happened and a lot of the misses are under parry/dodge in 5mans etc (im just an alt hunter).

What i was wondering the other day for an optimal auto-steady+kc rotation, would 3.0 speed be the greatest choice?
Im using a 2.8 bow now and after modifiers it's 2.01 and i delay my autoshot quite some times for a kc.
Was also thinking if you had like a 2.8 bow vs a 3.0 how much more dps would the 2.8 need to defeat the perfect rotations of a 3.0?

Last edited by banaj : 05/29/07 at 5:01 AM.
#575SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Breakerone
wind serpent and KC

I seem to be having a new problem here. I am still using my good old wind serpent since I think it was an optimal focus dump, but this weekend was my first raid after the patch and I am having some serious problems now.

I dont know if it has something to do with bosses or mobs in general being less immune against certain immobilizing effects, but my wind serpent backs out of melee all the time to just throw LB's.
Now I cant really swear if it has been like this before, but I notice it a lot now, since backing up to LB range gets the pet out of Kill Command range.
I was using the macro Glau supplied with all the "exist" "pet" "in range" and so on parameters, and I had the impression (and my log supports it) that the constant leaving of the melee range of my pet hindered the castsequence because KC had a problem working.

Sometimes my next autoshot got delayed by 5 seconds, so there must be something wrong, I was using this:


/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

after that lead to serious delays I removed everything from the kill command line to just
/cast Kill Command

but that didnt seem to help either, so I had to use my regular cast sequence and Kill Command separately, so Kill Command still didnt work a lot of times because of range problems, but it didnt delay anything else.

But to be absolutely honest, its too much for me to mash one button like crazy, watch the cooldowns of 2 trinkets, my racial, BW, war drums, rapid fire, HM cooldown AND that kill command every 5 seconds on top of having a scared look at the KTM all the time which doesnt seem to work 100% accurate since the patch. (pulled aggro again just 3 shots after an unresisted FD, while being the lowest on the list then)
Let alone watch the fight itself if its something complicated.

So can someone tell me if I messed something up in my macro?

Cause if I didnt I dont see another choice but letting the wind serpent go for a pure melee pet and hope to have no problems with the macro anymore.

Last edited by Breakerone : 05/29/07 at 6:10 AM.
#576SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Redpath
Lately I've been macroing Lightning Breath with Steady Shot in raids (and turning off auto-cast) and it has cut down on a lot of the problems I was having with erratic WS behavior. Even on the initial pull, when my WS goes in (w/o auto-cast) he keeps moving while casting LB, while with auto-cast on he would stop in place and cast LB until his focus was dry (and then you get those annoying crit strings where the stupid thing just sits there even longer). It seems to me that most of the LB problems are related to auto-cast and not the spell itself.

Even then though I sometimes feel like I'm wasting focus on crit strings. If the level 70 ravagers ever become tamable I'd probably just give up on WS in raids haha - or maybe I'll try a cat.
#577SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
Zurgat
More crit the better i guess, but at some point your pet wont be able to keep up with the energy generation.
1.5 sec global cooldown on his claw / gore.
the trick is finding the sweet spot.
or, perhaps at that point a pet with lightning breath will be better to use?


http://petopia.brashendeavors.net/
Cats, raptors and ravagers are the pets with +10% damage. you "need" claw or gore. else your pet wont be able to empty his energy bar.
cats are the ones with highest health in that group. Gore has more chance of spike damage.


Damage vs energy usage:
Gore : http://www.thottbot.net/s35298 ( 73,5 damage per 25 energy )
Claw : http://www.thottbot.net/s27049 ( 65 damage per 25 energy )
Screech : http://www.thottbot.net/s27051 (58.75 damage per 25 energy, plus attack power debuff)
Lightning breath : http://www.thottbot.net/s25012 ( calculated 53 damage per 25 energy - but ignores armor )
Bite : http://www.thottbot.net/s27050 (85,7 damage per 25 energy) - decent as a secondary skill, but not spammable, still worth taking though ?

Meaning, ravagers / boars seem to have the best attack vs energy usage.
Boars have -10% damage however, making them unsuited for raid DPS assist. (exellent for solo tanking tho)

Pets with spammable instant attacks :
Gore:
Ravager : HP: Low (-7%) • Armor: Medium (+5%) • DPS: High (+10%)
Boar : HP: High (+4%) • Armor: Medium (+9%) • DPS: Low (-10%)

Claw:
Cat : HP: Medium (-2%) • Armor: Low (+0%) • DPS: High (+10%)
Raptor : HP: Low (-5%) • Armor: Low (+3%) • DPS: High (+10%)
Scorpid : HP: Medium (+0%) • Armor: High (+10%) • DPS: Low (-6%)
Warp stalker : HP: Medium (+0%) • Armor: Medium (+5%) • DPS: Low (-6%)
Crab : HP: Low (-4%) • Armor: High (+13%) • DPS: Low (-5%)
Bear : HP: High (+8%) • Armor: Medium (+5%) • DPS: Low (-9%)

Screech:
Bat : HP: Medium (+0%) • Armor: Low (+0%) • DPS: High (+7%)
Owl : HP: Medium (+0%) • Armor: Low (+0%) • DPS: High (+7%)
Carrion bird : HP: Medium (+0%) • Armor: Medium (+5%) • DPS: Medium (+0%)


So, either a cat with Bite + Claw, or simply a Ravager with gore.
sadly the highest lvl ravagers are http://petopia.brashendeavors.net/ht..._ravager.shtml
lvl 63... ugh.. will take ages to level them up. didnt blizzard(some random blue) state they were planning to look into that issue?
the lvl 70 ones as stated earlier in this thread,, are not tameable.. hopefully blizzard will reconsider that.

Last edited by Zurgat : 05/29/07 at 5:40 AM.
#578SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
 Lactose
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I seem to be having a new problem here. I am still using my good old wind serpent since I think it was an optimal focus dump, but this weekend was my first raid after the patch and I am having some serious problems now.

I dont know if it has something to do with bosses or mobs in general being less immune against certain immobilizing effects, but my wind serpent backs out of melee all the time to just throw LB's.

Now I cant really swear if it has been like this before, but I notice it a lot now, since backing up to LB range gets the pet out of Kill Command range.

I was using the macro Glau supplied with all the "exist" "pet" "in range" and so on parameters, and I had the impression (and my log supports it) that the constant leaving of the melee range of my pet hindered the castsequence because KC had a problem working.

Sometimes my next autoshot got delayed by 5 seconds, so there must be something wrong, I was using this:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

after that lead to serious delays I removed everything from the kill command line to just
/cast Kill Command

but that didnt seem to help either, so I had to use my regular cast sequence and Kill Command separately.

But to be absolutely honest, its too much for me to mash one button like crazy, watch the cooldowns of 2 trinkets, my racial, BW, war drums, rapid fire, HM cooldown AND that kill command every 5 seconds on top of having a scared look at the KTM all the time which doesnt seem to work 100% accurate since the patch.

Let alone watch the fight itself if its something complicated.

So can someone tell me if I messed something up in my macro?

Cause if I didnt I dont see another choice but letting the wind serpent go for a pure melee pet and hope to have no problems with the macro anymore.
I noticed the same thing, and made a decent work-around for it.
Basically, I have two macros:
Steady Shot macro:
Casts Lightning Breath, casts Steady Shot. No stuff with Castsequence here (I don't use them), although I think it'd work fine if I were to include it.

Auto Shot macro:
Cast Kill Command (if pet is alive and has a target), casts Auto Shot.
I disable Auto-cast of Lightning Breath.

I'm at work right now, so can't post the correct syntax. Will do so if people are interested when I get back. Roughly 7 hours or so.

Last edited by Lactose : 05/29/07 at 5:41 AM. Reason: Added quote
#579SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692jarlelin
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Regarding Kill Command

/cast [target=pet, dead]; [pet] Kill Command

That line does nothing if your pet is dead, casts KC if your pet is active. I didn't experiment with [target=pettarget, exsts] but if you are worried about burning mana when your pet isn't in combat you can combine it all together

/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
Won't the [target=pettarget, exists] be enough to ensure that the command is only executed if the pet is alive and sunmmoned? Won't the macro fail if the pet is dead since it can have no target and hence the pettarget will not exist?
#580SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Breakerone
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I noticed the same thing, and made a decent work-around for it.
Basically, I have two macros:
Steady Shot macro:
Casts Lightning Breath, casts Steady Shot. No stuff with Castsequence here (I don't use them), although I think it'd work fine if I were to include it.

Auto Shot macro:
Cast Kill Command (if pet is alive and has a target), casts Auto Shot.
I disable Auto-cast of Lightning Breath.

I'm at work right now, so can't post the correct syntax. Will do so if people are interested when I get back. Roughly 7 hours or so.
I am surely interested as it might solve the two problems with the WS going out of range and the auto-delay caused by KC, but I guess it wont solve my general problem, because sadly I have to admit that for perfect damage I need a spam macro to have my eyes free for the other 10 cooldowns, KTM, the fight itself and positioning and HP of my pet.

The way you do it, you cant spam anything but you have to time your steady just like old times. That in itself is not a problem and I would agree that every good hunter should be capable of doing it perfectly if neccessary.
But it leads to the undeniable problem that you have to give even more attention to the handish steady/auto rotation then spamming a castsequence and do the KC manually, which definately lowers your attention on all the cooldowns or the fight.
#581SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Sapa
Originally Posted by banaj View Post
If you watch the details in wws you can see that a lot of the misses are dodges, not actually misses from the pet.
The actual misses from your pet (as in missing not dodging) is only 4% on auto-attacks.
I noticed the same thing as you did and then i started checking what actually happened and a lot of the misses are under parry/dodge in 5mans etc (im just an alt hunter).
Ufuf and i don't know how to read WWs properly
Thanks, but darn boss dodging from behind 8% (auto attack). Wtb pet weapon skill O.o
#582SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692wispy
Sorry to revert to a potentially previously covered topic (i have trawled through alot of pages now without spotting an answer), but how are you BM hnuters keeping your pets alive and active against Gruul?

The only time i tried the poor think triggered shatters to 2-3 other players (they were not at all happy). Although that was some time ago, but i have not seen any patch notes that say pets do not trigger shatter for other people.

Is there something i am missing? (almost bound to be the case).

Lacking the answer to this question is the one reason why i am not BM at the moment, as my guild are just putting Gruul on farming status, and moving onto Maggy.
#583SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Greenpiggy
Pets have not shattered people for a long long time now.
Its likely that they both killed each other and blamed it on the pet.
In fact the only thing to worry about on gruul now is to watch the melee spot for cave-ins and recall the pet when one happens, also throw it a mend when you are repositioning/running for the wall around shattertime.
#584SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Pets have not shattered people for a long long time now.
Its likely that they both killed each other and blamed it on the pet.
In fact the only thing to worry about on gruul now is to watch the melee spot for cave-ins and recall the pet when one happens, also throw it a mend when you are repositioning/running for the wall around shattertime.
With the changes to pets (i.e. avoidance) you should be able to quickly spot a pet in cave-in before it becomes lethal. A pet can take 1-2 ticks of cave-in without dying; as soon as 1 tick hits the pet, pull him back and hit him with mend pet. Wait 5 seconds and send him back in.

Keep in mind that cave-in cannot target pets (although it can hit pets) and pets cannot deal/receive shatter damage.
#585SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Redpath View Post
Lately I've been macroing Lightning Breath with Steady Shot in raids (and turning off auto-cast) and it has cut down on a lot of the problems I was having with erratic WS behavior. Even on the initial pull, when my WS goes in (w/o auto-cast) he keeps moving while casting LB, while with auto-cast on he would stop in place and cast LB until his focus was dry (and then you get those annoying crit strings where the stupid thing just sits there even longer). It seems to me that most of the LB problems are related to auto-cast and not the spell itself.

Even then though I sometimes feel like I'm wasting focus on crit strings. If the level 70 ravagers ever become tamable I'd probably just give up on WS in raids haha - or maybe I'll try a cat.
Why would you not train a Ravager with both Gore+Bite, rather than just Gore? I often see my pet(s) not being able to use up all the focus fast enough.
#586SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
This Steady Shot/KC Macro seems to work best for me as a BM hunter with Sunfury. I am thinking that the perfect bow speed for Kill Command would by 3.0 however.



#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
#587SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Howitzer
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
This Steady Shot/KC Macro seems to work best for me as a BM hunter with Sunfury. I am thinking that the perfect bow speed for Kill Command would by 3.0 however.



#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
This make you avoid any clipping in lag-fests? I never use macros and really try to shy away from them but when I was BM last week in SSC it was really pissing me off on some fights having to juggle steady, pet mends, putting pet on passive when needed, kill commands, etc....with damn near perfection to avoid dps loss.
#588SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Macros appear to be a necessary evil, in most cases. If you've got haste stacked (outside of iAotH and SS or you have a weapon with a fairly low speed to begin with) your macro is going to clobber shots unless you've got very good latency. However, outside of those conditions, macros appear to work fairly well.

Of course, a functional macro is not an excuse to not learn how to thread shots. If nothing else, when latency becomes too high you can revert to manually threading shots / mending / casting KC. I agree, fitting KC and Mend Pet into a rotation can be tricky - it's all about GCD management. Unfortunately, it would appear that the best hunters are the ones who can minimize damage lost to the rotation rather than maximize damage gained through the rotation.
#589SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Ernj
Which rotation is the most effective for BM hunters?
#590SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
This make you avoid any clipping in lag-fests? I never use macros and really try to shy away from them but when I was BM last week in SSC it was really pissing me off on some fights having to juggle steady, pet mends, putting pet on passive when needed, kill commands, etc....with damn near perfection to avoid dps loss.

I usually sit around 150-250 latency. The macro or at least the graphical animation isn't as smooth as pre-patch 2.1 when I was using just a Steady Shot/Auto Shot macro. I do believe that there is a slight delay before the next Steady Shot is cast when Kill Command happens (Kill Command activates only after an Auto shot has taken place). Possibly a 3.0 speed bow might make this more smooth?

But you're correct. Managing a pet, pet mends and all the other activities that are happening in a raid/boss fight makes macros almost a necessity (good or bad) sometimes. When I was MM, I just timed my shot rotations manually. Serpent's Swiftness makes this a little more difficult to master in my opinion.

The macro does account for your pet not being summoned, dead or a pet without a target so the macro won't get stuck trying to cast KC in these cases.
#591SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692svengarlic
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
I do believe that there is a slight delay before the next Steady Shot is cast when Kill Command happens (Kill Command activates only after an Auto shot has taken place). Possibly a 3.0 speed bow might make this more smooth?
Its difficult to know what the optimal weapon speed is without knowing how much your Kill Commands are causing your auto-shots to be delayed by. I would guess that 2.9 would still be better, simply because with a 3.0 you might be delaying every third or fourth auto-shot by .07 seconds less, but you've delayed all 3 or 4 of your steady shots by .07 seconds in that same period of time.

I haven't really seen anyone on these forums tackle the question of optimal weapon speed, probably because the answer depends on talent spec, haste effects, and latency.
#592SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
Its difficult to know what the optimal weapon speed is without knowing how much your Kill Commands are causing your auto-shots to be delayed by. I would guess that 2.9 would still be better, simply because with a 3.0 you might be delaying every third or fourth auto-shot by .07 seconds less, but you've delayed all 3 or 4 of your steady shots by .07 seconds in that same period of time.

I haven't really seen anyone on these forums tackle the question of optimal weapon speed, probably because the answer depends on talent spec, haste effects, and latency.
That pretty much nails it. Even if you divide things into BM versus MM/Survival, it's not easy to determine. SS more or less defines BM as using a priority replacement rotation (maintain steady/auto but replace steady with arcane/multi as they come off of cooldown) whereas MM and Survival are much more likely to use a 2-1-2-1 special rotation (auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady repeat). Obviously this changes the optimum speed, but factors such as the use of a spam macro (which is affected by latency) and latency itself are also crucial in determining optimum speed.

The general maxim I go with is this: after my talents/gear are taken into account for effect on attack speed, what is the minimum weapon speed I can use? Using the minimum speed means roughly 0 dead time between shots.
#593SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Crowl
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Pets have not shattered people for a long long time now.
Its likely that they both killed each other and blamed it on the pet.
That assumes blizzard haven't broken anything in the latest patch, I took 3 lots of damage a few times when there was definitely only the OT and two pets within range on our last gruul kill.
#594SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692 Glaurong
IMO, with current mechanics the ideal weapon speed is 1 minute. That way you could spam shots, mash kill command, do whatever you want to, and at the end of 1 minute your auto shot would hit for 30,000. Dragon Ball Z style.

On a more serious note the only spec that can really pick up a weapon with an ideal speed is BM. 2.6 if you live next door to the servers, 2.7-2.8 if you are between 100-200ms and 2.9 if you sometimes drift up to 300ms.

If I had my pick of a weapon speed as marks I would want a 3.7 or 3.8 speed weapon (which sadly don't exist). This would take me down to a ~3.2 speed and I could do an auto/special/special/auto rotation. Using steadies most of the time and manually filling in arcane shot and multi-shot. Multi would be deadly.

If I had my pick of a weapon speed for survival I'd want a 2.4 speed weapon (which outside of the consortium blaster, do not exist). That would allow me to maintain a high rate of fire and maximize EW uptime with as little headache as possible (An auto/special rotation with minimal dead time).
#595SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
IMO, with current mechanics the ideal weapon speed is 1 minute. That way you could spam shots, mash kill command, do whatever you want to, and at the end of 1 minute your auto shot would hit for 30,000. Dragon Ball Z style.

On a more serious note the only spec that can really pick up a weapon with an ideal speed is BM. 2.6 if you live next door to the servers, 2.7-2.8 if you are between 100-200ms and 2.9 if you sometimes drift up to 300ms.

If I had my pick of a weapon speed as marks I would want a 3.7 or 3.8 speed weapon (which sadly don't exist). This would take me down to a ~3.2 speed and I could do an auto/special/special/auto rotation. Using steadies most of the time and manually filling in arcane shot and multi-shot. Multi would be deadly.

If I had my pick of a weapon speed for survival I'd want a 2.4 speed weapon (which outside of the consortium blaster, do not exist). That would allow me to maintain a high rate of fire and maximize EW uptime with as little headache as possible (An auto/special rotation with minimal dead time).
Wouldn't it be lovely if they let us determine how fast or slow to shoot our bow, within a certain range of times (dependent upon the weapon itself)? That would avoid having to itemize for vastly different specs with different needs...
#596SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6692
 Glaurong
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Wouldn't it be lovely if they let us determine how fast or slow to shoot our bow, within a certain range of times (dependent upon the weapon itself)? That would avoid having to itemize for vastly different specs with different needs...
Or instead of ranged weapon drops they changed them to tokens you could turn in for a weapon that suited your spec. Hell, make it really friendly and allow you to exchange the weapon for another, in case you want to try a different spec.

That doesn't clutter up loot tables, allows for an amazing amount of flexibility and doesn't require implementation of any new systems, just content creation.

Edit: Few hints!

[Survival Bow of Winning]
100-300 Damage
2.5 Speed
80 DPS
+15 Agility
Red Socket x2
Socket Bonus - 3 Agility

[Marksman's Super Crossbow]
279 - 329 Damage
3.8 Speed
80 DPS
20 Crit Rating
40 Attack Power

[Beastmaster's Faceblaster]
174 - 274 Damage
2.8 Speed
80 DPS
10 Crit Rating
20 Attack Power
Equip: Your ranged attacks have a chance to increase your attack power by 250 for 10 seconds.

Last edited by Glaurong : 05/29/07 at 7:04 PM.
#597SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Rexpop
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
If I had my pick of a weapon speed for survival I'd want a 2.4 speed weapon (which outside of the consortium blaster, do not exist). That would allow me to maintain a high rate of fire and maximize EW uptime with as little headache as possible (An auto/special rotation with minimal dead time).
The Skyfire Hawk-Bow that drops in SH (second boss) is 2.4 speed. It's a great bow. I used it when I was Survival before the Wraithtide bow dropped. But I agree with you, for survival I think fast is better to cram in as many crits as possible to maintain EW.

For BM the sweet spot is 2.9-3.0. I have a 12ms latency and when I used Steelhawk it was pretty dicey trying to time the rotation. Wraithtide feels a little slow in places but makes it easier for me to get the rotation right.
#598SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Equalizer
So i'm reading the WoW hunter forums and Djinn is saying to use Arcane Shot and Multi-shot as a BM.

75% of what I read says Steady/Auto rotation is all to use.

Which is right?
#599SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692The Iron Colonel
Arcane/Multi will virtually always do more damage than steady (I say virtually because there might be some contrived situation in which this isn't true, but we can safely assume this is always the case). The issue is that Arcane and Multi cost significantly more mana and have only a marginal damage advantage over steady (for BM hunters). Thus, when mana is a concern, there is little incentive to cast arcane and multishot for BM hunters. In cases where you have a shadow priest or mana is otherwise not an issue to contend with, Arcane and Multi will net you more damage. It's really a matter of mana economy rather than maximizing damage.
#600SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6692Equalizer
I see, and they replace steady in the rotation? Not trying to fit it in with a steady?

Damn now I need to make multi/arcane rotation too bugger.
#601SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Zurgat
Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
I see, and they replace steady in the rotation? Not trying to fit it in with a steady?

Damn now I need to make multi/arcane rotation too bugger.
with BM your shot speed is so fast that it'd be nearly impossible to "add" it to the shot rotation without replacing steady shot. a Macro might be able to do it once every 4-5 shots.
if you're MM, it is definitely easier.

Just persuade your raid leader to put you with a Shadow priest
#602SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Shadow Priest is a non-issue, so I'm just working out a proper rotation.
#603SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Mech0z
Glaurong I agree with the possiblitity to get tokens for items. But I think they should add different tier sets first. The current tier 4 is more of a MM from my point of view where the tier5 is much better for BM set bonus wise. Also survival has a tougfh time with the amount of agility on tier 4 dunno if this is the case for tier 5 - 6.

But seeing some spec tier items like warlocks have would be nice (why do warlocks get all the love )
#604SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Zurgat
Do pets get a % of your +hit ?
my kitty seems to miss a fair ammount, for obvious reasons.
#605SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Sapa
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Do pets get a % of your +hit ?
my kitty seems to miss a fair ammount, for obvious reasons.
No, they don't.

Edit Magteridon kill last night:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...1454,2016&a=40

My Cat:
Melee 3% missed, 4% dodged
Claw 6% missed, 6% dodged
KC 4% missed, 12% dodged
Glancing hits: 20%

Morogrim kill:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...40&s=8157,8708
Cat:
Melee 5% missed, 7% dodged
Claw 3% missed, 7% dodged
KC 1% missed, 6% dodged
Glancing hits: 24%

Last edited by Sapa : 05/30/07 at 6:14 AM.
#606SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Arcane/Multi will virtually always do more damage than steady (I say virtually because there might be some contrived situation in which this isn't true, but we can safely assume this is always the case). The issue is that Arcane and Multi cost significantly more mana and have only a marginal damage advantage over steady (for BM hunters). Thus, when mana is a concern, there is little incentive to cast arcane and multishot for BM hunters. In cases where you have a shadow priest or mana is otherwise not an issue to contend with, Arcane and Multi will net you more damage. It's really a matter of mana economy rather than maximizing damage.
So I'm going to be a pest. When I do a priority rotation in Cheeky's SS (Multi 1st, Arcane 2nd) it says my DPS should be 1050. When I do a steady shot rotation it says my DPS should be 1060.

Why doesn't it report higher DPS with the Multi/Arcane rotation if it's suppose to be more DPS?
#607SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Xoran
Did you put in some armor for the target?
#608SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by Xoran View Post
Did you put in some armor for the target?
Good question, no I didn't and I don't see where to do that to be honest. But is the one Arcane Shot every 6 seconds that isn't mitigated by armor going to add more then maybe 2 or 3 dps?
#609SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Xoran
On top of the gear tab is a box for target level and armor underneath. I dont know if it alone explains the difference, but you can easily play with it.
#610SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Sienna
I was trying out all kinds of castsequence / cast combinations last night but wasn't succesful yet to create a macro which does steady/auto and puts in KC when it is up, and not only that, it puts KC after autoshot fires, not before. I tried using modifiers in /castsequence such as

/castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot, [Modifier:Shift] Kill Command

Apparently modifiers don't work for castsequence as they work for /cast. If this did work, it would only do the first 2 parts of the sequence most of the time and whenever KC was ready I was gonna hit shift when steady was casting so after steady casts, it would shoot Auto and then put KC. Did anyone figure out a workaround for this by any other means?

Edit: This works /castsequence reset=ctrl Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Kill Command

I keep resetting my macro before it reaches Kill Command whenever KC is not active and leave it be when it is active. Although it's an annoying way to do it.

Last edited by Sienna : 05/30/07 at 7:39 AM.
#611SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by Xoran View Post
On top of the gear tab is a box for target level and armor underneath. I dont know if it alone explains the difference, but you can easily play with it.
Thanks for the info, went ahead and tested.

Added 10,000 armor (bringing the mob to 48.64% Mitigation) and that made the Arcane/Multi rotation end up 38 DPS ahead of the Steady/Auto rotation. Of course I don't really know what a normal amount of armor is for a boss, it obviously varies. But I guess the lower the mitigation the better a Steady/Auto rotation does.
#612SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729khel
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
no joke? If you don't mind could you post his name, etc? I'd like to see his setup / talent configuration. Also, is he outclassing people in 25 man raids? I could see this happening pre 2.1 if you're talking 5 mans or Kara.
Warlocks beat me pre 2.1, but I always beat the rogues/mages/shadowpriests. I only have Gruul and Mag to show for it though.

Post 2.1, I was still top3 on Gruul (haven't worked out KC totally yet though...latency issues are causing me to have to ignore it for now), and pretty much blew everyone away on Magtheridon even though I was a clicker (hunters should be doing that anyway really for that fight).


Kheled - Shattered Halls (EU) is the toon, but pvp specced atm.
#613SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Cheeky
Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
Good question, no I didn't and I don't see where to do that to be honest. But is the one Arcane Shot every 6 seconds that isn't mitigated by armor going to add more then maybe 2 or 3 dps?
Depending on how much armor the mob has, yes.
#614SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Depending on how much armor the mob has, yes.
Yeah I figured it out after Xoran pointed out the armor area of the SS.

Now I just need to start figuring out what the armor value is of bosses so I can choose the right rotations.
#615SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
I wanted to wait a couple of weeks after 2.1 to post my own differences between the 3 trees in fights where "easy" is not a term widely used yet that defines the fights I had parsing. My logs are only from Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep, specifically Void Reaver, Hydross, Tidewalker, and Al'ar.

There are a lot of Hunters that come here asking "whats the best spec?" and I still hold true to the fact that it depends greatly on your own play style and what you are most comfortable playing as. As I'll show you, all 3 trees are capable of great damage output, but some are definitely better than others depending on certain factors.

Week 1 (right when 2.1 hit)

Hydross kill with 5/20/36 Survival build:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070522-Hydross2.1/
971 DPS (with a Feral druid - no shadow priest)

Void Reaver with 0/36/25 (38/23 type like 2.0)Marks build:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070501-VoidReaver/
721 DPS

Tidewalker kill with 5/20/36 Survival build:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070523-Tidewalker2.1/
869 DPS

Week 2

Hydross kill with 41/20/0 Beast Mastery build:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070529-Hydross/
1068 DPS (with a Feral druid - no shadow priest)

Al'ar kill with 12/46/6 Marks build:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070529-Al'ar/ <-- cut/paste this link
751 DPS

Void Reaver kill with 12/46/6 Marks build:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070529-VoidReaver/
769 DPS

Conclusions so far:

Survival 2.1:
Very gear dependent. You need to take the time to throw in all 8 agi gems into all your sockets and get every agility enchant available. This spec, to me, really shines the most with a minimum 33% unbuffed crit level because of EW and ToTH procs. The mana that you save with this build is really amazing and you can see it in the WWS logs on mana returned from that wonderful 3 point talent. If, however, you are a Hunter that is regularly grouped with a shadow priest such as myself, it gets to the point where you cannot burn mana fast enough even if you tried quite literally. I believe this build with the proper gear and a great knowledge of shot rotations can out-DPS the marks tree currently. The proof is in the pudding. The other Hunter in all my logs who served as an excellent control and who I might add I consider my equal is 36/25 Marks in every single one of those WWS logs. He is always full raid buffed, potted, and in the same group as me for every run.

Marksman 2.1:
While the Marks tree has always been something dear to me I am really to the point now where I can't see it pulling ahead of the pack when compared to the other 2. Even with an unbuffed 2350 RAP @ solid 30% to crit with max hit this spec CAN put out huge numbers......but not "sustained" numbers. There just seems to be a drop-off in sustained dps from the MM tree that the BM tree and even the SRV tree don't suffer as greatly from. Possibly the lack of sustainability in terms of mana and the dependence of 3 shot rotations for maximum output, (arcane, steady, multi). The biggest flaw I have seen here is the inability to always use Multi-shot which is a bread-and-butter DPS boost for this tree considering you're investing 6 talent points which you can only use "some" of the time because of CC'd adds, aggro issues, etc. Don't get me wrong, MM is still a "Decent" tree, but after trying the other 2 trees in 2.1 I'm not too impressed anymore.

Beast Mastery 2.1:
Never thought I'd really believe it, let alone say it, but this spec with all variables in unison can pump out insane sustained DPS. What I mean by variables is: Your pet can be used and has moderate to low risk of sudden death and you have good paladins in a raid that are not anal about buffing your pet with BOK/BOM/MOTW/ etc. Last night's Hydross as BM pushed DPS that exceeded or matched 1100+ spell damage Warlocks / Mages that were seeding and AOE'ing almost the entire fight. Now to me, thats pretty damn unheard of. As hard as it is to micro-manage the pet, use KC at every opportunity, (I don't use macros), steady shot in perfect rotations, and everything else required to stay alive, I really think that the BM tree, (while it'll take getting used to), is what I will be sticking with for full-time raiding from here on out. The Survival tree would be my close 2nd choice because it truly is a lot better now than it was in 2.0 even with the band-aid fix to the Survival Instincts talent.

Anyway, I hope this gives you all a little more perspective from my own POV.
#616SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Beast Mastery 2.1:
Never thought I'd really believe it, let alone say it, but this spec with all variables in unison can pump out insane sustained DPS. What I mean by variables is: Your pet can be used and has moderate to low risk of sudden death and you have good paladins in a raid that are not anal about buffing your pet with BOK/BOM/MOTW/ etc. Last night's Hydross as BM pushed DPS that exceeded or matched 1100+ spell damage Warlocks / Mages that were seeding and AOE'ing almost the entire fight. Now to me, thats pretty damn unheard of. As hard as it is to micro-manage the pet, use KC at every opportunity, (I don't use macros), steady shot in perfect rotations, and everything else required to stay alive, I really think that the BM tree, (while it'll take getting used to), is what I will be sticking with for full-time raiding from here on out. The Survival tree would be my close 2nd choice because it truly is a lot better now than it was in 2.0 even with the band-aid fix to the Survival Instincts talent.

Anyway, I hope this gives you all a little more perspective from my own POV.

Well, many people have been using BM since TBC release since it's definitely the best dps tree right now as long as you can micromanage and keep your pet alive. It's theoretically not possible for a MM to reach BM dps right now. And it's not that hard to execute in practise as well, many people just use castsequence for auto/steady and manually insert KC's, even that is enough to sustain a really good dps.
#617SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
At the risk of reducing a substantial body of evidence that you've presented, I'd say this has pretty much reinforced my initial thoughts based on comments from the community at large. Survival CAN put out huge numbers, but requires very specific itemization that by and large steps outside the bounds of the tier sets (not necessarily a bad thing, but it is what it is). Marks kind of got the shaft (or rather, it failed to get any substantial buffs in 2.1) whereas BM, which had plenty of situational damage dependent upon the variables you mentioned, got much stronger. Between greatly enhanced pet functionality (KC, Mend Pet) and Survivability (Avoidance) pets are now actually useful on many fights, which pushes BM far far up the meters.

Now, I do have serious concerns about the scaling of the class in the long-term, but that's not for this thread.
#618SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
I agree with you, Sienna. I know hunters have been using BM since TBC release I tried it myself for quite a while when this thread first started. But the obvious change to pet survivability / pet mend has made this tree shine so much more than before specifically for the raiding hunter.

edit: Iron Colonel, I worry about scaling later on also. But what I'm hoping is that the bigger-better ranged weapons will make the difference in damage output once we get to BT/Hijal levels.
#619SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
 Lactose
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
edit: Iron Colonel, I worry about scaling later on also. But what I'm hoping is that the bigger-better ranged weapons will make the difference in damage output once we get to BT/Hijal levels.
I wouldn't put money on this.

Edit: Keep in mind ranged weapons still have to adher to the itemization rules. This limits how much damage can scale up based on weapons alone.

Last edited by Lactose : 05/30/07 at 9:08 AM.
#620SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Lysander1
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I was trying out all kinds of castsequence / cast combinations last night but wasn't succesful yet to create a macro which does steady/auto and puts in KC when it is up, and not only that, it puts KC after autoshot fires, not before. I tried using modifiers in /castsequence such as

/castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot, [Modifier:Shift] Kill Command

Apparently modifiers don't work for castsequence as they work for /cast. If this did work, it would only do the first 2 parts of the sequence most of the time and whenever KC was ready I was gonna hit shift when steady was casting so after steady casts, it would shoot Auto and then put KC. Did anyone figure out a workaround for this by any other means?

Edit: This works /castsequence reset=ctrl Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Kill Command

I keep resetting my macro before it reaches Kill Command whenever KC is not active and leave it be when it is active. Although it's an annoying way to do it.
Would two macros, one that put Kill Command in and was bounded to (lets say) Shift Mouse Wheel, another without Kill Command bounded to Mouse Wheel, work to accomplish what you are looking for? When Kill Command lit up, you could hold Shift and the Kill Command macro works. Once you cast Kill Command, you have 1 Auto Shot cycle to stop holding Shift and keep spamming your normal rotation.

The advantage of this system, if it indeed works, would be that you can cast Kill Command after Auto Shot rather than after Steady Shot (and therefore before Auto Shot), escaping the 0.5 second delay. It seems to me that it would work. I have noticed that (when not using #showtooltip Steady Shot), my macro for Steady/Auto will shift between my bow icon (i.e. Auto Shoot) and my Steady Shot icon (the skill), meaning that the game decides on a global level for all castsequence macros when an action has been used in sequence. Is that true, or was I noticing something else? If I have a macro that castsequences Fire Blast, Ice Lance, Frost Nova and I tap it once, then cast Ice Lance manually, and then tap the macro again, will the macro cast Ice Lance or Frost Nova?

[EDIT] Nevermind, my apologies, I missed the fact that Steady Shot would cause that same 0.5 second delay, so as long as you are mousewheel spamming Glau's macro the delay increase due to Kill Command would be less than .1 seconds.

Last edited by Lysander1 : 05/30/07 at 9:56 AM. Reason: I'm stupid, forgot something crucial.
#621SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
Would two macros, one that put Kill Command in and was bounded to (lets say) Shift Mouse Wheel, another without Kill Command bounded to Mouse Wheel, work to accomplish what you are looking for? When Kill Command lit up, you could hold Shift and the Kill Command macro works. Once you cast Kill Command, you have 1 Auto Shot cycle to stop holding Shift and keep spamming your normal rotation.

The advantage of this system, if it indeed works, would be that you can cast Kill Command after Auto Shot rather than after Steady Shot (and therefore before Auto Shot), escaping the 0.5 second delay. It seems to me that it would work. I have noticed that (when not using #showtooltip Steady Shot), my macro for Steady/Auto will shift between my bow icon (i.e. Auto Shoot) and my Steady Shot icon (the skill), meaning that the game decides on a global level for all castsequence macros when an action has been used in sequence. Is that true, or was I noticing something else? If I have a macro that castsequences Fire Blast, Ice Lance, Frost Nova and I tap it once, then cast Ice Lance manually, and then tap the macro again, will the macro cast Ice Lance or Frost Nova?
You could fairly easily bind one macro with KC to mouse wheel down and the other to mouse wheel up (although this would require some coordination with the mouse wheel ^^) rather than using modifier keys - freeing up the left hand to do other tasks (like movement, pet management, etc). Honestly, I would try one of the macros that Glau posted a page or two back and bind it to the wheel. It should do the trick just fine.
#622SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I was trying out all kinds of castsequence / cast combinations last night but wasn't succesful yet to create a macro which does steady/auto and puts in KC when it is up, and not only that, it puts KC after autoshot fires, not before. I tried using modifiers in /castsequence such as

/castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot, [Modifier:Shift] Kill Command

Apparently modifiers don't work for castsequence as they work for /cast. If this did work, it would only do the first 2 parts of the sequence most of the time and whenever KC was ready I was gonna hit shift when steady was casting so after steady casts, it would shoot Auto and then put KC. Did anyone figure out a workaround for this by any other means?

Edit: This works /castsequence reset=ctrl Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Kill Command

I keep resetting my macro before it reaches Kill Command whenever KC is not active and leave it be when it is active. Although it's an annoying way to do it.

I have yet to see a successful macro with KC in the /cast sequence along with Steady Shot/Autoshot.
#623SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
I have yet to see a successful macro with KC in the /cast sequence along with Steady Shot/Autoshot.
Keep in mind that casting KC will ALWAYS overwrite casting steady/auto. You will always need 2 keystrokes to cast both KC and steady or auto. With that in mind, I'm unclear as to your definition of success: are you aiming for 1 keystroke to cast 2 spells? This is an impossibility with the current macro system. The best you can do is create a macro that casts kc when available (requiring a 2nd keystroke for steady or auto) and otherwise defaults to the castsequence of steady/auto.
#624SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Keep in mind that casting KC will ALWAYS overwrite casting steady/auto. You will always need 2 keystrokes to cast both KC and steady or auto. With that in mind, I'm unclear as to your definition of success: are you aiming for 1 keystroke to cast 2 spells? This is an impossibility with the current macro system. The best you can do is create a macro that casts kc when available (requiring a 2nd keystroke for steady or auto) and otherwise defaults to the castsequence of steady/auto.
I don't use keys, castsequence macros are always bound to my free spin mouse wheel. So no, that's not the issue. With success I mean a macro which will, with good timing, put the KC after auto, not before.
#625SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Glaurong
Basically we need Slouken to change it so /stopcasting does not cancel auto shot or reset a /castsequence. It really isn't necessary as you can use /stopattack and /castsequence has the reset modifier.
#626SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Basically we need Slouken to change it so /stopcasting does not cancel auto shot or reset a /castsequence. It really isn't necessary as you can use /stopattack and /castsequence has the reset modifier.
Indeed, or just add the option to use modifiers with individual parts of the castsequence.
#627SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Rokh
Why exactly are you afraid to fire KC off before an auto-shot? I'm using a simple

/cast Kill Command
/castsequence Auto Shot, Steady Shot

And don't see a difference in my auto-shot timing.
#628SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Ladwenae
If im not mistaking both KC and steady delays auto by 0.5 second, but since KC is ( or should be ) instant then using KC after auto but before steady means that the 0.5 CD doesnt matter while if you use KC after a steady you cant avoid extending the period with auto CD ( like if it takes you 0.2 sec to cast KC after a steady you basicly delayed auto by 0.2 sec )
#629SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
If im not mistaking both KC and steady delays auto by 0.5 second, but since KC is ( or should be ) instant then using KC after auto but before steady means that the 0.5 CD doesnt matter while if you use KC after a steady you cant avoid extending the period with auto CD ( like if it takes you 0.2 sec to cast KC after a steady you basicly delayed auto by 0.2 sec )
I am not sure KC delays auto. I tried to test it and wasn't able to delay auto appreciably (at least, I wasn't able to measure it in the combat log at minimum distance to target). Can anybody else come up with a good way to confirm or disconfirm this?
#630SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Rokh
If it does, it's so minimal it doesn't matter. You'll lose more to clipping your next auto trying to manually time KC after an auto shot.
#631SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
Originally Posted by Rokh View Post
If it does, it's so minimal it doesn't matter. You'll lose more to clipping your next auto trying to manually time KC after an auto shot.
KC does put 0.5 auto delay, that's why if you keep firing your KC's after steady and before auto, you will clip your autos unnecessarily. On the other hand if you fire your KC right before you start casting steady, you won't lose any time for using KC, so it's a lot better. That's why I'm asking if anyone found a practical way to do it. The way I do, it is doable. But it's again precise timing of reset modifier in every cast and it's exhausting, especially under haste effects.

And it is not that minimal effect considering as BM I have 2.1 sec autoshot cooldown already, and I usually have at least one haste effect active whichs pulls it to 1.7 seconds or less. So I definitely clip my autos if I use KC before them.
#632SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Sienna, I'm not sure that KC delays autoshot. Your explanation seems circular to me - it delays auto shot because it causes a delay in auto shot. Can you provide confirmation of the delay? I'm perfectly happy to accept that it does, but I haven't been convinced by anyone and my tests were inconclusive.
#633SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Sienna
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Sienna, I'm not sure that KC delays autoshot. Your explanation seems circular to me - it delays auto shot because it causes a delay in auto shot. Can you provide confirmation of the delay? I'm perfectly happy to accept that it does, but I haven't been convinced by anyone and my tests were inconclusive.
KC as every other hunter shot puts a 0.5 sec autoshot cooldown, been confirmed by many people before, it was either in this thread or in the general hunter mechanics thread.

Btw I was practising my macro with reset modifier for castsequence and so far it looks like it's doable, and not that hard. Just gotta hit the reset key everytime your auto fires, there's of course a reaction time involved in this but I'm pretty sure it's a lot shorter than 0.5 seconds and eventually you'd end up delaying things a lot less than before.

Last edited by Sienna : 05/30/07 at 8:17 PM.
#634SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Goreshot
Kill Command delays Auto Shot.

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...953#post352953


I've done Steady->KC->Steady with no Autos in between. No, I don't use a macro. Generally what I try to do is Steady->Auto->KC->Arcane->Auto->etc. Basically, you use Arcane Shot as a way to "compensate" for the loss in timing you would get if you try to weave a KC in between Steadies and Autos. If your GCD falls far enough behind, you can use both Arcane and Multi to allow it to "catch up" to the proper Auto Shot timing such that you can hit Steady at the appropriate time (i.e. immediately after Auto). This way you don't push back any of your Autos while still maintaining a special in between Auto Shots.

If that's too complicated, just hit KC after the Auto goes off and spam either Arcane or Multi right after that. Then hit Steady Shot after the next Auto goes off.*

*When I say "after" I actually mean "when your timing tells you that you can start casting Steady without clipping the Auto Shot." Isn't doing hunter DPS fun?
#635SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Ernj
Having trouble deciding which pet to go with for pve raiding purpoeses; cat, ravager or wind serpent? I currently have a wind serpent, I'm BM specced and I am willing to level a ravager if it's best.
#636SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Spiry
Originally Posted by Ernj View Post
Having trouble deciding which pet to go with for pve raiding purpoeses; cat, ravager or wind serpent? I currently have a wind serpent, I'm BM specced and I am willing to level a ravager if it's best.
If you're willing to level a ravager from level 63, that would be the best bet, as it has been stated (assuming my reading skills haven't failed me) that gore > claw. As for the cat/wind serpent? I used to have a wind serpent but the annoying behaviour of moving out of melee range to cast LB drove me nuts, so I tamed one of those cute lynxes in the Eco-Domes in Netherstorm
#637SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
Originally Posted by Goreshot View Post
Kill Command delays Auto Shot.

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...953#post352953


I've done Steady->KC->Steady with no Autos in between. No, I don't use a macro. Generally what I try to do is Steady->Auto->KC->Arcane->Auto->etc. Basically, you use Arcane Shot as a way to "compensate" for the loss in timing you would get if you try to weave a KC in between Steadies and Autos. If your GCD falls far enough behind, you can use both Arcane and Multi to allow it to "catch up" to the proper Auto Shot timing such that you can hit Steady at the appropriate time (i.e. immediately after Auto). This way you don't push back any of your Autos while still maintaining a special in between Auto Shots.

If that's too complicated, just hit KC after the Auto goes off and spam either Arcane or Multi right after that. Then hit Steady Shot after the next Auto goes off.*

*When I say "after" I actually mean "when your timing tells you that you can start casting Steady without clipping the Auto Shot." Isn't doing hunter DPS fun?

After practising on blasted lands I kinda got the rythm of my macro and was able to keep it going for 4 minutes without messing up so it does indeed work and KC's always fire after auto, never get any delays with this. But I have no idea if I can focus this much on this in a raid setting. Other than that, since I'm BM, I never use multi or arcane, so using them to get back on track is not an option for me. I'd rather just clip an auto instead.
#638SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Spiry View Post
If you're willing to level a ravager from level 63, that would be the best bet, as it has been stated (assuming my reading skills haven't failed me) that gore > claw. As for the cat/wind serpent? I used to have a wind serpent but the annoying behaviour of moving out of melee range to cast LB drove me nuts, so I tamed one of those cute lynxes in the Eco-Domes in Netherstorm
I just lurk here, but I remember there being talk about scorpids somewhere in this thread since their poison still scales with our RAP like the old LB and TBW/BW also affects it's damage.

Scorpids start out with -6% dps but with their scorpid poison ticking once every two seconds, at just 100 a tick that is 50 DPS and it can use claw as well. I have gotten scorpid poison to tick for over 240 as well, although I've never been able to keep it that high for an appreciable amount of time.

I had it for use for three days before I went to Japan (where I am now until saturday) and it seemed to do well but I don't have logs and such. I would pop my nightseye panther trinket, pop TBW, then tell it to start poisoning as another hunter here (who originally posted about the scorpid) said the initial applications matter, as when it is refreshed it will stay at those damage levels. Others also discovered though that the poison can be dodged/parried and miss.

Has it been narrowed down to just the cat vs ravager now?

EDIT: Post 357 on page 15 of this thread, going to go back and read now.

Last edited by Reipin Pillage : 05/30/07 at 10:49 PM.
#639SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Lysander1
Steady Shot also causes the 0.5 second Auto Shot delay. At the point where you're spamming the macro, there is really no difference between the KC post-Steady causing the 0.5 second delay or the Steady itself causing that delay. Right?
#640SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729matthra
I use two macro's, a steady one to keep me from clipping my steady shots, and a second that does arcane shot and kill command. Arcane and Kill command stack nicely, since they have similar cooldowns. It plays alot like a rogue IE: 2-2-2-3-3-2-2-2-3-3

Clip protector:
#showtooltip steady shot(rank 1)
/castsequence reset = 2 autoshot, steady shot(rank 1)

Double tap arcane kill combo:
#showtooltip Arcane shot(rank 9)
/castsequence reset = 2 arcane shot(rank 9), kill command

They seem to be working out ok for me, though as always if anyone has a better idea I'm all ears.
#641SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Noah
I want a ravager myself, and I keep putting off leveling one - I know as soon as I get it to 70 they'll make those ones in the Netherwing mine tamable.

The scoripid information is quite interesting, would it make snakes Poison Spit a similar deal (only with initial damage instead of stacking) I presume it benefits from spell damage although I've never had one myself.
#642SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
Steady Shot also causes the 0.5 second Auto Shot delay. At the point where you're spamming the macro, there is really no difference between the KC post-Steady causing the 0.5 second delay or the Steady itself causing that delay. Right?
You are right, in theory it should be the same, I still have no idea why when I use my macro I get slightly higher dps results in recap right now, it might be a slight delay between steady and KC and then another 0.5 delay for auto, I really don't know. But under equivalent crit percentages I'm getting 40-50 higher dps with my macro compared to standard KC + castsequence macro.
#643SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Lysander1
Thats interesting, Sienna, because to me it "feels" like that too. I haven't done any testing though, so of course I'm just speaking out of my ass here, but it feels like I'm clobbering shots badly with the macro..

But I come here for a different purpose now. Here is the WoW Web Stats of my guild's Attumen kill today:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...ymw&s=935,1183

We're a kind of odd guild. We had one group that cleared Karazhan easily and quickly. Then we had a second group that was kind of struggling. The 4 best players in our A group transferred off the server to get into a more hardcore guild, and the other 6 were split between the A and B group. So the group I'm in has some people with great gear (well, not AMAZING like I see on here, but better than what I have, like Cylindiel in that WWS) and some are just beginning to acquire Kara gear. You can check my armory, I believe I'm logged out with exactly what I was using for the fight.

My main question is this: why is my DPS so low? I see logs here of Hunters who (as far as I can tell) have only marginally better gear than me pulling easy 1000 dps numbers. For reference my group had Trueshot Aura shared to me and thats it (buffwise). I was running Kings and Salvation (our Pallies think that Hunters pull aggro.. though thats kind of the fault of our Hunters for being lazy back in MC trash clearing : /). On the fight logged, I was just spamming the macro posted here earlier with mousewheel. My latency, unfortunately, is higher than most. I don't live in the US, so it hovers around 350-450 most of the time. Can anyone give me advice on how to bring my DPS up? I'm really hoping that with some help from these forums I can hit at least 900 dps.
#644SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
My main question is this: why is my DPS so low? I see logs here of Hunters who (as far as I can tell) have only marginally better gear than me pulling easy 1000 dps numbers. For reference my group had Trueshot Aura shared to me and thats it (buffwise). I was running Kings and Salvation (our Pallies think that Hunters pull aggro.. though thats kind of the fault of our Hunters for being lazy back in MC trash clearing : /).
Blessing of Might. Get it.
While your stats might be comparable (albeit slightly lower) to those Hunters you've looked up, your stats will be lacking compared to those Hunters who do have Blessing of Might. Getting that should boost your output noticably, I think.
#645SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
So here's what I decided to do and I was curious whether this makes sense.

I've been futzing with cast sequence stuff and decided to make a quick shots rotation macro.

So what I do is Steady/Auto till either quick shots or my dragonspine procs and then start using the macro which has arcane/multi-shot in it. Since once one haste procs I can pretty much keep it up 80-90% of the fight.

Seems my DPS was up because of doing it this way.
#646SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Tonights SSC / Gruul WWS logs as 41/20 BM:


Fathom Lord Karathress
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Karathress/
1009 DPS

Tidewalker
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Tidewalker/
1121 DPS

The Lurker Below
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Lurker/
(Can't use pet & still possible to have respectable dmg output)
795 DPS

Gruul
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Gruul/
1122 DPS

Leotheras the Blind - 41/20/0 Beast Mastery:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Leotheras/
819 DPS
#647SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Tonights SSC / Gruul WWS logs as 41/20 BM:


Fathom Lord Karathress
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Karathress/
1009 DPS

Tidewalker
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Tidewalker/
1121 DPS

The Lurker Below
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Lurker/
(Can't use pet & still possible to have respectable dmg output)
795 DPS

Gruul
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Gruul/
1122 DPS

Leotheras the Blind - 41/20/0 Beast Mastery:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Leotheras/
819 DPS
Dude you were grouped with a Spriest, shaman AND feral druid?
#648SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Ellurion
Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
Dude you were grouped with a Spriest, shaman AND feral druid?
Shadow priest used on Leo, without Feral druid.
Shadow priest + Feral used on Lord Karathress.
Only Feral on Morogrim Tidewalker.
Only Shadow Priest on The Lurker Below.
No Feral and no Shadow Priest on Gruul the Dragonkiller.

No shaman in any log.


2Howitzer

By the way , from Gruul the Dragonkiller log:

Shatter 13,138 4 % 8 1642 2989



Howitzer you should delete this info from log.
#649SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...ymw&s=935,1183

My main question is this: why is my DPS so low?
First thing, for the vast majority of fights Might > Kings > Wisdom > Salvation
Drill this into your pallies relentlessly until they start doing it, and make sure your hunters do their part by not pulling aggro, its surprisingly simple not to do when concentrating unless your tank is threatly challenged.(Blessings apply equally for your pet - Might > Kings)
Second thing - looking at your logs you gained Aspect of the Viper during the fight - thats a big portion of lost dps right there, how much of the fight did you have it active for?
#650SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post

My main question is this: why is my DPS so low? I see logs here of Hunters who (as far as I can tell) have only marginally better gear than me pulling easy 1000 dps numbers.
700dps is not too shabby considering your circumstances. You can reach over 1000 (pre patch, now it should be easier) only if you have a perfect group (feral/enhancement/warrior) shoot nonstop, drink fel mana, pot yourself, have a might blessing on you and your pet and you definately need to delete aspect of the viper from your bars. From a raiding perspective you should never use that. Even using the mark of conquest costs dps, and in kara its really never needed if you use fel mana.

Edit: was only talking about attumen...
#651SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Kash
I was wondering if I should change my gear, in order to increase Pet-Dmg...

What do you think about items with +% pet damage like : http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22061

there is a good shoulder-item that drops in mount hyjal too...

Im just not sure if it's better in the end...


Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post

The Lurker Below
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Lurker/
(Can't use pet & still possible to have respectable dmg output)
795 DPS
Its perfectly possible to let your pet survive. Just let it stay on the dock and it will get hit by spout, but that's no problem if it's health was around 6k. Really easy, my pet survived the whole fight

Last edited by Kash : 05/31/07 at 9:35 AM.
#652SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Minor point, but Attumen is a somewhat high mitigation target as I understand things. Not going to bump you 3-400 dps, but on a slightly less armored target you'll be around or just over 700 dps, which isn't bad (especially since you had AotV up instead of hawk).

I haven't really had issues with my macro clobbering shots to squeeze in KC (maybe 1/3 of the time it delays auto), but Matthra's suggestion makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just going to go back to timing my steady as normal and write a macro to link arcane to KC and double tap that when it's ready. A more efficient way to do arcane/kc might be

#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Kill Command

My only question is how to ensure it doesn't cast Kill Command if your pet is out of range or has no target. If I'm correct, it should never attempt to cast KC unless KC is lit up and you have a pet (otherwise it would return an error, and castrandom won't try to cast if it'll cause an error, right?). I'm at work so I can't test this now, but if someone with more knowledge of the API can chime in I'd appreciate it.
#653SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Bartel
Since 2.1 my pet doesn't take any dmg at Hydros, so it survives till the end. This resulted in the following issue yesterday and last week:

KTM auto clears the threat when Hydros changes state. But at the end of the fight my pet was listed in my KTM for 80k threat and other people reported that I was by far on top on their KTM eventhough i used FD and i had almost no threat in my own KTM. This ruined KTM for mages/locks/shadowpriests and they whined that they couldn't maximise their dps anymore.

So my guess is that the autoclear doesnt clear pet threat and other players see my pets threat as the hunter's threat in their KTM. Anyone else has the same problem on Hydros?
#654SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Norwest
Originally Posted by Bartel View Post
So my guess is that the autoclear doesnt clear pet threat and other players see my pets threat as the hunter's threat in their KTM. Anyone else has the same problem on Hydros?
I had that problem on Attumen. KTM gets confused with pets.

Edit: You guys must do attumen differently from our guild. My DPS always sucks on him because we run in for phase 2 and melee him.

Last edited by Norwest : 05/31/07 at 10:27 AM.
#655SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by Ellurion View Post
Shadow priest used on Leo, without Feral druid.
Shadow priest + Feral used on Lord Karathress.
Only Feral on Morogrim Tidewalker.
Only Shadow Priest on The Lurker Below.
No Feral and no Shadow Priest on Gruul the Dragonkiller.

No shaman in any log.


2Howitzer

By the way , from Gruul the Dragonkiller log:

Shatter 13,138 4 % 8 1642 2989



Howitzer you should delete this info from log.
The first Karathress fight has him with all 3, look at his buffs. He gets Bloodlust and a Fire Resist totem.
#656SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Rexpop
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
I had that problem on Attumen. KTM gets confused with pets.

Edit: You guys must do attumen differently from our guild. My DPS always sucks on him because we run in for phase 2 and melee him.
I noticed that problem on Attumen last night as well. During Phase 2 I notice my pet was somehow close to cresting over the main tank in aggro so pulled him out. I thought it was weird at the time so I guess now I know why.

On phase 2 I usually just stand at range and take the occasional charge. As long as you don't pull aggro it doesn't hit for that much and if you bandage or healthstone directly after the charge you should be fine.
#657SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Daenerys
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
My DPS always sucks on him because we run in for phase 2 and melee him.
Why would you do that?
#658SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by Norwest View Post
I had that problem on Attumen. KTM gets confused with pets.

Edit: You guys must do attumen differently from our guild. My DPS always sucks on him because we run in for phase 2 and melee him.
Stand at max range and he won't charge you.
#659SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Minor point, but Attumen is a somewhat high mitigation target as I understand things. Not going to bump you 3-400 dps, but on a slightly less armored target you'll be around or just over 700 dps, which isn't bad (especially since you had AotV up instead of hawk).

I haven't really had issues with my macro clobbering shots to squeeze in KC (maybe 1/3 of the time it delays auto), but Matthra's suggestion makes a lot of sense to me. I'm just going to go back to timing my steady as normal and write a macro to link arcane to KC and double tap that when it's ready. A more efficient way to do arcane/kc might be

#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Kill Command

My only question is how to ensure it doesn't cast Kill Command if your pet is out of range or has no target. If I'm correct, it should never attempt to cast KC unless KC is lit up and you have a pet (otherwise it would return an error, and castrandom won't try to cast if it'll cause an error, right?). I'm at work so I can't test this now, but if someone with more knowledge of the API can chime in I'd appreciate it.
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

This ensures KC doesn't cast if the pet is not summoned, dead or has no target. However, I am not sure what happens if the pet is out of range of its target.
#660SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

This ensures KC doesn't cast if the pet is not summoned, dead or has no target. However, I am not sure what happens if the pet is out of range of its target.
It delays the sequence until its back in range
#661SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Tonights SSC / Gruul WWS logs as 41/20 BM:


Fathom Lord Karathress
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Karathress/
1009 DPS

Tidewalker
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Tidewalker/
1121 DPS

The Lurker Below
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Lurker/
(Can't use pet & still possible to have respectable dmg output)
795 DPS

Gruul
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Gruul/
1122 DPS

Leotheras the Blind - 41/20/0 Beast Mastery:
http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530-Leotheras/
819 DPS
2Howitzer

By the way , from Gruul the Dragonkiller log:

Shatter 13,138 4 % 8 1642 2989



Howitzer you should delete this info from log.
Whoops, I didn't think that filtered in there. Ah well its only 13k, right? We don't even bother moving out anymore its just an all-out psychotic dps burn and when we get thrown we just move around a little to minimize the shatter's spread. heh.
#662SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
The first Karathress fight has him with all 3, look at his buffs. He gets Bloodlust and a Fire Resist totem.
This was actually a change towards the middle of the fight when I was moved into an SP group because I was going OOM extremely fast. Fortunately, I have a guild that understands Hunters pretty well and is willing to bend a bit to make sure I, (and everyone else), can DPS to their full potential. But I was not and probably never, ever will have a shaman, a sp, and a FD in the same group. Man I wish I could though. -=p
#663SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
This was actually a change towards the middle of the fight when I was moved into an SP group because I was going OOM extremely fast. Fortunately, I have a guild that understands Hunters pretty well and is willing to bend a bit to make sure I, (and everyone else), can DPS to their full potential. But I was not and probably never, ever will have a shaman, a sp, and a FD in the same group. Man I wish I could though. -=p
haha, yeah I was like "wtf how did he pull that off".

Still good stuff. I want to get a good log of my next Gruul to see how I stand now. Can't get good parses while learning new fights.
#664SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Vernichter
Please forgive me for posting somewhat off-topic speculation, but after posting this in an enhancement discussion, I felt it was warranted here as well. In the retribution paladin thread a handful of players have demonstrated signficant sustainable paladin DPS to the point of being threat-capped (~900-1000+ DPS). At the same time, it has been made abundantly clear that hunter group construction is very difficult, particularly owing to the desire for a shadowpriest. This need could be mitigated with reliable use of BoW, but that is impractical without a retribution paladin to help maintain it.

I'd propose that current dps trends can justify two physical DPS groups: a windfury group and a non-windfury group. Consider the following arrangement:

Group 1:
Fury Warrior
Enhancement Shaman
Retribution Paladin
Rogue
Rogue

Group 2:
Resto Shaman
Feral Druid
Survival Hunter
Beastmaster Hunter
Hunter/Rogue (Mutilate?)

In this arrangement the windfury group would lose LotP and the Feral Druid (and potentially one rogue) would lose BS and UR. In exchange, the raid would gain Imp JotC and (with the assistance of another paladin on misses) JoW. In addition, the Feral druid and hunters would have access to GoA in addition to SoE. They would share the FI from each Beastmaster, and the hunters could take advantage of LotP. The hunters would also gain Mana Tide, which, in conjunction with increased JoW uptime and standard potting, should satisfy their mana needs. Last of all, both groups would get the benefit of EW, which would have a boosted uptime and potency due to GoA and LotP.

Is there merit in this distribution of physical dps synergies?
#665SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
I haven't seen enough about Ret paladins to be sure. And if the feral druid is cat, he's prolly not going to be happy to be without the enhance shaman.
#666SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Lysander1
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll make sure to talk it over with our Pallies and make sure they realize that Hunters will keep up our end of the bargain and Feign if they give us Might/Kings =). In response to the AotV thing, I only swapped it on during the last ~20 seconds of the fight. I mainly use Hawk, and I don't use Fel Manas (yet =o?). Thanks for the help, I'll try out some more stuff and post another WWS log in a bit.
#667SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Vernichter View Post
Group 1:
Fury Warrior
Enhancement Shaman
Retribution Paladin
Rogue
Rogue

Group 2:
Resto Shaman
Feral Druid
Survival Hunter
Beastmaster Hunter
Hunter/Rogue (Mutilate?)
That group arrangement might be feasible, but it certainly won't help the Group 2 Feral druid (or rogue, if you put a rogue in). If you replaced the third hunter/rogue with a shadow priest, who requires few if any group buffs, you might get away with it. 3% damage bonus to a shadow priest and Mana Stream/Tide are a nice bonus. Yes, the priest won't be supplying as many healers/dpsers with mana, but it certainly isn't a bad group. However, you're really hurting the dps of the feral druid in this case (no BS or UR). You could swap the resto shaman with a second enhancement shaman, but that would kind of be silly (although I'm sure it would work on some level). He'd be able to give GoA to the group and windfury on himself, but again, why bring 2 enhancement shaman?
#668SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Harwin
Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
Stand at max range and he won't charge you.
Is this true even if you don't have the 41yd range talent? I've always fought him by standing on him. Crappy crappy dps.
#669SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Harwin View Post
Is this true even if you don't have the 41yd range talent? I've always fought him by standing on him. Crappy crappy dps.
Yes; he'll still charge people who are in range (charge has a min range and max range, but the max range is less than 35 yards), but he won't charge you at 35 yards. His area is not a very large space though, so you may have trouble getting far enough away.
#670SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Kom
I've been BM for a long while now, simply for the damage output and being able to keep up or surpass casters in SC and TK. However I've never really looked into the theory of shot cycles and such, I've always felt that not much of it would apply to us oceanic players sporting our 600ms latency, so I just sit there with my steady / auto cycle with KC every so often. Couple of things I'd like help with though, as noobish as they seem, is that I've seen a lot about weapon speed for BM hunters, my reckoning always was that with a pure steady/auto rotation after each steady shot (1.5 second cast is affected by talents and/or quiver correct? :/) your auto shot always fires, so therefore the slower the weapon the more those auto shots in between will do, without affecting the speed of your rotation. Im guessing all this is completely wrong as faster weapons or weapons in the mid 2.0 speed seem to be what many BM hunters are seeking. Any help is much appreciated..
#671SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729cipro
not sure if this has been explained before but howitzer are hourglass and tsunami talisman on the same 45s cooldown? and if so do you still think its viable to use them both? over lets say bloodlust brooch that you can activate along with beast within and rapid fire; or something predictable is what i'm getting at.
#672SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Kom View Post
I've been BM for a long while now, simply for the damage output and being able to keep up or surpass casters in SC and TK. However I've never really looked into the theory of shot cycles and such, I've always felt that not much of it would apply to us oceanic players sporting our 600ms latency, so I just sit there with my steady / auto cycle with KC every so often. Couple of things I'd like help with though, as noobish as they seem, is that I've seen a lot about weapon speed for BM hunters, my reckoning always was that with a pure steady/auto rotation after each steady shot (1.5 second cast is affected by talents and/or quiver correct? :/) your auto shot always fires, so therefore the slower the weapon the more those auto shots in between will do, without affecting the speed of your rotation. Im guessing all this is completely wrong as faster weapons or weapons in the mid 2.0 speed seem to be what many BM hunters are seeking. Any help is much appreciated..
The timing issues aren't limited to BM. The issue is that if you want to insert both a steady and a second special between 2 auto shots without delaying auto shot, you have to have an exceptionally slow weapon to avoid GCD issues. You're going to trigger the GCD twice if you use steady+other (the first GCD you don't notice because an unhasted steady shot overlaps the 1.5 GCD completely, but if you haste your steady you still have to cope with the unhasted GCD time of 1.5s - unless you've got heroism/bloodlust, which haste the GCD. Complicated...). This means 3.0 seconds of GCD for every 2 autoshots - essentially (if you time everything perfectly so there is no dead time) you would have to have a 3.0 speed weapon (if you were doing 2 specials per 1 auto). However, you can only do 2 specials every other auto due to cooldown timers on Multi-shot and Arcane Shot.

Let's say you are only concerned about delaying auto shots, not steady shots. In this case, you'd need to have a speed that balanced the two timing issues. The first window would require you to have 1.5 seconds for steady, 0.5 for auto, and 0.5 for multi. If you time things perfectly, the slowest you can do this without delaying auto is 2.5 seconds. However, you've triggered a GCD of 1.5 seconds with multi and only spent 0.5+0.5 seconds of the 1.5 in this window, so the second window now has 0.5 seconds of GCD time before you can start firing steady shot. Ok, so the second window (1 steady) takes 0.5 gcd + 1.5 steady + 0.5 auto = 2.5 seconds. Ok, so with a 2.5 speed weapon you can insert a second special shot every other window without delaying auto (again, assuming 0 latency and perfect timing).

This is actually very close to the fastest possible MM weapon that you routinely see (Sunfury Bow is 2.9, with quiver it's 2.9/1.15=2.52s). In order for BM, with 5/5 SS, to get this speed, you'd need a bow that's 2.5*1.20*1.15=3.45 speed. There simply are no bows this slow (you could take fewer points in SS to 'tune' the bow speed to the right speed, but that really wouldn't net you much since you're now slowing down you pet). Most BM hunters choose to reduce the window down to fit a single special shot and eliminate dead time (i.e. try to get a bowspeed close to 1.5-2.0 [after quiver/ss], so they have wiggle room for latency, etc).

Unfortunately, as long as our shots are tied to auto shot, we're severely limited in what we can do by weapon speed and latency.
#673SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Glaurong
As a BM hunter you definitely want to find a weapon that minimizes the dead time between when your steady finishes casting and auto shot fires. Yes, a slow weapon will hit harder but not nearly enough to make up for the reduced number of steady shots you will fire in the long run. As a hunter you want your DPS to be bound by the GCD+latency. Under ideal conditions you want to be pushing a button every 1.5 seconds (slightly more with KC).
#674SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Vernichter
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel
That group arrangement might be feasible, but it certainly won't help the Group 2 Feral druid (or rogue, if you put a rogue in). If you replaced the third hunter/rogue with a shadow priest, who requires few if any group buffs, you might get away with it. 3% damage bonus to a shadow priest and Mana Stream/Tide are a nice bonus. Yes, the priest won't be supplying as many healers/dpsers with mana, but it certainly isn't a bad group. However, you're really hurting the dps of the feral druid in this case (no BS or UR). You could swap the resto shaman with a second enhancement shaman, but that would kind of be silly (although I'm sure it would work on some level). He'd be able to give GoA to the group and windfury on himself, but again, why bring 2 enhancement shaman?
Initially I was going to suggest putting a shadowpriest with the hunters since current BM/Survival DPS levels justify it, but I think that the mana returns would be overkill. From the commentary I have seen in the various hunter threads, constant BoW + a Shadowpriest can provide more mana than a hunter needs. I remember one post in particular where Gonkish described ending fights at more than 50% mana because he simply could not spend it fast enough. There has been ample debate about whether the shadowpriests should go with the healers (perhaps allowing the raid to run with one less healer), with the caster DPS, or with the hunters. One catch with hunters is that they spend mana at a lower rate than the other casters, and its really not possible to increase the expenditure past a point (unlike mages). Hunters just do not have the pool depth or natural regen options of the caster classes, so they are forced to chain-chug potions. However, if BoW could be relied upon, the situation would be a bit different and the shadowpriest might be able to go elsewhere.

As to the feral druid, he would be trading battleshout and UR for GoA. Obviously that's a raw deal. However, the big question is whether or not there is a better alternative. Is there anyone in the windfury group that does not belong? Clearly the feral cannot replace the warrior or shaman. He could replace a rogue, but then only three people would benefit from Windfury totem and the rogue would lose out on the same buffs that the feral would have been missing. The only viable target to swap out is the paladin.

I'm guessing that the following is true:
Ret Pali (Windfury+UR+BS) + Feral (GoA+FIx2) > Ret Pali (GoA+FIx2) + Feral (UR+BS)

If it is true, then the feral druid would belong with the hunters. As an aside, the GoA for the feral would also be of particular benefit for any offtanking duties.
#675SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
That's true, you could have an OT feral druid in the group (in which case the shadow priest might benefit him more as well). You're correct that Hunters can't spend all of the mana that a shadow priest gives, but I would counter that if you have a shadowpriest available for that group, 2 BM hunters with FI up would increase the SP DPS by an enormous amount (and the SP could keep up misery and Shadow Weaving for the raid without respect to which group he's in). I think it's mostly a case of "if you can spare an SP for that group, go for it" as opposed to denying a mage or warlock group an SP. Our raids tend to have more shadow priests than holy priests, simply because shadow is so very good for the raid (and paladins/tree druids can largely fill the role of a holy/disc priest), so my view is somewhat skewed in terms of access to a shadow priest.
#676SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Originally Posted by cipro View Post
not sure if this has been explained before but howitzer are hourglass and tsunami talisman on the same 45s cooldown? and if so do you still think its viable to use them both? over lets say bloodlust brooch that you can activate along with beast within and rapid fire; or something predictable is what i'm getting at.
Yes, they're on the same internal cooldown and I do prefer using the Hourglass over the bloodlust brooch simply because its absolutely awesome when they both proc at the same time while bloodfury is up and TBW is up. Thats like 900+ AP + 10% damage the numbers become insane and you'll see 1500 kill commands and hit like you're MM spec. (plus its one less trinket to worry about. I already have to watch TBW and Bloodfury timers)
#677SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Kyt
Originally Posted by Kom View Post
I've been BM for a long while now, simply for the damage output and being able to keep up or surpass casters in SC and TK. However I've never really looked into the theory of shot cycles and such, I've always felt that not much of it would apply to us oceanic players sporting our 600ms latency, so I just sit there with my steady / auto cycle with KC every so often. Couple of things I'd like help with though, as noobish as they seem, is that I've seen a lot about weapon speed for BM hunters, my reckoning always was that with a pure steady/auto rotation after each steady shot (1.5 second cast is affected by talents and/or quiver correct? :/) your auto shot always fires, so therefore the slower the weapon the more those auto shots in between will do, without affecting the speed of your rotation. Im guessing all this is completely wrong as faster weapons or weapons in the mid 2.0 speed seem to be what many BM hunters are seeking. Any help is much appreciated..
There's actually some very good numbers posted on steady spam being -higher- dps (esp w/ latency) over at the Hunting Hunters thread. You can find the #s that were discussed as far as AP and crit for BM here: Hunting Hunters...

Also, to answer your question, while steady shot's cast time can be sped up, our Global Cooldown is still 1.5s. You just can't spam steady any faster than that. Anyway, lots of good info in the thread I linked, and I believe the current trend for BM is to get your weapon as close to 2.0 as possible so you don't lose too much time on auto/steady spam, but still have time to work a KC in.
#678SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Rexpop
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Yes; he'll still charge people who are in range (charge has a min range and max range, but the max range is less than 35 yards), but he won't charge you at 35 yards. His area is not a very large space though, so you may have trouble getting far enough away.
I've been charged at 41 yards (back when I had the extended range) talent. I've been charged at 35 yards and I've been charged at 7 yards. I've also seen people be charged when they have been standing closer than me and further away from me. It's totally random who he charges as long as they are outside his melee range.

As I said before, his charge doesn't hit that hard and as long as you get a heal, bandage or healthstone/potion afterwards you are usually in good enough shape to take another one. And to be honest if you don't have enough health to take a charge from Attumen then you will have trouble on some of the next fights (Maiden, Morose) that require a deeper health pool.

Last edited by Rexpop : 05/31/07 at 4:34 PM. Reason: minor addition
#679SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Glaurong
I've seen all kinds of stuff with Attumen charge. Pretty sure it uses RSTS to pick a target and charges. If that target is too close the charge fails.
#680SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Kom
Thanks for the info, believe my only problem was thinking that steady shot resets your auto shot timer, I guess I never found a weapon slow enough to suggest otherwise with my latency.

With my current range weapon I have 2.1 speed, so I guess that would be pretty much perfect for 600ms+GCD.

As for my DPS, it really hasn't been an issue so far with steady shot spam, however I may think about turning auto-shot timers on my mods back on and trying to some other rotations.
#681SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Harwin
Originally Posted by Rexpop View Post
I've been charged at 41 yards (back when I had the extended range) talent. I've been charged at 35 yards and I've been charged at 7 yards. I've also seen people be charged when they have been standing closer than me and further away from me. It's totally random who he charges as long as they are outside his melee range.

As I said before, his charge doesn't hit that hard and as long as you get a heal, bandage or healthstone/potion afterwards you are usually in good enough shape to take another one. And to be honest if you don't have enough health to take a charge from Attumen then you will have trouble on some of the next fights (Maiden, Morose) that require a deeper health pool.
Well, assuming I'm the only hunter there (likely in a 10-man )I'm the only one who benefits by standing farther away. But by doing so I decrease DPS/TPS for everyone else (since they can't attack him while he's charging) and I force the healers to throw a heal on me.

If I can't outrange it, guess I'll just stick to meleeing him.(he's been on farm for months anyway, no huge reason to change strat if it adds risk) At least I'm BM.
#682SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
The Iron Colonel
Wow, I guess I'm just lucky. I haven't been charged by Attumen in almost 2 months (about the time I started standing max range). I guess I've just been lucky, though; it makes much more sense for him to use RSTS than some oddball system.

Anyway, as Rexpop said there's no reason not to stand at range and dps him - he doesn't hit hard enough to be a real concern.

[edit] correct have to haven't, such that this post makes a lick of sense.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 06/01/07 at 8:40 AM.
#683SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Ladwenae
The way I have done attumen was to have a pally standing furthest away from him which usually meant that he was getting charged and I just stood a bit to the side of the rest of the raid and could DPS all the time.
And as allready said, even if he do charge you its nothing to worry about.
#684SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729cipro
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Yes, they're on the same internal cooldown and I do prefer using the Hourglass over the bloodlust brooch simply because its absolutely awesome when they both proc at the same time while bloodfury is up and TBW is up. Thats like 900+ AP + 10% damage the numbers become insane and you'll see 1500 kill commands and hit like you're MM spec. (plus its one less trinket to worry about. I already have to watch TBW and Bloodfury timers)
wait they're on the same timers? or seperate 45s timers. You kinda through me off by saying 'its absolutely awesome when they both proc at the same time'
#685SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Originally Posted by cipro View Post
wait they're on the same timers? or seperate 45s timers. You kinda through me off by saying 'its absolutely awesome when they both proc at the same time'
no they're on different timers but they both have a 45 sec internal cooldown. Having them proc both at the same time is pure luck.
#686SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Krypt
I just recently picked up the Al'ar talon as BM spec with a pure auto/steady rotation, do you think with the mana usage and cycle interupts with arcane, that this Trinket would benifit a BM hunter by adding it into our rotation?
#687SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
I just recently picked up the Al'ar talon as BM spec with a pure auto/steady rotation, do you think with the mana usage and cycle interupts with arcane, that this Trinket would benifit a BM hunter by adding it into our rotation?
I read somewhere here on this forum that the al'ar talon trinket is the equivalent to 175 ranged attack power. You be the judge. =)
#688SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Elvandir
The talon adds 40 damage to each damaging shot. (does this apply to Auto, as it is technically a "damaging shot"). So for 6 sec you do an extra 40 damage per steady (worst case).

40 damage / 0.3 (steady shot scaling factor) = 133.3 RAP
2.0 attack speed (assumed)
6 sec duration
Maximum of 4 steadys
160 extra damage
26.6 DPS increase from steady alone (best case)

More realiticly you are going to get 3 steadys per proc so
120 extra damage
20 DPS boost...

/disclaimer
Rough numbers only, and I'm low on coffee
/enddisclaimer
#689SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Steady Shot's scaling factor is not 0.3 - it's 0.2.

I'm pretty sure Auto Shot is affected by it. Basically, if you spam Arcane Shot at every cooldown, you'll gain 40 raw damage every shot, possibly excepting the Arcane Shot you use to trigger it - unless you've got a couple of points in Improved Arcane Shot?

As a BM, 5-6 shots per 6 seconds doesn't seem too unlikely, does it? Equaling +35ish raw DPS.

Raw = pre-mitigation and damage modifiers /crits
#690SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Steady Shot's scaling factor is not 0.3 - it's 0.2.

I'm pretty sure Auto Shot is affected by it. Basically, if you spam Arcane Shot at every cooldown, you'll gain 40 raw damage every shot, possibly excepting the Arcane Shot you use to trigger it - unless you've got a couple of points in Improved Arcane Shot?

As a BM, 5-6 shots per 6 seconds doesn't seem too unlikely, does it? Equaling +35ish raw DPS.

Raw = pre-mitigation and damage modifiers /crits
basically, I want this trinket.
#691SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Elvandir
That sounds about right, the only problem might be GCD/rotatio interupt from the Arcane, though, it would still be a DPS boost.
#692SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Bloodwrath
So i've had some serious issues threading in this kill command now that it's worth using (debatable its mana per damage is not all that great) Using a sunfury atm and that at 2.1 speed auto would appear to leave me no room for steady/auto 2.0 secs with only .1 sec reaction/lag time to thread in the kill command. Do i just suck or is there something else i could do to thread in the KC?
#693SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Originally Posted by Bloodwrath View Post
So i've had some serious issues threading in this kill command now that it's worth using (debatable its mana per damage is not all that great) Using a sunfury atm and that at 2.1 speed auto would appear to leave me no room for steady/auto 2.0 secs with only .1 sec reaction/lag time to thread in the kill command. Do i just suck or is there something else i could do to thread in the KC?
Well, what I've done, and this might sound silly, but I've attached it to my arcane shot in a very simple macro:

/cast Kill Command
/cast Arcane Shot(Rank 9)

I do this for the simple fact that I really have enough damn buttons to worry about as it is to make room on my hotbar. Its either that or I grow a new finger. So basically, if kill command is up I hit the key once, if it isn't up or I'm out of range, an arcane shot goes off and vice versa. Or I just smack it twice and both go off. Meh, its been working nice so far and I like it.

A lot of people like to spin up these steady shot / kill command macros but to me thats a total disaster. I never want my steady shot to be linked up with anything just in case I have mana issues and I choose NOT to use kill command. Arcane shot is shot that I'll use when mana is abundant so I decided to tie KC in with that instead of the SS.
#694SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Kyt
Originally Posted by Kom View Post
Thanks for the info, believe my only problem was thinking that steady shot resets your auto shot timer, I guess I never found a weapon slow enough to suggest otherwise with my latency.

With my current range weapon I have 2.1 speed, so I guess that would be pretty much perfect for 600ms+GCD.

As for my DPS, it really hasn't been an issue so far with steady shot spam, however I may think about turning auto-shot timers on my mods back on and trying to some other rotations.
Try the following macro (for high latency)

/castsequence reset=4 Steady Shot, Auto Shot

You can pretty much spam this all day long and you should never clip a shot. usually spam this until I see my steady castbar and then start mashing multi or arcane to thread a shot (I'm not BM). Hope it helps. I've found it's a lifesaver on high latency evenings.
#695SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Rexpop
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Well, what I've done, and this might sound silly, but I've attached it to my arcane shot in a very simple macro:

/cast Kill Command
/cast Arcane Shot(Rank 9)

I do this for the simple fact that I really have enough damn buttons to worry about as it is to make room on my hotbar. Its either that or I grow a new finger. So basically, if kill command is up I hit the key once, if it isn't up or I'm out of range, an arcane shot goes off and vice versa. Or I just smack it twice and both go off. Meh, its been working nice so far and I like it.

A lot of people like to spin up these steady shot / kill command macros but to me thats a total disaster. I never want my steady shot to be linked up with anything just in case I have mana issues and I choose NOT to use kill command. Arcane shot is shot that I'll use when mana is abundant so I decided to tie KC in with that instead of the SS.
I've done pretty much the same and I'm in total agreement on the steady/kill macros. For most fights I use a Steady Shot, AS, Steady Shot,AS, Arcane Shot, AS 6 second cycle and I always pop the Kill Command if its up just after the Arcane shot fires (when the 1.5 global cool-down is active).

I do this for a couple of reasons. (1) It's the only place I can place a Kill Command in the rotation without interrupting something. (2) With a 5 second cool-down on Kill Command (and a five second proc duration) if any of the shots in the cycle crit then it will be available for use at the right point cycle, and by the next cycle the cool-down will have cleared. Also it lets me keep the 'Exploited Weakness' proc of the Beast Lord set up nearly constantly buying me an extra couple % damage.
#696SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Zurgat
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Well, what I've done, and this might sound silly, but I've attached it to my arcane shot in a very simple macro:

/cast Kill Command
/cast Arcane Shot(Rank 9)
Didn't blizzard's new API block out attaching 2 actions to 1 button though?
#697SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
That's why he has to press it twice if he wants to use both skills.
#698SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
Binding KC to arcane shots sadly doesnt help beastmasters, and slowly but surely I'm really getting in a bad mood with this KC and wind serpent thing.

I was on my first Mag Kill yesterday and while I still need to get used to the fight, which let me forget refreshing HM and so on, it was still pretty ok:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...vq&s=2693,3327

On the first 3 trys people forgot to click cubes (doh!), and on try 3 and kill I had to click the cube on the other side of the room and lost almost 10 seconds each, so I couldnt beat the warlock who just nuked away but it would have been easy otherwise.

The whole night I was kind of pissed, because my wind serpent was really CONSTANTLY out of melee range. On the adds I could only use 1 out of 3 available KC's.
That really does it. I will drop the serpent now, problem is, I really dont have the nerv to level a ravager, so I will get a lvl 70 cat until they decide to make the lvl 70 ravager tamable.

Now in this thread and in the other ones people talked a lot about the dps of pets and their specific skills and surely everyone can figure it out for himself, but it would be great to have most of the stuff compiled in one post if anyone feels he has too much time on his hand

Does one of the spreadsheets handle the full pet dps? Including focus management through BD and GftT and all of the possible multiplicators like pet class and orc racial?

For the cat, would you get both claw and bite or only claw? I am unsure if it would make sense to get bite, since claw would quickly deplete the focus anyway and I guess bite would not be used a lot, which would be wasted training points.
#699SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Regarding Wind Serpent and it backing out of range for Lightning Breath:
Disable auto cast and put
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
at the end of whatever skill you spam the most (Steady Shot?).
Syntax might not be 100% correct. Doing this circumvents the 'back out' AI.
#700SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Zurgat
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
That's why he has to press it twice if he wants to use both skills.
Odd,, i've had Riposte + Sinister strike bound to 1 button for a while after the patch, but kept getting an error that the blizzard ui blocked out that action.

Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Regarding Wind Serpent and it backing out of range for Lightning Breath:
Disable auto cast and put
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
at the end of whatever skill you spam the most (Steady Shot?).
Syntax might not be 100% correct. Doing this circumvents the 'back out' AI.
Although that might work, you will miss out on a "lot" of hits that your pet could be doing, and subsequently have less "ferocious inspiration" as well. (assuming you are BM)
A Pet such as a Cat, or Ravager might be doing numerous melee hits in between using abilities.. if you're forcibly keeping your pet at a range, then he's not doing as much damage as it "could" be doing. Nor could you use Kill Command.

Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
For the cat, would you get both claw and bite or only claw? I am unsure if it would make sense to get bite, since claw would quickly deplete the focus anyway and I guess bite would not be used a lot, which would be wasted training points.
If you want your pet to do damage, get bite + claw. i think i listed the energy vs damage of bite earlier. it's not much but it might just be worth taking.
#701SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Although that might work, you will miss out on a "lot" of hits that your pet could be doing, and subsequently have less "ferocious inspiration" as well. (assuming you are BM)
A Pet such as a Cat, or Ravager might be doing numerous melee hits in between using abilities.. if you're forcibly keeping your pet at a range, then he's not doing as much damage as it "could" be doing. Nor could you use Kill Command.
The macro I posted allows the Wind Serpent to use Lightning Breath in melee, regardless of whether or not the target is rooted / stunned.
It doesn't force the pet to stay AT range, it forces it to stay IN (melee) range.
#702SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Although that might work, you will miss out on a "lot" of hits that your pet could be doing, and subsequently have less "ferocious inspiration" as well. (assuming you are BM)
A Pet such as a Cat, or Ravager might be doing numerous melee hits in between using abilities.. if you're forcibly keeping your pet at a range, then he's not doing as much damage as it "could" be doing. Nor could you use Kill Command.
EDIT: Lactose beat me to it
#703SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Breakerone
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post

Although that might work, you will miss out on a "lot" of hits that your pet could be doing, and subsequently have less "ferocious inspiration" as well.
Edit: totally beaten...

But then I use this post for another question. Many people say they use their mousewheel for the spam macro, which makes sense to save some long term pain. But when I do this my wheel is way to fast and the game starts lagging immediately. Do you configure your wheel to roll slower or something?

Last edited by Breakerone : 06/01/07 at 5:35 AM.
#704SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Kirion
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Odd,, i've had Riposte + Sinister strike bound to 1 button for a while after the patch, but kept getting an error that the blizzard ui blocked out that action.
KC is instant and doesnt not start GCD right? If so this one should work:

/cast Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast Arcane Shot(Rank 9)


But maybe i'm very wrong
#705SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Reipin Pillage
Has anyone had a chance to read the post by Zek in the "Hunting Hunters" thread?

Specifically post #860 in this link Hunting Hunters...

He uses a 69 scorpid and from the link in his post his pet produces 290 DPS, getting scorpid poison to tick up to 600? http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...377,10726&a=32

Similiarly Howitzer has a WWS where he uses what I assume is a cat at lvl 70 and produces 321 dps... http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530...alker/bfg.html
#706SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Sapa
Going to link it here to:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...377,10726&a=32

Check pet ImwithStupid (because i didn't check what pet i have,... freshly tamed 69 scorpid, with main POISON attack... for SSC raid)

Poison is changed ^^ and i was able to put it up to 605 damage/tick and hold it there for ~1 minute.

Someone do damage/focus fast

Edit: ups 1 post up, beat me to it

Last edited by Sapa : 06/01/07 at 6:20 AM.
#707SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Krohl
Regarding the wind serpent range issue, I'm still using a level 70 wind serpent as well.

A bandaid fix to missing KC because its nuking from range is to hit the pet attack button more than once. If you send pet to attack it stops as soon as its in Lightning Breath range, but if you hit the attack button again it immediately moves into melee range.
#708SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sapa
Originally Posted by Reipin Pillage View Post
Similiarly Howitzer has a WWS where he uses what I assume is a cat at lvl 70 and produces 321 dps... http://netigen.com/kuya/wws-20070530...alker/bfg.html
Cats are ok dps. Im in process of leveling ravager to compare numbers.

Magteridon, 70cat, claw only, caster group (no bs, tsa, totems) - 292dps
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...40&s=1454,2016

Tidewalker, 70cat, claw only, melee group with no shaman!! (BS only) - 321dps // also first kill
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...40&s=8157,8708

Edit: Cat had reflexes trained.
#709SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
Cats are ok dps. Im in process of leveling ravager to compare numbers.

Magteridon, 70cat, claw only, caster group (no bs, tsa, totems) - 292dps
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...40&s=1454,2016

Tidewalker, 70cat, claw only, melee group with no shaman!! (BS only) - 321dps // also first kill
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...40&s=8157,8708
As I said before I have a 70 scorpid after reading a post in this thread somehwere around page 15 or so. I already have him at max loyalty so if 500+ a stack is normal after 2.1 I will definitely be sticking with him, that's 250+ DPS without counting anything else, so long as it is maintainable.

I'd expect this to get nerfed just like LB though once word gets around. Something along the lines of a hotfix for it while we wait an entire patch or more for Misdirect
#710SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
I was worried there for a second, cause I thought you mean 290dps only by the scorpid poison. But if its total dps, I dont see it as too special and stay convinced that the wind serpent does more.

My serpent had 374dps on Mag yesterday, and hoping that Lactoses macro works, thats due for improvement, since I missed on tons of kill commands:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...33&s=2693,3327

Dont forget that the serpent also gets a benefit out of this "next 3 nature damage spells enhancement" thing from a shammy.
Then again, I guess the scorpid gets that as well.
#711SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sapa
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I was worried there for a second, cause I thought you mean 290dps only by the scorpid poison. But if its total dps, I dont see it as too special and stay convinced that the wind serpent does more.

My serpent had 374dps on Mag yesterday, and hoping that Lactoses macro works, thats due for improvement, since I missed on tons of kill commands:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...33&s=2693,3327

Dont forget that the serpent also gets a benefit out of this "next 3 nature damage spells enhancement" thing from a shammy.
Then again, I guess the scorpid gets that as well.
Scorpid was loyality1, untrained level 69 beast too got far more glancings than with cat lvl70 (20% vs 48%) I think it can be improved, very improved
#712SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
Scorpid was loyality1, untrained level 69 beast too got far more glancings than with cat lvl70 (20% vs 48%) I think it can be improved, very improved
Then I'll sure be interested in lvl 6 loyality and lvl 70 pet stats

We all want the best dps pet, but it was hard to talk me out of my WS yet.
#713SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Reipin Pillage
EDIT: Beaten once more QQ

If this all works out to be good to be true keep your windserpent anyway, you can bet the official WoW boards will sooner or later have 10+ threads about how "skorpidz r teh best!!" which will of course force blizz to nerf them ;p
#714SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Krohl
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
Scorpid was loyality1, untrained level 69 beast too got far more glancings than with cat lvl70 (20% vs 48%) I think it can be improved, very improved
Loyalty doesn't directly affect DPS does it? Happiness does, but a pet would still be able to be happy with loyalty 1?
#715SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Krohl View Post
Loyalty doesn't directly affect DPS does it? Happiness does, but a pet would still be able to be happy with loyalty 1?
The 69 scorpid he tamed comes with max ranks of scorpid poison and claw. That means that at loyalty level 1 he has negative training points, and thusly, no cobra reflexes.

I think that's why he mentioned it
#716SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Originally Posted by Krohl View Post
Loyalty doesn't directly affect DPS does it? Happiness does, but a pet would still be able to be happy with loyalty 1?
Loyalty doesn't directly influence DPS.
Higher survivability due to trained skills, and Cobra Reflexes, however...
#717SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sapa
Originally Posted by Reipin Pillage View Post
The 69 scorpid he tamed comes with max ranks of scorpid poison and claw. That means that at loyalty level 1 he has negative training points, and thusly, no cobra reflexes.

I think that's why he mentioned it
Yup, and it had no claw when tamed.
No cobra reflexes, 5 weapon skill less than lvl70, lower survival that forced me to heal/watch him more and dps less... generating less focus.

Anyway, looking forward to test more about it.
#718SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Cheeky
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Does one of the spreadsheets handle the full pet dps? Including focus management through BD and GftT and all of the possible multiplicators like pet class and orc racial?
Yes, I make a decent attempt to completely model pet DPS in my spreadsheet.
#719SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Best that I can tell (independently deriving the math) Cheeky's sheet is as accurate as you'll get. Now, you can't account for a lucky (or unlucky) string of crits/noncrits starving your pet of focus, but the way he approached it is statistically valid, and I recommend using his sheet.

As for scorpids, has anyone verified they work with stormstrike? Remember, it's the buffs that are up when you apply the first stack of poison - if it does work with storm strike, you could easily top 600 damage / tick. Pop TBW, AP trinkets, get a shaman to put up stormstrike, stack poison. Tada, massive dot damage. Of course, you may have to refresh it on a new target and save your cooldowns for that, but nonetheless...
#720SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Ladwenae
Hmm.
Rank 5: Pet Level 64 (29 TP). Inflicts 44 Nature damage over 8 sec. Effect can stack up to 5 times on a single target.

What am I missing here, 44 damage over 8 seconds is 5.5 DPS, so a grand total of 220 damage over 8 seconds if 5 stacks on, or 27.5 DPS

I had a scorpid a while back and from what I remember it did the damage the description say and it wasnt improved with pets spell modifiers, might be wrong tho.

And.. I am so annoyed by only having 3 stable slots, I have boar, owl and WS atm and all are loyalty lvl 6 and 70 and I really hate the idea to have to lvl a pet up from 63 ><
#721SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sapa
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post

As for scorpids, has anyone verified they work with stormstrike? Remember, it's the buffs that are up when you apply the first stack of poison - if it does work with storm strike, you could easily top 600 damage / tick. Pop TBW, AP trinkets, get a shaman to put up stormstrike, stack poison. Tada, massive dot damage. Of course, you may have to refresh it on a new target and save your cooldowns for that, but nonetheless...
Will test when i come home. (got some 70 enh shaman hidden away on another acc)

List of stuff to consider:
Stormstrike, Misery, Totem of ???(spellpower one), Nightfall proc (1 prot tank uses it when 1 tank is enough), FI, Sanctity Aura

Anyone got any other idea? Power Infusion (lol)?

Hmmm:
http://www.thottbot.com/s24587 - rank4 40damage/10sec (5ticks)
http://www.thottbot.com/s27060 - rank5 44damage/8sec (4ticks)

Since CD on skill is 4sec, can this mean that scorpid might NOT update poison on 8th second due lag?

0.0 apply poison 1
4.0 miss poison 2
8.0 apply poison 2!

Huh. Definitely must test this.
#722SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
Hmm.
Rank 5: Pet Level 64 (29 TP). Inflicts 44 Nature damage over 8 sec. Effect can stack up to 5 times on a single target.

What am I missing here, 44 damage over 8 seconds is 5.5 DPS, so a grand total of 220 damage over 8 seconds if 5 stacks on, or 27.5 DPS

I had a scorpid a while back and from what I remember it did the damage the description say and it wasnt improved with pets spell modifiers, might be wrong tho.

And.. I am so annoyed by only having 3 stable slots, I have boar, owl and WS atm and all are loyalty lvl 6 and 70 and I really hate the idea to have to lvl a pet up from 63 ><
I assume you are missing the spell dmg from RAP, the 20% extra damage from talents, and the 50% from Beastial Wrath/TBW and the 3% from FI.

EDIT: BTW when I say assuming, I mean it. I am not the math type ;p
#723SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
About pet dps I've been taking my wind serpent to blasted lands every day and testing dps, at PTR and now at live. With spamming KC my wind serpent does around 370-380 dps and this is not sometimes, this is all the time. But it's against a lvl 52 mob and although the crit chance of pet seems to be within the expected limits, dodge/parry/miss doesn't occur a lot. On the other hand the pet is unbuffed.
#724SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Fenrus
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
And.. I am so annoyed by only having 3 stable slots, I have boar, owl and WS atm and all are loyalty lvl 6 and 70 and I really hate the idea to have to lvl a pet up from 63 ><
Not sure if you're specifically talking about leveling a scorpid here, but there are level 69 ones in SMV.

At any rate, I find it hard to fathom how making pets so difficult to level makes the game better in any way. I understand that Blizzard wants you to carefully think about what pet you select, but I've always felt that having to level loyalty is enough of a penalty for getting a new pet. For quite some time Blizzard has been making nebulous comments about "looking into pets" or some such, but it's wearing a little thin.
#725SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
skodder
See my next post

Last edited by skodder : 06/01/07 at 11:14 AM. Reason: quoting was messed
#726SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
skodder
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
Hmm.
Rank 5: Pet Level 64 (29 TP). Inflicts 44 Nature damage over 8 sec. Effect can stack up to 5 times on a single target.

What am I missing here, 44 damage over 8 seconds is 5.5 DPS, so a grand total of 220 damage over 8 seconds if 5 stacks on, or 27.5 DPS

I had a scorpid a while back and from what I remember it did the damage the description say and it wasnt improved with pets spell modifiers, might be wrong tho.

And.. I am so annoyed by only having 3 stable slots, I have boar, owl and WS atm and all are loyalty lvl 6 and 70 and I really hate the idea to have to lvl a pet up from 63 ><
Each apply of poison recieves full bonus of the spelldamage applied from your ranged attack power; meaning one poison will tick for 60-61 dam for me with approx. 1800 RAP

Its pretty easy to get the poison to tick for 300-500 damaged when 5 poisons is applied, depending on Bestial Wrath, trinkets etc.

There's lvl 68-69 scorpions north of the Aldor flight point in Shadowmoon Valley, so leveling shouldnt be that hard.

I was also pretty surprised when I noticed that Scorpid Poison is not a spell as I assumed, but a melee attack. I guess it means a big deal for uptime on bosses (assuming that if it had been a spell it would have a 18% resist rate).

Also I don't think that its able to refresh it self after 8 sec if the poison after 4 sec was missed, so if its missed you'll loose all 5 poisons :S

The lvl 69 scorpions come with rank 5 fire resistance. Wondering if it will keep the 140 fr if you retrain the pet?

Last edited by skodder : 06/01/07 at 11:27 AM.
#727SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sapa
Originally Posted by Fenrus View Post
For quite some time Blizzard has been making nebulous comments about "looking into pets" or some such, but it's wearing a little thin.
Hihi, maybe someone did poke around pets. Scorpid atleast

That being new, im thinking about checking "old" pets again. Gorila TClap, Dragonhawk fire, Serpents spit come in mind and flashes a memory of seeing those things quite some patches or even expansion ago

Blizz has knack to forget to put "candy" in patch notes.

No raid tonight, lots of work to do
#728SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
wtf are you guys saying here that scorps are > cats? That just CAN'T BE!!!!!? Hell, I'd use a ravager if anything but I'm too lazy to level one.
#729SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Bloodwrath
So i went out n grabbed the scorpid... It is possible to get that poison ticking for 600+ for a long time here's what u do (grab a friendly healer for testing)

Have the scorpid autoattack until ferocious inspiration procs
Activate all your attack power cooldowns and bestial wrath
Autocast Scorpid Poison
Gaze in amazement...

635 poison ticks for me with Scorpid kept up for about 30 seconds on a priest til the bugger dodged, Seeing as it is hit or miss rather than resistance based scorpid poison will do large amounts of damage. I havent had a chance to test this with more than one hunter but i believe that two scorpid pets could keep this ticking indefinitely on boss fights. While only one hunter would be accredited the damage at the end of the fight the boost in dps from just that one scorpid poison might be large enough to make it viable. Hotfix incoming

Just a thought: Misery, Totem of Wrath, Stormstrike, Drums of Battle will all amplify the damage from it

Last edited by Bloodwrath : 06/01/07 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Had a thought
#730SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sapa
Originally Posted by Bloodwrath View Post
So i went out n grabbed the scorpid... It is possible to get that poison ticking for 600+ for a long time here's what u do (grab a friendly healer for testing)

Have the scorpid autoattack until ferocious inspiration procs
Activate all your attack power cooldowns and bestial wrath
Autocast Scorpid Poison
Gaze in amazement...

635 poison ticks for me with Scorpid kept up for about 30 seconds on a priest til the bugger dodged, Seeing as it is hit or miss rather than resistance based scorpid poison will do large amounts of damage. I havent had a chance to test this with more than one hunter but i believe that two scorpid pets could keep this ticking indefinitely on boss fights. While only one hunter would be accredited the damage at the end of the fight the boost in dps from just that one scorpid poison might be large enough to make it viable. Hotfix incoming
Did priest dodge 1x or 2x in a row? I can't get to wow atm. But please train scorpid with rank4 and test again if you can
#731SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Reipin Pillage
They are hotfixing Misdirect!?

I told my friend who is survival to try out the scorpid and he had it ticking for, direct quote "yeah, I can get the poison to max out at 250 pretty regularly without hitting any trinkets or anything".

Bloodwrath are you saying that each scorpid does not have their own stack of poison? If there are two scorpid pets they will share the same stack of poison?
#732SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Bloodwrath
Sapa: The priest only dodged that one time but the poison got re-applied after the last tick so any dodge of the poison and its gone - gonna make it pretty difficult to keep stacked on bosses solo which leads me to
Reipin: Yes i believe that's the case from tests back when they first got poison but it was a long time ago please feel free to prove me wrong :P
#733SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Glaurong
Man, they need to find more stuff to keep me busy with at work. I wrote a really simple Java simulator for Scorpid Poison.

Results for a 5.6% miss chance:

Attempted applications:		1000000
Successful applications:	943975
Missed applications:		56025
Stack drop count:		52926
Average stack count:		4.455918
Tics at 5/5 stack:		1582584.0
Time at 5/5 stack:		0.791292
Tics at 4/5 stack:		94180.0
Time at 4/5 stack:		0.04709
Tics at 3/5 stack:		99894.0
Time at 3/5 stack:		0.049947
Tics at 2/5 stack:		105370.0
Time at 2/5 stack:		0.052685
Tics at 1/5 stack:		111774.0
Time at 1/5 stack:		0.055887
Tics at 0/5 stack:		6198.0
Time at 0/5 stack:		0.003099
Results for a 10% miss chance:

Attempted applications:		1000000
Successful applications:	900712
Missed applications:		99288
Stack drop count:		89450
Average stack count:		4.060437
Tics at 5/5 stack:		1303770.0
Time at 5/5 stack:		0.651885
Tics at 4/5 stack:		143084.0
Time at 4/5 stack:		0.071542
Tics at 3/5 stack:		159536.0
Time at 3/5 stack:		0.079768
Tics at 2/5 stack:		177146.0
Time at 2/5 stack:		0.088573
Tics at 1/5 stack:		196788.0
Time at 1/5 stack:		0.098394
Tics at 0/5 stack:		19676.0
Time at 0/5 stack:		0.009838
Results for a 15% miss chance:

Attempted applications:		1000000
Successful applications:	850451
Missed applications:		149549
Stack drop count:		127016
Average stack count:		3.629978
Tics at 5/5 stack:		1023784.0
Time at 5/5 stack:		0.511892
Tics at 4/5 stack:		179854.0
Time at 4/5 stack:		0.089927
Tics at 3/5 stack:		211088.0
Time at 3/5 stack:		0.105544
Tics at 2/5 stack:		248148.0
Time at 2/5 stack:		0.124074
Tics at 1/5 stack:		292060.0
Time at 1/5 stack:		0.14603
Tics at 0/5 stack:		45066.0
Time at 0/5 stack:		0.022533
The source is attached if anyone wants to see what I did.
Attached Files
File Type: txt Test.java.txt (2.6 KB, 21 views)
#734SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Backpain
I would like to thank all those who contributed to this thread. As an avid lurker in these forums, I was intrigued to see Howitzer put up such impressive numbers on Gruul. Upon comparing his gear to a friend of mine, I saw that with a little resocketing and crit - he could approach Howitzer's stats.

So yesterday I set my friend down the path to BM pve dps. Results?

His MM spec on prince 2 nights ago:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=13443,13740

His BM spec last night on nightbane:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...ru&s=2312,2840

Now, its not a fair comparison - next time we kill prince I'll log the fight for a proper comparison. He put out some sick damage on Spite, but the damage multipliers make it hard to compare. Nonetheless, I think its a safe assumption that this respec has bumped his damage up by about ~100 dps. The resident shadow priest even sent him a tell regarding his newfound damage. I can't wait to see what he can do on gruul!

Thanks again!
#735SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Chuu
I am wondering, how much dps do you lose when you are on add duty when you go from a scorpid to a cat? As a BM hunter on Vashj phase 2 I'm always on the brink of falling behind, and losing a lot of pet DPS would defiantly put it over the edge.
#736SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Chuu View Post
I am wondering, how much dps do you lose when you are on add duty when you go from a scorpid to a cat? As a BM hunter on Vashj phase 2 I'm always on the brink of falling behind, and losing a lot of pet DPS would defiantly put it over the edge.
I can't comment specifically about that fight, but there are definitely fights where a scorpid will likely hurt your dps on adds (i.e. Phase 1 Magtheridon would be a poor place to pump up your poison stacks with TBW, etc). At the risk of overgeneralizing, I would say go with a scorpid for fights where you can keep your pet on the main target for long periods of time, even if you yourself have to change targets (for adds or any other purpose).

Another scorpid question: do multiple scorpids share the same stack? I don't see why they wouldn't, but if they do it would definitely aid in keeping a full stack on the target dealing a retarded amount of damage over time. So many questions, so little time to test.
#737SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729aadric
Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
KC is instant and doesnt not start GCD right? If so this one should work:

/cast Kill Command
/stopcasting
/cast Arcane Shot(Rank 9)
This was my understanding but I haven't gotten it to work. I have however been able to macro trinkets in before spells (Lower City Prayer Book -> Flash heal with 1 click). Although now that I give it more thought I haven't checked to make sure this is working since 2.1.
#738SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Goreshot
Originally Posted by Fenrus View Post
Originally Posted by Ladwenae
And.. I am so annoyed by only having 3 stable slots, I have boar, owl and WS atm and all are loyalty lvl 6 and 70 and I really hate the idea to have to lvl a pet up from 63 ><
Not sure if you're specifically talking about leveling a scorpid here, but there are level 69 ones in SMV.

At any rate, I find it hard to fathom how making pets so difficult to level makes the game better in any way. I understand that Blizzard wants you to carefully think about what pet you select, but I've always felt that having to level loyalty is enough of a penalty for getting a new pet. For quite some time Blizzard has been making nebulous comments about "looking into pets" or some such, but it's wearing a little thin.
IIRC the main reason Blizzard doesn't allow more stable slots is because apparently hunter pets take up a significant amount of resources in terms of space. This is why they're so hellbent in finding a way to work around that limitation by giving hunters a chance to tame "temporary" pets or somesuch method to getting new abilities. At least this way we can actually use all three slots, instead of keeping one "free" just to get the new stuff.



PS - It's nice to see you all jumping on the Scorpid bandwagon. Too bad they're probably going to nerf the spelldamage stacking after everyone starts using one. =(
#739SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Ladwenae
So...
I ditched my windserpent since it was bugged anyway, and the highest level of the pets I had if I wanted to get one again and since my last post I have leveled a scorpid to 70 and level 5 loyalty so I had some training points.

Anyway I went to blasted lands and with my gimp RAP of 1738 ( hawk, major agi and 20 agi food included ) and 25.4% crit I was able to keep it on for 6 minutes with 522 ticking.
I didnt use claw since I didnt wanna risk loosing the stacks but with this the scorpid did 480 DPS for the 6 minute duration.

It had cobra reflexes and no buffs on other than spirit bond.

The only real issue I can see is that with raid bosses it will most likely miss so much that its not possible to keep it stacked consistantly, but I guess in certain fights it will do really well even with "only" 300+ / tick.

Edit: I still havent figured WWS out, so sorry for not posting a parse.
#740SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
So...
I ditched my windserpent since it was bugged anyway, and the highest level of the pets I had if I wanted to get one again and since my last post I have leveled a scorpid to 70 and level 5 loyalty so I had some training points.

Anyway I went to blasted lands and with my gimp RAP of 1738 ( hawk, major agi and 20 agi food included ) and 25.4% crit I was able to keep it on for 6 minutes with 522 ticking.
I didnt use claw since I didnt wanna risk loosing the stacks but with this the scorpid did 480 DPS for the 6 minute duration.

It had cobra reflexes and no buffs on other than spirit bond.

The only real issue I can see is that with raid bosses it will most likely miss so much that its not possible to keep it stacked consistantly, but I guess in certain fights it will do really well even with "only" 300+ / tick.

Edit: I still havent figured WWS out, so sorry for not posting a parse.
480 dps seems a lot, which addon did you use to check pet dps?
#741SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Ladwenae
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
480 dps seems a lot, which addon did you use to check pet dps?
SW stats.
Remember its a very low lvl mob, so white DPS is way to high compared to normal on these.
But getting scorpid poison to tick for 600+ seems easy doable if you are raidbuffed and click trinkets and such to get max AP since its the first poison that desides how high the following stacks will be.
#742SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Sienna
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
SW stats.
Remember its a very low lvl mob, so white DPS is way to high compared to normal on these.
But getting scorpid poison to tick for 600+ seems easy doable if you are raidbuffed and click trinkets and such to get max AP since its the first poison that desides how high the following stacks will be.
Yeah I know it's low lvl mob but windserpents on that mob do 380 dps max with my gear at least, 480 seems extremely high. But I'll try it myself tonight.

Edit: I tamed a lvl 69, did 350 dps for 2 minutes, poison ticks for 324. Weird thing is poison doesn't seem to receive the 50% more damage from wrath. For me it ticks for 314 with or without wrath. Is my scorpid bugged?

Last edited by Sienna : 06/01/07 at 9:06 PM.
#743SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729AndrewCarr
I think Ladwenae pointed it out in his post. It seems like the poison's damage is based on what it first ticks for. After that I imagine the only way of changing how much damage it's doing would be to let it wear off and then reapply it.
#744SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Trieste
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Yeah I know it's low lvl mob but windserpents on that mob do 380 dps max with my gear at least, 480 seems extremely high. But I'll try it myself tonight.

Edit: I tamed a lvl 69, did 350 dps for 2 minutes, poison ticks for 324. Weird thing is poison doesn't seem to receive the 50% more damage from wrath. For me it ticks for 314 with or without wrath. Is my scorpid bugged?
It works for me. I had really awsome results tonight in raid (especially on solar). Poison ticks for 604.
#745SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Sienna
Originally Posted by Trieste View Post
It works for me. I had really awsome results tonight in raid (especially on solar). Poison ticks for 604.
I tamed another one, same with this one. Poison damage doesn't increase under wrath. Really weird.

Edit: Like you said the problem is the first tick, if the first tick happens under wrath the rest gets the multiplier. And funnily even after wrath ends, if you ended up with 550 ticks, you continue that way. Weird mechanics really. I wonder how long you can go with 5 stacks on a raidboss though without missing any, actually I might consider getting 2/2 animal handler for this.

Last edited by Sienna : 06/01/07 at 11:14 PM.
#746SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Talyx
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I tamed another one, same with this one. Poison damage doesn't increase under wrath. Really weird.

Edit: Like you said the problem is the first tick, if the first tick happens under wrath the rest gets the multiplier. And funnily even after wrath ends, if you ended up with 550 ticks, you continue that way. Weird mechanics really. I wonder how long you can go with 5 stacks on a raidboss though without missing any, actually I might consider getting 2/2 animal handler for this.
Does animal handler effect the chance of resisting scorpid poison? I was under the impression the poison gets resisted, not missed/dodged/parried.
#747SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Scorpid Poison is applied as a melee attack - it's dodge/parry/miss not resist. It may be possible to resist the DAMAGE from the poison (I'm not sure though), but the application itself uses melee rules.
#748SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I tamed another one, same with this one. Poison damage doesn't increase under wrath. Really weird.

Edit: Like you said the problem is the first tick, if the first tick happens under wrath the rest gets the multiplier. And funnily even after wrath ends, if you ended up with 550 ticks, you continue that way. Weird mechanics really. I wonder how long you can go with 5 stacks on a raidboss though without missing any, actually I might consider getting 2/2 animal handler for this.
My pet with 2/2 Animal Handler had a 13.7% miss rate on Gruul. Just to give you an idea.
#749SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
My pet with 2/2 Animal Handler had a 13.7% miss rate on Gruul. Just to give you an idea.
13.7% miss, or combined miss + parry + dodge?
#750SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Yippy
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
13.7% miss, or combined miss + parry + dodge?
Sounds about right if it's miss + parry + dodge, since just browsing my WWS logs shows about 16-17% miss + parry + dodge (0/2 Animal Handler for me).
#751SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=3quca5s6hydpm&a=38
#752SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Axelrod
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Another scorpid question: do multiple scorpids share the same stack? I don't see why they wouldn't, but if they do it would definitely aid in keeping a full stack on the target dealing a retarded amount of damage over time. So many questions, so little time to test.
Yeah, me and my friend tested this and it's just like old-school mage ignite. Whoever starts the poison stack will be the owner of the poison stack and any other scorpids in the raid will be able to keep refreshing it for the owner. This leads to the question of maxing out damage on raids; at what point will there be too many scorpids to refresh just one poison stack?

And at how scorpids would it be better to just bring another pet to increase overall raid dps since there's only one poison stack? For example, it's nice to keep a 600dmg per tick debuff on, but if you know several hunters (AND THIS IS A VERY HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION) are bringing scorpids to raids already, should I pop out the wind serpent to increase raid dps?

Last edited by Axelrod : 06/02/07 at 9:27 AM.
#753SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Axelrod View Post
Yeah, me and my friend tested this and it's just like old-school mage ignite. Whoever starts the poison stack will be the owner of the poison stack and any other scorpids in the raid will be able to keep refreshing it for the owner. This leads to the question of maxing out damage on raids; at what point will there be too many scorpids to refresh just one poison stack?

And at how scorpids would it be better to just bring another pet to increase overall raid dps since there's only one poison stack? For example, it's nice to keep a 600dmg per tick debuff on, but if you know several hunters (AND THIS IS A VERY HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION) are bringing scorpids to raids already, should I pop out the wind serpent to increase raid dps?
Honestly, based on the numbers I'm seeing, bringing more than 2 scorpids would probably yield less damage that WS or ravagers. Then again, how many raids bring 3-4 hunters these days? Even with 2 scorpids sharing a 600/tick stack, that's 150 dps / scorpid from poison. That's a pretty nice benefit, although it may or may not show up in WWS (there are ownership issues with the stack, as you said).
#754SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729WarrenKTF
Originally Posted by Elvandir View Post
The talon adds 40 damage to each damaging shot. (does this apply to Auto, as it is technically a "damaging shot"). So for 6 sec you do an extra 40 damage per steady (worst case).

40 damage / 0.3 (steady shot scaling factor) = 133.3 RAP
2.0 attack speed (assumed)
6 sec duration
Maximum of 4 steadys
160 extra damage
26.6 DPS increase from steady alone (best case)

More realiticly you are going to get 3 steadys per proc so
120 extra damage
20 DPS boost...

/disclaimer
Rough numbers only, and I'm low on coffee
/enddisclaimer
When I tested the trinket on test server it was NOT affecting auto shot. I used a xbow from the IF vendor with a flat dmg of 20 to test it out. My dmg range with that equipped was only about 1 differnt from low end to high end.
#755SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Originally Posted by WarrenKTF View Post
When I tested the trinket on test server it was NOT affecting auto shot. I used a xbow from the IF vendor with a flat dmg of 20 to test it out. My dmg range with that equipped was only about 1 differnt from low end to high end.
That's disappointing.
#756SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Chaser
If we compare two pairs of boots such as the fiend slayer ones from Karazhan and the T0.5 ones (yes hold on the laughter)...

Fiend slayer :
http://www.thottbot.com/i28746 (26 agi, 34 AP, 2 sockets)

Beastmaster :
http://www.thottbot.com/i22061 (16 agi, 32 AP, 0 sockets)

So let's assume we put in 2X 8 agi gems. The difference in agi and RAP is respectively 26 agi and 28 RAP. Which is roughly 3 DPS correct ?

The beastmaster boots have a 3% damage increase to your pet. If you're a very well geared BM hunter your pet is going to be doing around what 300 DPS ? The 3% increase to pet dmg would then represent 9 DPS more on your pet as opposed to the 3 "personal DPS" increase by going with the fiend slayer ones.

Now obviously the fiend slayer boots have more intellect, hit rating and stamina. But if we assume that we're hit capped, stamina is not an issue and neither is mana, is it possible that the T0.5 vanilla wow boots are better for a BM hunter than the Karazhan ones ?

Common sense is telling me I'm making a mistake, math is telling me something else. I'm doubting my math here, any help ?
#757SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Goreshot
Originally Posted by Chaser View Post
The beastmaster boots have a 3% damage increase to your pet. If you're a very well geared BM hunter your pet is going to be doing around what 300 DPS ? The 3% increase to pet dmg would then represent 9 DPS more on your pet as opposed to the 3 "personal DPS" increase by going with the fiend slayer ones.

...

Common sense is telling me I'm making a mistake, math is telling me something else. I'm doubting my math here, any help ?
I, for one, wouldn't be surprised. Assuming the 3% damage buff is across the board (like the Orc racial), there would be good reason to believe that a BM pet, with sufficient buffs from your other gear, could put that 3% to good use and exceed the extra marginal DPS gained from the difference between the Fiend Slayer and the Beastmaster boots. This is similar to the DPS gain from the 8-piece Giantstalker bonus (+15% Multi-Shot) exceeding the marginal stat increases found in 7/8 Dragonstalker gear, or the 4% Multi-Shot bonus to the PvP gloves pushing it over the top when they revamped all the PvP gear.
#758SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
+26 Agility +28 RAP would give you more than 3DPS, I'm pretty sure.
#759SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Chaser
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
+26 Agility +28 RAP would give you more than 3DPS, I'm pretty sure.
It's 26 agi and 2 AP more.. so 28 RAP total. Not both at the same time. Sorry if I was not clear.
#760SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
Originally Posted by Chaser View Post
It's 26 agi and 2 AP more.. so 28 RAP total. Not both at the same time. Sorry if I was not clear.
In a regular steady rotation that would mean 14 dps pre armor for myself with my gear for example, which you will not easily be getting with 3% more pet damage, and you are passing on the nice to have stam and int, so I'd take the fiend slayer boots
#761SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Fearspect
If two BM hunters are in a single party together will two party buffs appear, or can only one Ferocious Inspiration be active at a time.
#762SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Djinn
Originally Posted by Fearspect View Post
If two BM hunters are in a single party together will two party buffs appear, or can only one Ferocious Inspiration be active at a time.
They stack.
#763SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Trieste
So I tested the scorpid on mag tonight
I did 846 dps, add+mag (on DamageMeter and I was on a cube): Screen here

Do not pay attention to the raid. It's "saturday raid", and lots of our best players are missing.

What is really interesting is the damage of my pet. It did 270K dmg of my 724K dmg (99% on mag himself): screen here

I used rank 4 and not rank 5 (10 sec duration and almost same damage) and I managed to keep the dot under TBW all the fight long (~550 dmg /2sec)

It's pretty amazing!

Last edited by Trieste : 06/02/07 at 8:15 PM.
#764SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Howitzer
Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
They stack.
Indeed they do. I been trying to convince our other hunter to go BM, but sadly, he is really stuck on Marks. =(
#765SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Djinn
blue verifies Talon of Al'ar only works for specials
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...08301954&sid=1
#766SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
Next Morogrim damage meter will look rather interesting for our guild I predict.
#767SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Trieste
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Next Morogrim damage meter will look rather interesting for our guild I predict.
you're going to use a scorpid? lol
#768SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Osse
I have something in my mind that has something to do with that pet, yes.






































Last edited by Osse : 06/02/07 at 9:24 PM.
#769SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Xon
Since it was suggested previously in the thread, I looked into rank 4

Rank 4 base damage is 40 damage over 10 seconds
Rank 5 base is 44 over 8 seconds

My best observations are that Rank 5 cannot be reapplied if it suffers a first miss. Rank 4 on the other hand, can be reapplied incase of an initial miss. While I did notice a significant drop in stack DPS, if we are going sustained TBW stacks, assuming a 12% mob miss/dodge/parry, rank 5 has a 88% chance to be reapplied while rank 4 has a 98.5% chance to be reapped.
#770SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
http://thottbot.com/s34954
#771SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I don't see how that would make it be used more often.
4 second cooldown on skill.
#772SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
Thats true.

How can a poison be dodged or parried though?
#773SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
It's applied as a melee attack, not a spell, it seems; resulting in parry & dodge being possible, not resist.
#774SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Goreshot
Originally Posted by Osse View Post

NOOOOOOOOOB


Sorry, couldn't resist. =P

As for the difference in time for the ranks, I noticed this a while ago when I first started testing out Scorpids as viable raid pets. Does someone want to do the testing to see exactly how the longer timer affects the DPS of the ability, especially concerning full stacks? Rank 5 gets 4 ticks over 8 seconds to do 44 base damage, while Rank 4 takes 5 ticks to do 40 damage over 10. It seems like a "4 damage" difference, but it is actually a difference of 3 damage per tick, along with whatever else Blizzard has decided to do concerning the conversion of spelldamage->Scorpid Poison.

If we find out that the only difference is the length of time and 3 damage per tick per stack, I forsee a Blizzard nerf to "downranking" pet skills sometime in the future, because the 10-second stack will be much, much better for long-term Scorpid DPS>
#775SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
Guess I'll have to dismiss my grinding owl for a stupid level 56 scorpid then. -.-

Will test how big damage difference it is later today.
#776SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Trieste
As I said, I used rank 4 and not rank 5 because with rank 5 one dogde/miss/parry and it's over, you have to start again from the beginning.

I did about 550 dmg /2sec with rank 4 without any flask or elixir.(only typical raid buffs) With rank 5 I was doing 605 dmg/2sec with an ap flask (and raid buffs).

But with rank 4, I was able to keep the dot all the fight long (~9 min) => 140k dmg only with the dot.
#777SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Kenoki
It seems that you will just need to dismiss your existing pet to tame a new one and train rank 4 Osse.

There is a bug since 2.1 that allows you to tame a pet even if you already have one it seems.

Source: http://petopia.wordpress.com/2007/05...ug-or-feature/
#778SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
A fellow guildie played around with that.
Result: Stable completely messed up, unable to swap pets. ~1 week of escalated ticket and counting.
Use with caution, is my advice.
#779SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Kluena
Gear?

First off, Hello!

I'm new to this whole BM as great raid dps thing, but I've been reading (a lot) and no one ever seems to mention the gear aspect.

How much gear do you need for the BM spec to be viable?

My guild is currently in Gruuls (King Down), and we have 3+ Kara groups (2 full clear, 3rd is working on Curator, I'm in the 3rd)

My gear is all blues (except for a couple items) and i still outdamage the hunters in groups 1 and 2 (group 1 hunter is SV for EW, but our 25 mans aren't very melee heavy, Group 2 hunter is MM with all the wrong points, barrage, imp. barrage)

As it is, I'm MM, and normally get #6-7 in DPS in Gruuls, and I was wondering, would it be worth it to respec BM for Kara and Gruuls? (and beyond?)

Also, what would I want in gear? AGI? INT? AP? CRIT?

Also, What pet do you all prefer?
#780SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Lysander1
I just used the Tame Beast bug/feature to give my level 70 Scorpid Rank 4 Scorpid Poison without dropping a pet. I like my grinding owl specced for NR (air elementals) and a Bread Serpent for farm content is valuable to me as well. Nothing screwed up. Here is the process I used.

1) Bring out pet that you would least mind losing.
2) Take Shatt portal to SW.
3) Fly to Burning Steppes.
4) Find Scorpid with Rank 4 (interestingly, some of the ones near Marshall's Refuge have level 5 but the higher level ones have level 4 o.0)
5) Dismiss pet (not abandon)
6) Tame Scorpid.
7) Kill a mob, learn Scorpid Poison.
8) Right click -> Abandon Scorpid.
9) Hearth back to Shatt.
10) Switch between all your pets a few times. All pets should be available.

I know thats more steps than I need to explain, but the above process worked for me without any stable bug as Lactose described. And now I am the proud owner of a level 70 Scorpid with Rank 4 Scorpid Poison.

I hope it works out for anyone who tries this .
#781SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
I'll try that, and if it fails I'll only have to kill you. :P
#782SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Odeanathus
Hello there!

I've been roaming these boards reading all your theories and what not, Im not that much of a math genius myself but still enjoy reading/knowing the things debated on these boards.

I just now got myself rank4 scorpid poison since i have to agree it seems like the smart choice. The thing i wonder though.. is there an addon or something that allows you to manage pet skills? meaning.. that i can "safe" 30 focus for my scorpid poinson but i can still burn the rest (in case of a couple of crits etc etc) with Claw? Or is the focus regen so high that no matter what if i keep claw & poison on autocast it will use both and not get any delays on the poison (since it would be a waste to lose a good poison stack)

How would you deal with this issue?
#783SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Odeanathus
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I'll try that, and if it fails I'll only have to kill you. :P
I just did it aswell.. worked perfectly for me atleast ^^
#784SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Osse
Worked for me as well.

Selfbuffed (no consumables) tests say that the damage difference is 16.85%.

Last edited by Osse : 06/03/07 at 7:52 AM.
#785SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Lysander1
Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
is there an addon or something that allows you to manage pet skills? meaning.. that i can "safe" 30 focus for my scorpid poinson but i can still burn the rest (in case of a couple of crits etc etc) with Claw?
Depending on your critrate, you may not need any sort of management. However, my solution (because my crit is rather low) is to set Claw to manual cast and Scorpid Poison to autocast. Then I put /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Scorpid Poison and /cast [target=pettarget,exists] Claw to my castsequence spammy macro so that Scorpid Poison came first. Therefore I have 2 ways to ensure that if I have 30-55 Focus, Scorpid Poison will be cast, but if I have 25-30 Focus Claw will be cast, and 55+ Focus will cast both .

My initial analysis is that this Scorpid really pumps out some really nice numbers. Of course, my gear isn't so great, but on Blasted Lands unkillable mobs I was seeing around 500 pet dps and 475 Scorpid Poison ticks when the initial tick coming from TBW and Lust for Battle on. (That number was with me attacking the mob as well to contribute to GFFT focus gen)

I'd love to see what kind of dps numbers Osse sees from Scorpids on Blasted Lands unkillable mobs..

[EDIT] @ Osse's edit: Is that 16% in favor of the Serpent or the Scorpid? Or do you mean 16% gain from Rank 5 Scorpid? And how is it parsed (Blasted Lands unkillables will naturally have a much higher reapplication rate for Rank 5 even with the "1 miss and you're out" thing, so the 10 sec duration on Rank 4 may not be as significant against them.)
#786SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
Therefore I have 2 ways to ensure that if I have 30-55 Focus, Scorpid Poison will be cast, but if I have 25-30 Focus Claw will be cast, and 55+ Focus will cast both .
I thought the pet's global cooldown prevented you from activating 2 pet skills simultaneously?
#787SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Lysander1
You're right Lactose, I didn't think about that. Regardless, because Scorpid Poison has a cooldown (more than global), Claw will fire as soon as it can after Scorpid Poison, because I'm spamming the macro. Also the advantage of not just toggling Claw/Poison both on autocast is that if you have to stop DPS, your poison charges won't drop. You'll lose some Claw dps if you stop your own attacks, though.
#788SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Osse
Bah, you tricked me into it now. Of course I had to do a WWS yesterday so here it is, rather short one but crit rates are what they are supposed to be. (in total)

Had BoM to get the scorpid poison up, then I clicked the buff off. Highest I get unbuffed with rank 5 is 617.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=b4ej3ctsuapow&a=50

I'll make a little movie in Blasted Lands today with the group buffs I manage to get, wont release it before they nerf that pet.

I'll see if I can get that claw macro to work....

Last edited by Osse : 06/03/07 at 9:36 AM. Reason: :|
#789SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Trieste
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I thought the pet's global cooldown prevented you from activating 2 pet skills simultaneously?
There's a global cooldown and that's very annoying when you have the poison and claw on autocast. Sometimes he decides to do claw over poison and it's a problem to keep the poison up even with rank because you loose the cooldown.

On Mag, I put claw on manual to be sure.

For me scorpid is really amazing against static target like mag or morogrim, but I prefer my windserpent on fight like vashj or leotheras...
#790SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Odeanathus
well how high would your crit rating need to be in order for you to safely be able to keep both on autocast?

Last edited by Odeanathus : 06/03/07 at 8:35 AM.
#791SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Trieste
Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
well how high would your crit rating need to be in order for you to safely be able to keep both on autocast?
I think there's no answer!
Because if the scorpid uses claw over poison (Or use it 0,1 before poison is up), it triggers the global cooldown, and you will have only one chance and not two with rank 4 to apply the poison.
#792SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Lysander1
There really ought to be a way to set priority for pet skills so that, for example, the pet would use Scorpid Poison over Claw whenever both were available. Ah well.. we can put that with a "Pet Move to Location" command on the wanted list.
#793SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
up the scorpid poison, then I clicked it off. Highest I get unbuffed with rank 5 is 617.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=b4ej3ctsuapow&a=50
eeeew!
#794SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
Lets not edit words out of that sentence.
#795SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Bloodwrath
Sorry if this has been covered before - But mark of conquest does it have a built in cooldown like some rumours would have me believe and how is the proc rate i could really use the mana regen on this over the longer fights as my wallet will not support fel mana potions forever
#796SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Lysander1
Some Hunters have parsed it to be approx. 30-35 mana per 5. A pretty good deal for a trinket spot that also gives some attack power on it. I use it for the longer fights, but of course nothing truly replaces sucking pots.. But gaining gold during a raid while your main tank complains of being down 100 gold sure is nice >.>;;.
#797SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Daenerys
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Worked for me as well.

Selfbuffed (no consumables) tests say that the damage difference is 16.85%.
Rank 4 is 16% better?
#798SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729BigBlue
What is the dps (approximate) of claw if it goes off every global cool down except 1 every 4 sec (CD for poison)? What I am wondering is it even worth having claw on and risking scorpid poison dropping? I really dont see myself manually casting claw, way too many other things to do as it is.
Sorry for the newbie question but, does scorpid poison tick once per second or how often?
#799SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Odeanathus
Me and Cheddar (a hunter guildy) did some tests... here is what we found out...

They stack!!!!

Rank 4 and Rank 5 can be applied to the same mob at the same time. Meaning, the BM hunter should run with rank 4 giving him a 14% * 14% chance to get 2 dodges in a row (if i've got my numbers right).

And the MM/SU hunter would probebly have to use rank 3 to be able to keep his up for most of the fight...

I believe MM/SU pets have 18% miss in total right? (dodge etc included) meaning they'd have 18%*18% chance to get dual dodge...

If i got it right.. the BM hunter get his stack removed roughly every 200 seconds (on avarage!!!! dont shoot me lactose :P) and the MM/SU hunter every 100 seconds.

I might get those numbers wrong though.. so if some theorycraft genius could look at them.. be my guest...

This beeing said.. we are looking at Rank 3 now.. to see if that gets a different spelldamage bonus compared to rank 4.. Ill edit that into my post when we know more.

EDIT: Rank3 lost about 12 damage per tick compared to Rank 4. I'd say use rank 4 on the BM hunter in your raid (or one of the) and rank 3 on the other Hunter(s) And rank down accoordingly.

Last edited by Odeanathus : 06/03/07 at 2:50 PM.
#800SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
There really ought to be a way to set priority for pet skills so that, for example, the pet would use Scorpid Poison over Claw whenever both were available. Ah well.. we can put that with a "Pet Move to Location" command on the wanted list.
This can be done. Simply train your pet's skills in a very specific order; it prioritizes from left to right across the action bar. On my cat, I trained Growl-Bite-Claw-Dash, so Bite takes priority over claw when I have enough focus for bite and it's available (not on cd). Simply train Growl-Poison-Claw-Whatever and you'll be set.

It's also not hard to determine how much focus you need to spam poison / claw. You can easily calculate your focus/second for abilities; claw uses 25 focus every 1.5 seconds, so it's 16.67 FPS and Poison would be 30 focus every 4 seconds, so 7.5 FPS. Pets naturally regen 24.5 focus per 4 seconds, so 6.125 FPS. 2/2 Bestial Discipline adds another 6.125 FPS. Quick accounting shows that to spam claw and poison you'll need another 16.67+7.5-6.125-6.125=11.92 focus per second. Lets see to what crit rate this adds up.

11.92 focus is 0.238 times a 2/2 GFTT proc. The reciprocal of this is ~4.2, so that's 1 crit every 4.2 seconds. Assuming you're using a 2.9 speed bow, your attack speed should be 2.10; assuming you're doing 1 special/auto, this halves the attack speed to 1.05. 1.05 attack speed means 0.95 shots per second. Ok, we have all the info now. Quick dimensional analysis says we do crits per second / shots per second = crits / shots, or the crit rate.

1/(4.2*0.95)=0.25025=25%

IF you have 2/2 BD and 2/2 GFTT and are using a 2.9 speed bow with 5/5 SS and a quiver THEN you need a 25% chance to crit is required to be able to spam both claw and poison, statistically speaking. It's entirely possible to get a crit or no crit streak that disrupts this, but critical strikes are a Poisson distribution, so over a large enough sample this math is accurate. Anyway, hope this helps.
#801SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Ellurion
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Bah, you tricked me into it now. Of course I had to do a WWS yesterday so here it is, rather short one but crit rates are what they are supposed to be. (in total)

Had BoM to get the scorpid poison up, then I clicked the buff off. Highest I get unbuffed with rank 5 is 617.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=b4ej3ctsuapow&a=50

I'll make a little movie in Blasted Lands today with the group buffs I manage to get, wont release it before they nerf that pet.

I'll see if I can get that claw macro to work....
Osse please make wws log with your scorp on the next Magtheridon.
#802SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729BigBlue
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
This can be done. Simply train your pet's skills in a very specific order; it prioritizes from left to right across the action bar. On my cat, I trained Growl-Bite-Claw-Dash, so Bite takes priority over claw when I have enough focus for bite and it's available (not on cd). Simply train Growl-Poison-Claw-Whatever and you'll be set.
You can move the skills on the bar. Does this change the priority or no?
#803SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
I have no idea. I just know that training order in skills supposedly has an effect on priority - check Cheeky's sheet for more info. Likewise, using this practice (training order) has worked well for me with my cat. Easy way to check this: send in a pet with full focus and see which ability gets used first. Heck, do this dozens and times, it should be very easy to test.
#804SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Osse
Originally Posted by Ellurion View Post
Osse please make wws log with your scorp on the next Magtheridon.
If they havent nerfed the pet before next Morogrim I will, and Mag too. :p

Shame we dont have a stormstrike in raid atm though. :|

ps. 1281 dps on Gruul and then maintank died at 25% and couldnt use pet once all the melee had died. -.-

Pet got cave in 4 times as well so scorpid poison wasnt ticking for huge amounts all the time.

Last edited by Osse : 06/03/07 at 5:25 PM.
#805SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Cheeky
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I have no idea. I just know that training order in skills supposedly has an effect on priority - check Cheeky's sheet for more info. Likewise, using this practice (training order) has worked well for me with my cat. Easy way to check this: send in a pet with full focus and see which ability gets used first. Heck, do this dozens and times, it should be very easy to test.
Changing them on the bar does change the priority. It's pretty easy to test too.

I'm trying to work through the math behind Scorpid Poison now, it's probably more statistics than I know, unfortunately.
#806SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Talyx
I had a chance to group test with an enhance shaman. It seems stormstrike has no effect whatsoever, and it didn't take any charges from the stormstrike debuff (probably because it's a melee attack and not a spell). Although surprisingly, totem of wrath increases scorpid poison damage by a significant amount. Don't have logs though
#807SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Sienna
Originally Posted by Talyx View Post
I had a chance to group test with an enhance shaman. It seems stormstrike has no effect whatsoever, and it didn't take any charges from the stormstrike debuff (probably because it's a melee attack and not a spell). Although surprisingly, totem of wrath increases scorpid poison damage by a significant amount. Don't have logs though
It's weird since it doesn't increase lightning breath as far as I've seen.
#808SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Shaile
most likely because they nerf pet abilities on the go. first LB when WS was a valid alternative and i guess when blizzard finally reads this they will make sure scorpids ain't gonna be a valid alternative.
#809SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 Lactose
Originally Posted by Talyx View Post
I had a chance to group test with an enhance shaman. It seems stormstrike has no effect whatsoever, and it didn't take any charges from the stormstrike debuff (probably because it's a melee attack and not a spell). Although surprisingly, totem of wrath increases scorpid poison damage by a significant amount. Don't have logs though
Just to be certain, was Stormstrike on the mob at the time of applying the stack, or was Stormstrike applied when the stack was already on the target?
#810SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729 zepi
One question, Assuming 0ms ping, Weapon Speed of 2.9 and 15% quiver, so that Autoshot speed ought to be 2.52, right?

Just if I'll just auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady, I'll have 1.02seconds after the autoshot releases to start steady shot and not to clip my autoshot?

If I do auto-steady-instant(arcane/multi)-auto, is there any way for not to clip? I've undestood that it'd work in a following way:
0.00:00 Autoshot launches
0.00:01 Start Casting steady
0.01:51 Steady ready and launches
0.01.52 Arcane shot launches
0.03.02 Autoshot 2 launces

Am I right here? If so, is there any reason to spam shots like this, except in maybe in most extreme burning situations where mana is not an issue (likely almost never). We are talking about ~0.5s auto-shot damage loss over the course of 3 seconds just to get another very expensive instant-shot, and this is assuming 0ms lag and flawless robot doing the rotation.
#811SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Spiry
Arcane shot would only trigger a 0.5 second cooldown on auto shot, and the auto would fire during the 1.5 second GCD, thus:

0.00:00 Autoshot launches
0.00:01 Start Casting steady
0.01:51 Steady ready and launches
0.01.52 Arcane shot launches
0.02.52 Autoshot 2 launces <- autoshot has cooled down and fired
0.03.02 <insert next special here>

Last edited by Spiry : 06/03/07 at 10:48 PM. Reason: logic at 3:40am ftl
#812SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
The problem with doing this is that the GCD from your second instant will carry into the next intra-auto shot window, delaying your next steady (and potentially the following auto shot). Check the haste thread for more info.

[Hunter] Haste Itemization and Ideal Bowspeed
#813SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Female Tauren
So everyone uses KC before arcane/multi?
I actually use it after, because it always seem to delay my specials a bit and I get GCD delaying my next shot after the auto.

auto > special > KC > auto for me.
#814SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Mech0z
Putting Scorpid poisen in the left side of my bar does not always make it be the frist spell used by my pet. So it seems very random also I havent unlearned its spells so it should be the first skill it have
#815SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Ok so...assuming I am using a scorpid, and it attacks something and gets poison stacked to 5.

If i pop TBW/Trinkets and it lands another poison hit, does the stacks damage go up to that new modified number?

Or do I have to pop TBW/Trinkets BEFORE it starts a stack?
#816SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
 Lactose
Before you start. The +damage stuff is calculated when applied, not updated later on. This is exactly why Scorpid Poison is so lethal, you can have the trinket boost + TBW active, then activate it and keep these boost throughout the fight.

Last edited by Lactose : 06/04/07 at 8:31 AM. Reason: Forgot half the sentence while posting.
#817SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
Yeah I was hoping it would only go up and not down.

Crud, means I have to carry another trinket around with me too.
#818SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Equalizer View Post
Yeah I was hoping it would only go up and not down.

Crud, means I have to carry another trinket around with me too.
I'm unclear why you would need another trinket, perhaps I'm misreading you. You could just carry an hourglass and a bloodlust brooch, wait for hourglass to proc, then pop TBW and Bloodlust and apply scorpid - that's a 570 AP boost and a 50% damage boost. Those three would provide a monster scorpid stack (even more if Misery is on the target and you have FI up).
#819SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Trieste
Scorpid poison works like the previous ignite!
#820SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Trieste View Post
Scorpid poison works like the previous ignite!
Yes, that seem like a pretty good comparison. Scorpid poison rolls now.

Other thoughts: has anyone had any luck comparing R4 poison to R5? Seems like the extra 2 seconds might be nice for reapplication, but I'm uncertain about it's value. Given that SP has a 4 second cooldown, you should already be getting 2 chances in an 8 second duration to refresh it; likewise, 2 additional seconds won't give you enough time for a third chance. Is the perceived benefit to reapplication related to pet GCD issues? I could see having a GCD at the wrong time cost you the second attempt to reapply; in this situation the extra 2 seconds may be enough to keep the stack alive. The lost damage from R5 to R4 seems minimal, so testing R4 for longevity seems to have real merit.
#821SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Equalizer
I use a Dragonspine Trophy and Hourglass at the moment. So I'd be carrying a 3rd trinket due to that.

As for keeping the stack alive using R4. So far it seems like even though it has a 4 second cooldown it doesn't always hit on time to refresh on that second try.
#822SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Zurgat
Sounds pretty OP, i wonder how long we'll be able to abuse this before blizzard decides to nerf it.
#823SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
It's only OP on tank & spank fights without dps stops. I did 150 dps less on Karathress with scorpid, using same group buffs as before for instance.

Think I'll take ravager for Leo tonight as well.
#824SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
It's only OP on tank & spank fights without dps stops. I did 150 dps less on Karathress with scorpid, using same group buffs as before for instance.

Think I'll take ravager for Leo tonight as well.
How do you use your pet on Leo? I was in my first Leo fight yesterday and I find it quite difficult to manage it perfecty. I suppose I could have had it at my side until he goes into deamon form and then go full dps, but I always tried to use it in between as well and pulling it out before whirlwind. Sadly that mostly resulted in the pet getting the debuff and quickly going down early in the fight without a chance to heal it with mend pet.
And being a BM without a pet makes you look really dumb on the meters, no need to explain that...

And Lactose:
Sadly adding /cast LB to my marco doesnt seem to keep my serpent in melee range. It still either gets out of it sometimes, or sometimes even still does the first 2 casts from range before it goes into melee. I tried to put the LB cast in front of the KC/cast sequence or after it, same result.
Whenever it stays out of melee range I cant cast KC, which then doesnt let me shoot. I need 2 or 3 seconds to realize that I am not shooting while mashing the button, then I quickly mash the "castsequence only" macro and after only one turn of steady/auto I can return to the LB/KC/castsequence macro, which them seems to be out of the loop again and keeps working, even if I see the serpent back out again some times.

Really strange, there seems to be some kind of lock when I cant get the KC out in certain situations.

Of course I could also go for the scorpid now, but I guess I'll pass on this soon to be nerfed fun...
#825SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
Pull it out of melee a bit earlier than melee ( watch timers :p ) and use it to stun inner demon, and let it attack the demon for a few times and just finish it off by yourself.

Demon form is easy dps for pet, yeah.

Just cant whore dps at all in that fight, pet wise at least. :|
#826SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Breakerone
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Pull it out of melee a bit earlier than melee ( watch timers :p ) and use it to stun inner demon, and let it attack the demon for a few times and just finish it off by yourself.

Demon form is easy dps for pet, yeah.

Just cant whore dps at all in that fight, pet wise at least. :|
FD has no effect on your inner demon, I guess? I didnt have one yet, so just like to know, but I guess it would be to easy if it does...
#827SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Osse
Never had to fd, always killed it so fast because of intimidation and arcane vulnerability. :p
#828SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Sapa
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Yes, that seem like a pretty good comparison. Scorpid poison rolls now.

Other thoughts: has anyone had any luck comparing R4 poison to R5? Seems like the extra 2 seconds might be nice for reapplication, but I'm uncertain about it's value. Given that SP has a 4 second cooldown, you should already be getting 2 chances in an 8 second duration to refresh it; likewise, 2 additional seconds won't give you enough time for a third chance. Is the perceived benefit to reapplication related to pet GCD issues? I could see having a GCD at the wrong time cost you the second attempt to reapply; in this situation the extra 2 seconds may be enough to keep the stack alive. The lost damage from R5 to R4 seems minimal, so testing R4 for longevity seems to have real merit.
Actually you only get 1 chance with rank5.
And 2 chances with rank4.

Someone posted % bit back, there is 98%? chance to keep r4 up.

To give you idea: With rank5 second reapply is too slow.

0second - 1st apply - hit
4th second - 2nd apply / miss or dodge
8th second - 3rd apply - hit, but stack was just lost (blame server lag

Last edited by Sapa : 06/04/07 at 11:36 AM.
#829SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
Actually you only get 1 chance with rank5.
And 2 chances with rank4.

Someone posted % bit back, there is 98%? chance to keep r4 up.

To give you idea: With rank5 second reapply is too slow.

0second - 1st apply - hit
4th second - 2nd apply / miss or dodge
8th second - 3rd apply - hit, but stack was just lost (blame server lag
Ah ok, that makes a lot of sense to me. I hadn't accounted for server side latency, which could (would?) result in lost stacks with R5. Guess I'll have to go get R4 now... at least the pet tame bug still works, so I don't have to drop a pet to get a second scorpid.
#830SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.0.6729
Mech0z
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Ah ok, that makes a lot of sense to me. I hadn't accounted for server side latency, which could (would?) result in lost stacks with R5. Guess I'll have to go get R4 now... at least the pet tame bug still works, so I don't have to drop a pet to get a second scorpid.
Also there dont seem to be a way to make it prioritize poisen over claw.. so unless Iam on a boss I dont have enough energi to use both and therefore claw is used mostly. Probobly because I dont have bestial disipline

Also think I misread something but if we are 2 having this poison thing running, then only one gets the damage? No way to get both to do damage I suppose?

Last edited by Mech0z : 06/04/07 at 3:30 PM.
#831SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Odeanathus
2 different ranks..

Rank3 and Rank4 for example.. if both use the same only 1 gets the damage.
#832SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Mech0z
Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
2 different ranks..

Rank3 and Rank4 for example.. if both use the same only 1 gets the damage.
Year but thought the point was that you where sure to keep it up and both do good damage by being 2 hunters

Last edited by Mech0z : 06/15/07 at 12:08 PM.
#833SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Serpica
It doesn't seem like it would be practical to wait for my Hourglass to proc to pop trinkets and then apply my Scorpid poison, although if I could get it to work it would be ideal.
#834SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Odeanathus
get a use trinket.. and just use that then switch out... :P dont wait for a proc..

And yes Mech.. a BM hunter should on avarage be able to keep his/her stack running for over 200seconds...

A MM/SU hunter for over 100 seconds..

(if my math was right)

@ 200 seconds.. even if it gets knocked of i'd have NP reapplying it with Wrath etc etc...

and with this in mind... 2 hunters with diferent ranks would outweigh 1 hunter giving up stacks completly to keep 1 running.
#835SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Blyx
Isnt the biggest issue with scorpid poison is that its not that great against a large number of bosses? Hydross is immune to poison, Karathress you switch targets often, Leotheras you have to pull your pet out of WW or itll die, Lurker is almost impossible to use a pet with, not to mention u have to switch targets there too. Vashj is all about phase 2, where you have to switch targets incredibly fast. So i guess Morogrim is the only boss in SSC where its ideal to use Scorpid poison for dpsing right?

I guess TK is a bit better. Al'ar phase 1 isn't good cuz you cant keep ur pet on the platform (if your on adds, your switching targets a lot), but phase 2 seems fine. If you can keep ur pet up, Void Reaver would be halfway decent. Solarian dissapears every 45 seconds, not to mention adds to switch targets to.

See what im saying? While the potential is there, for me it seems like the only decent fights for such a strategy would be Morogrim, Magtheridon and Void Reaver. You talk about keeping the dot up for 200+ seconds, and that never going to happen on the majority of bosses currently out there.
#836SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Odeanathus
yepz i've thought about that aswell, and basically ill changs pets accoordingly for eachnight... For instance.. my guild has a bigger problem with morogrim then with Karth.. so Scrop there..

Vashj how ever, i'd got Ravager.. since yes.. target switching + scropid sting dont work well..

Eitherway.. depending on the fight.. Scorp and Ravager would be what i'd be swithcing around currently.
#837SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Cheeky
Originally Posted by Blyx View Post
Isnt the biggest issue with scorpid poison is that its not that great against a large number of bosses? Hydross is immune to poison, Karathress you switch targets often, Leotheras you have to pull your pet out of WW or itll die, Lurker is almost impossible to use a pet with, not to mention u have to switch targets there too. Vashj is all about phase 2, where you have to switch targets incredibly fast. So i guess Morogrim is the only boss in SSC where its ideal to use Scorpid poison for dpsing right?

I guess TK is a bit better. Al'ar phase 1 isn't good cuz you cant keep ur pet on the platform (if your on adds, your switching targets a lot), but phase 2 seems fine. If you can keep ur pet up, Void Reaver would be halfway decent. Solarian dissapears every 45 seconds, not to mention adds to switch targets to.

See what im saying? While the potential is there, for me it seems like the only decent fights for such a strategy would be Morogrim, Magtheridon and Void Reaver. You talk about keeping the dot up for 200+ seconds, and that never going to happen on the majority of bosses currently out there.
It comes down to how quickly you can get to 5 stacks, and if you can co-ordinate to get the uber-stack up.

Basically there are 3 things that could happen for every level of stack from 0-4:
1 - No refreshes, and you go to 0 stacks.
2 - Hit on first reapply attempt and move up 1 stack.
3 - Hit on second reapply attempt and move up 1 stack.

Each of those has a definite probability. You can average them to see how long it takes to move up 1 stack, and you know your ratio of loosing all the stacks and having to start over. 5 times the duration to move up is how long it takes, on average, to achieve 5 stacks.

Let's say you have a 90% chance to reapply (about right for a BM hunter with 2/2 Animal Handler).

1 - 10 seconds at current DPS, then 0 - 1% chance of happening.
2 - 4 seconds at current DPS, then move up - 90% chance of happening.
3 - 8 seconds at current DPS, then move up - 9% chance of happening.

Average time to move up is ~4.3 seconds. So you can extrapolate the "average" time to achieve 5 stacks is about 21.5 seconds. Now, your chance to get there is the probability you don't get 2 misses in a row out of the number required to get to 5 stacks (maximum 10 attempts.)

Chance to get to 1 stack - 99%
Chance to get to 2 stacks - 98.01%
Chance to get to 3 stacks - 97.03%
Chance to get to 4 stacks - 96.06%
Chance to get to 5 stacks - 95.10%

Once you get to 5 stacks the only thing that will knock you back to 0 is 2 consecutive misses. This only happens 1% of the time, so we can assume "on average" it will happen once every 100 (1/.01) time, or every 400 seconds.

Of course, now I need to finish this work and figure out what percentage of time is spent in each size stack. If I wasn't so damned busy at work this week I'm sure I could get to it. Maybe someone here will grab this start and finish it.

Once we have those numbers, we can readjust them to account for a maximum amount of time in 5 stacks based on how long the pet can DPS the target. With the example above, anything over 421.5 seconds is negligable. Anything less than 421.5 and greater than 21.5 impacts the amount of time spent in 5 stacks. Once we have to DPS in bursts less than 21.5 seconds we maximize at just 4 or less stacks.
#838SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Trohck
Originally Posted by Blyx View Post
Isnt the biggest issue with scorpid poison is that its not that great against a large number of bosses?
Yes, I think it's situational. Any boss where you're forced to switch DPS targets frequently you'll lose DPS due to lack of stacks as well as lack of Dash (not trainable by scorpids!). If you want consistency you pretty much have to go with the Ravager. If you want better DPS in certain fights, Wind Serpent, and if you want the best DPS in some fights, Scorpid.

Of the bosses I've done, Scorpid is bad for:
Void Reaver (immune)
Hydross (immune)
A'lar (dash probably wins)

Everything else you can make a case for. One important thing to note is that you can send your pet on a different target than you if that will increase its longevity. On fights like Vashj and A'lar you can send the scorpid on a target that's going to be alive or in-place longer.
Vashj (depends on your role)
Karathress (stay on one target long enough that it's probably worth it)
Magtheridon+Gruul+Lurker (obviously good)
Lurker+Maulgar (pet is not great anyway so what does it matter)
#839SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Qivi
Just specced BM and had a scorpid along for Morogrim which our guild just started on. In the beginning of the fight I put Claw on auto till Hourglass procced and then activated Bloodlust Brooch along with Bestial Wrath, switched off Claw and put on auto Scorpid Poison. Voila!



On the different atttemps the dot could varry abit depending on my timing. Mostly it was on 620ish. This was with rank 4 of the spell.
#840SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Alidien
I will apologize for the lack of raw data here, I just wanted to come with some input. I just went and tamed a scorpid in SMV so it was lvl 69 and had rank 5 poison. It was our offday today so I tested it in Karazhan. I am 40/21/0 BM spec. (I specced surv right after the raid cause I wanna test it tomorrow in SSC, so my armory might have updated already)

Group setup was Warrior, Feral Druid, Rogue, Enhancement Shaman and me. ( This is also what I usually have in 25 mans, except the warrior might not be there)

The first inital tests I kinda got the timing a bit wrong, and it was the shade so I had to pull my pet out for Arcane Explosions. Then we went for Illhoof.

I waited for the first Hourglass proc, hit Bloodlust Brooch and TBW and applied the poison. After some seconds I start seeing scorpid poison ticks for 937 on Illhoof. I couldn't really believe that cause my gear is average and I never got it above 620 before that. SWStats showed me doing 1550 DPS that fight which just seemed insane. The only time I used Multishot was the initial shot when someone were in Demon Chains.

Then I started to wonder if Unleashed Rage would affect this, or Battleshout for that matter. I thought it was the hunters AP who benefit the pets spell damage and not any extra buffs the pet might get on its melee AP?
#841SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729The Iron Colonel
As far as I can tell from my testing, only hunter RAP scales pet spell damage. Consequently, I wouldn't expect UR or Battleshout to have an effect on spell damage (although they would help increase the damage on claw, etc). Given that Illhoof is a vulnerability fight, did you happen to apply the first application after Kil'rek died? That might explain the massive damage boost you appear to be getting.
#842SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Cranch
I'm hoping that Bliz leaves scorpids alone and, if they fix anything, just fix the stacking of rank 4 with other ranks. It's just for 1 hunter, after all. (As long as that hunter's me 8-).
#843SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Xeno
So I made the switch recently, and am basically floored by the inability of my pet to hold aggro anymore. Is there something I'm missing here?
#844SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729Cheeky
A little bit more work on Scorpid poison:

I've switched to using real world stats from my Hunter and Scorpid, since I have this all in a spreadsheet now and those numbers were handy.

Hunter RAP - 1860
Pet chance to Apply vs. L73 target - 89.8%
Rank 4 base damage - 40
Damage from Rap - 232.5
Scorpid Family - 94%
Happy - 125%
Unleashed Fury - 120%
Ferocious Inspiration - 102.87%
Total Damage - 395.24 or 39.5 DPS per stack active.

Ok, we also know from my post above how to calculate the average amount of time taken to advance one stack 0-4, it's 4.37 seconds. So to get to 5 ranks takes, on average 21.85 seconds.

We also know the chance to not apply through 2 successive misses is 1.04%.

If a stack turns out to be the maximum, we get a little "Bonus" time of 2 seconds at the current damage, since the duration is 10 seconds and we reapply every 4. Factoring this in the time spent on any level stack of damage is 4.47s. After that you have either moved up, or fell back to 0.

The amount of time spent at 5 ranks is computed by taking 1/(chance to fall off) * 4, or 4/1.04 = 384.47 seconds. That's a lot fo time spent on max rank until random chance knocks us back down to 0. (You actually get 2 more "extra" seconds as well there.)

If we look at this as a function of stacks and time we get:
stack  Time to   Average        %       DPS     Ratio
  #     Reach   Time Spent   of time  at Stack   DPS
 0      0.00      4.37        1.07%       0.0     0.0
 1      4.37      4.47        1.10%      39.52    0.43
 2      8.74      4.47        1.10%      79.05    0.87
 3      13.11     4.47        1.10%     118.57    1.30
 4      17.48     4.47        1.10%     158.10    1.74
 5      21.85    384.47      94.53%     197.62  186.8
   Total         406.73     100.00%       DPS - 191.15
If this is right, Rank4 of Scorpid Poison for a Scorpid pet of my Hunter will average 191.15 DPS over a 406 second block of combat. That's pretty incredible, and completely blows away any other pet ability by about a factor of 3. And these calculations were done without The Beast Within or any other trinket use or buffs.

For completeness sake, I ran the same calculations with Rank 5. And even with it only having 1 chance to apply, it actually averages more damage, 195.56, since each stack adds about 11 more damage. Your total uptime is over a 62.5 second block instead of 406, so it doesn't work as well with TBW and trinkets. But it is still a viable DPS tool even if you are on mobs that only last a minute or so.

I'm sure I have something wrong in this model, since I've only really spent a few hours on it. I'm sure Lactose will pop along and point out numerous flaws. But at least we have the beginnings of a framework to look at this. It all comes down to the RAP scaling. Take that out and you are looking at a 30 DPS ability, about half as good as Claw.
#845SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.0.6729AndrewCarr
Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
So I made the switch recently, and am basically floored by the inability of my pet to hold aggro anymore. Is there something I'm missing here?
From what I know, Growl was changed to be based on Pet attack power, instead of hunter attack power. This resulted in an overall lessening of pet tps. I noticed it somewhat as marks, noticed it hugely as Survival, and haven't yet tried BM since 2.1
#846SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Kenoki
Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
So I made the switch recently, and am basically floored by the inability of my pet to hold aggro anymore. Is there something I'm missing here?
Using a owl (spamming screech) should help you a great deal with that pet aggro troubles.
It did for me.
#847SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Zurgat
Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
So I made the switch recently, and am basically floored by the inability of my pet to hold aggro anymore. Is there something I'm missing here?
A Pig works wonders also, starts out with 4K threat after a successful charge & stun.

Last edited by Zurgat : 06/05/07 at 5:37 AM.
#848SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Yoens
For those trying to stack trinkets/procs before activating scorpid, note that the conversion from RAP to pet spell damage is delayed -- open up your pet tab and see for yourself. You can typically fit in the hourglass + bloodlust proc a couple seconds before the hourglass buff fades, though I'm not sure how variable this is with how the server decides to update pet stats.
#849SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 topojijo
I was looking for some advice on improving my dps if I can.

Here is a recent log of a Prince kill I was in with myself at the top http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=4sihhcmrdmyxw

Now a few things, I was calling down the infernals which is always a distraction for me since I'm never fast with it and my pet was on the boss the entire time.

Currently I'm not fully speced for raiding since my old raiding guild blew up and I'm between guilds, so my spec is crazy. Given my current spec and gear, and what you see from the log file should I be doing way more damage?

That is probably the highest I've done and I know it could be a bit better with a Fel Mana Pot since I had to use Viper at the end. I'm seeing many hunters here cranking out 1k+ with (Granted raiding specs), so I was just seeing if I was just sucking it up or not.
#850SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Alidien
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
As far as I can tell from my testing, only hunter RAP scales pet spell damage. Consequently, I wouldn't expect UR or Battleshout to have an effect on spell damage (although they would help increase the damage on claw, etc). Given that Illhoof is a vulnerability fight, did you happen to apply the first application after Kil'rek died? That might explain the massive damage boost you appear to be getting.
Bah.. didn't think of that. That would of course explain it. I was simply too blinded by the numbers I think. Almost 600 DPS from the pet alone would certainly be a bit over the top (Based on SW stats. I was raid leader for the first time and forgot to log the raid..... )
#851SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Odeanathus
Originally Posted by topojijo View Post
I was looking for some advice on improving my dps if I can.

Here is a recent log of a Prince kill I was in with myself at the top http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=4sihhcmrdmyxw

Now a few things, I was calling down the infernals which is always a distraction for me since I'm never fast with it and my pet was on the boss the entire time.

Currently I'm not fully speced for raiding since my old raiding guild blew up and I'm between guilds, so my spec is crazy. Given my current spec and gear, and what you see from the log file should I be doing way more damage?

That is probably the highest I've done and I know it could be a bit better with a Fel Mana Pot since I had to use Viper at the end. I'm seeing many hunters here cranking out 1k+ with (Granted raiding specs), so I was just seeing if I was just sucking it up or not.
i haven't looked @ your gear or specc... just the skills you use.. i noticed 2 things..

1. You value Arcaneshot over Multi
2. No Claw/Gore

1. Multishot (correct me if im wrong) does more damage/mana then Arcane.. especially since arcane shot can get partially resisted yadayadayada. Personally i've dropped using Arcane for about 99% and use Steady/Multi in my rotations. (I am BM though)

2. No claw/gore nerfs your pet.. it doesn't have a focus dump... only uses bite... meaning it has unused focus.. it's better to have your cat have Bite + Claw (or ravager Bite + Gore) For highest possible pet DPS. (correct me if im wrong guru's :P)

Eitherway these are 2 things i'd change.
#852SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1AndrewCarr
Hmm... but would shaman totems buff pet spell damage if buffing pet AP doesn't?
#853SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Odeanathus
Originally Posted by AndrewCarr View Post
Hmm... but would shaman totems buff pet spell damage if buffing pet AP doesn't?
Yes.

YOUR ranged ap == more Pet Spelldamage..
PET ap == more white damage
PET Spelldamage == More spelldamage.
#854SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
Hehe, maybe now I will allow my Mage friends to take Wrath of Air (is that the name of it?).. I'm always hogging the 77 agi, they get pretty annoyed ;P. Anyway, here's my question: would it be possible for someone to whip up a mod (or show a mod that currently does this) that will time the duration on Scorpid Poison so that I can use a macro (to turn Claw on/off) at ~3 sec left on the stack and then put claw back on after it shows 10 again? A little timer bar in the middle of my screen would be great. I think the default blizz unit frames do that with the little duration showing thing since 2.1.. but I hate the default blizz unit frames, and that little duration showy thing obscures the icon to the point I have no clue what the debuff on the target is.
#855SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Odeanathus
ST (sorrenstimers) does this just fine.

http://files.wowace.com/SorrenTimers/

It's an Ace addon so nice and low usage.
#856SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Qivi
Quartz has it built in aswell.

http://www.wowace.com/wiki/Quartz
#857SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Qivi
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
Anyway, here's my question: would it be possible for someone to whip up a mod (or show a mod that currently does this) that will time the duration on Scorpid Poison so that I can use a macro (to turn Claw on/off) at ~3 sec left on the stack and then put claw back on after it shows 10 again?
The point of using rank 4 with the 10 sec duration is so the pet can re-apply it even if it misses once. If you wait till it only has 3 secs left and the pet misses, all 5 stacks will be lost and you'll have to re-apply them.
#858SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Felthorn
Figured this belonged here and not in another post:

I was looking at all the +haste equipment that is starting to be available (Band of Devastation, Lightning Reflexes gear, etc.) and started to wonder just how fast we could get an aimed shot off if we stacked haste effects. Mostly interested in fairly static buffs so Aimed could be worked in a rotation reliably.

So, there is:
Serpent's swiftness: 20% haste
Quiver: 15% haste
IAotH: 15% haste (going to assume it will be up most of the time)
Gear: looks like there's about 170 or so haste rating available from gear (and I believe 24 haste rating =1% haste? That is the number I've seen quoted) so: around 7% haste.

After haste effects:

Aimed shot cast time: 1.88 seconds
2.9 speed bow cast time: 1.56 seconds

It looks like you lose .32 seconds of Autoshot cast time.

Rotation would look something like:
auto>steady>auto>aimed>(.32 delay)>steady>auto>etc.

So, it would take 5 rotations to lose 1 full autoshot.

Seems like it would be worth it. . . ?

I'm terrible at theory so I'm hoping someone with more acumen in that department might be able to legitimize what I think could be a great idea =)
#859SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
Right, my idea is that Scorpid Poison and Claw will both be on autocast and I will just take Claw off autocast a few seconds before the stack expires so that in case for some weird reason due to focus issues I haven't gotten a chance at Poison, I will at least get a guaranteed choice. Would you suggest doing the toggle on Claw every 4 seconds for Scorpid Poison's cooldown? That seems a bit too micro intensive and would probably give you worse results than flat out manual casting Claw.. Maybe thats what I'll do, even though its inefficient.

Damn what I would give to be able to put a conditional in a macro that casts Claw any time I'm above 55 focus and put that with my Steady spam macro..

How are you guys using your Scorpids? Poison only? Poison + Claw with a very high critrate? Manual casting both? I'm finding it hard to find a good way to utilize both Claw and Poison and not lose Poison stacks. That may be because my critrate is just too low (only 20%), so maybe I'd be better off just using Poison. Even with Rank 4 Poison, if the AI casts Claw over Poison at the wrong time, you can lose the stack pretty often due to lack of focus (i.e. @ 4 seconds since last stack AI casts Claw, out of energy till 7th second, Poison miss, next apply at 11 seconds so the last stack is gone).

Would manual casting Claw be the best choice here? Or would a non-Clawing Scorpid still be better than, say, a Windserpent or a Ravager?
#860SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Qivi
Originally Posted by Felthorn View Post
So, there is:
Serpent's swiftness: 20% haste
Quiver: 15% haste
IAotH: 15% haste (going to assume it will be up most of the time)
Gear: looks like there's about 170 or so haste rating available from gear (and I believe 24 haste rating =1% haste? That is the number I've seen quoted) so: around 7% haste.
Except Serpent's Swiftness, IAotH and quivers aren't haste effects but effects that increase your attack speed? Only applies to your weapons speed, reducing the cooldown of Auto Shot.
#861SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
You'd be paying 370 mana for 870 damage pre-crit and pre-armor. Not only that, you're taking the time slot of both an Auto Shot AND a Steady Shot (because Aimed Shot resets the Auto Shot timer). I can't see that ever being viable. I will say, however, that Aimed Shot with that kind of haste would be rather interesting in PvP.

[EDIT] @ Qivi: Actually those effects do change the cast time on Aimed Shot afaik.
#862SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Felthorn
I believe Aimed adds 870 to your normal weapon damage (otherwise I don't see how I can get 3.5k crits).

If indeed the effects of +haste on gear doesn't affect your special shots it makes this less viable. I assumed it would affect your special shots just like spell haste affects the cast time of spells.

I'll have to try and get ahold of the +haste cloak made from depleted Apexis quests. (not sure the name/proceedure) and see if I notice any difference.

And I suppose using aimed, even at a fast shot time, would be delaying your rotation by 1.8 seconds. I'm thinking I should actually test this a bit and see how it works.

Thanks for the input.
#863SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Qivi
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
[EDIT] @ Qivi: Actually those effects do change the cast time on Aimed Shot afaik.
Never realised that :P

Haste does affect casting time of specials. Sorry for my confusion. I was under the impression quivers, Serpent's Swiftness ect. didn't.
#864SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
Not only that, you're taking the time slot of both an Auto Shot AND a Steady Shot (because Aimed Shot resets the Auto Shot timer).
Bingo. Aimed shot has been designed so it can't fit into a rotation without screwing it up. Essentially, add your autoshot time to the end of your aimed shot time to get the required time to cast. It would amount to losing an entire autoshot (or 2, depending on the cast time of aimed shot) to fit in aimed + special - I think if you do the math you'd see this would net significantly less damage than an alternative rotation.
#865SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Felthorn
Could cause mana problems, but throw in an arcane and a multi in that "dead spot" to make up for the lost auto?

really, it is only 1.88 seconds. . . only 1 autoshot. =]


But yeah, I'll be doing some testing.
#866SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
Felthorn, the point is you could throw in an Arcane or Multi anyway (i.e. Auto - Steady - Arcane - Auto). Aimed Shot will never really increase your dps because you lose the 1.88 seconds (given haste effects) which could have had a Steady Shot in there, AND you also lose the Auto Shot that would have fired after the Steady Shot because the timer is reset. If you think of Aimed Shot as Auto Shot + 870 damage, it is easy to see that 870 damage for ~400 mana does not outweigh Steady Shot damage for ~100 mana.. And thats not even counting the fact that your entire rotation is delayed by 1.88 seconds due to Auto Shot timer starting back at 0 after the Aimed Shot.

[EDIT] Must bring thread back to Scorpid discussion >.>;. Would a non-Clawing Scorpid beat a Windserpent / Ravager? That would be pretty much discounting trash mobs, just Poison on for bosses (or Claw on immune bosses such as Curator -- he IS immune, right o.0?).
#867SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Qivi
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
[EDIT] Must bring thread back to Scorpid discussion >.>;. Would a non-Clawing Scorpid beat a Windserpent / Ravager? That would be pretty much discounting trash mobs, just Poison on for bosses (or Claw on immune bosses such as Curator -- he IS immune, right o.0?).
With 600+ ticks from the poison I can't imagine any other pets even come close to the damage the scorpid can do on bosses that isn't poison immune. I'm currently levelling a ravager for comparison and as an alternative when blizzard swings the nerf bat.
#868SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Qivi View Post
With 600+ ticks from the poison I can't imagine any other pets even come close to the damage the scorpid can do on bosses that isn't poison immune. I'm currently levelling a ravager for comparison and as an alternative when blizzard swings the nerf bat.
A good cat/ravager could put out MAYBE 300-400 dps. With an uber-stack of poison, you can clear 600 ticks every 2 seconds (so at least 300 dps). Once you factor in white dps of around 100, I think you could safely make the assumption that a non-clawing scorpid would be competitive. I realize that these are very rough numbers, but I feel confident that they are both generous to the cat/ravager and conservative for a poison stack. The real issue, as others have mentioned, is that if the poison stack falls off (due to movement/bad luck in a fight) then you lose a tremendous amount of damage.
#869SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
Unrelated and quick question:

My Kara group has just started on Nightbane. We're doing pretty well on the fight, but I'm finding myself constantly having to pull my pet out due to Charred Earth. I see that the Rogues easily avoid it by either going around to the other side of Nightbane or just moving a bit closer or further. Is there any way to trick the pet AI into going closer / farther from Nightbane? The pet can autoattack from a ridiculous range away, so thats not a problem. How do Hunters here manage to get decent pet dps time on Nightbane? Would going to the other side of Nightbane help out (does Nightbane target a certain person and Charred Earth in an aoe around him?)?
#870SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Breakerone
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
A good cat/ravager could put out MAYBE 300-400 dps. With an uber-stack of poison, you can clear 600 ticks every 2 seconds (so at least 300 dps). Once you factor in white dps of around 100, I think you could safely make the assumption that a non-clawing scorpid would be competitive. I realize that these are very rough numbers, but I feel confident that they are both generous to the cat/ravager and conservative for a poison stack. The real issue, as others have mentioned, is that if the poison stack falls off (due to movement/bad luck in a fight) then you lose a tremendous amount of damage.
All of the discussion and theories about the scorpids is nice, but lets be serious for a minute. Is that really worth the trouble?

My wind serpent can dish out 400 dps after all reductions and thats with a ton of missed kill commands thanks to the supergreat getting-out-of-melee thing.
Now as Osse showed a scorpid can get above 600dps on a lvl 50 mob without misses, so I'd say in a raid situation it'll be about ~500dps. But as someone pointed out, fights where your pet is activly doing damage from beginning to end are super rare. If you have to move it, your dps will fall below the dps of a cat or something, and moving around happens a lot.

But even for the 3 fights I can imagine right now where you can let it do its thing for the entire fight, will you have the time left to check if there was a stack missed in between and if you have to pull it back, wait until the last dot runs out (the one that was still applied but failed to keep the old stack going), wait for cooldowns to be ready and send it back it with renewed BW and trinkets?
I believe on top of all the other stuff a BM has to look for thats quite a task and you also have to count that you either lose a lot of dps, while trying to get the circumstances right for a new start of buffed stacks in the middle of a fight or you just have to let it go after a miss with mediocre damage and focus on the other stuff you are doing.

So, again, is it worth it bringing a scorp to a raid, use it with superb damage on less then half the fights with a lot of needed attention, with quite noticable less dps on the other half of the fights and a serious chance of not even getting the great dps on the mobs where its supposed to work?
#871SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
You can't control the movement of your pet to that degree without Eyes of the Beast, which would make you stop dps. You'll just have to deal with pulling him back and trying to keep HoTs up. I assume the charred earth counts as an aoe and is affected by Avoidance, so that should help.
#872SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Snoyes
Well, my pet has alot of fire ress because i find it usefull when i grind primal fires. And now when mend pet is a HoT heal its not that hard. If the pet has very low health i just pull him back to me and heal him and then let him attack again. Im usually at spot 3 at nightbane and 1-2 on other bosses.
#873SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
Sadly Avoidance didn't seem to be doing anything to mitigate the damage (Charred Earth applies a DoT that ticks for damage rather than dealing environmental damage aoe). I will consider speccing into Fire Resistance, seeing as though we would do Nightbane the day after we kill Prince, giving me time to visit a pet trainer. Thanks.
#874SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Magicme
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
supergreat getting-out-of-melee thing.
There is a solution to that problem. If you turn Lightning Breath off of auto cast and manually do it instead (I stick it in with my macro), the pet will no longer run out, ever. It even casts LB without stopping as it moves in towards the mob

As for the Scorpid, it seems like it is the Top DPS pet atm, but only in perfect situations. I'm leveling one up at the moment, but it certainly wouldn't be the best dps for those fights where you have to have ur pet stopping and starting, as the chains of 600 ticks would quickly be broken.

They are putting up very nice numbers though
#875SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Corleno
Pet Options

I'm new to world of Raiding as a Hunter. I Have played Druid, Warrior, Mage and Shadowprist in raid environments. I'd like to thik i understand most of what i need to/should be doing as a hunter (thanks to this thread) but i'm still abit unsure of what pet would be the best for the Raid Instances. I've trained up a Rank 4 Poison Scorpid (no claw), and i have a Warp Stalker for when i pvp, The 3rd pet is what i'd like to have for thoses bosses which the scorpid is inneffective. Right now i have a Wolf Pet that i use for 5mans, but i've yet to read anything about Furious Howl. I think it's damn good ability if you get put in a melee group, but like i said i'm still learning all the stuff. What would you guys say is a good pet for my 3rd slot. I'm the type of person that i don't care if my personal dps drops a bit if my pet's ability will benefit the raid more as a whole. I was also considering to replace my warp stalker and have 2 utility pets. Things i'm lookin at now are:

Cat (Pure DPS)
WindSerpet (Pure DPS)
Owl (AP Debuff)
Ravager (Pure DPS)
Wolf (Furious Howl)

Could someone shed some insight and possibly offer me some advice on what i should use?

I forgot to mention. I spec all my pets pretty much the same way. Rank 10 Stamina, Rank 2 Avoidance, Cobra Reflexes, 2 Attacks, the rest goes into Armor / Resist Depending on what's i'd use it for.
#876SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
The quickest and easiest would be to grab a lvl 70 cat from Skethis. Ravagers actually do slightly more dps if you feel like leveling up a lvl 63 ravager.
#877SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Breakerone
Originally Posted by Magicme View Post
There is a solution to that problem. If you turn Lightning Breath off of auto cast and manually do it instead (I stick it in with my macro), the pet will no longer run out, ever. It even casts LB without stopping as it moves in towards the mob
Lactose said the same thing, and I did exactly that, but it still backs out of melee range OR does something else, which I cant see that prevents KC from being casted. And if KC cant be casted while being ready my macro seems to go into a lockdown and the castsequence is stopped, which can only be broken by waiting for an uncertain period until KC worked or by quickly casting the sequence manually.

The sad thing is, there are no methods of really testing it without a full raid. I works without problems on the blasted lands mob, but I had no problems on him anyway.
Its something other people do to the mob in a raid that gets my serpent out of melee. I thoughts its immobilizing or something, but I am totally unsure. (even more now after already 2 people tell me it should work..)
#878SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1BigBlue
Originally Posted by Corleno View Post
I'm new to world of Raiding as a Hunter. I Have played Druid, Warrior, Mage and Shadowprist in raid environments. I'd like to thik i understand most of what i need to/should be doing as a hunter (thanks to this thread) but i'm still abit unsure of what pet would be the best for the Raid Instances. I've trained up a Rank 4 Poison Scorpid (no claw), and i have a Warp Stalker for when i pvp, The 3rd pet is what i'd like to have for thoses bosses which the scorpid is inneffective. Right now i have a Wolf Pet that i use for 5mans, but i've yet to read anything about Furious Howl. I think it's damn good ability if you get put in a melee group, but like i said i'm still learning all the stuff. What would you guys say is a good pet for my 3rd slot. I'm the type of person that i don't care if my personal dps drops a bit if my pet's ability will benefit the raid more as a whole. I was also considering to replace my warp stalker and have 2 utility pets. Things i'm lookin at now are:

Cat (Pure DPS)
WindSerpet (Pure DPS)
Owl (AP Debuff)
Ravager (Pure DPS)
Wolf (Furious Howl)

Could someone shed some insight and possibly offer me some advice on what i should use?

I forgot to mention. I spec all my pets pretty much the same way. Rank 10 Stamina, Rank 2 Avoidance, Cobra Reflexes, 2 Attacks, the rest goes into Armor / Resist Depending on what's i'd use it for.
If you dont mind leveling one from 60, a great soloing/5man offtanking pet is a boar. Also, the boar charge has a similar effect to your warp stalker's warp, but better imo.

While the scorpid has the potential to do amazing DPS I dont really think it is worth it, atleast not yet. I can not seem to make it prioritize poison over claw and the stacks drop with claw on (even with excess focus.) With claw off he has 100 focus almost all the time. And there is the issue of mobs moving/aoeing to drop stacks as well as the immune mobs. Some mobs you might get 100 dps more while others you get 100 (or more) dps less than a "pure dps" pet.

My raid leader asks me to bring the owl to 25 mans for the screech debuff since it stacks with other AP debuffs.

Hope that helps a little.
#879SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Kolusius
There used to be an addon, back when bite and claw were the only options, that would always make sure your pet had the focus to bite when the cooldown was up. I dont recall the name, but it is possible to make an addon like that. Now, if only I knew anything about accomplishing that.

To chime in on the scorpid debate: Al'ar isnt immune to the poison which surprised me. Voidreaver is immune. I put out better numbers with my ravager, but I was also using a disloyal, level 69, poorly trained scorpid. Deranking the poison would probably have helped a bit, along with the extra level and cobra reflexes.
#880SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Kolusius View Post
There used to be an addon, back when bite and claw were the only options, that would always make sure your pet had the focus to bite when the cooldown was up. I dont recall the name, but it is possible to make an addon like that. Now, if only I knew anything about accomplishing that.
This should be impossible with the new add on rules. Pretty sure they cannot cast pet spells without a button click anymore.
#881SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Qivi
Originally Posted by Kolusius View Post
There used to be an addon, back when bite and claw were the only options, that would always make sure your pet had the focus to bite when the cooldown was up. I dont recall the name, but it is possible to make an addon like that. Now, if only I knew anything about accomplishing that.
Blizzard removed functionality in addons to perform actions automaticly if thats what you're speaking of?

Someone previously posted a macro which would make the scorpid to use poison and claw if it had the focus for it, or just the poison if it didn't. At the press of a button of course.
#882SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Originally Posted by Qivi View Post
Someone previously posted a macro which would make the scorpid to use poison and claw if it had the focus for it, or just the poison if it didn't. At the press of a button of course.
Oh, I missed that somehow. I'll have to go find it. Sounds like what I need.
#883SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
I understand what you mean about the highly contrived scenarios in which a scorpid is better than a ravager or cat, but there are such scenarios in the game currently. Consequently, we'd be remiss as a community if we didn't explore every option to enhance our primary role in raids: Misdirection. Er, wait, no...dps. Yes, dps. If scorpids can provide substantial dps upgrades for SOME of the fights, then if you want to max your dps you need to use a scorpid on those fights. Just the cost of pursuing the highest possible dps, I guess.

Also, has anyone tried power infusing a scorpid? I wanna see some really retarded numbers (thus guaranteeing a nerf...).
#884SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lodi
There are lvl 70 ravagers in the cave on the Netherwing island in the SE of Shadowmoon Valley. They're a minority spawn you'll see a few of in every clear of the cave.
#885SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Not tamable.

Dear Hunters,
Eff you.
- Blizzard.
#886SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Kolusius
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
This should be impossible with the new add on rules. Pretty sure they cannot cast pet spells without a button click anymore.
Not sure if it cast them per se, both would be on autocast, it just wouldnt let claw fire if it resulted in not enough focus for a bite. Its more toggling on/off autocast than actually casting the ability.

Edit: Which is essentially the same thing, so there is a good shot it got removed also.
#887SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 topojijo
Originally Posted by Odeanathus View Post
i haven't looked @ your gear or specc... just the skills you use.. i noticed 2 things..

1. You value Arcaneshot over Multi
2. No Claw/Gore

1. Multishot (correct me if im wrong) does more damage/mana then Arcane.. especially since arcane shot can get partially resisted yadayadayada. Personally i've dropped using Arcane for about 99% and use Steady/Multi in my rotations. (I am BM though)

2. No claw/gore nerfs your pet.. it doesn't have a focus dump... only uses bite... meaning it has unused focus.. it's better to have your cat have Bite + Claw (or ravager Bite + Gore) For highest possible pet DPS. (correct me if im wrong guru's :P)

Eitherway these are 2 things i'd change.
I wasn't aware of the Multi issue so I will go ahead and test that out. I completely missed Claw for some reason but I'm not sure why. Thanks, and yes I am Beast Master.
#888SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
I believe the problem is that skills cannot be cast or toggled conditionally, meaning that an addon cannot say, "IF ScorpidOnCooldown & Focus > 55, Cast Claw". Also, the problem with the macro (I believe I was the one that posted it) is that in order to fully realize Rank 4's effectiveness, there is a 2 second window that Poison HAS to be activated.

Poison Applied========c/d done====
1 sec----2 sec-----3 sec----4 sec----5 sec-----6 sec----etc.
-----------------------------[Window of Application]---------------

Meaning that if on the fourth second Claw is used over Poison, the fifth second will almost surely not have Focus to Poison, meaning that that window is missed. Effectively, if the application of poison within the next 5 seconds from the window being missed is dodged/parried/missed, the poison stack is lost and the benefit of Rank 4 is lost.

I agree with The Iron Colonel.. if we want to maximize dps, we should include a Scorpid in our stables. There are fights on which the Scorpid will consistently put out better numbers than Wind Serpents/Ravagers/Cats.
#889SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Zurgat
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Not tamable.

Dear Hunters,
Eff you.
- Blizzard.
Hear hear.

Yes its sad though. But started working on the lvl 63 ravager, taking forever.....
I got the lvl 70 cat up to his 6th loyalty at least.
Wish i had more than 3 stable slots. >_<
#890SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Qivi
Little off topic but while levelling a level 63 ravager I found out it's actually faster to go from revered with The Consortium to exalted than to get the ravager to level 68.
#891SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Alidien
Originally Posted by Qivi View Post
Little off topic but while levelling a level 63 ravager I found out it's actually faster to go from revered with The Consortium to exalted than to get the ravager to level 68.
Hehe, I did the exact same experiment.. Gave up on the ravager half way there though.
#892SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1AndrewCarr
Right now it's obvious to me, by looking at the trees and seeing all this anecdotal evidence(Osse, Ahoq, Djinn, etc. all doing extremely well when spec'd BM) that BM > > > MM for raiding purposes. Now that my guild is moving into SSC and our Hunters are still viewed as pretty meh for dps, I'd like to convince most/all of our hunters to go BM, and a designated 1-2 to go Survival, or at least seriously consider it.

I was previously 0/43/18, and a lot of our hunters still are. It provided a good amount of utility in Karazhan, it's what most of us are used to, and there's still the stigma of pet = liability.

Convincing people that the new pet mechanics and cleave mechanics make keeping pets alive on most of our fights trivial is relatively easy.

Convincing them that yes, switching to BM will be a BIG upgrade, is not as easy however.

So what I'm looking for is a large amount of theorycraft comparing Hunter DPS specs so that I can point out, mathematically, why they should respec. Something like Howitzer's post on the WoW Hunter forums, but with a bit more meat to it.

Could you guys help me with this, or at least suggest key things I should cover? (i.e. look up ____'s post on why BM pets do 100 dps more than MM pets, and ____'s post on why SS makes BM ranged dps actually higher than MM ranged dps). so that I can piece together my own sort of compilation.

I generally just skim this thread since Survival interests me more, but I figure if I want to get people onto the BM bandwagon I should have a solid basis of facts to work from.
#893SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Breakerone
I guess its going to be a bit too much to write a quick essay for the specs to convince your guild. But if you say you are moving to SSC now, that means you have gruul and mag on farm and I would say thats your best chance of showing what you can achieve, cause both fights are close to optimal for a hunter/pet. Just spec BM, go to the raid, and see what you reach.

Its not easy to send you to post xy to just see some charts, because this is not a guarateed thing. Its also not really true that a BM without a pet will get close to an MM without a pet. On the contrary, I'd say he has no chance. As a BM, nowadays with KC my pet does more then 30% of my damage, having it active gives me further 2% from FF, 3% from FI, and almost 1% from TBW. So, no. BM ranged dps with serpent is not better then MM dps per se.
#894SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1AndrewCarr
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I guess its going to be a bit too much to write a quick essay for the specs to convince your guild. But if you say you are moving to SSC now, that means you have gruul and mag on farm and I would say thats your best chance of showing what you can achieve, cause both fights are close to optimal for a hunter/pet. Just spec BM, go to the raid, and see what you reach.

Its not easy to send you to post xy to just see some charts, because this is not a guarateed thing. Its also not really true that a BM without a pet will get close to an MM without a pet. On the contrary, I'd say he has no chance. As a BM, nowadays with KC my pet does more then 30% of my damage, having it active gives me further 2% from FF, 3% from FI, and almost 1% from TBW. So, no. BM ranged dps with serpent is not better then MM dps per se.
Yeah, I wasn't really sure on that. I figured it would come close at least, but I haven't collected enough data to be sure.
#895SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Honestly, Howitzer's meter post is the best empirical evidence that's posted in a convenient place. Try this: get the guild to allow the least geared hunter to go BM (as long as he's competent enough to play the spec) and then see what the numbers are. If a poorly geared BM hunter keeps up with well geared MM hunters, what are they going to complain about?

BreakerOne pretty much nails it; it would be difficult to write a 'reader's digest' version of the huge number of posts available on BM raiding. I would simply point to Howitzer's comparison post and use that as an example of the potential and if they have follow up questions, just point them to this thread. It's long, yes, but it covers more or less every topic of interest (or at the very least touches each topic so they would get a general idea of what's going on).
#896SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Alidien
Originally Posted by AndrewCarr View Post
Yeah, I wasn't really sure on that. I figured it would come close at least, but I haven't collected enough data to be sure.
I tested a survival build with Imp AotH in SSC yesterday. With around 920 agi raidbuffed (no leather items, no GoA) and 41% crit I was still not even close to keep up the 1k+ DPS race which was fairly easy to maintain with a BM spec. At least I kept the melee happy, and I was able to keep going without a shadowpriest, just surviving on Fel Mana.

The thing I'm wondering a bit about is, these days we don't really have melee heavy raids.. at the max we have 5 melee dps and 2 hunters. At which point will Expose Weakness (for 7 physical dps) be more/less useful than FI for 1 hunter + 4 mixed dps?
#897SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Alidien View Post
I tested a survival build with Imp AotH in SSC yesterday. With around 920 agi raidbuffed (no leather items, no GoA) and 41% crit I was still not even close to keep up the 1k+ DPS race which was fairly easy to maintain with a BM spec. At least I kept the melee happy, and I was able to keep going without a shadowpriest, just surviving on Fel Mana.

The thing I'm wondering a bit about is, these days we don't really have melee heavy raids.. at the max we have 5 melee dps and 2 hunters. At which point will Expose Weakness (for 7 physical dps) be more/less useful than FI for 1 hunter + 4 mixed dps?
The benefit from EW has always been a function of raid composition (heavy melee/physical raids derive correspondingly more benefit, obviously). One of the prime issues when addressing what someone brings to the raid is the assumptions made regarding composition of the raid. If you assumed you had 2 melee groups when you specced SV, and now you don't, you're bringing less to the raid than you anticipated.

As far as FI goes, that's a function of your group placement more so than overall raid composition. Lets assume you're in a pure dps group (doesn't matter what kind, FI is a straight damage increase). If you have 4 other players dealing 1k dps (nice round number; assume you're doing 1k dps as well) FI is adding 5*1000*0.03=150 dps to the raid. 150 dps is equivalent to 2100 AP [ed: in white damage only, it's a much more difficult problem to figure out how much yellow damage AP adds, so I'm going to use the straight 14 AP = 1 DPS conversion. This is not strictly accurate, I acknowledge that]. With EW, at 920 agi, you're adding 230 AP to at max 7 people (as you stated), which is 1610 AP. As I said, because I didn't account for the increase in yellow damage from the AP, I would wager that EW is adding approximately the same dps (probably not exactly the same, but they are roughly comparable).

If you're concerned about not adding enough damage to the raid with EW, it would appear that FI is a viable alternative; I can't say conclusively, but they are roughly comparable given the raid composition you described. If they are roughly comparable and BM will increase your personal dps, then I would say BM would net the raid more damage, based on some quick numbers.
#898SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Thornbloom
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Just spec BM, go to the raid, and see what you reach.
That's what myself and another hunter in my guild did, having followed this thread since PTR. And I can tell you it made a big impression. In the end ppl won't believe you if you just throw theorycrafting at them; they need to see the SW Stats to believe it.

Anyways, I wanted to ask for some advice. Having seen some great numbers posted by Osse et al I'd like to know how I can start consistently cracking 1k dps. Depending on the encounter I'm currently doing 780-980. Here's a report from last night:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...2827-3226&a=55

Now the most obvious thing is that I don't have any beneficial group buffs in that report except Blood Pact. So apart from that what would you suggest? Is having both Bite & Claw on auto cast dps/focus inefficient? Would getting a ravager/scorp make much difference?

Thanks in advance for your help.
#899SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Osse
Whats your average ping like in raids, Thornbloom?

Ravager would boost your dps by a bit, but not so much. As in... 10-20 dps.
#900SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Thornbloom
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Whats your average ping like in raids, Thornbloom?
I run with about 60ms.
#901SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Zoobert
Me and another hunter went BM spec to test this concept out. We learned a few things:

1) Kiggler the Crazed, his AOE knockback doesn't trigger on pets. Send that pet in while you're tanking him.
2) Two hunters tanking Kiggler, you can kill him before the raid group gets to him.
3) The BM hunters were topping the charts on Gruul. Stark contrast to being upper-middlin as MM.
4) We were doing ~100 more DPS than the MM hunter in the raid, on average. We're all fairly similarly geared.
5) Gruul's cave-ins are quite managable. With the HoT mend and just keeping an eye for cave-ins, it's easy to recover from.
6) BM uses next to no mana, compared to MM. I personally love that. This was using just BoW and Hawk. I couldn't throw it away fast enough.
7) The 2 BM hunters went into a group with locks to give that 6% FI bonus dmg (since it stacks). In return we got some shammy totems for the pets bump.

It's significantly a different playstyle than MM - but I've easily noticed a large jump in my DPS and damage output. When I used to show up 5th, 6th on fights, I'm #1-#3 now.

Cons:
I feel like a 2 minute mage. I miss scatter shot. You're more dependant on the pet than ever before.

Still, I'm for PVE - and it's an increase over MM, that's for sure.
#902SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Osse
Originally Posted by Thornbloom View Post
I run with about 60ms.
Thats pretty weird then, as I have 50-75 in raids, no idea what else could be different.
#903SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
lilwolfe
Zoobert, thanks for posting - it was something I was about to ask about myself! Now, to throw the rest of the stuff out on the table.

I've played Hunter for the last 2 years and really enjoy the class. I work hard at it, and am always looking to find ways to improve my performance. I levelled as marksman, went to high agility survival build at 60 for raiding, switched to BM during Patch 2.0 and then maintained that through 70.

When we began raiding Kara and doing heroics, I was missing the burst damage that marksman hunters could put out (Mostly for things like flares on curator, vorpil spawns and demon chains on illhoof) so I went back to Marksman but specced into improved traps. (I keep two pieces of beast lord on me to use during heroics that require strong cc.)

My current spec is up on armory. http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...uncil&n=Rajani

I also carry Earthstrike and Core of Arkelos which I swap in and out throughout raids. I do alright for DPS in most places. I never top our extreme mages or warlocks, but I hover nicely among the rogues and such.

We're now well established with Karazhan, Gruuls and Magtheridon clears, and looking to move on to SSC. I've been dabbling with the idea of returning to BM and such, but I am not sure on what spec works the best, or which encounters the pet becomes a nuisance, or extreme hazard.

For example: (I've been too scared to try)
Do pets set off flame wreath? (How about snake trap)
Do pets magnify cave-in damage in Gruul, or arcane flare explosion damage on Curator?
Can pets DPS Maiden without crowding the melee?

Once we get into SSC, how do pets handle things? How much of the BM dps comes from the pets ability to cause damage, or does the scaling of SS cover that on its own?

What gem/stat priorities do BM hunters look for, and what changes in my gear/set up would you suggest for either a respec to BM, or for keeping current Marks spec? Can you point me to a really nicely set up BM on armory? Thanks!

Oh Edit: And what shot rotation is considered more common for BM?

Last edited by lilwolfe : 06/06/07 at 1:05 PM.
#904SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Scorpid raid dps has now made the main WoW hunter forums... incoming nerf no doubt.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...08245888&sid=1
#905SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
For example: (I've been too scared to try)
Do pets set off flame wreath? (How about snake trap)
Do pets magnify cave-in damage in Gruul, or arcane flare explosion damage on Curator?
Can pets DPS Maiden without crowding the melee?
No; no; yes, contingent upon how much melee you typically use on Maiden (4 melee + pet probably is a bit much, 3 or fewer + pet would be acceptable).
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Once we get into SSC, how do pets handle things? How much of the BM dps comes from the pets ability to cause damage, or does the scaling of SS cover that on its own?
Variable dependent upon fight (Lurker and Karathress are bad for pets, I'm told, and would consequently have much lower pet dps than other fights). Likewise, variable dependent upon pet. Certain fights allow you to stack the uberstack of scorpid poison, which could easily approach 40-50% of your total damage output by itself (not counting claw/white damage in addition to poison), whereas there are fights where a scorpid will do crappy damage (hydross, for one) and a ravager/cat would be superior. Generally, I would say no less than 15-20% and no more than 50% of your total dps for a given fight; obviously it can vary wildly.
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
What gem/stat priorities do BM hunters look for, and what changes in my gear/set up would you suggest for either a respec to BM, or for keeping current Marks spec? Can you point me to a really nicely set up BM on armory? Thanks!
Go with AGI gems (delicate living rubies and whatever the new 10 agi gem is - delicate spinel?). They provide more crit than ap/crit gems (the tanzanite one) while providing the same amount of AP; additionally, they scale with BoK.

I'd recommend checking out Howitzer (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...yon&n=Howitzer) or Djinn (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...+Skull&n=Djinn) as good examples of BM hunters with top notch gear/spec.

Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Oh Edit: And what shot rotation is considered more common for BM?
Honestly, this question has been asked so many times that I'm just going to say read through the threads to find the answer. I realize this sounds snippy and I hope you don't take offense, but seriously, I think this has been asked at least a dozen times in the past month in this thread alone. Reading through the thread will give you lots of other useful information that you didn't ask about, anyway.
#906SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Ranalis
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Honestly, Howitzer's meter post is the best empirical evidence that's posted in a convenient place. Try this: get the guild to allow the least geared hunter to go BM (as long as he's competent enough to play the spec) and then see what the numbers are. If a poorly geared BM hunter keeps up with well geared MM hunters, what are they going to complain about?
I'd second this combo as a good way to convince MM hunters. My situation:

I'm the guild MT, and specced protection. I couldn't farm to save my life as prot. I leveled a hunter. Specced BM and liked it a lot. Hit 70, starting thinking seriously about "how" to do DPS (and applied analysis seen on EJ primarily) and which sort of gear/spec made the most sense. Ran several instances with various specs. Decided partially for aesthetic reasons to go BM (I love the idea of a hunter pet as a serious extension of the hunter themselves, and the synergy between the hunter and the pet). Found some basic macros, thought about how to spec my pet, etc.

Found to my shock and amusement that I now blow away our full KZ MM hunter and our full tailoring lock on most KZ fights, and am very competitive over the course of a full clear in blues. I got my first epic weapon yesterday evening and my lead got even larger.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much when you read it on a forum, but if you can convince ONE hunter to spec BM for ONE raid (pay for it if you want) I'm quite sure they'll all be amazed. Our MM hunter was just beside himself watching my blues/greens alt blow him completely away with very few good gems/enchants. I think he'll be BM by the end of the day.

Good luck.
#907SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Illy
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Go with AGI gems (delicate living rubies and whatever the new 10 agi gem is - delicate spinel?). They provide more crit than ap/crit gems (the tanzanite one) while providing the same amount of AP; additionally, they scale with BoK.
As a fairly new poster I've been spending a lot of my time re-reading old threads. I've read recently that Agi gems are the way to go but when going back to try and find where this consensus was reached I'm not seeing the same thing in those threads.

For MM and Surv, yes, older threads seemed to say that Agi gems are superior but when it came to BM those threads were less in agreement. The point was made that for BM, +AP gems may be the better option since crit only increases the up-time of KC on your pet, and that it only takes around 25% crit or so for that option to be available most of the fight. Straight AP, however, increases base damage of your pet as well as KC damage, so stacking it seemed a better route for BM.
#908SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by Illy View Post
As a fairly new poster I've been spending a lot of my time re-reading old threads. I've read recently that Agi gems are the way to go but when going back to try and find where this consensus was reached I'm not seeing the same thing in those threads.

For MM and Surv, yes, older threads seemed to say that Agi gems are superior but when it came to BM those threads were less in agreement. The point was made that for BM, +AP gems may be the better option since crit only increases the up-time of KC on your pet, and that it only takes around 25% crit or so for that option to be available most of the fight. Straight AP, however, increases base damage of your pet as well as KC damage, so stacking it seemed a better route for BM.
Like everything else in Hunter gearing, it depends on what your current level of gear is. I know, that with my Kara level of gear I'm better off as a full BM Hunter using +Agility gems over +AP. The difference is very minute, but it is there. Your mileage may vary.

Crit rate also helps regenerate focus for your pet with Go For the Throat, don't discount that.
#909SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Daenerys
Originally Posted by Elvandir View Post
The talon adds 40 damage to each damaging shot. (does this apply to Auto, as it is technically a "damaging shot"). So for 6 sec you do an extra 40 damage per steady (worst case).

40 damage / 0.3 (steady shot scaling factor) = 133.3 RAP
2.0 attack speed (assumed)
6 sec duration
Maximum of 4 steadys
160 extra damage
26.6 DPS increase from steady alone (best case)

More realiticly you are going to get 3 steadys per proc so
120 extra damage
20 DPS boost...

/disclaimer
Rough numbers only, and I'm low on coffee
/enddisclaimer
Going back to a topic from page 28 (I think), have any BM Hunters spent any time with the Talon of Al'ar? I let a fellow guildie get this last night because he's SV and uses Arcane a helluva lot more than I do right now as BM, but I'm wondering if I should grab the next one. On the one hand, BMs get a lot of shots, so the benefit of the trinket is great, but on the other hand Arcane is rarely found in a typical BM shot rotation. How mana-efficient does this trinket make Arcane, and is it enough such that this trinket is an "omg must have" item for a BM Hunter? I'm leaning towards yes, but I wanted to get some other opinions. Thanks!
#910SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Elicit
Just a quick question. I've been putting some serious thought into spec'ing BM lately. The only thing thats really been holding me back is my hit rate atm. Without Surefooted I currently have 7.17%. Just wondering would the 1.69% loss in hit be made up for with the potential dps gain from switching to BM on boss fights? Sorry if something like this has already been answered but I just wanted an opinion from established BM hunters.
#911SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1lilwolfe
Spent some time this afternoon fighting my crappy work connection to backread the thread. Think I have a handle on the rotation thing but something caused some alarm.

At best, my latency is at 180ms and it hovers usually around the 200ms mark. How much is that going to affect my ability to do things correctly?
#912SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Osse
You asked for Mag.... here is Mag, a bit crappy kill though.

http://www.chillend.nl/epeen/Magtheridon7.6/

1) Misdirection didnt work and I got hit for 18k at the start of phase 2
2) Shammy didnt drop spell dmg totem after I got ressed like... 2-3 mins later so the first scorpid poison didnt tick that much
3) I ran out of mana because paladins didnt buff wisdom after I got ressed
4) After I got ressed the scorpid poison obviously ticked for less than it could


Dont think the poison gets 300% damage from banish thingy, tried it a few times on our wipes (yes, wipes, bloody clickers).

Reckon I could have beaten million damage and +1500 dps if I didnt die to the pull. -.-

Got rank 4 poison up to 792 with agi food and major agi pot btw.

And yes, I was clicking.
#913SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1AndrewCarr
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Like everything else in Hunter gearing, it depends on what your current level of gear is. I know, that with my Kara level of gear I'm better off as a full BM Hunter using +Agility gems over +AP. The difference is very minute, but it is there. Your mileage may vary.

Crit rate also helps regenerate focus for your pet with Go For the Throat, don't discount that.


Yeah, you'd have to plug your gear into a spreadsheet to see clearly which is the best upgrade. I just believe the general conclusion was that +16 AP gems were only possible to be superior to +8 Agi for BM spec. I think it also helps to include Kings in +agi gem calculations; a lot of people ignore this to their detriment.

Also, I've convinced one hunter to respec BM. He's well geared, but plays mostly on his healer(it's usually needed more) so getting him in for raids is difficult when he's considered roughly equivalent to a bad warlock(which I'm trying to disprove). Hopefully once we get our damage meters sorted out(they've not all been updated/have been out of sync for a week) he'll get a good chance to go into Gruul or something and melt face.
#914SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Spent some time this afternoon fighting my crappy work connection to backread the thread. Think I have a handle on the rotation thing but something caused some alarm.

At best, my latency is at 180ms and it hovers usually around the 200ms mark. How much is that going to affect my ability to do things correctly?
It will have an effect, but not as much as you'd think. If your latency is stable, 200ms is not a major issue. You can adjust your manual timing to account for that with no problems (I play between 200-300 ms when raiding). However, if your latency tends to be somewhat flighty and variable, it will cause problems. Spikes in latency cause dropped shots. The upside is that BM loses marginally less damage than MM does from disruptions to the rotation, since the rotation is not centered around multiple cooldowns (i.e. arcane and multi).

If you understand the mechanics on the rotation, you should be all set to give it a try. If you can easily maintain an MM rotation with your latency, BM shouldn't be a real issue, in my opinion. Also, sorry for being snippy this morning, I was a little grumpy earlier.
#915SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1ooter
Hey, sorry if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it and it's a really big thread. Is there a consistant way to do Lurker as BM without pet dieing? I'm having pretty big issues.
#916SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by ooter View Post
Hey, sorry if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it and it's a really big thread. Is there a consistant way to do Lurker as BM without pet dieing? I'm having pretty big issues.
Start with this post, there are a couple in a row in this thread that have some good tips. Hope this helps.
Hunting Hunters...
#917SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Daenerys
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
You asked for Mag.... here is Mag, a bit crappy kill though.

http://www.chillend.nl/epeen/Magtheridon7.6/

1) Misdirection didnt work and I got hit for 18k at the start of phase 2
2) Shammy didnt drop spell dmg totem after I got ressed like... 2-3 mins later so the first scorpid poison didnt tick that much
3) I ran out of mana because paladins didnt buff wisdom after I got ressed
4) After I got ressed the scorpid poison obviously ticked for less than it could


Dont think the poison gets 300% damage from banish thingy, tried it a few times on our wipes (yes, wipes, bloody clickers).

Reckon I could have beaten million damage and +1500 dps if I didnt die to the pull. -.-

Got rank 4 poison up to 792 with agi food and major agi pot btw.

And yes, I was clicking.
I kept 5 poison stacks up on Morogrim and my pet DPS was something like 40% of my total. Granted I wasn't personally going all out because I was playing around with maximizing pet focus (trying to see how much Claw I can get away with), but still, it was pretty incredible. His total damage was 200k, and for the first couple minutes the 5-stack wasn't trinketed/TBWed; had to pull the pet back and reapply for the second half of the fight to get the good ticks pumping.

This will be nerfed...it's retardedly good.
#918SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Hopefire

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much when you read it on a forum, but if you can convince ONE hunter to spec BM for ONE raid (pay for it if you want) I'm quite sure they'll all be amazed. Our MM hunter was just beside himself watching my blues/greens alt blow him completely away with very few good gems/enchants. I think he'll be BM by the end of the day.


Hunters in my guild did not think that BM was in any way viable.

I had been a Paladin, but after 1 1/2 years of healing, I wanted to DPS. So, my guild laughed at me when I rerolled Hunter. I spent my two week re-app period as MM spec, and did decent on DPS meters. I made full member again just as 2.1 hit, and with nothing further in my way, I went BM.

Since going BM, I've generally destroyed everything except our two best Rogues on the dps meters. Some fights, they get beaten too. I've been L70 for a month now. I'm still the worst geared Hunter in the guild. And since I went BM, we've had exactly one boss kill where a MM or Survival Hunter beat me in dps - and I was ahead when the boss died, he went to help kill sheep, while I /cry'd over the body of my pet, who had died far too many times. Fight after fight, in TK, SSC, etc, BM has been above them. A few minutes ago, I was #2 on the damage meters for Magtheridon - only our best Rogue was ahead. I was clicking cubes, and I beat two Rogues who got to stay on boss the entire kill by a large margin. The other Hunters? Around #7 and #10.

No one wants to switch to BM though. One is Survival, and that's cool. One is MM as a PvP spec, and he freely admits he's probably gimping his PvE dps by a bit, which is fine in my books. The other two: one doesn't believe BM will scale well as gear gets better, so doesn't want to bother; the other thinks pets are worthless, and doesn't want to manage a pet. I find it more annoying than I probably should.
#919SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
I'd say that the best way to get people to respec is just to try it. Once other Hunters see that you're destroying them on the damage meters or the WWS, they will ask for your help. So far I've gotten 1 Hunter to swap to BM.. hopefully more to follow :p.
#920SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sapa
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
I'd say that the best way to get people to respec is just to try it. Once other Hunters see that you're destroying them on the damage meters or the WWS, they will ask for your help. So far I've gotten 1 Hunter to swap to BM.. hopefully more to follow :p.
As CL i gave order to my hunters to just try BM spec, on my expenses if they don't do bigger damage.
I think, no one wants to see MM ever again lol ^^
#921SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Osse
All hunters in the guild are BM now here as well. :p
#922SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Trieste
We are all BM too.
#923SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1okla
Our second hunter would be bm aswell, if he didnt bug out his stables and lost all pets but 1.

Im sure he will change soon aswell, im contemplating picking up a scorpid, for the omg look at that pets dmg effect. Just dont want to give up another one of my pets.

Im really liking bm, I tried bm before the patch, didnt like it much (thought thinking about the pet was to tedious) so i went surv when the patch hit live. Didnt take long before an alt hunter draw my attention back to bm spec.

Being used to alll the perks of MM it took a little change of style, now, 2 weeks later im very fond of it, and found myself topping meters, even doing well with a pet without buffs, or without a feral druid in the group. The one thing i miss most is the extra range, somehow i feel its a must have for hunters, but giving up that much crit damage just isnt going to work

Regards,

Orckla
#924SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Start with this post, there are a couple in a row in this thread that have some good tips. Hope this helps.
Hunting Hunters...
Yesterday I did Lurker, I just left my pet out, he doesn't die from the splash, takes damage and goes to 10% or so but didn't die. I just put a mend pet and jumped into water every time, and it was ok.
#925SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Melkunie
All Bm. And yes, it IS sexy to have 3 x stacked FI up and see hunters top 3 dps on bosses and trash packs.
#926SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1rebjorn
I really like BM nowadays. I liked it before, and I like it even better now.

In theory and in reality my cat alone is out-dpsing players. Not well geared players, but still.
#927SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1lilwolfe
No problem Welshy, I took no offense. I do all my forum reading and research from work and the net connection here is so awful that reading through extremely long threads is torturous. The afternoon lag cleared up a bit and I got through it. (Too bad I can't pull myself away from the game at home to check forums... haha.)

So last night I respecced back to BM. I feel like my RAP is a bit low now, but maybe that's just because I was used to seeing my MM numbers. I had a bank full of gems to cut, and asked for ones that boosted agility. Downside is they were all orange/green type gems so the agi is split with other stats.

I picked up a Wind Serpent from Netherstorm because after careful thought, I decided I didn't want to fall in love with scorpids/poison only to have it stolen away from me in a few weeks when blizzard fixes it.

Even just with my farming crap trash for Netherwing quests, I noticed a huge jump in my dps. I run with recap and normally sat around 500-ish during farming runs, I hovered most of the night at 700.

I've got Mag and Gruul's lair tonight so I am excited to see how it pans out with full raid buffs and goodness. Just a quick double check on stuff:

I'll be resist tanking the shaman, the windserpent can go smack at him just fine right? (Saw above that pets weren't triggering his knockback.) I know I've used serpents sting on him in the past, so the lightning breath should still cause damage, right?

Gruul, no big deal. He can go play with the dude and I just move him around out of cave-ins and don't worry about if he ends up standing next to someone on shatter?

Mag should be piece of cake as he can just dps on him the whole time right?

Thanks again for the help, I soooo trust you guys over the normal forums.
#928SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Trohck
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
I'll be resist tanking the shaman, the windserpent can go smack at him just fine right? (Saw above that pets weren't triggering his knockback.) I know I've used serpents sting on him in the past, so the lightning breath should still cause damage, right?
Yes, it can DPS the shaman, you'll need to toss it a heal during the arcane explosion ability. However I'd recommend just sending it at the assist target instead, moving on when it dies, etc. Your pet will need 0 healing for the Priest and Warlock, which frees you up to generate more threat on the shaman.

As for Gruul and Mag, yes, they are straightforward.
#929SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Anyone have a good way to tell when your scorpid stack is ticking for good damage? I'd like to know whether or not to let it expire and refresh it as my CDs are coming up, but I don't want to inturupt it unless it's a weaker stack.

On Tidewalker last night, I was able to get my lvl 69 scorpid's stack to tick at just over 600 when I did everything just right. That was flasked, fooded, pally buffed, Bladefist's, but without my Hourglass proc. One one attempt he pulled 371 dps.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...x4zbz1&s=5-484
#930SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Bonester
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Anyone have a good way to tell when your scorpid stack is ticking for good damage? I'd like to know whether or not to let it expire and refresh it as my CDs are coming up, but I don't want to inturupt it unless it's a weaker stack.
I use quartz cast bar mod (http://files.wowace.com/ scroll down to Quartz). It brings up sorrens-like countdown timers just above the cast bar. It picks up your pets scorpid poison and has the current stack count in brackets. The bar itself is quite small, but I'm pretty sure it's scalable in options somewhere.
#931SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Xon
For another data point, I had my stable bug (using 4 pets). Simply abandoning my fresh level 70 scorp and relogging, allowed me to interact with the stables again.

Stinks, but not gamebreaking. That's what I get for playing with a bug.
#932SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Hopefire
I continue to be unsuccessful as to convincing my fellow Hunters to spec BM; they’re long term MM Hunters. I beat them hollow on DPS charts, so it’s not that they haven’t seen how well BM does in DPS. However, they have two primary issues. Firstly, they believe that the pet is more trouble than its worth, even after 2.1, and secondly, they believe that MM will scale better than BM. I’ve shown that I can keep my pet up without issue on most fights. I’ve tried pointing out that MM might scale better as gear improves, but BM currently does better. No luck convincing them so far.

Is there anyone who’s done the math to show that BM will scale better?

Mind you, if BM doesn’t scale so well, I’ll respec to whatever does scale better when I get to the point where the other spec would do better. I’m not married to any given spec, I just go for what gives me the most dps.
#933SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1AndrewCarr
It seems like SS scales incredibly well, and won't Steady Shot scale better than Arcane Shot, eventually making their points against BM scaling kinda pointless?
#934SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
You can lead a horse to water, but it's awfully hard to drown him. Just because you have a host of anecdotal, empirical, and theoretical evidence doesn't mean that they will believe it. It's unfortunate for them, but the longer you pound them on the meters the more tiresome getting beat will become. If they have any pride whatsoever, they'll come around.
#935SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Trohck
Originally Posted by AndrewCarr View Post
It seems like SS scales incredibly well, and won't Steady Shot scale better than Arcane Shot, eventually making their points against BM scaling kinda pointless?
Steady scales with RAP * 0.2 and weapon damage. Arcane scales with RAP * 0.15. However, Arcane ignores armor, so some of the scaling on Steady Shot will be mitigated whereas Arcane Shot will not.
#936SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Xoran
Very simple addon idea:

Small window showing damage done by last poison tick and # of stacks like xxx / x.
(I don't like my EavesDrop being clobbered with all the pet data)
#937SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
I'd love such an addon, and I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to develop. Just make a window, find the last instance of "suffers xx damage from yy's Scorpid Poison(z)" in the combat log, and then put it in the window. I think it would help a lot... because I really dislike putting on SCTD when my pet is attacking at 1 attack per second plus instant casts plus my attacks. It spams my screen badly : /.
#938SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1beathoven
Managed to grab and level a scorpid over the last 2 days and brought him to SSC on Karathress and Morogrim.

My first impression: In fights where you don't need to switch your target often, e.g. Morogrim the scorpid can be really nice. It requires a lot more micromanagement and proper timing to get those nice poison stacks, but i managed it on our Morogrim kill:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...x1&s=4666-5179

Mind you, if you look at our Maulgar kill where i wasn't able to get the high stacks the scorpid performed actually a lot worse than a ravager or a windserpent.

So imo from a risk vs. reward point of view: Yes, the scorpid can deliver more damage than any other pet. But you have to basically be a BM hunter and your chance to screw it up is fairly high, which will result in quite a bit less overall damage than with other pets.

Also, being a Beast Master it really makes sense that if you can handle your pet properly that you will shine, which the scorpid would be a perfect example for.

I hope to get my 2nd Tier 5 piece soon so i won't rely as much on a SP or Mend Pet as i do at the moment.

Read ya, Wara
#939SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1helias126
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
Managed to grab and level a scorpid over the last 2 days and brought him to SSC on Karathress and Morogrim.

My first impression: In fights where you don't need to switch your target often, e.g. Morogrim the scorpid can be really nice. It requires a lot more micromanagement and proper timing to get those nice poison stacks, but i managed it on our Morogrim kill:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...x1&s=4666-5179

Mind you, if you look at our Maulgar kill where i wasn't able to get the high stacks the scorpid performed actually a lot worse than a ravager or a windserpent.

So imo from a risk vs. reward point of view: Yes, the scorpid can deliver more damage than any other pet. But you have to basically be a BM hunter and your chance to screw it up is fairly high, which will result in quite a bit less overall damage than with other pets.

Also, being a Beast Master it really makes sense that if you can handle your pet properly that you will shine, which the scorpid would be a perfect example for.

I hope to get my 2nd Tier 5 piece soon so i won't rely as much on a SP or Mend Pet as i do at the moment.

Read ya, Wara
Scorpid did 604 dps (301k daamage) on tidewalker???...You got to be kidding me.
#940SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Shandara
Originally Posted by helias126 View Post
Scorpid did 604 dps (301k daamage) on tidewalker???...You got to be kidding me.
It's a perfect 'pet-friendly' fight and with a good timing on the trinkets etc (and a nice party setup/raid buffs) the pet gets absolutely sick levels of spell-damage. I'm enjoying it while it lasts
#941SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Maa
Hi, I just tried out scorpid too. Here are some fancy ticks :P

1694/tick = tsunami proc + fi + brooch + BW + deaden (boss ability that increases damage done by 100%)

http://caleb.is-a-god.com/1694tick.jpg

848/tick = tsunami proc + fi + brooch + BW Getting this is only luck based, I usually don’t wait more then 15-20 sec for tsunami proc, if it procs within that time, it can boost the damage really nice.

http://caleb.is-a-god.com/848tick.jpg
http://caleb.is-a-god.com/848_2_tick.jpg

Only problem is that you have to wait for tsunami to proc which can be a bit of lost dps, but even only with fi + brooch + bw I can get 618/ticks

Also what others already mentioned is a bit concerning too, which is that FI is not up 24/7 since you are turning off claw autocast, and you only depend on normal melee attacks of your pet.

I don’t have any wws since I can’t be bothered with cutting off fights from combat log all time time, and then parsing them separately. If someone knows a workaround for that, it would be very much appreciated. Also can anyone suggest me any addon that displays DPS accurately (pet+my own) in real time, because sws is totally inaccurate .
#942SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
I'd love such an addon, and I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to develop. Just make a window, find the last instance of "suffers xx damage from yy's Scorpid Poison(z)" in the combat log, and then put it in the window. I think it would help a lot... because I really dislike putting on SCTD when my pet is attacking at 1 attack per second plus instant casts plus my attacks. It spams my screen badly : /.
Go into SCT options and set the damage filter for anything below about 150 damage, that'll knock out the spam from the small pet attacks and allow you to see your scorpid stacks (probably only once it's over 2-3 stacks, but that's really when it matters anyway). By the by, this will stop you from seeing ticks of explosive trap and volley, but eh, it's worth it.

You can also do the same thing to block spam from a shadow priest (numerous small heals/power gains). Try it out, being able to use SCT to see stacks is really helpful.
#943SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
Thanks so much, I'll try that. Never knew there was an option like that . Shadow Priests, while I love em, are also annoying with mana and health gain spam, so your hint will be doubly helpful ^^.

@ Maa: Those are some very impressive ticks you got there. In your final analysis, do you believe that the loss of Frenzy / FI uptime is enough to counter the ridiculous potential damage of the Scorpid? Will you be using the Scorpid often? Also, general UI question: Which addon are you using to get melee-oriented debuffs (Sunder, Mark, EW, etc.) to show near the bottom of your screen (near the cast timer)? I'm referring to your 1600 tick picture.
#944SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Maa
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
Thanks so much, I'll try that. Never knew there was an option like that . Shadow Priests, while I love em, are also annoying with mana and health gain spam, so your hint will be doubly helpful ^^.

@ Maa: Those are some very impressive ticks you got there. In your final analysis, do you believe that the loss of Frenzy / FI uptime is enough to counter the ridiculous potential damage of the Scorpid? Will you be using the Scorpid often? Also, general UI question: Which addon are you using to get melee-oriented debuffs (Sunder, Mark, EW, etc.) to show near the bottom of your screen (near the cast timer)? I'm referring to your 1600 tick picture.
I'd use scorpid no doubt. FI is still up quite often, but you can easily notice some bad streaks where pet doesn't crit. A solution could be manually casting claw, and being very aware of the exct CD on scorpid poison, have to do some more testing on this.

The addon you are asking is called DebuffFilter, you can get it here: http://www-en.curse-gaming.com/downloads/details/3574/
#945SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Trident
Here's a little macro that saves you having to manually click pet skills when you pop BW:

#showtooltip Bestial Wrath
/cast Bestial Wrath
/petautocaston [pet:Scorpid] Scorpid Poison
/petautocastoff [pet:scorpid] Claw
#946SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Trohck
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
So imo from a risk vs. reward point of view: Yes, the scorpid can deliver more damage than any other pet. But you have to basically be a BM hunter and your chance to screw it up is fairly high, which will result in quite a bit less overall damage than with other pets.
Can you explain why you believe this is only good for BM hunters? Compared to other pets, I would expect Scorpids to be excellent for MM or Survival hunters. MM/Surv specs have an advantage to pet spell damage due to Survival Instincts, Lightning Reflexes, TSA, or Master Marksman all of which improve RAP. Scorpid poison doesn't receive any benefit from the extra crit provided by Ferocity. While it's harder to maintain a 5-stack without Animal Handler for +4% hit, I don't expect the impact to be that drastic.

Originally Posted by Maa View Post
I'd use scorpid no doubt. FI is still up quite often, but you can easily notice some bad streaks where pet doesn't crit. A solution could be manually casting claw, and being very aware of the exct CD on scorpid poison, have to do some more testing on this.
My solution is to have two macros. One that does Steady+KC and one that does Steady+KC+Claw. I bind them to mousewheel up and mousewheel down so they're easy to spam. I use mousewheel up by default. Then, when I see that my pet has a high focus (enough to afford a claw) I use mousewheel down.
#947SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Lactose
BM Hunter = Bestial Wrath
MM / Survivals Hunter's bonus AP doesn't come close to that.
#948SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
BM Hunter = Bestial Wrath
MM / Survivals Hunter's bonus AP doesn't come close to that.
Moreover, having Unleashed Fury is another 20% scaling factor on scorpid poison. With FI, BW, and UF you're talking something like 73% additional damage BEFORE even considering AP/spell damage. MM/SV simply don't have the talents to make Scorpid Poison do crazy-go-nuts damage like BM does.
#949SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Taliesin
Just adding anecdotal evidence.

5/5 T4 plus other various high-level items. I decided to respec to BM after changing to MM nearly as soon as I hit 70. Previously, I was in the top 5 in the guild on DPS for certain fights, but others would drop top 8-10 (Gruul comes to mind, being beaten by a few melee and a couple mages).

It's a world of difference. I simply destroy the damage meters now. Some aspects of the spec make life simpler (shot rotation is now simplified to steady/auto). 3 sets of clickable buffs keeps me buffed 65% of a fight. I use abacus of violent odds with blood fury, rapid fire with bloodlust brooch, and TBW. Obviously, pet management is a key concern now, whereas before it was lower on the priority list. I've had to re-learn some fights such as lurker, whereas I could before simply jump in the water with pet dismissed, I must now run the circle because the pet gets hit with spout no matter where he may be in the water.

All in all, a very good buff to otherwise solid dps with benefits for PVP as well.
#950SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Odeanathus
Honestly... Mend Pet + dive.... My pet can easily continue fighting lurker during a spout...
#951SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Trohck
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Moreover, having Unleashed Fury is another 20% scaling factor on scorpid poison. With FI, BW, and UF you're talking something like 73% additional damage BEFORE even considering AP/spell damage. MM/SV simply don't have the talents to make Scorpid Poison do crazy-go-nuts damage like BM does.
I think we're debating different things here. What I'm saying is if that if you are a MM/Surv hunter, a Scorpid is a good pet, in response to this:
Yes, the scorpid can deliver more damage than any other pet. But you have to basically be a BM hunter
Yes, there are tons of buffs that BM gives to Scorpids, and a BM Scorpid will do more damage than an MM/Surv - no question about it. However, the vast majority of BM buffs scale other pets equally well, and in isolated cases better (Ferocity) or worse (Animal Handler). Because the scaling is nearly identical between pets, the process for choosing a BM pet isn't very different from choosing an MM/Surv pet. If Scorpids are the best BM pet, they're likely the best MM/Surv pet as well.
#952SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
I honestly don't think the thought process is the same for MM and BM in terms of pet selection. The major factors that make scorpids so ridiculous for BM (until they're nerfed, at least) have to do with the way dot mechanics work - no other pets will receive the massive scaling from BW for a long duration dot like scorpids do. So no, BM buffs do not universally scale all pets (or rather, they scale MOST pets equally with one exception).

While scorpids may actually be the best pet for MM/SV, I'm not sure I agree with your line of reasoning for reaching that conclusion. Scorpids are an aberration that may represent a local maxima for BM but not MM/SV, simply due to the way BW affects scorpid poison.
#953SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Glaurong
Yes, the scorpid can deliver more damage than any other pet.
Not sure I can agree with this if you aren't BM. Scorpid poison allows you to indefinitely extend a number of temporary buffs, a part of this is stacking percentage damage mods. BM allows you to stack FI, BW and maintain them almost indefinitely. This is simply not possible as marks or survival.
#954SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Trohck
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
no other pets will receive the massive scaling from BW for a long duration dot like scorpids do.
I think this is my fundamental error. I thought BW bonus disappeared from the DoT once BW finished.
#955SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Illy
Going back to gems, if Agi generally are better why don't more BM hunters use +35 Agi on their weapon over Savagery? The ratio is the same as Agi gems to their AP counterparts (or rather, the easily attainable ones), so if the rationale works for gems then +35 Agi would be the superior choice for weapon enchant as well?
#956SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Shaile
Originally Posted by Illy View Post
Going back to gems, if Agi generally are better why don't more BM hunters use +35 Agi on their weapon over Savagery? The ratio is the same as Agi gems to their AP counterparts (or rather, the easily attainable ones), so if the rationale works for gems then +35 Agi would be the superior choice for weapon enchant as well?
because they simply aren't. for a raiding BM hunter AP IS BETTER. ap is infinitely better than crit for a BM hunter due to the way ap scales our pets dmg as well as our own. focus isn't even close to being as important now as it was in the happy WS LB spam days. our pets white dmg is 80-90% of the pets damage (cept scorpids, but they dont scale with crit either anyway).
the difference in scaling with BoK when using all AP gems instead of agi gems is not worth taking agi gems over AP.
haste is useless for BM hunters and doesn't come close to ap boost procs unless you got the exactly right +haste gear to make your current weapon that you wont upgrade in a long time fast enough.
what would be awesome is if someone took the task of making a table of all end game ranged weapons and the required permanent +haste (id account for imp hawk too) to make them 1.6 or 1.7 depending on how well you are at timing.
heck, i might do it now that im not raiding anymore, although it wouldn't be pretty.
now all we need is blizzard to make our GCD 1 sec just like druids and rogues for even more keyboard smashing and dps.
#957SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
because they simply aren't. for a raiding BM hunter AP IS BETTER. ap is infinitely better than crit for a BM hunter due to the way ap scales our pets dmg as well as our own. focus isn't even close to being as important now as it was in the happy WS LB spam days. our pets white dmg is 80-90% of the pets damage (cept scorpids, but they dont scale with crit either anyway).
the difference in scaling with BoK when using all AP gems instead of agi gems is not worth taking agi gems over AP.
haste is useless for BM hunters and doesn't come close to ap boost procs unless you got the exactly right +haste gear to make your current weapon that you wont upgrade in a long time fast enough.
what would be awesome is if someone took the task of making a table of all end game ranged weapons and the required permanent +haste (id account for imp hawk too) to make them 1.6 or 1.7 depending on how well you are at timing.
heck, i might do it now that im not raiding anymore, although it wouldn't be pretty.
now all we need is blizzard to make our GCD 1 sec just like druids and rogues for even more keyboard smashing and dps.
I have a feeling your post is going to wind up in the Banhammer, but before it does I'd like to point out that your assertion that 80-90% of a pet's DPS is "white" is incorrect. My modeling shows that a focus dump special ability (claw, gore, lightning breath) and Kill Command make up roughly 50% of total pet damage for a BM Hunter. If you are interested in the math behind that, just download my spreadsheet. I have the equations laid out pretty clearly.

Also, using those same equations and ones for Hunter DPS I show my total DPS (pet + Hunter) is better off with +Agility gems than with +AP. I am a 41/20/0 Beastmaster Hunter. You can disagree with me, but please provide the calculations to show it. I do believe for low levels of gear +AP is superior, but raiding Hunters are going to see more value from Agility, and it's pretty much true for all specs.
#958SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Ullgenser
I'm going to go with "the big banner declaring your poor choice of hosting method" is not going to help.
Indeed /facepalm
-
Incase it held any information worth a mention I concluded that the pet which was a level 69 Cat did 64,87% white damage. Link two posts down. Apologies.
BM run counting from start of second wave until finnish. ~1350 Attackpower, 25% crit. Pet had LotP.
Spec 41\20

Last edited by Ullgenser : 06/09/07 at 6:49 AM. Reason: Sorting out a trainwreck of a post.
#959SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Northerner
I'm going to go with "the big banner declaring your poor choice of hosting method" is not going to help.
#960SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Lactose
Link to his image:
http://www.imagedump.com/pics/503967.jpg
#961SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by Ullgenser View Post
Indeed /facepalm
-
Incase it held any information worth a mention I concluded that the pet which was a level 69 Cat did 64,87% white damage. Link two posts down. Apologies.
BM run counting from start of second wave until finnish. ~1350 Attackpower, 25% crit. Pet had LotP.
Spec 41\20
I stand corrected. I should have realized that buffs are going to scale white damage, but do nothing for the non +Spell Damage abilities (LB, Scorpid Poison). I really shouldn't post late at night without thinking things through.
#962SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1dazdingo
This morning I leveling my scorpid pet and noticed a drastic difference in its Poison damage, was it ninja nerfed? Can anyone else confirm/deny this?

The first tick still dictates total damage though
#963SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1dazdingo
This morning I leveling my scorpid pet and noticed a drastic difference in its Poison damage, was it ninja nerfed? Can anyone else confirm/deny this?

The first tick still dictates total damage though

Edit: Maybe its just something to do with the Shaleskin Flayers next to Dr. Boom
#964SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lumi
Has anyone been able to be BM on Kael? Its been kinda fruitless for me as I can't use a pet on the Astromancer or Thaladred. Kael also kills my pet faster than I can respond most of the time.
#965SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Djinn
Originally Posted by Lumi View Post
Has anyone been able to be BM on Kael? Its been kinda fruitless for me as I can't use a pet on the Astromancer or Thaladred. Kael also kills my pet faster than I can respond most of the time.
A fellow hunter and I are BM on kael i haven't found it "Fruitless". The only time you can't use a pet is during phase 1 on 2 of the Advisor's. Once phase 3 starts yes both of those advisors will be up again but you can just send your pet in on Kael. I have no clue of your kill order in phase 3, but if you are killing whatever the melee is on to give the 25% physical damage buff then chances are you wont ever be attacking Astro/Darkener.

Edit: Not sure how your pet dies from Kael, during phase 4 just move your pet out of the blast waves, and during Phase 5 only send your pet in once Kael is on the ground.

Last edited by Djinn : 06/09/07 at 7:10 PM.
#966SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lumi
Well I guess what happens is I'm shooting down the Astromancer and Kael does his AoE stuff and my pet dies if I leave him Kael with myself on the other side of the room. Also MM hunters seem to be getting a ton more from that bow than I was. I guess I could try it again, but I really felt like the weakest link.
#967SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Casander
Originally Posted by dazdingo View Post
This morning I leveling my scorpid pet and noticed a drastic difference in its Poison damage, was it ninja nerfed? Can anyone else confirm/deny this?

The first tick still dictates total damage though
I just tested the poison with no buffs different (just self buffs) from what I usually have. With self buffs, my poison before your mentioning of the possible nerf ticked for 75 per single stacking of the poison (375 total) and it ticked the same. They did not nerf the poison. Don't scare me like that! =)
#968SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Djinn
Originally Posted by Lumi View Post
Well I guess what happens is I'm shooting down the Astromancer and Kael does his AoE stuff and my pet dies if I leave him Kael with myself on the other side of the room. Also MM hunters seem to be getting a ton more from that bow than I was. I guess I could try it again, but I really felt like the weakest link.
What are your MM hunters attacking?

I don't see why you are on Astro, you should be on a target that melee attacks for sunders/FF/Curse and Bow Buff.

What AoE are you talking about that kills your pet? the Blast waves that kael sets off around the room? or the disorient aoe?
#969SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Howitzer
I've been having some unpleasant times with BM on Kael'Thas so far. Other than that, its been great.
#970SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Kash
I think that TK isn't the best BM instance

Voidreaver: immune
Solarian: Pet gets debuff
Alar: Long ways
Kael: flying phase and so on

Don't know how it is in BT / hyjal
#971SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1cipro
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I've been having some unpleasant times with BM on Kael'Thas so far. Other than that, its been great.
is that why you're spec'd marks!? :P
#972SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Intermission
Originally Posted by Kash View Post
I think that TK isn't the best BM instance

Voidreaver: immune
Solarian: Pet gets debuff
Alar: Long ways
Kael: flying phase and so on

Don't know how it is in BT / hyjal
I dont agree with this.

VoidReaver I have topped dps (with and without a shadow priest) every time since 2.1 with max AR/Avoidance/Mend Pet. A SP means you dont need to mend pet as much, and saves you on mana pots however (but Nethergon Energy is cheap anyway).

Every Solarian kill I have topped dps (since 2.1) as BM spec. Max AR as well as healers using an /assist Solarian macro means that my pet is never in danger of dying. Pets can get the initial cast of WoTA, but its safe just to leave it in there and let it jump to another melee, then they can scoot it off to the tanks (I havent tried Eyes of the Beast).

Alar, my pet can dps 2 out of every 4 positions he lands in phase1, as well as dps the adds in phase1. In phase two, I am either on Alar or add killing duty. If im on Alar, its just like Gruul, get ready to pull him out of a Flame Patch. If im on adds, he only takes 4k (or a full resist) from the AoE death. Intimidation is also nice if no rogues are on it to Kidney + let the tank run. Plenty of mana for mend pet as you can FD+drink when he flies up in phase2.

Kael'Thas however, could be argued either way.
Phase1 doesnt matter.
Phase2 I tank the bow. BM is handy to Intimidate it while I grab the staff, or while my healer is grabbing the mace, or simply as an "oh shit no heals" moment.
Phase3 I ranged tank the Engineer (I stand in the bombs, not move, so I can build aggro while the melee go all out on it + Bladeflury the shield). I would generate a bit more threat as MM, but I seem to hold enough as BM anyway. Once he is down its just like phase1 for me, send my pet on Sanguinar and dps whatever I need to.
Phase4 MM would be nice for extra range when nuking birds. Also for higher burst damage during Shock Barrier.
Phase5 MM would be nice again, for the range factor and gravity shift.
#973SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Klorak
Has anyone done simulations on ferocious inspiration uptime? I am specifically interested in knowing how much it is increased when you have a feral druid in your group.

Edit: The same would be interesting for frenzy uptime.
#974SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Lactose
Anyone done any testing on whether or not target specific criteria affect scaling?
I.e. would something with +x AP against Undead give the pet any AP bonus against Undead?
I have a feeling it doesn't, but I haven't seen (or done) any tests.
#975SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Klorak View Post
Has anyone done simulations on ferocious inspiration uptime? I am specifically interested in knowing how much it is increased when you have a feral druid in your group.

Edit: The same would be interesting for frenzy uptime.
It's a straightforward calculation. They both use methods of converse probability (that is, determine what the chances of NOT getting a crit in the duration of the buff; 1 minus that probability is the probability of getting at least 1 crit in the duration, refreshing the buff). They both have the form
1-(1-ChanceCrit)^floor(NumberOfSpecials+BuffDuration/AttackSpeed)
I don't remember exactly what my pet's crit rating is, and I'm at work, so I'm going to guess it's 15% (that might be high, but you can substitute whatever appropriate number you want). With Cobra Reflexes, Frenzy, and SS, pet attack speed is 2.0/(1.30*1.30*1.20)~0.99. I'm going to ignore special attacks for now (I couldn't guess how many specials my pet will use on average in the duration of the buff; note that it's only special attacks that can crit, such as claw and bite, but not scorpid poison, etc).

For FI, uptime in this case would be:
1-(1-0.15)^floor(0+8/0.99+2/1.28)~0.77
About 77% uptime. Note that Frenzy only last 8 seconds after a crit, so I have to account for two different attack speeds. If I add in LotP, it becomes:
1-(1-0.20)^floor(0+8/0.99+2/1.28)~0.87
About 87% uptime. For Frenzy, the calculations are very similar:
1-(1-0.15)^floor(0+8/0.99)~0.73
1-(1-0.20)^floor(0+8/0.99)~0.83
Note that in both cases it happens to be a 10% difference, but don't expect that to be the general rule for all cases, because it's not. Anyway, I'm sure you can use those equations to figure out more accurate numbers (that is, ignore my guesses and assumptions that number of specials is 0).

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 06/11/07 at 9:41 AM. Reason: Correcting math error; thanks Lactose!
#976SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
 Lactose
Your numbers inside the floor function don't make much sense to me. Mind explaning them? =)

Last edited by Lactose : 06/11/07 at 10:29 AM. Reason: Wrong words.
#977SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Sure, no problem (for all I know I goofed them up). I'll show them again for reference:

floor(NumberOfSpecials+BuffDuration/AttackSpeed)

NumberOfSpecials is the number of special attacks that can crit that your pet does during the duration of the buff. That is, if my ravager claws 3 times in 10 seconds, that's three potential crits for which I need to account. BuffDuration is, obviously, the duration of the buff in question. For FI, it's 10 seconds long. For Frenzy, it's 8 seconds. AttackSpeed is your pet's attack speed for the duration of the buff. The goal is to calculate the total number of attacks made that can crit and refresh the buff. Since attacks are discrete, not continuous, I used a floor function (partial attacks don't count for anything) to determine the number of attacks my pet does.

As for the FI uptime calculation, I made the assumption that the pet has Frenzy (this might be where some of the confusion is coming in). I'll break it down:

floor(0+8/0.99+2/1.18)

The zero represents me ignoring special attacks (as I stated, I simply don't know that info off the top of my head). If the pet has BOTH frenzy and FI, a crit will trigger both and they'll have overlapping buff times. Since the pet has frenzy for only 8 seconds, I determine how many attacks it performs during frenzy, then add the number of attacks it performs while NOT under frenzy. Frenzied attack speed is 2.0/(1.30*1.30*1.20)~0.99 (frenzy, SS, Cobra reflexes) whereas non-frenzy attack speed is 2.0/(1.30*1.20)~1.28. Aha, I think I found the error: I calculated non-frenzy attack speed as Cobra Reflexes and Frenzy (denominator=1.30*1.30) whereas it should have been Cobra Reflexes and Serpent's Swiftness (denominator=1.20*1.30). Good catch, I'll correct that.

Edit: While it's important to change for correctness, it doesn't change the result, however, due to the rounding down. floor(2/1.28)=floor(2/1.18)=1
#978SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1lilwolfe
So, my first big, full week of BM raiding. I don't know if I am doing things right, laugh, or if I am just confused and filled with half truths and data from all over. Half the time I hear people say that 'omg bm hunters will top dps for whole raid' or 'I come in number 1 all the time.'

I think my dps improved greatly. With recap on, I see my per fight dps range from 700-900 (sometimes tipping 1000 on really long streaks of crits/etc.) Before, I think I hovered around 500.

Still though, I can't come NEAR our top mage, and there are a few other folks that just consistently pull way ahead; warlocks, some of our top rogues, mages and our enh. shamans that are on top of their game.

I'm using a windserpent, and feel pretty comfortable with the pets in the fight. Gruul he dps'ed all but 2-3x when cave ins were being a pain, so I'd pull him out, tap a quick mend, and then send him back in. On Maulgar, I tanked the shaman in NR, and he just dps'd on him with me. Magtheridon, I had him on Mags the whole time (I was a clicker, so yeah, lost some dps on that but still.)

On gruul, I came in 5th. Last night on Prince in Kara, I came in 2nd (Behind the big mage).

I use steady/auto and keep trinkets and stuff up. I use Core of Arkelos and Bladefists Breath, popping them in and out with FD. Rapid fire when its up and BW when it's up. Orc racial when I know I wont need any healing. During rapid fire, I stop using steady, and use arcane and multi because my Imp Hawk procs so much that I get ahead of the global cooldown if I try to use steady shot. I have NO problem with mana, and haven't run out yet in any fights.

Am I slipping up somewhere? (Is there any kind of log or screenshot I can take next time that'd help discern where my error is?) Or- will those certain classes, when played really at the top of their game, simply, still out dps the raid hunter?
#979SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Originally Posted by Intermission View Post
I dont agree with this.

VoidReaver I have topped dps (with and without a shadow priest) every time since 2.1 with max AR/Avoidance/Mend Pet. A SP means you dont need to mend pet as much, and saves you on mana pots however (but Nethergon Energy is cheap anyway).
So you just leave your pet in and heal through the damage? We had our first night on Void Reaver last night and my dps was crap, but I didn't get much out of my pet on that fight.
#980SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Noah
I leave my pet in the entire time against Void Reaver, it's considerably more comfortable with a Shadow Priest in your group but perfectly doable without.
#981SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Intermission
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
So you just leave your pet in and heal through the damage? We had our first night on Void Reaver last night and my dps was crap, but I didn't get much out of my pet on that fight.
Correct, I send him in with the tanks and he stays there the whole time if I have a shadow priest.

If I dont have a SP, I send him in with the tanks and keep him there until a melee accidentally get an Orb while backing out. I call him back at that stage to either: a) avoid the orb, or b) he gets hit by the orb, so I call him out to give the mend pet enough time to catch up with the HP loss. Then send him back in again.

Although I'm pretty sure mend pet can heal through the Stomping + the Orb anyway.


I used to respec my pet per encounter, but recently just left him at max NR, max AR, and the rest in FireR. (mainly for Vashj, Alar, Astro/Void, and Kael).
#982SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Glaurong
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
So, my first big, full week of BM raiding. I don't know if I am doing things right, laugh, or if I am just confused and filled with half truths and data from all over. Half the time I hear people say that 'omg bm hunters will top dps for whole raid' or 'I come in number 1 all the time.'

I think my dps improved greatly. With recap on, I see my per fight dps range from 700-900 (sometimes tipping 1000 on really long streaks of crits/etc.) Before, I think I hovered around 500.

Still though, I can't come NEAR our top mage, and there are a few other folks that just consistently pull way ahead; warlocks, some of our top rogues, mages and our enh. shamans that are on top of their game.

I'm using a windserpent, and feel pretty comfortable with the pets in the fight. Gruul he dps'ed all but 2-3x when cave ins were being a pain, so I'd pull him out, tap a quick mend, and then send him back in. On Maulgar, I tanked the shaman in NR, and he just dps'd on him with me. Magtheridon, I had him on Mags the whole time (I was a clicker, so yeah, lost some dps on that but still.)

On gruul, I came in 5th. Last night on Prince in Kara, I came in 2nd (Behind the big mage).

I use steady/auto and keep trinkets and stuff up. I use Core of Arkelos and Bladefists Breath, popping them in and out with FD. Rapid fire when its up and BW when it's up. Orc racial when I know I wont need any healing. During rapid fire, I stop using steady, and use arcane and multi because my Imp Hawk procs so much that I get ahead of the global cooldown if I try to use steady shot. I have NO problem with mana, and haven't run out yet in any fights.

Am I slipping up somewhere? (Is there any kind of log or screenshot I can take next time that'd help discern where my error is?) Or- will those certain classes, when played really at the top of their game, simply, still out dps the raid hunter?
Few things I notice.

You are generally better off trying to stack all of your trinkets/cools with BW than using them independently. I wait for an hourglass proc and then hit bladefist, BW and my orc racial. The added AP does much more while me and my pet are affected by TBW/BW than otherwise.

Rapid fire is usually a bad idea unless you have a substantial amount of dead time in your steady/auto rotation. You have a wolfslayer sniper rifle so you have minimal dead time. Rapid fire isn't going to increase your dps, it is just going to give you a headache.

I don't see any glaring problems with your gear, although if you are using a sonic spear you are a bit heavy on hit rating and you could improve your socketing somewhat. Your spec is pretty standard so no big problems there.

If you were doing 500 dps before, specing BM isn't going to be the magic bullet that takes you to 1200 dps.

I'd say you should try and post a WWS, that is a great diagnostic tool. However with the information you've given, unless you are really blowing the execution of your rotation, I'm not sure what it could be. Perhaps bad latency? Not using KC? Auto casting instead of macroing LB?
#983SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Rapid fire is usually a bad idea unless you have a substantial amount of dead time in your steady/auto rotation. You have a wolfslayer sniper rifle so you have minimal dead time. Rapid fire isn't going to increase your dps, it is just going to give you a headache.
Rapid Fire isn't bad per se, but you're right, using it causes headaches. The best use of it is to stack it with Heroism/Bloodlust. Why? Because Heroism/Bloodlust already make it hard to maintain a rotation, but with Rapid Fire you can actually do a fair amount of white DPS through autoshot and tossing in multis and arcanes. It's not very mana efficient, but if you're getting hit with Heroism anyway, just stack the haste and do the machine gun thing. The two together should put you at 2.7/(1.15*1.20*1.30*1.40)~1.1 attack speed (not including a QS proc).

Now, I wouldn't recommend going out of your way to get heroism/bloodlust for this purpose, but if you get heroism you may as well make the most of it and not kill yourself trying to maintain the rotation.
#984SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Bloodlust/Heroism reduces the GCD so it shouldn't mess with your shot rotation. It's the only haste effect that works that way.
#985SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
That's true, but it doesn't reduce latency. If, like me, you have relatively high latency, anything that reduces the window size into which you can insert shots is an issue. Of course, YMMV.
#986SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1lilwolfe
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Few things I notice.

You are generally better off trying to stack all of your trinkets/cools with BW than using them independently. I wait for an hourglass proc and then hit bladefist, BW and my orc racial. The added AP does much more while me and my pet are affected by TBW/BW than otherwise.

Rapid fire is usually a bad idea unless you have a substantial amount of dead time in your steady/auto rotation. You have a wolfslayer sniper rifle so you have minimal dead time. Rapid fire isn't going to increase your dps, it is just going to give you a headache.

I don't see any glaring problems with your gear, although if you are using a sonic spear you are a bit heavy on hit rating and you could improve your socketing somewhat. Your spec is pretty standard so no big problems there.

If you were doing 500 dps before, specing BM isn't going to be the magic bullet that takes you to 1200 dps.

I'd say you should try and post a WWS, that is a great diagnostic tool. However with the information you've given, unless you are really blowing the execution of your rotation, I'm not sure what it could be. Perhaps bad latency? Not using KC? Auto casting instead of macroing LB?

Whew, ok thanks guys. Bear with me here as I am pretty much a newb when it comes to the real heavy techinical talk and math crunching. I just am really focused on becoming a better hunter and stuff.

I'm using Legacy as my weapon. It's currently got Savagery enchant, - I'm always torn on when to go attack vs crit for sockets and enchants.

Will use trinkets and stuff in conjuction with BW on the next few runs and see how that goes.

As for the last paragraph, you got me there. I'm horrible with macros and such on this game. (Dunno why, as my last MMO I had tons!) KC - should that be macroed, and if so how, and to what? I do just leave LB on autocast- so advice on how to macro that would be awesome too.

What is WWS?

I've always been flustered that it's hard to explain timing a shot rotation in text. What I do is cast steady shot, and wait just a flip of a second and then start casting it again so that basically, for every steady shot, an autoshot sneaks out right after it and then another steady is lined up. I downloaded an autoshot cast bar once, but playing so long just by sound it really screwed me up more than anything. Are there other things out there that'll teach you how to master the timing?

Thanks again all, ^^
#987SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
That's true, but it doesn't reduce latency. If, like me, you have relatively high latency, anything that reduces the window size into which you can insert shots is an issue. Of course, YMMV.
Ahh. I see. I normally have latency around 80-90ms. I don't think that's particularly low, but it's probably low enough to eliminate a lot of the latency-related problems that a lot of people have.

WTB Shaman CD that reduces latency too.
#988SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
...What is WWS?...
Get started here.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/doc-index.jsp
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/doc-combatlog.jsp
#989SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1wamsoze
Hey everyone. First off, I think this thread and the other resources on this site are amazing, thanks for all the information that everyone has posted. I have a question as it relates to weapon choice. I am 41/20 BM spec, my armory profile can be found at

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...oran&n=Wamsoze

I just acquired the Wrathtide Longbow and I'm wondering what kind of changes I'll see in DPS if I switch to it from the Wolfslayer I am currently using. I know their is a drop of almost 4 in weapon dps but I have a heavy crit build (29.25% unbuffed) and am wondering if the top end damage (which will yield larger crits) will make up for that difference. I am also wondering if anyone has tested both weapons and has noticed any difference in the shot rotation and if you are able to squeeze in an additional special with the Wrathtide. Any input would be much appreciated, thanks in advance.

-WAM
#990SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Harwin
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I have a feeling your post is going to wind up in the Banhammer, but before it does I'd like to point out that your assertion that 80-90% of a pet's DPS is "white" is incorrect. My modeling shows that a focus dump special ability (claw, gore, lightning breath) and Kill Command make up roughly 50% of total pet damage for a BM Hunter. If you are interested in the math behind that, just download my spreadsheet. I have the equations laid out pretty clearly.

Also, using those same equations and ones for Hunter DPS I show my total DPS (pet + Hunter) is better off with +Agility gems than with +AP. I am a 41/20/0 Beastmaster Hunter. You can disagree with me, but please provide the calculations to show it. I do believe for low levels of gear +AP is superior, but raiding Hunters are going to see more value from Agility, and it's pretty much true for all specs.
Hmm, unlike your calculations, in practice I also find a very large percentage of my pet's damage to be White.

Recent Malchezzar fight, Claw Only (yes I should have bite, but that would have to be crazy good to make up for it - if it is and I'm missing it I guess I'll have to wave goodbye to prowl)
I also have cobra reflexes, which increases auto attack but decreases KC.

White: 49,358
Claw: 12,244
Kill Command: 8,182 (I have ~21% crit, did kill command most of the time it was up - pet was in for most of the fight)

Netherspite:
White: 50,244
KC: 10,886
Claw: 7,918

In practice, Auto attack is making up about 5/7 of my damage, or ~70%.

If the problem is that I'm missing Bite, Bite would have to be about 3x as good as claw to bring my white damage to 50%.

I'm BM... did you mean just for MM hunter? Wasn't clear - but losing Serpent's Swiftness would do a lot to reduce white damage but not the others.
#991SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1jurgen
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
All of the discussion and theories about the scorpids is nice, but lets be serious for a minute. Is that really worth the trouble?

My wind serpent can dish out 400 dps after all reductions and thats with a ton of missed kill commands thanks to the supergreat getting-out-of-melee thing.
Now as Osse showed a scorpid can get above 600dps on a lvl 50 mob without misses, so I'd say in a raid situation it'll be about ~500dps. But as someone pointed out, fights where your pet is activly doing damage from beginning to end are super rare. If you have to move it, your dps will fall below the dps of a cat or something, and moving around happens a lot.

But even for the 3 fights I can imagine right now where you can let it do its thing for the entire fight, will you have the time left to check if there was a stack missed in between and if you have to pull it back, wait until the last dot runs out (the one that was still applied but failed to keep the old stack going), wait for cooldowns to be ready and send it back it with renewed BW and trinkets?
I believe on top of all the other stuff a BM has to look for thats quite a task and you also have to count that you either lose a lot of dps, while trying to get the circumstances right for a new start of buffed stacks in the middle of a fight or you just have to let it go after a miss with mediocre damage and focus on the other stuff you are doing.

So, again, is it worth it bringing a scorp to a raid, use it with superb damage on less then half the fights with a lot of needed attention, with quite noticable less dps on the other half of the fights and a serious chance of not even getting the great dps on the mobs where its supposed to work?
Why wouldn't you just wait till your cooldowns are up, disable autocast, wait a few seconds until the debuff fades, blow CDs and then re-enable autocast?
#992SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Harwin View Post
Hmm, unlike your calculations, in practice I also find a very large percentage of my pet's damage to be White.

Recent Malchezzar fight, Claw Only (yes I should have bite, but that would have to be crazy good to make up for it - if it is and I'm missing it I guess I'll have to wave goodbye to prowl)
I also have cobra reflexes, which increases auto attack but decreases KC.

White: 49,358
Claw: 12,244
Kill Command: 8,182 (I have ~21% crit, did kill command most of the time it was up - pet was in for most of the fight)

Netherspite:
White: 50,244
KC: 10,886
Claw: 7,918

In practice, Auto attack is making up about 5/7 of my damage, or ~70%.

If the problem is that I'm missing Bite, Bite would have to be about 3x as good as claw to bring my white damage to 50%.

I'm BM... did you mean just for MM hunter? Wasn't clear - but losing Serpent's Swiftness would do a lot to reduce white damage but not the others.
Can you post how much focus was returned from GFTT? Claw benefits from high crit rates to dump focus quickly; it shouldn't ever be more than your white dps, but if your pet is focus starved, that might cause your white dps to appear abnormally high. Just a thought, though. As a point of reference, I've had my pet deal as little at 39% white damage (with a scorpid, though, so consider the monster stack of poison that dwarfs everything else...). My cat appears to be doing about 74% white damage (with both claw and bite), although admittedly my crit rate is somewhat low (~23% raid buffed) and that could cause this. Anyone else have good numbers to share?
#993SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Harwin
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Can you post how much focus was returned from GFTT? Claw benefits from high crit rates to dump focus quickly; it shouldn't ever be more than your white dps, but if your pet is focus starved, that might cause your white dps to appear abnormally high. Just a thought, though. As a point of reference, I've had my pet deal as little at 39% white damage (with a scorpid, though, so consider the monster stack of poison that dwarfs everything else...). My cat appears to be doing about 74% white damage (with both claw and bite), although admittedly my crit rate is somewhat low (~23% raid buffed) and that could cause this. Anyone else have good numbers to share?
Maybe GFTT is part of the issue.
I went and added up my crits (47 on each fight) and then went to check my armory profile to see how much I had in GFTT. Apparently none. I do have Bestial Discipline, and I don't typically notice his focus at 0.

I think I had no GFTT because Bestial Discipline was better when Mend Pet took +healing and I wanted to be able to solo mobs (and not have to hit them to get his focus back). I also took efficiency over GFTT because I never have a shadow priest and our prot. pally isn't always around for JoW. But given how much ridiculous MP/5 I've got now I should probably look at dumping 2 points in Efficiency for GFTT.

Assuming I do that, should I dump Bestial Discipline? I don't have the same solo-tanking needs I used to, so I can more often count on GFTT keeping up focus for Growl. Or should I still keep it to maximize his focus?

At which point I might go for Bite after all.
#994SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Avellyr
I just acquired the Wrathtide Longbow and I'm wondering what kind of changes I'll see in DPS if I switch to it from the Wolfslayer I am currently using. I know their is a drop of almost 4 in weapon dps but I have a heavy crit build (29.25% unbuffed) and am wondering if the top end damage (which will yield larger crits) will make up for that difference. I am also wondering if anyone has tested both weapons and has noticed any difference in the shot rotation and if you are able to squeeze in an additional special with the Wrathtide. Any input would be much appreciated, thanks in advance.
I would go with the Wrathtide longbow. Wolfslayer is pretty fast for a BM build. You should never ever try to fit multiple specials per auto shot with BM though. When I was MM and using wrathtide, it seemed to be just the right speed. Also, don't sign your posts, we can see your name.
#995SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Harwin
Originally Posted by Avellyr View Post
I would go with the Wrathtide longbow. Wolfslayer is pretty fast for a BM build. You should never ever try to fit multiple specials per auto shot with BM though. When I was MM and using wrathtide, it seemed to be just the right speed. Also, don't sign your posts, we can see your name.
I'm 42/19 BM, and my weapon is even faster than Wolfslayer (2.6 vs. 2.7) and it's just about perfect for my latency.

Wolfslayer should be far superior to Wrathtide on a straight steady-auto rotation. Unless you've got big latency issues.

Assuming you've got both weapons, I'd do some combatlog tests and find out how fast a weapon you can actually handle.
#996SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Harwin View Post
Maybe GFTT is part of the issue.
I went and added up my crits (47 on each fight) and then went to check my armory profile to see how much I had in GFTT. Apparently none. I do have Bestial Discipline, and I don't typically notice his focus at 0.

I think I had no GFTT because Bestial Discipline was better when Mend Pet took +healing and I wanted to be able to solo mobs (and not have to hit them to get his focus back). I also took efficiency over GFTT because I never have a shadow priest and our prot. pally isn't always around for JoW. But given how much ridiculous MP/5 I've got now I should probably look at dumping 2 points in Efficiency for GFTT.

Assuming I do that, should I dump Bestial Discipline? I don't have the same solo-tanking needs I used to, so I can more often count on GFTT keeping up focus for Growl. Or should I still keep it to maximize his focus?

At which point I might go for Bite after all.
Well, it's my opinion that with a focus dump you can practically never have too much focus. Sure, you can theoretically flood your pet with focus, but practically speaking this won't happen. GFTT will ensure you can claw and bite to your heart's content. The upshot of this is more claws and bites means more crits; more crits mean more frenzy and FI uptime. It's win/win, really.

If you want more info, check Cheeky's spreadsheet for some good pet math. Much of it has been duplicated or rederived in various threads (including this one), but the best way to play with it and see what effect a change in gear, etc. has is to use Cheeky's Sheet.
#997SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Harwin
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Well, it's my opinion that with a focus dump you can practically never have too much focus. Sure, you can theoretically flood your pet with focus, but practically speaking this won't happen. GFTT will ensure you can claw and bite to your heart's content. The upshot of this is more claws and bites means more crits; more crits mean more frenzy and FI uptime. It's win/win, really.

If you want more info, check Cheeky's spreadsheet for some good pet math. Much of it has been duplicated or rederived in various threads (including this one), but the best way to play with it and see what effect a change in gear, etc. has is to use Cheeky's Sheet.
I finally looked up the amount on Bestial Disicpline and did the math - Assuming the GCD on claw is 1 second, I need 2x as much focus as I've got now. That also explains why Netherspite shows less claw than Prince - On Prince he's got time to recharge focus when I pull him for novas(mend pet is too much in that mana-starved fight)

Sounds like GFTT might get me 10% more pet damage, by no means insignificant.
#998SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Leica
Since I had a scorpid for PvP already, I decided to see what I could get for a max tick before the fun ends:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=krml6ivfbxhaa&a=26

Wasn't really paying attention to too much more than getting a huge tick, so kinda slacked on the personal dps. The stack wound up falling off eventually and I had to settle for a weaker one.

The max tick is from during a banish, the max tick (no banish) was around 840.

http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs116&d=07242&...207_014505.jpg
#999SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Magicme
Macros?

Hey guys,

For a while now I have been using /castsequence macros for dps, and was wondering if anyone had done any testing with castsequence macros and high latency?

I am the highest DPS on most of our fights at the moment (though we are still only in kara, so I know its not a good place to measure from), and SWStats usually only shows ~600 dps, though I think it may be a little more than that, because I don't believe everyone else sucks in my raid sucks :P

My question is: I play in Australia, so I generally play with 200-300 MS. Would manually timing my rotations be much better for my DPS, compared to shot rotations?

My general rotation is Auto / Steady or Auto/Arcane/Auto/Steady, using KC when its up, however I am considering using a combination of Auto/Arcane/KC when it is up, as I have read that is the best way to go.
#1000SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Klorak
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel
As for the FI uptime calculation, I made the assumption that the pet has Frenzy (this might be where some of the confusion is coming in).
Thanks a lot for your help.

Would it be an idea to use the frenzy uptime to calculate an average attack speed? This would obviously give us a new number for frenzy uptime that could then be used to calculate yet another average attack speed. After a number of iterations like this we should obtain a stable number for frenzy uptime.

I will pursue this a bit more now that I have some formulae to work from and maybe mix in some emperical numbers for how frequently my pet uses gore/bite.
#1001SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Tumas
hi leica,

its possible to know your shot rotation or your castsequence?
i've seen your damage meter as bm here http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=20683-21360

and i admit im "Oo" to see this, its awesome :o need some advice plz ^^

i see you dont use multi and arcane often, you dont have them in your rotation? or downranking?

thx in advance

Never.
#1002SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Klorak View Post
Thanks a lot for your help.

Would it be an idea to use the frenzy uptime to calculate an average attack speed? This would obviously give us a new number for frenzy uptime that could then be used to calculate yet another average attack speed. After a number of iterations like this we should obtain a stable number for frenzy uptime.

I will pursue this a bit more now that I have some formulae to work from and maybe mix in some emperical numbers for how frequently my pet uses gore/bite.
I suppose you could do that, essentially it would just be weighted averaging. It would just be %uptime * speed for all the respective speeds, then sum those weighted values. So using my example from before, with frenzy uptime at 73%, the average attack speed would be 0.99*0.73+1.28*(1-0.73)=1.0683. That looks about right, but honestly you may want to double check that. You could pretty easily check this with WWS: time dps presence times time of fight (so percentage * total time) then divide by the number of auto attacks to get a rough idea if this is correct. Honestly, because the variation from 0.99 to 1.28 is relatively small, you may not get good verification (in practice there are too many extraneous variables arising from time spent moving, etc), but in theory that should work.
#1003SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1lossendil
Originally Posted by Tumas View Post
hi leica,
its possible to know your shot rotation or your castsequence?
i've seen your damage meter as bm here http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=20683-21360
and i admit im "Oo" to see this, its awesome :o need some advice plz ^^
i see you dont use multi and arcane often, you dont have them in your rotation? or downranking?
Get the cast sequence directly from WWS : browse the log and filter. Example :

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...8&fiaa=a&fit=0

Or if you also want the buffs & gains :

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=2&fit=3&fit=4

Leica's secret seems to be a perfect pattern of "Auto Shot/Steady Shot" for 66% of total damage. His pet does 24% of the total, and other shots are used for a mere 10% of total, mostly on adds.
#1004SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Leica
Originally Posted by lossendil View Post
Get the cast sequence directly from WWS : browse the log and filter. Example :

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...8&fiaa=a&fit=0

Or if you also want the buffs & gains :

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=2&fit=3&fit=4

Leica's secret seems to be a perfect pattern of "Auto Shot/Steady Shot" for 66% of total damage. His pet does 24% of the total, and other shots are used for a mere 10% of total, mostly on adds.
This is pretty much accurate. I'll fire off arcane shots if I'm on the move, ditto on multi-shots if I need to travel a fair distance. I always tend to 'stutter-step' when running to make sure I don't lose autos as well, so my pattern is like... auto arcane on the run, autoshot time says new auto coming, stop multi-auto.

Fights where it's just stand and fire, it's pure steady/auto, typically during quickshots even, I could probably improve there a bit.

An interesting note, when I went from Sunfury to Serpent Spine Longbow my dps stays relatively static, this was because I gained deadtime between autoshots and steady shots. I fixed this by going from Vengeance Wrap to Crystalweave Cape. I lost a bit of AP and Crit, but the haste on the cape actually buffed my dps even with that loss. I'm looking foward to when I can pick up some haste gear from BT and go back to a more appropriate cape.
#1005SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1gimpynerd
My guild is recently working on Vashj, and has requested that I spec into Hawk Eye to kill spore bats. What I am wondering is if The Beast Within is better than 1 point in Mortal Shots or vice versa, for damage?

Any insight would be appreciated.
#1006SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Leica
Originally Posted by gimpynerd View Post
My guild is recently working on Vashj, and has requested that I spec into Hawk Eye to kill spore bats. What I am wondering is if The Beast Within is better than 1 point in Mortal Shots or vice versa, for damage?

Any insight would be appreciated.
You can still reach spore bats with 35 yard range. You just don't have as much freedom in where you can stand. As a BM hunter stand directly below the flight path, and you'll still be able to get 2-3 shots off. It's much easier if you split the damage among a few people along the flightpath. None will have to take their attention off Vashj for too long, and since the approach is predictable you can knock 'em out pretty reliably with just a few hunters/mages along the flight path paying attention for them.
#1007SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1gimpynerd
Originally Posted by Leica View Post
You can still reach spore bats with 35 yard range. You just don't have as much freedom in where you can stand. As a BM hunter stand directly below the flight path, and you'll still be able to get 2-3 shots off. It's much easier if you split the damage among a few people along the flightpath. None will have to take their attention off Vashj for too long, and since the approach is predictable you can knock 'em out pretty reliably with just a few hunters/mages along the flight path paying attention for them.
This may be so, but my guild has requested something, and will not be budging on the matter.

From very simple math, they seem about equal. My gut told me that TBW is less dps, but I wanted to make sure.
#1008SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1hztetra
I've hit a brick wall with my DPS as of late --

Specc'ing to 41/20/0 has definitely increased by DPS by a substantial amount (along the lines of 150+ more dps). However, I'm not currently happy with where it's at, especially after going through this thread. I don't have WWS, but here are some numbers I've put out in recent raids using SWS with pets merged:

Magtheridon (we don't make use of the banish): 688, 591, 564 - Both of those were at a side cube which put me in range to dps him while waiting click. Both those attempts ended right around 30%. A few nights later, on an attempt where we downed him for the first time I was using a scorpid and was at the cube next to the door (meaning I had to be out of range of mag for about 15+ seconds). Here's what makes me sad: I died at about 25%, I was at 280 dps and my scorpid was at 282. He out damaged me by 1200. Recap had a max scorpid tick at 1500 (it must have been refreshed during the 1 second or so Mag was banished).

Gruul: 623, 680, 583.

I'm not happy with these numbers and I'm not sure what to do. Here is what I have tried

1. Shot Rotation: I use a cast-sequence to do a pure auto/steady rotation. I've installed bigtrouble and have done a manual rotation for +/- 15 dps difference than the cast sequence. I've tried replacing steadies with arcane/multi-shot, but that resulted in less DPS and much greater mana consumption. I've tried clipping my autoshot to squeeze in a steady+arcane/multi, but my 2.03s attack speed combined with 277ms ping resulted in too much clipping. So I use an auto-steady castsequence.

2. Gear (armory profile to the left): Obvious shortcomings are my trinkets. I'm *still* trying to get the hourglass from BM, and I'm working towards the bloodlust brooch. Other than that, I'm not sure if there are any other obtainable upgrades outside of raids. I've gone through hundreds of items in Cheeky's, and still cannot find a viable upgrade for my Fel Leather Boots. I plan on replacing my belt with a General's PVP belt come the pvp patch. Cheeky's tells me my gems are currently the best I can do at the moment (which surprised me, as I gemmed most everything to support a survival build for 2.1). Anyone see something I'm not?

3. Pet: I use a Scorpid with Rank 4 poison and apply it properly for Magtheridon and Gruul's. In Kara and SSC I take my Ravager. Both pets have CR and Avoidance. Scorpid uses only Scorpid Poison and auto attack, Ravager uses Gore and Bite (both rank 9). I can generally reposition my pet during cave-ins in no longer than 5 seconds, while I'm moving I use Arcane and serpent sting, by then I've normally stopped moving and begun to resume my steady-auto rotation.

4. Consumables: I use Warp Burgers, Major Agility Elixir, Major Mageblood Elixir, Superior Mana Oil, Fel Mana Potions.

5. Spec: I am fairly certain my BM build is as optimized for raid dps as I could get it. Anyone disagree?

This is what I do and what I've tried. Any suggestions?
#1009SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Harwin
Originally Posted by hztetra View Post
I've hit a brick wall with my DPS as of late --

Specc'ing to 41/20/0 has definitely increased by DPS by a substantial amount (along the lines of 150+ more dps). However, I'm not currently happy with where it's at, especially after going through this thread. I don't have WWS, but here are some numbers I've put out in recent raids using SWS with pets merged:

Gruul: 623, 680, 583.
In my experience using SWStats to calculate "DPS" (as opposed to just Damage) gives lower than actual results.
If most people on this thread are reporting WWS DPS numbers and you're using SWStats numbers that could be one thing that would lower the DPS you *think* you're doing without affecting actual DPS.


You reposition your pet for CAveins? I generally just pull mine out, wait, and send it back in so that I don't have to interrupt auto/steady. I wonder which is better. Losing FI is bad, but so is losing shot rotation.

The last thing is my DPS depends a lot on where I'm standing. If I'm able to stand on a rock for gruul (or get there in just 2-3 steps) I do a lot more than if I'm having to get flung around and reposition myself etc. (I'm not running to a safe zone when I'm far away - this is just the shatter + bandage time)
#1010SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Serpica
Originally Posted by hztetra View Post
I've hit a brick wall with my DPS as of late --

Specc'ing to 41/20/0 has definitely increased by DPS by a substantial amount (along the lines of 150+ more dps). However, I'm not currently happy with where it's at, especially after going through this thread. I don't have WWS, but here are some numbers I've put out in recent raids using SWS with pets merged:

Magtheridon (we don't make use of the banish): 688, 591, 564 - Both of those were at a side cube which put me in range to dps him while waiting click. Both those attempts ended right around 30%. A few nights later, on an attempt where we downed him for the first time I was using a scorpid and was at the cube next to the door (meaning I had to be out of range of mag for about 15+ seconds). Here's what makes me sad: I died at about 25%, I was at 280 dps and my scorpid was at 282. He out damaged me by 1200. Recap had a max scorpid tick at 1500 (it must have been refreshed during the 1 second or so Mag was banished).

Gruul: 623, 680, 583.

I'm not happy with these numbers and I'm not sure what to do. Here is what I have tried

1. Shot Rotation: I use a cast-sequence to do a pure auto/steady rotation. I've installed bigtrouble and have done a manual rotation for +/- 15 dps difference than the cast sequence. I've tried replacing steadies with arcane/multi-shot, but that resulted in less DPS and much greater mana consumption. I've tried clipping my autoshot to squeeze in a steady+arcane/multi, but my 2.03s attack speed combined with 277ms ping resulted in too much clipping. So I use an auto-steady castsequence.

2. Gear (armory profile to the left): Obvious shortcomings are my trinkets. I'm *still* trying to get the hourglass from BM, and I'm working towards the bloodlust brooch. Other than that, I'm not sure if there are any other obtainable upgrades outside of raids. I've gone through hundreds of items in Cheeky's, and still cannot find a viable upgrade for my Fel Leather Boots. I plan on replacing my belt with a General's PVP belt come the pvp patch. Cheeky's tells me my gems are currently the best I can do at the moment (which surprised me, as I gemmed most everything to support a survival build for 2.1). Anyone see something I'm not?

3. Pet: I use a Scorpid with Rank 4 poison and apply it properly for Magtheridon and Gruul's. In Kara and SSC I take my Ravager. Both pets have CR and Avoidance. Scorpid uses only Scorpid Poison and auto attack, Ravager uses Gore and Bite (both rank 9). I can generally reposition my pet during cave-ins in no longer than 5 seconds, while I'm moving I use Arcane and serpent sting, by then I've normally stopped moving and begun to resume my steady-auto rotation.

4. Consumables: I use Warp Burgers, Major Agility Elixir, Major Mageblood Elixir, Superior Mana Oil, Fel Mana Potions.

5. Spec: I am fairly certain my BM build is as optimized for raid dps as I could get it. Anyone disagree?

This is what I do and what I've tried. Any suggestions?
It sounds like you know what you're doing and your gear is good enough that you should be seeing higher numbers than you are. I can't really diagnose any problem with your technique without actually seeing a WWS log and browsing through some of the data.

Here is our latest Mag kill if you feel like looking at any of my numbers or stats. I'm using a steady/auto shot macro. I was clicking an orb that was about 5 yards out of range, so I had to time it as closely as I could before running to the cube. This was with a lvl 69 scorpid with rank 4 poison- popping my trinket and BW before applying poison on the first stack.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...ham&s=991-1673

Try going into the log and filtering the data if you're looking for shot rotations or specific trends.
#1011SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1hztetra
In my experience using SWStats to calculate "DPS" (as opposed to just Damage) gives lower than actual results.
If most people on this thread are reporting WWS DPS numbers and you're using SWStats numbers that could be one thing that would lower the DPS you *think* you're doing without affecting actual DPS.
I was curious to see if people using SWS are still receiving higher numbers than my SWS reports. I know that WWS stops the dps count during cave-ins, moving, and shatters, but to the tune of a 400+ difference? I'm curious to find out.

You reposition your pet for CAveins? I generally just pull mine out, wait, and send it back in so that I don't have to interrupt auto/steady. I wonder which is better. Losing FI is bad, but so is losing shot rotation.
That is something I have not thought of. Can we simulate this mathematically? I may try just pulling my pet out tonight on Gruul and maintaining my rotation barring some math to show otherwirse.

The last thing is my DPS depends a lot on where I'm standing. If I'm able to stand on a rock for gruul (or get there in just 2-3 steps) I do a lot more than if I'm having to get flung around and reposition myself etc. (I'm not running to a safe zone when I'm far away - this is just the shatter + bandage time)
As MM with hawkeye I could stay very close to the wall if not on the wall and still DPS. As BM, I generally can't, but I'll try playing with different positioning around the room. Up until grow 6 or so our healers can afford to spot heal so the DPS does not have to bandage, after that it's on ourselves to bandage/healthstone. Beyond that, it's my goal to never take damage anyways, but I can't always help mages blinking near me or people taking a nice walk in the woods towards me. As an aside, the numbers I posted were kills around the 11 growth range.
#1012SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by gimpynerd View Post
My guild is recently working on Vashj, and has requested that I spec into Hawk Eye to kill spore bats. What I am wondering is if The Beast Within is better than 1 point in Mortal Shots or vice versa, for damage?

Any insight would be appreciated.
I'm going to assume you use TBW as soon as it's up each time (just for the sake of making calculating easier). For 18 seconds out of every 120 seconds, you do 10% more damage. Distributed for time, that's 1.5% additional damage. A 5th point in Mortal shots means that x% (x is your crit chance) of your shots do 100*(2.30-2.24)/2.30=2.6% additional damage. Using the equality 2.6*x>=1.5, the break-even point is x~0.58, or 58% crit. I'm gonna make a stretch and assume you have less than 58% crit - for sustained dps, 5/5 Mortal Shots is probably not superior to TBW (keep in mind the assumption that you're using TBW every single time it's up without delay). Also, keep in mind that stacking trinkets + TBW will yield far superior damage to trinkets + 6% additional crit damage.
#1013SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1gimpynerd
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I'm going to assume you use TBW as soon as it's up each time (just for the sake of making calculating easier). For 18 seconds out of every 120 seconds, you do 10% more damage. Distributed for time, that's 1.5% additional damage. A 5th point in Mortal shots means that x% (x is your crit chance) of your shots do 100*(2.30-2.24)/2.30=2.6% additional damage. Using the equality 2.6*x>=1.5, the break-even point is x~0.58, or 58% crit. I'm gonna make a stretch and assume you have less than 58% crit - for sustained dps, 5/5 Mortal Shots is probably not superior to TBW (keep in mind the assumption that you're using TBW every single time it's up without delay). Also, keep in mind that stacking trinkets + TBW will yield far superior damage to trinkets + 6% additional crit damage.
In reality the equation would be more like:

100((2.18-2.12)/2.18) ~ 2.75

2.75x >= 1.5

x ~ 0.55

Thanks for the modeling though. <3
#1014SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by gimpynerd View Post
In reality the equation would be more like:

100((2.18-2.12)/2.18) ~ 2.75

2.75x >= 1.5

x ~ 0.55

Thanks for the modeling though. <3
What do you mean? I thought everyone has 63 talent points. Yeah, I occasionally make silly mistakes, but you get the picture. Hope that helps.
#1015SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Relwin
After some abyssmal Vashj attempts leading up to our kill last weekend you can do the bats without Hawk Eye. Just position yourself to the west and be sure to catch them as they come in. Have all of your hunters just toss their shots at them as they come in and they don't get far at all.
#1016SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Mikari
Originally Posted by hztetra View Post

5. Spec: I am fairly certain my BM build is as optimized for raid dps as I could get it. Anyone disagree?

This is what I do and what I've tried. Any suggestions?
I'd personally drop the point in Beastial Swiftness and 1 point from Frenzy and put them into Animal handler, it's the only way to increase pet +hit and gaining 4% hit against level 73's will be a nice DPS increase. 4 Points in Frenzy will be enough to keep it up almost 100% of the time.
#1017SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Leica
Originally Posted by gimpynerd View Post
This may be so, but my guild has requested something, and will not be budging on the matter.

From very simple math, they seem about equal. My gut told me that TBW is less dps, but I wanted to make sure.
It looks like you have your damage model from the post above.

I understand wanting to spec in a way that's best for the guild, but wouldn't it be remiss not to suggest to them that Hawk Eye is not necessary to kill the bats, and in fact, skipping it allows you a higher dps spec for not only the bats, but also Vashj and whichever adds you handle?

As for them not budging, I suspect that if they've got the best interest of the raid in mind, seeing posts from multiple hunters here on these forums that show the bats can be killed without hawk eye will likely change their minds.
#1018SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Sienna
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
It's a straightforward calculation. They both use methods of converse probability (that is, determine what the chances of NOT getting a crit in the duration of the buff; 1 minus that probability is the probability of getting at least 1 crit in the duration, refreshing the buff). They both have the form
1-(1-ChanceCrit)^floor(NumberOfSpecials+BuffDuration/AttackSpeed)
I don't remember exactly what my pet's crit rating is, and I'm at work, so I'm going to guess it's 15% (that might be high, but you can substitute whatever appropriate number you want). With Cobra Reflexes, Frenzy, and SS, pet attack speed is 2.0/(1.30*1.30*1.20)~0.99. I'm going to ignore special attacks for now (I couldn't guess how many specials my pet will use on average in the duration of the buff; note that it's only special attacks that can crit, such as claw and bite, but not scorpid poison, etc).

For FI, uptime in this case would be:
1-(1-0.15)^floor(0+8/0.99+2/1.28)~0.77
About 77% uptime. Note that Frenzy only last 8 seconds after a crit, so I have to account for two different attack speeds. If I add in LotP, it becomes:
1-(1-0.20)^floor(0+8/0.99+2/1.28)~0.87
About 87% uptime. For Frenzy, the calculations are very similar:
1-(1-0.15)^floor(0+8/0.99)~0.73
1-(1-0.20)^floor(0+8/0.99)~0.83
Note that in both cases it happens to be a 10% difference, but don't expect that to be the general rule for all cases, because it's not. Anyway, I'm sure you can use those equations to figure out more accurate numbers (that is, ignore my guesses and assumptions that number of specials is 0).
The problem with pet crit is Kill Command. KC triggers FI/frezy as well when it crits and the crit coming from KC depends on your crit rate as a hunter so it makes the whole calculation very messy. I'm working on a FI/frenzy uptime calculator which includes KC crits as well, don't know when I'll finish it. Tonight I just tested the FI uptime on blasted lands mob. In 2 minutes of shooting FI was up 117 seconds. Pet crit chances were 33% KC crit, 8% LB crit, 17.9% melee crit.

Assume pet crits once and enters FI for 10 seconds and frenzy for 8 seconds. In 10 second time the first 8 seconds pet has 0.98 attack speed with frenzy, that means he outputs 8 white attacks in 8 second time and then at least one more until FI fades away, that's 9 white attacks. Pets white crit chance is exactly 15%, so out of those 9 attacks, the chance of none of them critting is 0.85^9 = 0.23. Then there's lightning breaths. In 10 seconds, pet outputs 4.34 many LB's (2.3 average time between LB). LB crit chance is around 11%, so the chance none of those 4 LB's crit is 0.89^4 = 0.627. Then there's kill command. Assuming you use 2 times KC in 10 seconds, KC's crit chance is 35%, so the chance of 2 KC's not critting is 0.65^2=0.4225. When you take the product of all of them

0.23*0.627*0.4225=0.06. That's less than 1 in a thousand. So once the pet goes into FI, the chance of ever getting out is extremely low.

Last edited by Sienna : 06/13/07 at 12:04 AM.
#1019SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
The problem with pet crit is Kill Command. KC triggers FI/frezy as well when it crits and the crit coming from KC depends on your crit rate as a hunter so it makes the whole calculation very messy. I'm working on a FI/frenzy uptime calculator which includes KC crits as well, don't know when I'll finish it. Tonight I just tested the FI uptime on blasted lands mob. In 2 minutes of shooting FI was up 117 seconds. Pet crit chances were 33% KC crit, 8% LB crit, 17.9% melee crit.

Assume pet crits once and enters FI for 10 seconds and frenzy for 8 seconds. In 10 second time the first 8 seconds pet has 0.98 attack speed with frenzy, that means he outputs 8 white attacks in 8 second time and then at least one more until FI fades away, that's 9 white attacks. Pets white crit chance is exactly 15%, so out of those 9 attacks, the chance of none of them critting is 0.85^9 = 0.23. Then there's lightning breaths. In 10 seconds, pet outputs 4.34 many LB's (2.3 average time between LB). LB crit chance is around 11%, so the chance none of those 4 LB's crit is 0.89^4 = 0.627. Then there's kill command. Assuming you use 2 times KC in 10 seconds, KC's crit chance is 35%, so the chance of 2 KC's not critting is 0.65^2=0.4225. When you take the product of all of them

0.23*0.627*0.4225=0.06. That's less than 1 in a thousand. So once the pet goes into FI, the chance of ever getting out is extremely low.
I agree that it complicates the equation, but I did acknowledge that I was ignoring special attacks (including KC). It's not hard to determine the average period between KCs (and consequently the average time between KC procs). I see your point, but again, it wasn't something I was going to address with those equations for reasons you pointed out - they don't account for special attacks and KC.
#1020SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
The problem with pet crit is Kill Command. KC triggers FI/frezy as well when it crits and the crit coming from KC depends on your crit rate as a hunter so it makes the whole calculation very messy.
Emphasis mine. Do you have a source for this? I've seen nothing to indicate that KC uses the hunter's crit rate. Are you forgetting the talent that increases KC's crit rate by 20%?
#1021SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Lactose
When I read it I thought:
For a Kill Command to crit, it must first be used.
For a Kill Command to be used, the Hunter must crit.
Thus, how often Kill Command crits (and is used) depends on the Hunter's crit rate.
Reading it again, however, does leave me with doubts, though...
#1022SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Tumas
hmm steady-auto sequence + scorpid = win as bm :o
#1023SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Female Tauren
I usually have 300-500 ms, which wasn't that bad when I was MM. Now as BM I find my latency a lot more noticable. The biggest problem I have seems to be KC. I tried to macro it with steady, then arcane and multi, and got pretty bad delays. Now I manually do it, but an extra button to press + lag really messes up my rotations.

For the people who have high latency, how do you work around it as BM?




Also as a bonus question, do you think Wolfslayer gun or even Don Santo's gun is better than Sunfury bow? The guns have a lot less dead time, not to mention DS gun proc adds another level to scorpid poison madness.
#1024SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
When I read it I thought:
For a Kill Command to crit, it must first be used.
For a Kill Command to be used, the Hunter must crit.
Thus, how often Kill Command crits (and is used) depends on the Hunter's crit rate.
Reading it again, however, does leave me with doubts, though...
That's the line of thinking you have to use to find the average time between kill commands. This work isn't mine (you can find it in this thread on tkasomething http://forums.tkasomething.com/viewtopic.php?t=4231) but I'll put it here, since we're discussing it now:
Originally Posted by Aesa
The crit that triggers KC can either occur before or after the cooldown is up. As I calculated before the probability of this occurring should be:

P = 1 - (1-C)^N, where N = floor(5*R)

The time it takes to fire off these shots is less than or equal to 5, and we can calculate it exactly as:

Tpc = N/R (time that post-cooldown shots start)

This number is important for the next part. Now we figure that if there's a P chance of getting a crit during the cooldown, there's a (1-P) chance of getting the crit after the cooldown. Once we're past the cooldown of KC, crits are truly a Poisson process so we can safely use the property that the mean number of post-cooldown shots before a crit should be 1/C. The time for 1/C shots to occur is simply 1/(R*C). Now all we have to do is add in the time that these post-cooldown shots start going off, which is Tpc. What we end up with is this:

Tpcc = Tpc + 1/(R*C) (average time that a post-cooldown crit will occur)

Now we have all the information we need to find the average period of Kill Command. We can calculate it this way:

T = P*5 + (1-P)*Tpcc

And that's it! Basically I'm saying that a fraction P of the time, the KC interval will be 5 seconds, and another fraction (1-P) of the time, it will take the time needed to get a post-cooldown crit (Tpcc). These can be used to form a weighted average time.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the number of KCs inside a single FI/Frenzy buff duration (10 or 8 seconds, respectively) can be either 0, 1, or 2. You either get no hunter crits to allow for KCs or you get at least one crit; depending on the cooldown state of KC and if you get another crit, you may or may not get a second KC in. This greatly simplifies calculating uptime since you can't do partial KCs - the number of KCs must be an integer; because of this you can establish upper and lower bounds. Furthermore, it is very difficult (nearly impossible without simulation, I'd estimate) to know what the cooldown state of KC is, on average, at the start of every FI/Frenzy duration.

Similarly, you can estimate how many non-kc specials by estimating focus regen (which we know how to do) and assuming that your pet will be spamming abilities. A simple focus-accounting approach should give you the number of special attacks that can crit in an average span of time with an arbitrary length.

I realize that using time-averaged methods isn't exactly everyone's favorite approach, but distributing for time greatly simplifies the math and, over sufficiently long periods of time, time-averaged models agree with reality fairly well.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 06/13/07 at 8:41 AM. Reason: editted for formatting
#1025SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
jarlelin
Ahh never mind, it was edited and fixed allready.

Last edited by jarlelin : 06/13/07 at 8:52 AM. Reason: unnecessary post
#1026SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Breakerone
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post


Also as a bonus question, do you think Wolfslayer gun or even Don Santo's gun is better than Sunfury bow? The guns have a lot less dead time, not to mention DS gun proc adds another level to scorpid poison madness.
If you use the wolfslayer and also the 43 dps ammo, yes, your dps will be higher then with sunfury if you get your rotation out correctly. Might even be better without the better ammo, I havent checked that, but with it you are about 3,5% above the sunfury.
#1027SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
When I read it I thought:
For a Kill Command to crit, it must first be used.
For a Kill Command to be used, the Hunter must crit.
Thus, how often Kill Command crits (and is used) depends on the Hunter's crit rate.
Reading it again, however, does leave me with doubts, though...
Yes that's what I meant, sorry for confusion.
#1028SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
That's the line of thinking you have to use to find the average time between kill commands. This work isn't mine (you can find it in this thread on tkasomething http://forums.tkasomething.com/viewtopic.php?t=4231) but I'll put it here, since we're discussing it now:

Another thing to keep in mind is that the number of KCs inside a single FI/Frenzy buff duration (10 or 8 seconds, respectively) can be either 0, 1, or 2. You either get no hunter crits to allow for KCs or you get at least one crit; depending on the cooldown state of KC and if you get another crit, you may or may not get a second KC in. This greatly simplifies calculating uptime since you can't do partial KCs - the number of KCs must be an integer; because of this you can establish upper and lower bounds. Furthermore, it is very difficult (nearly impossible without simulation, I'd estimate) to know what the cooldown state of KC is, on average, at the start of every FI/Frenzy duration.

Similarly, you can estimate how many non-kc specials by estimating focus regen (which we know how to do) and assuming that your pet will be spamming abilities. A simple focus-accounting approach should give you the number of special attacks that can crit in an average span of time with an arbitrary length.

I realize that using time-averaged methods isn't exactly everyone's favorite approach, but distributing for time greatly simplifies the math and, over sufficiently long periods of time, time-averaged models agree with reality fairly well.
Agreed. My average time between KC's over a long boss fight is approximately 6.5 seconds, I have around 27% crit in raids. I don't think the main reason why it's not every 5 seconds is not the crit chance, it's the steady casting. I see KC going active all the time but I can't spam it because of the casting time which is probably why nobody, regardless of crit chance, will ever get 5 seconds between KC's unless they are forcing it with /stopcast.
#1029SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Bhoris
This is my WWS for our first Morogrim kill a few nights ago:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=949-1483&a=34

I need to play around with my combat logs a little because I'm not getting some of the raid members, but that info on me is accurate. I got incredibly unlucky with my poison tick falling off a couple times, thus the reason it's not as high as it should be. Last night, we did him again, and my pet alone did 280k (scorpid using rank 4 poison and no other abilities that require focus) and I was over 140k above our number 2 DPSer.
Bottom line is, even after I had serious doubts, BM has won me over. Sure it suffers some on certain fights, but then in the real e-peen contests such as fights like Morogrim and even Karathress (which I tore apart also), your dps can just be amazing.

The one thing I know I need to work on a little more is using KC.


I just recalced my numbers for last night. My pet combined with my dmg was right over 740,000, and we were right at 8.5 minutes, meaning around 1450 dps.

Last edited by Bhoris : 06/13/07 at 2:53 PM.
#1030SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1BigBlue
For me, with my owl who spams screech, FI is up almost all the time. I want to say 99% but as a human I can not really say that. I dont use KC for the crit to put up FI but just to add a little extra dps. However, I am not even sure KC is worth the extra trouble. If KC averages 1000 (including misses and crits [generous?]) every 6 seconds (generous) that would be 167 dps. While 167 dps is quite a bit to add, it is also a lot to add to use KC every time it is up. Anyone have similar feelings? With my horrible FPS combined with not so great latency KC seems to not fit in any steady/auto rotation. If I use multi/arcane then I can fit it in. Anyone have similar experiences? Is there a way to make KC easy to use with an auot/steady rotation? I have it set to mouse wheel up but it is just one more thing to do, and I forget and/or mistime it.

As I mentioned, I raid with an owl. The screech debuff stacks with other AP debuffs. One tank claimed it took off about 500 damage per hit from Magtheridon, is this possible? Can anyone explain how screech effects mob dps? I know for a player -210ap is about -15dps (to white damage). Is screech really worth the loss in dps from not using a scorpid as a BM hunter?
#1031SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
Sure it suffers some on certain fights, but then in the real e-peen contests such as fights like Morogrim and even Karathress (which I tore apart also), your dps can just be amazing.
I didn't see any fights where BM suffers compared to MM, in the whole SSC and TK. Maybe void reaver but if you have shadowpriest in group you don't even have to mend pet to keep pet up even in that fight.
#1032SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Agreed. My average time between KC's over a long boss fight is approximately 6.5 seconds, I have around 27% crit in raids. I don't think the main reason why it's not every 5 seconds is not the crit chance, it's the steady casting. I see KC going active all the time but I can't spam it because of the casting time which is probably why nobody, regardless of crit chance, will ever get 5 seconds between KC's unless they are forcing it with /stopcast.
I agree, but again, at some point I have to make reasonable assumptions to be able to calculate approximate up times. While Aesa's math provides the best way to determine average time between being able to use KC, for the FI/Frenzy uptime calculation I think using upper and lower bounds are the best way to approach things. The task of determining cooldown state of KC at the start of any given FI/Frenzy buff duration is non trivial. Since we know what the boundaries are (and they won't make that large a difference - I'm guessing less than 5% in total uptime once non-KC specials are considered) I prefer simply to say "it's between x and y" and leave it at that. Given that the uptimes already approach 100%, the question is largely academic and it's my opinion that it bears little significance with respect to actual damage output (although I've been wrong in the past!).

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 06/13/07 at 3:48 PM. Reason: corrected spelling; that=than
#1033SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Trohck
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I didn't see any fights where BM suffers compared to MM, in the whole SSC and TK. Maybe void reaver but if you have shadowpriest in group you don't even have to mend pet to keep pet up even in that fight.
Kael'thas is the only fight in either instance where I found myself wishing I wasn't BM.
#1034SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I agree, but again, at some point I have to make reasonable assumptions to be able to calculate approximate up times. While Aesa's math provides the best way to determine average time between being able to use KC, for the FI/Frenzy uptime calculation I think using upper and lower bounds are the best way to approach things. The task of determining cooldown state of KC at the start of any given FI/Frenzy buff duration is non trivial. Since we know what the boundaries are (and they won't make that large a difference - I'm guessing less that 5% in total uptime once non-KC specials are considered) I prefer simply to say "it's between x and y" and leave it at that. Given that the uptimes already approach 100%, the question is largely academic and it's my opinion that it bears little significance with respect to actual damage output (although I've been wrong in the past!).
Indeed. Calculating the exact uptime is math I won't bother to get my hands messy for.
#1035SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
Kael'thas is the only fight in either instance where I found myself wishing I wasn't BM.
Yesterday in our Kael kill, my pet didn't die once and he was damaging 99% of the time after phase 1.
#1036SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1lilwolfe
Some of the recent posts brought up an interesting thought for me. I currently have the Wolf Slayer but am still farming Prince for the bow. This was a goal I'd had back when I was MM. Should I not worry about it? If I remember right from old posts, I should aim for weapon speeds of 2.6-2.8 or something right?
#1037SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Leica
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
I just recalced my numbers for last night. My pet combined with my dmg was right over 740,000, and we were right at 8.5 minutes, meaning around 1450 dps.
Your pet is included in your damage on WWS, that's why his skill break down shows up with your skill breakdown. When you recalculated your damage you were counting the pet a second time.
#1038SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Well if you are sticking with MM I'd say get a 2.6 speed weapon but unfortunately there isn't anything at that speed right now. Blizzard should add some faster weapons for Surv/MM hunters definitely.
#1039SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1lilwolfe
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Well if you are sticking with MM I'd say get a 2.6 speed weapon but unfortunately there isn't anything at that speed right now. Blizzard should add some faster weapons for Surv/MM hunters definitely.

Nope, I'm BM now. (returned back to it actually) So I've sorta lost track on the who wants what weapon speed, etcetc.
#1040SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Bonester
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Well if you are sticking with MM I'd say get a 2.6 speed weapon but unfortunately there isn't anything at that speed right now. Blizzard should add some faster weapons for Surv/MM hunters definitely.
Barrel-Blade Longrifle from Doomwalker is 2.6 speed. With the new engineering gun available; hopefully tanks won't want it anymore.
#1041SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Bonester View Post
Barrel-Blade Longrifle from Doomwalker is 2.6 speed. With the new engineering gun available; hopefully tanks won't want it anymore.
Yeah but there are no end game weapons at those speeds. All the high dps ones are 2.9 or above. That's what I meant. Blizzard should add some 2.6 speed bows/guns to BT loot table.
#1042SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Elvandir
With the advent of the Haste Rating itemisation in BT and beyond, would this change the BM/MM dynamic? As you can now tailor your attack speeds in MM or Surv closer to the golden number for your pesronal rotation.
#1043SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Maybe, but how many haste rating items are there in BT for hunters? I only know a pair of gloves so far. We'll see more soon probably.
#1044SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Elvandir
How much rating is 20% haste?
#1045SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 topojijo
I'm exceptionally confused by hunters who are saying ferocious inspiration is up say 75%+ of the time. For me on an average boss fight it seems to be about 33% of the time.

Take the following Prince kill I was involved http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=4sihhcmrdmyxw

I've got to be missing something here on why my pet isn't hitting this very high uptime?
#1046SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Osse
If FI is up allready and it gets renewed it doesnt count those. Most of the time on stable fights FI doesnt drop more than like 5 times for me when using a ravager and auto/steady/kc macro.
#1047SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Sienna
FI is up 99% of the time, let alone 75%. Unless you pull your pet back constantly. Btw I was a bit careless about that FI uptime calculation, the chance of pet getting out of FI was 0.06, I said it's less than 1 in a thousand, where it's actually 6%, not 0.06%. My mistake

Last edited by Sienna : 06/14/07 at 2:19 AM.
#1048SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Moridin
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Yeah but there are no end game weapons at those speeds. All the high dps ones are 2.9 or above. That's what I meant. Blizzard should add some 2.6 speed bows/guns to BT loot table.
Well they did add a gun to bt loot table, it does make me wonder though, whats with blizzard and tanking rangeds?
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32325
#1049SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
orsraunia
Recently i tested BM spec for the first time after 2.1 patch. I was surprised to see that the miss chance of pets was reduced from about 20% (pre-patch) to 9-11%.
Other than that, my experience of the spec is exactly how i expected it to be. My testing of BM spec, proved it to be a very good spec for boss fights where your pet can stay on the boss or his adds (Karathress) and DPS for a significant amount of time, but not as good as MM in certain boss fights. Below i'll state the problems associated with BM spec and certain SSC and TK boss fights, as i have experienced them.

(Note: I haven't tested BM spec at Vashj or Kael'thas, any feedback about the problems or difficulties (if any) associated with BM spec and these fights, would be highly appreciated. At Morogrim, Karathress and Leotheras, as a BM i had no problems. On Solarian fight there are some issues, but they can be overcome in my opinion)

1. Hydross: You can't use your pet at frost phase without risking its death or the death of melee DPS.

2. The Lurker Below: Spout is not a big problem, but spout combined with whirl is a big problem and it will kill your pet. Additionaly, by being on one of the small islands, you can't control your pet good enough so as to avoid whirl, while keeping it on boss for a reasonable amount of time.

3. Voidreaver: You'll have to pull your pet back at pounding or constantly heal it. At the same time, you need to be (like everyone else) careful of any orbs coming towards your way. Additionaly, a melee dps running away to avoid pounding, can be the target of an orb.

4. Al'Ar: I have experienced a strange thing. At 90% of times, when i send my pet on Al'Ar (phase 1) while he is at platform 2 or 3 (the middle ones), Al'Ar turns and kills my pet. I suspect that this has to do with his hitbox and maybe with the fact that the pet at these platforms, gets really close to Al'Ar, closer than the Tank is. I am 100% sure that it has nothing to do with threat generation, as i tried sending the pet after the tank had him for a long time and of course growl is off. Additionaly, during phase 2, you can't send your pet on Al'Ar immediately after he reapears (after a meteor), but only after the tank has a good hold on him and after you have checked that there are no flame patches between you and Al'Ar or close to where Al'Ar is being tanked. If you choose to send your pet on the adds, you'll have to wait for the tanks assigned to adds to get a decent hold on them and you'll have to pull your pet back before each of the two adds is killed and explodes. Having to repeat this a lot of times during the fight, reduces your DPS by a significant amount.

Being a BM, your DPS rely on your pet's survivability a lot more than a MM's DPS does. After patch 2.1 the pet's survivability has been significantly increased, additionaly you can heal your pet without having to channel the mend pet, saving you effective DPS time. All these changes are good and BM is a valid raiding spec, but i can't stop to believe that some of the hunters who are fond of BM spec tend to overate its power. They do this, by not taking into account the time the pet is not on the boss DPSing, the increased time they need for decision making (like check for flame patches on Al'Ar fight), the time and mana they spend to revive their pet (i am taking into account that almost all BMs have the improved revive pet talent, but still...).

Being a BM, your whole party benefits from FI, while you also benefit from the increased pet's DPS while Frenzy is up and from the increased damage your pet does in general. On certain boss fights, as the ones i have stated above, you have to pull your pet back or the boss disapears for a few time. At such occasions, the % of time that your overal DPS benefits from your increased pet's DPS, FI and Frenzy is significantly less than the % some people mention. These people do not take into account the % of time your pet will not be DPSing, but running towards you, towards the boss, standing next to you or being dead. This results in reduced uptime of Frenzy and FI and far away from the theoreticaly calculated ones.

Do not misunderstand me, i do not mean to imply that BM is a worse spec than MM.

But by all means, i insist that a MM hunter brings to the raid good, reliable DPS, less affected by the nature of the fight, less likely to significantly fluctuate on different boss fights or on different raiding nights. BM is a good raiding spec, but i do not agree with the people that insist on calling MM spec outdated, dead or worse than BM spec.

After testing BM once again, my decision is to go back to MM. Becasue as a BM:
1. 33-39% of my total damage has a larger "response time", a fact that makes a significant impact on fights where you need to DPS down multiple adds (e.g.Lurker, Al'Ar) and your pet is forced to run around a lot. In these fights, your response time (meaning the time you need to switch from one target to another) is a lot less than your pet's response time. The FI and Frenzy uptime is significantly less than the time you effectively DPS. All these result in reduced DPS.
2. 33-39% of my total damage is affected by factors tied to the nature of the boss fight and specific boss abilities, factors i have little control of.
3. The pet's survivability is reduced at mobility fights (e.g. flame patches at Al'Ar). Either your pet will die a reasonable amount of times or you'll have to spend more time on managing it and thus less time on DPSing. Additionaly, you'll have to heal it more often, losing time and mana, or in the worst case scenario that can happen sometimes, you'll have keep it close to you for a reasonable amount of time. This happens becasue you can't control your pet fast enough to avoid such effects and you can't control it towards all directions. You can only send it to attack following a straight line, or call it back to you, same again, following a straight line.

All the above, combined with the fact that as a MM your pet's damage contributes significantly less to your total damage, make the MM spec the right choice for me.
My best judgement is that as a MM i can bring to the raid more stable and reliable DPS, less affected by the nature of the boss fight. My best judgement is that it's more important to contribute to the raid's effort by always doing high DPS, among other things, and staying alive, than excel in some fights and underperform in some others.

In the end, it's all about what one raid needs and what one considers as more important.

Note that all my above statements assume that the hunter is in high knowledge of both specs, knows how to play good with each of them and how to benefit the most from it. If your experience of the boss fights i mention, as a BM, is different than what i describe, i'd be very interested on hearing you out.

Last edited by orsraunia : 06/14/07 at 1:28 PM. Reason: typo
#1050SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Lysander1
Originally Posted by topojijo View Post
I'm exceptionally confused by hunters who are saying ferocious inspiration is up say 75%+ of the time. For me on an average boss fight it seems to be about 33% of the time.

Take the following Prince kill I was involved http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=4sihhcmrdmyxw

I've got to be missing something here on why my pet isn't hitting this very high uptime?
The funny thing about WWS is that the only way it can tell that FI was applied is if FI fades and then is reapplied. Therefore, the number of FI gains past 1 (1 being the first time FI was applied) is actually the number of times FI dropped. Of course you still won't know the uptime, because you don't know how long FI dropped for.. but hey, its something. In essence you want the lowest number of "FI gains" as possible, but thats not really true either. In one fight your pet could constantly be reapplying FI half a second after the buff dropped, causing many "FI gain" messages, but a very high uptime regardless while in the next you could get an unlucky streak for 20 seconds but ONLY have that one FI drop.
#1051SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Breakerone
Has anyone noticed some strange behaviour of +hit and how much hit is needed in SSC?
I was running with another hunter, which is SV and was wondering how he was able to do so much dps on a lurker fight, while his pet died immediately and mine was up all the time and I am BM.
I was my first time in SSC that week, so I lost a lot of time for managing the pet and watching the fights. Nontheless I looked at his gear and he had like 54 crit rating + his 3% from the talent.

Now the thing is, he didnt miss one single shot in whole SSC and the logs of the following week with all the other bosses were the same:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=xctk3flh3vsec

On one fight I went down to 94 hit rating myself and didnt miss anything as well.

Is there something special about SSC concerning hit/miss?
#1052SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Inudemon
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
If your experience of the boss fights i mention, as a BM, is different than what i describe, i'd be very interested on hearing you out.
I generally don't have any problems keeping my pet alive in raids, but I haven't done Al'ar, Vashj, or Kael yet, so I can't comment on those fights. However, I can comment on some of the bosses that you listed above.

Hydross - I'm fairly certain that pets are immune to Tomb, and also won't chain Tomb to nearby melee. I have never seen my pet get Water Tomb nor have I ever seen any melee die due to my pet.

Lurker - I always dps from the center (Northern) platform. What I do is put my pet on stay outside of whirl range while we're buffing before I head to my platform, and just call it back when theres ~3 sec until whirl. It also needs to be called back just after spout, as Lurker always Whirls immediately afterwards.

Void Reaver - This is indeed a very annoying fight if you don't have a shadow priest, or if your healers don't like to heal pets. I have my pet specced for max AR (180 raid buffed w/ mark) so I never pull it back, but I do have to heal often, and it usually winds up dying at around 30-40% when I'm starved for mana.
#1053SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1okla
i did a full run on 96 hit rating lastnight, missed as much as i should have had.
Actually took interest in that when i was deciding on picking up some t5.
This was tested with recap, not with wws.
#1054SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Spiry
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Has anyone noticed some strange behaviour of +hit and how much hit is needed in SSC?
I was running with another hunter, which is SV and was wondering how he was able to do so much dps on a lurker fight, while his pet died immediately and mine was up all the time and I am BM.
I was my first time in SSC that week, so I lost a lot of time for managing the pet and watching the fights. Nontheless I looked at his gear and he had like 54 crit rating + his 3% from the talent.

Now the thing is, he didnt miss one single shot in whole SSC and the logs of the following week with all the other bosses were the same:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=xctk3flh3vsec

On one fight I went down to 94 hit rating myself and didnt miss anything as well.

Is there something special about SSC concerning hit/miss?
I ran SSC last week and on morogrim tries, had a hit rating of 99, as I had forgotten to switch my rings out :S

I don't use WWS or recap or anything like that atm, but the big fat MISS(STEADY SHOT) floating above my head multiple times throughout the night I feel goes to show that there is nothing special about the hitcap in SSC, as I have no issues with my 141 (wtb gear with less hit Q_Q).
#1055SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
synergi
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
Recently i tested BM spec for the first time after 2.1 patch. I was surprised to see that the miss chance of pets was reduced from about 20% (pre-patch) to 9-11%.
Other than that, my experience of the spec is exactly how i expected it to be. My testing of BM spec, proved it to be a very good spec for boss fights where your pet can stay on the boss or his adds (Karathress) and DPS for a significant amount of time, but not as good as MM in certain boss fights. Below i'll state the problems associated with BM spec and certain SSC and TK boss fights, as i have experienced them.

(Note: I haven't tested BM spec at Vashj or Kael'thas, any feedback about the problems or difficulties (if any) associated with BM spec and these fights, would be highly appreciated. At Morogrim, Karathress and Leotheras, as a BM i had no problems. On Solarian fight there are some issues, but they can be overcome in my opinion)

1. Hydross: You can't use your pet at frost phase without risking its death or the death of melee DPS.

2. The Lurker Below: Spout is not a big problem, but spout combined with whirl is a big problem and it will kill your pet. Additionaly, by being on one of the small islands, you can't control your pet good enough so as to avoid whirl, while keeping it on boss for a reasonable amount of time.

3. Voidwalker: You'll have to pull your pet back at pounding or constantly heal it. At the same time, you need to be (like everyone else) careful of any orbs coming towards your way. Additionaly, a melee dps running away to avoid pounding, can be the target of an orb.

4. Al'Ar: I have experienced a strange thing. At 90% of times, when i send my pet on Al'Ar (phase 1) while he is at platform 2 or 3 (the middle ones), Al'Ar turns and kills my pet. I suspect that this has to do with his hitbox and maybe with the fact that the pet at these platforms, gets really close to Al'Ar, closer than the Tank is. I am 100% sure that it has nothing to do with threat generation, as i tried sending the pet after the tank had him for a long time and of course growl is off. Additionaly, during phase 2, you can't send your pet on Al'Ar immediately after he reapears (after a meteor), but only after the tank has a good hold on him and after you have checked that there are no flame patches between you and Al'Ar or close to where Al'Ar is being tanked. If you choose to send your pet on the adds, you'll have to wait for the tanks assigned to adds to get a decent hold on them and you'll have to pull your pet back before each of the two adds is killed and explodes. Having to repeat this a lot of times during the fight, reduces your DPS by a significant amount.

Being a BM, your DPS rely on your pet's survivability a lot more than a MM's DPS does. After patch 2.1 the pet's survivability has been significantly increased, additionaly you can heal your pet without having to channel the mend pet, saving you effective DPS time. All these changes are good and BM is a valid raiding spec, but i can't stop to believe that some of the hunters who are fond of BM spec tend to overate its power. They do this, by not taking into account the time the pet is not on the boss DPSing, the increased time they need for decision making (like check for flame patches on Al'Ar fight), the time and mana they spend to revive their pet (i am taking into account that almost all BMs have the improved revive pet talent, but still...).

Being a BM, your whole party benefits from FI, while you also benefit from the increased pet's DPS while Frenzy is up and from the increased damage your pet does in general. On certain boss fights, as the ones i have stated above, you have to pull your pet back or the boss disapears for a few time. At such occasions, the % of time that your overal DPS benefits from your increased pet's DPS, FI and Frenzy is significantly less than the % some people mention. These people do not take into account the % of time your pet will not be DPSing, but running towards you, towards the boss, standing next to you or being dead. This results in reduced uptime of Frenzy and FI and far away from the theoreticaly calculated ones.

Do not misunderstand me, i do not mean to imply that BM is a worse spec than MM.

But by all means, i insist that a MM hunter brings to the raid good, reliable DPS, less affected by the nature of the fight, less likely to significantly fluctuate on different boss fights or on different raiding nights. BM is a good raiding spec, but i do not agree with the people that insist on calling MM spec outdated, dead or worse than BM spec.

After testing BM once again, my decision is to go back to MM. Becasue as a BM:
1. 33-39% of my total damage has a larger "response time", a fact that makes a significant impact on fights where you need to DPS down multiple adds (e.g.Lurker, Al'Ar) and your pet is forced to run around a lot. In these fights, your response time (meaning the time you need to switch from one target to another) is a lot less than your pet's response time. The FI and Frenzy uptime is significantly less than the time you effectively DPS. All these result in reduced DPS.
2. 33-39% of my total damage is affected by factors tied to the nature of the boss fight and specific boss abilities, factors i have little control of.
3. The pet's survivability is reduced at mobility fights (e.g. flame patches at Al'Ar). Either your pet will die a reasonable amount of times or you'll have to spend more time on managing it and thus less time on DPSing. Additionaly, you'll have to heal it more often, losing time and mana, or in the worst case scenario that can happen sometimes, you'll have keep it close to you for a reasonable amount of time. This happens becasue you can't control your pet fast enough to avoid such effects and you can't control it towards all directions. You can only send it to attack following a straight line, or call it back to you, same again, following a straight line.

All the above, combined with the fact that as a MM your pet's damage contributes significantly less to your total damage, make the MM spec the right choice for me.
My best judgement is that as a MM i can bring to the raid more stable and reliable DPS, less affected by the nature of the boss fight. My best judgement is that it's more important to contribute to the raid's effort by always doing high DPS, among other things, and staying alive, than excel in some fights and underperform in some others.

In the end, it's all about what one raid needs and what one considers as more important.

Note that all my above statements assume that the hunter is in high knowledge of both specs, knows how to play good with each of them and how to benefit the most from it. If your experience of the boss fights i mention, as a BM, is different than what i describe, i'd be very interested on hearing you out.
Orsraunia mate, very good post.

I couldn’t have written that better myself, for a while i have been thinking exaclty the same, but everyone else appears to be loving BM!!! Unless you have completely mastered the encounters as BM the time lost in pet not damaging seems to be huge.

I have been MM since the launch except Survival for ten months but when the nerf’ed AGI for Hunters going back to MM. I have tried BM now for a month, levelled up a Ravenger, re-changed UI, got a decent macro to spam but find this build frustrating. In certain Boss fights BM beats the rest as mentioned but what i am after is consistent high DPS for my raid, due to this thinking of returning to back MM...

Any advice would be very much appreciated...

Cheers, syn

Last edited by synergi : 06/14/07 at 8:29 AM.
#1056SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Breakerone
Originally Posted by okla View Post
i did a full run on 96 hit rating lastnight, missed as much as i should have had.
Actually took interest in that when i was deciding on picking up some t5.
This was tested with recap, not with wws.
Very strange, then WWS must not be able to count misses in SSC, because his hit rate is definately around 6% including the talent and as you can see in the log there are no misses. He also says that his recap/sws is not recording any misses, but thats something I cannot prove.
#1057SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Osse
Finally got second part of t5 yesterday and all I can say about it is... MADNESS!

About hit rating.. I ran around with 91 hit rating + Kazzak pants and on most of the WWS logs I had 0.3-0.5% miss rate on average.

Ps. pets are immune to Hydross frost tomb.
#1058SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
Recently i tested BM spec for the first time after 2.1 patch. I was surprised to see that the miss chance of pets was reduced from about 20% (pre-patch) to 9-11%.
Other than that, my experience of the spec is exactly how i expected it to be. My testing of BM spec, proved it to be a very good spec for boss fights where your pet can stay on the boss or his adds (Karathress) and DPS for a significant amount of time, but not as good as MM in certain boss fights. Below i'll state the problems associated with BM spec and certain SSC and TK boss fights, as i have experienced them.

(Note: I haven't tested BM spec at Vashj or Kael'thas, any feedback about the problems or difficulties (if any) associated with BM spec and these fights, would be highly appreciated. At Morogrim, Karathress and Leotheras, as a BM i had no problems. On Solarian fight there are some issues, but they can be overcome in my opinion)

1. Hydross: You can't use your pet at frost phase without risking its death or the death of melee DPS.

2. The Lurker Below: Spout is not a big problem, but spout combined with whirl is a big problem and it will kill your pet. Additionaly, by being on one of the small islands, you can't control your pet good enough so as to avoid whirl, while keeping it on boss for a reasonable amount of time.

3. Voidwalker: You'll have to pull your pet back at pounding or constantly heal it. At the same time, you need to be (like everyone else) careful of any orbs coming towards your way. Additionaly, a melee dps running away to avoid pounding, can be the target of an orb.

4. Al'Ar: I have experienced a strange thing. At 90% of times, when i send my pet on Al'Ar (phase 1) while he is at platform 2 or 3 (the middle ones), Al'Ar turns and kills my pet. I suspect that this has to do with his hitbox and maybe with the fact that the pet at these platforms, gets really close to Al'Ar, closer than the Tank is. I am 100% sure that it has nothing to do with threat generation, as i tried sending the pet after the tank had him for a long time and of course growl is off. Additionaly, during phase 2, you can't send your pet on Al'Ar immediately after he reapears (after a meteor), but only after the tank has a good hold on him and after you have checked that there are no flame patches between you and Al'Ar or close to where Al'Ar is being tanked. If you choose to send your pet on the adds, you'll have to wait for the tanks assigned to adds to get a decent hold on them and you'll have to pull your pet back before each of the two adds is killed and explodes. Having to repeat this a lot of times during the fight, reduces your DPS by a significant amount.

Being a BM, your DPS rely on your pet's survivability a lot more than a MM's DPS does. After patch 2.1 the pet's survivability has been significantly increased, additionaly you can heal your pet without having to channel the mend pet, saving you effective DPS time. All these changes are good and BM is a valid raiding spec, but i can't stop to believe that some of the hunters who are fond of BM spec tend to overate its power. They do this, by not taking into account the time the pet is not on the boss DPSing, the increased time they need for decision making (like check for flame patches on Al'Ar fight), the time and mana they spend to revive their pet (i am taking into account that almost all BMs have the improved revive pet talent, but still...).

Being a BM, your whole party benefits from FI, while you also benefit from the increased pet's DPS while Frenzy is up and from the increased damage your pet does in general. On certain boss fights, as the ones i have stated above, you have to pull your pet back or the boss disapears for a few time. At such occasions, the % of time that your overal DPS benefits from your increased pet's DPS, FI and Frenzy is significantly less than the % some people mention. These people do not take into account the % of time your pet will not be DPSing, but running towards you, towards the boss, standing next to you or being dead. This results in reduced uptime of Frenzy and FI and far away from the theoreticaly calculated ones.

Do not misunderstand me, i do not mean to imply that BM is a worse spec than MM.

But by all means, i insist that a MM hunter brings to the raid good, reliable DPS, less affected by the nature of the fight, less likely to significantly fluctuate on different boss fights or on different raiding nights. BM is a good raiding spec, but i do not agree with the people that insist on calling MM spec outdated, dead or worse than BM spec.

After testing BM once again, my decision is to go back to MM. Becasue as a BM:
1. 33-39% of my total damage has a larger "response time", a fact that makes a significant impact on fights where you need to DPS down multiple adds (e.g.Lurker, Al'Ar) and your pet is forced to run around a lot. In these fights, your response time (meaning the time you need to switch from one target to another) is a lot less than your pet's response time. The FI and Frenzy uptime is significantly less than the time you effectively DPS. All these result in reduced DPS.
2. 33-39% of my total damage is affected by factors tied to the nature of the boss fight and specific boss abilities, factors i have little control of.
3. The pet's survivability is reduced at mobility fights (e.g. flame patches at Al'Ar). Either your pet will die a reasonable amount of times or you'll have to spend more time on managing it and thus less time on DPSing. Additionaly, you'll have to heal it more often, losing time and mana, or in the worst case scenario that can happen sometimes, you'll have keep it close to you for a reasonable amount of time. This happens becasue you can't control your pet fast enough to avoid such effects and you can't control it towards all directions. You can only send it to attack following a straight line, or call it back to you, same again, following a straight line.

All the above, combined with the fact that as a MM your pet's damage contributes significantly less to your total damage, make the MM spec the right choice for me.
My best judgement is that as a MM i can bring to the raid more stable and reliable DPS, less affected by the nature of the boss fight. My best judgement is that it's more important to contribute to the raid's effort by always doing high DPS, among other things, and staying alive, than excel in some fights and underperform in some others.

In the end, it's all about what one raid needs and what one considers as more important.

Note that all my above statements assume that the hunter is in high knowledge of both specs, knows how to play good with each of them and how to benefit the most from it. If your experience of the boss fights i mention, as a BM, is different than what i describe, i'd be very interested on hearing you out.

On Hydros pets don't chain the tomb effect. I never pull my pet back from hydros during that fight, not once did my pet die or get anyone killed.

On Lurker, you never get sprout+whirl that instantly after another. Always have time to mend your pet. I place my pet in the main platform and jump to my island and just keep the pet on Lurker at all times. The only problem is I cannot use it on the adds when they spawn most of the time because when I call pet, he doesn't come to my island, sometimes he teleports, but mostly he just stays there on the main island. Probably a bug.

On void reaver, unless you have shadowpriest in group, there's no way you can keep your pet up with mend pet so ask for a shadowpriest.

On Alar, he never killed my pet so far, I'm unaware of that problem you described. It's one of the easiest fights to keep pet alive.
#1059SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sapa
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Has anyone noticed some strange behaviour of +hit and how much hit is needed in SSC?
I was running with another hunter, which is SV and was wondering how he was able to do so much dps on a lurker fight, while his pet died immediately and mine was up all the time and I am BM.
I was my first time in SSC that week, so I lost a lot of time for managing the pet and watching the fights. Nontheless I looked at his gear and he had like 54 crit rating + his 3% from the talent.

Is there something special about SSC concerning hit/miss?
I take it you meant Hit Rating

And i guess he is Troll hunter with Sunfury/Vashy bow.

54hit+ 3/3 surefooted + 5skill = ? ~8,7% hit? (if 1 skill = 0,24% hit, like we thought about it pre tbc/melee skill changes)
#1060SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Noah
I'm another one who will sing the praises of the 2 piece (Tier 5) bonus, sell your soul to get it if you're BM spec. 10k healing from procs is not unusual on your average boss fight.

As far as weapon skill goes I'm pretty sure it's adding a chunk of hit rating, and not the tiny amount that some people are saying it does. +0.24 to hit per skill point seems likely, I was under the cap by about 25 rating for a long time while using Sunfury and misses were so rare I could actually remember them. If I was missing 1% of the time I'd expect to be seeing it happen every boss fight, but I didn't.
#1061SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Breakerone
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
I take it you meant Hit Rating

And i guess he is Troll hunter with Sunfury/Vashy bow.

54hit+ 3/3 surefooted + 5skill = ? ~8,7% hit? (if 1 skill = 0,24% hit, like we thought about it pre tbc/melee skill changes)
Yes, I meant hit rating

But I cant follow your second part.
54hit + 3/3 is 6.4% hit.
Now I dont know much about you little trolls, but even if its true that +1bow skill gives 0,24% hit, how would that bring him to the needed 8,7%?

Edit: Apart from the fact that I think its not true. It was discussed some pages ago, but I forgot the outcome.

Last edited by Breakerone : 06/14/07 at 1:04 PM.
#1062SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Grimlok
Originally Posted by Inudemon View Post
I generally don't have any problems keeping my pet alive in raids, but I haven't done Al'ar, Vashj, or Kael yet, so I can't comment on those fights. However, I can comment on some of the bosses that you listed above.

Hydross - I'm fairly certain that pets are immune to Tomb, and also won't chain Tomb to nearby melee. I have never seen my pet get Water Tomb nor have I ever seen any melee die due to my pet.

Lurker - I always dps from the center (Northern) platform. What I do is put my pet on stay outside of whirl range while we're buffing before I head to my platform, and just call it back when theres ~3 sec until whirl. It also needs to be called back just after spout, as Lurker always Whirls immediately afterwards.

Void Reaver - This is indeed a very annoying fight if you don't have a shadow priest, or if your healers don't like to heal pets. I have my pet specced for max AR (180 raid buffed w/ mark) so I never pull it back, but I do have to heal often, and it usually winds up dying at around 30-40% when I'm starved for mana.
This is exactly what I do for each of these encounters. On void reaver I have always had a shadow priest (in fact I do on most other encounters) so the pet never dies. I would assume most guilds would give a hunter a shadow priest for void reaver since we are one of the few classes that can go totally all out without risking aggro from the knockback ability.

Shadow priests are just godly for hunters. Usually our 'hunter' group consists of 2-3 hunters (all BM), a shadow priest, a healer and a mage if no 3rd hunter. This gives a nice synergy going on with FI stacking multiple times and the almost endless mana means constant full dps while making the pet very unlikely to die.

With my current build and in this group setup its usually hunters in positions 1-3 on damage meters with 800-1000+ dps depending upon the encounter. On fights like Morogrim I've even managed to outdamage locks who have been using soc on the murlocs, although that is partially down to the awesome damage of scorpid poison when timed correctly :-)
#1063SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1jarlelin
A quick question: GCD is initiated and checked client-side right?

My thought is if you can stack enough passive haste effects to lower your auto shot speed to something around 1,45 seconds your steady shot would typically have a cast time of something like 0,75 seconds and should generally not intefere with your 0,5 second auto cast time.

Anyway, if your attack speed is just under 1,5 seconds you could simply spam your steady shot button and the game would automatically make sure you are guaranteed to perform one steady shot and one auto shot every 1,5 second. Enforced locally, void of latency, by your own former enemy, now become ally, the Global Cool Down.

(But ohh how boring that would be in the long run.)
#1064SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Elvandir
Not really, as over time your Steady casts and the GCD would converge, meaning you lose autoshots, the ideal speed (for Steady/Auto spam) is just slower than 1.5.
#1065SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Rokh
I'm sort of curious, it might be lost now in the pages and pages of this informative thread, but how much does your weapon speed actually affect the relative DPS you're doing with Steady/Auto spam? What's the breaking point where you'd take a slower weapon with higher base damage than a faster weapon that gets quicker rotations?

Also, has anyone tried out the new Crystalweave Cape? (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32665) Seems like it'd be better than any DPS Cloak I can find..
#1066SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Kiklion
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24259

Is better then that cape you linked. Now I may be wrong if the haste % allows you to use a higher dps weapon while not having dead time, but if the dps of the weapon is the same btween a slow and fast weapon, this cape is better.
#1067SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Osse
Dont think the loss in stats is covered by the 0.1 slower weapon you can use to be honest.
#1068SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Rokh
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24259

Is better then that cape you linked. Now I may be wrong if the haste % allows you to use a higher dps weapon while not having dead time, but if the dps of the weapon is the same btween a slow and fast weapon, this cape is better.
Yeah, we always modeled iAotH as being a 15% DPS increase when under the effect, so taking the 2.57% haste or so that the Cape gives you as 2.57% DPS it seems like it'd be quite good.
#1069SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Leica
Originally Posted by Rokh View Post
I'm sort of curious, it might be lost now in the pages and pages of this informative thread, but how much does your weapon speed actually affect the relative DPS you're doing with Steady/Auto spam? What's the breaking point where you'd take a slower weapon with higher base damage than a faster weapon that gets quicker rotations?

Also, has anyone tried out the new Crystalweave Cape? (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32665) Seems like it'd be better than any DPS Cloak I can find..
I prefer Crystalweave to any other cloak in the game right now while using the Vashj bow. I'll reevaulate after I get the Najentus gloves or the Supremus Crossbow probably.

Sorry, I don't have any in-game numbers, other than Crystalweave on Cheeky's spreadsheet showed a net gain of about 7dps with my gear.

I'll see if I can find the time to do a few parses this weekend.
#1070SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Rokh
Yeah I'm thinking Arena 2 Crossbow + Crystalweave Cape until I get my hands on Serpentspine Longbow.

But back to my other question, where's the breakpoint I'd be losing DPS using a higher damage weapon vs. a faster speed weapon, for steady/auto spam?
#1071SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by Rokh View Post
Yeah I'm thinking Arena 2 Crossbow + Crystalweave Cape until I get my hands on Serpentspine Longbow.

But back to my other question, where's the breakpoint I'd be losing DPS using a higher damage weapon vs. a faster speed weapon, for steady/auto spam?
It's going to be based heavily on your RAP. The more (relatively speaking) your Steady Shot equals or exceeds you auto shot the better a tighter rotation is going to be. Steady Shot damage factors in weapon DPS (but not Ammo or Scope) but it is primarily (like auto shot) based off of RAP.
#1072SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 topojijo
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
The funny thing about WWS is that the only way it can tell that FI was applied is if FI fades and then is reapplied. Therefore, the number of FI gains past 1 (1 being the first time FI was applied) is actually the number of times FI dropped. Of course you still won't know the uptime, because you don't know how long FI dropped for.. but hey, its something. In essence you want the lowest number of "FI gains" as possible, but thats not really true either. In one fight your pet could constantly be reapplying FI half a second after the buff dropped, causing many "FI gain" messages, but a very high uptime regardless while in the next you could get an unlucky streak for 20 seconds but ONLY have that one FI drop.
So is there anyway or any addon that I can use to monitor it besides just eyeballing?
#1073SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Breakerone
I admit I have been lazy on the part of the discussions where +skill was discussed, but is this formula still valid?

Chance to Hit
A player's chance to miss in PVE is also greatly affected by difference in mobs' defense and the player's attack rating.

If the monster's defense is 1 to 10 points greater than your weapon skill, you suffer 0.1% chance to miss per point.
If the difference is more than 10, the penalty is doubled to 0.2% per point
Increased weapon skill offsets this penalty directly - i.e. reducing the difference from 10 to 9 by equipping an item which grants 1 weapon skill will result in a 0.1% reduced chance to miss.

Note that this creates a "sweet spot" when attacking a mob 3 levels above the player (including "skull" bosses). Equipping an item that grants 5 extra weapon skill will effectively increase the player's chance to hit by a full 2%. 4 weapon skill would only grant 0.8% to hit, while 6 skill would give 2.1%.
#1074SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Ascoline
@Leica

Because of a quite unsatisfactory DPS on Hydross (bit lower than 700, but had to switch targets, misdirect and lead the raid, what distracted me somewhat), I decided to respec to BM from MM for the first time ever.

As a MM I enjoyed very much the procs from the dragon spine trophy and found that it enhanced my performance quite a bit. You seem to have tested with haste items as you prefer the Crystalweave Cape.

With Sunfury as my bow, what's your opinion on the DST. Or would the hourglass fit better to a BM spec.

One calculation would be: quick shots + trophy proc:

Autoshots: 2,9/(1,15*1,15*1,2*1,31) = 1,4 seks
Steady shots: 1,5/((1,15*1,15*1,2*1,31) = 0,72 seks

So this would mean, with a seamless stead-auto-steay rotation a maximum delay of 0,1 seks till GCD is off an the next steady is ready to cast.

Would like to know from some more experienced BM, if they still use the dragon spine trophy trinket.
#1075SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Anyeong
weapon speed the most important factor still?

I've played around with different spreadsheets and found SKYFIRE HAWK BOW to be a higher dps than even the vashj bow. I'm going to test it out today to see if this is accurate at all in practical application.

I think of it this way though, over a short fight the weapon speed matters less. But as time of the fight approaches infinity, the "lost time" due to speed outweighs the lower dps on the weapon itself. There must be some sort of turning point where this becomes true. I haven't done anything rigorous regarding this, and this is just basically a thought experiment in my head, but does anyone have any thoughts on this?

as far as the argument that haste will mess up your rotation, i think if rapid is up the speed becomes like 1.4, so you can still thread steadys. Its fine with IAotH up too. Its when they are BOTH up that i'm inclined to just autoshot and still enjoy pretty high dps, and maybe pick up 1 tick of spirit regen.
#1076SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Stefan
Originally Posted by Inudemon View Post
I generally don't have any problems keeping my pet alive in raids, but I haven't done Al'ar, Vashj, or Kael yet, so I can't comment on those fights. However, I can comment on some of the bosses that you listed above.

Hydross - I'm fairly certain that pets are immune to Tomb, and also won't chain Tomb to nearby melee. I have never seen my pet get Water Tomb nor have I ever seen any melee die due to my pet.

Lurker - I always dps from the center (Northern) platform. What I do is put my pet on stay outside of whirl range while we're buffing before I head to my platform, and just call it back when theres ~3 sec until whirl. It also needs to be called back just after spout, as Lurker always Whirls immediately afterwards.

Void Reaver - This is indeed a very annoying fight if you don't have a shadow priest, or if your healers don't like to heal pets. I have my pet specced for max AR (180 raid buffed w/ mark) so I never pull it back, but I do have to heal often, and it usually winds up dying at around 30-40% when I'm starved for mana.
I have done VR 3 times with keeping my pet in the entire time without a shadowpriest, mend pet is enough, plus he usually picks up some chain heals .

as for lurker, i have found putting the pet on stay in the water and just calling it back for spout works, also you can just send him on one of the warriors on the add phase.
#1077SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1jurgen
Originally Posted by Ascoline View Post
@Leica

Because of a quite unsatisfactory DPS on Hydross (bit lower than 700, but had to switch targets, misdirect and lead the raid, what distracted me somewhat), I decided to respec to BM from MM for the first time ever.

As a MM I enjoyed very much the procs from the dragon spine trophy and found that it enhanced my performance quite a bit. You seem to have tested with haste items as you prefer the Crystalweave Cape.

With Sunfury as my bow, what's your opinion on the DST. Or would the hourglass fit better to a BM spec.

One calculation would be: quick shots + trophy proc:

Autoshots: 2,9/(1,15*1,15*1,2*1,31) = 1,4 seks
Steady shots: 1,5/((1,15*1,15*1,2*1,31) = 0,72 seks

So this would mean, with a seamless stead-auto-steay rotation a maximum delay of 0,1 seks till GCD is off an the next steady is ready to cast.

Would like to know from some more experienced BM, if they still use the dragon spine trophy trinket.
I don't have an hourglass (though not for lack of trying!) I currently use bloodlust brooch and dspine. Frankly, the dspine proc is almost a passive buff, and in my experience haste rating is much much much more efficient way of increasing dps than straight AP is (based on relative increases to paper doll dps). On top of that, I'd take 40 AP over 32 CR any day.

I oicked up a thundering meta last week. That + dspine + quick shots, on top of rapid fire and my racial berserking upon activation leads to some pretty humorous things while raiding as BM. I'd argue that dspine is currently one of the best hunter trinkets in the game, alongside the one off alar. The only drawback is I now use a steady/auto macro because weaving steady and KC in manually got to be too tedious >< (edit: read: sloppy and inefficient).
#1078SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Glaurong
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
On top of that, I'd take 40 AP over 32 CR any day.
There is no situation where 40AP is better than 32 crit rating. An overwhelming amount of math says you are wrong here.

Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
I'd argue that dspine is currently one of the best hunter trinkets in the game, alongside the one off alar.
You are going to have to actually argue that point (rather than just say you might!). The value of haste effects differs dramatically between specs and weapon speeds. Also, last I checked, hunters here had some some math showing the Talon of Alar is mediocre and only worth picking up in the hopes it is improved at some point.

Edit to include link to the Talon thread: [hunter] Talon of Al'al theorycrafting
#1079SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by Anyeong View Post
I think of it this way though, over a short fight the weapon speed matters less. But as time of the fight approaches infinity, the "lost time" due to speed outweighs the lower dps on the weapon itself. There must be some sort of turning point where this becomes true. I haven't done anything rigorous regarding this, and this is just basically a thought experiment in my head, but does anyone have any thoughts on this?
In an infinite fight you run out of mana. Then the increased DPS of the slower bow wins. Mana regen only lets you fire a Steady Shot so often.

I've found that for all ranged weapons over the point where you are capable of threading a Steady Shot per auto shot (based on latency, reaction times, etc.) there is a "magical" RAP total where the faster bow wins. I remember showing these calculations in one of these various Hunter threads.

This does not take into account the increased mana usage, or the fact that slow bows allow 2 Specials per autoshot, every other auto shot.

Just argument point #654 why the current Hunter shot mechanics are non-ideal.

Be careful with some of what the spreadsheets spit out (and I should know). Some of them will provide you typical mana longevity too, and you have to take that into account. Higher DPS != More DPS.
#1080SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
jurgen
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
There is no situation where 40AP is better than 32 crit rating. An overwhelming amount of math says you are wrong here.



You are going to have to actually argue that point (rather than just say you might!). The value of haste effects differs dramatically between specs and weapon speeds. Also, last I checked, hunters here had some some math showing the Talon of Alar is mediocre and only worth picking up in the hopes it is improved at some point.

Edit to include link to the Talon thread: [hunter] Talon of Al'al theorycrafting
Maybe I should edit my post again to explain I was posting out of my ass on the trinket off alar? Sorry, it just looks amazing.

As for the 40 AP vs 32 crit, I'm on a laptop at a friend's house and don't have access to my saved version of cheeky's spreadsheet, but when crit scales with pets I'll begin stacking it like I currently do with AP (I use a scorpid, I don't know if you do).

I've been armorying a lot of hunters lately (BM hunters) who stack crit to what seems to be an absurd level (30% or so), based on how badly it scales with damage compared to AP (for reference I've been using Groggan's spreadsheet to determine this). I'm even willing to agree that 40 AP for most hunters is a lot worse than 32 CR. But as long as my scorpid is doing obscene damage on non-poison-immune bosses, I'm going to put AP everywhere I can.

In quibbling over 40 AP vs 32 crit, Glaurong, you ignore the thrust of my post, which was that dspine is a much better trinket than hourglass. I admitted I don't have an hourglass, but I insist you show me the math (which many people here swear by; personally I'm not a math whiz and prefer to do my own testing) where a trinket with no internal cooldown that shaves .5 seconds off my autoshot timer (i use glad's heavy xbow)-ALMOST CONSTANTLY-is not gonna outweigh a 300 AP proc with a hidden CD

edit: spelling
edit2: thank you for posting the link. From what it sounds like, I agree with you the Talon is either waiting for a fix (or a buff, as you put it), and I should have qualified my statement. I'm BM myself and would never dream of equipping it, I rarely if ever use arcane shot. I can only see it as viable (after it begins applying to autoshots, of course) for a marks or surv hunter who rely on arcane shot much more than a BM hunter does in a rotation

Last edited by jurgen : 06/15/07 at 4:08 PM.
#1081SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
I admitted I don't have an hourglass, but I insist you show me the math (which many people here swear by; personally I'm not a math whiz and prefer to do my own testing) where a trinket with no internal cooldown that shaves .5 seconds off my autoshot timer (i use glad's hevay xbow)-ALMOST CONSTANTLY-is not gonna outweigh a 300 AP proc with a hidden CD
Well, that's the trick - you use the slowest weapon in the game. For most Hunters the Dragonspine (especially if it happens with Quick Shots) is a bit too much haste. You also may have exceptional skills at timing shots. If so, congratulations fucker, I'm jealous!

Also, note there is a bug in my spreadsheet reagrding the ratio of spell damage applied to Scorpid Poison. I did not acocunt for it being ratioed 10/15 for the duration versus how DOT +damage operates. I hope to have it corrected and re-released this weekend.
#1082SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1jurgen
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Well, that's the trick - you use the slowest weapon in the game. For most Hunters the Dragonspine (especially if it happens with Quick Shots) is a bit too much haste. You also may have exceptional skills at timing shots. If so, congratulations fucker, I'm jealous!

Also, note there is a bug in my spreadsheet reagrding the ratio of spell damage applied to Scorpid Poison. I did not acocunt for it being ratioed 10/15 for the duration versus how DOT +damage operates. I hope to have it corrected and re-released this weekend.
Nah, I don't have quite that much micro, especially when you factor in thundering procs and everything else. I use a macro for steady/auto spam that does KC for me as well, like I said. As long as steady shot's cast time scales with haste rating I see no reason to ever not stack haste rating. Please, please, please if there's a reason I shouldn't do this (or my logic is flawed) tell me, because it would resolve the principal concern I have about my class in terms of dps and itemization.
#1083SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
Nah, I don't have quite that much micro, especially when you factor in thundering procs and everything else. I use a macro for steady/auto spam that does KC for me as well, like I said. As long as steady shot's cast time scales with haste rating I see no reason to ever not stack haste rating. Please, please, please if there's a reason I shouldn't do this (or my logic is flawed) it would resolve the principal concern I have about my class in terms of dps and itemization.
If you are not aware of the Global Cooldown that would be the only reason I could think of. But with a 3.1 speed weapon you would need 100% haste effects for it to become a problem. I think you could get there if you use Dragonspine, Serpent's Swiftness, Abacus of violent Odds, Quiver, Rapid Fire, and Troll Berserk.

Both Bloodlust and Heroism reduce the Global Cooldown, so those don't hurt you.
#1084SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
I use dragonspine and it procs together with improved aspect many times, never have a hard time because I'm just using castsequence anyway on my wheel, even with 2 haste effects, autos don't clip. My lateny is around 140 ms in raids. Without castsequence it'd be pretty much impossible to time those though.
#1085SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1jurgen
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
If you are not aware of the Global Cooldown that would be the only reason I could think of. But with a 3.1 speed weapon you would need 100% haste effects for it to become a problem. I think you could get there if you use Dragonspine, Serpent's Swiftness, Abacus of violent Odds, Quiver, Rapid Fire, and Troll Berserk.

Both Bloodlust and Heroism reduce the Global Cooldown, so those don't hurt you.
I've considered the global cooldown, certainly, but in my head I can't work out how it might be a problem (again, I'm terrible at math). Let me jump to the point: are you suggesting at an autoshot timer of 1-1.49, the global cooldown is costing me DPS?
#1086SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
I've considered the global cooldown, certainly, but in my head I can't work out how it might be a problem (again, I'm terrible at math). Let me jump to the point: are you suggesting at an autoshot timer of 1-1.49, the global cooldown is costing me DPS?
Yes, because your Steady Shots can only start every 1.5s. So they start drifting back along the time of your Auto Shots until they begin clipping it, at that point your auto shot is going to be 1.5 + lag seconds long.

I avoid this by doing every-other Steady Shots (Abacus, berserk, Rapid, Quick Shots).
#1087SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1jurgen
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Yes, because your Steady Shots can only start every 1.5s. So they start drifting back along the time of your Auto Shots until they begin clipping it, at that point your auto shot is going to be 1.5 + lag seconds long.

I avoid this by doing every-other Steady Shots (Abacus, berserk, Rapid, Quick Shots).
Hang on, lemme have you back up just one second. I perhaps should have been more clear. You're saying (I think) that weaving a steady between autos at the autoshot speed I specified is going to not only clip autoshots, but gimp dps to the point where just letting my autoshot cycle run without weaving steadies would do MORE damage?
#1088SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
Hang on, lemme have you back up just one second. I perhaps should have been more clear. You're saying (I think) that weaving a steady between autos at the autoshot speed I specified is going to not only clip autoshots, but gimp dps to the point where just letting my autoshot cycle run without weaving steadies would do MORE damage?
Depending on how fast your autoshots are, yes. Of course if we assume that Auto Shot and Steady Shot hit for about the same damage, you'd need to do a hell of a lot of clipping to do lower DPS than just letting more auto shots go by.

Let's say each one does 100 damage. At 1.5s speed and perfect latency/reactions you have 200 damage done every 1.5s (133 DPS). If you get your haste so that autoshot is a 1.0s, you can get 4 autos and 2 steadys in a 4 second period for 600 damage (150 DPS.) If you just kept spamming your macro you would have stayed at 133 DPS. If you let just autoshot fire you have 100 DPS only. You still have to weave, but you can't do it blindly, you have to be selective. You also use less mana doing a Steady Shot every 2 seconds than every 1.5s., haste at those levels can help you in two ways.

Now, it takes extremes to get there, but haste + cast sequence macro can cap your DPS. That's the problem everyone has been talking about with all the +haste stuff popping up. Haste is excellent for increasing mana-free Auto Shot DPS. There are limits to how much it can influence anything that relies on the global cooldown. It just so happens that our primary cast is short and frequent so the GCD dominates our rotations. (That and the hidden Auto Shot cast time.)
#1089SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Avellyr
Hang on, lemme have you back up just one second. I perhaps should have been more clear. You're saying (I think) that weaving a steady between autos at the autoshot speed I specified is going to not only clip autoshots, but gimp dps to the point where just letting my autoshot cycle run without weaving steadies would do MORE damage?
That is correct. When your GCD won't fit between your autos, or any time you have a lot of haste running, it's much better to use arcane/multi spam, unless you have godlike precision. Personally, I'm wary of getting any more haste than SS+Quick Shots. I wouldn't touch Dragonspine with a 10-foot pole.

Last edited by Avellyr : 06/15/07 at 5:17 PM.
#1090SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Glaurong
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
In quibbling over 40 AP vs 32 crit, Glaurong, you ignore the thrust of my post, which was that dspine is a much better trinket than hourglass. I admitted I don't have an hourglass, but I insist you show me the math (which many people here swear by; personally I'm not a math whiz and prefer to do my own testing) where a trinket with no internal cooldown that shaves .5 seconds off my autoshot timer (i use glad's heavy xbow)-ALMOST CONSTANTLY-is not gonna outweigh a 300 AP proc with a hidden CD
A bunch of people have jumped in and stated why the DST has limited value. /wave Cheeky

For you, it works, you have a weapon where you would be better suited throwing in 1.5 specials per auto. Unless your ping is horrendous, a steady/auto rotation with a weapon that slow is far from optimal (lots of dead time). Haste procs like IAotH and DST will take you closer to ideal speeds and provide a DPS boost (less dead time). However if you adjusted your rotation to include multis and arcanes, and substituted the DST for an hourglass your DPS would most likely improve.

Hunter mechanics are screwy and unless they change fundamentally the value of haste effects will vary greatly depending on weapon speed, spec, latency and which rotation you choose. Which is what I originally said:

Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
The value of haste effects differs dramatically between specs and weapon speeds
#1091SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Depending on how fast your autoshots are, yes. Of course if we assume that Auto Shot and Steady Shot hit for about the same damage, you'd need to do a hell of a lot of clipping to do lower DPS than just letting more auto shots go by.

Let's say each one does 100 damage. At 1.5s speed and perfect latency/reactions you have 200 damage done every 1.5s (133 DPS). If you get your haste so that autoshot is a 1.0s, you can get 4 autos and 2 steadys in a 4 second period for 600 damage (150 DPS.) If you just kept spamming your macro you would have stayed at 133 DPS. If you let just autoshot fire you have 100 DPS only. You still have to weave, but you can't do it blindly, you have to be selective. You also use less mana doing a Steady Shot every 2 seconds than every 1.5s., haste at those levels can help you in two ways.

Now, it takes extremes to get there, but haste + cast sequence macro can cap your DPS. That's the problem everyone has been talking about with all the +haste stuff popping up. Haste is excellent for increasing mana-free Auto Shot DPS. There are limits to how much it can influence anything that relies on the global cooldown. It just so happens that our primary cast is short and frequent so the GCD dominates our rotations. (That and the hidden Auto Shot cast time.)

Hang on, how do you figure that not spamming macro is more damage?

Assume I go to 1.00 speed with my autos. Since I'm using Sunfury, under that much haste, steady casts in 0.6 seconds: Here is my rotation without spamming macro

0:00 Auto
0:60 Steady
1:10 Auto
2:10 Auto
2:70 Steady
3:20 Auto
4:20 Auto

in 4:20 I shoot 5 auto and 2 steady.

Now if I spam the macro

0:00 Auto
0:60 Steady
1:10 Auto
2:10 Steady
2:60 Auto
3:60 Steady
4:10 Auto.

in 4:10 I shoot 4 auto and 3 steady, and steady does a bit more damage than auto. The only thing that will mess this up is latency. But with low enough latency, even at 1:00 auto cooldown spamming macro is more damage.
#1092SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Glaurong
There are several factors which determine if your auto or steadies hit harder:

If your weapon is faster than 2.8, auto scales worse than steady with AP, if your weapon is slower than 2.8 it scales better with AP. (on a damage per shot basis)

With a 2.8 speed weapon, 37 dps ammo will give you 104 dmg per auto shot. 43 dps ammo will give you 120 dmg per auto shot. The +150 steady bonus gives it a slight edge over ammo.

5 piece Rift or Gronn pushes steady way out ahead.

Any weapon fast enough to allow this extremely fast auto shot condition to happen won't scale as well with AP (damage per shot) as steady. This effectively gives you a floor for auto shot speeds, under which, delaying shots is preferable and additional haste is wasted.
#1093SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
There are several factors which determine if your auto or steadies hit harder:

If your weapon is faster than 2.8, auto scales worse than steady with AP, if your weapon is slower than 2.8 it scales better with AP. (on a damage per shot basis)

With a 2.8 speed weapon, 37 dps ammo will give you 104 dmg per auto shot. 43 dps ammo will give you 120 dmg per auto shot. The +150 steady bonus gives it a slight edge over ammo.

5 piece Rift or Gronn pushes steady way out ahead.

Any weapon fast enough to allow this extremely fast auto shot condition to happen won't scale as well with AP (damage per shot) as steady. This effectively gives you a floor for auto shot speeds, under which, delaying shots is preferable and additional haste is wasted.
I use sunfury and with 37 dps ammo, my steadies hit harder. Only when I get 53 dps Hyjal ammo, it'll be a bit more than steady but then I'll probably have my rift stalker bonus anyway.
#1094SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
jurgen
edit: nvm, i figured it out. Cheeky you're clever.

Last edited by jurgen : 06/15/07 at 6:29 PM.
#1095SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Harwin
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Hang on, how do you figure that not spamming macro is more damage?

Assume I go to 1.00 speed with my autos. Since I'm using Sunfury, under that much haste, steady casts in 0.6 seconds: Here is my rotation without spamming macro

0:00 Auto
0:60 Steady
1:10 Auto
2:10 Auto
2:70 Steady
3:20 Auto
4:20 Auto

in 4:20 I shoot 5 auto and 2 steady.

Now if I spam the macro

0:00 Auto
0:60 Steady
1:10 Auto
2:10 Steady
2:60 Auto
3:60 Steady
4:10 Auto.

in 4:10 I shoot 4 auto and 3 steady, and steady does a bit more damage than auto. The only thing that will mess this up is latency. But with low enough latency, even at 1:00 auto cooldown spamming macro is more damage.
Your second rotation there isn't a rotation(you won't be able to loop it because your steady won't fire until 1:00 on the second loop as listed). You do have a loop in there, it's just shorter than listed.
Chopping off the first auto-steady you get the actual loop:
1:10 Auto
2:10 Steady
2:60 Auto
3:60 Steady
4:10 Auto(end of loop, not counted as # of shots in the loop)

Shifting to 0:00
0:00 Auto
1:00 Steady
1:50 Auto
2:50 Steady
3:00 Auto(end of loop, not counted as # of shots in the loop)

So you've got a 3:00 rotation that fires 2 autos and 2 steadies, or 1.33 shots per minute.
The non-spamming ideal rotation is a 4:20 rotation that fires 5 auto and 2 steady, or 1.66 shots per minute(7/4.2)
#1096SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Sienna
Why doesn't my steady fire until 1:00? I start casting it at 0:00 and it has 0.51 seconds cast time, I added 100 ms more for latency. What's wrong with it?
#1097SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Why doesn't my steady fire until 1:00? I start casting it at 0:00 and it has 0.51 seconds cast time, I added 100 ms more for latency. What's wrong with it?
What he's saying is that by counting the auto at the beginning, and at the end you do not have a truly repeatable rotation. You need to truncate it such that you can replicate the timing exactly over a longer period of time.

It's the same thing as saying if you have a 1s auto shot speed you get:
0.00 - Auto Fires
1.00 - Auto Fires

You don't count that as 2 auto shots in 1 second, because you can't repeat that in the next second. It a common mistake people make when listing shot rotations. You must be careful that you properly loop the timing. My spreadsheet had the same bug until someone pointed it out to me and I started using the finishing shot to loop timing.
#1098SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
Sienna
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
What he's saying is that by counting the auto at the beginning, and at the end you do not have a truly repeatable rotation. You need to truncate it such that you can replicate the timing exactly over a longer period of time.

It's the same thing as saying if you have a 1s auto shot speed you get:
0.00 - Auto Fires
1.00 - Auto Fires

You don't count that as 2 auto shots in 1 second, because you can't repeat that in the next second. It a common mistake people make when listing shot rotations. You must be careful that you properly loop the timing. My spreadsheet had the same bug until someone pointed it out to me and I started using the finishing shot to loop timing.
Ah yes you are right. After I checked the repeatable rotations, the one with shooting 2 autos and 1 steady gives around 10% more dps. Good thing to notice late, thank you. Although it's not for all speeds below 1.5. For example when autoshot cooldown is 1.25, and steady cast is 0.65, auto>steady>auto>steady still gives better dps:

0:00 Auto
0:65 Steady
1:25 Auto
2:15 Steady
2:65 Auto
3:65 Steady

compared to

0:00 Auto
0:65 Steady
1:25 Auto
2:50 Auto
3:15 Steady
3:75 Auto

Last edited by Sienna : 06/16/07 at 2:19 AM.
#1099SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Motto
First of all, hello to all of you, my 1st post here

Then bumping this post a bit, since it reached page2 :P

I've been seeing some complaints around here about BM and Tempest Keep, being very pet unfriendly. Just killed Kael for the second time last night, and i'm very pleased so far. (been BM since we entered SSC i think)

Here's some shots after the kill, we use synced SWstats (20 ppl or so syncing it, so should be accurate enough). Pet died 1 time in p4, unlucky flamestrike right next to Kael and wasn't fast enough noticing it But imp ress pet ftw

Total damage:


DPS:


Gonna take some heavy revamps to make me switch to MM / Surv. Tried some blasted lands testing, same gear, BM vs MM vs Hybrid vs Surv (with some agi gear switches, but minimal) and i just couldn't outdamage myself as BM, no matter how hard i tried. Brainless class devs ftl :/
#1100SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1D4vE
BM hunter supported by Shadow Priest:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=315vph4hws5bs&m

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...5bs&s=351,1104 (without phase 1)
#1101SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Bikiniwax
I am confused about whether the Dragonspine Trophy trinket is good for BM hunters or not. I here some say that it is while others say that it is not.

Do we have a verdict?
#1102SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1lilwolfe
Ok, so I need some advice. The T4 chest token finally, finally dropped for me and I picked it up without a second thought. I get back to the bank, socket it up and flip it on. To my horror I lose almost a full 1% crit and 20 hit rating (taking me to 109). All I gain is 20 int and a measly 2 attack power. I know that the new chest doesn't have +6 all stats yet, but that's not going to cover 1% missing crit. Is there a way I could socket the new chest that would make it equal or better to the old one? I've got a screenshot comparing the two with how they are matched up now. Also, for BM spec, what am I shooting for with socketing and stuff anyway? I hear arguments both ways, some say RAP some say Crit.

#1103SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Greenpiggy
For starters, if you're BM then 8Agi is going to grant you more dps than 16AP every time, unless you have a horribly low amount of AP(And yes this includes AP scaling to pet too..)
Secondly, the socket bonus on both of those BP's is not good enough to go for, you're better of just triple socketing them both with delicate living rubies
Thirdly, Ebon Netherscale is just better, sorry :/ - breaking that setbonus is probably something you should only do when you have 2 excellent pieces to replace them with(there really isn't a good replacement for the bracers until Black Temple)
I only plan to replace mine once i have Ranger General's Chestguard and Gronn Stalker's Girdle.
#1104SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Howitzer
I've found that Delicate Living Rubies are the best choice for overall DPS boost regardless of which tree you choose.
#1105SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Mech0z
Iam trying to compile a excel document that can give an idear of which ranged weapons that have the best raiding stats for BM.

For ranged I have tried to make a form that rewards faster weapon (Havent done any autoshot cliping stuff though but 2.6 should be close to ideal with normal ping)
(((3,1-weaponspeed)/3)+1)*RDPS
This gave the following results (highest is best)
Doomwalker gun: 94,73
Merciless bow: 91,14
Sunfury bow: 88,85
But Iam not sure how I can verify if these numbers are decent

Also I made scheme for 2H weapons (Did not include int. and haste)


If you got any suggestions please tell
#1106SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1 Kaubel
Originally Posted by Motto View Post
First of all, hello to all of you, my 1st post here
Now you've gone and made me dislike you.
#1107SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1
Edited onPatch 2.1.1
lilwolfe
Yeah, I was sorta thinking that was the case. Bleeh! The Ebon set was socketed back when I was MM. I've been scouring the AH and gem friends for the agi gems but it's been dry lately. So the +8 Agi into all sockets will be better over all than any of the Crit/Attack Power ones?

Thanks for the advice. I wanted to be sure of it before making any final socketing decisions. I'll toss it into the bank for the time being.

Oh, one more thing: What constitutes 'horribly low' AP? Making the switch from MM to BM, everything seems low to me these days.

Last edited by lilwolfe : 06/18/07 at 2:22 PM.
#1108SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1The Iron Colonel
Do some quick math on the agi gems. 8 agi provides 8 AP and 0.2% crit. Wicked Noble Topaz provides 8 AP and 4/22.1=0.18% crit. 8 agi gives you more bang for the buck (albeit slightly) in addition to scaling with BoK and giving you the option of speccing SV without resocketing (assuming, of course, that the gear in question would be suitable for SV in the first place).
#1109SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Furo
I'd take everyone's advice and stick with agility gems, I got a bunch of Bright Living Rubies cheap and used them instead of Delicates, I'm wishing I hadn't done that now because I'd really like to switch to SV soon.

Also, check out Cheeky's spreadsheet. It's a big help when you are thinking about possible gear and spec changes.

Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development
#1110SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Hopefire
From what I've seen so far in TK, TK is unfriendly to pets, not impossible for pets. It takes more than just using a shot rotation and a KC macro. Some thought is actually needed. Personally, I'm liking it overall - BM detractors complain it's easymode, and when it tops charts on fights unfriendly to pets, it puts a smile on my face.
#1111SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.1Intermission
Originally Posted by Hopefire View Post
From what I've seen so far in TK, TK is unfriendly to pets, not impossible for pets. It takes more than just using a shot rotation and a KC macro. Some thought is actually needed. Personally, I'm liking it overall - BM detractors complain it's easymode, and when it tops charts on fights unfriendly to pets, it puts a smile on my face.
Well, I dont really agree. Its very easy for pets:

Void - keep him in the whole time (SP not needed with Avoidance and max AR).
Solarian - keep him attacking Solarian/priests the whole time, I've never seen a pet die to AM.
Alar - can attack in 2 out of the 4 phase 1 spots, and can attack adds between then. In phase 2, he can attack Alar or adds, whatever you are assigned to. You even get time to res pet + drink in meteor breaks if you stuff up.
Kael - just as good as any other melee in p1, great for p2, just as good as any melee in p3, and p4/5 im focusing on birds anyway, but he still keeps biting away at Kael unless he drops a Flamestrike *on* my pet and I dont notice.
#1112SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Casander
Originally Posted by Furo View Post
I'd take everyone's advice and stick with agility gems, I got a bunch of Bright Living Rubies cheap and used them instead of Delicates, I'm wishing I hadn't done that now because I'd really like to switch to SV soon.

Also, check out Cheeky's spreadsheet. It's a big help when you are thinking about possible gear and spec changes.

Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development
Is there any hardcore proof that Delicate Living Rubies are better for a Marksman spec hunter by any chance? I have socketed all of my gear with Bright Living Rubies and such, but I'm always up for increasing my damage. I know that with raid buffs, agility slowly becomes better in value due to the fact that your attack power is increased much more than your crit. I would like to know a crossover point.

I've heard that any more than 1 haste proc at a time, if any at all, is too many for a BM hunter for the most part, but for a MM hunter like myself with a 2.52 attack speed, I can handle 2-3 haste procs at once, depending on the haste effects. This allows myself to use things like DST, Rapid Fire, Quick Shots, TSD, Abacus of Violent Odds, and even passive haste rating more easily. Would it be possible to stack enough fairly consistent haste to make it so that the MM attack speed is more optimal for long enough to out-dps BM since BM can't use haste as much haste? I've tested out Dragonspine Trophy on the PTR and was overwhelmed with its proc rate. I had it proc 10 times in one minute and off of 6 consecutive shots. Combined with all of the other haste procs and buffs available to me, I just thought that it would be possible to keep my attack speed faster than regular enough of the time to do so.
#1113SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2orsraunia
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
On one fight I went down to 94 hit rating myself and didnt miss anything as well.
Recently i have made some changes to my gear, which resulted to a 93 hit rating.
I am a troll and i use a bow, so i also get some +% to hit from the extra +5 weapon skill.

After extended tests in SSC, i never miss. Not a single shot.
So, i don't think that the hit rating cap for hunters is as high as some people theoreticaly
calculate it to be. This week, i will test in TK though i don't expect results to be any different.
#1114SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sienna
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
Recently i have made some changes to my gear, which resulted to a 93 hit rating.
I am a troll and i use a bow, so i also get some +% to hit from the extra +5 weapon skill.

After extended tests in SSC, i never miss. Not a single shot.
So, i don't think that the hit rating cap for hunters is as high as some people theoreticaly
calculate it to be. This week, i will test in TK though i don't expect results to be any different.
Sorry but which addon are you using to keep track of your misses? If you went through a SSC clearing with 94 hit and never missed it's a miracle. I have 135 hit rating and I miss 4-5 times on a boss fight regularly.
#1115SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Greenpiggy
I missed Prince Malchezaar on the pull with 110Hitrating after forgetting to equip my bosskit, sticks in my mind as he ran over and owned a tree
#1116SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Breakerone
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Sorry but which addon are you using to keep track of your misses? If you went through a SSC clearing with 94 hit and never missed it's a miracle. I have 135 hit rating and I miss 4-5 times on a boss fight regularly.
I posted some formula on the other page from wowiki, but I am unsure if its still valid in BC.
If it is, it stated that the +5skill from a troll gives you 2% to hit, which I cant quite believe.
The hunter from my other post with the 54 hit rating and no misses also had 3/3 surefooted and the kazzak pants for another +16 skill +5 from being a troll, so that will get him to the cap I guess.

Why I didnt miss on that Lurker fight with only 94 hit I cant say, must have been pure luck I guess.

Oh, and another question. Could someone finally fill me in on the actual bugs of the new hunters mark or if there are any at all?
I am the only hunter in the raid with Imp hunters mark, which should have been a good thing, but the other hunters claim that because of the bug which lets you get multiple marks on one target if you time it all correct its happens that I mark first, they cant mark themselfs and do NOT get the 440 Rap from my mark. Is that true?

Last edited by Breakerone : 06/19/07 at 4:55 AM.
#1117SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Female Tauren
Heya,

I took my scorpid to Mag on Saturday and I'm quite impressed by the results:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...1022-11640&a=2

Is there anything I can do to improve my DPS?
Armory: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...rius&n=Cairina

I use a sonic spear for boss fights, dw w/ +30 int for AotV.
#1118SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Mech0z
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
Is there anything I can do to improve my DPS?
Armory: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...rius&n=Cairina

I use a sonic spear for boss fights, dw w/ +30 int for AotV.
Get 8 agi in your shoulders instead of the 4crit, 6 sta because the setbonus is really bad imo. also get dexterity (+12 agi) on your boots.

These 2 things is of course bad if you find yourself on low hp often. But if that aint happening then its better dps wise of course.
#1119SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
Heya,

I took my scorpid to Mag on Saturday and I'm quite impressed by the results:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...1022-11640&a=2

Is there anything I can do to improve my DPS?
Armory: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...rius&n=Cairina

I use a sonic spear for boss fights, dw w/ +30 int for AotV.
I'd recommend farming up or buying fel mana pots instead of using AotV. AotV is pretty much terrible in terms of limiting your dps. Sonic Spear isn't bad per se (I'm using it, still waiting on Legacy QQ), but there are better weapons for BM (Legacy) and better weapons for SV (dual wield with AGI is popular).

I notice that you left Claw on for some part of the fight - that will make your life a little harder when it comes to maintaining a stack of poison (although your average poison ticks and total poison damage doesn't seem to indicate you had this issue, it can arise when you leave claw on due to focus starvation).

You're deep BM, so you probably don't want or need to be using so much multishot and arcane shot - really I only use arcane when I'm moving and can't fire steady/auto. If you didn't use those two, you probably would be set for mana (given that for BM specs multi and arcane have poor DPM).

Other than those few things, you seem to do pretty well. 1214 DPS looks solid to me, especially because you appear to have been on cube duty - you have shadow grasp in your debuffs, which I believe is from channeling (correct me if I'm wrong).
#1120SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Mundain
This is my first post on EJ so far, and I am basicly curious about a few things as BM.

First off I am wondering if a Mag WWS parse is a decent gauge of my new scorpids DPS potential, and my DPS potential in general.
(link incase its needed: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=1554-2104&a=7)

The other thing I am looking to find out is which ranged weapon to go with. I use the steelhawk at the moment, but at this point I wonder if I should even worry about the sunfury. I am eyeing the wolf slayer rifle, is it really the best option for me as BM at the momment? According to Cheeky's sheet, it will give me more DPS than even Vashj's bow (but in that same respect, the skyfire hawk bow gives even more than wolfslayer on the sheet, so this is why I am asking in the first place).
#1121SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Elakuan
Originally Posted by Casander View Post
Is there any hardcore proof that Delicate Living Rubies are better for a Marksman spec hunter by any chance? I have socketed all of my gear with Bright Living Rubies and such, but I'm always up for increasing my damage. I know that with raid buffs, agility slowly becomes better in value due to the fact that your attack power is increased much more than your crit. I would like to know a crossover point.
I've done a lot of modelling on this but haven't yet cracked it. That said, there are certainly some things we do know:

The values of AP and Crit are symbiotic. If you "stack" one, you send the relative value of the other through the roof. This is why you don't see many hunter stacking either...stacking typically forces you into inferior itemization...for not much return considering the symbiotic effect.

Since this is an important point...consider a hunter with 2500 AP and 15% crit. For him...an extra point of crit will be a pretty big boost to his dps. It works the other way as well.

In anwer to your question...of COURSE there is a point where a 16 ap gem is better than an 8 agi gem. Its when someone has, through strange choices or strange luck managed to overstack crit at the expense of AP. Pretty easy to demonstrate that someone with 36% crit and 1600 ap (I have actually seen this) should seriously make some changes. By stacking crit...they've spiked the value of their AP.

But for the most part if you look at the gem itemization...8 agi, 16 ap, 8 crit...the fact is you get 8 agi and MORE than 4 crit rating out of an 8 agi gem. Compare it directly to the wicked noble topaz as someone did above. Its a step up. You'd really have to be over-crit-built to crossover.

Especially, as you said, since most raid buffs go into your AP, not your crit. The way i've always built my hunter is for raid scenarios. Which means to me...given the choice, crit and agi are where you put your points. I'll let hunter's mark, blessing of might and flask of relentless assault bring me back in balance any time.

But anytime someone talks about "balance" I get a little edgy. I hear a LOT of people tell hunters to shoot for a particular balance between crit and ap. "2000 ap, 20% crit" is a pretty common prescription.

I have no idea where that came from, but I've never seen the math to back up the claim that there is a known balance between the two. And the more modelling I do on it, the more clear it is that for each level of itemization the "sweet spot" changes.

The best we can do at this point that I've seen is to simply say "Well, from where you stand RIGHT NOW, this piece of gear is an upgrade." That is the heart of Cheeky's spreadsheet and my own "dps coefficients" approach on the official hunter forums. (Ela's Guide to gear and DPS 2.1 if you care). From your current snapshot, X is slightly better than Y.

Scary part is...change a few gear peices and Y might be better than X.

I consider this ap/crit balance to be the holy grail of hunter mechanics. I've failed twice to parse it down into a unified theory...but I still take chunks out of it from time to time.

Til then...we all fly in a fog, navigating through upgrades with our coefficients and our spreadsheets which point us two more steps. What kills me is that I don't know if I'm taking a step "inward" toward better itemization balance...or moving up the food chain through a clean, permanent upgrade. Without an idea of my "balance"...how could you know? The spreadsheet will give you the right answer...without telling you why.

For now...enough that we have these guides to show us the way. And the simple math that unless you've wildly skewed your gear toward crit (which you probably did WITH gems) that agi gems are going to serve you better.
#1122SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by Mundain View Post
This is my first post on EJ so far
It's generally a bad idea to advertise this, gets Kaubel's knickers in a twist. (This added for the next person who is thinking of prefacing a post with it.)

Originally Posted by Mundain View Post
The other thing I am looking to find out is which ranged weapon to go with. I use the steelhawk at the moment, but at this point I wonder if I should even worry about the sunfury. I am eyeing the wolf slayer rifle, is it really the best option for me as BM at the momment? According to Cheeky's sheet, it will give me more DPS than even Vashj's bow (but in that same respect, the skyfire hawk bow gives even more than wolfslayer on the sheet, so this is why I am asking in the first place).
Did you add in a latency value when using my spreadsheet? Are you running Hawk with Improved Aspect of the Hawk? There are other factors not controlled for in the spreadsheet for super-fast weapons.

For most purposes damage from RAP, ammo and scope completely swamp the advantage of a weapon's higher inherent DPS. And faster weapons allow you to remove dead time from your shot rotation and get more Steady Shots out. Except for extreme cases (bows faster than 2.4, 20+ DPS difference) a faster bow is always going to put out more total damage in a BM's Auto/Steady rotation. But your mana efficiency goes down as well, since more Steady Shots means more mana, and lower DPS weapons have lower damaging Steadies.

If you really want to see a insanely good weapon, check out how the Don Santos compares with a 5% proc rate. I picked one up last week because the math spoke to me. The results have been.... impressive.
#1123SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Female Tauren
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I'd recommend farming up or buying fel mana pots instead of using AotV. AotV is pretty much terrible in terms of limiting your dps. Sonic Spear isn't bad per se (I'm using it, still waiting on Legacy QQ), but there are better weapons for BM (Legacy) and better weapons for SV (dual wield with AGI is popular).

I notice that you left Claw on for some part of the fight - that will make your life a little harder when it comes to maintaining a stack of poison (although your average poison ticks and total poison damage doesn't seem to indicate you had this issue, it can arise when you leave claw on due to focus starvation).

You're deep BM, so you probably don't want or need to be using so much multishot and arcane shot - really I only use arcane when I'm moving and can't fire steady/auto. If you didn't use those two, you probably would be set for mana (given that for BM specs multi and arcane have poor DPM).

Other than those few things, you seem to do pretty well. 1214 DPS looks solid to me, especially because you appear to have been on cube duty - you have shadow grasp in your debuffs, which I believe is from channeling (correct me if I'm wrong).
Ty for the advise, TIC.

You are right about AotV. I only use it when I'm totally oom or clicking cubes(maybe not even then for pet AP?)

Strangely, I don't think I've ever had mana problems during Mag even without a SP, maybe I have too much mana/mp5?

I use claw when I'm waiting for FI to proc then I turn it off for scorpid poison.

You are probably right about Multi/Arcane, too. The thing is I HAVE to use them because I macro'd KC with them. Due to my latency macro'ing KC with steady really isn't a choice so I have to use it with instants.


Also, you might've noticed that I missed a couple of auto shots, since I only have ~7.5% chance to hit in dps gear.
The only way I can improve my hit rating is to equipe my DFT, however I dunno weither it'd be a dps increase or decrease to replace either of my current trinkets with it. (bladefist's and hourglass)

Last edited by Female Tauren : 06/19/07 at 10:21 AM. Reason: grammar
#1124SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2lilwolfe
This is from our Gruul kill the other night. The filter option wasn't working for a few days on WWS but it seems to be fine now. I was hoping you guys could help me figure out what I am doing wrong (and point out what I seem to be catching on to also.)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...yvk&s=63-525&m
#1125SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
This is from our Gruul kill the other night. The filter option wasn't working for a few days on WWS but it seems to be fine now. I was hoping you guys could help me figure out what I am doing wrong (and point out what I seem to be catching on to also.)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...yvk&s=63-525&m
Your shots just aren't hitting very hard, and you seemed to have some bad luck with critical hits on Steady Shot. Your rotation looks fine, and the only change I'd make to the pet is to train Bite, it's more focus/damage efficient than Lightning Breath is. Keep LB as a focus sink, but add bite too.

I can't access Armory from work, but with any of the Kara-level ranged weapons and gear I'd expect your Auto and Steady shots to hitting for 600+ on non-crits. Great job on maintaining a good Auto:Steady ratio. If your gear improves you'll see a nice bump in total DPS.

Here is our last Gruul Kill, and you can see my shots (Kara gear) are doing quite a bit more damage, resulting in a much higher DPS. Focus on getting more RAP, and the DPS will follow.
#1126SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
BM Tempest Keep raiding tips:

Couple of things I wanted to note here for BM hunters recently respecced or heading into TK for the first time. I think there are some things I've learned on the various bosses and on trash that might help you up your DPS by quite a bit through the avoidance of unnecessary pet deaths, etc.

Void Reaver

Be in a shadow priest group, watch your pet HOT durations and make sure its up because periodic damage will stay up there for the duration of the fight.

Al'ar

The pet can be used during all of phase 1 without too much worry except when you notice quills are about to happen. If you don't move your pet off the platform and to the middle your pet will die. If you are on add-duty you can easily use your pet but always make sure you pull him out just before the phoenix dies or your pet will lose about 1/2 its HP with max-rank avoidance. Also be weary of the flame wreaths in phase 2. I recommend keeping your pet on Al'ar while you dps the adds. Keeping the pet on Al'ar gives longer dps time than being on the adds which die quickly and require travel time to move from 1 to the other.

Astromancer

Your pet CAN and WILL get the debuff. You need to be damn sure you're always watching to see if your pet gets it so you can move away or go to the arcane soakers if you use that strategy. Pets get targeted for arcane missiles by astromancer. If this happens you're probably not going to be able to save your pet unless you've trained max rank AResist. Other than these 2 problems, BM really tears the living shit out of Astromancer.

KT Trash

KT trash can and is a pain in the ass mainly because of Centurion whirlwinds. You "can" use your pet on these guys but only if you have your finger on the passive key for your pet to pull him back when you see a spin. Also, do not use your pet on the Battle mages. If you do, you're probably going to get your pet frost shocked for 22,000 damage or so.

Kael'Thas

Phase 1:

Thaladred: Use your pet at your own risk. I've had attempts where I've used the pet on him while he ran around after people without an issue. I've had attempts where he's gibbed the pet faster than Oprah Winfrey eating a twinkie. Its a gamble.

Sanguinar: Feel free to use your pet just make sure the tank is facing the opposite direction.

Astromancer Capernian: You cannot use your pet whatsoever on this add so don't even think about it. Keep yourself at range and C'thun style spacing between other players.

Engineer Telonicus:

This fight will go similar to sanguinar assuming your tank is skilled enough to make sure the ENG doesn't bomb the people attacking from behind.

Phase 2:

You have to position yourself on the platform or off to the side right before Telonicus dies to make sure you don't get the raid multi-shotted by the bow add. Your pet should not be near you during this because you'll be tanking the bow. Put your BM pet on the Staff add and forget about him. He'll proc FI for you and do his own thing while you finish off the bow. If you're using an AOE strat for the adds then be careful on your pets health as it might get cleaved.

Phase 3:

Same rules as phase 1

Phase 4:

I have had somewhat of a difficult time with this while using my pet because Hunters seem to generally be on Pheonix duty here making sure they're kited and away from the raid. Control and precision is key here and keeping your pet on KT while you deal with the phoenix spawns can prove deadly for the pet.

Phase 5:

All out dps on KT with your pet on him just keep a HOT up if something happens. Generally speaking if you get to phase 5 the fight is pretty much won.

Anyways, I hope some of these things I've learned through trial and error help.
#1127SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Mundain
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
It's generally a bad idea to advertise this, gets Kaubel's knickers in a twist. (This added for the next person who is thinking of prefacing a post with it.)



Did you add in a latency value when using my spreadsheet? Are you running Hawk with Improved Aspect of the Hawk? There are other factors not controlled for in the spreadsheet for super-fast weapons.

For most purposes damage from RAP, ammo and scope completely swamp the advantage of a weapon's higher inherent DPS. And faster weapons allow you to remove dead time from your shot rotation and get more Steady Shots out. Except for extreme cases (bows faster than 2.4, 20+ DPS difference) a faster bow is always going to put out more total damage in a BM's Auto/Steady rotation. But your mana efficiency goes down as well, since more Steady Shots means more mana, and lower DPS weapons have lower damaging Steadies.

If you really want to see a insanely good weapon, check out how the Don Santos compares with a 5% proc rate. I picked one up last week because the math spoke to me. The results have been.... impressive.

Thanks for the info, and so fast as well lol.

Yes I checked out the different weapons with several different latency variables as mine can vary depending on if I am at school in the dorm or home on a slower connection. Going from what I see, 2.7 speed seems to be best for me without quickshots up, but 2.8 is better with quick shots up. That being said, does this mean I will lose out on DPS if I were to get the sunfury bow? (The ammount is small, < 10 DPS in the spreadsheet, however I am going to maximums here lol ).


P.S. My question about weapon choice stems from something I read saying the wolfslayer/don santos would give the most total DPS. I lost that information though and can not find it for anything.
#1128SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2lilwolfe
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Your shots just aren't hitting very hard, and you seemed to have some bad luck with critical hits on Steady Shot. Your rotation looks fine, and the only change I'd make to the pet is to train Bite, it's more focus/damage efficient than Lightning Breath is. Keep LB as a focus sink, but add bite too.

I can't access Armory from work, but with any of the Kara-level ranged weapons and gear I'd expect your Auto and Steady shots to hitting for 600+ on non-crits. Great job on maintaining a good Auto:Steady ratio. If your gear improves you'll see a nice bump in total DPS.

Here is our last Gruul Kill, and you can see my shots (Kara gear) are doing quite a bit more damage, resulting in a much higher DPS. Focus on getting more RAP, and the DPS will follow.

Meep. That's unnerving. I'm geared out in Kara + gear. I've 2 pieces T4, I wear the Ebon Netherscale set, Beastmaw Pauldrons, and still Helm of Deso. (Trying to upgrade that.) I use Legacy with Savagery enchant (Should I get the agi instead?) and am using WolfSlayer Rifle. I have everything enchanted up either with normal enchants or rep based things/kits.

I think self buffed with AotH, my RAP sits about 1750. Where should it be sitting, and how do I get it there? With Agi gems/enchants, or with Attack power gems/enchants.

Also - how much could be based on who I am grouped with? For that fight I was with 2 MM hunters, a mage and a warlock.
#1129SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Killzu
Im really interested to see if anyone has any math regarding BM spec and DST?

Its a hot topic on the forums right now and theres tons of speculation flying around, from what Ive read DST isnt very good for BM hunters due to autoshot clipping and DST just being haste overkill but if anyone could provide some solid math I would really appreciate it.
#1130SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Killzu View Post
Im really interested to see if anyone has any math regarding BM spec and DST?

Its a hot topic on the forums right now and theres tons of speculation flying around, from what Ive read DST isnt very good for BM hunters due to autoshot clipping and DST just being haste overkill but if anyone could provide some solid math I would really appreciate it.
I'm going to assume a specific weapon speed (the SFBotP - which I'd wager is the most commonly used bow) and show generally why DST is considered (by some) to be undesirable. The proc itself isn't bad in theory but in practice it can make life for BM very difficult. I won't give you specific dps numbers (I don't have them) but I will give you the speed changes and a run down of the consequences thereof.

Assuming you are using a 2.9 speed weapon (~2.9-3.0 is pretty much the upper limit on BM speeds) you'll be attacking at 2.10 speed and casting steady shot at ~1.09s. The 30.95% haste from DST brings your attack speed down to ~1.60 and steady shot cast time down to ~0.83s. If your latency and reaction time are combined to be less than 100ms (0.1s) you can maintain an auto/steady rotation without delaying auto. If you add Kill Command (assuming your reaction time is constant for both steady and KC) you now have to keep two times your reaction time plus your latency under 100ms to avoid delaying auto. Alternatively, you can skip every other steady (so auto->steady->auto rotation) to avoid delaying auto.

Now, if you also have iAotH and proc that during a DST proc, you are attacking at ~1.39 speed and casting steady at ~0.72s. You can no longer maintain a steady/auto rotation without (eventually) delaying auto. Because your attack speed is below the global CD, you are pushing the start of the cast of steady shot further and further back into the intra-autoshot window until it clips auto shot. Kill Command usage virtually goes out the window in this scenario, also. Again, you can skip every other steady, but that causes modifications of the rotation.

The problem is that generally high amounts of haste cause a lot of stress in terms of adjusting your rotation to avoid clipping; the likelihood of mistakes rises correspondingly. Furthermore, consider that I'm using what is probably the slowest weapon feasible for an auto/steady rotation; anything with a faster attack speed is going to create even more issues related to timing.

My point is this: I'm not sure (although I could probably calculate) whether or not DST could be a gain in dps. It may be possible to gain dps through modifying the rotation to appease the GCD gods while under haste. Personally (note: opinion, not fact) I don't think it's worth the hassle of having to adjust my rotation on the fly to gain marginal dps. I have neither the latency nor the reaction time to use DST without wrecking my rotation, so I don't use it. While I won't speak for others, I get the impression that this sentiment is shared - but I'll let others speak for themselves.
#1131SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Casander
Originally Posted by Elakuan View Post
I've done a lot of modelling on this but haven't yet cracked it. That said, there are certainly some things we do know:

The values of AP and Crit are symbiotic. If you "stack" one, you send the relative value of the other through the roof. This is why you don't see many hunter stacking either...stacking typically forces you into inferior itemization...for not much return considering the symbiotic effect.

Since this is an important point...consider a hunter with 2500 AP and 15% crit. For him...an extra point of crit will be a pretty big boost to his dps. It works the other way as well.

In anwer to your question...of COURSE there is a point where a 16 ap gem is better than an 8 agi gem. Its when someone has, through strange choices or strange luck managed to overstack crit at the expense of AP. Pretty easy to demonstrate that someone with 36% crit and 1600 ap (I have actually seen this) should seriously make some changes. By stacking crit...they've spiked the value of their AP.

But for the most part if you look at the gem itemization...8 agi, 16 ap, 8 crit...the fact is you get 8 agi and MORE than 4 crit rating out of an 8 agi gem. Compare it directly to the wicked noble topaz as someone did above. Its a step up. You'd really have to be over-crit-built to crossover.

Especially, as you said, since most raid buffs go into your AP, not your crit. The way i've always built my hunter is for raid scenarios. Which means to me...given the choice, crit and agi are where you put your points. I'll let hunter's mark, blessing of might and flask of relentless assault bring me back in balance any time. BTW, do you plan on updating your spreadsheet to include the mechanics (such as uptime %) for the Dragonspine Trophy, Cheeky?

But anytime someone talks about "balance" I get a little edgy. I hear a LOT of people tell hunters to shoot for a particular balance between crit and ap. "2000 ap, 20% crit" is a pretty common prescription.

I have no idea where that came from, but I've never seen the math to back up the claim that there is a known balance between the two. And the more modelling I do on it, the more clear it is that for each level of itemization the "sweet spot" changes.

The best we can do at this point that I've seen is to simply say "Well, from where you stand RIGHT NOW, this piece of gear is an upgrade." That is the heart of Cheeky's spreadsheet and my own "dps coefficients" approach on the official hunter forums. (Ela's Guide to gear and DPS 2.1 if you care). From your current snapshot, X is slightly better than Y.

Scary part is...change a few gear peices and Y might be better than X.

I consider this ap/crit balance to be the holy grail of hunter mechanics. I've failed twice to parse it down into a unified theory...but I still take chunks out of it from time to time.

Til then...we all fly in a fog, navigating through upgrades with our coefficients and our spreadsheets which point us two more steps. What kills me is that I don't know if I'm taking a step "inward" toward better itemization balance...or moving up the food chain through a clean, permanent upgrade. Without an idea of my "balance"...how could you know? The spreadsheet will give you the right answer...without telling you why.

For now...enough that we have these guides to show us the way. And the simple math that unless you've wildly skewed your gear toward crit (which you probably did WITH gems) that agi gems are going to serve you better.
Please don't babble on nonsensically. I get the gist of the post that if you stack one stat, that the other becomes greater in value. Anyhow, I've felt that I've balanced crit and AP rather well. I sit at 2,481 ap and 24.16% crit self-buffed. I thought things through and I do think that agility would be the best way to go, especially because of Blessing of Kings. Raw AP gems don't benefit from it like agility does. In the end, I can get 10-15 free agility just from re-itemizing to another equivalent stat when raid buffed.
#1132SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Meep. That's unnerving. I'm geared out in Kara + gear. I've 2 pieces T4, I wear the Ebon Netherscale set, Beastmaw Pauldrons, and still Helm of Deso. (Trying to upgrade that.) I use Legacy with Savagery enchant (Should I get the agi instead?) and am using WolfSlayer Rifle. I have everything enchanted up either with normal enchants or rep based things/kits.

I think self buffed with AotH, my RAP sits about 1750. Where should it be sitting, and how do I get it there? With Agi gems/enchants, or with Attack power gems/enchants.

Also - how much could be based on who I am grouped with? For that fight I was with 2 MM hunters, a mage and a warlock.
That sounds almost identical to my gear (Sonic Spear rather than Legacy). I was grouped with a couple of Rogues, a Survival Hunter and a Shaman dropping Grace of Air. I don't think that's going to account for 100 damage a shot. I use Don Santos, so some of my shots get the Blessing. I also sported Might, Kings, and Wisdom. I used a Major Agility pot as well.

I noticed your max hits were in the 675-700 range, which is still about 100 less. Does your tank use Sunder Armor? Do your Druids cast Fairy Fire on Gruul? I think our Warlocks even use Curse of Recklessness for early growths. I could see armor making a big difference. Your numbers should be much better for your gearing.

Hmmm, your pet damage seems too low also. Your Windseprent's melee was averaging 201, where my Scorpid (a ~15% lower damage pet) was hitting for 236. Again, armor values could account for this.
#1133SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Avellyr
Please don't babble on nonsensically. I get the gist of the post that if you stack one stat, that the other becomes greater in value. Anyhow, I've felt that I've balanced crit and AP rather well. I sit at 2,481 ap and 24.16% crit self-buffed. I thought things through and I do think that agility would be the best way to go, especially because of Blessing of Kings. Raw AP gems don't benefit from it like agility does. In the end, I can get 10-15 free agility just from re-itemizing to another equivalent stat when raid buffed.
I really don't think you get what he was trying to say. I keep my own spreadsheet that I designed myself, and when I first started raiding, 16 AP gems were far better than 8 agi gems. Sometime when I was first starting SSC, I noticed that 8 agi gems were now much better than 16 AP gems. There's a fine balance that exists, beyond just "if you stack a lot of x, y becomes better". Just following what your spreadsheet says is not always going to be a good idea. Also, "thinking things through" is not the same as crunching the numbers. Sure it's easier, and it works fine in some situations, but calling Elakaun's post "babbling nonsensically" is insulting to me as a theorycrafter.

Last edited by Avellyr : 06/19/07 at 4:10 PM.
#1134SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sienna
Did anyone test if the armor penetration gear drops in black temple effect pet attacks as well?
#1135SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kyudo
Originally Posted by Casander View Post
Please don't babble on nonsensically. I get the gist of the post that if you stack one stat, that the other becomes greater in value. Anyhow, I've felt that I've balanced crit and AP rather well. I sit at 2,481 ap and 24.16% crit self-buffed. I thought things through and I do think that agility would be the best way to go, especially because of Blessing of Kings. Raw AP gems don't benefit from it like agility does. In the end, I can get 10-15 free agility just from re-itemizing to another equivalent stat when raid buffed.
You may have "balanced ap and crit" but having only 6k hp really limits survivability. You probably do "great" damage, but at what cost?

The 5% chance to hit also limits your potential (unless you are plain lucky... but if you are lucky then maybe you avoid taking damage as well.)

I would be interested to hear how your current gear would do in a BM-spec. Adding 20% haste would really put all that RAP to work for you.

I have never tried the glass cannon build yet myself. I'm probably just paranoid.

---


As for the armor reduction gear, I imagine it is the same as "Badge of the Swarmguard" (1200ac reduction) which only effects your own attacks.
#1136SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Lodi
dumb enchant, or the dumbest enchant?

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=13948#z0z

1% haste on gloves: does this even apply to ranged? Since it's supposedly 10 haste rating now, I'd say yes.

Now, 15agi is a lot more than 1% of my overall agility. But say, half my dps comes from weapon/ammo, so it's plausible that I'd take haste if I have some slack time ... certainly fully buffed I'd think about it.
#1137SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by Lodi View Post
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=13948#z0z

1% haste on gloves: does this even apply to ranged? Since it's supposedly 10 haste rating now, I'd say yes.

Now, 15agi is a lot more than 1% of my overall agility. But say, half my dps comes from weapon/ammo, so it's plausible that I'd take haste if I have some slack time ... certainly fully buffed I'd think about it.
Believe it or not (and I didn't until I thought about it) it is becoming an amazing enchant. It scales with everything else, which the other common Glove enchants don't. Just about everyone has 1% dead time in their rotations.

If you put out 1K personal DPS (typical for some of the T5 Hunters around here), then it is about a 10 DPS upgrade. That's a lot more than you'd get from 15 Agility, and the mats are practically free.
#1138SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Female Tauren
I wonder how accurate WWS is on hunter dps during Magtheridon?
A guildy suspects that when I'm not dps'ing (cube), the pet kept dps'ing and stacked my dps scores to my totally dps, generating a number that's actually higher than my "real" dps.

any ideas?
#1139SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
0.4125% crit with kings

With 35% crit, 233% crit damage multiplier and 850 self dps that would be increase of 4.66 dps

16.5 ap with kings is how ever big increase and 16.5 ap to pet would be how ever big increase.

I'd say 1% haste is better than 15 agi before you get hands in other passive haste items as there's no ranged weapons slower than 3.0 in end game content. You'll then just hit the point where rapid fire gives close to no benefit, and no benefit if quick shots is up at the same time. :p

Talking BM pov here though, so for survival the haste stuff is pretty sweet.
#1140SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
Continuing a discussion that started in the Hunting hunters thread about scorpid poison coefficients and how people got such huge stacks.

Originally Posted by Chul View Post
The Coeff you calculated was using Rank 4 with 35 spell dmg, but I did it with with Rank 5.

Besides, you calculated I needed less spell dmg than my pet had to do a lot more dmg that it did, so something isn't right.

Lets do my Rank 4 results:

I got one tick of 109 with one stack of Rank 4. The spell does 8 dmg plus some spell dmg per tick:

(8+296xCoef)x1.25x1.2x1.05x1.5x0.94 = 109, therefore Coef = 0.139 per tick

So to check 849dmg per tick with 5 stacks using Rank 4 gives 170dmg per tick per application:

(8+SDx0.139)x2.22=170 gives 493 spell dmg.

So, can someone with Rank 4 recheck today please ? They may have just added the spell coefficient with 2.1.2 patch.
I got the same results just now:

(8 + 190x) * 1.25 * 1.2 * 1.05 * .94 = 51

(8 + 190x) * 1.4805 = 51

190x = 26.4478

x = 0.1391
#1141SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Lodi View Post
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=13948#z0z

1% haste on gloves: does this even apply to ranged? Since it's supposedly 10 haste rating now, I'd say yes.

Now, 15agi is a lot more than 1% of my overall agility. But say, half my dps comes from weapon/ammo, so it's plausible that I'd take haste if I have some slack time ... certainly fully buffed I'd think about it.
Are yout alking about Arcanum of Rapidity? It's 10 haste rating.
#1142SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cranch
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Continuing a discussion that started in the Hunting hunters thread about scorpid poison coefficients and how people got such huge stacks.



I got the same results just now:

(8 + 190x) * 1.25 * 1.2 * 1.05 * .94 = 51

(8 + 190x) * 1.4805 = 51

190x = 26.4478

x = 0.1391
I feel ignorant -- I don't see where in the above your attack power is factored in.

I just tried my scorpid on a 70 beast and the poison is ticking for a reasonable value (at rank 4), roughly what I recall it used to before 2.1.2.
#1143SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sienna
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post

KT Trash

KT trash can and is a pain in the ass mainly because of Centurion whirlwinds. You "can" use your pet on these guys but only if you have your finger on the passive key for your pet to pull him back when you see a spin. Also, do not use your pet on the Battle mages. If you do, you're probably going to get your pet frost shocked for 22,000 damage or so.

[
We keep sheepig those centurions whenever they start whirlwind, mostly pet doesn't get a single hit before sheep. Battle mages only forst shock to their primary melee aggro target, pet is never high on aggro so I always put my pet on them, nothing bad happened so far.
#1144SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Chul
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
I feel ignorant -- I don't see where in the above your attack power is factored in.

I just tried my scorpid on a 70 beast and the poison is ticking for a reasonable value (at rank 4), roughly what I recall it used to before 2.1.2.
The 190 is the spell damage bonus for the pet, which is based on his attack power.

Could you check and post what the pet spell damage was, and what SP ticked for ?

Someone posted a WWS from today on the WoW forums that had SP doing the uber damage so I'm confused if they did something for 2.1.2 or if some pets are just bugged or ..

If your pet is doing uber damage, and you've got a spare stable slot, it might help to tame another scorpion with rank 4 and check to see if that one is the same.
#1145SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cranch
Originally Posted by Chul View Post
The 190 is the spell damage bonus for the pet, which is based on his attack power.

Could you check and post what the pet spell damage was, and what SP ticked for ?

Someone posted a WWS from today on the WoW forums that had SP doing the uber damage so I'm confused if they did something for 2.1.2 or if some pets are just bugged or ..

If your pet is doing uber damage, and you've got a spare stable slot, it might help to tame another scorpion with rank 4 and check to see if that one is the same.
Ah. I have a 206 spell damage when not using any cooldowns, and it was doing around 300 stacked 5 (rounded up from memory.)
#1146SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Greenpiggy
On a different note - does anyone else equip a different weapon when under the effect of Rapid Fire?

Currently i'm using Barrel-Blade Longrifle(2.6) which is as near perfect as it gets with my latency and copes fine with Hawk Procs but is pretty horrible in clipping when it comes to rapid fire.
What i'm thinking is swapping it out to a much slower weapon for the duration of Rapid Fire(Best option for me at the moment is my Wrathtide Longbow(3.0))
Obviously this would mean equipping both a quiver and an ammo pouch, but i seem to have ample space to do that, so not a problem.

Seems a better option to me than choosing a weapon with masses of deadtime just because it won't be a liability during rapid fire.
Any thoughts?
#1147SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kabuto
I'd think the total 3s wasted on weapon swaps would negate any advantage gained during the rapid fire period.
#1148SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ishmaael
hey fellow BM hunters, and kudos.

My question today relates to trinkets, and has a few assumptions which not everyone will agree with. First off that it is possible to maintain a high dps (or higher dps) duration while under the affects of haste affects (using of course a sunfury "" phoenix, and having Iaoth) of such spells as rapid fire, or heroism, AND two such hastes combined.

I know many people state that theres clipping involved, but i've found im fairly capable of putting out 1 steady per second rotations for short bursts when chance should have it i am in such a way buffed, so id rather assume that it IS possible for my purposes in comparing items. My question specifically relates to which trinket to equip for my hunter, the choices being a dragonspine trophy, bloodlust brooch and hourglass. I am currently trying out the dragonspine / bloodlust, with fairly good results (hard to tell if my dps has improved in relation to the raid as the only boss we attempted after i equipped it was lurker, which is fairly unfriendly for hunters.)

So far it seems to proc a few times a minute, which is amazing, and i am fairly pleased with my purchase. With my current stats of (assuming brooch/dragonspine) 1815 AP 29.5% crit, would anyone consider using a different combination of the above 3 trinkets? perhaps horuglass > brooch? thanks for reading everyone.
#1149SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
I know you say you don't see a GCD conflict, but the point remains it is there. Once your autoshot's become faster then 1.5 seconds you simply cannot either fit one Steady inbetween all of them or you will clip. The only exception to this is Heroism wich lowers the GCD as well.

With RF, IaotH, serpents swiftness, and quiver your autoshot timer is 1.3 seconds using the sunfury bow, with all of them at once you will clip. Should dragonspine proc during this then you will simply clip more gaining less or no damage from its proc compared to a non-BM hunter or other class.

If you are not BM then using IaotH, RF, a quiver and the trinket proccing will cause your autoshots to be at ~1.2 seconds causing clipping. PLEASE tell me how you think you can fit a steady shot in during a 1.2 second autoshot and then even if you can due to it being affected by haste how do you fit one in the next autoshot window when the first .3 seconds of the autoshot firing you are waiting on GCD.
#1150SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bhoris
On the gem debate, I was using the old numbers from the big Hunter AEP post, which worked great for me as marks. Agi > AP > Crit. That was simple enough and I found the numbers to be pretty reliable.

Now however, as BM, there are many more factors to weigh than before. I still stick with 8 agi gems for balance, but there are great benefits from AP now, even as BM. Besides shots, you have to consider your pet. The only stat that scales a pet's dmg from your gear is AP. Agi, crit, hit, all don't scale on your pet. In addition to increasing your pet's AP, your personal AP also increases your pet's spell dmg. For fights that allow your pet to stay on the boss or whatever you're killing for a significant amount of time, the scorpid is obviously your best bet (given that the mob isn't immune to nature). Again, your AP has more of an impact than it would seem. I'm at 1942 AP self buffed, and fully buffed, consumed, and AP trinkets, my scorpid rank 4 poison usually ticks on a boss for ~630.

So again, I still think 8 agi is the best for just pure balance, but there are definitely more benefits from AP in BM than I first thought there were.
#1151SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
From my memory, the 20% more damage talent from BM doesn't effect scorpid poison, so all BM does to maybe make AP better is...

20% more white damage modified from ap
56% attack speed haste on white damage. (assuming perma. frenzy)
30% more damage while under the effects of BW

The first two don't really throw anything torwards AP imo. According to hunter wiki pets get 22% of your RAP as AP. So 8 ap (wich is the diff. between 8 agi and 16 ap) is another 1.76 AP.

The difference between 8 agi and 16 ap is 1.76 more ap for your pet. Now apply that to a MM hunter and its only 1.76 ap, apply it to a BM hunter and I BELIEVE we can say it is 3.29 AP in regards to white damage alone. Is another .1 dps for your pet worth the difference in 8 agi vs 16 ap for yourself? Note that # is lower due to glancing blows on bosses, and higher due to scorpid poison (the only special that scales well.)

See AP affects BM and MM and Surv pets specials much the same. All BM picks up due to being BM spec is that 1.76 ap benefit for the pet is how it functions with BW to affect scorpid poison.
#1152SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Believe it or not (and I didn't until I thought about it) it is becoming an amazing enchant. It scales with everything else, which the other common Glove enchants don't. Just about everyone has 1% dead time in their rotations.
I disagree. With a 2.9 speed bow and BM spec, my normal attack speed is 2.10. When IAotH is up, that drops to 1.82, giving me .32 seconds of leeway to cast Kill Command and Steady Shot through latency and reaction time. Usually, that is not enough time and I delay autos slightly. So I really only get the 1% when IAotH, Rapid Fire, or haste trinkets (in my case Abacus) are inactive.

Following your example of 1K DPS, 15 AGI would give:
- 15/14 DPS, for the AP
- .375% * 1K, for crit
- A miniscule boost to pet dps from AP and extra GFTT (let's say 0.3 DPS)

So on the low end, this is about 5 DPS. Releastically it would be more since there are a lot of small factors I didn't consider. With 15 AGI giving 5 DPS, for the haste enchant to be effective I need less than 50% uptime for all my other haste effects.
#1153SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
I disagree. With a 2.9 speed bow and BM spec, my normal attack speed is 2.10. When IAotH is up, that drops to 1.82, giving me .32 seconds of leeway to cast Kill Command and Steady Shot through latency and reaction time. Usually, that is not enough time and I delay autos slightly. So I really only get the 1% when IAotH, Rapid Fire, or haste trinkets (in my case Abacus) are inactive.

Following your example of 1K DPS, 15 AGI would give:
- 15/14 DPS, for the AP
- .375% * 1K, for crit
- A miniscule boost to pet dps from AP and extra GFTT (let's say 0.3 DPS)

So on the low end, this is about 5 DPS. Releastically it would be more since there are a lot of small factors I didn't consider. With 15 AGI giving 5 DPS, for the haste enchant to be effective I need less than 50% uptime for all my other haste effects.
I guess it does depend on how much you can take advantage of the extra haste. My assumption of 1% dead time seems to be wrong for you when you have other haste effects active.

For me with a Don Santos (2.7s) and Serpent's Swiftness I'm not having any difficulty in threading Steadies with just Quick Shots, but I drop them altogether during Rapid Fire and other haste effects. (Use GCD for instants instead, every other auto.) I'm pretty sure I can take advantage of 1% more haste in either situation.

I should be making less sweeping generalizations of other Hunters.
#1154SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
For me with a Don Santos (2.7s) and Serpent's Swiftness I'm not having any difficulty in threading Steadies with just Quick Shots
With Quick shots active you'd have a 1.70 speed, giving you .2s leeway to thread, which to me seems really tight. What's your latency and what macro are you using to get KC and Steady in so quickly?
#1155SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Be like me: simply don't use iAotH. The haste proc just gave me too many headaches, so I picked up points in pet stam. Sure, I might have slightly lower dps, but my rotations are nice and clean and I don't have headaches after long fights anymore. In my case, 1% haste might not be bad. 2.10/1.01~2.08. Not great, but meh. I'd still take 15 AGI over 2 hundreths of a second off my deadtime. If it were 3-5% (2.04 to 2 speed after haste) I'd seriously consider it, though.
#1156SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Be like me: simply don't use iAotH ... Sure, I might have slightly lower dps, but my rotations are nice and clean and I don't have headaches after long fights anymore.
My rotation is the same regardless of whether Quick Shots is up or not: Steady + KC, over and over. Quick Shots just changes the timing of the rotation to be faster. For me, wiping due to poor DPS causes more headaches than having to adjust the timing of my shot rotation.

Although haste is rather borked for hunters, we still need to take as much advantage as the game mechanics will allow.
#1157SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
With Quick shots active you'd have a 1.70 speed, giving you .2s leeway to thread, which to me seems really tight. What's your latency and what macro are you using to get KC and Steady in so quickly?
I run about ~100 ms latency, but I don't use a macro. I also tend to not spam KC a whole lot, since it is inferior DPM for me to Steady Shot. By anticipating lag and starting my Steady a little early I can get by without much clipping at all. I'm sure some is there, but not enough for me to notice it in overall damage totals and DPS.

Clipping an autoshot here or there isn't going to make a significant difference. You may not be able to take advantage of 100% of your haste effects, but even as BM with a 2.7s weapon I can only expect Quick Shots to be up ~41% of the time.

I understand what you are saying about the 1% haste getting drowned out by real life inefficiencies in a Hunter's shot rotation. Theoretically it looks great, but it may be a different story in the real game.
#1158SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I also tend to not spam KC a whole lot, since it is inferior DPM for me to Steady Shot.
That definitely has an impact on shot rotation, and probably could be the difference between haste being worthwhile and not.

Either, I'd like to give a friendly recommendation for KC spam. I think even if you have to feign/drink to make up for the reduced DPM, your DPS even over the course of a long fight will be higher (as well as raid DPS due to more chances at FI).
#1159SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Estala
It is generally considered that stopping drinking mid combat when you could otherwise be DPSing is a poor choice. Especially as a BM hunter you should be able to switch to viper and just run steady/auto rotation (do this proactively so you're not actually out of mana) until your pot timer comes back up and you can begin spending mana more liberally.
#1160SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Osse
Forgot to post the Lurker where I do over 900 dps.

http://www.chillend.nl/epeen/Lurker20.06/

Here's 1041 dp instead of crappy 900. :p

These new skins for off tier items are hot btw.


Last edited by Osse : 06/20/07 at 4:30 PM.
#1161SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Reipin Pillage
I'm using a Vashj bow, and I bought the crystalhide cape off the AH last night but didn't equip it yet.

Using Cheeky's spreadsheet it gives me almost a 10DPS boost OVER vengeance wrap. Not bad for a 2.57 perma haste item.
#1162SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
Could you do a WWS of you dpsing one of the Blasted Land servants for 10 mins with and without Vengeance wrap please? :/

Just get a paladin to help you with JoW and you wont need pots if you just use steady+auto.
#1163SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2svengarlic
Osse is that a hellforged halberd on your back? I thought I was the only one still using that thing. I have never even seen a sonic spear drop and sharded 2 legacies back before they were good.
#1164SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Could you do a WWS of you dpsing one of the Blasted Land servants for 10 mins with and without Vengeance wrap please? :/

Just get a paladin to help you with JoW and you wont need pots if you just use steady+auto.
Even at 10 minutes you have issues with smaple size at it applies to trinket & talent procs, critical hits, etc. WWS is a neat tool, but I don't think it's strength lies in direct item comparisons.
#1165SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Relm
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
On the gem debate, I was using the old numbers from the big Hunter AEP post, which worked great for me as marks. Agi > AP > Crit. That was simple enough and I found the numbers to be pretty reliable.

Now however, as BM, there are many more factors to weigh than before. I still stick with 8 agi gems for balance, but there are great benefits from AP now, even as BM. Besides shots, you have to consider your pet. The only stat that scales a pet's dmg from your gear is AP. Agi, crit, hit, all don't scale on your pet. In addition to increasing your pet's AP, your personal AP also increases your pet's spell dmg. For fights that allow your pet to stay on the boss or whatever you're killing for a significant amount of time, the scorpid is obviously your best bet (given that the mob isn't immune to nature). Again, your AP has more of an impact than it would seem. I'm at 1942 AP self buffed, and fully buffed, consumed, and AP trinkets, my scorpid rank 4 poison usually ticks on a boss for ~630.

So again, I still think 8 agi is the best for just pure balance, but there are definitely more benefits from AP in BM than I first thought there were.
I thought the same thing until I used Cheeky's spreadsheet. AGI as wierd as it is, is better then attack for a BM. The crit you get from the agi helps out on the GftT talent. Test it out and you will see.
#1166SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
That is indeed the whale spear I'm using as it's better than sonic spear.

Legacy never drops, ever.

And Cheeky:

Aye, it's not SO accurate but if you do exactly the same thing without on proc trinkets and after 10 mins you should have same average crit rate.
#1167SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
KlaDie
Hello,

my first post here and thx for any reply.

I'm hasitating in changing to BM from MM. And, reading all the 47 Sites from here will be taking a loooong long time. But, what I read is that going over to BM can (or WILL?) push your dps.
I know, you cant definitely say: "Your dps will raise to 5, 10 oder 20% more dmg. I know, it isnt that easy. But are there any Experiences from other how much the dmg can raise?

At the moment were in SSC and TK. I try to set up my gear as a mix of RAP and Crit (http://armory.wow-europe.com/#charac...&n=Klausdieter) and going quite fine with the damage. (In a Raid it should be buffed about 31% crit and 3000rap. Alliance = No Shami in the group^^) I have no screens but I watches my SWStats DPS including my pet during todays Gruul fight. At the middle of the fight (no Shadow, no Shami in Group but Druid) i raised up to 1050 dps. After my Pet died and some shatters it ends with 850 dps. So, i think 950 is realistic, breaking the 1000 is hard but on a good day maybe possible.

So, pls. give me the reasons to switch to BM. I really like going over to BM but still hasitating if it will bring that effect I hope. Some questions at the end:

What about fights like "Lurker"? It will be hard to use my pet there, isnt it?

What about the rotation? Just firing Auto / Steady because the Speed-Boost will hardly allow the Multi / Arcane shots?

Any Tipps about the Gear? (Except: 8agi Vs. 16ap Gems)

What about the mana as a BM? At the moment there is no way for me not to drink Millions of Mana-Pots. I would rather like to drink Haste-Pots :-/

Oh,wrote to much I think - Sorry.

But, thx for any Reply and all the best to you.

KlaDie

Last edited by KlaDie : 06/20/07 at 7:09 PM.
#1168SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Ishmaael
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
I know you say you don't see a GCD conflict, but the point remains it is there. Once your autoshot's become faster then 1.5 seconds you simply cannot either fit one Steady inbetween all of them or you will clip. The only exception to this is Heroism wich lowers the GCD as well.
yeah it seems strange that people seem to think a latency of 500+ (which is the norm for me as an aussie and with retarded ISP) can match exactly the numbers of Californian t3 hunters with practically no ping and similar gear. I honestly think that it has no direct influence on hunter dps assuming you can manage to preemptively time your shots.

ill continue watching the dmg meters and recap to see if its helping dmg overall. it seems to proc enough that even if its useless while a RF or heroism is up, its still going to proc once per minute or so WITHOUT other hastes up and as such give me its full benefit. still undecided, but i always felt, even back when i was a 2.5k / 20% crit MM hunter that hourglass didn't proc enough, i guess its mainly that 32 crit rating i miss.

Last edited by Ishmaael : 06/20/07 at 10:30 PM.
#1169SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
My rotation is the same regardless of whether Quick Shots is up or not: Steady + KC, over and over. Quick Shots just changes the timing of the rotation to be faster. For me, wiping due to poor DPS causes more headaches than having to adjust the timing of my shot rotation.

Although haste is rather borked for hunters, we still need to take as much advantage as the game mechanics will allow.
I see your point, but I think we're discussing different things. While the sequence of shots doesn't change (at least in so far as not changing until attack speed<GCD) the timing of the shots changes. I tend to get into a rhythm of shots - haste procs throw me off and consequently I start dropping shots. I realize this is a personal issue and playstyle thing, but I thought I would mention that I don't use iAotH and can still maintain high dps (not as high as some of the WWS parses I've seen here, but still respectable). It's a viable option, if anyone else has the same issues with haste.
#1170SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Casander
Originally Posted by Kyudo View Post
You may have "balanced ap and crit" but having only 6k hp really limits survivability. You probably do "great" damage, but at what cost?

The 5% chance to hit also limits your potential (unless you are plain lucky... but if you are lucky then maybe you avoid taking damage as well.)

I would be interested to hear how your current gear would do in a BM-spec. Adding 20% haste would really put all that RAP to work for you.

I have never tried the glass cannon build yet myself. I'm probably just paranoid.

---


As for the armor reduction gear, I imagine it is the same as "Badge of the Swarmguard" (1200ac reduction) which only effects your own attacks.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=6ofc6wfmrirqk&m

That was our first night in Magtheridon's Lair ever, using my current Marksman spec (if you look at my armory to see the exact spec). Our best Mag attempt (being it our first night), I pulled off 1,113 DPS on attmempt #9 with minimal effort. If it is true that BM is a lot higher of a DPS spec, then switching from MM to BM should put my DPS closer to 1,300 or higher on such fights. Like I said, I'm always up for increasing my damage. I also usually push out 1-1.2k DPS on Gruul rather easily, though I don't have the last WWS for that available atm. I really wish my GM would place me with a shadow priest once in a while, because if you notice, I chug pots frequently.

As for my glass cannon self, that will all very soon be changed because I've gotten to the point where any current DPS upgrade will also have stam due to its epic quality. Same for my mana and +hit for that matter - many, if not all of the upgrades I am currently looking at in the near future are mail, not leather, therefore will contain a large chunk of Intellect as well as several items containing +hit. And yes, I am very lucky when it comes to not missing. I usually notice about a .5% - 1% chance to miss on average in a raid situation according to mods and addon readings. I have that +94 hit ratins specifically mentioned in this thread and it has been working out fairly well.

To the other who responded to my post: I used to number crunch a lot, and I still do if it is necessary, but I have gotten to the point where eyeballing stat changes (after typing in the stats on my own personal spreadsheet to see the gains and losses after adjustments from talents) is enough to see if it is really a DPS upgrade. No gear that I have gotten recently has really been even remotely questionable as to whether or not it would be a DPS upgrade. Take for example, -4 ap vs. .81% crit, etc. So I didn't really do the math for agility for a long time other than its initial comparison to AP when I hit lvl 70, but it does look to be better than it did before. The last comparison was at around 1900 ap and about 19% crit. The AP looked marginally better, so I went with it. I will have to try out the +8 agility gems to see how my DPS changes since my gear has improved so drastically.
#1171SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
I've survived pre nerfed Gruul with 5300 unbuffed hp so all the speaks about glasscannons are just crap. :p

It does help to have more health, but it's really not necessary to have over 6.5k unbuffed hp to survive just about any hit if you're not counting boss melee hits.
#1172SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Avessa
Osse,

I'm sure you've said it before, but I can't seem to find the post... but I was wondering, where do you stand and what do you do on Lurker to do so well? I've tried a bunch of different stuff but I always seem to have one issue or another with my pet here(though it doesn't die to spout) and I've resorted to keeping it with me on an outer platform so I can at least use TBW.
#1173SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Faerlun
Are there any other elements that contribute to scorpid poison damage other than beast mastery stuff and trinkets? I am trying to figure out why sometimes my poison stacks up to about 400 and other times up to about 900.

Last edited by Faerlun : 06/20/07 at 11:06 PM.
#1174SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Casander
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I've survived pre nerfed Gruul with 5300 unbuffed hp so all the speaks about glasscannons are just crap. :p

It does help to have more health, but it's really not necessary to have over 6.5k unbuffed hp to survive just about any hit if you're not counting boss melee hits.
Yes, I agree. If you have enough HP to survive AoE and random target damage, then you're fine, but having more HP is always a bonus. I'll have my arena shoulders by next tueday anyway, so I will be reaching the minimum health that you recommend. Even in 5v5 arena, I still wear DPS gear because honestly, who goes for a hunter first in arena when there's a pally, 2 mages, and an enhancement shammy up in your face? No one expects me to put out large numbers as a hunter, so they go for me last. That's their mistake. I, however, don't particularly enjoy my small mana pool, so I'm attempting to increase it to 6.5k - 7k as well.

Btw, what are your thoughts on the TSD for a marksman hunter? I have tried it once, but its proc rate was not that great and when it did proc, it would proc off an auto shot and I wouldn't even receive the haste benefit until 2.52 seconds later, essentially giving me 3.48 seconds of haste. It is also not as good as Relentless Earthstorm Diamond in terms of burst damage possibly even sustained.
#1175SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
Avessa, I just let it attack all the time while I stand at the edge of inner platform. 2 set t5 bonus and mend pet keeps the pet alive, shadowpriest is a nice bonus.

Just make sure you send your pet on the ambushers when Lurker is submerged, both of them.

And of course the last one but by the time you should have killed those ranged nagas on those little platform.
#1176SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Chul
Originally Posted by Faerlun View Post
Are there any other elements that contribute to scorpid poison damage other than beast mastery stuff and trinkets? I am trying to figure out why sometimes my poison stacks up to about 400 and other times up to about 900.
Have you done 900 damage a tick since the 2.1.2 patch ?
#1177SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Faerlun
948 was my highest tick in SSC tonight, on the priest trash mobs around lurker.
#1178SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2panny
Originally Posted by Faerlun View Post
Are there any other elements that contribute to scorpid poison damage other than beast mastery stuff and trinkets? I am trying to figure out why sometimes my poison stacks up to about 400 and other times up to about 900.
Just off hand, Stormstrike debuff is +20% nature damange while it's up, Misery is +5%.
#1179SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Chul
948dmg per tick is incredible.

I assume debuffs like Misery and Stormstrike increase the damage but I doubt that would explain that kind of damage. Even if you had 2500 raid buffed RAP, with FI, Misery, Stormstrike and popped BW with two 200AP trinkets, that would still only give at most 800dmg per tick based on what we know about SP. There must be something else effecting it that we haven't figured out yet.

Perhaps stormstrike is bugging it somehow, where it is applying the +20% per stack giving 100% dmg for 5 stacks or something similar ?

May I ask a few questions?

1. What scorpid do you have ? And can you check your pets base spell dmg (i.e. in normal buffs/gear) since some scorpids may be "caster" pets and have more spell dmg.

2. Do you get some nice ticks of SP outside a raid, say when soloing but using the same methods ?

Also, if we could get a hold of the combat log of your raid last night, or at least a section of it leading up to a 948dmg tick, that might shed some light on the buffs/debuffs that may be effecting it.

At the moment I am at a loss to explain what is happening.

EDIT: I wonder if debuffs that increase magic damage has a two fold effect: The first is to increase the base damage of SP, which all stack ticks are based on, then when they actually tick, they then get increased by the debuffs again. i.e. If SP would normally do 100 per tick, when it is first applied it uses say Misery (+5%) and Stormstrike (+20%) to get 126 base dmg tick. When it ticks again, it does 158 (126*1.05*1.2) for each stack on the mob.

Last edited by Chul : 06/21/07 at 3:16 AM.
#1180SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
senior toasted bread
I don't think thats too far out there, with just a WoA (spell damage) totem droped when i first put the stack on i got 750 ticks on lurker, no misery or stormstrike. If those were there there i could have ticked for (750*1.25) 938, which is pretty close to his tick.

Edit-For reference i use rank 4 poison with 1835 ap self buffed.

Last edited by senior toasted bread : 06/21/07 at 3:30 AM.
#1181SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Chul
Originally Posted by senior toasted bread View Post
I don't think thats too far out there, with just a WoA (spell damage) totem droped when i first put the stack on i got 750 ticks on lurker, no misery or stormstrike. If those were there there i could have ticked for (750*1.25) 938, which is pretty close to his tick.

Edit-For reference i use rank 4 poison with 1835 ap self buffed.

What I mean is, I am at a loss to explain how that happens.

The formula per tick seems to be (after testing and confirmed on one other here):

(8 + Spell Dmg*0.139) * Multiplier * # of Stacks, where Multiplier is usually 1.25*1.2*1.5*0.94 or 2.12.

So in your example:

(8 + (Spell Dmg+101)*0.139) * 2.12 * 5 = 750, means the pet had ~380 base spell damage (not including the totem), or 3000RAP.

I doubt that was the case, and I doubt all hunters doing massive damage had a WoA totem. So, something else is effecting the damage done that I haven't included. But what ?
#1182SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
I dont remember this being answered while I try to read every single post.

1. Does windfury give additional melee hits for your pet?
2. Does your pet get scaled AP from your 440 RAP received from the hunters mark?
3. Is it true that hunter 1 does not get any additional RAP if hunter 2 with imp HM starts to stack RAP on his HM?
#1183SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Redpath
Pets do not gain anything from Windfury Totem. It's a buff on your weapon and pets, like druids in cat or bear form, are not considered to be wielding anything.
#1184SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Jide
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I dont remember this being answered while I try to read every single post.

1. Does windfury give additional melee hits for your pet?
2. Does your pet get scaled AP from your 440 RAP received from the hunters mark?
3. Is it true that hunter 1 does not get any additional RAP if hunter 2 with imp HM starts to stack RAP on his HM?
1. As with ferals, who in forms don't really have weapons for windfury to apply to, they don't benefit from windfury
2. Good question but I don't think so as you don't get 440 more rap to your stats, your attacks just cause more damage (worth 440 more rap) to the target afflicted with the mark
3. Are you asking if imp HM is bugged? I haven't noticed any discrepancies that would be caused by this (I don't have imp HM, but some hunters in the guild do and my damage compared to theirs hasn't gone down after 2.1)
#1185SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Could you do a WWS of you dpsing one of the Blasted Land servants for 10 mins with and without Vengeance wrap please? :/

Just get a paladin to help you with JoW and you wont need pots if you just use steady+auto.
I can probably do this tomorrow night.
#1186SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I dont remember this being answered while I try to read every single post.

1. Does windfury give additional melee hits for your pet?
2. Does your pet get scaled AP from your 440 RAP received from the hunters mark?
3. Is it true that hunter 1 does not get any additional RAP if hunter 2 with imp HM starts to stack RAP on his HM?
1. No. Pets have no weapons for the buff to apply to.
2. No. Pet AP is scaled from your character's AP, not including external buffs.
3. Uncertain. Haven't heard anything regarding this. Guessing no.
#1187SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Lysander1
Is there any way for Quartz casting timers to display the latency bar for the Swing (i.e. Autoshot bar)? I play regularly with 500 ms ping, and I'm starting to realize that self-timing my shots may be my only real option (so that I can account for latency on the autoshot timer). The macro delays things up pretty bad.
#1188SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Maa
Hi guys!
I just dinged exalted with the Ashtongue Deathsworn and bought the Hunter class trinket (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32487 ). I’d like to ask you to give me some feedback, what do you think which is better for a BM raiding hunter Bloodlust Brooch from badges or the above mentioned class trinket.

Here are my findings/thoughts:
I’m using scorpid pet. I find the badge trinket really nice since you control yourself when you want to get the buff, so you get out the max from your scorpid poison, also the flat amount of 70ap is nice too.

Here is some theory crafting I made, I’m not that good in this, so pointing out mistakes would be much appreciated.

I tried to calculate the average AP boost you get in a 10min fight:
Badge trinket=(600*70+(20*278)*(600/120))/600=116,33
Explanation:
600*70 is that you get the 70 ap since it’s an equip bonus, so you get it every sec.
20*278 is the boost you get while the trinket is active (20 sec is the duration of the buff)(278 is the ap boost) you multiply this by the amount you can use the trinket which is 5 since the trinket has 2 min CD.
Now you add this two together and divide by 10 min and the result is 116,33

Class trinket=((600/1,5)*0,15*8*275)/600
Explanation:
600/1,5 Since I’m using a flat steady auto rotation, this determines the amount of steady shots used during the 10min. Now you multiply this by 0,15 since the trinket has 15% chance to proc, so you get how many times does the trinket procs during 10min. Now you sum this all up by 8*275 which comes from the 8 sec duration of the 275 ap boost proc. Then you divide all this with 10 min and the result is 220

Problem that pops in my mind is that the class trinket can proc again while the 8 sec proc is still active this way loosing from its effectiveness. Also the above mentioned problem concerns me that, you have no way of controlling the class trinket when you want to turn on autocast on scorpid poison. So if you are unlucky you might be just standing there shooting steady shots and waiting for a proc for a minute or so and loosing DPS since your pet is “only” using claw. The last but not least of my concern is that when you use the badge trinket you get 70+278=348 ap boost where else the class trinket only gives 275 ap.

So the big question is: Do you think the average 103,66 ap boost of the class trinket compared to the badge trinket worth its unreliability?
#1189SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
I calculate the same average AP for Bloodlust Brooch, but the way you did it is a little funky. For future reference, it would be easier to simply do
Static AP + Duration of Buff * Buff AP / Cooldown Time = average AP
You'll get the same answer, but it's much easier to do (and read).

For the class trinket, you first need to calculate uptime of the buff. It's convention to do this as converse probability, or
1 - Chance To Not Proc ^ Number of Chances to Proc = % up time
1 - 0.85^floor(8/2.1)=38.59%
I assumed using SFBotP, but you can swap in a different attack speed for the 2.1 in my equation. Since you're waiting for an auto to fire before each steady, the auto timer is the limiting number on how many steadies you can fire in the duration of buff - it's more than likely going to be either 3 or 4 (or 5-6, if you're heavily hasted). If you fire 4 steadies, the uptime is ~47.8%. Assuming the proc has no internal cooldown (big assumption) you should be able to multiply the uptime times to the AP to get an average AP, because the ratio of time under effect for an arbitrarily long time block should equal the % uptime (for reference, for bloodlust brooch we calculated uptime as duration of buff / cooldown of buff = 20/120). If you fire 3 steadies, it's 106.1 average AP; 4 steadies is 131.4 average AP.

The class trinket doesn't seem bad, but it definitely favors higher rates of fire (duh). It's relative worth is probably going to be a function of your weapon speed, consequently.
#1190SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Maa
I was using the class trinket on some trash yesterday, and as I mentioned it can proc while the proc is still active, so your assumption of no internal cooldown is right.

I'm using Serpent Spine Longbow (3,0 speed) so I guess I have to switch 2.1 to 2.2 which results in 44,62% of uptime, right?
Sorry I'm not that big of a theory crafter could please clear this out for me, how did you gat that 47.8%?
#1191SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Yippy
Originally Posted by Maa View Post
I was using the class trinket on some trash yesterday, and as I mentioned it can proc while the proc is still active, so your assumption of no internal cooldown is right.

I'm using Serpent Spine Longbow (3,0 speed) so I guess I have to switch 2.1 to 2.2 which results in 44,62% of uptime, right?
Sorry I'm not that big of a theory crafter could please clear this out for me, how did you gat that 47.8%?
1-0.52200625, where 0.52200625 is 0.85^4, as 4 is the amount of steady shots that is fired in during the period of the buff (8 seconds). He has opted to calculate steady shots as an integer value rather than averaging it out over a period of time as you seem to have done

Last edited by Yippy : 06/21/07 at 10:39 AM. Reason: Clarification
#1192SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
No problem. What I'm doing in that math is calculating the likelihood of not getting a proc during the duration of the buff. Since I can ONLY get EITHER 0 procs or not 0 procs (anything more than zero refreshes the buff), I know that 1 - chance to not proc gives me the percentage of the time that the buff refreshes itself (the uptime). The chance of independent events is the product of their probabilities - so I'm taking 0.85 (the probably of proccing is 15%, so 1-0.15=0.85) to the power of the number of shots you fire. I figure you'll fire probably 3 or 4 steady shots during an 8 second duration (or, as I said, during heavy haste possibly 5 or 6, but to fire 6 you'd need godlike timing and heroism or bloodlust to lower the GCD).

Essentially, what it boils down to is that the more steady shots you fire in an 8 second window, the higher uptime the buff will have. This makes sense, really: more chances to proc should mean more procs (and consequently higher uptime). In order to get 4 steadies off in 8 seconds, you could do steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto and get away with using a slow weapon, but given that you're gaining the buff after a steady lands, the first shot in the duration rotation is probably an auto, so it's more like auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-auto-steady. You probably need to fit 4 autos into 8 minus the cast time of the last steady.

We can figure out a rough speed that you can do this algebraically. I'm going to assume 1.38 haste (that's a quiver and 5/5 SS).
4*Speed/(haste)+1.5/(haste)=8
4*Speed/1.38+1.5/1.38=8
Speed=2.385
That's unrealistically fast (remember, that's base weapon speed). Given that, I'd say you're far and away more likely to fit 3 steadies into 8 seconds, which takes a weapon speed of 3.18 (using the same math as before) to do. Given that you're probably only firing 3 steadies in the duration, I would put the value of that trinket at about 106.1 average AP. Certainly not bad, but there may be better trinkets.

[edit] Yes, I calculated them as an integer value. Given that the proc comes from a shot, you'll always have the first shot in the rotation following a proc be a 'full shot' (not some time averaged non-integer value). Hence, it's probably more realistic to model it using integers - but I accept that this is open to debate.
#1193SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2shookers
I was just spending some time trolling the "known bugs" thread on the WoW Bug Reports forum and came across this

Originally Posted by hortus
Spells, Talents & Abilities
- Hunter's Mark does not properly update itself when re-applied.
Does anyone have any more information on this problem? Is it not refreshing itself at all? I noticed it working properly on Tuesday, but it's also possible that the other hunters were refreshing it quickly after it fell off.

Source: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...10537510&sid=1
#1194SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Fendryl
I believe it is refreshing, the only issue is that the method it uses to refresh somehow doesn't play nicely with the new debuff duration stuff. Instead of the new effect getting a duration of 2m/2m everytime, it gets a something like 2m/2m+oldremaining time.
#1195SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2shookers
Originally Posted by Fendryl View Post
I believe it is refreshing, the only issue is that the method it uses to refresh somehow doesn't play nicely with the new debuff duration stuff. Instead of the new effect getting a duration of 2m/2m everytime, it gets a something like 2m/2m+oldremaining time.
So that would make it smart to stack it incredibly high at the beginning of a fight and never have to worry about it later on?
#1196SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Avellyr
I've been using a wind serpent with lightning breath macroed to my rotation abilities, and it works ok except for when my pet and I are on different targets. Is there some way to make the pet stay on its current target when I use a /cast lightning breath in my macro?
#1197SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ticia
Originally Posted by Avellyr View Post
I've been using a wind serpent with lightning breath macroed to my rotation abilities, and it works ok except for when my pet and I are on different targets. Is there some way to make the pet stay on its current target when I use a /cast lightning breath in my macro?
In the line that says /cast Lightning Breath (or whatever), do:

/cast [target=pettarget,exists]Lightning Breath; Lightning Breath

That should make the pet cast it on whatever it's current target is, or if it doesn't have one, it will try to cast on whatever your target is.
#1198SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
belgann
A bit off topic, but still relating to the OP:

I have recently respecced to Beast Mastery. I use SW_stats (along with Recap) but the rest of the raid uses DamageMeters. My dps on SW stats looks wonderful but on DM it looks totally worthless. I have asked if the users of the mod merge pet data, they say they did. I convinced another member of the raid to start using SW and we sync'd together and my dps is chart topping.

Is this a problem with DM or SW?

I've read up a bit on "TKA something" and found that most hunters do not trust DM and only use recap or sw stats. I would like some confirmation on this as to convince my fellow raiders to switchover to sw.

I also have a report from wow web stats as recorded by a shadow priest in the raid. This was during shade of aran attempts: Linky

Again this shows me leading dps. 3 sources show I lead, 1 does not.

Again, any confirmation would be great.

(Fixt)

Last edited by belgann : 06/21/07 at 10:33 PM.
#1199SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Don't sign your posts.

As far as I can remember: Your pet data won't be counted with DamageMeters, even though your raid members merge pet data, unless you yourself use and sync DamageMeters and have merge pet data checked.
#1200SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Faerlun
Originally Posted by Chul View Post
948dmg per tick is incredible.

I assume debuffs like Misery and Stormstrike increase the damage but I doubt that would explain that kind of damage. Even if you had 2500 raid buffed RAP, with FI, Misery, Stormstrike and popped BW with two 200AP trinkets, that would still only give at most 800dmg per tick based on what we know about SP. There must be something else effecting it that we haven't figured out yet.

Perhaps stormstrike is bugging it somehow, where it is applying the +20% per stack giving 100% dmg for 5 stacks or something similar ?

May I ask a few questions?

1. What scorpid do you have ? And can you check your pets base spell dmg (i.e. in normal buffs/gear) since some scorpids may be "caster" pets and have more spell dmg.

2. Do you get some nice ticks of SP outside a raid, say when soloing but using the same methods ?

Also, if we could get a hold of the combat log of your raid last night, or at least a section of it leading up to a 948dmg tick, that might shed some light on the buffs/debuffs that may be effecting it.

At the moment I am at a loss to explain what is happening.

EDIT: I wonder if debuffs that increase magic damage has a two fold effect: The first is to increase the base damage of SP, which all stack ticks are based on, then when they actually tick, they then get increased by the debuffs again. i.e. If SP would normally do 100 per tick, when it is first applied it uses say Misery (+5%) and Stormstrike (+20%) to get 126 base dmg tick. When it ticks again, it does 158 (126*1.05*1.2) for each stack on the mob.
1. Scorpid poison 4
2. Never seen anything big outside raid, but then again I basically only use a scorpid in raid

I don't have a log of me getting that, but I have one of my fellow hunters getting a tick of the same number, it seems to cap there whatever is causing it cause we both got the same tick with different gear.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=cm5qxozjnykfi&a=20

I use the level 11 rarespawn scorpid from the edge of durator. He is the same as other scorpids for spell damage and such.
#1201SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Siladil
Can someone confirm that in the 2.1.2 Patch the Scorpid Poisen has changed in the way that it can only applied from one Scorpid per Mob and any additional Skorpid will always miss with his Poisen ?

It happend to us yesterday in SSC with 2 Hunter and 2 Scorpids, whos Scorpid applied the Poisen First could hold it up and it ticked the amount pre Patch but the 2end Scorpid was never able to apply it.
#1202SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sapa
Originally Posted by Siladil View Post
Can someone confirm that in the 2.1.2 Patch the Scorpid Poisen has changed in the way that it can only applied from one Scorpid per Mob and any additional Skorpid will always miss with his Poisen ?

It happend to us yesterday in SSC with 2 Hunter and 2 Scorpids, whos Scorpid applied the Poisen First could hold it up and it ticked the amount pre Patch but the 2end Scorpid was never able to apply it.
They used same rank, only 1 rank of poison can be on mub at same time (basically, both hunters had 1 stack up, but only one got dps benefit) Works like this since, em? Release?

Try using rank5,4,3. They should stack seperatly.
#1203SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Siladil
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
They used same rank, only 1 rank of poison can be on mub at same time (basically, both hunters had 1 stack up, but only one got dps benefit) Works like this since, em? Release?

Try using rank5,4,3. They should stack seperatly.
Ah thx, yes bevore we had differnt Ranks.
#1204SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Breakerone
I finally really understood what a major improvement a +weapon skill stat is. I apologize if it has been covered before, but I believe not everyone really understood it fully like me, cause the wowwiki explanation is kind of messy. I asked one or two times, if someone could clear it up and got no answer, so now I just write it down for other people like me

I now understand that the 8,6% needed is divided in 5% for the base miss, which was clear, and 0,6% for difference in defense rating +3% for difference in level, which is still based on the difference in defense.

The 0,6% come from 0,04% steps per point of defense, while the 3% come from 0,2% steps per point of defense. Now the most interesting part is, that the latter will be reduced to 0,1% steps per point in defense, if you get the defense difference down to 10 or less.
That makes the troll or dwarf racial a flat 2,2% hit and makes the kazzak pants unbelievable good with (only 8agi gems) in terms of damage:
141 RAP
2,265% crit
3,74% hit!!
Compare that to the T5 pants:
140 RAP
1,29% crit
1,1% hit

Obviously the T5 brings other nice stats, but if someone has a problem to reach the hit cap, there seems to be no better way to solve the problem with just one item.

Sorry, if that was clear for a long time to anybody but me

Edit: because I forgot to add 0,64% crit, which also come from the weapon skill. I really need that pants now...

Last edited by Breakerone : 06/22/07 at 6:46 AM.
#1205SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Zurgat
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I now understand that the 8,6% needed is divided in 5% for the base miss, which was clear, and 0,6% for difference in defense rating +3% for difference in level, which is still based on the difference in defense.

The 0,6% come from 0,04% steps per point of defense, while the 3% come from 0,2% steps per point of defense. Now the most interesting part is, that the latter will be reduced to 0,1% steps per point in defense, if you get the defense difference down to 10 or less.
That makes the troll or dwarf racial a flat 2,2% hit and makes the kazzak pants unbelievable good with (only 8agi gems) in terms of

Obviously the T5 brings other nice stats, but if someone has a problem to reach the hit cap, there seems to be no better way to solve the problem with just one item.

Sorry, if that was clear for a long time to anybody but me
I think you have that wrong, you're splitting, and combining the difference from defence for some reason?
Quote: "The 0,6% come from 0,04% steps per point of defense, while the 3% come from 0,2% steps per point of defense."


It should be :
5% base miss
3.60% from level (15 defence) difference.

So, it's : 3.6 / 15 = 0,24 hit chance per weapon "skill" point.
Meaning the Dwarf, and Troll racial give a flat : 5x0.24 = 1,2% hit chance, not 2.2%
(Been like that since back in the Molten Core days iirc.)

So, do you have any source to back up this part :
"Now the most interesting part is, that the latter will be reduced to 0,1% steps per point in defense, if you get the defense difference down to 10 or less."

Edit: the 0.04 you might be thinking if, is probably for melee skill only.

Last edited by Zurgat : 06/22/07 at 6:59 AM.
#1206SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Breakerone
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
I think you have that wrong, you're splitting, and combining the difference from defence for some reason?
Quote: "The 0,6% come from 0,04% steps per point of defense, while the 3% come from 0,2% steps per point of defense."


It should be :
5% base miss
3.60% from level (15 defence) difference.

So, it's : 3.6 / 15 = 0,24 hit chance per weapon "skill" point.
Meaning the Dwarf, and Troll racial give a flat : 5x0.24 = 1,2% hit chance, not 2.2%
(Been like that since back in the Molten Core days iirc.)

So, do you have any source to back up this part :
"Now the most interesting part is, that the latter will be reduced to 0,1% steps per point in defense, if you get the defense difference down to 10 or less."
Ok, I should have written more explanations, but somehow I felt I was the only one who didnt know that, so I didnt want to blow up the post.

You are right, that 3,6% comes from the 15 point difference in defense, but as I said, you need to divide that in two parts. One part, the 0,6% are a separate effect of the +weapon skill and make a solid 0,04% per point, no matter what, thats why its split. I shouldnt have bound that to defense for better understanding, but technically it is.

The other 3% are for the level difference, which comes down to defense points, which becomes obvious by the fact that the one point in defense around the 10 mark makes a huge difference and lowers the total penalty from 0,2% per defense to 0,1% per defense.

So, as far as the sources are correct, troll and dwarf racial is a 2,2% hit and a surefooted troll or dwarf with the kazzak pants has gigantic 7,44% hit and needs only the ridiculous amount of 18,3 hit rating on other items to cap.
Sources:
http://www.tkasomething.com/hitrating.php
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill

So, to clarify again, there are two effects on +weapon skill. The first part gives you a direct percentage to lower your miss by 0,04% per point in weapon skill.
The second part is, that weapon skill directly conters the opposing effect of the enemies defense skill, which has the aforementioned effect and offers a sweet spot, when you have +5 weapon skill against a lvl 73 mob.

Edit: for better wording

Last edited by Breakerone : 06/22/07 at 6:23 AM.
#1207SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Excepting the WoWWiki page (which, as a source, I find slightly lackluster...), I see no other mention of the penalty changing from 0.2% to 0.1% at 5 Weapon Skill.
Originally Posted by TKASomething
Weapon Skill: For each point that your weapon skill gains in relation to your opponent's defense you will gain:
- 0.024% to Hit the Opponent
- 0.04% to Crit the Opponent (melee - unverified)
Based on test I did pre-TBC (and thus pre-Weapon Skill changes), I seemed to gain 0.24% Hit per Weapon Skill, regardless of if I was above or below 5 Weapon Skill.
Thus, with 1 Level difference set to 5 Skill, I simply made an adjustment for Hit Rate somewhat as follows:

YourHit% = HitChance + (YourWeaponSkill - OpponentSkill)*0.24

This seemed to be consistent with all test I made, as well as samples I saw from other Hunters.
#1208SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Excepting the WoWWiki page (which, as a source, I find slightly lackluster...), I see no other mention of the penalty changing from 0.2% to 0.1% at 5 Weapon Skill.

Based on test I did pre-TBC (and thus pre-Weapon Skill changes), I seemed to gain 0.24% Hit per Weapon Skill, regardless of if I was above or below 5 Weapon Skill.
Thus, with 1 Level difference set to 5 Skill, I simply made an adjustment for Hit Rate somewhat as follows:

YourHit% = HitChance + (YourWeaponSkill - OpponentSkill)*0.24

This seemed to be consistent with all test I made, as well as samples I saw from other Hunters.
Well, yes, I have nothing else but wowiki on this part. But I would present it in a different way. The formula itself is not that +5 weapon skill is reducing the penalty, this is merely a sideeffect or a coincidence.

I would put it that way, that the enemies defense skill gives you +0.1% miss until 10 points of difference. Above that it changes to 0.2% per defense point, but not only for the remaining 5 points, but for all 15. So its crucial to stay below 11 points in difference.

Of course you could say, why would there be a turning point, why is it not plain 0,2% per point of defense from the beginning + the 0,04% mentioned above, because that also fits your result if you just have no +skill and your mob is 3 levels above you.

I have no further arguments besides wowwiki and the fact that the other hunter in my raid never misses and I have the logs to prove it. He has 54 hit rating, 3/3 surefooted, is a bow-using troll and has the kazzak pants.
That gives him 3,42% hit + 3% hit + 21 weapon skill.

Now if the wowwiki formula is right, that would give him 10,86% to hit, obviously above the cap.

If yours is right he would have a total of 6,42 + (21-15)*0.24 = 7,86%
That would give a miss in full raids sooner or later.
#1209SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
He has 54 hit rating, 3/3 surefooted, is a bow-using troll and has the kazzak pants.
That gives him 3,42% hit + 3% hit + 21 weapon skill.
Troll racial (5 Weapon Skill)
+ Kazzak legs (16 Weapon Skill Rating -- 4 Weapon Skill)
= 9 Weapon Skill

Just a small note
#1210SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Breakerone
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Troll racial (5 Weapon Skill)
+ Kazzak legs (16 Weapon Skill Rating -- 4 Weapon Skill)
= 9 Weapon Skill

Just a small note
Aaargh, really, I missed that the whole time...

Ok, then its difficult to prove it with the help of my logs, because the wowiki formula still tops the cap, but yours also gives 8,58%, so nothing to read out of this.

Actually, now that I reread it, does your formula really make sense?
I mean, first you said +1skill gives you a flat 0.24% hit, thats what I used to determine the 8,58% now.

But with the formula you posted above I get totally different results. Might also be because I am too dumb, so I am asking

Last edited by Breakerone : 06/22/07 at 7:50 AM.
#1211SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
54 Hit Rating, 3/3 Surefooted, 9 Weapon Skill

YourHit% = HitChance + (YourWeaponSkill - OpponentSkill)*0.24
YourHit% = 95 + (54/15.77) + 3 + (9 - 15)*0.24
YourHit% = 95 + 3.42 + 3 -1.44
YourHit% = 99.98

95 = base Hit Chance
54/15.77 = Hit Chance gained from Hit Rating
3 = Hit Chance gained from Surefooted
(9 - 15)*0.24 = Hit Chance based on Level difference.

I see why this can be slightly confusing, due to the way I set it up in the previous post.
#1212SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
54 Hit Rating, 3/3 Surefooted, 9 Weapon Skill

YourHit% = HitChance + (YourWeaponSkill - OpponentSkill)*0.24
YourHit% = 95 + (54/15.77) + 3 + (9 - 15)*0.24
YourHit% = 95 + 3.42 + 3 -1.44
YourHit% = 99.98

95 = base Hit Chance
54/15.77 = Hit Chance gained from Hit Rating
3 = Hit Chance gained from Surefooted
(9 - 15)*0.24 = Hit Chance based on Level difference.

I see why this can be slightly confusing, due to the way I set it up in the previous post.
Got it now. Ok, I was totally confused, because I thought you were giving a formula for the additional char sheet hit percentage

Well, as it stands its you and tkasomething against wowwiki.
But you are the only one out of these who can go out and test it

99,98% has a chance to produce a miss, but it never happened. Sadly I guess the data of some 10k shots is not enough to judge by that, cause it might still have been luck.
#1213SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Got it now. Ok, I was totally confused, because I thought you were giving a formula for the additional char sheet hit percentage

Well, as it stands its you and tkasomething against wowwiki.
But you are the only one out of these who can go out and test it

99,98% has a chance to produce a miss, but it never happened. Sadly I guess the data of some 10k shots is not enough to judge by that, cause it might still have been luck.
I wouldn't put too much trust in WoWWiki stuff, but that might be just me.
Also, it's not [Lactose & TKASomething] vs [WoWWiki], it's more [Lactose] vs [TKASomething] vs [WoWWiki].
Note that I'm giving Weapon Skill a 0.24% Hit modifier, while TKASomething is giving it a 0.024% modifier (which I find way too low). Also, the TKASomething source is using decimals, while I'm using floored values (3 instead of 3.x).

The [Lactose] vs [WoWWiki] thing could possibly be tested better with Weapon Skill values below 5. With my numbers, you'd see a much bigger Hit gain than with the WoWWiki numbers. Might be a bit hard to parse it, though.
#1214SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
I have (some) evidence that there is either a % rate we cannot overcome, or your formula's are wrong.

I have a S.S on nightbane where i missed a shot with 136 hit rating. Now the reason why it's only some evidence, is because i have only my word that i wasn't afflicted by the -hit % debuff. I haven't recieved a miss since then also since i upgraded the violet eye signet and have 140 soemthing hit rating.
#1215SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2lilwolfe
Following the conversations on the previous page, I have some questions about my new scorpid! First off, it's a blast playing with him and aiming to get those nice ticks. Now, I grabbed the highest level scorpid I could find, so to avoid the painful level up process but I never had a scorpid before, so I don't have scorpid poison 4. Is it that much better to go with 4 for the increased duration, or is rank 5 alright if you dont mind the stacks falling off?

The max hit on scorpid poison with WWS. Does that show the highest possible tick you managed to get off during the fight? I assume the tick I have in my report from last nights gruul, must have occured during the cube clicking because it hit ... well, insanely high.

My biggest question though, is about the combat messages in game. Is there a way to have only YOUR pets periodic damage show up? If I show creatures damage, I can see the poison tick but I see everyone elses crap too. Is there a mod, or UI set up, or option I am missing?

Thanks!
#1216SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
rank 4 poison is MUCH better. Dont forget to position him behind the mob as well as asking the tank to flip him if you cant position. Rank 5 poison gives you one chance to reapply, with 4% hit talent you still have about a 5% chance for the poison to miss so the stack resets. The whole point of scorpid poison being OP was buffing it up with AP trinkets, FI, BW etc and then keeping that buffed poison up for as long as possible.
#1217SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
lilwolfe
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
rank 4 poison is MUCH better. Dont forget to position him behind the mob as well as asking the tank to flip him if you cant position. Rank 5 poison gives you one chance to reapply, with 4% hit talent you still have about a 5% chance for the poison to miss so the stack resets. The whole point of scorpid poison being OP was buffing it up with AP trinkets, FI, BW etc and then keeping that buffed poison up for as long as possible.
Yeah that's what I thought- but was really hoping to avoid having to ditch this one, to get a smaller one just to learn rank 4 so I can retrain this one lol. So next question, -- that's still the only way for me to go back to fetch the rank 4 poison right?

Last edited by lilwolfe : 06/22/07 at 11:23 AM. Reason: spelling
#1218SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
You have 2 stable slots. stable scorpid, get new scorpid, learn rank 4, ditch new scorpid, take old scorpid back out,
#1219SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Fendryl
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
You have 2 stable slots. stable scorpid, get new scorpid, learn rank 4, ditch new scorpid, take old scorpid back out,
It's not necessary to stable to learn skills anymore, just dismiss your current pet, tame the new one, use it till you learn and then log out & back. I'm not sure if it's better to abandon or just logout/on (I've just logged previously). This will cause your stable to look like your temporary pet is your current pet, but moving your current into a slot & back seems to fix that too.

More info here: http://petopia.wordpress.com/2007/05...ug-or-feature/
#1220SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Oprahwinfury
We're using 3 BM Hunters together with a Feral Druid and a Enhancement Shaman in raids, all 3 Hunters using Cat pets. I searched through all 25 pages and I still have a question..

How much damage would Furious Howl used 3 times every 10 seconds add to that whole groups overall DPS? The pets would lose Claw but maybe the buff from the Wolf pets would more than make up for it if you consider that all 3 pets will buff eachother as well as the Shaman and the Druid. I fail at math and theorycrafting, thats why I'm asking.

I think the buffs from the wolves would add 76.5 DPS for us at best. Is this correct? I would need to figure out how much DPS the loss of Claw would hurt us as well though.

Last edited by Oprahwinfury : 06/22/07 at 1:06 PM. Reason: Edited for clarification
#1221SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
Pet Level 56 (25 TP). Party members within 15 yards receive an extra 45-57 damage to their next physical attack. Lasts 10 seconds

There seems to be no higher ranks.

Let's assume hunters stand at mininum bow range so that it affects hunters and druid and pets and shaman.

That's 8 targets per howl.

Now, the correct way of doing this is...

(Z(51 * X) + 51 * Y)

Now this is going to be confusing since i can't type what I would normally write.

Use this formula to find a # that corresponds with each target of Furious Howl.
X is the targets crit rate. Z is the Crit modifier. Y is 1-crit rate.

Example. A hunter with mortal shots and 30% crit rate.

(2.3(51 * .3) + 51 * .7)
(2.3(15.3) + 35.7)
70.89 is the average damage added to a hunter's attack.

10 second cooldown, 7.089 dps for that hunter.

As you can see, if you understand what I said, is that the damage added by Furious Howl scales based on the target's crit and crit modifier talents.

If you feel like getting the #'s from your hunters, i can tell you the approx. damage claw (assuming Bm hunter's here with GFTT) does.

Claw 54 - 76 damage. 65 average.

Modifiers, 25% happiness, 10% cat family, 20% unleashed fury, 1.5 second cooldown.

65 * 1.1 * 1.25 * 1.2 = 107.25 damage on average. Claw gives a BM hunter 71.5 dps assuming limitless focus. With GFTT and Bestial Discipline this isn't too outrageous, and the times when your pet can't claw would be made up for it's ability to proc FI as well as the 10% more white damage that a cat gains compared to a wolf.
#1222SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Oprahwinfury
Oh, thank you for taking the time to respond to this. I've been trying to figure this out for quite some time now.

Hunter 1 44/14/3 - Res Sickness on The Armory for the lose. I'll ask him as soon as he comes online.
Hunter 2 41/20/0 - 23.86% Crit Chance
Hunter 3 41/20/0 - 25.20% Crit Chance minus Elixir of Major Agility :/
Druid    0/56/5  - Wearing tank gear here unfortunately
Shaman   3/44/14 - 27.10% Crit Chance (+dual weilding Mongoose)
Does this help at all? I'll check what their stats are fully raid buffed with BoK/LotP/GoA totem next raid if that would be better but from what I can understand from your reply, Cat pets is the way to go unless everyone has fantastic gear?

Last edited by Oprahwinfury : 06/22/07 at 1:55 PM.
#1223SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
Hunter 1 44/14/3 -
Hunter 2 41/20/0 - 23.86% Crit Chance
Hunter 3 41/20/0 - 25.20% Crit Chance minus Elixir of Major Agility :/
Druid 0/56/5 - Wearing tank gear here unfortunately
Shaman 3/44/14 - 27.10% Crit Chance (+dual weilding Mongoose)

Gonna assume 20% crit chance for pets. Not gonna bother with mongoose, beyond my.. caring and possibly my skill.

(Z(51 * x)) + (51 * Y )
27.98 + 38.83 = 66.8114
27.2136 + 39.168 = 66.3816

61.2 * 3 = 183.6

316.793

64.821

I have 38.1614 dps assuming everyone gets the buff.
#1224SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Oprahwinfury
So it would add another ~40 Raid DPS under optimal circumstances, I think that answers my question. Thank you
#1225SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
Just wanted to mention that that was ~40 dps per wolf howl ignoring hunter 1 and the druid.
#1226SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sympa
Personally as far as bm has gone im still diggin the scorp pet with rank 5,.. hit a personal goal of breaking 1300 dps last night.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...zi&s=6725-7234
#1227SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ano
Nub Question Warning:

Are the "Leggings of Beast Mastery" any good compared to T4 and T5 legs regarding BM hunters?
#1228SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Ano View Post
Are the "Leggings of Beast Mastery" any good compared to T4 and T5 legs regarding BM hunters?
No. The only advantage they have is that your pet would generate slightly more threat from Growl if tanking. DPS-wise they're inferior to T4.
#1229SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
I was getting 840~ damage ticks on Gruul last night with a scorpid rank 5 poison. I'm assuming the only benefit to rank 4 is the 12 second duration vs the 8 second to avoid the 5 stack from dropping, correct? The other thing I noticed was the need to disable claw to make sure the pet constantly had focus to dump when the poison cooldown reset.

EDIT: Also, since the DOT scales with AP does this dps boost benefit much more from a full Marks hunter or does the BM tree's 20% damage boost to pet damage apply here? I'm guessing the mark's hunter will see bigger numbers? Anyone tested it with both specs?
#1230SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I'm assuming the only benefit to rank 4 is the 12 second duration vs the 8 second to avoid the 5 stack from dropping, correct?

EDIT: Also, since the DOT scales with AP does this dps boost benefit much more from a full Marks hunter or does the BM tree's 20% damage boost to pet damage apply here?
Please reread the last several pages, as they answer both of your questions.

To summarize: Rank 4 has a smaller chance of dropping and that is the only benefit (the duration is 10s, not 12s). BM benefits more from Scorpid Poison due to Bestial Wrath, which, when applied before the first tick, will increase damage of the entire stack by 50% until it falls off (usually long after BW wears off).
#1231SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Makes sense. I did notice more drop-off due to the 8 second duration but wasn't aware that BR made a difference with the dot damage itself. I assumed it was based solely off the hunter's RAP. Thanks.
#1232SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sympa
do serpents poison spit scale with ap aswell? havnt seen discussion of that.
#1233SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2lilwolfe
Originally Posted by Sympa View Post
do serpents poison spit scale with ap aswell? havnt seen discussion of that.

Pretty sure it does, but it lacks the ability to increase damage by stacking and/or staying applied. It's a one shot thing. Still, I think the consensus was that prior to this scorpid thing coming up, they made for nice dps because of it. (LB has no cooldown and is instant, so needs only a pool of focus to cast often.)
#1234SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sympa
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
It's a one shot thing.
yep was debating for pvp, might be nice to snag rogues with.
#1235SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2rokabud
Originally Posted by Reipin Pillage View Post
I'm using a Vashj bow, and I bought the crystalhide cape off the AH last night but didn't equip it yet.

Using Cheeky's spreadsheet it gives me almost a 10DPS boost OVER vengeance wrap. Not bad for a 2.57 perma haste item.
Does any one have any infro from testing this cape?
#1236SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2GoneHuntin
Hey, New to posting on the forums, been reading this thread for a while now unfortunately its 3am and I have skipped the past 10 pages or so, please forgive me if some1 has mentioned this.

Me and some guildies were testing out the scorpid poison numbers for ourselves, now we hav ean avid hunter population and our group at the time consisted of 4 bm hunters 3 of which were using scorps. 2 of us had rank 4 going the other I beleive was using a freshly tamed scorp with rank 5. Now somehow I managed to whore myself all the scorpid poison stack I was getting the first scorpid poison hit. now this is where the weird part comes in... we were messing in tk, just trying to clear to void reaver and see if we could down him, I was maximizing my poison on every occasion, from time to time I noticed something strage, I was getting my ticks 6-700~ on average when capped, but I was also receiving numbers in my SCT from one of the other hunters scorpids as well ticking for around 550~ both numbers were adding to my damage on the charts. by the end of the trash clear I was sitting pretty at the top of the chart with 1.5 million in damage accumulated, next closest was one of the other hunters at 1 mil. a MASSIVE gap, has anybody encountered this yet while using scorpid poison? because that gap is absolutely nuts. i fully intend to do more testing on this, see if I can replicate it and find the cause of what was happening.
#1237SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ellurion


wtf?

Had this yesterday on the Vashj P1.

Mb it's effect from Stormstrike?

But it can't be because i had 785 ticks with Stormstrike:



Any guess?
#1238SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sapa
Originally Posted by Ellurion View Post


wtf?

Had this yesterday on the Vashj P1.

Mb it's effect from Stormstrike?

But it can't be because i had 785 ticks with Stormstrike:



Any guess?
I had erratic ticks with scorp too. After he build up stack (and during while he was building it).

Things i considered to be possible:

Misery falling off / Shaman forgot to renew totem / Stormstrike on/off.
(got 4-5 locks in raid so debuff falling down definitely was an option)

Will try to find combatlog.
#1239SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2GoneHuntin
In all my testing thus far I havent had stormstrike affect my scorpid poison in any way. not when applied on top of a storm strike nor using a charge of storm strike with a tick. how did you get stormstrike to affect yours?
#1240SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Oprahwinfury
I think Stormstrike only affects Direct Damage nature spells, like Wrath, Lightning Bolt etc. It might still be affected by Instant Poison unless they changed that recently, very annoying when a Rogue eats your debuffs with a low damage move, since Stormstrike only have 2 charges and a 10 second cooldown.
#1241SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Reipin Pillage
I finally found a small period of time to test the capes.

I must let you know now, at about the 6 minute mark of the second test, some fool came over and killed the guys I was testing on, and I was not about to go back and do this again cause I am in a rush today.

I used no proccing trinkets, and I did not use hawk as I have IAOTH. Crystalweave came out ahead 21 DPS higher. Something I do not understand though is the amount of auto versus steady. They should be on a 1 for 1 basis as I was just spamming the auto/steady macro.

Crystalweave clock: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=la6s6fph2hwsk&a=0

Vengeance Wrap: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=tii26qk5tdcpo&a=0

If someone wants the actual logs let me know, I can zip and send. Gotta get running though!
#1242SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
1.5% higher average crit would end up in about.. 12 dps.

Guess I'll buy one and run my own test using haste effects which then decreases the dps difference even more so will see.

Tyvm for the WWS logs btw.
#1243SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Klorak
As I think someone else has noted somewhere on these boards, it takes a while after you pop your Bloodlust Brooch trinket until your scorpid pet gets the increase in spell damage. If you start stacking the scorpid poison before the increase in pet spell damage happens you don't get the benefit. You can have the pet window open to observe this but I was wondering if there was some light standalone addon that could monitor this?
#1244SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Lysander1
Has anyone figured out what is going on with poison ticks? Today on Prince I was seeing ticks ~650, but every once in awhile I would see a few down near 550 and then some near 500. It would always come back to 650 in the next few ticks, but it sure was puzzling. My pet also did 12% of the raid damage with a 3 healer 1 tank group, but that says more about how bad my guild's DPS is than about how good the pet is.

Only thing that comes to mind is Stormstrike, as I was in a group with an enhancement shaman. But considering that Stormstrike uptime isn't all too great, wouldn't it be expected to find more low damage ticks than higher damage ticks? I'm going to save the combat log next time I bring out the scorpid and try to see if I can find any sort of correlation between the low damage ticks and what debuffs were recently applied.

(Oh, also.. asking the shaman to drop Wrath of Air for the first 15 seconds of the fight is really helpful. It doesn't seem like a lot, but the extra spelldamage from the totem is pretty much like having a third +damage modifier (the first two being trinket and BW).
#1245SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2lilwolfe
Originally Posted by Ellurion View Post


wtf?

Had this yesterday on the Vashj P1.

Mb it's effect from Stormstrike?

But it can't be because i had 785 ticks with Stormstrike:



Any guess?
Ellurion - what are you using mod wise that is allowing your combat chat to show you your scorpids poison dot? I've been trying to find a way so I can only parse my own stuff (and pet) for the last three days. Only way I've found is to set the default chat settings for combat to 'show creatures periodic damage' but that shows EVERYONES damage to it. Very spammy.

Has anyone figured out what is going on with poison ticks? Today on Prince I was seeing ticks ~650, but every once in awhile I would see a few down near 550 and then some near 500. It would always come back to 650 in the next few ticks, but it sure was puzzling. My pet also did 12% of the raid damage with a 3 healer 1 tank group, but that says more about how bad my guild's DPS is than about how good the pet is.
I've been noticing this as well. I was trying to watch to see if FI increased the damage on top of its increase from the first application. Either it was lucky coincidence, or, the ticks were doing more damage even after 'steadying out' when FI was up. Either way, I am curious to find out what is causing the variations.
#1246SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
That's Simple Combat Log - it's an ACE addon I believe. Very useful.

I've also noticed the scorpid poison variability issue. I honestly have no idea what would be causing it - the only way to change the damage a scorpid stack does once it's applied is for the target to gain a debuff making it take more damage (i.e. banish on Mag, etc). However, I've noticed that occasionally poison does an extra 100-150 damage.

So, no new data on that, but I can confirm that something funky happens. Maybe just a player-applied debuff, but I don't know yet.
#1247SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kolusius
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
I've been noticing this as well. I was trying to watch to see if FI increased the damage on top of its increase from the first application. Either it was lucky coincidence, or, the ticks were doing more damage even after 'steadying out' when FI was up. Either way, I am curious to find out what is causing the variations.
Are you guys sure it isnt partial resists? I remember Simple Combat Log not always recording partial resists on my arcane shots, just parsing them as lower numbers. Otherwise I'd assume its misery falling off. The resist amount isnt always going to be in 25% increments, because if I recall correctly, the resist is applied before modifiers.
#1248SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Misery is only 5% though, we're seeing much larger differences. It certainly could be partial resists, but I'm not seeing anyone recording them as such (neither SCT nor SCC nor WWS is picking them up as partial resists). Likewise, if it were partial resists, then some 90-95% of my poison ticks are getting partially resisted at the same rate, and a few are not being resisted and dealing more damage. While that's only circumstantial evidence, I'm not inclined to believe it's a partial resist phenomenon.

However, I'm sure there's a simple explanation that we've somehow overlooked (and we'll feel stupid once someone mentions it!).
#1249SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Faerlun
Something very strange happened to me a couple times a few nights ago. I didn't think much of it at the time because I was quite focused on the boss fights, but thinking back on it, it seems impossible. I had activated my trinkets and BW and turned on scorpid poison. I was watching the debuff on the boss to make sure the applications were going off. It got to 4 applications, then as I watched, went to 3 applications. This seems impossible to me, unless lady vashj somehow dispeled just one stack of scorpid poison. I figure this might explain some of the huge variations we see in scorpid poison damage, but I haven't had time to test it yet, nor much of an idea how I would be able to test it.
#1250SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kolusius
Well losing a stack of the poison would do it, and put it closer to the numbers reported in Zek's screenshot. And it would make sense that it would make it back to a full stack based off the original tick. Could that be it?

Edit: Going from a 5 stack to a 4 stack would reduce the stack in the screenshot to 573/572 damage, not sure if that could be it.
#1251SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Faerlun
I am going to try to make a quick addon that displays in a box somewhere how many stacks of scorpid poison are active. I'll try to watch what happens with the stacks then, and see if I can compare the numbers to DoT ticks in my combat log via time stamps.
#1252SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Keltan
Quartz (WowAce mod) will display a minibar showing your current stack of Scorpid Poison, for those looking for a way to keep track of it. (Not to mention it's the best castbar mod out there I've seen.)
#1253SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Faerlun
Originally Posted by Keltan View Post
Quartz (WowAce mod) will display a minibar showing your current stack of Scorpid Poison, for those looking for a way to keep track of it. (Not to mention it's the best castbar mod out there I've seen.)
bah... right after I finish writing my own addon to do it. oh well, that one is probably better.
#1254SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
can someone explain what is meant by wowace mod? I don't use any and from my experience with some they are more complicated then I care for.
#1255SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ezzy
www.wowace.com or direct downloads http://files.wowace.com

"Ace is a lightweight and powerful system for building World of Warcraft addons. Ace provides developers with the tools needed by most addons, freeing them from repeating common tasks and allowing them to jump right into the creative part of building their addons. New and experienced addon coders alike can benefit from Ace's features."

All very experimental as all addons are, but work really nice.
#1256SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Zenge
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
54 Hit Rating, 3/3 Surefooted, 9 Weapon Skill

YourHit% = HitChance + (YourWeaponSkill - OpponentSkill)*0.24
YourHit% = 95 + (54/15.77) + 3 + (9 - 15)*0.24
YourHit% = 95 + 3.42 + 3 -1.44
YourHit% = 99.98

95 = base Hit Chance
54/15.77 = Hit Chance gained from Hit Rating
3 = Hit Chance gained from Surefooted
(9 - 15)*0.24 = Hit Chance based on Level difference.

I see why this can be slightly confusing, due to the way I set it up in the previous post.
I'm having a hard time following this or at least finding the value for everything. Perhaps you could give me an example using my current armory.

95 = base hit
84/15.77 = 5.33
0 = No sure footed.
Since i have scaled greaves the last part would be (16-15)*0.24 but where is the 15, and 0.24 coming from?
95+5.33+0+.0576=100.38%
Does this mean i have 100.38% chance to hit a level 73 mob given those numbers or is there something more i am missing because it seems to me 16 skill rating should be >.05. But then again i am probably doing somthing wrong here.
#1257SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
can someone explain what is meant by wowace mod? I don't use any and from my experience with some they are more complicated then I care for.
WoWace is a library of functions that make themselves available to various mods. For example, rather than having 5 mods that all calculate threat independently for their own purposes, ACE has a library that contains functions to calculate threat. These functions can be called by mods to do their bidding without creating multiple instances of doing the same work. I'm not a programmer (well, I am, but a very poor one), so I hope that explanation makes a little sense.

Generally speaking (not universally true, however) ACE mods CAN use fewer resources than non-ACE mods. Again, that's not gospel, but it seems to be the prevailing opinion of many. Of course, the quality of the coding has just as big an impact (if not more so) than whether or not the mod uses ACE libraries.
#1258SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Zenge View Post
I'm having a hard time following this or at least finding the value for everything. Perhaps you could give me an example using my current armory.
ChanceToHitTarget = 95 + 84/15.77 + 0.24*floor(16/3.94) - 0.24*15
ChanceToHitTarget = 95 + 5.327 + 0.96 - 3.6
ChanceToHitTarget = 97.59%

95 = Base Chance to Hit
84/15.77 = Chance to Hit gained from Hit Rating
0.24 = Chance to Hit gained per Weapon Skill
0.24*floor(16/3.94) = Chance to Hit gained from Weapon Skill Rating
0.24*15 = Chance to Hit penalty due to 3 level difference, 5 Skill per level
#1259SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Zenge
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
ChanceToHitTarget = 95 + 84/15.77 + 0.24*floor(16/3.94) - 0.24*15
ChanceToHitTarget = 95 + 5.327 + 0.96 - 3.6
ChanceToHitTarget = 97.59%

95 = Base Chance to Hit
84/15.77 = Chance to Hit gained from Hit Rating
0.24 = Chance to Hit gained per Weapon Skill
0.24*floor(16/3.94) = Chance to Hit gained from Weapon Skill Rating
0.24*15 = Chance to Hit penalty due to 3 level difference, 5 Skill per level
I must be having a bad day or something because i cant follow that at all....
I follow the 95 base chance
I follow the 84/15.77
I follow the .24% / Weaponskill
I follow the 0.24*15 = Chance to Hit penalty due to 3 level difference, 5 Skill per level which would be 0.24*10 on a 72 mob right?
But what i don't follow is 0.24*floor(16/3.94) Where is the 3.94 coming from and what is "floor" Are you saying to calculate 16/3.94 then round down to 0.97 then multiply it by 0.24?

I follow the math however if i increase my hit rating to 100 it would be as follows

95+100/15.77+0.24*Floor(16/3.94)-0.24*15
95+6.3+0.24(4.06)-3.6
95+6.3+0.97-3.6
98.67%
#1260SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Zenge View Post
But what i don't follow is 0.24*floor(16/3.94) Where is the 3.94 coming from and what is "floor" Are you saying to calculate 16/3.94 then round down to 0.97 then multiply it by 0.24?
To get the amount of Hit gained from Weapon Skill Rating, we first have to figure out how much Weapon Skill said Weapon Skill Rating gives us.
At Level 70, we need 3.94 Weapon Skill Rating per Weapon Skill.
Floor() is a common math function (or, at least I believe it's common), rounding down the value inside the parenthesis. I do this because we do not seem to get partial Weapon Skill, that is, we don't have 8.6 Weapon Skill, we have 8.

floor(16/3.94) = floor(4.06) = 4
Thus, we gain 4 Weapon Skill from 16 Weapon Skill Rating, and we gain 4*0.24 = 0.96% Chance to Hit from 16 Weapon Skill Rating.

Hope that cleared it up.
#1261SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Xoran
Just a second thought on addons: I use DebuffFilter http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/downloads/details/3574/ to show me huntersmark and scorpidpoison alongside my target. Works very well to keep track of those.
#1262SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Northerner
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Floor() is a common math function (or, at least I believe it's common), rounding down the value inside the parenthesis.
Floor() in its various forms (most languages and scripts have it) is a truncation and not a rounding. So 1.99 becomes 1.0 under fx(1.99) where the function is Floor. A small thing but important to remember.
#1263SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Abynthe
Colour me confused!

What's the difference between Floor(1.99) = 1 and rounding 1.99 down to the nearest integer, and getting 1?

edit: unless you're referring a change in decimal points, which seems irrelevant when we're obviously talking about integer values.
#1264SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Abynthe View Post
What's the difference between Floor(1.99) = 1 and rounding 1.99 down to the nearest integer, and getting 1?
There would be a difference with negative values.
-1.6 rounded down = -2
-1.6 truncated = -1

I always seem to have problems remembering this kind of stuff when I'm explaining them :P
#1265SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Jerem
Originally Posted by Klorak View Post
As I think someone else has noted somewhere on these boards, it takes a while after you pop your Bloodlust Brooch trinket until your scorpid pet gets the increase in spell damage. If you start stacking the scorpid poison before the increase in pet spell damage happens you don't get the benefit. You can have the pet window open to observe this but I was wondering if there was some light standalone addon that could monitor this?
I have a question about this :

My scorpid's spelldamage (in its window) remains at 0, no matter what trinket or ability I use.

I can see the effects of said trinket or ability, by the increase on the poison's ticks, but the spelldamage value doesn't change at all.
It is not a big deal, because I got used to starting applying scorpid poison after the buffs have been active for a couple of seconds, but I'm just wondering why.

Any ideas ?
#1266SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Lysander1
Jerem, how can the spelldamage be 0? Your RAP should scale the pet's spell damage, meaning that even without trinkets you ought to have some. Consider disabling your UI (rename your WTF and Interface folders to something else, such as WTFold) and seeing if its a display bug. If that doesn't work, try consulting a GM. I would guess its a UI error, though, maybe some mod that is changing your pet window for easier viewing?
#1267SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Jerem
Good point Lysander.

I'll give it a try tonight.
As you said, it might be only a graphical bug, because I have results similar to those posted in this thread with my scorpid.

Thanks for the fast reply.
#1268SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Gjorn
I have a question about BM and haste abilities and trinkets.

I recall reading about it in this thread before, but couldn't find it in this rapidly growing thread.

What I wonder about is wether it's worth taking IAotH, and if it is, how many points. My current profile looks like this:

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...n&r=Bloodscalp

With that setup, which seems fairly average in regards to weapon speed, I, if my feebcalculations are correct, end up with an attack speed of 2,023. With five points in IAotH I go down to 1.72. If any other haste rating is used that'll mean I'll fall below the 1.5 speed line. Without IAotH the Abacus of Violent Odds will put me at 1.5, while most others, bloodlust, rapid fire, etc. will put me below.

Does this mean IAotH should be avoided and that haste trinkets and abilities are fairly usless for BM hunters, or is IAotH useful, as long as no other abilites are used?
#1269SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Reipin Pillage
Osse, any chance you managed to get ahold of that cloak?
#1270SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Gjorn View Post
I have a question about BM and haste abilities and trinkets.

I recall reading about it in this thread before, but couldn't find it in this rapidly growing thread.

What I wonder about is wether it's worth taking IAotH, and if it is, how many points. My current profile looks like this:

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...n&r=Bloodscalp

With that setup, which seems fairly average in regards to weapon speed, I, if my feebcalculations are correct, end up with an attack speed of 2,023. With five points in IAotH I go down to 1.72. If any other haste rating is used that'll mean I'll fall below the 1.5 speed line. Without IAotH the Abacus of Violent Odds will put me at 1.5, while most others, bloodlust, rapid fire, etc. will put me below.

Does this mean IAotH should be avoided and that haste trinkets and abilities are fairly usless for BM hunters, or is IAotH useful, as long as no other abilites are used?
Honestly, keeping IAotH will be a boost in damage output if you can cope with varying attack speed. The only time you're going to have serious issues is (as you noted) when stacking haste - and you can switch to every other steady to avoid clipping autos in that case. It's very much dependent upon how much haste you think you can handle before you clobber shots. For me, it's not very much (and I don't have IAotH for that reason). For others, they have the skill/latency to handle varying attack speed without issues and use IAotH. It may just take some testing to determine if you can handle the varying haste - if you can, use IAotH for a damage boost. If not, using IAotH will probably lower your damage (or at least not boost it very much) due to clipping shots.
#1271SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Gjorn
As of now I usually stick to spamming SS and supplementing them for MS or AS when cooldowns are up and mana allows for it. I don't feel skilled enought to try and slip two specials between autos with my BM spec on a regular basis. So speccing into IAtoH and just spam a SS/KC macro when it procs might be a workable idea.
#1272SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Faerlun
For anyone who wants a lightweight Scorpid Poison Tracker that you don't need to configure or anything, I uploaded mine to curse last night, you can find it here.

It displays how many stacks are currently active on your pet's target, and how long until the debuff will fall off without a reapplication. This is nice on fights where your pet is DPSing a main target while you DPS adds (phase 3 vashj!)
#1273SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Daenerys
Originally Posted by Faerlun View Post
For anyone who wants a lightweight Scorpid Poison Tracker that you don't need to configure or anything, I uploaded mine to curse last night, you can find it here.

It displays how many stacks are currently active on your pet's target, and how long until the debuff will fall off without a reapplication. This is nice on fights where your pet is DPSing a main target while you DPS adds (phase 3 vashj!)
I can't check that at work (Curse's site is blocked because it's a "gaming" site...), but does that also display the damage? I tried to set up a chat box to show what it's ticking for, but when I found the combat log option that displays Scoprid Poison damage, it turns out that it displays all DoT affects...kinda hard to read in a 25-man with how fast it scrolls...
#1274SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
Havent seen a cloak in AH yet. :|

Checking twice a day.
#1275SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Faerlun
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
I can't check that at work (Curse's site is blocked because it's a "gaming" site...), but does that also display the damage? I tried to set up a chat box to show what it's ticking for, but when I found the combat log option that displays Scoprid Poison damage, it turns out that it displays all DoT affects...kinda hard to read in a 25-man with how fast it scrolls...
It doesn't, but I could add that pretty easily. I'll do that later tonight and upload a new version. Also will implement a small fix so that if you hide the panel, it doesn't show up again next time you log on or reloadui.
#1276SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2footstab
For the taming a low level scorpid to get your level 70 with Rank 4 Poison... im having some issues with the instructions given...

if anyone cares to type out a more detailed instruction on how this bug is acheived i would be ever so grateful.

Will this work if i have a 1 stable slot open, 1 cat in stable. 1 Scorpid with me? Or must i have 2 stable slots open? Which scorpid am i taming? The lvl 53?55?56? the exact mob name and rank he comes with would help me. After i have him tamed, do i run around waiting for him to gain a loyalty rank? Do i need to get a lvl 55 and level him to 56 then teach him Rank4? Then abandon?

I need more clarity with no grey areas. Ive been trying for hours and not getting anywhere..

thank you
#1277SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
You don't need any open stable slots.

If you have an open stable slot:

Stable whatever pet you have.
Tame a scorpid in silithus.
Send it to attack something with scorpid sting on autocast.
Dismiss that scorpid after you learn the ability.
Get out your lvl 70 scorpid.
Retrain him at a pet trainer.

If you do not have an open stable slot:

Dismiss your current pet (not abandon, dismiss).Tame a scorpid in silithus.
Send it to attack something with scorpid sting on autocast.
Dismiss that scorpid after you learn the ability.
Get out your lvl 70 scorpid.
Retrain him at a pet trainer.
#1278SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Zenge
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
To get the amount of Hit gained from Weapon Skill Rating, we first have to figure out how much Weapon Skill said Weapon Skill Rating gives us.
At Level 70, we need 3.94 Weapon Skill Rating per Weapon Skill.
Floor() is a common math function (or, at least I believe it's common), rounding down the value inside the parenthesis. I do this because we do not seem to get partial Weapon Skill, that is, we don't have 8.6 Weapon Skill, we have 8.

floor(16/3.94) = floor(4.06) = 4
Thus, we gain 4 Weapon Skill from 16 Weapon Skill Rating, and we gain 4*0.24 = 0.96% Chance to Hit from 16 Weapon Skill Rating.

Hope that cleared it up.
Cleared it up quite well thanks.
#1279SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Faerlun
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
I can't check that at work (Curse's site is blocked because it's a "gaming" site...), but does that also display the damage? I tried to set up a chat box to show what it's ticking for, but when I found the combat log option that displays Scoprid Poison damage, it turns out that it displays all DoT affects...kinda hard to read in a 25-man with how fast it scrolls...
Ok, it now displays the last scorpid poison damage tick. again, it can be found here. enjoy, and let me know if you guys think of anything else.
#1280SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
You don't need any open stable slots.

If you have an open stable slot:

Stable whatever pet you have.
Tame a scorpid in silithus.
Send it to attack something with scorpid sting on autocast.
Dismiss that scorpid after you learn the ability.
Get out your lvl 70 scorpid.
Retrain him at a pet trainer.

If you do not have an open stable slot:

Dismiss your current pet (not abandon, dismiss).Tame a scorpid in silithus.
Send it to attack something with scorpid sting on autocast.
Dismiss that scorpid after you learn the ability.
Get out your lvl 70 scorpid.
Retrain him at a pet trainer.

A funny sidenote:
I did this yesterday, tamed a silithus scorp and let it go directly for the next mob. After 2 ticks I already learned the Poison, so I abandoned the pet in midfight, while I hadnt attacked the mob myself yet. Abandoning worked in combat and the funny thing is, the mob just died after my pet disappeared while being at almost full health. Might be fun to try that on a boss you want to skip
#1281SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sapa
I use DebuffFilter for poison stack.

OffTopic:

Ilidian Bow droped:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...w_betrayer.jpg
#1282SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Gjorn
Nice looking bow. I wonder what the Mp5 would be for a BM hunter. Not that I'll ever get a chance to use it, but still.
#1283SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
I'm not really a fan of something that, in a lot of cases, doesn't increase potential DPS, just decreases the expense of said potential DPS.
Looks very cool though.

Also, with its 3.0 speed, I'm kinda curious as to how great this actually is for a Marksman or Survival spec (disregarding mana gain in this context).
#1284SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Shandara
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Also, with its 3.0 speed, I'm kinda curious as to how great this actually is for a Marksman or Survival spec (disregarding mana gain in this context).
Wonder if combined with the non-set items with passive haste on them it would be feasible to use for a BM hunter (quick search turned up 2 mail items with +haste and a ring, for ~10% haste)
#1285SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Sapa
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I'm not really a fan of something that, in a lot of cases, doesn't increase potential DPS, just decreases the expense of said potential DPS.
Looks very cool though.

Also, with its 3.0 speed, I'm kinda curious as to how great this actually is for a Marksman or Survival spec (disregarding mana gain in this context).
Looks similar to Archimonde one? And has same stats? :/

Shot:
http://www.wowhead.com/?screenshot=view&3.30906#23900
Stats:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30906

I'm playing with SV atm, and I'm clipping auto shots when doing Auto, Steady+Multi, Auto part of rotation with Sunfury. Going to 3.0 speed would maybe ease that clipping a bit.

But rather than that I would like to see 2.4-2.6 speed, 90+dps bow.

Last edited by Sapa : 06/27/07 at 7:17 AM.
#1286SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
Only thing you can do with that Illidan bow is that if you have a quaranteed SP you can switch out all mp5 gear you have to get crit and ap.

(If you even have any :P)

Not so many fights out there that last for longer than 15 mins without a dps break where you can fd and drink. :|

Although, it's from Illidan so you dont really need the max dps or max consumables for bosses anymore as you've allready cleared all the bosses in the game.
#1287SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Enova
Well, you can score high aimed shot crits with it ^^ but i'm still not sure how the speed will benefit certain specs.... As for the proc, well, seems useful, and apparently it would amount to 26ish mp5. But don't look at me, i'm not the one who did the math...
#1288SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
It's easy to calculate.
x = average time between attacks
5*8*(1/x)

Proof:
If average time between attacks is 1.5 seconds:
0.67 attacks per second (1/1,5)
5.33 mana per second (0.67*8)
26.67 mana per 5 seconds (5.33*5)

5*8*(1/1.5) = 26.67
#1289SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Honestly, that bow isn't all that impressive to me. By the time you reach Illidan, you damn sure better have your mana issues worked out as a hunter (either potting or SP). That bow sacrifices a lot of stats for mp5 - frankly I'm not sure it's worth it (even though 26mp5 is a pretty big amount). I'd go with the Archimonde bow, even though it's still itemized poorly (stam? no thanks).
#1290SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Twelve
So back to the topic of Scorpid Poison and the irregular drops in damage.

After noticing the same thing happen to me last night on Morogrim i decided to test it out.
On Morogrim my poison damage dropped from 1005 to 837 for 2 ticks (DoT got knocked off after around 30 seconds :<) whichs works out as ~20% which lead me to Stormstrike.

I went to the Blasted Lands mobs with a Shaman and confirmed that Scorpid Poison is actually affected by Stormstrike but it doesnt eat the buff.
So as long as Stormstrike is active the poison will get the 20% increase.
#1291SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Very interesting result. I'm trying to think how this parallels Imp shadow bolt and dots (I recall there is some weird interaction, but what it was is escaping me at the moment). Perhaps someone can shed some light on this?
#1292SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Serpica
Originally Posted by Faerlun View Post
Ok, it now displays the last scorpid poison damage tick. again, it can be found here. enjoy, and let me know if you guys think of anything else.
Why is the console command /SCP instead of /SPC? Was /SPC already taken?

Also, thank you very much for making that addon... very nice idea.
#1293SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ishmaael
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Honestly, that bow isn't all that impressive to me.
Agreed, i think the dev team felt that agil / ap was getting boring :P. Honestly though, the ranged upgrades are a tad screwy, only thing after sunfury is either http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29949
or
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30105

Clearly the serpent spine blows the gun out of the water, and has better stat allocation than Archimonde's, the illiden bow however is interesting. The 12 AP / 15 crit rating loss is more or less equivalent to the 6.6 dps increase, and what it theoretically does is help to shift you from the mage/lockx3 + spriest group into somethign more like warrior, feral druid, enh shammy and rogue/warrior group. On some fights its going to equate to little in overall effect (super manas instead of the fel mana for instance) but on those fights where you just cant keep up with the mana being used it could really make the difference. Especially if you use a haste build.

The fact that theres 2 roughly similar bows off bosses which are roughly equivalent in progression is interesting. Gone are the days of 8 months on a crossbow of smiting.
#1294SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
Agreed, i think the dev team felt that agil / ap was getting boring :P. Honestly though, the ranged upgrades are a tad screwy, only thing after sunfury is either http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29949
or
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30105
You're forgetting: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32253
#1295SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
[quote=Ishmaael
The fact that theres 2 roughly similar bows off bosses which are roughly equivalent in progression is interesting. Gone are the days of 8 months on a crossbow of smiting.[/QUOTE]

I hope so, been raiding since MC first came out, guild just started TK, last ranged weapon i got out of an instance was the rhok' about 3 years ago. Then I bought a valano's
#1296SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Axelrod
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
Agreed, i think the dev team felt that agil / ap was getting boring :P. Honestly though, the ranged upgrades are a tad screwy, only thing after sunfury is either http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29949
or
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30105
Don't forget the Merciless Crossbow. Question about the gun though. Is it comparable to Vashj's bow if I were to use adamantite shells? We're talking pre-Hyjal, no access to the uber time ammo, but access to warden arrows from Cenarian exalted.
#1297SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Honestly, that bow isn't all that impressive to me. By the time you reach Illidan, you damn sure better have your mana issues worked out as a hunter (either potting or SP). That bow sacrifices a lot of stats for mp5 - frankly I'm not sure it's worth it (even though 26mp5 is a pretty big amount). I'd go with the Archimonde bow, even though it's still itemized poorly (stam? no thanks).
I agree, I'm not sure what is up with the itemization of these end-game bows. The best-designed bow I've seen so far is Sunfury in terms of point allocation. Vashj's bow has Stam, same with every other one all the way to Illidan. No thank you. Illidan's bow's mp/5 bonus is truly a lack-luster feature from such an epic encounter. Expose armor, or even some sort of DD proc would be more acceptable in my opinion.
#1298SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Nightshroud
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Keep in mind that cave-in cannot target pets (although it can hit pets) and pets cannot deal/receive shatter damage.
How was it determined pets can't be the initial target of cave-in? There has been some questions on the Blizzard Hunter forums about this lately. Apparently at least a few raid leaders are forbidding pet use on Gruul because they believe it increases cave-in frequency on the tank and melee folks.

I'm considering putting my pet off in a corner on Stay this week to see if it gets debuffed. Would prefer not to repeat this test if it has been done. Or perhaps the combat log names the initial target? Unfortunately I don't have a log handy to check.
#1299SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Mikari
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Very interesting result. I'm trying to think how this parallels Imp shadow bolt and dots (I recall there is some weird interaction, but what it was is escaping me at the moment). Perhaps someone can shed some light on this?
I believe imp shadowbolt works the same way, in that dots won't use up charges, only direct damage spells.
#1300SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Daenerys
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Honestly, that bow isn't all that impressive to me. By the time you reach Illidan, you damn sure better have your mana issues worked out as a hunter (either potting or SP). That bow sacrifices a lot of stats for mp5 - frankly I'm not sure it's worth it (even though 26mp5 is a pretty big amount). I'd go with the Archimonde bow, even though it's still itemized poorly (stam? no thanks).
I think the Illidan bow is for levelling to 80? Yes I'm half-joking (only half...), but I can't see any other reason for them to rehash an equip bonus from level 60 craftable gloves. Poor decision or laziness on the part of the devs. Making my DPS less expensive is nice, but once you kill the final boss of the game, the thing that brings you back to farm them is increasing your character's power, not saving a pot over the course of an encounter. Or maybe they really are gearing you up for levelling again...I know my Black Grasps were money levelling past 60... =/

Has there been any information about the bow that showed up on mmo-champion that looks like T5? I haven't really been following, but the lack of information about it and the confirmation of bows from Illidan and Archimonde suggests to me that bow was just a figment of someone's imagination. And are there no guns past Al'ar? That just seems so wrong...
#1301SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kasi
I would suspect that bow is there for the same reason Illidan drops a staff with 70 stamina on it. PVP. A hunter with that bow using that as well as Viper sting will be a major pain in the ass in arenas.
#1302SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
I think the Illidan bow is for levelling to 80? Yes I'm half-joking (only half...), but I can't see any other reason for them to rehash an equip bonus from level 60 craftable gloves. Poor decision or laziness on the part of the devs. Making my DPS less expensive is nice, but once you kill the final boss of the game, the thing that brings you back to farm them is increasing your character's power, not saving a pot over the course of an encounter. Or maybe they really are gearing you up for levelling again...I know my Black Grasps were money levelling past 60... =/

Has there been any information about the bow that showed up on mmo-champion that looks like T5? I haven't really been following, but the lack of information about it and the confirmation of bows from Illidan and Archimonde suggests to me that bow was just a figment of someone's imagination. And are there no guns past Al'ar? That just seems so wrong...
The 't5' bow is the one from Archimonde, as far as I know. It's not a bad bow per se, but allocating so much item budget to stam just screams poor design. It's not better than the gladiator ranged weapon for arena and there aren't really encounters in PVE that justify spending that much ilevel on stam.
#1303SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Nightshroud View Post
How was it determined pets can't be the initial target of cave-in? There has been some questions on the Blizzard Hunter forums about this lately. Apparently at least a few raid leaders are forbidding pet use on Gruul because they believe it increases cave-in frequency on the tank and melee folks.

I'm considering putting my pet off in a corner on Stay this week to see if it gets debuffed. Would prefer not to repeat this test if it has been done. Or perhaps the combat log names the initial target? Unfortunately I don't have a log handy to check.
Honestly, I haven't even thought about this in months. It's so well established that pets cannot be targeted by cave-in that I can't remember how it was tested (or who tested it). I realize this is a a poor argument and an utter lack of documentation, but I don't think anyone on these boards has questioned this in ages. I guess it just goes to show how out of the loop the official boards are.

That notwithstanding, the best way I can think of to confirm this would be to get a mod (bigwigs or deadly boss mods would suffice) that announces who the cave-in target is. You will never see a pet targeted by cave-in. Not on Gruul, not by debris on Mag, never. I haven't seen it since 2.1, and I feel that this is pretty well established. However, if you feel the need to test it for yourself, I would recommend that methodology.
#1304SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Daenerys
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
The 't5' bow is the one from Archimonde, as far as I know. It's not a bad bow per se, but allocating so much item budget to stam just screams poor design. It's not better than the gladiator ranged weapon for arena and there aren't really encounters in PVE that justify spending that much ilevel on stam.
The pic in Wowhead has an entirely different model for the Archimonde bow. Perhaps they intended to make the Archimonde bow look like T5 and then scrapped the idea and used the model that wowhead shows.
#1305SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Hevanus
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
You will never see a pet targeted by cave-in. Not on Gruul, not by debris on Mag, never. I haven't seen it since 2.1, and I feel that this is pretty well established. However, if you feel the need to test it for yourself, I would recommend that methodology.
I know that Nightbane's Rain of Bones would frequently target my pet pre-2.1. Has this changed?
#1306SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cranch
Originally Posted by Hevanus View Post
I know that Nightbane's Rain of Bones would frequently target my pet pre-2.1. Has this changed?
Not as of 2.1.2 and last Friday (6/22.) My pet got rained on repeatedly.
#1307SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
I can confirm that, Rain of Bones can hit a pet. However, I haven't seen debris or cave-in hit my pet since 2.1.

As for the 't5' bow, you're correct. I mistook the model. For reference, this is the bow from
Archimonde http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30906
Illidan http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...w_betrayer.jpg

I was unable to find an image of the 't5' bow, but suffice to say it has yet to drop and resembles the t5 gear.
#1308SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2neko
"t5" Bow pic

http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...ons/hunter.jpg
#1309SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Howitzer
For the taming a low level scorpid to get your level 70 with Rank 4 Poison... im having some issues with the instructions given...

if anyone cares to type out a more detailed instruction on how this bug is acheived i would be ever so grateful.
I am not going to dispute the proof that others have posted on the damage potential of the scorpid. I have one myself and have noticed big ticks of 750-800 etc. However, there are a couple of things you should consider when deciding whether or not to stick with a scorpid or a cat/ravager instead... The scorpid needs 5 stacks for max rank, a cat/ravager can burst their damage with bite/claw right off the bat. Scorpids can't dash/dive and get to the mob to dps....slower. Cats/ravagers are much better on trash mobs that don't last as long and in my opinion, are better pets for BM "overall".

This bug you're talking about, isn't really a bug. You can easily achieve this with rank5 poison its just a little harder to keep applied because of the 8 second timer. Keeping claw active while you're keeping your poison up can drain your focus for re-applying so I'd suggest turning it off if you're on a boss. You just pop TBW and trinkets and with that buff you apply the 1st poison, all others after that stack damage high up to the 5th stack, (this has been said several pages back).

This is tonight's WWS DPS Logs with BM spec using a CAT. You can see that there's no shortage of DPS done when not using a scorpid.

Voidreaver kill: 41/20/0 with cat
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...uq&s=4276-4640
1094 DPS

Kael'Thas kill: 41/20/0 with cat
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...uq&s=7974-8976
1214 DPS

Rage Winterchill kill: 41/20/0 with cat
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=12629-12970
1118 DPS

All I'm trying to say is: you don't need to jump on the bandwagon because everyone else is talking about it. Its more important that you know how and when to use your pet and play your character in the encounters you face.

Last edited by Howitzer : 06/28/07 at 3:12 AM.
#1310SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
I gave scorpid a try like a month ago but just didnt like it and switched back to ravager. It was fun for a few nights on some bosses but for some.. total gash.

You can do dps to Morogrim without scorpid too. ^^
http://www.chillend.nl/epeen/Morogrim%2031.5/osse.html

Rarely get a feral druid nowadays as our bear is on a vacation or something so have to roll with SP and x number of hunters in the group, usually two in total. :/

Nice Voidreaver log Howitzer.

Our shamans and shadowpriests kill my pet always so I never get to use t5 set bonus. :|
#1311SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
I wish I could look as good as you with 1200dps
In my old guild I was always "way" top of the charts with over 1000-1200 dps, but the new one "sadly" attracted the best casters of the server and our crazy warlocks keep up 1500-1800dps on some fights like hydross, morogrim or astromancer. I never knew how powerful warlocks really are before I saw these guys...

Edit: nice Morogrim dps, Osse, anything special done?
#1312SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Ishmaael
Cant really imagine taking a scorpid over a cat/ravager. As nice as it might be for say morogrim or mag, i still feel theres enough bosses and extraneous situations which would completely dampen its effect. I know personally my pet does die occasionally on mag, or i am forced to pull it back out of a fire ect. This would severely hinder the stacking would it not? Same with gruul, what happens when a few bad caveins on the melee force you to pull your pet back and you dont have TBW + trinkets to get that huge stack back up. Then theres bosses like hydross and lurker where it would be completely useless. Not to mention my addiction to dash which i consider completely necessary even in pve (situations like dashing your pet from scalding water onto lurker and having it at 400 as i had happen today).

I guess i just feel that id rather go with the all round dps of a cat/ravager and not have some one-trick pony that might take a nose dive. However if i was learning a fight like morogrim and was spending an entire night on it i would consider a scorpid because that particular fight (and obviously a minority of all fights) would play to it's strengths.
#1313SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Balins
Abit off-topic but isnt the halaa guards better to do dmg calculations on than blasted lands mobs or dr boom? If u can avoid getting ganked that is.
#1314SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bhoris
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
Cant really imagine taking a scorpid over a cat/ravager. As nice as it might be for say morogrim or mag, i still feel theres enough bosses and extraneous situations which would completely dampen its effect. I know personally my pet does die occasionally on mag, or i am forced to pull it back out of a fire ect. This would severely hinder the stacking would it not? Same with gruul, what happens when a few bad caveins on the melee force you to pull your pet back and you dont have TBW + trinkets to get that huge stack back up. Then theres bosses like hydross and lurker where it would be completely useless. Not to mention my addiction to dash which i consider completely necessary even in pve (situations like dashing your pet from scalding water onto lurker and having it at 400 as i had happen today).

I guess i just feel that id rather go with the all round dps of a cat/ravager and not have some one-trick pony that might take a nose dive. However if i was learning a fight like morogrim and was spending an entire night on it i would consider a scorpid because that particular fight (and obviously a minority of all fights) would play to it's strengths.
You can easily reposition a pet in a fight, so that's not really an issue. And if you have a SP, throw a mend on the pet and he can easily live through conflag on mag and cave ins until a certain number of growths.

Yall were talking about testing cave ins targeting pets also. When I was marks, I'd keep my pet on stay near the entrance so I could get his focused fire buff, but he died way too quickly attacking. He never got hit by cave in, over 3 or 4 weeks of attempts/kills. I think that's pretty solid enough evidence (this was a while back though and I wasn't actually running a test at the time, so I don't have any documentation on this).

As for the scorpid, it's obviously not the ideal pet for many fights. When its poison cannot be used effectively, it's actually a very bad pet, but when you can stack the poison and sustain it the entire fight, it has the highest dps potential without a doubt.
#1315SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kynes
I really like the dynamic to hunter pets the recent "Scorpid Bandwagon" has provided. It's no longer a simple decision to bring "X" pet because he brings the most damage, end of story. Howitzer is making a very strong point, scorpid is not the be all end all pet just because of the recent attention.

For SSC the scorpid seems to be the clear cut winner for DPS. Lurker/Tidewalker/Fathom Lord all give him enough time to get stacks rolling to outweigh the dmg provided by a cat/ravager. TK I bring a cat because of the mobile fights and immunities from Void Reaver.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned (but might have missed in recent pages) is the synergy of dual scorpids in a raid. The scorpid stacks work exactly like Old mage ignite ticks pre BC. The hunter who applies the first stack will receive all the damage and all subsequent damage after that. The second hunters applications will still refresh the stack but all damage still goes to the first hunter. I raid with another BM hunter who also uses a scorpid. We're able to keep claw active and the stacks up because of the synergy between the two. Sure it is affecting one hunters overall damage but increasing the damage between the two hunters overall.

Overall I love the cat. The look and feel, ability to dash all provide for a more mobile pet that is amazing on trash. But having the option for the scorpid and an actual use for more than one pet is a great dynamic right now. Here's to hoping blizz doesnt nerf it to the ground.
#1316SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I wish I could look as good as you with 1200dps
In my old guild I was always "way" top of the charts with over 1000-1200 dps, but the new one "sadly" attracted the best casters of the server and our crazy warlocks keep up 1500-1800dps on some fights like hydross, morogrim or astromancer. I never knew how powerful warlocks really are before I saw these guys...

Edit: nice Morogrim dps, Osse, anything special done?
Breakerone, all the fights you just mentioned where warlocks are keeping up 1500+ DPS are because they're AOE fights. I'd be surprised if they were doing any less than that. While having to raid without a shadow priest can be painful, it doesn't mean that you can't top the meters without one. It just means it will be more expensive for you to produce the same results. Superior mana oils, mp/5 elixir, and liberal use of Fel Mana potions will be required to replace the benefit of a shadow priest. My suggestion is if you can't get an SP, ask to be with the feral druid. =p
#1317SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bhoris
Originally Posted by Kynes View Post

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned (but might have missed in recent pages) is the synergy of dual scorpids in a raid. The scorpid stacks work exactly like Old mage ignite ticks pre BC. The hunter who applies the first stack will receive all the damage and all subsequent damage after that. The second hunters applications will still refresh the stack but all damage still goes to the first hunter. I raid with another BM hunter who also uses a scorpid. We're able to keep claw active and the stacks up because of the synergy between the two. Sure it is affecting one hunters overall damage but increasing the damage between the two hunters overall.
It's nice to have claw up, but not worth it imo. After seeing my scorpid perform and the dmg a BM hunter can put out, both the other hunters in my guild went BM. I'm running with rank 4 poison, one has rank 5, and one rank 3. The difference actually averages out to be very little between the actual poison they deal, and overall it's a lot more dmg than just renewing one poison tick and keeping up claw.
#1318SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Rokh
I'm still sort of boggled at the conclusion that Cats/Ravagers are better than Windserpents. Is there any reason? Maybe early on, but with higher crit levels, GFtT + Lightning Breath is massive damage, compared to claw/gore + bite.

I leveled a Ravager from 63 to test this all out with my own gear, and was surprised by the results honestly, after reading all the people here that use a Cat/Ravager. I'd really like to see some logs of you guys testing out a Windserpent with your gear.
#1319SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
 Ishmaael
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
ask to be with the feral druid. =p
Agreed, whenever possible I take the group with our 1 enh shammy (only shammy) a feral druid, a warrior and then usually another melee, or one with a shadow priest. The former is more to my liking, as the shadow priests for MOST fights only decrease expenditure of potions, However some fights i find it essential (ones like lurker where the OP boiling water will take your pet down at 750dps).

Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
It's nice to have claw up, but not worth it imo. After seeing my scorpid perform and the dmg a BM hunter can put out, both the other hunters in my guild went BM. I'm running with rank 4 poison, one has rank 5, and one rank 3. The difference actually averages out to be very little between the actual poison they deal, and overall it's a lot more dmg than just renewing one poison tick and keeping up claw.
Without a doubt Bhoris, BM is so far beyond marks for pure maxing dps that its borderline rediculous. And I must also admit i've never really tried the scorpid tactic with anything other than a rank5. While the impressive ticks are ... impressive, at rank5 with 2 points in Animal handler i still found i couldn't reliably keep my original poison tick (the one that...pwns) for longer than 25 or so seconds. And once you lose that initial trinket+ tbw bonus, your left with the option of a poison ticking at 50% of what it should be or waiting for the CD's to come back up and then pulling your pet away to wipe off the debuff and starting it again.

I should test out a rank4 poison next morogrim or one of the other fights it should have an advantage on, but i still feel that for the benefit it might give on certain fights, any fight where theres multi-targeting, bosses changing or sufficient aoe to cause you to have to move your pet away from melee ranged aoe that the scorpid will ultimately come across as lower overall dmg. I hope theres another hunter with a wide range of encounters and the time to spare to test out a scorpid because if it truly is that much better i would love to use one. I guess what im looking for is not in fact a strict comparison of a ravager hitting whatever vs a scorpid hitting the same target to find out which does more, but a more practical view of how often you can fully utilise the scorpid in that way.

Last edited by Ishmaael : 06/28/07 at 11:46 AM.
#1320SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kynes
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
It's nice to have claw up, but not worth it imo. After seeing my scorpid perform and the dmg a BM hunter can put out, both the other hunters in my guild went BM. I'm running with rank 4 poison, one has rank 5, and one rank 3. The difference actually averages out to be very little between the actual poison they deal, and overall it's a lot more dmg than just renewing one poison tick and keeping up claw.
Ahhh thanks for this Bhoris. We meant to test if rank 4/5 carried different stacks but never got around to it. I'll spec rank 5 and drop claw definitely.

I'm still sort of boggled at the conclusion that Cats/Ravagers are better than Windserpents. Is there any reason? Maybe early on, but with higher crit levels, GFtT + Lightning Breath is massive damage, compared to claw/gore + bite.
I recently dumped my wind serp for a scorpid. With the nerf to LB damage and the constant range dancing it was time to let him go. Having your pet out of melee range when you want to KC and the time it takes him to go in and out to cast LB is costing DPS. Since the nerf the damage between claw and LB isn't that far off.
#1321SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Rokh View Post
I'm still sort of boggled at the conclusion that Cats/Ravagers are better than Windserpents. Is there any reason? Maybe early on, but with higher crit levels, GFtT + Lightning Breath is massive damage, compared to claw/gore + bite.
I'd like to echo this question. Right now I bring a serpent to the entirety of SSC/TK and I'm not sure how a Cat or Ravager could really compete. By macro'ing Lightning Breath as opposed to autocasting I can avoid the majority (though not all) of the AI and range issues. Does +3% white damage on a Cat/Ravager really make up for an inferior focus dump?
#1322SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
I'd like to echo this question. Right now I bring a serpent to the entirety of SSC/TK and I'm not sure how a Cat or Ravager could really compete. By macro'ing Lightning Breath as opposed to autocasting I can avoid the majority (though not all) of the AI and range issues. Does +3% white damage on a Cat/Ravager really make up for an inferior focus dump?
I don't think the white damage is the comparison here, really. But, I do think that a combination of Claw and Bite is equal to lightning breath not to mention that LB isn't proccing frenzy or FI.......but claw and bite most definitely do. I wouldn't use a wind serpent for that fact alone.
#1323SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Rokh
Looking through my wws logs, it's really hard to compare two pets from fight to fight, just because things are so different each time, like buffs and group makeup, and timings and other things.. Perhaps I had a bad night or two with my Ravager, I'll try him out again on Gruul and try and mirror an existing wws log of my windserpent for comparison.
#1324SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Nightshroud
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
Yall were talking about testing cave ins targeting pets also. When I was marks, I'd keep my pet on stay near the entrance so I could get his focused fire buff, but he died way too quickly attacking. He never got hit by cave in, over 3 or 4 weeks of attempts/kills. I think that's pretty solid enough evidence (this was a while back though and I wasn't actually running a test at the time, so I don't have any documentation on this).
Good enough for me, thanks.

A previous poster mentioned being able to tell at whom the cave in was targeted with Bigwigs, etc. I gather this either means the combat log will show initial target or Gruul momentarily retargets. Plan to keep on eye out this weekend to see which, just for curiosity's sake.

I've been skipping the use of a boss mod myself because the /rsay prompts have been sufficient and Bigwigs' default setup is extremely spammy on my UI. May have to spend some time configuring it or finding something more conservative.

As for the scorpid, it's obviously not the ideal pet for many fights. When its poison cannot be used effectively, it's actually a very bad pet, but when you can stack the poison and sustain it the entire fight, it has the highest dps potential without a doubt.
I heard a rumor that the poison tick has been fixed to dynamically shift with the pet's current spellpower/wrath status. Not willing to spend the gold respecing from Survival right now to check, so does anyone know?

I wonder if Scorpids will remain popular once this undoubtedly unintended feature is removed. I hope they will at least remain a decent option. More interesting choices with pets is a good thing. Now if they'll just add something for my white Tallstrider....
#1325SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Lysander1
If Scorpid Poison is an unintended feature, would you say the same for a Shaman that pops a big spell trinket to prebuff Earth Shield, and then swaps to more PvP oriented trinket right before the arena starts? Moreover, I think that HoTs and DoTs work similarly - if you cast them with x spelldamage and a spell buff fades, the HoT / DoT continues to tick for the same damage as the initial application. It seems to me that the Poison mechanic is completely intended. The fact that Poison scales at all with spelldamage, however, may be unintended.

And no, the tick does not dynamically change when buffs fade/drop. Still getting some irregular ticks, though.
#1326SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2lilwolfe
Hah! I finally feel like I am starting to fall in line around here. I had a Wind Serpent for a while, and did like the damage it was doing for the most part. In the end, between boredom and the frustration of the range dancing others have mentioned, I went ahead and grabbed a scorpid.

Got a level 69 from Shadowmoon and got him half way levelled when I recalled the need for Rank 4 poison. Went out to Silithus, dismissed my 69, tamed a silithus bug and almost instantly learned rank 4. Abandoned the new/temp pet, returned to stable, shuffled pet slots and called for my Level 69 scorpid. Tada. Trained Rank 4 and we're golden.

Using him on bosses now has been fun. It's like a whole new goal/task to throw into the mix. I -never ever- get good group synergy. (Small raiding pool so hunters are thrown into the spare groups) Usually it's me and the mages, or me and a warlock/mage/hunter group. No drood buffs. No shaman for GoA, no SP. Still, timing lucky procs I get the scorpid to tick around 750. It's nice, especially on things like Tidewalker where he keeps up the dps while I am getting graved and dealing with adds. I can confirm that pets are not causing issues with Gruul or Mag instances. It's really easy to keep them situated. We started working on Void Reaver and ... while I could easily keep him healed with just mend pet, VR is immune.

So, I pulled out my cat for the next attempt, trained him max AR and wow, not a problem at all. The frenzies and FI's really help too, and while I'm not benefitting from group synergy, at least I am offering our mages and casters a boost to their dps.

I think I'll keep my scorpid and my cat, for variety sake. Oh! And I grabbed the addon for tracking the poison stacks, can't wait to try that for tonight!

I think we're going to go mess with Fathom-Lord, any helpful tips out there?
#1327SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Originally Posted by Nightshroud View Post
I heard a rumor that the poison tick has been fixed to dynamically shift with the pet's current spellpower/wrath status. Not willing to spend the gold respecing from Survival right now to check, so does anyone know?
Wow, I didn't hear about this anywhere. Hopefully it isn't true but I wouldn't be surprised, honestly. The past few nights using a scorpid I did notice that I couldn't get a stack up above 550 or so on Vashj phase1. Not sure, maybe they really DID "fix" it. =)

EDIT: I'll admit though, the scorpid does add a fun dynamic to raiding by challenging yourself to keep it up. Its like a mini-mage ignite. =p
#1328SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Although I have an Best Friend 70 scorpid, I am no longer bringing him to raids. For certain fights it can provide a major dps boost (despite getting stoned, it seems to do very well on Gruul), but there is always a single fight (VR or Hydross, typically) where I just can't afford to or don't want to have the loss of dps. I also found that I spent more time focusing on ensuring that my scorpid was keeping stacks up as opposed to maximizing my personal dps. That, coupled with relatively lower FI uptime, just doesn't seem worth it. Yes, it's a nice tool to have, but no, it's not worth the general ease of use of a ravager/cat.
#1329SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Nightshroud
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
If Scorpid Poison is an unintended feature, would you say the same for a Shaman that pops a big spell trinket to prebuff Earth Shield, and then swaps to more PvP oriented trinket right before the arena starts? Moreover, I think that HoTs and DoTs work similarly - if you cast them with x spelldamage and a spell buff fades, the HoT / DoT continues to tick for the same damage as the initial application.
I'll test this on my Priest when I get home. Pretty sure offhand the way it works is that trinketing (or Power Infusion/etc) before applying a DoT or HoT will set it to that strength for full duration.

However, I don't think refreshing SW:Pain after the trinket fades but before Pain drops will allow the big ticks to continue. If this were so, I would expect to see relevant discussion on the Priest forums. Since I've never seen such discussion, I doubt it.

The technical reason probably has to do with a difference between 'one at a time' debuffs and 'stacking' debuffs. In the first case, an instance of a replaced debuff can be removed completely and a new one added. In the second, it looks like the stack counter on the existing instance is incremented and the drop timer reset. To fix -- from my point of view -- the Scorpid Poison mechanics may have a slowing effect on all the other stacking debuffs if they have to save the counter, delete the instance, recalculate current strength, and create a new instance with the proper counter and strength.

Good chance Bliz would like to change this asap, but is being held back by their own design.

....beyond all this. Poison scaling is pretty good even if it stops the Wrath-and-trinket size ticks when those are no longer active. Good enough to appeal to performance tweakers? Unsure. Given the dynamic nature of poison stacks, I'm not inclined to tackle this on a theory basis.
#1330SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kynes
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Although I have an Best Friend 70 scorpid, I am no longer bringing him to raids. For certain fights it can provide a major dps boost (despite getting stoned, it seems to do very well on Gruul), but there is always a single fight (VR or Hydross, typically) where I just can't afford to or don't want to have the loss of dps. I also found that I spent more time focusing on ensuring that my scorpid was keeping stacks up as opposed to maximizing my personal dps. That, coupled with relatively lower FI uptime, just doesn't seem worth it. Yes, it's a nice tool to have, but no, it's not worth the general ease of use of a ravager/cat.

Where are you seeing the huge loss of DPS? With the ability to claw the scorpid can keep the same damage going that a cat/ravager is able to deal (bite's DPS increase is hardly noticable). The overall normal attack damage might be slightly lower but not enough for me to notice. I went back and checked some WWS stats logs and some fights the cat was better, others the scorpid for normal damage. The only major draw back I see for the scorpid is on the very mobile fights like Void reaver. When you have to pull him out and send him back in the loss of dash and the immunity to poison will hurt.

If I am missing something let me know.
#1331SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Nightshroud
Originally Posted by Kynes View Post
Where are you seeing the huge loss of DPS? With the ability to claw the scorpid can keep the same damage going that a cat/ravager is able to deal (bite's DPS increase is hardly noticable). The overall normal attack damage might be slightly lower but not enough for me to notice.
Scorpids have a -7% damage multiplier; Cat/Ravagers a +10%.

It's my understanding this is a multiplier on all damage, similar to Focus Fire or Bestial Wrath. So a Cat with just Claw running vs a Scorpid with just Claw running should do slightly over 18% more damage overall.
#1332SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bhoris
Originally Posted by Nightshroud View Post
I heard a rumor that the poison tick has been fixed to dynamically shift with the pet's current spellpower/wrath status. Not willing to spend the gold respecing from Survival right now to check, so does anyone know?
As of last night (~12 hours ago), nothing has changed with scorpid tick. On Morogrim, had self buffs, 2 FIs, cooldowns, and Tsunami proc and kept up a 715 tick for about 6 minutes.


Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
If Scorpid Poison is an unintended feature, would you say the same for a Shaman that pops a big spell trinket to prebuff Earth Shield, and then swaps to more PvP oriented trinket right before the arena starts? Moreover, I think that HoTs and DoTs work similarly - if you cast them with x spelldamage and a spell buff fades, the HoT / DoT continues to tick for the same damage as the initial application. It seems to me that the Poison mechanic is completely intended. The fact that Poison scales at all with spelldamage, however, may be unintended.

And no, the tick does not dynamically change when buffs fade/drop. Still getting some irregular ticks, though.
I think the difference between your standard dot and scorpid poison is that scorpid is a stacking debuff. If a class has a hot or dot up, it doesn't refresh the old hot/dot, it applies a new one over the previous hot/dot. Scorpid poison's dmg is based on the very first tick, and all subsequent applications are merely refreshing the original tick (after building it up to 5).

I imagine they will eventually "fix" the poison by one of two ways, the first by making each application just act as an independent dot that stacks to five, and each new application will overwrite the oldest application still up. The scecond thing they could do is make the dmg dealt be determined by the pet's spell damage at the time the damage rolls off, so you'd have some large ticks with your cooldowns up, but as they fade, so does the damage on scorpid poison.

That being said, my poison does ~425 dmg at 5 ticks raid buffed with no cooldowns popped, which is still quite good and though i havent' done the math, I think it makes up for the loss of the pet's lower base dmg coefficient.
#1333SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kynes
Originally Posted by Nightshroud View Post
Scorpids have a -7% damage multiplier; Cat/Ravagers a +10%.

It's my understanding this is a multiplier on all damage, similar to Focus Fire or Bestial Wrath. So a Cat with just Claw running vs a Scorpid with just Claw running should do slightly over 18% more damage overall.
Hmmm good point. I am so used to offensive pets I didn't even think of that. I'd like to see some evidence that the damage applies to claw though. Everything i've seen has claw as a static amount of damage. If the damage is only applying to normal attack I don't think the advantage will be monumental or even worth the change.

Here's an example of the lurker fight one with cat the other with the scorpid:

Cat:

http://mtguild.com/wws/1006lurker/kynes.html

Scorpid:

http://lanfiles.williams.edu/~mbobes...lrk/kynes.html

The scorpid damage is higher but landed more hits (228 vs 207). The damage is as close as you can get. Id be more than willing to sacrifice 10k dmg (if that is accurate) on lurker for the use of the scorpid on lurker/fathom/leo.
#1334SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I don't think the white damage is the comparison here, really. But, I do think that a combination of Claw and Bite is equal to lightning breath not to mention that LB isn't proccing frenzy or FI.......but claw and bite most definitely do. I wouldn't use a wind serpent for that fact alone.
I agree. I also would think that a Wind Serpent would be a nicer pet for a SV Hunter with their high Crit providing more focus for LB's.
#1335SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
My primary issues with Scorpid Poison arise from user action. Admittedly, I've only been playing hunter for about 9 months now (and raiding for about 3-4 months) and I still make errors. The rotation still requires some attention and my micro management skills aren't as good as they could (or should) be. If I'm focusing on ensuring my scorpid has the best poison stack up, I often wind up dropping shots (etc), which leads to decreased personal dps.

When I add in the lost uptime on FI and difference in damage modifier, it becomes substantial. As was previously stated, a scorpid is doing 0.93*x damage whereas a cat is doing 1.10*x damage. If x is equal (white dps + claw) the cat is doing 1.10/0.93=1.183 times as much damage as the scorpid (as was stated before - about 18% more - just showing the math). While scorpid poison can more than cover that margin, once accounted for, the compounded effect of increased player error on my part and loss of FI uptime results in scorpid dps being roughly equivalent to cat dps. Given that there are poison immune mobs, it's frequently easier to simply bring the cat and eat the small opportunity cost of potentially higher dps that a scorpid might provide.

I realize that much of that argument hinges on player error (which mostly relates to me), but I feel like there are more than a few hunters who probably make similar errors, making that point somewhat relevant to the topic.
#1336SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Nightshroud
Just posted this on the Bliz forum, and the numbers are from a Survival Hunter's pet. Still, this is relevant to some of the Ravager vs. Cat discussion earlier in this thread:

---

Using Webstats data from last weekend's Gruul kill (four people's combat logs synch'd), I just finished looking at the impact of using a Ravager over a Cat.

Hunter - Survival Spec
Pet - Cat

Hunter+Pet Overall Damage - 270,690
Pet Damage - 55,870 (20.6% of overall)

Pet Damage Breakdown
===================
37,956 Auto Attack
9,625 Claw
8,289 Kill Command

Now for the interesting bit. Claw's tooltip damage-per-hit is 65.0. Gore's is 73.5. Gruul's armor would have an equal effect on both of these so we can factor it out for comparison. Using these ratios we can determine how much damage would have been caused by Gore instead.

9,625 / 65.0 = 148.08
148.08 * 73.5 = 10,884

A 1,259 damage gain. This means pet damage would go up by 2.25%. Overall Hunter+Pet damage would go up by 0.47%.

I may respec Beast Mastery this weekend to compare results.

Last edited by Nightshroud : 06/28/07 at 4:45 PM.
#1337SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Revv
Slight sidetrack, but I believe it's of interest to many here.

I recently specced to BM, and I am trying to figure out how badly I am clipping using WWS.

Basically, I am taking my presence time in seconds, multiplying it by % of presence spent DPSing, and dividing by the number of autoshots.

For example, on a recent Lurker kill (http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4504-5115&a=11), my numbers were like:

Present from 02:55'17 to 03:04'45 (98 %)
DPS time : 7mn (79 % of presence)

116 Auto Shot hits
123 Steady Shot hits

(I almost always have more steady shots than autos, which is what is really concerning me.)

So, I was around for 9m 28s. 79% of that is 449 seconds (7m 29s).

449 seconds / 116 Auto Shots = 3.87 seconds per Auto Shot
Hmm. I am using a 2.9 bow, 15% quiver, and have 5/5 Serpent's Swiftness (2.1 speed bow, hasted).

3.87 - 2.10 = 1.77 seconds wasted, per shot? Yuck. I do play with ~250-300ms lag, but at this point I am stuck. What % of my autoshots am I clipping? Or, how do I interpret this number at all?
#1338SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by Revv View Post
116 Auto Shot hits
123 Steady Shot hits

(I almost always have more steady shots than autos, which is what is really concerning me.)
You are not clipping, you are clobbering auto shots completely. This means you are casting steady shot during the 0.5s cast of auto shot, and getting 2 steadies between some of your autoshots. This means you are doing less damage generally, and using more mana to deal it. A lose-lose situation.
#1339SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Harwin
Originally Posted by Revv View Post
Slight sidetrack, but I believe it's of interest to many here.

I recently specced to BM, and I am trying to figure out how badly I am clipping using WWS.

Basically, I am taking my presence time in seconds, multiplying it by % of presence spent DPSing, and dividing by the number of autoshots.
Just as a note - it takes several seconds of "not dps-ing" for it to turn off the "dps time", so some of that "clipping" is actually time you're just not DPSing but close enough it hasn't turned it off yet.

On WWS you can browse the actual log with times for your autoshots. Find a good stream where you weren't doing avoiding spouts or something and see how many autoshots you got in that time vs. how many you should at ideal. (You'll want to find one where no haste effects proc'd/ended)
#1340SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Zenge
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I gave scorpid a try like a month ago but just didnt like it and switched back to ravager. It was fun for a few nights on some bosses but for some.. total gash.

You can do dps to Morogrim without scorpid too. ^^
http://www.chillend.nl/epeen/Morogrim%2031.5/osse.html

Rarely get a feral druid nowadays as our bear is on a vacation or something so have to roll with SP and x number of hunters in the group, usually two in total. :/

Nice Voidreaver log Howitzer.

Our shamans and shadowpriests kill my pet always so I never get to use t5 set bonus. :|
Dang Osse what was the other hunter in your raid doing you almost tripled his damage......?
#1341SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Bhoris
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
My primary issues with Scorpid Poison arise from user action. Admittedly, I've only been playing hunter for about 9 months now (and raiding for about 3-4 months) and I still make errors. The rotation still requires some attention and my micro management skills aren't as good as they could (or should) be. If I'm focusing on ensuring my scorpid has the best poison stack up, I often wind up dropping shots (etc), which leads to decreased personal dps.

When I add in the lost uptime on FI and difference in damage modifier, it becomes substantial. As was previously stated, a scorpid is doing 0.93*x damage whereas a cat is doing 1.10*x damage. If x is equal (white dps + claw) the cat is doing 1.10/0.93=1.183 times as much damage as the scorpid (as was stated before - about 18% more - just showing the math). While scorpid poison can more than cover that margin, once accounted for, the compounded effect of increased player error on my part and loss of FI uptime results in scorpid dps being roughly equivalent to cat dps. Given that there are poison immune mobs, it's frequently easier to simply bring the cat and eat the small opportunity cost of potentially higher dps that a scorpid might provide.

I realize that much of that argument hinges on player error (which mostly relates to me), but I feel like there are more than a few hunters who probably make similar errors, making that point somewhat relevant to the topic.
I think you're worrying about the tick too much. I start a fight by sending my pet without poison on, and no other focus using abilities, pop my CDs, and start my rotation like normal. I use chasing bars, and just watch them, along with Kharthur's hunter timers up on the side of those. When I see FI pop up or a Tsunami proc, I turn the pet's poison on. At this point, you leave poison on, and don't even look at the tick. ~1.5 minutes later when your trinket/BW are almost up again, look at what the tick's hitting for. If it's at least in the 600s, I just leave it, if it's below that (ie it's fallen off) turn off poison, pop your CDs and apply again once the old poison has ticked off.

When I first started BM, all the micro become a little overwhelming, but you do it some, and it becomes cake. Lol, still have a little problem when I get down to a 1.1 autoshot or so, but I'm working on that also.

Last edited by Bhoris : 06/28/07 at 6:05 PM.
#1342SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Keep in mind that lurker is a fight with a fair amount of movement. If you fire an arcane during movement, that will keep you in the 'dps time' window, making you appear to spend more time firing autos/steadies. Don't be mislead by the time figure; it's handy, but it's not accurate enough for the calculations you're trying to do (I tried the same thing a few weeks back and found out I was spending 4.3s to cast a single auto. Obviously that's not true...).

As for the steady vs auto numbers, Cheeky is right. You're chopping a lot of autos completely (dropping shots), which will have a substantial impact on your dps. It's ok to have more autos than steadies (during movement, it's possible to stutter step and fire autos, but not be able to cast steadies), but having many more steadies than autos is a problem sign. Here's a WWS parse for a Mag kill (in which I stutter step while on cube duty/moving from earthquake)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...6077-6691&a=10
and a Gruul kill from the same night
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...1935-2299&a=10

Generally speaking, you're more likely to drop a steady than an auto. That's typically from movement, although there are other reasons why steadies get dropped. However, more steadies than autos means you're preventing autos from firing (as Cheeky said). I highly recommend you get an autoshot timer, if you don't have one now, in order to get a visual representation of the steady/auto cast interaction.
#1343SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
It should be trivial to write a parser that will give you statistics about shot clobbering and clipping. The results will be a bit off because of flight time but it should let you know if you have any major problems.

If you guys want to attach some combat logs I can take a stab at it.
#1344SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Nightshroud
Originally Posted by Kynes View Post
HI'd like to see some evidence that the damage applies to claw though. Everything i've seen has claw as a static amount of damage.
Just tested this out on some Tram Rats with everything-else-same Scorpid vs. Cat Clawing.

Cat - 74-103
Scorpid - 63-87

Yep, 18% more damage thanks to the -7% to +10% damage multiplier leap.
#1345SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Daxxiz
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
It should be trivial to write a parser that will give you statistics about shot clobbering and clipping. The results will be a bit off because of flight time but it should let you know if you have any major problems.

If you guys want to attach some combat logs I can take a stab at it.
What kind of combat logs are you after? Boss fights, or is a few minutes on Dr Boom ok?
#1346SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Lysander1
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
I think the difference between your standard dot and scorpid poison is that scorpid is a stacking debuff. If a class has a hot or dot up, it doesn't refresh the old hot/dot, it applies a new one over the previous hot/dot. Scorpid poison's dmg is based on the very first tick, and all subsequent applications are merely refreshing the original tick (after building it up to 5).
Lifebloom works in the same way. A druid can pop a +heal trinket, stack Lifebloom to 3, and keep the increased healing for the entire fight as long as he never lets Lifebloom drop off the target. Considering Lifebloom is a pretty integral Druid healing ability, I'd say Blizzard probably sees the "first application detemines full spell bonus" as an intended feature.
#1347SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Beast Mastery in Black Temple

So wow, holy crap. 1st night in BT and we got 3 bosses down.

Naj'entus was a pain in the ASS for BM. This is a HUGE healer fight. I was not a happy camper with Beast Mastery on this guy and the pet can gib really easy. After the kill I went to org to respec MM for the rest of the night.

Supremus, not bad for BM from what I saw of the fight. He was retarded easy and was a kite-fest like Thaladred.

Shade of Akhama
. BM friendly all the way. There was not much issue as long as tanks pickup the adds. However, it was much easier learning a fight with MM theres no question.


So on Shade of Akama we had to go balls out at the end with no threat issues and I was full marksman mind you ...

Shade of Akama Kill - Marksman 10/45/6
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=14626-14679
1381 DPS

I can't begin to tell you how fun Black Temple is so far! It really does feel like Naxx II.
#1348SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Naj'entus was a pain in the ASS for BM. This is a HUGE healer fight. I was not a happy camper with Beast Mastery on this guy and the pet can gib really easy. After the kill I went to org to respec MM for the rest of the night.
I find positioning is very important for this fight. If you can position your pet such that he's not getting AoE'd by the constant splash attacks, he'll live through the whole fight. I didn't have much trouble keeping up damage-wise on this fight as a result. 2-piece tier 5 goes a LONG way in a fight like this.
#1349SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
You're very right about the 2pc bonus. We got him on the 2nd attempt, but the 1st one was just pet-murder due to the water shoots that chain off melee. It just seemed to be more trouble than its worth. 2nd attempt I left him on the side of the wall and just ranged the boss. Not to mention the needle spine explosion was just torture on the pet.
#1350SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
footstab
(As BM spec)
These both give me the almost the exact same stats in AP/Crit.
Only difference is:
Breast plate of rapid striking = 143 HR and 9 more ap.
scaled breastplate of carnage = +30stamina and 8mp5 (HR is down to 123)

which is more valuable? The stam and mp5 or the Hit Rating? Ive read that 136-138 is the best to acheive? I do have a problem with chugging fel mana pots, but the Stamina isn't really an issue, Hit around 11k with raid buffs as it is.

Thank you BM Pros for your input! I read this thread everyday and the information is much appreciated.

Last edited by footstab : 06/29/07 at 3:01 AM.
#1351SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
I just got my second T5 piece yesterday, but had no time to try it out. The other hunter (MM) claimed that he got his second last week and tried if afterwards in a duel and it procced like 2 times in a minute.
I thought I read about a 45% chance. Can someone fill me in, before I get my own tries tonight?
#1352SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kash
read something about 10-15% chance but I could give you a WWS link to a Voidreaver Kill, there you can see how much it healed my pet (though it isn't an intelligent heal)


http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...045-12524&a=12
#1353SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Kash View Post
read something about 10-15% chance but I could give you a WWS link to a Voidreaver Kill, there you can see how much it healed my pet (though it isn't an intelligent heal)


http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...045-12524&a=12
Hm, sad. If I read your WWS correct, your pet healed itself with about every 6th hit, which would come to the percentage you mentioned and yours is a cat or ravager, so you even have a very large advantage in number of hits compared to my wind serpent. Might really be the final reason now to let it go

Really sad, I had my hopes up for 45% as mention on thott, but this "value" thing was unclear from the beginning...
#1354SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Krypt
For me the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness is getting ever closer. Equip: Your Steady Shot has a 15% chance to grant you 275 attack power for 8 seconds. At first glace this looks quite amazing, however I'm beginning to wonder how it compares to the Tsunami Talisman, or even Dragonspine.

The thing I'm most worried about is a long hidden CD. Which wouldnt suprise me looking at the imba nature of most other classes trinkets. Any one else have thoughts on this?
#1355SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Maa
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
For me the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness is getting ever closer. Equip: Your Steady Shot has a 15% chance to grant you 275 attack power for 8 seconds. At first glace this looks quite amazing, however I'm beginning to wonder how it compares to the Tsunami Talisman, or even Dragonspine.

The thing I'm most worried about is a long hidden CD. Which wouldnt suprise me looking at the imba nature of most other classes trinkets. Any one else have thoughts on this?
This have been already discuised here.

And I can tell you it doesn't have hidden CD, it can proc while the proc is still active.
#1356SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
This is a link to where discussion regarding the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness starts. Click me.
#1357SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Krypt
Thanks Lactose, ou saved me some time there. Been following this thread since start must havve missed them pages.

Its nice to now it has no hidden GCD, i assume it stacks? A flat 220 AP boost is extremly nice, im still embarrasingly using Drakefang, through lack of +hit gear ithats dropped - even thinking about resocketing some + hit/agi. Maa, on your armoury your using bloodlust still, I assume this is for more control over scorpid stacks. (was impressed with your uptime on Illidan, with a non to shabby 663)

This trinket looks nice for me with Barrel-Blade, and its extremly fast speeds with BM.
#1358SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
Its nice to now it has no hidden GCD, i assume it stacks?
A proc while the proc is active simply refreshes the timer.
#1359SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Trohck
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Hm, sad. If I read your WWS correct, your pet healed itself with about every 6th hit, which would come to the percentage you mentioned and yours is a cat or ravager, so you even have a very large advantage in number of hits compared to my wind serpent.
Can anyone confirm that 2pc Tier 5 procs off special attacks? Is Lightning Breath an exception? When I first got it I tested it for a while and never had a proc off of LB.

With that said, 15% proc rate is consistent with my experience, though this is a "gut feel" and comparing multiple WWS's will yield better results.

Note that a BM pet is going to attack at 0.89s speed most of the time, so even at a 15% proc rate with just normal attacks:

178 to 192 = 185 average hp healed per proc
1/.89 = 1.12 attacks per second.
Proc rate * health per proc * attacks per second = .15 * 1.12 * 185

2pc Tier 5 = 31 hp per second for your pet

Pretty awesome! On Naj'entus this averages out to ~1800hp healed between tidal shields. As a hunter in my guild said: "Tier 5 was made for BM hunters". The 4-piece bonus is also awesome for us.
#1360SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Rexpop
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
You are not clipping, you are clobbering auto shots completely. This means you are casting steady shot during the 0.5s cast of auto shot, and getting 2 steadies between some of your autoshots. This means you are doing less damage generally, and using more mana to deal it. A lose-lose situation.
While clipping could also be the cause, its also possible to end up with more Steady Shots fired than Auto Shots if the mob you are fighting dies after the Steady Shot hits, but before the Auto fires/hits. If this happens enough then the number of Steady Shots fired will slowly creep ahead of the auto shots, especially if the macro you are using uses Steady Shot to trigger the Auto Shot.
#1361SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
While that's true, you'd have to consistently have that phenomenon happen to establish a margin of 7 steadies more than autos. Lurker has adds, but not so many that you should be seeing that kind of margin (especially with a 2.1 attack speed - there's simply not that much deadtime in which you'd fire a steady but not an auto before a death - 0.6s window minus latency and reaction time before the steady fires).
#1362SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
It should be trivial to write a parser that will give you statistics about shot clobbering and clipping. The results will be a bit off because of flight time but it should let you know if you have any major problems.

If you guys want to attach some combat logs I can take a stab at it.
Welshy was kind enough to send me a combat log and I put together a quick parser. His log was about 15MB but I'm able to parse it in just a couple seconds. It should provide some insight into how you are managing your rotations, if you are clobbering/clipping shots and outputs some other misc stats.

This is the output from his log:

Auto shots: 1412
Average auto shot: 715.7854107648725
Auto shot damage: 1010689
Steady shots: 1258
Average steady shot: 730.2321144674086
Steady shot damage: 918632
Multi shots: 45
Average multi shot: 911.1333333333333
Multi shot damage: 41001
Arcane shots: 126
Average arcane shot: 813.5396825396825
Arcane shot damage: 102506
Average time between auto shots: 2181 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1297 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 3422 ms
Times exceeded 3500 ms between auto shots: 258
Times targets switched: 99
Back to back auto shots: 236
Back to back steady shots: 82
To run it (you must have java installed):

1) Extract LogParser.jar from the zip I'm attaching
2) Drop LogParser.jar in your log directory or wherever you have a WoWCombatLog.txt
3) Double click LogParser.jar

Edit: A few notes
For the autoshot calculations:
-I keep track of your target, if your target changes between two auto shots I disregard that time difference.

-I set a maximum delay between auto shots to 3.5 seconds. Anything greater than this delay is discarded since that falls outside the range of weapon speeds and a back to back steady. If you try really hard you could have auto shots further than 3.5 seconds apart in a rotation but you would have to be screwing it up pretty bad

Edit 2: I updated the zip to include the source if anyone wants to play with it

Edit 3: Couple of fixes so it doesn't break on Dr. Boom or misses

Edit 4: Displays results in a simple window so you don't have to run it from the command line
Attached Files
File Type: zip LogParser.zip (7.8 KB, 423 views)

Last edited by Glaurong : 06/30/07 at 3:16 PM.
#1363SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
The Iron Colonel
First of all, thanks Glau for putting together a parser in timely fashion. Much appreciated!
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Auto shots: 1412
Average auto shot: 715.7854107648725
Auto shot damage: 1010689
Steady shots: 1258
Average steady shot: 730.2321144674086
Steady shot damage: 918632
Multi shots: 45
Average multi shot: 911.1333333333333
Multi shot damage: 41001
Arcane shots: 126
Average arcane shot: 813.5396825396825
Arcane shot damage: 102506
Average time between auto shots: 2181 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1297 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 3422 ms
Times exceeded 3500 ms between auto shots: 258
Times targets switched: 99
Back to back auto shots: 236
Back to back steady shots: 82
Note: this is the same log as http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=p4bh6vrkbyoxa&a=11 , in case anyone wants to cross reference. Some of the numbers disagree (number of shots and average shot damage appear to be different), but I'm sure Glau can shed more light on that.

Emphasis mine. I'll start by just asking some questions (perhaps of interest only to me, it's my log) that might be confusing to others. How am I getting 258 autoshots with time between autoshots if my max time is 3.4 seconds? Also, if I have 82 back to back steady shots, how is my max time between autos 3.4 seconds (should be at least 2 times my attack speed of 2.1). edit: answered my question. You may want to reconsider ignoring shots with more than 3.5 seconds in between - this might shed light on how many shots get dropped. I'm unclear on the methodology and what exactly the numbers mean, so I'm asking. Undoubtedly I'm dropping and clipping shots, but I want to figure out exactly what the report is telling me so I can improve.

Again, thanks for another tool, Glau. Hopefully we can all make good use of this.

[edit 2]: bah, what am I thinking, it's 2*steady cast, which is 2*1.08=2.16. Some days math is hard, Barbie. However, it occurs to me that the log I sent you was from Void reaver and TK trash, in which I frequently have to move while keeping the same target due to either LoS or Deadzoned (in those stupidly small hallways) or to avoid Arcane Orbs. I have some suggestions as to ways to improve the parser, but I'll PM you about those.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 06/29/07 at 6:09 PM. Reason: I'm a gigantic moron
#1364SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
I had to pick an arbitrary number to cut out time spent moving or doing anything besides standing still and banging out your rotation. 3.5 seconds might not be the right number for this but it's easily changeable.

The 258 shots that exceed the 3.5 second max I set is just a number I have in there for a sanity check. Shots will end up here when you are moving, probably if you spend time mending your pet or if you are badly clobbering your autos. If this number is too high the maximum time between shots you want the parser to consider needs to be raised.

The maximum time listed is the maximum time between shots that falls under the absolute maximum. In practice this number isn't really useful because there is undoubtedly a time when you move from one target to another with the same name and take a few seconds (or a similar event). From the parser's point of view they are just auto shots that are really far apart.

I only include auto shots that are closer than the absolute cutoff of 3.5 second in the back to back auto shot number.

As far as the discrepancy between your log an WWS I can't explain that. I take any line that starts with one of the following strings:

"Your Auto"
"Your Steady"
"Your Multi"
"Your Arcane"

They get included in the shot count, overall damage, and average damage stats.
#1365SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Thanks for the answers - I admit I had an initial moment of panic when I was looking at the numbers and saying "holy hell, I'm terrible at my rotation and didn't even know it," so my initial post probably makes less sense than it could (or should). However, when you put it in context the results make more sense. As for WWS, I'm unsure why it's different, but I'm not going to worry about it. I'm using your tool for timing information, which it seems to do very well at.
#1366SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
I updated the original post with a new jar.

[Hunter] Beast Mastery Bible

I changed the max time between autos to consider to 4 seconds. A bit better outlier if you consider the case where you fire an auto shot, wait till it is casting, then clobber that cast with your steady. You will end up with auto shot - 0.5 + steady delay.

At the suggestion of Welshy, it also generates a LogParserDetails.txt file as well that looks something like this:

0	0
100	0
200	0
300	0
400	0
500	0
600	0
700	0
800	0
900	0
1000	0
1100	0
1200	0
1300	3
1400	7
1500	17
1600	11
1700	8
1800	3
1900	45
2000	211
2100	293
2200	207
2300	60
2400	11
2500	37
2600	62
2700	42
2800	8
2900	4
3000	6
3100	9
3200	6
3300	4
3400	1
3500	3
3600	5
3700	0
3800	6
3900	1
You can paste that into excel and generate graphs if you wish. I've attached an example.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg auto graph.JPG (44.9 KB, 41 views)
#1367SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Couple of notes on that distribution: It's slightly bimodal. The x-axis is in 100 ms intervals (so 1/10th of a second). You see the second, smaller clumping around 0.5s after the first - this probably reflects me inserting kill commands prior to auto shots, and delaying them. Of course, I can't be certain, but it seems like a reasonable guess. Much to my relief, most of the auto shots fall around the 2.1 second mark, which is my hasted speed. I clip more than a few by a bit, but by and large (much to my relief) it appears I'm not clobbering the majority of my shots.

Thanks again to Glaurong, again he provides a great tool to the community.
#1368SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bikiniwax
So something unexpected last night happened while downing Mag. I was grouped with a Shadow Priest, Shaman, Lock and a Mage. There was only 1 Pally in the entire raid so both my Scorpid and I had Might. I was sitting at approx. +2100 RAP, +27ish Crit at the time.

Anyways my Scorpid was doing 820 damage/tick and at about 27% Mag turned and 1-shotted him. I did not expect that! I did quickly res'd my Scorpid and carried on although scorpid poison ticks did drop to about 600ish for the remainder of the fight.

Any ideas why my Scorpid was targeted by Mag? Growl was off. Could poison cause that much threat? I don't remember seeing my scorpid at the top of the damage meters at all.

It was quite funny in vent at the time.
#1369SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
820 damage a tick. 410 TPS Assume 100 dps from auto attacks + kill command + claw ( I turn claw on and off every 4 seconds personally. Auto claw on, scorpid Poison cooldown comes up turn it off, back on after SP applies itself) That is 510 TPS. Now on banished phases your pets TPS goes up alot relative to the tanks, but tanks should be able to outdo 510 TPS.
#1370SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
Can anyone confirm that 2pc Tier 5 procs off special attacks? Is Lightning Breath an exception? When I first got it I tested it for a while and never had a proc off of LB.

With that said, 15% proc rate is consistent with my experience, though this is a "gut feel" and comparing multiple WWS's will yield better results.

Note that a BM pet is going to attack at 0.89s speed most of the time, so even at a 15% proc rate with just normal attacks:

178 to 192 = 185 average hp healed per proc
1/.89 = 1.12 attacks per second.
Proc rate * health per proc * attacks per second = .15 * 1.12 * 185

2pc Tier 5 = 31 hp per second for your pet

Pretty awesome! On Naj'entus this averages out to ~1800hp healed between tidal shields. As a hunter in my guild said: "Tier 5 was made for BM hunters". The 4-piece bonus is also awesome for us.
If it really doesnt proc on anything but white melee damage, then its actually almost a 30% chance, looking at his log and at my own testings today, cause I also cant find a single proc directly after LB, but that might be different for claw and bite.

In any case its quite nice, sadly in no way removing the need for constant mending in difficult fights.
#1371SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Here is a Void Reaver kill where my pet was attacking the boss for the entire duration of the fight w/o a death.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4276-4640&a=53

The 2pc T5 bonus in the DPS time of: 5mn procced 76 times and healed for a total of 15,538 health. Thats like 30 something pet mend ticks. Its definitely a great set bonus especially for BM hunters.
#1372SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
820 damage a tick. 410 TPS Assume 100 dps from auto attacks + kill command + claw ( I turn claw on and off every 4 seconds personally. Auto claw on, scorpid Poison cooldown comes up turn it off, back on after SP applies itself) That is 510 TPS. Now on banished phases your pets TPS goes up alot relative to the tanks, but tanks should be able to outdo 510 TPS.
I have Claw turned off when Scorpid Poison is ticking.
#1373SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Serpica
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I updated the original post with a new jar.

[Hunter] Beast Mastery Bible

I changed the max time between autos to consider to 4 seconds. A bit better outlier if you consider the case where you fire an auto shot, wait till it is casting, then clobber that cast with your steady. You will end up with auto shot - 0.5 + steady delay.

At the suggestion of Welshy, it also generates a LogParserDetails.txt file as well that looks something like this:
Glau,

I hate to sound like Java noob, but I downloaded your jar and I haven't been able to figure out how to run it. I have Sun Java on my system and I can bring up the console through IE 7by selecting Tools, Sun Java Console, but it doesn't look like that's what I need since I don't get a command line.
#1374SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Glau,

I hate to sound like Java noob, but I downloaded your jar and I haven't been able to figure out how to run it. I have Sun Java on my system and I can bring up the console through IE 7by selecting Tools, Sun Java Console, but it doesn't look like that's what I need since I don't get a command line.
I changed it to display the results in a simple window, all you have to do now is drop the jar in the same directory as your WoWCombatLog.txt and double click the jar.

I updated the original post: [Hunter] Beast Mastery Bible
Attached Images
File Type: jpg parser.jpg (35.4 KB, 42 views)
#1375SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
I have Claw turned off when Scorpid Poison is ticking.

Well then you have even less TPS on your pet then the tank. Though you should practice using claw with SP. With Steadyshot and KC macroable to 2 button presses that you spam (some use one button press but that often throws the KC after the steady before the auto delaying it, i use 2 macros one auto/steady the other auto/KC/Steady so that i don't delay auto's.) there isn't much to be paying attention to, so i turn claw on autocast every 3 seconds and then off just for as long as it takes for SP to cast. If that SP is missed/dodged etc then i keep claw off for the second time to app SP.
#1376SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ato
Glau,

that parser you made looks like a bloody interesting tool....if I could get it to work :/

I'm a complete computer n00b, so you'll have to bear with me.

I ran a quick Dr Boom test by using the ingame command /combatlog

I then closed the WoW client completely, and copied the parser file to the Logs directory that contained the WoWCombatLog.txt file. I double clicked the parser file and it gave me the following:

Auto shots: 0
Average auto shot: NaN
Auto shot damage: 0
Steady shots: 0
Average steady shot: NaN
Steady shot damage: 0
Multi shots: 0
Average multi shot: NaN
Multi shot damage: 0
Arcane shots: 0
Average arcane shot: NaN
Arcane shot damage: 0
Average time between auto shots: 0 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 9223372036854775807 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: -9223372036854775808 ms
Times exceeded 4000 ms between auto shots: 0
Times targets switched: 0
Back to back auto shots: 0
Back to back steady shots: 0

The txt file it generated was just filled with a single row of zeros.

What am I doing wrong?
#1377SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Sheshini
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
You are not clipping, you are clobbering auto shots completely. This means you are casting steady shot during the 0.5s cast of auto shot, and getting 2 steadies between some of your autoshots. This means you are doing less damage generally, and using more mana to deal it. A lose-lose situation.
I have been bm for a month. Occasionally breaking the 1k barrier but most of the time managing only 800+ dps.

I do have this problem as well of using steadyshot first then auto when I move and attack.

A few questions to you guys out there. I want to break the 1k barrier more often and need some help. I have 130 hit rating 1920 att powr with hawks and 27% crit unbuffed.

So the general rule of thumb for high dps is always wait for a auto to fire off then steady shot when u start the rotation?

How about if I use a special(arcane/multi) first followed by auto -> steady?

And do you guys change your rotation when Bestial wrath + rapidfire + trinkets are on?

Kill commands. I have not seen much of them on the wws reports from osse or howitzer. Is it good to thread it when Bestial wrath + rapidfire + trinkets are on?

My WWS on a recent void reaver kill Wow Web Stats

Comments are much appreciated thank you.

Last edited by Sheshini : 08/15/07 at 1:14 PM.
#1378SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Sorry to ask this again, but I tried to find it through the search and couldnt.
I was looking again for that old castsequence macro, which gives you a full rotation. Something along the line of:
/castsequence Multi Shot(Rank 6), Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Auto Shot, Arcane Shot(rank 9), Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Auto Shot, Steady Shot(Rank 1), Auto Shot

But this posted macro doesnt work and I cant tell why.
#1379SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Tromal
It seems that you forgot a "-"

/castsequence reset=10 Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
#1380SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sympa
Originally Posted by Tromal View Post
It seems that you forgot a "-"

/castsequence reset=10 Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
if you really need a macro to do all your shots for you just go bm where your rotation is steady auto and kc whenever its up.
#1381SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Sympa View Post
if you really need a macro to do all your shots for you just go bm where your rotation is steady auto and kc whenever its up.
Its not really for me, I am BM anyway and dont need multi shots and I also dont have problems to weave my shots. Its for a new guildie, who just doesnt seem capable of doing what you tell him, so his last chance would be a macro like that...

The one from Tromal seems to work btw. Thanks a lot.
#1382SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
Sometimes my mana is limited if I'm in a group with feral druid and or a shaman instead of SP.

Sometimes SP dies during the fight.

I dont really use fel mana pots anymore as the rest dps is usually so far behind, especially hunters. It's just not worth farming those mats to get 40-60 dps more from extra kill commands I could do during the fight.

So basically.. I just do auto and steady most of the time unless I have SP who can actually stay alive. :p

If they make a group of four hunters and feral druid on something like Morogrim I would use fel mana pots.... :p
#1383SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kenoki
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
You are not clipping, you are clobbering auto shots completely. This means you are casting steady shot during the 0.5s cast of auto shot, and getting 2 steadies between some of your autoshots. This means you are doing less damage generally, and using more mana to deal it. A lose-lose situation.

I just think he forgot to count the crits he did in this lurker kill.
In reality he did 163 autoshots and 160 steady shots, add to that 11 arcane shot while running/swimming.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4504-5115&a=11
#1384SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Tyrae
With the topic at hand seeming to be shot rotations again I was wondering if I could get some of yer feed back.

As my guild moves deeper and deeper into Black Temple I'm really looking to get every last D out of my DPS. I have been playing around with different trinket combos and shot rotations on Dr Boom and in live raids. What shows as the best on DR Boom just isn't showing it in BT and Hyja in my eyes.

My Armory: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...rithos&n=Tyrae

I tend to find myself in groups with shadow priests, and pot often so mana is very rarely an issue. I use Flasks of RA for most fights, but if mana is an issue I use Fel Str. and Mage Blood elixirs. I also tend to eat ravager dogs for most fight but have AGI food, and elixirs as well as mana regen food in my bags for any special occasions.

I have been using the blessings deck, and Talon of Al'ar with a shot rotation Arcane, auto, steady, auto, steady, auto, repeat hitting KC when its up. Using the Al'ar trinket to buff the 2 woven steadys has worked well for me and I tend to top meters on fights here I don't find myself kiting and such.

Now I have heard many people saying a very simple auto/steady only rotation is currently the bst dps for us. So I gave it a shot the other night, swapped out the Al'ar trinket for the Bloodlust Brooch and kept my Blessings Card on. I just felt like I wasn't doing as much DPS as the other hunter in our raid who uses no real rotation and just hits arcane and multi shots when ever they are up.

If any one has a second or 2, can can share some feedback for toping out my dps i would really appreciate it, thanks guys.
#1385SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Tyrae View Post
Now I have heard many people saying a very simple auto/steady only rotation is currently the bst dps for us.
Do your Steady Shots do more damage than your Arcane Shots and Multi-Shots (on average)?
In my opinion: Most likely, no they don't.

Is your rotation balanced to perfectly suit your exact Steady Shot casting time, latency and reaction time, or would you somehow fire less Auto Shots / specials if you substituted Steady Shot for another special now and again?
In my opinion: Most likely, no it isn't. If it were, any haste proc would mess up your rotation greatly. Also, it's just unlikely all in all.

In other words:
Post-mitigation, there's a very high chance of other specials doing more damage than your Steady Shots. Additionally, in most cases, you'll keep up the same amount (or even a greater amount) of specials / Auto Shots by using e.g. Arcane Shot.

Keeping the above in mind, pure Auto Shot / Steady Shot is never the best DPS.
It is, however, pretty competetive, and much more mana efficient, often making such a rotation easier to maintain, resulting in a higher total damage with mana starvation. It's also easier to handle 1 special than 2-3 different, with conflicting cooldowns, interference with Auto Shots, etc.

In a simplistic way of thinking, I see BM as 1 special, 1 Auto - giving priority to the highest (average) damaging one when it's available, going down the list when they're on cooldown (or would otherwise hamper Auto Shots).
Likewise, I see MM / Survival as ~1.5 special, 1 Auto.
#1386SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Osse
I finally got a Crystalweave cloak, will do some long WWS logs after the raid.

EDIT: Actually I'll leave the tests for tomorrow.

Last edited by Osse : 07/01/07 at 6:41 PM.
#1387SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Tyrae
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Do your Steady Shots do more damage than your Arcane Shots and Multi-Shots (on average)?
In my opinion: Most likely, no they don't.

Is your rotation balanced to perfectly suit your exact Steady Shot casting time, latency and reaction time, or would you somehow fire less Auto Shots / specials if you substituted Steady Shot for another special now and again?
In my opinion: Most likely, no it isn't. If it were, any haste proc would mess up your rotation greatly. Also, it's just unlikely all in all.

In other words:
Post-mitigation, there's a very high chance of other specials doing more damage than your Steady Shots. Additionally, in most cases, you'll keep up the same amount (or even a greater amount) of specials / Auto Shots by using e.g. Arcane Shot.

Keeping the above in mind, pure Auto Shot / Steady Shot is never the best DPS.
It is, however, pretty competetive, and much more mana efficient, often making such a rotation easier to maintain, resulting in a higher total damage with mana starvation. It's also easier to handle 1 special than 2-3 different, with conflicting cooldowns, interference with Auto Shots, etc.

In a simplistic way of thinking, I see BM as 1 special, 1 Auto - giving priority to the highest (average) damaging one when it's available, going down the list when they're on cooldown (or would otherwise hamper Auto Shots).
Likewise, I see MM / Survival as ~1.5 special, 1 Auto.


Yah man, thats basicly what I have been doing, just was affraid I had missed some magic DPS break through with this auto/steady only roation and wanted to see what the deal was.
#1388SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
So something unexpected last night happened while downing Mag. I was grouped with a Shadow Priest, Shaman, Lock and a Mage. There was only 1 Pally in the entire raid so both my Scorpid and I had Might. I was sitting at approx. +2100 RAP, +27ish Crit at the time.

Anyways my Scorpid was doing 820 damage/tick and at about 27% Mag turned and 1-shotted him. I did not expect that! I did quickly res'd my Scorpid and carried on although scorpid poison ticks did drop to about 600ish for the remainder of the fight.

Any ideas why my Scorpid was targeted by Mag? Growl was off. Could poison cause that much threat? I don't remember seeing my scorpid at the top of the damage meters at all.

It was quite funny in vent at the time.

Here is my WWS for the Mag fight. http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...ly&s=6395-7194

Still not sure why, but Mag turned and 1-shotted my Scorpid at around 28% if I recall. This is the 3rd time that the guild had downed Mag. I was on cube duty, which was the farthest cube from Mag.
#1389SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Ato View Post
What am I doing wrong?
Not sure, maybe something modifying the format of your output log? Do your lines look like:

6/29 15:37:05.781  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 438.
I just ran it against a log with a Dr. Boom run and got valid results:

Auto shots: 80
Average auto shot: 564.725
Auto shot damage: 45178
Steady shots: 79
Average steady shot: 582.5696202531645
Steady shot damage: 46023
Multi shots: 0
Average multi shot: NaN
Multi shot damage: 0
Arcane shots: 0
Average arcane shot: NaN
Arcane shot damage: 0
Average time between auto shots: 1790 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1484 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 2125 ms
Times exceeded 4000 ms between auto shots: 2
Times targets switched: 1
Back to back auto shots: 0
Back to back steady shots: 0
#1390SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
BM Tempest Keep raiding tips:

Couple of things I wanted to note here for BM hunters recently respecced or heading into TK for the first time. I think there are some things I've learned on the various bosses and on trash that might help you up your DPS by quite a bit through the avoidance of unnecessary pet deaths, etc.

Void Reaver

Be in a shadow priest group, watch your pet HOT durations and make sure its up because periodic damage will stay up there for the duration of the fight.

Al'ar

The pet can be used during all of phase 1 without too much worry except when you notice quills are about to happen. If you don't move your pet off the platform and to the middle your pet will die. If you are on add-duty you can easily use your pet but always make sure you pull him out just before the phoenix dies or your pet will lose about 1/2 its HP with max-rank avoidance. Also be weary of the flame wreaths in phase 2. I recommend keeping your pet on Al'ar while you dps the adds. Keeping the pet on Al'ar gives longer dps time than being on the adds which die quickly and require travel time to move from 1 to the other.

Astromancer

Your pet CAN and WILL get the debuff. You need to be damn sure you're always watching to see if your pet gets it so you can move away or go to the arcane soakers if you use that strategy. Pets get targeted for arcane missiles by astromancer. If this happens you're probably not going to be able to save your pet unless you've trained max rank AResist. Other than these 2 problems, BM really tears the living shit out of Astromancer.

KT Trash

KT trash can and is a pain in the ass mainly because of Centurion whirlwinds. You "can" use your pet on these guys but only if you have your finger on the passive key for your pet to pull him back when you see a spin. Also, do not use your pet on the Battle mages. If you do, you're probably going to get your pet frost shocked for 22,000 damage or so.

Kael'Thas

Phase 1:

Thaladred: Use your pet at your own risk. I've had attempts where I've used the pet on him while he ran around after people without an issue. I've had attempts where he's gibbed the pet faster than Oprah Winfrey eating a twinkie. Its a gamble.

Sanguinar: Feel free to use your pet just make sure the tank is facing the opposite direction.

Astromancer Capernian: You cannot use your pet whatsoever on this add so don't even think about it. Keep yourself at range and C'thun style spacing between other players.

Engineer Telonicus:

This fight will go similar to sanguinar assuming your tank is skilled enough to make sure the ENG doesn't bomb the people attacking from behind.

Phase 2:

You have to position yourself on the platform or off to the side right before Telonicus dies to make sure you don't get the raid multi-shotted by the bow add. Your pet should not be near you during this because you'll be tanking the bow. Put your BM pet on the Staff add and forget about him. He'll proc FI for you and do his own thing while you finish off the bow. If you're using an AOE strat for the adds then be careful on your pets health as it might get cleaved.

Phase 3:

Same rules as phase 1

Phase 4:

I have had somewhat of a difficult time with this while using my pet because Hunters seem to generally be on Pheonix duty here making sure they're kited and away from the raid. Control and precision is key here and keeping your pet on KT while you deal with the phoenix spawns can prove deadly for the pet.

Phase 5:

All out dps on KT with your pet on him just keep a HOT up if something happens. Generally speaking if you get to phase 5 the fight is pretty much won.

Anyways, I hope some of these things I've learned through trial and error help.

Trying Void Reaver tonight or the first time. I assume max Arcane Resist on my pet?
#1391SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ato
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Not sure, maybe something modifying the format of your output log? Do your lines look like:

6/29 15:37:05.781  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 438.
Yeah, the lines in the log look exactly like that :/

Not sure what would be modifying it otherwise.
#1392SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Try deleting the contents of the file and start a new log. You only need a 5-10 second test to see whether or not that resolved the problem.
#1393SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Bhoris
So I was looking at my WWS for Morogrim last night and noticed something that is a little disturbing to me. The log records the fight at 8 minutes, which is about right, but I noticed my auto shots seemed low (not in quality but quantity) for that long of a fight.

Here is my log for reference: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=qw2g3qcj4hfig&a=0 (and wtb stronger shadow priest/undead BM hunter/shaman/feral druid in my group please =D)

So I calculated the exact time of the fight by taking my dps, multiplying that by 60, and then dividing this number into my overall dmg output. The total time of the fight was 8.64 minutes. Multiply that by 60, divide by 2.1 (my auto shot timer), and I should be at ~247 auto shots. My actual number of auto shots were 164.

Now, this really worried me. Taking that same length of the fight, multiplying it by 60, and dividing my my number of auto shots, I see that I was averaging an auto shot once every 3.16 seconds.

For comparison, I looked at Osse's log he posted last week (http://www.chillend.nl/epeen/Morogrim%2031.5/osse.html) and realized he was having the same issue. His fight lasted 7.72 minutes, he had 143 auto shots, should have had around 221 auto shots, and he averaged an auto shot every 3.24 seconds.

Granted, you will lose a couple auto shots off the bat waiting a few seconds for aggro. In both reports, we got graved, so that's around 20 seconds or so lost (max 10 auto shots). There will also be a limited amount of clipping on steadies (I have a total of about .7 seconds clipped every 10 seconds of my cycle). Still, the deficit between time in combat and amount of shots actually fired seems low to me. There really isn't enough moving around or extraneous factors here that I can see that would cause these results.


NVM all that math above^^. Forgot to count crits in. They show up right on Osse's, but doesn't really display right on mine for some reason.

Last edited by Bhoris : 07/02/07 at 11:08 AM.
#1394SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
I lose a few auto shots when I tab to multi-shot murlocs and tab back too fast, probably.

10-15 to watery grave

Some to dodge the bubbles.

Aggro at start + what I lose due to a few FD's.

Rest just simply because of lag or GCD to refresh HM, /shrug.

WTB Patchwerk hehe.
#1395SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ammonra
While we are discussing shot rotations, I had a question for those better at huntering than I. Why do so many of you forego Multi-shot (and some even Arcane Shot) for pure Steady/Auto/KC rotations? Is it purely a mana issue?

I am my guild's only raiding hunter, and I am BM. We run 2-3 Shadow Priests usually and unless all but 1 of them is not in the raid (which is maybe 1% of the time) I am in a Shadow Priest group with a lock and some mages as an FI bitch. Since I can count the number of bosses I have had to pop a mana pot in recent memory, is there a valid reason why I should not be using Multi and Acrane? When I stop using them (SPriest dies, only 1 online for raid, etc) I see my dps dip significantly.
#1396SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Enova
Not necessarily a mana issue; while it's true that these shots cost extra mana, that you may want to spend on something else, you can choose to use them, for extra dps, or hold back on them for more efficiency.

However, there's also the issue of haste and attack speed. This is visble for beasmastery specs, where the 'Cobra Reflexes' talent makes your autoshot cycle 20% faster in addition to the quiver bonus. So, there's little to no time left for a second special before the autoshot cycle resets.

For more details, there's a topic on rotations that you can check out

[Hunter] Shot Rotation Illustrated
#1397SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bhoris
Originally Posted by Ammonra View Post
While we are discussing shot rotations, I had a question for those better at huntering than I. Why do so many of you forego Multi-shot (and some even Arcane Shot) for pure Steady/Auto/KC rotations? Is it purely a mana issue?

I am my guild's only raiding hunter, and I am BM. We run 2-3 Shadow Priests usually and unless all but 1 of them is not in the raid (which is maybe 1% of the time) I am in a Shadow Priest group with a lock and some mages as an FI bitch. Since I can count the number of bosses I have had to pop a mana pot in recent memory, is there a valid reason why I should not be using Multi and Acrane? When I stop using them (SPriest dies, only 1 online for raid, etc) I see my dps dip significantly.
This was discussed pretty recently in this thread, but yes, it is a mana issue. If you do not have to worry about mana, multi will always do more dmg than steady (as long as you don't have 3k ap and 5% crit or some horrible itemization like that) and arcane will usually do more than steady (unless it's an extremely low armor target). There are also issues of working around several shot cooldowns as opposed to just using one shot. All in all though, if you have the mana, use arcane and multi, the dps is worth it.

However, there's also the issue of haste and attack speed. This is visble for beasmastery specs, where the 'Cobra Reflexes' talent makes your autoshot cycle 20% faster in addition to the quiver bonus. So, there's little to no time left for a second special before the autoshot cycle resets.
Serpent's Swiftness , and still, generally speaking even if you only get off one mult or one arcane shot in place of the steady, it will do more dmg than the steady.
#1398SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ato
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Try deleting the contents of the file and start a new log. You only need a 5-10 second test to see whether or not that resolved the problem.
Yeah, it was a new log. I always delete or rename and move my old logs to another folder.

I tried again tonight with a fresh Karazhan log and same results as my above post.

Apparently my Java is the most updated and recommended one too.

Dont know why it wont work :/
#1399SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Bhoris View Post
So I calculated the exact time of the fight by taking my dps, multiplying that by 60, and then dividing this number into my overall dmg output. The total time of the fight was 8.64 minutes. Multiply that by 60, divide by 2.1 (my auto shot timer), and I should be at ~247 auto shots. My actual number of auto shots were 164.
Your problem is easy to solve
In fact you had 215 Autoshots. WWS log started to hide the number of crits at one point of the development by default, and you had 51 crits. You just need to click on config and mark the checkbox.
Apart from that I'd say the other missing shots are gone thanks to watery grave, which really takes you out of the fight for quite some time.
#1400SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
Crystalweave



Vengeance Wrap



Guess I'll try the cloak again with 3.0 speed weapon as it seems to clip my steady shots with 2.9 speed weapon. Probably lost 2-3 dps on Crystalweave test as I had to wait 10 secs in the end for BW and trinket to come off CD as I forgot to use them for 10 secs when they first cooled up. (hard to explain)

Anyone else with 3.0 speed weapon feel free to test the cloak. :p
#1401SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Osse
Lol, funny that. Serpent Spine Bow dropped and I got it, will do tests after raid... I guess.
#1402SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2valkrin
Off the subject a little but I had a few quick questions Id like to ask. Previously I was a Survival hunter as you can tell by my gear and such. I got to reading over BM and it was obvious, BM does more dps.

armory- http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...rigg&n=Valkrin


My questions are...Are my gems ok for BM? Should I try for a few more AP gems and such? And previously i would use Elixir of Major Agility + Elixir of Draenic Wisdom. Should i go for the flask or an onslaught w/ the draenic? As you can see my hp/mana pool is a bit low so the draenic wisdom might be what I have to use for now. Anyways, any input would be great.

-Valkrin
#1403SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Serpica
Check out the spreadsheet thread and run the comparisons. They'll really help you fine tune your gear, talents, and gems.
#1404SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bhoris
Originally Posted by valkrin View Post
Off the subject a little but I had a few quick questions Id like to ask. Previously I was a Survival hunter as you can tell by my gear and such. I got to reading over BM and it was obvious, BM does more dps.

armory- http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...rigg&n=Valkrin


My questions are...Are my gems ok for BM? Should I try for a few more AP gems and such? And previously i would use Elixir of Major Agility + Elixir of Draenic Wisdom. Should i go for the flask or an onslaught w/ the draenic? As you can see my hp/mana pool is a bit low so the draenic wisdom might be what I have to use for now. Anyways, any input would be great.

-Valkrin
Your gems are fine for BM. If you look at most BM hunters, you'll see there's a general consensus that 8 agi is greater than or equal to 16 ap gems. Crit is always good also. The one thing you might want to focus on first is getting your hit up some. Another 15 or 20 should do it (you can go higher, but you'll start hitting DR and each hit rating becomes less and less worthwhile).

A while back, I took the Hunter AEP stats and adjusted them for my spec when I was still marks. I adjusted them again for BM when I respecced. The numbers I use are in terms of straight dps increase using a full rotation.


Adjusted for talents:
1 crit rating = .3536 DPS
1 agility (on ap & crit) = .37 DPS
1 AP = .175 DPS
1 hit rating = .381 DPS (again, I'd say aim for around 115)

These may not be precise, but I find them to be pretty accurate.
#1405SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2valkrin
Yeah I have the pants off of Kazzak, ups my bow skill rating by 16. So wouldnt that = more than 16 hit?
#1406SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Lodi
The only downside to agi over ap is that your pet's growl, and your melee, is weaker. Other than that, almost nobody is so poorly geared that they should prefer 2*ap to 1*agi (even deep Marks).
#1407SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sheshini
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
In a simplistic way of thinking, I see BM as 1 special, 1 Auto - giving priority to the highest (average) damaging one when it's available, going down the list when they're on cooldown (or would otherwise hamper Auto Shots).
Likewise, I see MM / Survival as ~1.5 special, 1 Auto.
O yes thank u very much. SInce most of the time im paired up with shadow priests, ill be changing my shot rotations to 1 special 1 auto. Thank you.
#1408SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
Originally Posted by valkrin View Post
Off the subject a little but I had a few quick questions Id like to ask. Previously I was a Survival hunter as you can tell by my gear and such. I got to reading over BM and it was obvious, BM does more dps.

armory- http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...rigg&n=Valkrin


My questions are...Are my gems ok for BM? Should I try for a few more AP gems and such? And previously i would use Elixir of Major Agility + Elixir of Draenic Wisdom. Should i go for the flask or an onslaught w/ the draenic? As you can see my hp/mana pool is a bit low so the draenic wisdom might be what I have to use for now. Anyways, any input would be great.

-Valkrin
Major agil. and mageblood is what i use.

Draenic wisdom is 30 int, thats 450 mana. Spirit should almost never be in play as you should never stop casting.

If the fight is over 2.5 minutes major mageblood will give more mana then draenic wisdom.

Draenic wisdom helps with AotV, but AotH is a huge dps increase so AotV should be avoided if possible (especially if specced IAotH)
#1409SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bladesong
I appologize if this has been asked and answered previously, I try to read every post in this thread but if I'm away a few days they start to pile up and I miss a few.

Ever since the change to Kill Command, I've been trying to work it in to a macro. When I say macro, I don't mean an auto/steady macro, I do all that by hand, but a macro that combines steady and KC.

The best I've come up with so far is:
#showtooltip
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot

the trouble with this is times where my pet is out of range after a crit (mob/player runs away or blinks, pet is rooted, etc.), KC is ready to cast, my pet is on the target, so the macro hangs and waits for the pet to get in range before allowing another steady shot.

I've also tried:

#showtooltip
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command

#showtooltip
/cast Steady Shot
/cast Kill Command

and at the suggestion of another hunter:
#showtooltip
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command

The trouble with all 3 of these is that KC just doesn't cast now. It could be that I'm not mashing my button enough, but I'd prefer to keep it that way. Since autoshot isn't part of my macro, mashing the key not only shortens the life of my keyboard :P but also clips/overrides auto.


Now the question, has anyone found a proper way of wording their macro so that KC will happen if the pet has a target AND is in range, and combining it with steady shot (much like the first macro I posted)?


Thanks for reading.
#1410SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Bikiniwax
As a BM Hunter, I use:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I have heard of conflicting reports about the 3rd line "/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command" - some saying that all this is not necessary or redundant however it works for me. (It ensures that your macro won't hang or you won't waste mana on a KC if your pet is dead, not summoned or does not have a target).

I know it's no quite the same as yours because you don't have Autoshot in your macro, however I experience the same problem if the pet's target gets out of range (e.g. pet is Ice Nova'd in place, etc.).

If you find a way around this, let me know. Thankfully, this doesn't happen *too* often.

Last edited by Bikiniwax : 07/03/07 at 2:10 PM.
#1411SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2zaxon
Originally Posted by valkrin View Post
Yeah I have the pants off of Kazzak, ups my bow skill rating by 16. So wouldnt that = more than 16 hit?
From my own experience, I can say that the weapon skill rating is worth at least 18 hit rating.
#1412SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Magicme
Is Kill Command even worth using? I find that when I use it in my macro, from time to time it will delay one of my Shots slightly. It also has low DPM when compared with Steady (75 mana for ~200-300 damage vs 99 mana for ~600-700 damage).

I generally use this line in my macro:
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

I did find a work around for the delay, which was making two macros:

/castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot

/castsequence Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Command, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot

When one of your shots crits, change from the first macro to the second, and Arcane / KC will go off with no delay, and then you switch back and fourth depending on whether or not your shots crit / Arcane is up.

However, this way of doing it seemed to bite into my mana pool quite quickly, and got rather tedious.

I don't think the extra ~50 DPS it provides worth the chance to delay another shot slightly, and cut down our already low mana pool. It's easily manageable on the shorter fights, but I doubt it would be worth using the mana on it during the longer ones.

Although I haven't much experience in 25mans, do you guys who are up there find yourself using KC a lot?

Last edited by Magicme : 07/04/07 at 12:39 AM.
#1413SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ishmaael
One of the telling reasons I believe CR is way > than HR, is that based on a 1-roll system a hit cannot crit. IE. over 1000 shots, 1% hit will cause an increase of 10 hits, NONE of which crit. wheras 1% crit over 1000 shots would increase the amount of crits by 10%. Meaning the 1% hit rating gave less than a 1% dmg increase, compared to the crit ratings 1.3% (mortal shots) +hourglass / Gftt.

Edit: sry this was a response i wrote earlier but my net died.
#1414SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Xantcha
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
One of the telling reasons I believe CR is way > than HR, is that based on a 1-roll system a hit cannot crit. IE. over 1000 shots, 1% hit will cause an increase of 10 hits, NONE of which crit. wheras 1% crit over 1000 shots would increase the amount of crits by 10%. Meaning the 1% hit rating gave less than a 1% dmg increase, compared to the crit ratings 1.3% (mortal shots) +hourglass / Gftt.

Edit: sry this was a response i wrote earlier but my net died.
Except you can't compare 1% hit to 1% crit because they are not equal.

1% hit rating is significantly less expensive item-budget wise compared to 1% crit.

15.8 hr = 1% hit
22.1 cr = 1% crit

1% crit =~ 1.4% hit, easily trumping mortal shots.
#1415SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
In response to magicme, i currently use 2 things for KC depending on how much mana i have availible. (ie, can we keep up JoW? Shadow priest? Farm fight where i dont wana pop potions vs progress where i down them on cooldown?)

One is sorta like you, i have a steady/auto macro, then i manually do arcaneshot / KC as a replacement for steady when KC pops. I also have my on use trinkets bound to arcane shot.

The other one is two macros one is the normal auto/steady macro, the other goes auto/kill command/steadyshot using /castsequence. I believe KC delays the auto when it is used in the .5second primer time for the auto before it goes off. Due to this going auto/steady/KC/auto would cause a delay, however KC doesnt delay steadyshot so going auto/KC/steady/auto creates no downtime.

Auto/steady --> crit --> spam Auto/KC/Steady --> as steady is being cast spam auto/steady again.
#1416SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2dR. dEVICE
haste

dont know if this has been covered, but i got a dragonspine trophy tonight, my bm hunter friend said it would suck for a bm hunter. cause cliping of autoshots with the kc macro we use. does haste actually work that way or wouldnt it make the rotation just go faster. the reason i took it is all the t6 hunter gear has haste on it. it seams like a godly stat for a hunter.

also should i keep abacus of violent odds or go with the crit on bladefist breath.

any help would be apreciated.
#1417SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Magicme
Hmm I hadn't thought about putting it before Steady, cheers, I will add that macro to my list

Yeah I do the same thing, on farm fights where I don't want to spend money, I will completely skip KC, but I will switch to my lil two macro's and mp5 pots if it means downing a new boss.
#1418SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Dr. Device, if you know your shit and can handle the speed of the shots having a good pc and latency then what the hell, go for it. I'd use bladefist if you have a dragonspine trophy. T6 and other off-set items have passive haste on hunter mail in Hyjal and BT and honestly I can't wait until the stuff starts dropping more often. (been unlucky so far) Haste is full of win for all classes. With our class, as long as you can stay a little above the GBC you're golden.
#1419SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ladwenae
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Haste is full of win for all classes. With our class, as long as you can stay a little above the GBC you're golden.
Gotta say I disagree 100%, because hunters have way to many issues when it comes to haste for it to be a valuable stat.
Yes in a perfect world with 100% accurate shot execution and 0 lag we will gain from it as well, but as long as you dont have a 100% execution and lag then we get into the situation where especially for BM with SS it gets hard to avoid clipping issues, and its just plain wrong that we have skills like rapid fire that basicly looses all its gain the more worn haste you stack on your toon.
WTB new shot mechanics FTW
And for non BM the only way you really gain from getting a lot of haste is that you get to the point where you wont use two specials between auto's in your rotation and use a rotation similar to BM instead, in this situation its more optimal but its still utterly broken if you as me.
Ohh and then haste also means that the more you get the slower weapon you want, and its not like Blizz have added a lot of options in regards to this either.
#1420SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Djinn
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
Gotta say I disagree 100%, because hunters have way to many issues when it comes to haste for it to be a valuable stat.
Yes in a perfect world with 100% accurate shot execution and 0 lag we will gain from it as well, but as long as you dont have a 100% execution and lag then we get into the situation where especially for BM with SS it gets hard to avoid clipping issues, and its just plain wrong that we have skills like rapid fire that basicly looses all its gain the more worn haste you stack on your toon.
WTB new shot mechanics FTW
And for non BM the only way you really gain from getting a lot of haste is that you get to the point where you wont use two specials between auto's in your rotation and use a rotation similar to BM instead, in this situation its more optimal but its still utterly broken if you as me.
Ohh and then haste also means that the more you get the slower weapon you want, and its not like Blizz have added a lot of options in regards to this either.
I have 3 haste items, its still possible for me to do rotations w/o clipping shots. I also don't use a steady/auto macro and weave shots w/o a problem.


I would have to agree its still the best stat a hunter can get, to a degree.
#1421SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ladwenae
Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
I have 3 haste items, its still possible for me to do rotations w/o clipping shots. I also don't use a steady/auto macro and weave shots w/o a problem.


I would have to agree its still the best stat a hunter can get, to a degree.
Dont you think its plain wrong that they start putting haste on so many items that if you pick up more than a few you suddenly come to a point where first rapid fire is useless, then come to a point where IAotH is useless and finally if you stack enough you might even come to the point where adding another item with haste will gain you nothing? ( I dont think its possible to get that much haste yet, but I still think its a stupid design seen in regards to how our mechanics are )

Haste is not bad as such, haste is just not working properly for hunters and they really need to fix our mechanics if they want haste to be a valid item stat imho.
#1422SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Ladwenae
Osse jumped my mail box after the first post here and wanted me to post a couple parses he made with Crystalweave: http://www.tinyurl.com/2l76as
And Vengeance Wrap: http://www.tinyurl.com/3c3x2m
From this I would say that allready with 1 haste item a 2.9 weapon starts getting clipping issues.

Last edited by Ladwenae : 07/04/07 at 6:10 AM.
#1423SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Djinn
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
Osse jumped my mail box after the first post here and wanted me to post a couple parses he made with Crystalweave: http://http://www.lossendil.com/wws/...gqnluih4uq&a=2
And Vengeance Wrap: http://http://www.lossendil.com/wws/...dmdsswzrvk&a=0
From this I would say that allready with 1 haste item a 2.9 weapon starts getting clipping issues.
Chances are its Human error that he is clipping not because of 1 haste item.
#1424SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Belzi.ET
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
One of the telling reasons I believe CR is way > than HR, is that based on a 1-roll system a hit cannot crit. IE. over 1000 shots, 1% hit will cause an increase of 10 hits, NONE of which crit. wheras 1% crit over 1000 shots would increase the amount of crits by 10%. Meaning the 1% hit rating gave less than a 1% dmg increase, compared to the crit ratings 1.3% (mortal shots) +hourglass / Gftt.

Edit: sry this was a response i wrote earlier but my net died.
The thing about crit is unfortunately wrong.
The more crit you have, the less is the effect of the next % crit.

Let me show you a small calculation.
Example hunter doesn't miss at all (to make the calculation easier and easier to understand).
Example hunter got 15% crit and adds 1% more

DMG before:
85 (non-crits) * 1 (normal shot-dmg) + 15 (crit) * 2.3 (crits with skilled mortal shots) = 119.5 DMG

DMG with new gear and an additional % crit:
84 * 1 + 16 * 2.3 = 120.8

Most people will think with the additional crit (and mortal shots) the total damage will increase by 1.3%. But if you compare the 2 values, you see that example hunter only gains 1.0878% additional damage...


Now let's take a look at another example hunter with 25% crit (skilled mortal shots) and without any misses.He receives loot for an additional % crit too.

DMG before:
75 * 1 + 25 * 2.3 = 132.5

DMG with new gear:
74 * 1 + 26 * 2.3 = 133.8

His additional 1% crit brings him a total of 0.981% damage.


Crit is kind of a stupid PvE-stat. An amount of about 20-25% crit is way enough. At least for BM and MM hunters.


so long
*crit is way overrated* - Belzi
#1425SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
Osse jumped my mail box after the first post here and wanted me to post a couple parses he made with Crystalweave: http://www.tinyurl.com/2l76as
And Vengeance Wrap: http://www.tinyurl.com/3c3x2m
From this I would say that allready with 1 haste item a 2.9 weapon starts getting clipping issues.
Its not really possible to see if he is clipping out of a wws log, because even if you find spots where 2 autoshots have more space between them then expected, you still dont know the reason. Best chances to prove that is looking at big trouble timers ingame, while I would even claim that they are not 100% accurate as well.

But its really obvious that a 2-3% haste will NOT make a 2.9 speed weapon clip/clobber, because it doesnt even bring the speed down to a regular 2.8 weapon as a BM.

Maybe Osse only wanted to show that the gain itself is not really worth mentioning, but then again it IS a gain, and thats what its all about.
#1426SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
The thing about crit is unfortunately wrong.
The more crit you have, the less is the effect of the next % crit.

Let me show you a small calculation.
Example hunter doesn't miss at all (to make the calculation easier and easier to understand).
Example hunter got 15% crit and adds 1% more

DMG before:
85 (non-crits) * 1 (normal shot-dmg) + 15 (crit) * 2.3 (crits with skilled mortal shots) = 119.5 DMG

DMG with new gear and an additional % crit:
84 * 1 + 16 * 2.3 = 120.8

Most people will think with the additional crit (and mortal shots) the total damage will increase by 1.3%. But if you compare the 2 values, you see that example hunter only gains 1.0878% additional damage...


Now let's take a look at another example hunter with 25% crit (skilled mortal shots) and without any misses.He receives loot for an additional % crit too.

DMG before:
75 * 1 + 25 * 2.3 = 132.5

DMG with new gear:
74 * 1 + 26 * 2.3 = 133.8

His additional 1% crit brings him a total of 0.981% damage.


Crit is kind of a stupid PvE-stat. An amount of about 20-25% crit is way enough. At least for BM and MM hunters.


so long
*crit is way overrated* - Belzi

You are right about that and you can sure call it diminishing returns, but while I also agree that you should cap out hit first, to be fair you need to add a bit more value to crit.
(actually, to be correct on that part, if you are somewhat above 33% crit the 16 Ap gems start to be worth more then the 8agi gems again if you purely look at your own steady/auto rotation)

more crit = more GftT
1 crit = 1 Lightning Breath or similar
1 crit = 1 Kill command
more Kill command = more frenzy and inspiration (helps if you dont have claw/bite)
more crit can trigger various trinkets
#1427SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
Crit is kind of a stupid PvE-stat.
<snip>
*crit is way overrated*
Such sweeping and generalized statements are stupid.
Crit is not a stupid stat for PvE - it scales with RAP, ability bonus damage, etc, as well as having other benefits [EDIT: As mentioned in the above post]. Yes, Hit is awesome when you don't have enough of it, once your Hit is good enough, though, it provides no additional benefit.
Crit always provides a pretty decent boost.

If there's a question about two items, with e.g Hit and Crit respectively, just input them in a spreadsheet, and you'll get a pretty clear picture of which one is the better choice.
#1428SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Ishmaael
I agree with Djinn. Being someone who was slightly further in progression than me but seemed to understand a lot about itemisation and stat values I checked his setup rather frequently to see what the outlook was like for future items. And while I do not have any of the t6~ passive haste gear (and do not like my crystalweave cloak) I do use a dragonspine and, while I agree it might be slightly better for some melee, it is simply amazing for a hunter as well. I can full-well perceive taking it all the way to BT, and even using it over some of the other great t5 trinkets (such as the al'ar trinket, and possibly even tsunami talisman.)

And to the earlier reply to my comment on HR vs CR. I was well aware of the coefficient at which HR turns into Hit %. However it didn't change my opinion on the two as stats.
#1429SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Moridin
if 11 haste rating is about 1% speed, and as such in theory 1% damage to auto and steady, would it be correct to say it's almost twice as valuable per rating point as crit/hit for a BM hunter that doesnt do much other personal damage? (here ignoring clipping issues etc)
#1430SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Zurgat
Originally Posted by Moridin View Post
if 11 haste rating is about 1% speed, and as such in theory 1% damage to auto and steady, would it be correct to say it's almost twice as valuable per rating point as crit/hit for a BM hunter that doesnt do much other personal damage? (here ignoring clipping issues etc)
Haste decreases your autoshot times and reduces your steadyshot cast time, but since you still have to deal with a global cooldown of 1.5 seconds, and a 0.5 sec autoshot timer, the fastest that you could shoot would be near 2 seconds. (Serpent's Swiftness in combination with a good quiver gets you there pretty easiiy)
So, in theory haste will do barely anything at all for a good BM hunter.

Have a play with : Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development
Try and swap 1 of those trinkets with a Dragonspine trophy, rather than what i'd initially expected, it actually "decreases" dps.
(ofcourse its very possible that the spreadsheet is wrong though, but you get the idea)

Last edited by Zurgat : 07/04/07 at 9:40 AM.
#1431SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Rexpop
Originally Posted by Bladesong View Post
Now the question, has anyone found a proper way of wording their macro so that KC will happen if the pet has a target AND is in range, and combining it with steady shot (much like the first macro I posted)?
This is the macro I use (and I can't take credit for it as I picked it up off the WOW forums). It's so far the only way I've found to trigger Steady Shot and Kill Command with a single button press. It has its flaws which I'll go into later, but I find it easier to use than button mashing or mouse wheel spinning.

#show Steady Shot
/stopcasting
/castrandom [combat,pet,target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/stopcasting
/cast Steady Shot
Kill Command gets triggered each pass if available, and even though you've "shut off"* auto shot using 'stopcasting', casting Steady Shot will turn it back on and the Auto Shot will fire right after the Steady (assuming your timing is right). If you use Quartz you can still see the Auto Shot timer.

The flaws are this. If you hit the button again before the auto shot that automatically follows the steady shot then you will clobber your auto-shot as you will set up the next steady shot, so you have to get your timing right. Takes a little while to get used to, but once you are its very easy to avoid doing this. You know when you've clobbered the shot if Quartz doesn't display the timer.

The other flaw is if you go OOM and press the button it shuts off the Auto Shot but because you don't have enough mana to cast Steady Shot, the auto shot doesn't get turned back on. Again its something that you can avoid if you are paying attention.

Like I said at the start this probably won't work for everybody, and it does have its flaws but it works well for my playstyle. Using this I usually end up at around 750-1000 combined pet/hunter dps depending on the fight using the Kharazan gear I have.

Anyway hope this helps.
#1432SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Midnight
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Haste decreases your autoshot times and reduces your steadyshot cast time, but since you still have to deal with a global cooldown of 1.5 seconds, and a 0.5 sec autoshot timer, the fastest that you could shoot would be near 2 seconds. (...)
This is not entirely true. Autoshots can be cast even during GCD. So actually in theory it would be possible to go down to 1.5 sec autoshots without clipping. So if your weapon has an attackspeed of 2.3 sec or higher and you have enough haste to bring it down to 1.5 sec than your steady shot casttime will be short enough to allow for an unclipped autoshot.
#1433SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Zurgat
Originally Posted by Midnight View Post
This is not entirely true. Autoshots can be cast even during GCD. So actually in theory it would be possible to go down to 1.5 sec autoshots without clipping. So if your weapon has an attackspeed of 2.3 sec or higher and you have enough haste to bring it down to 1.5 sec than your steady shot casttime will be short enough to allow for an unclipped autoshot.
True, you're right.
My alt has 1.88 attack speed currently, and with lag + human reaction times i can just about manage to keep the steady + autoshot rotation going at its limit. Even so, my castbar addon still reports the occassional +0.1 / +0.2 delay on my autoshot, i dont think extra haste would improve my damage much.

Last edited by Zurgat : 07/04/07 at 10:20 AM.
#1434SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Kaubel
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
so long
*crit is way overrated* - Belzi
I guess you didn't see this part when you read the rules before posting:
Don't sign your freaking posts. - We know who you are, so stop it.
#1435SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Have a play with : Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development
Try and swap 1 of those trinkets with a Dragonspine trophy, rather than what i'd initially expected, it actually "decreases" dps.
(ofcourse its very possible that the spreadsheet is wrong though, but you get the idea)
I haven't modeled the haste benefit of the Dragonspine Trophy yet, so all you see is the +40 AP gain, which isn't much for a trinket.
#1436SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Moridin
Wasnt there something beyond just Heroism and that racial that reduced gcd? Guess I might remember wrong, then yeah, you'd be in trouble pretty fast even with one of the 3.0 bows once you started including cd abilities/procs.
#1437SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Belzi.ET
Sorry for my first post in this topic being a little offending.
I just saw many hunters praying on crit (Marksman with 1700 AP and crit between 25% - 30%).
Crit isn't useless in PvE, that's right. The more AP you have, the better scales crit. But this is also vis versa (more crit, better scales AP).
In the end there should be a reasonable ratio. To point on one of those stats is the wrong way imho.


About the haste-rating.
As long as the casttime of steady shot + 0.5 sec for the hidden auto shot-casttime + 0.2 for lag is less than the auto attack-speed, haste has a usefull effect.
The more you optimize this idea, the less effect you will gain from IAotH or rapid fire. In extremum both of these 2 effects will destroy your rotations.

I took a brief look on a german item-site (http://www.blasc.de) and found about 4 pieces of mail with haste and 1 ring.
In total this would be 168 haste-rating (roughly about 15% haste).

I'm not sure about the consequence of quiver and serpent swiftness to the casttime of steady shot. I read various statements, but most of them say that both effect casttime.
Based on this steady casttime will come to about 0.92 sec.
If we add the hidden casttime of auto shot and a small time for lag and human reaction, the auto attack-speed should not become lesser than 1.8.
To break down attack-speed on 1.8 with haste, serpent swiftness and quiver the base attack-speed of the weapon should be 2.9 (becomes a 1.78 attack-speed) or 3.0 (becomes 1.84).

This is just an idea and I'm not sure about every fact or formula (always stated). And as stated above IAotH and rapid fire will become problem-generators.

The question now is:
- Is it possible to get to a steady-casttime of 1 sec and an auto attack-speed of about 1.8 at the same time? (both times are an example to show the ratio)
- Is the rotation worth it? Or would other items without haste bring you more?
#1438SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ascoline
@Zurgat

actually, as BM hast is quite valuable. As some other posters already wrote, stacking haste until you get down to some 1.4 - 1.5 seks of Autoshot is probably a good idea if you a are using a very mana efficient pure auto-steady rotation only.
Consider a hasted attackspeed of 1.5 for a base speed weapon of 2.9. Then the haste factor would have to be 93%.. which in special situations can be reached by quick shots+trophy+rapid fire... In such a case, a steady shot need only some 0.8 secs to fire, which means you have more then enough time for the 0.5 sec casting time of the autoshot. GCD finishes some 0.1 secs after your autoshot and you can cast the next steady shot...

Considering the Trophy, I think it is the most powerful trinket I ever had.
My own tests showed a PPM of close to 1 for non hasted auto shot attacks without quiver, i.e. for a 2.9 bow you need some 21 shots until it procs, statistically.
Quiver and serpents swiftness + specials allow you to shoot some ~55 shots per Minute thus increasing the PPM to 55/21= 2.6! I never experienced a that high PPM, but on longer fights its close or above 2 (when I was BM..) which means that you shoot for some 20 seks per minute 30% faster. With a pure auto-steady rotation you will not clip autoshots..
Bonus effects are: more crits per time = more focus (not really an issue for BM Pets)
more autoshots per time = more quick shots = more autoshots = more trophy proc = and so on...
#1439SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Midnight
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
(...)I'm not sure about the consequence of quiver and serpent swiftness to the casttime of steady shot. I read various statements, but most of them say that both effect casttime.
They do.
The question now is:
- Is it possible to get to a steady-casttime of 1 sec and an auto attack-speed of about 1.8 at the same time? (both times are an example to show the ratio)
- Is the rotation worth it? Or would other items without haste bring you more?
Unless you use a very fast weapon by the time your auto shot reaches the speed of 1.8s or even faster your steady shot will be faster than 1s by a good margin.

IMHO haste procs works better for BM pure auto-steady rotations because unlike with marks and surv I don´t have to change the rotation from 1.5 special per auto to 1 special per auto and back again on the fly which seemed to cause more trouble than help for me. If I could get weapon speed down to ~2 sec or faster as marksman with static haste items that´d certainly be tempting.
#1440SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Vitaro
A hunter "War Story" regarding how latency can affect our dps; might be interesting/useful for some:

I am currently in Tokyo, Japan for business, and in the late evenings I like to sit down and play a bit of WoW (I merely have time for one simple instance runs basically). I used to be an active raider pre-TBC (read: pre-new job) so I like to keep track of things on EJ, and make sure I max out my casual gear to the best of my abilities.

Soon after arriving in Tokyo a few weeks back, I specced BM and started using the 'amazing' macro that supposively would boost my DPS through the roof. Sure enough, it made farming a lot easier as I only have to press one button repeatedly now until mob X is dead.

However, in instance groups I noticed that I kept on being 3rd on the DPS meter, which for a BM hunter, as I keep reading, isn't all that good. The real shock & horror only happened when I was playing against a completely undergeared hunter alt... and that alt ended up surpassing me in the damage meters (if ever so slighty) on a full Shadow Labs clear.

After some theorycrafting with my fellow hunters (my guild is at Kael now; I'm a mere casual) we came to the conclusion that my latency was actually too high to use the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle -- and after doing some Dr. Boom tests with BigTrouble enabled, it became clear that with my 500ms+ latency Steady Shot was delaying each and every Auto-Shot with 0.2~0.5 seconds.

So I did some calculations to see what speed might be ideal for my kind of delay (taking the high-end delay of 0.5 seconds as a base). The result? I needed a ranged weapon with a base speed of 3.4....

... a cookie to the hunter who will guess what weapon I ended up dusting off, and now gives me a 25% DPS increase? (Hint: It's like TBC never happened)


I'd like to go off on a rant on how retarded this latency-dependacy is, but I find it just too amusing that I'm forced to use the exact same weapon that was the ultimate weapon pre-TBC due to Aimed Shot rotations.

Last edited by Vitaro : 07/05/07 at 11:13 AM.
#1441SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Onaga
Vita is the laughing stock of the guild atm, but his story is a true one.

sorry for the off topic post that doesnt add anything to the conversation, but i just had to.

now on topic, his dps was almost 75k below the other hunter in that run which is indeed the alt of one of our warriors, Vita is a very skilled hunter and thus we were asking ourselves how it could be, turns out a certain xbow with 3.4 speed was ideal even though it's nearly 20 dps below his wolfslayer rifle.
#1442SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Howitzer
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Its not really possible to see if he is clipping out of a wws log, because even if you find spots where 2 autoshots have more space between them then expected, you still dont know the reason. Best chances to prove that is looking at big trouble timers ingame, while I would even claim that they are not 100% accurate as well.

But its really obvious that a 2-3% haste will NOT make a 2.9 speed weapon clip/clobber, because it doesnt even bring the speed down to a regular 2.8 weapon as a BM.

Maybe Osse only wanted to show that the gain itself is not really worth mentioning, but then again it IS a gain, and thats what its all about.
I have haste gloves from BT that brought my 2.9 spd bow + quiver + haste item + serpent's swiftness down to 2.03 spd. I could still handle 1-2 more haste items and not clip shots. However, with RF+IAoTH proc I could start seeing clips. Anyway, you all should know that nothing boosts your damage more than fitting in more shots rather than the same old shots just hitting a little harder. Some of you may disagree due to PC/Lag issues and for all of those folks, I can understand saying: "haste isn't good for Hunters". But for the rest of you, go get it!

I won't use my haste items until I can find something truly more valuable to break 5% crit to SS from 4pcT5.

Last edited by Howitzer : 07/05/07 at 3:27 PM.
#1443SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2svengarlic
I've noticed a lot of arguments in the hunter threads about whether hit rating or crit rating is better. This seems like a really silly argument to me. It reminds me of a hunter I used to raid with who would never take the upgrades I advised him to take, because he was an "attack power hunter". If you want to figure out what gear to take, you need to understand how hit, crit, ap, agility, haste, mp5, and any procs affect your DPS, then compare two or more pieces of gear based on a combination of all those stats. I can't remember a gear decision that boiled down to "which is better, hit or crit?"

Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
As long as the casttime of steady shot + 0.5 sec for the hidden auto shot-casttime + 0.2 for lag is less than the auto attack-speed, haste has a usefull effect.
I think the point at which haste stops having a useful effect is when your autoshot attack speed gets down to GCD + Lag. Consider the case of a hunter with a 2.9 weapon firing at 1.7s hasted autoshot speed, not under bloodlust (1.5s GCD), with 200 ms of lag. This hunter would have a .88s steady shot. The rotation would look like this:

0.0 Auto fires
0.2 Start Steady
1.1 Steady Fires
1.7 Auto Fires / GCD Ends
1.9 Start Steady
2.8 Steady Fires
3.4 Auto Fires / GCD Ends

Now imagine this hunter received additional haste bringing him/her down to 1.5 second autoshots. This hunter would have .78s steady shots. The rotation would be:

0.0 Auto Fires
0.2 Start Steady
1.0 Steady Fires
1.5 Auto fires
1.7 GCD ends
1.9 Start Steady
2.7 Steady Fires
3.2 Auto fires (delayed)
3.4 GCD ends
3.6 Start Steady
4.4 Steady fires
4.9 Auto fires (delayed)
5.1 GCD ends
5.3 Start Steady
6.1 Steady Fires
6.6 Autoshot Fires (delayed)

As you can see, every autoshot after the first one is firing 1.7 seconds after the previous autoshot. This is because each steady shot is cast .2 seconds after the GCD ends (due to lag), and each autoshot occurs .5s after the steady shot finishes, but before the GCD is over. You might decide to try to work around making your 1.5s autoshots into 1.7s autoshots by only casting a steady every other auto. Unfortunately, this would result in lower DPS than just delaying your autoshots.

Assume for a second that steady shot and auto shot do approximately the same damage. Clipping all of your autoshots and casting 1 steady per auto, you would cast 2 shots every 1.7 seconds, or approximately 1.18 shots per second. If you are casting 1 steady per 2 autos to avoid clipping every auto, you would cast 1 shot per 1.5 seconds plus 1 shot per 3.0 seconds, or a total of 3 shots per 3 seconds, for 1.0 shots per second. So unless your autoshot does a lot more damage than your steady shot, you will be better off clipping autoshots to GCD + Lag if your haste gets too high.

Clipping autoshots is bad for your rotation, but avoiding it by not casting specials is often worse.
#1444SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ladwenae
Haste will rock for survival hunters when they get enought to do a rotation like BM hunters are using now.....

I still feel that its a very flawed stat for hunters until the either fix or change the way our mechanics are in regards to haste...
#1445SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sennak
This is in that thread that I read about the scorpion poison mayhem. I've used and abused of it when I was BM, but recently, I reached my 1K agi cap when buffed and respecced SV.

I've noticed 2 things rather interesting :
- expose weakness, when proced before the poison is applied, increases the first tick the same way as did bestial wrath, with following increases
- expose weakness affects in the same way the "mutilate" talent of the feral drood, whose ticks work the same way as the scorpid poison (ie : the EW must be effective before the first tick of mutilate).

My fellow drood is in love with me with mutilate ticks around 650 and the EW still applying to all his other strikes. And I fell as surprised as he was when I saw my scorpid poison ticking for 650 too.

I did'nt take screenshot at the moment and regret it. When this will show up again, I won't forget and will post it here.
#1446SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Xantcha
Originally Posted by Sennak View Post
"mutilate" talent of the feral drood
Mangle not mutilate =)
#1447SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sennak
Originally Posted by Xantcha View Post
Mangle not mutilate =)
beg you pardon, it was a poor translation from french to english.
Mangle indeed.
#1448SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kaelana
Originally Posted by Vitaro View Post
Stuff on latency.
I generally run on anywhere between 400-600ms latency depending on how the international lines are treating me. With this degree of latency, I find activating steady just before autoshot fires helps a lot in improving damage. This tricks the server to thinking you activated steady after the autoshot fires (similar concept as casters using /stopcasting macros & a Quartz bar).

i.e. If I am running on a consistent 500ms latency, I would try to start steady shot 400-500ms before the next autoshot fires so that the server registers as charging the steady after the next autoshot.

Try that and see if you can get more out of the Wolfslayer - it takes quite a bit of getting used to vs a preset macro. A lot of macros I see don't deal with the additional latency (which is why I stay away from them) and have steady shot activating after auto which is suboptimal.

(minor edit on grammar)
#1449SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2gooorack
Those deep into BT. Anyone who is BM considered getting a slower bow (3.2 speed gladiator) and stacking lots of haste effects?
I know 2.9 / 3.0 is generally optimum for a BM hunter with a SS + KC rotation, but couldnt a 3.2 be just as effective, or more so with haste effects.
#1450SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Djinn
Originally Posted by gooorack View Post
Those deep into BT. Anyone who is BM considered getting a slower bow (3.2 speed gladiator) and stacking lots of haste effects?
I know 2.9 / 3.0 is generally optimum for a BM hunter with a SS + KC rotation, but couldnt a 3.2 be just as effective, or more so with haste effects.
No, because the haste will be more effective with a 2.9 or 3.0 speed then it would be with a 3.2. I have 3 haste items and don't have a issue when using a 3.0 speed, when it comes to delaying shots.
#1451SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Challis
Originally Posted by Kaelana View Post
i.e. If I am running on a consistent 500ms latency, I would try to start steady shot 400-500ms before the next autoshot fires so that the server registers as charging the steady after the next autoshot.

Try that and see if you can get more out of the Wolfslayer - it takes quite a bit of getting used to vs a preset macro. A lot of macros I see don't deal with the additional latency (which is why I stay away from them) and have steady shot activating after auto which is suboptimal.
I also agree with this. Living in Australia gives me a 600-700ms but I've found that an awesome mod for this is Quartz, its just like a normal cast bar but it shows the exact latency in red at the end of the cast, giving you almost perfect timing on when to cast the next shot. Though recently I've found that the macro previously linked in this thread
#show Steady Shot
/stopcasting
/castrandom [combat,pet,target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/stopcasting
/cast Steady Shot
Its quite helpful in this regard. I've found that this, granted is more for enabling kill command, but the way it is typed means that auto continues to fire in the back ground. Thus taking your 500ms latency, and turning into the kill command activation.
#1452SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
dR. dEVICE
k tonight was the first time raiding with the dragonspine trophy and i got to say it was amazing to see.


http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...9997-10612&a=3

gotta say i love haste it rocks for bm hunters. im having wet dreams about the passive haste mail. macro spam didnt seem affected.

Last edited by dR. dEVICE : 07/06/07 at 4:19 AM.
#1453SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Belzi.ET
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
...

I think the point at which haste stops having a useful effect is when your autoshot attack speed gets down to GCD + Lag.

...
I'm not sure about this. My experience in time of heavy lag was that GCD starts when you press the button. So the GDC seems to be calculated local and is independent to latency.

With this in mind I would say that it's possible have a auto attack-speed faster than GDC. But I'm not really sure about the mechanics and data-transfer client <-> server. It's just a theory based on my ingame-lag-experience.
#1454SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ishmaael
I know its hard but without too much in-depth gear analysis, anyone who has the trinkets / done the math able to give me there opinion on a ranking of the better raid trinkets?

Assuming around 2k unbuffed AP / 28% crit as a BM, how would you rate the Bloodlust Brooch, Hourglass, Dragonspine trophy, Tsunami talisman, edge of madness (name could be wrong?) al'ar trinket and the deathsworn one. The reason I ask is because while surfing the armories of hunters with loftier gear, i've seen over the last month or two certain people go from hourglass, to al'ar, to deathsworn (im reffering to the steadyshot trinket) then back to the hourglass. Could just be due to different encounters / farming gear or w/e.
#1455SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Volcom974
Hi guys,
i have a question, since i can't post in the UI section as i'm a newbie here, i will post it here since it's not off topic.

I have been trying the scorpid tricks but i can't see the damage of the ticks only in my combat log.
I have been trying SCTD it doesn't show the damages of the poison at the moment i'm using Mikk Scrolling Battle Text which is for me far better than SCTD but again impossible to see the damage done by the poison.

I would like to know if there is a way to see it in any "SCTD-type" addon and if you can is there any special modification or configuration to do.
For the people who has a scorpid how do you check the damage of one tick of poison.

Thx for any answer and excuse my bad english.
#1456SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
I know its hard but without too much in-depth gear analysis, anyone who has the trinkets / done the math able to give me there opinion on a ranking of the better raid trinkets?

Assuming around 2k unbuffed AP / 28% crit as a BM, how would you rate the Bloodlust Brooch, Hourglass, Dragonspine trophy, Tsunami talisman, edge of madness (name could be wrong?) al'ar trinket and the deathsworn one. The reason I ask is because while surfing the armories of hunters with loftier gear, i've seen over the last month or two certain people go from hourglass, to al'ar, to deathsworn (im reffering to the steadyshot trinket) then back to the hourglass. Could just be due to different encounters / farming gear or w/e.
First, I must scold you for not searching for the answers. These have been discussed in this thread already.

Be that as it may, it's very easy to determine the average RAP from the trinkets. I don't really feel like deriving some big equation for the Dragonspine trophy, because haste gives me headaches (you have to know too many extraneous variables to tell how much damage it will add). Also, Hourglass and Tsunami are listed at 10% proc rate and have a 45 second internal cooldown. Talon of Al'ar was discussed in it's own thread somewhere else; long story short, it's bad - if you can get it for almost no dkp, take it in case it's improved later, but don't worry about getting it.

Bloodlust Brooch = 70 + 270 * 20 / 120 = 115 RAP
Ashtongue Talisman = 275 * (1 - 0.85^3) = 106.1 RAP
Dragonspine = 40 + DPS from Haste / 14 RAP
Hourglass = 300 * 10 / (45 + speed / (0.10 * crit rate)) ~ 41 RAP (for 2.1 speed auto/steady & 28% crit)
Tsunami = 340 * 10 / (45 + speed / (0.10 * crit rate)) ~ 36 RAP (for 2.1 speed auto/steady & 28% crit)

If you like haste, Dragonspine is killer (but I'm still not calculating the benefit, that's a headache). I highly recommend you search for more in depth discussions on these trinkets, though.

Talon of Al'ar [hunter] Talon of Al'al theorycrafting
Ashtongue Talisman http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...gue#post396040

[edit] Keep in mind I didn't add in the static +hit or +crit that some of the trinkets have, which will have an effect. If you need more precise numbers, use Cheeky's Spreadsheet (I'm not sure if he's added in the time averaged RAP from procs yet, but if not you can manually add them in with the manual adjustment area).

[edit 2] Accounted for steady shot in my Hourglass and Tsunami calculations.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 07/06/07 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Added a comment
#1457SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Relwin
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
I know its hard but without too much in-depth gear analysis, anyone who has the trinkets / done the math able to give me there opinion on a ranking of the better raid trinkets?

Assuming around 2k unbuffed AP / 28% crit as a BM, how would you rate the Bloodlust Brooch, Hourglass, Dragonspine trophy, Tsunami talisman, edge of madness (name could be wrong?) al'ar trinket and the deathsworn one. The reason I ask is because while surfing the armories of hunters with loftier gear, i've seen over the last month or two certain people go from hourglass, to al'ar, to deathsworn (im reffering to the steadyshot trinket) then back to the hourglass. Could just be due to different encounters / farming gear or w/e.
Two of the following trinkets are what I'll be looking to use as my endgame ones: Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness, Tsunai Talisman, Madness of the Betrayer. The only reason I'd swap between them would be to potential missing hit due to resist gear or lack of optimal drops in other slots. The two I'd lean towards full time use would be both talismans.

I could see someone swapping in hourglass over the ashtongue trinket for pvp and the like if they had one of the two other trinkets I mentioned in their other slot.
#1458SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Ishmaael
Thanks to the 2 posts relating to my question. I definitely like my dragonspine and feel it's haste is very beneficial but let's not go into that. The al'ar trinket i had seen the talk about, basically it only procs off specials (not auto's) and i agree it'd be fairly worthless. For me i've always seemed to undervalue hourglass compared to other hunters. I used my bladefist over it when i was an mm hunter pushing 2.5k RAP with only 21% crit. I simply didn't feel it procced the once per minute and a half that was required of it to be equal to the bladefist (and made better by the higher crit rating). Since going BM and having a faster attack speed + 30% crit unbuffed i felt it was the better option, but however still dont believe its the OP trinket others do. With our lowered attack speed (compared to say a rogue) lesser haste ability and around half the crit of a rogue or whatever with the correct build.
#1459SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2svengarlic
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
I'm not sure about this. My experience in time of heavy lag was that GCD starts when you press the button. So the GDC seems to be calculated local and is independent to latency.

With this in mind I would say that it's possible have a auto attack-speed faster than GDC. But I'm not really sure about the mechanics and data-transfer client <-> server. It's just a theory based on my ingame-lag-experience.
I should've explained what I meant by lag. I mean the time between when the GCD ends and when your next steady shot begins. To put it another way, imagine you didn't have autoshot and you were just spamming steady shot as fast as you can. How often is steady shot firing? Ideally one every 1.5 seconds, but in the real world its probably a bit slower. The difference between 1.5 seconds and the actual time between steadies being spammed is the lag I was talking about.

I agree with you that its perfectly possible to have an autoshot speed faster than the GCD. My point was that in that situation, the best thing to do would be to continue using 1 special per auto, which would slow your autoshots down to whatever speed you could spam steady at. This would imply that there is an auto-attack speed greater than 1.5 below which any additional haste doesn't increase DPS.
#1460SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Volcom974 View Post
Hi guys,
i have a question, since i can't post in the UI section as i'm a newbie here, i will post it here since it's not off topic.

I have been trying the scorpid tricks but i can't see the damage of the ticks only in my combat log.
I have been trying SCTD it doesn't show the damages of the poison at the moment i'm using Mikk Scrolling Battle Text which is for me far better than SCTD but again impossible to see the damage done by the poison.

I would like to know if there is a way to see it in any "SCTD-type" addon and if you can is there any special modification or configuration to do.
For the people who has a scorpid how do you check the damage of one tick of poison.

Thx for any answer and excuse my bad english.
I use:

MikScrollingBattleText - shows pet damage on screen including Scorpid damage http://www-en.curse-gaming.com/downloads/details/3395/

SimpleCombatLog - An Ace mod which is a must-have http://files.wowace.com/

Scorpid Poison Counter - A mod that brings up a window (wish the size was scalable though) that shows all you need to know about your Scorpid Poison ticks http://www-en.curse-gaming.com/downloads/details/8280/
#1461SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
Thanks to the 2 posts relating to my question. I definitely like my dragonspine and feel it's haste is very beneficial but let's not go into that. The al'ar trinket i had seen the talk about, basically it only procs off specials (not auto's) and i agree it'd be fairly worthless. For me i've always seemed to undervalue hourglass compared to other hunters. I used my bladefist over it when i was an mm hunter pushing 2.5k RAP with only 21% crit. I simply didn't feel it procced the once per minute and a half that was required of it to be equal to the bladefist (and made better by the higher crit rating). Since going BM and having a faster attack speed + 30% crit unbuffed i felt it was the better option, but however still dont believe its the OP trinket others do. With our lowered attack speed (compared to say a rogue) lesser haste ability and around half the crit of a rogue or whatever with the correct build.
You can figure out average time between hourglass (and tsunami, actually, since they have the same cooldown length and proc rate from crits). It's simply the cooldown time plus the time between procs. Dimensional analysis shows that ( shots / second ) * ( crits / shot ) * ( procs / crit ) gives ( procs / second ). You can take the inverse of that to get seconds / proc, or the time between procs. So the internal cooldown of 45s plus 37.5s (in your case - doing auto/steady at 2.1 speed w/ 28% to crit) is 82.5. The uptime is then 12% for an average RAP of 36 on Hourglass and 41 on Tsunami. I should point out this differs from my last post (in which I didn't account for steady shot). I'll edit the last post to include steady; either way, neither of those trinkets can match the average RAP of bloodlust brooch or ashtongue talisman.

Tsunami is obviously going to be better than Hourglass (given that it has more static stats and better average RAP from the proc), but I'd probably pass the Tsunami talisman to a rogue or dual wielder who would benefit from the hit more than I would. It's not a bad trinket, but I think it's only marginally superior to Hourglass for a Hunter whereas it would be a large upgrade for a somewhat more hit dependant class.

[EDIT] To address madness of the betrayer, based on the wowhead listed PPM of 1.5, first figure out uptime. I know it's been discussed before, but I honestly forget if PPM is calculated based on base weapon speed or hasted weapon speed. I believe it's base, but if someone corrects me I'll update this. 1.5 PPM at 2.9 weapon speed is a 100*1.5/60/2.9=7.25% proc chance. An auto/steady rotation fires a shot every 1.05 seconds, on average, with that speed weapon (2.9/(1.15*1.20*2)=1.05). The uptime calculation is then 1-(1-0.0725)^floor(10/1.05)=49% uptime.

Now, we have to figure out how much RAP the armor ignoring is worth. This obviously depends on how much mitigation the target has to begin with; due to the shape of the armor/mitigation curve, high armor targets will be less effected than low armor targets. Since I can't speak specifically about a target, I'll just give you an equation and you can figure it out based on what % mitigation you think the target has. The armor formula is %Reduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * 73)) * 100 for a boss (level 73). I'm going to make the assumption that all damage you do is mitigated at the same rate, such that the effect of the trinket is uniform for all attacks and therefore all damage you personally deal (not strictly true at all, but for simplicity's sake I'm assuming that). Ok, a loss of 300 armor makes the mitigation equation simplify down to r =((Armor-300)/(Armor+11660))*100. If a target mitigates n%, you're doing (1-n)*BaseDamage=TotalDamage. A loss of r mitigation (according the the previous equation) equates to (1-(n-(n-r)))*BaseDamage. Subtracting one from the other, the increase in TotalDamage is r*BaseDamage. We can calculate BaseDamage as TotalDamage/(1-n) and do the algebra such that the increase in damage is (n-r)*TotalDamage/(1-n), so with the trinket buff active you're doing TotalDamage*(1+(n-r)/(1-n)). Ok, to get your new damage with the buff up, it's TotalDamage*(1-r)/(1-n), so just multiply the dps you do without the buff by (1-r)/(1-n) where n is the base mitigation and r is the reduction in mitigation provided by a loss of 300 armor.

Ugh, messy. Lemme give you a quick example. Lets say the target has 20% base mitigation. That's 2990 base armor. A reduction of 300 armor gives 2690 armor, which is 18.36% mitigation. That gives you a damage coefficient of (1-0.1836/(1-0.20)=1.02, which is about a 2% increase in total dps. If you're doing 750 personal dps (not including pet, remember) that's an increase of 15.375 dps while the buff is active. Given that the buff has a 49% uptime, that's a time-averaged 7.53375 dps which equates to 105.4725 AP plus the static RAP of 84. Wow. Try it for a target with less mitigation. 10% base mitigation gives ~1329 armor, and a loss of 300 armor gives 7.92% mitigation. That's a coefficient of 1.023, which would be a time-averaged dps increase of 8.48 and RAP of 118.72. This seems like a pretty darn good trinket to me.

[edit 2] Realized I calculated RAP from DPS incorrectly (divided by 14 instead of multiply). Fixed now.

Last edited by The Iron Colonel : 07/06/07 at 12:41 PM.
#1462SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Harwin
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
You can figure out average time between hourglass (and tsunami, actually, since they have the same cooldown length and proc rate from crits). It's simply the cooldown time plus the time between procs. Dimensional analysis shows that ( shots / second ) * ( crits / shot ) * ( procs / crit ) gives ( procs / second ). You can take the inverse of that to get seconds / proc, or the time between procs. So the internal cooldown of 45s plus 37.5s (in your case - doing auto/steady at 2.1 speed w/ 28% to crit) is 82.5. The uptime is then 12% for an average RAP of 36 on Hourglass and 41 on Tsunami. I should point out this differs from my last post (in which I didn't account for steady shot). I'll edit the last post to include steady; either way, neither of those trinkets can match the average RAP of bloodlust brooch or ashtongue talisman.

Tsunami is obviously going to be better than Hourglass (given that it has more static stats and better average RAP from the proc), but I'd probably pass the Tsunami talisman to a rogue or dual wielder who would benefit from the hit more than I would. It's not a bad trinket, but I think it's only marginally superior to Hourglass for a Hunter whereas it would be a large upgrade for a somewhat more hit dependant class.
Yeah but how much does the GCD on bloodlust matter? I've been hesitant to swap to it because hourglass of the unraveller just works for me(although it also works for me at non-optimal times). For the brooch I have to forego a steadyshot to use it. In 2 minutes a 1.5s gcd is 1.1% of my damage. 45 RAP from using it would seem to be < 1.1% of a damage boost, making it actively bad to use.
#1463SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Phanuel
There's no GCD when triggering a trinket.
#1464SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Reipin Pillage
Osse,

Have you had a chance to test the Serpentspine with the Crystalweave cape?
#1465SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Breakerone
I believe Osse is banned from this forum.
#1466SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Serpica
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I believe Osse is banned from this forum.
That is correct. He got a week ban, starting on 7/3.
#1467SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
No, because the haste will be more effective with a 2.9 or 3.0 speed then it would be with a 3.2. I have 3 haste items and don't have a issue when using a 3.0 speed, when it comes to delaying shots.
Djinn, please stop getting loot. Its getting to be very aggrevating keeping up with your Armory profile especially with my horrible luck on drops. Back on topic, I am running with 2 haste items and my POS Kara bow and have no issues with clipping yet, either. I imagine once I get a 3.0 speed bow it'll be easier to squeeze in 1 more haste item like the ring.
#1468SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Serpica
Howitzer, are you still threading your shots manually?

Last edited by Serpica : 07/06/07 at 1:35 PM.
#1469SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Harwin
Originally Posted by Phanuel View Post
There's no GCD when triggering a trinket.
Really? Huh. I feel kind of stupid then. Maybe I'll spend my badges on the bloodlust brooch after all.
#1470SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Howitzer, are you still threading your shots manually?
Yes. I find it much more accurate than spamming a macro.
#1471SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2kronchev
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Yes. I find it much more accurate than spamming a macro.

I find that a little ironic, since the purpose of a macro is to minimize any downtime between shots due to anything but lag But then again, most macros flip out if you start throwing in other shits and forget to reset it. So I definitly understand this statement.


As for BM...I like BM solo and PVP. A lot. A very lot. However, my hunter being an alt, is regulated to being leader of our C Team, which is full of people with "abnormal" schedules, and a few who don't seem to want to take raiding seriously...so he isn't raiding a lot. I am Survival spec (20/41) and I like it a lot. I am sure that with BM I could do higher sustained DPS without burning mana pots, however, I don't want to test the healers with healing my pet while they have to focus on a tertiary guild tank, AND people who for the most part have never done any raiding before Kara. Am I just hyping the pet factor too much, especially with the new Mend Pet mechanics and Avoidance?
#1472SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Howitzer
Originally Posted by kronchev View Post
I find that a little ironic, since the purpose of a macro is to minimize any downtime between shots due to anything but lag But then again, most macros flip out if you start throwing in other shits and forget to reset it. So I definitly understand this statement.


As for BM...I like BM solo and PVP. A lot. A very lot. However, my hunter being an alt, is regulated to being leader of our C Team, which is full of people with "abnormal" schedules, and a few who don't seem to want to take raiding seriously...so he isn't raiding a lot. I am Survival spec (20/41) and I like it a lot. I am sure that with BM I could do higher sustained DPS without burning mana pots, however, I don't want to test the healers with healing my pet while they have to focus on a tertiary guild tank, AND people who for the most part have never done any raiding before Kara. Am I just hyping the pet factor too much, especially with the new Mend Pet mechanics and Avoidance?
The pet is an added bonus to your damage as BM but isn't the large contributor to your DPS. You can keep up with or surpass the damage dealt by a full survival hunter as a BM spec without even using your pet. Serpent's swiftness = win. Serpent's Swiftness + Haste items = super win!!!

Last edited by Howitzer : 07/06/07 at 2:36 PM.
#1473SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2kronchev
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
The pet is an added bonus to your damage as BM but isn't the large contributor to your DPS. I can keep up with or surpass the damage dealt by a full survival hunter as a BM spec without even using my pet. Serpent's swiftness = win.

Right now, I am 4th in DPS, beaten by a rogue and 2 mages. Below me is whatever DPS we can fill in which is usually somebody terrible, and the tanks.

I don't like being so low. I would say that I have gear equal to or better than these guys. I use a pretty standard "spam this shit" macro for Survival (arcane auto steady auto steady and then weaved in multis/stings as needed)

/edit; That's interesting that you say its' not the biggest, a lot of the charts I see show the pet being close to the rest of shots used in terms of added dps!
#1474SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Originally Posted by kronchev View Post
Right now, I am 4th in DPS, beaten by a rogue and 2 mages. Below me is whatever DPS we can fill in which is usually somebody terrible, and the tanks.

I don't like being so low. I would say that I have gear equal to or better than these guys. I use a pretty standard "spam this shit" macro for Survival (arcane auto steady auto steady and then weaved in multis/stings as needed)

/edit; That's interesting that you say its' not the biggest, a lot of the charts I see show the pet being close to the rest of shots used in terms of added dps!
Alright, here is a chart of last night's entire Mt. Hyjal raid damage dealt:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=2vo1vk1zyknbo

In this WWS report you'll see the several 1st attempts my guild had at Archimonde. In these Archimonde attempts there is me, (a BM hunter), and a Survival Hunter. Both equally geared, both using the same bow. We didn't use our pets all night because we were retarded and believed that a pet death would cause a 4,000 dmg DOT to the raid. (We realized this morning it was coincidence that a pet died right when another player died which led to that assumption that it was bugged last night).

Anyways, Archimonde: no pets

Attempt 1: no pet:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...o&s=9969-10036
847 DPS
Attempt 5: no pet:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=12276-12464
787 DPS (only 3,000 damage behind the survival hunter)
Attempt 8: no pet:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=14593-14884
893 DPS

Now here is another fight, in the same evening, on Fusion's 1st kill of Azgalor:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...bo&s=7236-7539
1153 DPS - big difference, yes?

As you can see, a BM pet is going to add roughly 300-400 dps which is excellent BUT STILL less than half of what you yourself are putting out. YES, the pet is absolutely important and crucial to keep up, but by no means does it completely define your usefulness as BM.
#1475SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Relwin
Doomfire pretty much bones pets if they ever get hit, so you weren't missing out on much with not using yours last night.
#1476SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Howitzer
Originally Posted by Relwin View Post
Doomfire pretty much bones pets if they ever get hit, so you weren't missing out on much with not using yours last night.
Yea, judging by what it did to me when I was feared into it last night I am pretty sure you're right. Even with avoidance2 and a precast pet mend I don't think a pet can live through that crap.
#1477SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Djinn
Doomfire is a terrible ability they gave an end game boss, its applied by physical means. Meaning getting highest rank of fire resist wont help your pet live through it. Maxing out stamina would be your best bet. I switched back to my Wind Serpent for this fight because its melee range is farther then a scorpid and has dive, helping it move out of doomfire faster, it helped a little. I still don't think Avoidance is working as it should on Doomfire and Azgalor's Rain of fire. The DoT they add to the AoE ability should be affected by Avoidance, so our pets could have a chance to live.

@kronchev
A lot of hunters dont use a /castseq macro, because they are use to casting shots before the auto shot bar is actually filled up, unlike the macro you have to wait for every shot to fire before the next can start.
#1478SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2cipro
Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
@kronchev
A lot of hunters dont use a /castseq macro, because they are use to casting shots before the auto shot bar is actually filled up, unlike the macro you have to wait for every shot to fire before the next can start.
What on earth do you mean by this. I'm gonna go ahead and throw in the fact that you probably use quartz or somethign that shows your lag each shot, but I still cannot figure out what you mean by this.
#1479SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2ron9
For a BM Hunter, which of the two are better if your using a steady shot macro?

Dragonspine Trophy or Tsunami Talisman?
#1480SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Relwin
Originally Posted by ron9 View Post
For a BM Hunter, which of the two are better if your using a steady shot macro?

Dragonspine Trophy or Tsunami Talisman?
Personal preference or check the spreadsheet. Also fill in your server in your profile.

Giving us zero other information other than you are a BM hunter is a great way for us to suggest gear choices as well.
#1481SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2cipro
If you have 200 MS, 15 fps or lower in raids, 2.9 or faster speed bow, points in imp aoth, and a slow reaction time, its probably better not to use dragonspine as BM
#1482SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Intermission
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Yea, judging by what it did to me when I was feared into it last night I am pretty sure you're right. Even with avoidance2 and a precast pet mend I don't think a pet can live through that crap.
Yes, being BM on Archimonde is a bit of a bummer. An extra 6 yards range is a *huge* benefit, more so than Serpents Swiftness itself imo! As for my pet:

I typically keep it dismissed at the start. I dont have it passive next to me, as It can be feared into the fire. Then, I bring it out on two occasions; a) I had to use my PvP trinket, so I have my pet out on passive, ready to hit BW if he starts casting fear right as a fire spawns/crawls its way towards me, or b) Its around 40% and I send him in with BW/trinkets/etc just after a fear, to get some quick DPS out of him. Often he dies within 15 seconds from a fire, but once he lasted from 40% to 15%, lucky with fires (and quick dispelling mages).

The reason why I dont keep him on passive and BW as many fears as I can, is because we are a horde oceanic guild. Our tank already has enough trouble breaking the fear (500ms latency, 1000ms cast time. Often he breaks it, Archi starts running to a ranged and snaps back a second later). I wouldnt want to throw an immune-to-fear melee for him to deal with also. I suppose I'm being over cautious, there would surely be people on higher threat that resist a fear, but the extra dps from me isn't going to make or break the fight and I might as well play safe.
#1483SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2senior toasted bread
Originally Posted by cipro View Post
What on earth do you mean by this. I'm gonna go ahead and throw in the fact that you probably use quartz or something that shows your lag each shot, but I still cannot figure out what you mean by this.
Due to latency you can start a steady shot before your autoshot finishes casting, and it wont clip the autoshot, by the time the server realizes you have started steady the autoshot is away, or at least thats my understanding of it.
#1484SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Zediono
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Ugh, messy. Lemme give you a quick example. Lets say the target has 20% base mitigation. That's 2990 base armor. A reduction of 300 armor gives 2690 armor, which is 18.36% mitigation. That gives you a damage coefficient of (1-0.1836/(1-0.20)=1.02, which is about a 2% increase in total dps. If you're doing 750 personal dps (not including pet, remember) that's an increase of 15.375 dps while the buff is active. Given that the buff has a 49% uptime, that's a time-averaged 7.53375 dps which equates to 105.4725 AP plus the static RAP of 84. Wow. Try it for a target with less mitigation. 10% base mitigation gives ~1329 armor, and a loss of 300 armor gives 7.92% mitigation. That's a coefficient of 1.023, which would be a time-averaged dps increase of 8.48 and RAP of 118.72. This seems like a pretty darn good trinket to me.
Unless I'm missing something, shouldn't you multiply the dps given by the proc over time (7.53375dps) by the % damage dealt by your autoshot to get the correct value of RAP it provides? I.e. lets say 50% of your personal dps comes from auto shot, it should be 7.53375*50%=3.766875dps assigned to autoshot or 52.73625ap ?? So overall about 84+53=137ap worth (excluding the +20hit rating) for Madness of the betrayer in your first example. Still a hardcore trinket of course
#1485SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Shandara
Originally Posted by senior toasted bread View Post
Due to latency you can start a steady shot before your autoshot finishes casting, and it wont clip the autoshot, by the time the server realizes you have started steady the autoshot is away, or at least thats my understanding of it.
Whereas a macro will have to wait for the server to tell your client the shot has fired before it will start the next shot in the sequence, thus incurring _twice_ the latency. Not a problem if you play with very low latency of course.
#1486SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Cheeky
Originally Posted by Zediono View Post
Unless I'm missing something, shouldn't you multiply the dps given by the proc over time (7.53375dps) by the % damage dealt by your autoshot to get the correct value of RAP it provides? I.e. lets say 50% of your personal dps comes from auto shot, it should be 7.53375*50%=3.766875dps assigned to autoshot or 52.73625ap ?? So overall about 84+53=137ap worth (excluding the +20hit rating) for Madness of the betrayer in your first example. Still a hardcore trinket of course
Steady Shot and Multi Shot are both physical damage, and would benefit from the armor reduction. Only Arcane Shot (and Serpent Sting) would be unaffected.
#1487SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Zediono
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Steady Shot and Multi Shot are both physical damage, and would benefit from the armor reduction. Only Arcane Shot (and Serpent Sting) would be unaffected.
I understand this. I'll try and make myself clearer I was commenting on the Total DPS -> Effective RAP conversion that he made for the proc's armour ignore effect, which is wrong I think. He used 1 DPS -> 14 RAP, but that is only true for Auto Shot DPS -> RAP conversion and ignores quiver haste and talents. That conversion also ignores special shots, which are part of a hunter's personal Total DPS.


However I think I also got it wrong in previous post. To find the Effective RAP the trinket's proc gives (taking the same example as Welshy):

7.53375 Time Averaged Proc DPS with 750 Base Total DPS and 20% damage reduction from armour:

[EffectiveProctRAP] = [DPStoRAPAutoShotConversion] * [TimeAveragedProcDPS] * [PercentageDamageFromAutoShot] / ( ( [TotalPercentageHaste] ) * [TotalPercentageDamageIncreases] )

With [DPStoRAPAutoShotConversion] = 14 ; [TotalPercentageHaste]

[top] 1.15*1.2*100%


138% and [PercentageDamageIncreases] = 100% + any % damage buffs or talents you may have (FI, TBW, etc..) i.e. 103% damage with FI up for example.

With this example's numbers, it gives us:

[EffectiveProcRAP]

[top] 14 * 7.53375 * 50% / (138% * 100%)


38.2147 Effective RAP from the proc. This gives Madness of the Betrayer 84+38=122 Effective RAP excluding its +20hit rating bonus.

I'm aware one could use another (physical) shot to calculate the procs effective RAP contribution, but I think they all lead to the same answer in the end.
#1488SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I have haste gloves from BT that brought my 2.9 spd bow + quiver + haste item + serpent's swiftness down to 2.03 spd. I could still handle 1-2 more haste items and not clip shots.
Are you getting your Kill Commands in there and are they adding any delay at that speed?
#1489SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
Whereas a macro will have to wait for the server to tell your client the shot has fired before it will start the next shot in the sequence, thus incurring _twice_ the latency. Not a problem if you play with very low latency of course.
I see this a lot and I think it is worth noting that we currently don't know exactly what the latency shown by the WoW client is. If it is the standard use of the word then it is the round-trip-time of a command to the server. Time from when I send the server a command, till the server sends me back a response responding to that command. This includes time for the command to traverse the internet, be processed and acknowledged. I'm pretty sure this is the case since when the server is overloaded latency shoots up. This has nothing to do with the internet itself, just the limited processing power of the server, it cannot do all the things it needs to (including responding to incoming commands).

If that is correct then a castsequence macro won't incur a double latency penalty.

Example with 200ms latency (round-trip-time), 90ms one way travel time

000ms - press button
005ms - command sent to server
095ms - server gets command and queues it
105ms - server processes command
110ms - server sends response
200ms - client gets response

So anything that is processed entirely on the server, you should incur half of your total latency to get the results.

000ms - auto shot timer finishes
005ms - server processes auto shot
010ms - server sends results
100ms - client gets results

If you want to perform an action immediately after that, you will incur your latency + reaction/macro mashing delay. If I am hitting it 10 times a second (100ms macro delay).

200ms - client hits macro
205ms - command sent to server
295ms - server gets command and queues it
#1490SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Zediono View Post
I understand this. I'll try and make myself clearer I was commenting on the Total DPS -> Effective RAP conversion that he made for the proc's armour ignore effect, which is wrong I think. He used 1 DPS -> 14 RAP, but that is only true for Auto Shot DPS -> RAP conversion and ignores quiver haste and talents. That conversion also ignores special shots, which are part of a hunter's personal Total DPS.


However I think I also got it wrong in previous post. To find the Effective RAP the trinket's proc gives (taking the same example as Welshy):

7.53375 Time Averaged Proc DPS with 750 Base Total DPS and 20% damage reduction from armour:

[EffectiveProctRAP] = [DPStoRAPAutoShotConversion] * [TimeAveragedProcDPS] * [PercentageDamageFromAutoShot] / ( ( [TotalPercentageHaste] ) * [TotalPercentageDamageIncreases] )

With [DPStoRAPAutoShotConversion] = 14 ; [TotalPercentageHaste]

[top] 1.15*1.2*100%


138% and [PercentageDamageIncreases] = 100% + any % damage buffs or talents you may have (FI, TBW, etc..) i.e. 103% damage with FI up for example.

With this example's numbers, it gives us:

[EffectiveProcRAP]

[top] 14 * 7.53375 * 50% / (138% * 100%)


38.2147 Effective RAP from the proc. This gives Madness of the Betrayer 84+38=122 Effective RAP excluding its +20hit rating bonus.

I'm aware one could use another (physical) shot to calculate the procs effective RAP contribution, but I think they all lead to the same answer in the end.
I think you're correct in that I'm being overly simplistic in my evaluation of effective average RAP on that trinket. However, I'm not sure I agree with your alternative methodology. If you wanted to be very specific (which is what I'm gathering from what you've listed), you would have to know what the exact breakdown of the components of your dps. You've listed autoshot at 50%, but presumably that leaves steady shot as the other 50% of your personal dps (completely ignoring pets). Since steady shot gets 0.2*RAP added as the RAP contribution, you'd have to have 0.5*7.5/0.2=18.75 RAP for steady shot, which would add in to the total.

Honestly, you'd be better off just using Cheeky's spreadsheet and comparing your personal damage gain by manually decreasing the boss mitigation by 300 and then muliplying that by the uptime to get a rough estimate of added dps. Honestly, the exact result is purely academic for the question of preferential use of trinkets; apparently without respect to the method we chose to use Madness of the Betrayer outpaces the alternative trinkets, which was the original question.

I acknowledge that I frequently simplify calculations to what some would deem an inappropriate level, but in cases where I'm speaking generally I will often make basic assumptions (such as assuming all damage is mitigated equally, which isn't true - Arcane shot being an example of damage that is unmitigated), but I'll try and call those out when I make them such that they don't cause confusion.
#1491SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Furo
I can tell you that when I use a cast sequence macro with auto/steady/KC I do less DPS than when I just manually thread auto/steady.

My ping normally jumps around between 250-400ms and sometimes climbs all the way to 500. I did a Magtheridon run where I did nothing but manually thread steadies...I ended up with 1100 DPS. The next week I used a cast sequence macro with KC and struggled to touch 1000.

To me, it just seems like I can correct for my high latency if I'm doing it manually, all I have to do is start my steady sooner. With the macro I have this huge pause between casts that seems to slow me way down. Keeping up a near perfect steady/auto rotation seems to outweigh the addition of Kill Command in a sequence macro. At least in my experience.

I don't have screenshots or equations but again, that's my real world experience.

Although, on even rarer occasions, I ping 50ms and the macro works great.

Last edited by Furo : 07/07/07 at 5:18 PM.
#1492SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Serpica
Latency aside, how does machine performance factor in? For example, would it impact your macro-mashing raid performance to be getting 10 fps?
#1493SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.2
Djinn
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Latency aside, how does machine performance factor in? For example, would it impact your macro-mashing raid performance to be getting 10 fps?

A good read for some people that use Macros for shots and are getting low FPS.
2.1 - Macros Directly affecting fps?

Edit: Fixed url.

Last edited by Djinn : 07/07/07 at 7:42 PM.
#1494SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Kiklion
Another thing furo, is i believe KC delays your auto if fired in the .5 second cast time of the auto. Because of this I don't care for auto/steady with KC added in macros.
#1495SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Relwin
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
Another thing furo, is i believe KC delays your auto if fired in the .5 second cast time of the auto. Because of this I don't care for auto/steady with KC added in macros.
It's pretty far back in the thread, but yes, this has been known for a while.
#1496SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2senior toasted bread
I've got a question, do you hunters ever use amplify/dampen magic on your pets for boss encounters? I've tested amp. against mend pet and it doesn't affect it, id assume the same for dampen. I can see a use for dampen on fights with a lot of magic aoe (Void Reaver, Fathom-Lord, possibly Lurker) where it would reduce the damage taken, however the other side of the coin is the -effect on other heals my pet receives (chain heal, PoM, PoH and 2 piece t5).
#1497SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2The Iron Colonel
I'll test out damp if we do Void Reaver tonight and post results. I generally let him sit in through pounding, since he's get max AR.
#1498SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Croto
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
Another thing furo, is i believe KC delays your auto if fired in the .5 second cast time of the auto. Because of this I don't care for auto/steady with KC added in macros.
Just like any other special it does delay autoshots.
#1499SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kash
hiho!

I just like to mention that Doomwalker isn't immun to Scorpid Poison.I think a rogue told me that he is immune to poison. But accidentally I applied the Scorpid Poison on Doomwalker.

So yes, it works a 100%. Maybe this isn't big news to you, but I found it quite necessary to tell.

Have you noticed that already before? Because I am sure that Void Reaver is immun.

Another question: Do you wait till "hourglass trinket" procc's and than applying?. I'm not sure if the additional AP justifies the waiting time. (at 30% crit and a 10% procc-chance)

Edit: just did some calc's:
With 30% crit the buff would be applied with a 80% chance after 50 hits.

thats like 35 sek waiting time at 1.5 shots per sec., should be worth it

Edit: deleted some points in order to make everyone happy

Last edited by Kash : 07/15/07 at 8:52 PM.
#1500SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sapa
Post from Survival 2.1 raiding just in case any helpful soul reads this topic only. I guess it can be posted here to since its general stuff.
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=73

Its few pieces of my combatlog from yesterday Vashj. And there are strange things there that I can't explain. (or can't read combatlog properly)

Like questions:
*Does multi shot really delays auto shot? I clipped auto, but still auto hit the target 15ms after multi. While some clipped autos seem to be ok with 0.5s auto shot delay after multi.

*Where did i get 200 ms faster attack speed of the blue once?

Went checking logs for crazy clock and its not there. All 3 logs match, wws doesnt report crazy clock either during merge.

And what the *. Missed EW?!

22:17'54.680	Zek's Multi-Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2879
883	Zek's Expose Weakness misses Lady Vashj
The more that I'm looking at log more crazy its getting.
Its driving me nuts :/
#1501SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Lactose
Expose Weakness has been missing since the Dragonstalker 8/8 days.
Reported as bug then, reported as bug when the PTR hit with the new and improved Survival talent trees, it's still there.
#1502SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2Sapa
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Expose Weakness has been missing since the Dragonstalker 8/8 days.
Reported as bug then, reported as bug when the PTR hit with the new and improved Survival talent trees, it's still there.
Well everyday something "new". Thanks.

Got any idea on those delays?
I found quite some of them not following 0.5 special-auto delay when they should.
#1503SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.2 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
Post from Survival 2.1 raiding just in case any helpful soul reads this topic only. I guess it can be posted here to since its general stuff.
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=73

Its few pieces of my combatlog from yesterday Vashj. And there are strange things there that I can't explain. (or can't read combatlog properly)

Like questions:
*Does multi shot really delays auto shot? I clipped auto, but still auto hit the target 15ms after multi. While some clipped autos seem to be ok with 0.5s auto shot delay after multi.

*Where did i get 200 ms faster attack speed of the blue once?

Went checking logs for crazy clock and its not there. All 3 logs match, wws doesnt report crazy clock either during merge.

And what the *. Missed EW?!

22:17'54.680	Zek's Multi-Shot crits Lady Vashj for 2879
883	Zek's Expose Weakness misses Lady Vashj
The more that I'm looking at log more crazy its getting.
Its driving me nuts :/
I answered your timing question in that thread. As for expose weakness:

http://www.thottbot.com/s34501

It has a spell school (Arcane) so it can probably be resisted. I suspect it works like Arcane shot and a full resist = miss.
#1504SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
As for expose weakness:

http://www.thottbot.com/s34501

It has a spell school (Arcane) so it can probably be resisted. I suspect it works like Arcane shot and a full resist = miss.
No.
The old Dragonstalker 8/8 set bonus had issues with it being resisted at times. The effect was changed as to make it not resistable (check patch notes for exact quote).
The missing started when this was implemented - or, I neither experienced it or heard of anyone else experiencing it before this point in time.
#1505SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
I got to bring up the haste stuff again. While I was checking if I'd prefer the Mukoa Gloves over the T5 Gloves as a next upgrade my calculations gave quite a strange result and I'd like to hear if I did something wrong.

Without going into the well known formulas I picked a base of 2050 RAP, 33.5% crit and the sunfury bow, which leads to about 1147 dps for a BM without IAotH in a pure auto/steady rotation.
Now, would I have the same dps on a 2.7 speed weapon, this would give a large loss in autoshot damage per shot and at the same time give a large boost, because your hasted speed gets from 2.1 to about 2.0, so in combination it would be an upgrade of like 15dps.

Now, the new haste items give you that large boost, because the rotations gets better without losing out on autoshot damage because of the weaponspeed.

So, calculating that a haste item brings me from 2.1 speed to 2.0 speed while keeping the base of 2.9 that would lead to 1204dps, which is roughly the same as I would get from 200 RAP. Now I know the Mukoa Gloves do not bring the speed down to 2.0, its more like 2.03, but thats still an unbelievable upgrade or am I missing something?
#1506SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
Hi, I'm back after 'useless posts'.

So.. back to Crystalweave cloak.

I made thise tests with Serpent Spine Bow.

Crystalweave:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ntbgqnluih4uq&a=2

Vengeance Wrap:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=arsdmdsswzrvk&a=0

As you might have seen a bit over week ago I posted thise two pictures which are crystalweave and vengeance wrap with Phoenix bow.

Crystalweave

Vengeance Wrap

As you can see the tests with Serpent Spine Bow tests have very accurate crit rates and proc rates are about as equal.

I was using auto/steady + KC macro to do thise tests with about 50 ms as average and 60 fps. Had two clients open, one for the paladin to keep judgement up so dont know if that effects anything. (I have 2gb memory)

Say what you say theorycraft wise but I dont believe that you can go below 2.1 character sheet weapon speed without losing overall dps because of stacked haste effects.

I'm just waiting for the haste items so I can pick them all up and spec survival one day, that will be fun.

By the way, you can always proof me wrong by going to Blasted Lands.
#1507SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Hi, I'm back after 'useless posts'.

So.. back to Crystalweave cloak.

I made thise tests with Serpent Spine Bow.

Crystalweave:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ntbgqnluih4uq&a=2

Vengeance Wrap:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=arsdmdsswzrvk&a=0

As you might have seen a bit over week ago I posted thise two pictures which are crystalweave and vengeance wrap with Phoenix bow.

Crystalweave

Vengeance Wrap

As you can see the tests with Serpent Spine Bow tests have very accurate crit rates and proc rates are about as equal.

I was using auto/steady + KC macro to do thise tests with about 50 ms as average and 60 fps. Had two clients open, one for the paladin to keep judgement up so dont know if that effects anything. (I have 2gb memory)

Say what you say theorycraft wise but I dont believe that you can go below 2.1 character sheet weapon speed without losing overall dps because of stacked haste effects.

I'm just waiting for the haste items so I can pick them all up and spec survival one day, that will be fun.

By the way, you can always proof me wrong by going to Blasted Lands.

I think your old links or pictures were a bit different, where crystalweave even had a slightly better result, but I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say now.
While I am a little bit confused for the moment why the crystalweave cloak is 10 itemlevels higher then the vengeance wrap, I dont understand why now suddenly 2.1 is the lowest possible speed.

I mean, everyone had a steelspine crossbow or even a wolfslayer, and I didnt see any problems with weaving in the steadys, so why would it get worse when you use a haste item to bring you to that speed with the sideeffect that even the steady shot is slightly faster?
#1508SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
You dont see a problem weaving shots, but the actual dps when you use rapid fire and stuff in real enviroment dont make those speeds worth it.

If you see what I mean.

1.5 GCD, 0.5 sec pushback effect + ping = 2.05-2.1 Depending on your connection.
#1509SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3xbjim
possible that hes saying 2.1 because of trying to fit a kill command in?

said he was "using auto/steady + KC macro".. i feel with 2.17 autoshot with ~200ms i cant macro a kill command because of lag or atleast it looks like its being delayed in the quartz swing timer bar.


edit; nm, that makes sense actually and could describe why i cant fit a KC in. 1.5+0.5+0.200 (correct? 200ms) = 2.2
#1510SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Avellyr
You dont see a problem weaving shots, but the actual dps when you use rapid fire and stuff in real enviroment dont make those speeds worth it.

If you see what I mean.

1.5 GCD, 0.5 sec pushback effect + ping = 2.05-2.1 Depending on your connection.
This is a good point. The general rule of thumb I use is I don't want my auto shot speed to be less than steady cast time + .5 + 2*latency (usually 200ms)

I use my average weapon speed, meaning factoring in IaoTH and rapid fire uptimes, since making my other haste useless is counterproductive if I'm trying to increase my dps.

Last edited by Avellyr : 07/10/07 at 12:42 PM.
#1511SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Harwin
Originally Posted by Avellyr View Post
This is a good point. The general rule of thumb I use is I don't want my auto shot speed to be less than steady cast time + .5 + 2*latency (usually 200ms)

I use my average weapon speed, meaning factoring in IaoTH and rapid fire uptimes, since I making my other haste useless is counterproductive if I'm trying to increase my dps.
Do you also use your average steady shot cast speed there?
#1512SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
You dont see a problem weaving shots, but the actual dps when you use rapid fire and stuff in real enviroment dont make those speeds worth it.

If you see what I mean.

1.5 GCD, 0.5 sec pushback effect + ping = 2.05-2.1 Depending on your connection.
Ok, I forgot that you included the possible 0.5 seconds for kill command.
Well, then this would leave 2 questions:

1. Is it a gain or a loss to stay above 2.1 speed to get a perfect kill command once every 5 or 6 seconds in comparison to getting more dps out of the rotation and have it clip once every kill command?

2. Will there be a realistic (in terms of lag) point, where you would have enough haste to say you will not use kill command at all in favor of a perfect and tight rotation and still gain dps?
#1513SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Osse
I'll do some WWS tests with just auto/steady today then, can use Wolfslayer with and without Crystalweave as well.

Will see then.

Massive brainfart in typing.

Last edited by Osse : 07/10/07 at 1:11 PM.
#1514SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Why would you macro KC after Steady Shot? Macro it before. That way you can take advantage of the time where Steady has finished casting but the GCD is still cooling down to get your 0.5s autoshot cast time in.

With 200ms latency, threading KC/Steady macro is hard enough at 2.1 speed, without additional haste effects like IAotH, Rapid Fire, Dragonspine, or Abacus. So I tend to agree with Osse.
#1515SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Relwin
Well when under extreme haste effects (lust, RF, Imp Hawk) the best bet for thus far has been to abandon Steady altogether for the duration. I'll switch to Arcane, Multi, and KC as my skills as I can then still get my two shots out in 2.1 seconds even if it's just two autos since everything is on cooldown. (note I said extreme haste effects there) and sneaking in the arcanes and such is just bonus damage. Only relying on a Steady>Auto rotation means you'll just ignore how good haste can be even with the GCD.

Under normal conditions though, I'm trying to get my autos to under 2.0 with haste rating. I can still use KC then, but I'll only use it when I'm arcaning or multi-ing for ease of clipping avoidance.
#1516SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
The discussion of haste and BM spec came up in the hunter channel last night when i stated that my next upgrade i want is Dragonspine tricket. The other hunters say the haste would be wasted on a BM spec which after reading these forums i believe it will still be an upgrade. After doing a search of the forums on haste and reading tons of post i;m still stumped on were or not it is an true upgrade. I have entered it into Cheeky's spreadsheet with my gear and my dps actually goes down which i believe i read is incorrect in the spreadsheet. My guild has just downed Void reaver and are startign to focus on SSC, My profile is filed out so the question is: I'm i correct in thinking this is an upgrade for me?
#1517SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
The discussion of haste and BM spec came up in the hunter channel last night when i stated that my next upgrade i want is Dragonspine tricket. The other hunters say the haste would be wasted on a BM spec which after reading these forums i believe it will still be an upgrade. After doing a search of the forums on haste and reading tons of post i;m still stumped on were or not it is an true upgrade. I have entered it into Cheeky's spreadsheet with my gear and my dps actually goes down which i believe i read is incorrect in the spreadsheet. My guild has just downed Void reaver and are startign to focus on SSC, My profile is filed out so the question is: I'm i correct in thinking this is an upgrade for me?
I would definitely get Dragonspine if your PC/Latency can handle the increase in shot speed w/o user error. As long as you are not going down to the limitation of the GCD you will be golden.
#1518SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3The Iron Colonel
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
The discussion of haste and BM spec came up in the hunter channel last night when i stated that my next upgrade i want is Dragonspine tricket. The other hunters say the haste would be wasted on a BM spec which after reading these forums i believe it will still be an upgrade. After doing a search of the forums on haste and reading tons of post i;m still stumped on were or not it is an true upgrade. I have entered it into Cheeky's spreadsheet with my gear and my dps actually goes down which i believe i read is incorrect in the spreadsheet. My guild has just downed Void reaver and are startign to focus on SSC, My profile is filed out so the question is: I'm i correct in thinking this is an upgrade for me?
Cheeky's spreadsheet doesn't model the haste proc for Dragonspine, as far as I know, which would explain the apparent loss of dps.

Howitzer is correct; as long as you can cope with variable haste and not drop shots or clip (user error!) and stay above the GCD threshold, all forms of haste will increase your dps (including DST).
#1519SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Cheeky's spreadsheet doesn't model the haste proc for Dragonspine, as far as I know, which would explain the apparent loss of dps.
TIC is correct, all just get is the +AP benefit right now.

I'm working on adding a page just to handle this trinket. It's a real pain in the ass, but I'm going to provide timing/DPS information for 4 sets of haste:
1 - nothing
2 - Just Quick Shots
3 - Just Dragonspine Trophy
4 - Both Quick Shots and Dragonspine Trophy

Once I can get reliable information on the ppm rate for it I should be able to make some rough approximations of uptime for each of those states.
#1520SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3xbjim
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
Why would you macro KC after Steady Shot? Macro it before. That way you can take advantage of the time where Steady has finished casting but the GCD is still cooling down to get your 0.5s autoshot cast time in.
i figured he was using a macro like:

/castsequence Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

or with castrandom.

but either way wouldnt it use kill command before your next auto if it was available? even if the kill command part was above the castsequence?
#1521SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Rokh
While we're on Cheeky's spreadsheet, after plugging in all my gear and such, it's saying Serpentspine Longbow isn't an upgrade for me over something like Barrel-Blade longrifle, due to the speed of the weapon, using a purely auto/steady rotation.

Do other people experience this as well? What are your findings using the Vashj bow vs. Barrel-Blade?
#1522SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Roaran
The constorium blaster will show as more dps than the vashj bow as well in a BM build theorycrafted by a large amount. I could be wrong but it looks like the closer you get to a 1.5 post haste/quiver/SS modification, the more dps you'll see theorycrafted. All things being perfect (human element, latency, not actually moving), your dps will increase the closer you get to 1.5 speed. This is due to the fact that over time, amongst other reasons, you'll get in more steady shots. Actually playing will be likely far different. What you'd have to consider are things like mana consumption, latency, reaction time, and the ability to weave in KC if you want. I think part of the key to playing beastmaster is to individually figure out what post haste/quiver/SS modification attack speed you can handle.
#1523SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Inudemon
I posted this in the "2.1.3 undocumented changes" thread, but I figure more hunters will see it here.

Just got done killing Lurker, pets are completely immune to Spout damage now. They still take damage from Whirl and Geyser, but even so, hunters shouldn't have any problems keeping their pets alive on Lurker anymore.
#1524SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by xbjim View Post
but either way wouldnt it use kill command before your next auto if it was available? even if the kill command part was above the castsequence?
If you put Kill Command before the /castsequence, it will occur before you start casting Steady. Here's what I'm using, for reference:

/cast [target=pet, dead] [pet] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence Steady Shot
#1525SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ezzy
Originally Posted by Inudemon View Post
I posted this in the "2.1.3 undocumented changes" thread, but I figure more hunters will see it here.

Just got done killing Lurker, pets are completely immune to Spout damage now. They still take damage from Whirl and Geyser, but even so, hunters shouldn't have any problems keeping their pets alive on Lurker anymore.

Perfect, that was just a stupid bug
#1526SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Breakerone
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
If you put Kill Command before the /castsequence, it will occur before you start casting Steady. Here's what I'm using, for reference:

/cast [target=pet, dead] [pet] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence Steady Shot
I guess you forgot a ",Autoshot" in your castsequence, but apart from that, are you sure that this always casts the Kill command between auto and steady?

And getting back on the haste items, I played around a bit more.

Lets just say you go crazy and get all hasted items, which would be:

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Bindings of Lightning Reflexes 2.6% haste
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes 3.5% haste
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Band of Devastation 2.9% haste
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Crystalweave Cape 2.5% haste
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fists of Mukoa 3.5% haste
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Valestalker Girdle 3.4% haste

This would bring your autoshot down to 1.75 from 2.9 as a BM. Steady would be around 0.9 secs.

Now for the sake of theorycrafting, lets say you are capable of maintaining the following rotation:

0 Auto cast start
0,5 Auto fire
0,7 Steady cast start
1,6 Steady fire
1,75 Auto cast start
2,25 Auto fire
2,45 Steady cast start
3,35 Steady fire
3,5 Auto cast start
4 Auto fire
4,2 Steady cast start
5,1 Steady fire
5,25 Auto cast start
5,75 Auto fire
5,95 Steady cast start
6,85 Steady fire
7 Auto cast start
7,5 Auto fire
7,7 Steady cast start
8,6 Steady fire
8,75 from beginning

Thats a full 5/5 auto/steady rotation in 8.75 seconds, compared to the 10.5 seconds it would take you without the items.

Now, entering this in my sheet and disregarding other things like IAoth and RF, this ups my dps from 1147 dps to 1376dps. (base was 2050 RAP, 33,5% crit)
While I didnt make the adjustment to my own stats related to the gear exchanges, this example gives a dps increase of 229 dps, while taking away the option to use kill command.

Now with that kind of gear kill command is just a bit above 100dps (all values pre armor), and still trying to use it in that rotation would result in a large total loss.

So, as a little preview of how it might look in 2-3 months, when the larger guilds have their Hyjal and BT gear, it seems kill command might get useless again.

Edit: The sad thing is, you would really need all 6 items to get the large benefit out of it and drop kill command. And the shoulders are BoP and the cape really sucks statwise. The other items are still really nice. But anything in between will result in a mess while trying to maintain kill command and clip autoshots while not getting the superb damage out of the rotation.

Edit 2: If its true that you can use a macro to always do the kill command before a steady without getting any clipping problems, then each item one by one is a large boost.

I think I'll try the macro tonight and also maybe unequip the quiver to get to 1.75 speed under rapid fire to see how it works out.

Last edited by Breakerone : 07/11/07 at 11:00 AM.
#1527SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3The Iron Colonel
Well, this really begs the question of how quickly you can insert KC then steady. Since KC doesn't trigger the GCD, presumably this would be a function of the server client interaction. I'm not as well versed as others at the server-client arrangement, but it seems to me that once you cast KC, you have to wait for the server the acknowledge that it has been cast before you can start steady. Is this not true? If it is, KC has an effective 'cast time' of 2*latency.

Given that the largest gap between the end of steady and beginning of auto is 0.15 seconds, that would require a 2*latency of 0.075 seconds (75 milliseconds). That's not out of the realm of possibility, although it is a pretty good ping. Also, it's worth noting that I'm not including reaction time and client latency in that number, which would probably be a large percentage of 0.15 seconds, further restricting the requisite ping. It's probably not possible in any practical sense to insert KC at that attack speed.

I don't think a macro could cope at that speed, either. Remember, if you use castsequence auto, steady you're going to have the 2*latency problem (server has to confirm cast of one to allow the macro to move forward) which will create all kinds of havoc at such tight timing. I'm not sure how well (or if) the /castrandom Kill Command /cast steady works, but if it requires only 1 keystroke it might work for you.
#1528SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
I also dont believe it will be possible to squeeze a kill command in there, but the point of my post was that I believe it will be the best combination to reach the highest dps as far as the game goes at this moment. Get all +haste gear and drop kill command for a pure auto/steady rotation without rapid fire and without IAoth.
#1529SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I guess you forgot a ",Autoshot" in your castsequence, but apart from that, are you sure that this always casts the Kill command between auto and steady?
The autoshot is intentionally left out of the sequence, I just let it fire on it's own and spam the macro between autos. Kill command will always occur before Steady using that macro, and thus always before auto.
#1530SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
The macro that was posted that goes KC then cast steadyshot is one that requires manual weaving.

A way to macro it without using manual weaving is making two macros. This limits the ability to use KC on cooldown since it generaly requires one auto/steady rotation after the crit has landed to start but it allows you to macro in a KC at fast speeds without relying on arcane shot.

/castsequence Auto Shot, Steady shot

and another

/castsequence Auto Shot, Kill Command, Steady Shot

Spam the first, realize a crit occured, spam second while firing a steady started with the first.
#1531SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Well, this really begs the question of how quickly you can insert KC then steady. Since KC doesn't trigger the GCD, presumably this would be a function of the server client interaction. I'm not as well versed as others at the server-client arrangement, but it seems to me that once you cast KC, you have to wait for the server the acknowledge that it has been cast before you can start steady. Is this not true? If it is, KC has an effective 'cast time' of 2*latency.

Given that the largest gap between the end of steady and beginning of auto is 0.15 seconds, that would require a 2*latency of 0.075 seconds (75 milliseconds). That's not out of the realm of possibility, although it is a pretty good ping. Also, it's worth noting that I'm not including reaction time and client latency in that number, which would probably be a large percentage of 0.15 seconds, further restricting the requisite ping. It's probably not possible in any practical sense to insert KC at that attack speed.

I don't think a macro could cope at that speed, either. Remember, if you use castsequence auto, steady you're going to have the 2*latency problem (server has to confirm cast of one to allow the macro to move forward) which will create all kinds of havoc at such tight timing. I'm not sure how well (or if) the /castrandom Kill Command /cast steady works, but if it requires only 1 keystroke it might work for you.
You could always spend some time at the blasted lands mobs and run the combat log through my timing parser. I've done a bunch of testing with a steady/auto + KC macro and I've been able to average ~1.9s between autoshots with a Don Santos', 5/5 SS and a Crystalweave Cape. When IAotH procs I get down into the ~1.75s range and you can easily see the boost to my dps in a Recount graph.

The questions you guys are asking are easily answered, Recount is an amazing tool. The DPS over time graphs it produces are amazing and take all of the "I think", "it feels like" etc out of the equation. Between Recount and my timing parser I've proved to myself beyond any doubt I do better with a spam macro (I have ~100ms latency). I also can see the effects of procs/timers/etc as DPS spikes and gauge their relative values.

If you aren't running Recount I strongly suggest you get it now. I'd link to my parser but I forget where I posted it!
#1532SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
I don't think a macro could cope at that speed, either. Remember, if you use castsequence auto, steady you're going to have the 2*latency problem (server has to confirm cast of one to allow the macro to move forward) which will create all kinds of havoc at such tight timing. I'm not sure how well (or if) the /castrandom Kill Command /cast steady works, but if it requires only 1 keystroke it might work for you.
I'm not convinced the 2x latency thing people bring up is true. We have made all kinds of assumptions about client->server communication and what the latency displayed in the client are. I've been using a steady/auto + KC spam macro for a long time now and I've never seen delays large enough to support this idea. When my latency does occasionally run high I don't see the delays in steady shot casting after auto that this idea supports.

If the 2x latency idea is right then with 500ms latency my steady shot shouldn't start casting on the server for a full second after auto, and I wont know it is finished for a full 1.5 seconds after I clicked the button. Since my steady casts much faster than 1.5 seconds this would be immediately noticeable.

http://elitistjerks.com/412604-post1489.html
#1533SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
My latency the last 2 nights has been in the 70-132 range going a 30-52 FPS so i dont think i have to worry about lag clipping autoshot with the dragonspine trinket. My guestion is looking at my gear would the trinket be the best upgrade DPS wise with us have void reaver down and no bosses in SSC. The dragonspine trinket goes for huge DKP around 400-500 with us getting about 50 dkp per raid. After seeing other players WWS logs i finally started logging fight to see where i'm doing bad. This thread is a great help for all hunters.
#1534SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Khitana
The number of kills to increase pet loyalty by a level is...

...about 80, I think.

I had my level 70 hunter tame a level 69 cat and then grind Searing Elementals (level 68-69) in the northern part of Blade's Edge Mountains for Motes of Fire.

I had the following pet loyalty increases:

Level 2 at 41206 exp
Level 3 at 82303 exp (41097 more exp)
Level 4 at 123541 exp (41238 more exp)

The cat picked up a little over 500 exp per kill, which works out to be about 80 kills for every increase in level of pet loyalty so far.

The cat needs 194924 exp in all to hit level 70. If this trend continues, the cat should hit Level 5 at 164721 exp and hit level 6 soon after hitting level 70.
#1535SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3mav1234
question about scorpid pets

Hello all, sorry to ask a question more situated for a few posts back...

I apologize if this was answered already; I tried searching for Scorpid Poison Stacking and I read the replies and I didn't see anything relevant. Again, I apologize if this has already been asked

Tonight in Gruul's Lair, two of our BM hunters had Scorpids. Both kept the pets in through most everything, neither pet died. In our WWS, though, one of the hunters scorpids appeared to have almost 0% uptime, while the others uptime was as would be expected (100% more or less, since he healed the pet through caveins and what not).

So my question is, does the poison from a scorpid stack from multiple pets? If so, is it possible that more than one scorpid poison is stacking in such a way that it is crediting the poison applications from both pets to the original applicator, meaning the hunter that ended up with the proper numbers? Or can only one stack of poisons ever be active on the target at one time?
#1536SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by Khitana View Post
...about 80, I think.

I had my level 70 hunter tame a level 69 cat and then grind Searing Elementals (level 68-69) in the northern part of Blade's Edge Mountains for Motes of Fire.

I had the following pet loyalty increases:

Level 2 at 41206 exp
Level 3 at 82303 exp (41097 more exp)
Level 4 at 123541 exp (41238 more exp)

The cat picked up a little over 500 exp per kill, which works out to be about 80 kills for every increase in level of pet loyalty so far.

The cat needs 194924 exp in all to hit level 70. If this trend continues, the cat should hit Level 5 at 164721 exp and hit level 6 soon after hitting level 70.
I'm not sure what causes the loyalty increases,, but i've had my cat "ding" while i was simply fishing in orgrimmar.
So, i can tell you that it's not purely experience related.
#1537SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by mav1234 View Post
Hello all, sorry to ask a question more situated for a few posts back...

I apologize if this was answered already; I tried searching for Scorpid Poison Stacking and I read the replies and I didn't see anything relevant. Again, I apologize if this has already been asked

Tonight in Gruul's Lair, two of our BM hunters had Scorpids. Both kept the pets in through most everything, neither pet died. In our WWS, though, one of the hunters scorpids appeared to have almost 0% uptime, while the others uptime was as would be expected (100% more or less, since he healed the pet through caveins and what not).

So my question is, does the poison from a scorpid stack from multiple pets? If so, is it possible that more than one scorpid poison is stacking in such a way that it is crediting the poison applications from both pets to the original applicator, meaning the hunter that ended up with the proper numbers? Or can only one stack of poisons ever be active on the target at one time?
It works like Ignite did before, the stack applicator gets credit for the damage, even if others help keeping it up.
Seperate ranks can be up at the same time.


Regarding Pet Loyalty:
Pet Loyalty steadily (albeit slowly) increases when your pet is Content (yellow smiley), and faster when pet is Happy (green smiley). Additionally, pets gain Loyalty in some way based on fighting monsters (i.e. linked to experience gain).
With the tracking of Loyalty being as it is (non-existant), getting something more detailed than what's been posted would require a lot of testing, and would probably not be all that helpful, in my opinion :P
The fastest way of letting a pet gain Loyalty is keeping it at Happy and killing monsters (green or above to you).
#1538SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Last night we did Gruul,Void Reaver, and Magtheridon, there were 3 hunters in the raid 2 BM/1MM. We are all similarly geared and finish in the top 5 all night with the 2 rogues with S2 weapons. The other BM hunter beat me every fight, i dont have the logs with me cause i'm at work but he consistly had more autoshots then i did. With SS his attack speed was 2.03 and mine 2.1 so he should have more but not near as many as he is also he doesnt have IAoH like myself. Like i said i dont have the logs but for void reaver he has 125 autos vs 98 for me and Mag he had 93 vs 74 for me. Does this show that i'm clipping alot more then i think i am? We both just 1 auto/1 special rotation with no macros used. I use quartz casting bars for timing purposes. Here is his profile for measure here . My guess is i'm slipping way too many autoshots.
#1539SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
I have a question that I wanted to preface by saying that I have read all 10 pages of the Leotheras 2.1 thread, but I wanted to specifically address this to the BM hunters that frequent this thread.

As BM hunters, have any of you found a consistently effective way to kill the Inner Demons during the Leo fight? I've been starting off with a freezing trap and running to range, popping BW and my CDs, sending my pet in and opening up, using Serpent Sting and Arcane Shot heavily. I call my pet off when the Demon gets low so I get the killing blow.

This works moderately well for me, but it can be close sometimes (and sometimes I fail). The Inner Demons have been pretty difficult for all of the hunters in our raids - mostly because of range issues.

I've been wondering about Snake Traps, but I'm afraid that a snake getting the killing blow will have the same effect as my pet getting the killing blow.

Also, has anyone had any success using Growl or Misdirection?
#1540SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3neko
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
I have a question that I wanted to preface by saying that I have read all 10 pages of the Leotheras 2.1 thread, but I wanted to specifically address this to the BM hunters that frequent this thread.

As BM hunters, have any of you found a consistently effective way to kill the Inner Demons during the Leo fight? I've been starting off with a freezing trap and running to range, popping BW and my CDs, sending my pet in and opening up, using Serpent Sting and Arcane Shot heavily. I call my pet off when the Demon gets low so I get the killing blow.

This works moderately well for me, but it can be close sometimes (and sometimes I fail). The Inner Demons have been pretty difficult for all of the hunters in our raids - mostly because of range issues.

I've been wondering about Snake Traps, but I'm afraid that a snake getting the killing blow will have the same effect as my pet getting the killing blow.

Also, has anyone had any success using Growl or Misdirection?
you can use snake trap, I do all the time I don't bother with freezing trap. I don't even bother with using my pet and yes i'm BM. All I do is once the Inner demon appears I wingclip him and get some distance serpent sting and unload. Also they take more damage from holy/nature spells so thats why I choose snake trap instead of freezing.
#1541SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
I have a question that I wanted to preface by saying that I have read all 10 pages of the Leotheras 2.1 thread, but I wanted to specifically address this to the BM hunters that frequent this thread.
...
Also, has anyone had any success using Growl or Misdirection?
Drop a frost trap (not freezing) and turn Growl on. Then do everything else that you listed. If you have Intimidation, that's a great way to get more threat on your pet, I don't think the demons are immune.
#1542SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
Last night we did Gruul,Void Reaver, and Magtheridon, there were 3 hunters in the raid 2 BM/1MM. We are all similarly geared and finish in the top 5 all night with the 2 rogues with S2 weapons. The other BM hunter beat me every fight, i dont have the logs with me cause i'm at work but he consistly had more autoshots then i did. With SS his attack speed was 2.03 and mine 2.1 so he should have more but not near as many as he is also he doesnt have IAoH like myself. Like i said i dont have the logs but for void reaver he has 125 autos vs 98 for me and Mag he had 93 vs 74 for me. Does this show that i'm clipping alot more then i think i am? We both just 1 auto/1 special rotation with no macros used. I use quartz casting bars for timing purposes. Here is his profile for measure here . My guess is i'm slipping way too many autoshots.
You might want to check your log again. Many people miss the fact that the number of crits is hidden by default, so maybe you only looked at the number of normal autoshots and mabye it evens out a little bit if you add them.
#1543SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
Kaladian, how do his specials per auto's equate. Unless his ratio is very different between the two of you, it's possible he is just engaging slightly earlier (say, after MDing the tank opens with a full burn).
#1544SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Or he could be popping rapid fire and only using instants while you stick to a steady/auto the whole time.
#1545SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Neera
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Inner Demons
I wouldn't waste time dropping a trap, I never do and have no problems killing mine. If BW/Trinket is up I pop both send pet in and hit Intimidation. When the demon gets close to 25%, I pull my pet off and finish the demon with enough time to go back on Leotheras.
#1546SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Neera View Post
I wouldn't waste time dropping a trap, I never do and have no problems killing mine. If BW/Trinket is up I pop both send pet in and hit Intimidation. When the demon gets close to 25%, I pull my pet off and finish the demon with enough time to go back on Leotheras.
To be clear I drop the trap before the whisper even occurs, so most of the time it is useless. However, Leotheras isn't really a DPS race so if demons are what you're struggling with I think you should take advantage of dropping the trap pre-emptively.
#1547SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
Is there any risk from using a Snake Trap... like if the snakes actually finish off the demon? I.e. Do snakes count as pets or do they count, like other traps, as hunter damage?
#1548SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Is there any risk from using a Snake Trap... like if the snakes actually finish off the demon? I.e. Do snakes count as pets or do they count, like other traps, as hunter damage?
Pets, in my experience.
#1549SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Talyx
On last night's raid against Morogrim I had a pretty solid 780ish 5 stack poison up (thanks to wrath of air), but sometimes the damage would spike to 900+. Sorry if it's been posted in this thread before: does Stormstrike only increase the damage of individual dot ticks? If it does, I didn't notice it dropping any charges off the Stormstrike debuff.
#1550SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Redpath
leotheras
A previous poster's suggestion about turning on growl is what I found the most helpful, along with Intimidation. Pull pet out at ~15%. Go for more range rather then less, having to do the joust thing more then 2 times or so becomes a huge time waster.

Misdirects would be better used keeping Leo from tearing into clothies after a WW I would think
#1551SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Twelve
Talyx: As long as Stormstrike is active the DoT will benefit from it without eating the stacks
#1552SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
You could always spend some time at the blasted lands mobs and run the combat log through my timing parser. I've done a bunch of testing with a steady/auto + KC macro and I've been able to average ~1.9s between autoshots with a Don Santos', 5/5 SS and a Crystalweave Cape. When IAotH procs I get down into the ~1.75s range and you can easily see the boost to my dps in a Recount graph.

The questions you guys are asking are easily answered, Recount is an amazing tool. The DPS over time graphs it produces are amazing and take all of the "I think", "it feels like" etc out of the equation. Between Recount and my timing parser I've proved to myself beyond any doubt I do better with a spam macro (I have ~100ms latency). I also can see the effects of procs/timers/etc as DPS spikes and gauge their relative values.

If you aren't running Recount I strongly suggest you get it now. I'd link to my parser but I forget where I posted it!
Figured I'd share some results.

Auto/Steady + KC macro:
Auto shots: 112
Average auto shot: 752.0714285714286
Auto shot damage: 84232
Steady shots: 109
Average steady shot: 829.7155963302753
Steady shot damage: 90439
Average time between auto shots: 1881 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1297 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 2422 ms
Paused combat logging in between sessions, went through a couple mana bars.

Just auto:
Auto shots: 208
Average auto shot: 690.3701923076923
Auto shot damage: 143597
Average time between auto shots: 1790 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1500 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 2203 ms
Manual steady:
Auto shots: 66
Average auto shot: 647.2575757575758
Auto shot damage: 42719
Steady shots: 69
Average steady shot: 763.3478260869565
Steady shot damage: 52671
Average time between auto shots: 1958 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1500 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 3907 ms
Sadly that is about typical for me, I will occasionally clobber an entire auto shot coming out of a quick shots proc. Overall my time between autos when I'm manually threading steadies is slower by about 100ms. Worst part of it IMO is the "stare at these bars" requirement.
#1553SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Regarding Pet Loyalty:
Pet Loyalty steadily (albeit slowly) increases when your pet is Content (yellow smiley), and faster when pet is Happy (green smiley). Additionally, pets gain Loyalty in some way based on fighting monsters (i.e. linked to experience gain).
With the tracking of Loyalty being as it is (non-existant), getting something more detailed than what's been posted would require a lot of testing, and would probably not be all that helpful, in my opinion :P
The fastest way of letting a pet gain Loyalty is keeping it at Happy and killing monsters (green or above to you).
My admittedly anecdotal way to get pet loyalty up as fast as possible is to keep it happy at all times and let it get hurt a lot in battle, with you constantly healing the pet to full. It takes me about 2 hours to get a level 70 pet to loyalty level 2 with this approach.
#1554SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ladwenae
I agree Glau, steady macro is a must for optimal DPS.

And btw thank you for puttin that recount comment in, I installed it yesterday and its just so amazing
#1555SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Just thought I'd post that:

• Rift Stalker Armor: The pet healing set bonus now heals for a percentage of damage dealt by the Hunter

and

• Pets are now affected by Paladin greater blessings.

I hope that is supposed to mean that our pets get the blessing when we get one.
#1556SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
• Rift Stalker Armor: The pet healing set bonus now heals for a percentage of damage dealt by the Hunter
I really hope this isn't a nerf. 2pc makes BM a hell of a lot more viable, particularly in Hyjal.
#1557SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Xoran
This is inherently a nerf, because I think it's save to assume, that the amount of healing should roughly stay the same, but as of now the pet is a selfsustaining unit, even if I'm on the run or hide from some RSTS. With this change I myself have to do damage to heal my pet. No more "fire & forget" ;o)
#1558SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
Well, if the set bonus is 30 hps now it will probably be like 5% of the damage. 600 dps done by hunter is probably the average and thats what it takes to get that 30hps.

If you do 800 dps on your own it's a bit different though...
#1559SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
I could be good and could be bad.
Bad part is, you cant send your pet on the blasted lands mob anymore and just go afk. But that wasnt really important

The good part is, as far as I understand it, the pet gets the heals now "everytime" you do damage, which would make it a lot more consistent and removes the fear of an unlucky noncrit streak. The other good part is, when you are above the average hunter damage, you might get more out it then before.
#1560SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
A thought comes to mind that it might make a Marksman and a Survival Hunter's pet be more viable as well, due to them most often having a higher personal damage output.
#1561SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I could be good and could be bad.
Bad part is, you cant send your pet on the blasted lands mob anymore and just go afk.
Well I guess auto shot is enough with spirit bond to keep the pet healed, but still. It was brilliant bonus for testing.
#1562SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Just thought I'd post that:

• Rift Stalker Armor: The pet healing set bonus now heals for a percentage of damage dealt by the Hunter

and

• Pets are now affected by Paladin greater blessings.

I hope that is supposed to mean that our pets get the blessing when we get one.
I think the greater blessings part is that bless one pet bless them all. I feel that way since there is a pet bar, they act sorta like a 9th (10th?) class.
#1563SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
I think the greater blessings part is that bless one pet bless them all. I feel that way since there is a pet bar, they act sorta like a 9th (10th?) class.
Ok, then that wouldnt help much, cause you would still have to beg them to do it
But well, better then nothing.
#1564SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Chicken
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Ok, then that wouldnt help much, cause you would still have to beg them to do it
But well, better then nothing.
It'd certainly cause me to bless pets, currently I already give pets 5-minute blessings, but not 15-minute ones since that cuts into the reagents as while Greater Blessings do work on pets, they only affect one pet at a time currently. I wouldn't mind giving pets Greater Blessings at all if they affected all pets active (Especially with Greater Blessings being changed to 30 minute duration).
#1565SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shandara
Originally Posted by Chicken View Post
It'd certainly cause me to bless pets, currently I already give pets 5-minute blessings, but not 15-minute ones since that cuts into the reagents as while Greater Blessings do work on pets, they only affect one pet at a time currently. I wouldn't mind giving pets Greater Blessings at all if they affected all pets active (Especially with Greater Blessings being changed to 30 minute duration).
Best thing would be to go back to the old situation, where they were grouped with warriors for blessings.
#1566SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Chicken View Post
(Especially with Greater Blessings being changed to 30 minute duration).
I missed that one, supercool.

I'd also have to admit, that while I still wont use it, Viper Aspect really gets some sense now. If you have buffed 320Int, a wisdom blessing and viper on, you cant go oom in a pure auto/steady rotation. Might still become an option to turn it on with your last 200 mana, when you messed up some pottage.
#1567SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Stefan
Originally Posted by Chicken View Post
It'd certainly cause me to bless pets, currently I already give pets 5-minute blessings, but not 15-minute ones since that cuts into the reagents as while Greater Blessings do work on pets, they only affect one pet at a time currently. I wouldn't mind giving pets Greater Blessings at all if they affected all pets active (Especially with Greater Blessings being changed to 30 minute duration).

can't confirm it yet but i would think its safe to say pet will be affected by the greater blessings on the hunter.
#1568SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Volley: This spell is now affected by area damage caps. Its bonus damage coefficients have also been increased. It also correctly consumes charges of Misdirection.
Should I take this to mean that Volley is going to scale with attack power now? I don't see how else it would make sense to talk about bonus damage coefficients.
#1569SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Volley used to get ~33% of +(Arcane) Spell Damage added (spread across all ticks).
#1570SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
Should I take this to mean that Volley is going to scale with attack power now? I don't see how else it would make sense to talk about bonus damage coefficients.
See, this is frustrating if it's their solution. I don't necessarily want my pet to have the exact same Pally buffs as me. Assuming a raid with 4 pallys in it (like we had last night), my order of preference for my buffs would be Might, Kings, Wisdom, Salvation for me, and Might, Kings, Light, Salvation for my pet.

I wouldn't have ever though my pet would need salvation until my scorpid pulled aggro off of the MT two attempts in a row (with 800+ ticks) on Tidewalker.

I'd rather have my pet get the buffs from the rogues group than the hunter group. I bet they have the pets in their own group (since they have their own raid tab).
#1571SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Volley used to get ~33% of +(Arcane) Spell Damage added (spread across all ticks).
I really hope this isn't what they meant. Ever since 2.0 the class seems to be moving in the direction of not benefitting from spell damage at all. It would be really nice to have a little more to contribute in AoE situations. I guess we will find out soon enough.
#1572SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Serpica, with 800 ticks and lets assume 150 white dps thats 550 dps total (and i think i remember seeing cats usually having about 110 white dps + claw)

So that means your pet is pulling 550 TPS. Now in the warrior TPS spreadsheet they claim warriors can get as much as 1500 TPS in an infinite rage situation using top end gear (weapon skill, ~100 dps onehanders)

Either way, only pulling ~600 tps is incredibly low for a tank.
#1573SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Khitana
The number of kills to increase pet loyalty is

(This is an edited repost)

...about 77, I think.

I had my level 70 hunter tame a level 69 cat and then grind mostly Searing Elementals (level 67-68) in the northern part of Blade's Edge Mountains for Motes of Fire.

I had the following pet loyalty increases:

Loyalty Level 2 at 41206 xp
Loyalty Level 3 at 82303 xp (41097 more xp)
Loyalty Level 4 at 123541 xp (41238 more xp)
Loyalty Level 5 at 164488 xp (40847 more xp)

The cat was picking up 516 xp off level 67 mobs and 560 xp off level 68 mobs (average 533 xp per mob).

Assuming a 50/50 mix of level 67/68 mobs, that's about 77 kills for every increase in Loyalty Level.

The cat hit level 70 at 194924 xp, which is 30436 more xp (57 kills).

After hitting level 70, it should have taken 20 more kills to hit Loyalty Level 6, but it was actually much more than that. I stopped counting at 30 kills.

It took about 45 minutes of grinding between hitting Level 70 and hitting Loyalty Level 6 when it would have only taken 20 kills if the cat was not level 70.

If I had the goal of a level 70 pet with max loyalty level, I'd rather tame a 68-69 pet instead of a 70 pet because xp seems to play a role in gaining loyalty level. A level 70 pet would get a loyalty level every 2-3 hours of grinding.
#1574SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Phanuel
How come they can't figure out a way to make Serpent Sting and Volley actually scale with a stat Hunters use?
#1575SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Phanuel View Post
How come they can't figure out a way to make Serpent Sting and Volley actually scale with a stat Hunters use?
Probably because they haven't thought about it. I'm sure plenty of other classes have similar abilities that just suck, plain and simple (lightwell anyone?).

Seriously, our role is high single target damage with incredible threat control. If our AE came anywhere close to what Warlocks or Mages do we'd be bleeding into their niche. Volley and Explosive Traps provide a nice little bit of added AE effect (although Multi-Shot probably does more total damage.)

Stings, while the focus of multiple talents, really are a forgotten component of the Hunter class, Scorpid excluded. I would definitely prefer our new Scorpid Sting over any higher damaging Serpent Sting. -5% to mob hit is just pure goodness in a raid.
#1576SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Zweibel
I have not seen this posted elsewhere in the thread, but currently on the PTR, the ravagers in the Nethermine are now tamable. As we all know, this could probably change come live but if this holds true, then much rejoicing shall ensue. Personally, I did not enjoy the idea of leveling a ravager from 62 to 70.

Links to proof follow.

Beast Lore says Tamable.
Let the taming begin.
The deed is done.

Last edited by Zweibel : 07/14/07 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Meant PTR, not Live
#1577SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
I guess quite a few will get one of those now as they apparenlty nerfed scorpids.
#1578SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3HgizmO
Hi iam BM now and iam asking what do you think about this macros for 2,03 speed range attack and 2,8 crossbow speed.

first macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()

sec macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

last macro:

/castsequence reset=3/combat/Shift Auto Shot, Arcane Shot(Rank 1), Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot

Need help whit that thx. I need macro for save mana, whit multi and max dps.
#1579SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Harwin
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I guess quite a few will get one of those now as they apparenlty nerfed scorpids.
I looked through the patchnotes for this but didn't see anything. Did I miss something?
#1580SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Well here is the WWS here from our Mag kill last night. As you can see Haral is getting a good number of more autos and steady in even though he isnt specced IAoTH. Also i made a macro so Kill command is cast before every steady shot and it made a big difference. Upsets me that the only reason i beat the other hunter was my crit rate which tooltip is only about 4% but this kill it was 10% in RL. Any ideas why he gets so many more autos in, this happens every raid. Should i be starting my SS/Auto cycle with auto instead of SS?
#1581SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
Originally Posted by Harwin View Post
I looked through the patchnotes for this but didn't see anything. Did I miss something?
No you didnt, my info source was wrong.
#1582SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ladwenae
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I guess quite a few will get one of those now as they apparenlty nerfed scorpids.
I leveled a ravager ( hit 70 with it sunday... ) and the other day while I was testing recount ( that addon just rocks btw ) I tried to see what difference in DPS the ravager did compared to my owl.
Well from those tests ( was around 6 minutes each using BW and RF when up ) the ravager did 340 DPS and the Owl did 320 DPS both had thier abilities on auto.

My conclusion from this is that my raid pet for now will be either scorpid or owl, I just dont feel upping my DPS with 20 is worth the -210 AP debuff, but do any of you know if these pets in a raid buffed situation will differ more in DPS?

P.S. The DPS on the pets is off course higher than in a raid situation since it was tested on the low lvl mobs in blasted lands.
#1583SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
• Rift Stalker Armor: The pet healing set bonus now heals for a percentage of damage dealt by the Hunter
Just tested this out on the PTR and it has not yet been changed. It still healed within 172-198 range and it proc'ced when I was not attacking.

Strange...
#1584SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Daxxiz
Originally Posted by Zweibel View Post
I have not seen this posted elsewhere in the thread, but as of the latest patch (2.1.3), the ravagers in the Nethermine are now tamable. As we all know, this could probably change come live but if this holds true, then much rejoicing shall ensue. Personally, I did not enjoy the idea of leveling a ravager from 62 to 70.

Links to proof follow.

Beast Lore says Tamable.
Let the taming begin.
The deed is done.
Was this on a live server or the PTR? I wasn't sure based on your post and I just ventured down to tame one and couldn't.
#1585SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
Serpica, with 800 ticks and lets assume 150 white dps thats 550 dps total (and i think i remember seeing cats usually having about 110 white dps + claw)

So that means your pet is pulling 550 TPS. Now in the warrior TPS spreadsheet they claim warriors can get as much as 1500 TPS in an infinite rage situation using top end gear (weapon skill, ~100 dps onehanders)

Either way, only pulling ~600 tps is incredibly low for a tank.
Well, he's our MT (in 4 peices of T5) and we've cleared SSC and are 2/4 in The Eye... so I'm assuming I'm just plain wrong. I'm not sure why Tidewalker targeted my scorpid and one-shotted him on those attempts then, but my pet definitely showed up as his target for that brief second.

Glad to hear that I shouldn't have to worry about getting Salv on my pet under any likely raiding conditions.
#1586SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3sasukekun
Originally Posted by Daxxiz View Post
Was this on a live server or the PTR? I wasn't sure based on your post and I just ventured down to tame one and couldn't.
It should be on live (2.1.3). PTR is 2.2 afaik.

Also did you try taming the smaller ones (like the ones in the screenshot), not the big ones.
#1587SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by sasukekun View Post
It should be on live (2.1.3). PTR is 2.2 afaik.
Also did you try taming the smaller ones (like the ones in the screenshot), not the big ones.
The screenshot shows "Alt-left click for feedback." so it must be the PTR.
#1588SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3sasukekun
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
The screenshot shows "Alt-left click for feedback." so it must be the PTR.
Ya, I just tried it on live. Doesnt work, shows Ravager as "Cannot be Tamed"
#1589SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zweibel
Apologies, I meant the PTR. Edited the post to make more sense. But yeah, they were tamable yesterday. Whether that still holds true today is another mystery though.
#1590SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3HgizmO
Can somone help me with my question posted 12 replays back?
#1591SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Noah
I hope so. I'm glad I didn't level my 64 ravager any further, quicker this patch goes live the better.

Does anyone have any numbers on the T5 2 piece bonus yet, or is it still the same as live?
#1592SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Corwyn
I have seen macros in this thread with the following commands:

/castrandom Kill Command
and
/castsequence Steady Shot

Both with only one spell. How are these better than a simple /cast command? What is the benefit which overcomes the presumed added overhead?

Thank You Kindly.
#1593SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3senior toasted bread
Originally Posted by Noah View Post
I hope so. I'm glad I didn't level my 64 ravager any further, quicker this patch goes live the better.

Does anyone have any numbers on the T5 2 piece bonus yet, or is it still the same as live?
Still same as live, as of 10 minutes ago when i checked.
#1594SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Moridin
Originally Posted by Corwyn View Post
I have seen macros in this thread with the following commands:

/castrandom Kill Command
and
/castsequence Steady Shot

Both with only one spell. How are these better than a simple /cast command? What is the benefit which overcomes the presumed added overhead?

Thank You Kindly.
The steady shot is to my knowledge not better in any way done like that, but the kill command is, not sure why but castrandom has higher priority for the game then just cast.
#1595SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trieste
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Just thought I'd post that:
• Pets are now affected by Paladin greater blessings.

I hope that is supposed to mean that our pets get the blessing when we get one.
-I did the test tonight. And the answer is: no :'(
I think now pets are taken into account like a class.

-The new viper is better for farming but in raid...

-Ravager was tamable
#1596SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Lysander1
Very glad the Ravager is tamable. Next question is.. can you get into the area if you don't have the epic flyer (and thus cannot assume peon form)?
#1597SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Djinn
Originally Posted by Lysander1 View Post
Very glad the Ravager is tamable. Next question is.. can you get into the area if you don't have the epic flyer (and thus cannot assume peon form)?
Don't need a epic flying mount or even a flying mount(Summon if need be to get pet) to get into the area, just need a epic flying mount to start the quest line rep series for netherwing.
#1598SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Hunterlin
Only problem without netherwing quest and epic mount that all mobs there will be hostile to you. I have not looked if mistress guards at entrance are elite or not.
#1599SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kash
1. take a trash pet.
2. let pet attack
3. run as far as you can
4. pet dies
5. feign death
6. tame your new pet

That should work, I guess
#1600SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3erb
Originally Posted by HgizmO View Post
Hi iam BM now and iam asking what do you think about this macros for 2,03 speed range attack and 2,8 crossbow speed.

first macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()

sec macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

last macro:

/castsequence reset=3/combat/Shift Auto Shot, Arcane Shot(Rank 1), Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot

Need help whit that thx. I need macro for save mana, whit multi and max dps.
Well, if you are BM spc with a 2.8 speed weapon and you want to maximize DPS you shouldn't even use multi shot or arcane shot. Just delete everything in your castsequence macro after "Auto Shot, Steady Shot"
#1601SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Relwin
Originally Posted by erb View Post
Well, if you are BM spc with a 2.8 speed weapon and you want to maximize DPS you shouldn't even use multi shot or arcane shot. Just delete everything in your castsequence macro after "Auto Shot, Steady Shot"
Yep, using higher damage shots in rotation to do more damage is sure to be a very bad thing. Good luck with velcroing your shoes on in the morning and whatnot.

Moron.

He said he needs macros for three situations. Steady>Auto will cover his need to save mana situation, but the other two obviously have different requirements.
#1602SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3erb
Originally Posted by Relwin View Post
Yep, using higher damage shots in rotation to do more damage is sure to be a very bad thing. Good luck with velcroing your shoes on in the morning and whatnot.

Moron.

He said he needs macros for three situations. Steady>Auto will cover his need to save mana situation, but the other two obviously have different requirements.
I helped him with one of his questions, what exactly did you help with? Moron.
#1603SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Relwin
Except you said to maximize his DPS to just use a steady>auto rotation. Which on all bosses in the game means you are giving up potential DPS.

While it is true that on some bosses (solarian, RoS, Teron) using arcane is a net loss of damage for your GCD, multi is just more damaging than steady. And while I don't personally use shot macros as I feel it cheapens the raiding experience and is overall a crutch, if someone really wants to use them then at least give them the correct answer.

So, for max dps you'll only want to use one GCD causing skill between autos and KC when it's up. Preferably, KC before your shot so you don't clip autos at the end. If you're marks or survival the answer changes a little.
#1604SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Hunterlin
Marks and survival have completely different Shot rotation from BM.
BM use only one special (and KC if available) between autos because of BM haste talent.
Marks and Survival use 6 specials on every 4 auto shots(max specials cycle).
Look for shot cycle example in Cheeky's spreadsheet.
#1605SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ailee
Originally Posted by Kash View Post
1. take a trash pet.
2. let pet attack
3. run as far as you can
4. pet dies
5. feign death
6. tame your new pet

That should work, I guess
Aspect of the Cheetah with Invisibility potions work wonders too. Once you get to the split, go right and there's only the slimes which are much easier to deal with instead of the 4-5 Orcs you'd get otherwise.
#1606SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Burnstein
I'm curious to know that, if u have imp aoth procd and rapid fire used, would it be better to just auto shoot and not steady shot, if ur atk spd goes under the 1.6 global crab.
#1607SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3cipro
Originally Posted by Burnstein View Post
I'm curious to know that, if u have imp aoth procd and rapid fire used, would it be better to just auto shoot and not steady shot, if ur atk spd goes under the 1.6 global crab.
1.5 second global crab, yes. It would be better to focus on arcane, multishot and kill command only at that time no matter what spec you are. Common problem as BM since rapid fire puts you around or below 1.5 attack speed.

1.7 atk speed with latency and human reflexes is just about as fast as the average player can pump out a perfect steady auto rotation anyway before auto shots start to get delayed.
#1608SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Jerem
I've seen the calculations on different trinkets' average AP gain, that were made a couple of pages back .
I assume this is in case you equip the trinket, and leave it there for the entire duration of the fight (hence the "/ Cooldown Time" part).

For about one week now, I have been swapping two trinkets in my upper trinket slot (I swap the Brooch and the Abacus, and I keep my Hourglass in the lower slot).
With the 2 minutes cooldown on most +AP trinkets, I believe that the optimal rotation would consist of three trinkets (counting the 30 sec "on equip" cooldown, each trinket only needs to stay in your bag 1min30 before you equip it again, and 1min30 is 3 FD/trinket swap).

The two trinkets I have been using in my "trinket rotation" so far are Bloodlust Brooch (used in combination with BW, and +APdrums when up) and Abacus of Violent Odds (used together with RF, and +haste drums when up : since I stop using SS during RF, I thought some additional haste couldn't hurt).
I am however uncertain which trinket should be the third one in my rotation.

I selected the Crystalforged Trinket (Ogri'la rep.) and Earthstrike (lvl60 Cenarion Circle rep.), which are the two trinkets at my disposal with the highest +AP effect when used.
Would the +7 weapon damage of the Crystalforged Trinket make up for the 10 sec only duration, if you compared it to Earthstrike, that has a longer On Use duration, but no passive bonus ?

Trinkets such as the Tsunami Talisman might make my little trinket rotation pointless, but it will take me a couple more weeks before I can hope having access to it, and I don't plan on giving up optimizing my damage output until then.

Last edited by Jerem : 07/16/07 at 7:34 AM.
#1609SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shandara
Originally Posted by Jerem View Post
For about one week now, I have been swapping two trinkets in my upper trinket slot (I swap the Brooch and the Abacus, and I keep my Hourglass in the lower slot).
With the 2 minutes cooldown on most +AP trinkets, I believe that the optimal rotation would consist of three trinkets (counting the 30 sec "on equip" cooldown, each trinket only needs to stay in your bag 1min30 before you equip it again, and 1min30 is 3 FD/trinket swap).
Well, you can't really swap it out during the time the trinket effect is on (FD would waste some of the time). 2 trinkets works best in my experience, since there's always some interruption or movement required which messes up the rotation.
#1610SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Jerem
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
Well, you can't really swap it out during the time the trinket effect is on (FD would waste some of the time). 2 trinkets works best in my experience, since there's always some interruption or movement required which messes up the rotation.
Trinket-swapping (in a systematic way) is quite new to me.
And because I didn't want to take too much risk with it, I only experimented it on content that my guild is perfectly comfortable farming. And I have to say I found myself waiting for my trinket to be ready a couple of times (we're talking 10-20 sec waiting).

This is what lead me to the "3 trinkets rotation" suggestion.

I guess this is where theorycrafting meets real situations.
3 trinkets rotations might require too much of a perfect and ideal situation to actually work.

Thanks for your remark
#1611SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Ishmaael
My problem with this whole /cooldown trinket swapping scheme is the potential for loss. Each feign makes you lose 1 autoshot, and logically a certain amount of stats (because your other trinkets arent going to be quite as good in the passive department, are they?). I'm not sure if the possibility of having that extra 200AP for 15 second gain is worth the loss of 900 damage from an auto, and most of the higher end trinket's arent a use but a proc, which means you're choosing your swapping over say a tsunami talisman, or a dragonspine.
#1612SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Sapa
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
My problem with this whole /cooldown trinket swapping scheme is the potential for loss. Each feign makes you lose 1 autoshot, and logically a certain amount of stats (because your other trinkets arent going to be quite as good in the passive department, are they?). I'm not sure if the possibility of having that extra 200AP for 15 second gain is worth the loss of 900 damage from an auto, and most of the higher end trinket's arent a use but a proc, which means you're choosing your swapping over say a tsunami talisman, or a dragonspine.
Good practice for trinket swapping is to have "activated" ones on at start. You *must* FD few (20-30) seconds into en counter and then second FD when its up right?

Use trinkets on start, nuke away (BW+Scorpid posion if you are doing it) FD at ~10-20k tank aggro where you catch him.
With Trinket Menu switch is automatic as soon as you exit combat so "switch time" is minimal. And there is no loss since you had to FD anyway due aggro issues.
#1613SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Jerem
Originally Posted by Sapa View Post
Good practice for trinket swapping is to have "activated" ones on at start. You *must* FD few (20-30) seconds into en counter and then second FD when its up right?

Use trinkets on start, nuke away (BW+Scorpid posion if you are doing it) FD at ~10-20k tank aggro where you catch him.
With Trinket Menu switch is automatic as soon as you exit combat so "switch time" is minimal. And there is no loss since you had to FD anyway due aggro issues.
This is exactly how I see it : I have to FD anyway. The potential loss, however, might reside in calling back the pet so that one of its attacks doesn't keep you in combat (1-2 auto-attacks and 1 special might be lost that way) .

And, @Ishmael, I also agree that at your level of itemization, the quality of the trinkets does that you have more benefit leaving them the way they are rather than losing shots/pet attacks to swap them with something less efficient.
The autoshot I "lose", for instance, is 600 dmg only, and not 900 (guild just started 25man content, Gruul not down yet).
#1614SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kolusius
The way I went with things was to put one point in rapid killing, and skip the trinket swapping entirely. I've tried in the past, and I just can't reliably switch trinkets and feel like I have anything to show for it.

With one point in rapid killing, your rapid cool down coincides with your trinket/TBW cool downs, so you get one trinket/wrath/rapid, and one trinket/wrath. When I had both points, or no points in rapid killing, my rapid cooldown would always be out of sync with my trinket and tbw, and I'd find myself either waiting to stack cooldowns, or using rapid by itself, which doesn't pack the same punch as stacking all three.

On an unrelated tangent, my raid wants me to check out survival next week, so I'll lose one of those cooldowns. I'm not too excited about it, I've never really been a survival fan, but at the same time it will be nice to try out something new! I am not, however, looking forward to sticking two specials between autoshots again.
#1615SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cranch
Originally Posted by cipro View Post
1.5 second global crab, yes. It would be better to focus on arcane, multishot and kill command only at that time no matter what spec you are. Common problem as BM since rapid fire puts you around or below 1.5 attack speed.
Well, that's not what Cheeky's spreadsheet shows, and not what I do in practice. With my gear and rapidfire, I get 1612 nominal spreadsheet dps with a steady/auto rotation and 1306 dps with a multi/auto/arcane/auto/auto... until arcane is ready. (You need to look at the normal dps numbers only for this analysis.)

Put another way, the highest dps rotation for BM's (and high-haste MM/Surv's) is special/auto which will curve up to reach a maximum dps as your haste increases. Yes, you should ALWAYS interleave a special with an auto. Then that dps value remains constant until around +1800 or so haste rating, when a pure autoshot rotation finally exceeds the dps of a special/auto rotation.

1.7 atk speed with latency and human reflexes is just about as fast as the average player can pump out a perfect steady auto rotation anyway before auto shots start to get delayed.
My mousewheeled macro and carpal-tunneled finger disagrees with you 8-).
#1616SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
My mousewheeled macro and carpal-tunneled finger disagrees with you 8-).
Parse a combat log, I will be really surprised if you get much closer than 1.7s between auto shots while still interleaving a special. You might be surprised what you find as well (you are clipping an didn't even know it).

Originally Posted by Kolusius View Post
With one point in rapid killing, your rapid cool down coincides with your trinket/TBW cool downs, so you get one trinket/wrath/rapid, and one trinket/wrath. When I had both points, or no points in rapid killing, my rapid cooldown would always be out of sync with my trinket and tbw, and I'd find myself either waiting to stack cooldowns, or using rapid by itself, which doesn't pack the same punch as stacking all three.
I've found that rapid fire really hasn't been worth it.

At a 1.93 auto speed rapid fire takes me down to 1.38. This gives me 0.725 shots per second.

Since I can only really use multi and arcane.

Multi is 1 shot every 10.5 seconds or 0.095 shots per second.

Arcane is 1 shot every 6 seconds or 0.167 shots per second.

All together this gets me to 0.987 shots per second.

When I am running just auto special rotation I've got 2 shots per 1.93 seconds which comes out to 1.036 shots per second.

Long story short, rapid fire is counter productive if you are BM and have a fast weapon

Last edited by Glaurong : 07/16/07 at 3:53 PM.
#1617SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Parse a combat log, I will be really surprised if you get much closer than 1.7s between auto shots while still interleaving a special. You might be surprised what you find as well (you are clipping an didn't even know it).



I've found that rapid fire really hasn't been worth it.

At a 1.93 auto speed rapid fire takes me down to 1.38. This gives me 0.725 shots per second.

Since I can only really use multi and arcane.

Multi is 1 shot every 10.5 seconds or 0.095 shots per second.

Arcane is 1 shot every 6 seconds or 0.167 shots per second.

All together this gets me to 0.987 shots per second.

When I am running just auto special rotation I've got 2 shots per 1.93 seconds which comes out to 1.036 shots per second.

Long story short, rapid fire is counter productive if you are BM and have a fast weapon
I'm finding this out as well. In practice BM Hunters just don't have the flexibility to use the massive haste of Rapid Fire (and [Dragonspine Trophy]) unless you can really handle foricbly clipping your auto shots. It feels odd doing it, when you spend the other part of your time avoiding it.

I still use my racial Berserk, since that 10% gain isn't too much of a difference. I know theoretically piling on haste and then forcing clips when you can't use instants is better, but I can't get that to match up with my raid logs. I seem to do less DPS with Rapid Fire because of this.

Haste itemization may bring MM spec back in line in overall DPS with BM (as would the more obvious answer, faster weapons) while also allowing for more mana efficiency. But it seems like you only get 1/2 way there right now.
#1618SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Long story short, rapid fire is counter productive if you are BM and have a fast weapon
What about continuing your special/auto rotation when rapid fire is up? Instead of 2 shots every 1.93 seconds, you would get 2 shots every 1.7 seconds, or however fast you can spam steadies. That would be more DPS than without rapid fire.

Contrary to what some may expect, it actually gets much easier to maintain an auto/steady rotation when your autoshot speed gets down under 1.5. Unless you are using a weapon with a super fast base attack speed, your steady shot will be down under 1 second when your autoshot gets down to 1.5. Your autoshots will fire .5 after your steady finishes, but before your GCD is done. Because of this you can pound your steady button relentlessly with no chance you will ever mess up and insert more than 1 steady between autoshots.
#1619SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
What about continuing your special/auto rotation when rapid fire is up? Instead of 2 shots every 1.93 seconds, you would get 2 shots every 1.7 seconds, or however fast you can spam steadies. That would be more DPS than without rapid fire.
I agree, the only thing that could cause you to shoot slower while a haste effect is active is changing your rotation to a less effective one.
#1620SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Glaurong
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
What about continuing your special/auto rotation when rapid fire is up? Instead of 2 shots every 1.93 seconds, you would get 2 shots every 1.7 seconds, or however fast you can spam steadies. That would be more DPS than without rapid fire.

Contrary to what some may expect, it actually gets much easier to maintain an auto/steady rotation when your autoshot speed gets down under 1.5. Unless you are using a weapon with a super fast base attack speed, your steady shot will be down under 1 second when your autoshot gets down to 1.5. Your autoshots will fire .5 after your steady finishes, but before your GCD is done. Because of this you can pound your steady button relentlessly with no chance you will ever mess up and insert more than 1 steady between autoshots.
I left IAotH out of the picture to make the explanation simpler. However when I have hawk up my average time between auto shots is just about 1.7s while interleaving specials/steadies.

They really need to take a stab at fixing our auto shot mechanics. I find myself in a situation where one of my neat class abilities is worthless and pretty much every weapon is a side grade unless I can stack ~10% haste. Whoever designed the end game weapons needs to update the damn templates and drop some 2.6, 2.7s weapons out there.

A 22 dps upgrade is not an upgrade if I fire 10% less shots over time.

Edit:

P.S. They also need to re itemize the tiered armor away from int. Marks is not the default raiding build anymore, we don't need that much int.

P.P.S. I also wouldn't mind if demon stalker had a worthwhile set bonus so I could take that crap out of the bank and shelf my Beast Lord I've been wearing for 6 months. 600 amor penetration > 4 pieces of demon stalker.

Last edited by Glaurong : 07/16/07 at 5:04 PM.
#1621SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Harwin
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
I agree, the only thing that could cause you to shoot slower while a haste effect is active is changing your rotation to a less effective one.
The reason I don't use Rapid Fire is because it a)eats mana and b)eats a GCD. Although I do more damage with rapid fire up than without, I'm not sure it's worth the mana / lost GCD.
(My attack speed is about 1.9 so at best it gives me 10 shots at 1.5 speed in those 15 seconds vs. 7.9 without. So 2.1 extra shots, but no GCD means it's a very expensive 1.1 shots (and if Hawk triggers in there it's a waste)

Once I get a slower ranged weapon(any kara weapon... 4 months and no drops makes me sad) the equation may change.
#1622SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Tibor
I'm presently unable to log into Warcraft, so I'd rate my certainty at only 75% that Rapid Fire does not reset the GCD.
#1623SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Inudemon
Originally Posted by Tibor View Post
I'm presently unable to log into Warcraft, so I'd rate my certainty at only 75% that Rapid Fire does not reset the GCD.
Rapid Fire definitely does not use a GCD.
#1624SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Galred
As a BM hunter I find myself using Rapid Fire still, but situationally:

1) With Heroism/Bloodlust. Quite often I'll have this plus Quick Shots, so I merely kick off Rapid Fire and go to a Arcane/Multi/KC rotation until all that stuff wears off. An example of this would be the adds on Magtheridon.

2) When I'm at low mana and Wisdom is judged on the mob, I'll hit Rapid Fire and just autoshot to regen mana. This doesn't happen very often (mana pots are your friend) but it's not bad.

3) For when I need a short burst of "faster" dps as opposed to consistent dps. A good example is the Spitfire Totems on the first mob we kill at Fathom Lord; I use BW on the first one, my AP trinket on the second one, and Rapid Fire on the third one. I'm using Multi/Arcane on the totems anyway, so losing the Auto/Steady rotation isn't so bad.
#1625SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ato
On the topic of Hastes.

I have a Hunter in my raid group who seems to think using Aimed Shot while hastes are up in place of a Steady Shot will net more DPS. I'm convinced that this is not true, but am wondering if someone has a spare moment to run over the numbers for me.

I believe it wont be more DPS due to resetting the Auto shot and effectively losing at least one Auto shot.

He says he uses Aimed when he has Rapid Fire, Abacus of Violent Odds, and Troll Berz racial active. Using a Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle. He is BM spec with 5/5 Serpent Swiftness.

With these hastes active, and ignoring Berz for now, as with the first two the speed is already below GCD, we have an Auto speed of 1.12; Aimed cast of 1.45; and, a Steady cast of 0.6 seconds.

On Gruul his average damage per shot (after reduction, based on WWS parses) is:
Auto 545
Steady 566
Aimed 1278
Multi 705
Arcane 678

So, is anyone able to run the numbers to see if using Aimed is justified under those hastes?
#1626SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Cranch
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Parse a combat log, I will be really surprised if you get much closer than 1.7s between auto shots while still interleaving a special. You might be surprised what you find as well (you are clipping an didn't even know it).
Well, here's the output of my log parser. I couldn't get the .jar file posted earlier to work, so I wrote my own in C++.

1221 steady shots at a mean interval of 1.89207 seconds.
1251 auto shots at a mean interval of 1.89753 seconds.
81 multi shots at a mean interval of 13.8389 seconds.
27 arcane shots at a mean interval of 6.625 seconds.

Histogram of interval between steady shots

1.3   1
1.4   27
1.5   116
1.6   168
1.7   169
1.8   196
1.9   133
2     75
2.1   33
2.2   10
2.3   11
2.4   3
2.5   2
2.6   2
2.7   1
2.8   3
2.9   3
3     9
3.1   8
3.2   24
3.3   15
3.4   13
3.5   4
3.6   3
3.7   4
3.8   2
3.9   2

Histogram of interval between auto shots

1.2   19
1.3   27
1.4   61
1.5   62
1.6   111
1.7   111
1.8   223
1.9   117
2     117
2.1   34
2.2   28
2.3   22
2.4   15
2.5   15
2.6   20
2.7   9
2.8   11
2.9   3
3     10
3.1   5
3.2   8
3.3   2
3.4   6
3.5   6
3.6   6
3.8   3
3.9   2
Note the histogram bins are properly centered, so bin 2.9, e.g., really means [2.85, 2.95).

The short steady shots were interesting, so I searched for them:

Unusually fast steady shots
7/8 13:42:54.390  Your Steady Shot hits The Lurker Below for 573.
7/8 13:42:55.750  Your Steady Shot crits The Lurker Below for 1212.
Unusually fast steady shots
7/8 13:52:14.328  Your Steady Shot hits The Lurker Below for 636.
7/8 13:52:15.718  Your Steady Shot hits The Lurker Below for 631.
Unusually fast steady shots
7/8 14:12:17.140  Your Steady Shot hits The Lurker Below for 626.
7/8 14:12:18.531  Your Steady Shot hits The Lurker Below for 621.
Unusually fast steady shots
7/8 15:44:34.390  Your Steady Shot hits Coilfang Priestess for 778.
7/8 15:44:35.734  Your Steady Shot hits Coilfang Priestess for 688.
Unusually fast steady shots
7/8 16:02:45.859  Your Steady Shot hits Coilfang Ambusher for 549.
7/8 16:02:47.234  Your Steady Shot hits Coilfang Ambusher for 585.
Unusually fast steady shots
7/8 17:02:50.859  Your Steady Shot hits The Lurker Below for 614.
7/8 17:02:52.234  Your Steady Shot hits The Lurker Below for 491. (54 blocked)
My latency typically is around 50-100msec on raids. Also, my default speed is 1.91 seconds with my current haste gear.

I'd be very interested in what you conclude from the above parse. Or let me know what other information I should extract.

I've found that rapid fire really hasn't been worth it.

At a 1.93 auto speed rapid fire takes me down to 1.38. This gives me 0.725 shots per second.

Since I can only really use multi and arcane.

Multi is 1 shot every 10.5 seconds or 0.095 shots per second.

Arcane is 1 shot every 6 seconds or 0.167 shots per second.

All together this gets me to 0.987 shots per second.

When I am running just auto special rotation I've got 2 shots per 1.93 seconds which comes out to 1.036 shots per second.

Long story short, rapid fire is counter productive if you are BM and have a fast weapon
Hmm, that doesn't make sense to me. At a speed of 1.38 I get an auto and special off every 1.5 seconds (ignoring latency.) At a speed of 1.93 I get an auto and special off every 1.93 seconds. How can you conclude that rapid fire is counterproductive?

About the only way it would be counterproductive is that it costs mana and doesn't benefit you if you're already at a speed of 1.50 or less. (Let me be clear I'm talking about a special/auto rotation here.)

Last edited by Cranch : 07/17/07 at 2:47 AM.
#1627SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
My latency typically is around 50-100msec on raids. Also, my default speed is 1.91 seconds with my current haste gear.

I'd be very interested in what you conclude from the above parse. Or let me know what other information I should extract.

...

Hmm, that doesn't make sense to me. At a speed of 1.38 I get an auto and special off every 1.5 seconds (ignoring latency.) At a speed of 1.93 I get an auto and special off every 1.93 seconds. How can you conclude that rapid fire is counterproductive?

About the only way it would be counterproductive is that it costs mana and doesn't benefit you if you're already at a speed of 1.50 or less. (Let me be clear I'm talking about a special/auto rotation here.)
Your parse is pretty much what was expected. When everything is perfect, timing, latency, server is free to process your key press immediately, you can interleave a special between a 1.5s auto shot. In practice the lowest this number will average is about 1.7s depending on your connection etc.

In practice you cannot ignore latency, human reaction time, rhythm keeping skill.

So to really make effective use of rapid fire in an extreme haste situation you can either

1) Hammer your steady key/macro will will result in ~1.7s between autos.

2) Hammer your steady key/macro and attempt to slot multi and arcane when their CD is up. If you don't screw this up (making decisions on a second by second basis on what button you need to mash, taking into account multiple cools, an extremely fast auto shot and the global cooldown) you will drop to ~1.6 between autos at best (averaged over the 15 seconds).

It's not impossible but it isn't practical and the way most people use rapid fire (drop to using instants only) gets them nothing. If they are using it like this along with their trinkets and cool downs, they really lose out.

Edit: Some in-game examples.

Auto Only - 2.4 speed bow, 5/5 SS, 15% quiver, 2.5% haste, 5/5 IAotH
Average time between auto shots: 1590 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1281 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 2031 ms
Auto/Steady - 2.4 speed bow, 5/5 SS, 15% quiver, 2.5% haste, 5/5 IAotH
Average time between auto shots: 1742 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1281 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 2218 ms
Auto Only - 2.7 speed gun, 5/5 SS, 15% quiver, 2.5% haste, 5/5 IAotH
Average time between auto shots: 1760 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1500 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 2125 ms
Auto/Steady - 2.7 speed gun, 5/5 SS, 15% quiver, 2.5% haste, 5/5 IAotH
Average time between auto shots: 1728 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1406 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 2156 ms
This was all now, at 2 AM sub 100ms latency.

Edit2 - Although I did manage to produce this once:

Auto/Steady - 2.4 speed bow, 5/5 SS, 15% quiver, 2.5% haste, 5/5 IAotH, Rapid Fire
Average time between auto shots: 1538 ms
Minimum time between auto shots: 1187 ms
Maximum time between auto shots: 2000 ms
7/17 01:54:21.703  You gain Rapid Fire.
7/17 01:54:22.796  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 742.
7/17 01:54:23.781  Your Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 386. (49 blocked)
7/17 01:54:24.312  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 290.
7/17 01:54:25.312  Your Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 428.
7/17 01:54:25.718  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 280.
7/17 01:54:26.796  Your Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 411.
7/17 01:54:27.031  You gain Quick Shots.
7/17 01:54:27.453  Your Auto Shot crits Dr. Boom for 726.
7/17 01:54:28.343  Your Steady Shot crits Dr. Boom for 950.
7/17 01:54:28.640  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 324.
7/17 01:54:29.859  Your Steady Shot crits Dr. Boom for 955.
7/17 01:54:30.250  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 316.
7/17 01:54:31.765  Your Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 419.
7/17 01:54:32.250  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 284.
7/17 01:54:32.750  Your Romulo's Poison hits Dr. Boom for 331 Nature damage.
7/17 01:54:33.343  Your Steady Shot crits Dr. Boom for 917.
7/17 01:54:33.765  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 317.
7/17 01:54:34.875  Your Steady Shot crits Dr. Boom for 988.
7/17 01:54:35.078  Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 301.
7/17 01:54:36.765  Your Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 422.
7/17 01:54:38.937  Quick Shots fades from you.

Last edited by Glaurong : 07/17/07 at 4:58 AM.
#1628SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Empala
I was browsing wowhead this morning and found;

Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste - Spells - World of Warcraft

Does anyone know if it affects ranged? I guess so, but I just wanted to make sure.
And how will it weigh up against 15agi?


(Apologies if this has been asked before, I did use the search. )

Last edited by Empala : 07/17/07 at 9:28 AM. Reason: comparison
#1629SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
Originally Posted by Ato View Post
I have a Hunter in my raid group who seems to think using Aimed Shot while hastes are up in place of a Steady Shot will net more DPS. I'm convinced that this is not true, but am wondering if someone has a spare moment to run over the numbers for me.
Not even going to go into the math behind this falacy, answer is no. Not even close.
#1630SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ailee
Originally Posted by Empala View Post
I was browsing wowhead this morning and found;

Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste - Spells - World of Warcraft

Does anyone know if it affects ranged? I guess so, but I just wanted to make sure.
And how will it weigh up against 15agi?


(Apologies if this has been asked before, I did use the search. )
Here's some awesome information about Haste and how it relates to all specs.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t13513-h...ks_viable_pve/
#1631SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trieste
Does anyone know (with reel numbers) if screech (debuff ap) stacks with DS in pve?

I did the test on a rogue, and it stacked but we did it on Batang in Nagrand (with beast lore) and screesh didn't decrease the damages after a ds... (in the beast lore window)
#1632SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
Not even going to go into the math behind this falacy, answer is no. Not even close.
I dont see whats so wrong for the situation he explained?
I didnt check if his haste rates were correct, but an aimed shot which takes below 1.5 seconds to cast eats the slot of only one steady and one auto. If the aimed does more damage then both together, as he claimed, then why would it be false apart from the fact that you probably are not able to pull this stunt ingame.
#1633SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
His hastes are correct.
Keep in mind Aimed Shot resets Auto Shot back to the unhastedWeapon Speed, i.e. with a 2.7 speed weapon, Auto Shot will fire 2.7 seconds after Aimed Shot is fired, not 1.12.
#1634SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
His hastes are correct.
Keep in mind Aimed Shot resets Auto Shot back to the unhastedWeapon Speed, i.e. with a 2.7 speed weapon, Auto Shot will fire 2.7 seconds after Aimed Shot is fired, not 1.12.
Ok, didnt know that, and I also dont see much sense in it. Then you lose so much that it sure makes no sense to use aimed.
#1635SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ato
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
His hastes are correct.
Keep in mind Aimed Shot resets Auto Shot back to the unhastedWeapon Speed, i.e. with a 2.7 speed weapon, Auto Shot will fire 2.7 seconds after Aimed Shot is fired, not 1.12.
Ah dang, that makes it far worse than I first assumed. Thanks for the replies guys.
#1636SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Tilethryn
I'm sorry if a random reply to this post is the inappropriate venue or if its already been covered (as long as this post is, it most likely has) but I had a question about BM pets.

I started playing WoW about 1 month before the release of TBC, and at the time I was informed that MM was "the" raid dps spec. So, I happily specced marks and enjoyed life. Sometime pre-2.1, I took a long hiatus from my hunter and am now--very happily--making it my main again. This makes me rather late to the BM bandwagon, but I understand that its really the best DPS spec for hunters at the moment.

I've done quite a bit of research on shot rotation and plan to use Cheeky's dps spreadsheet to tweak gear and itemization (though comments on priority of ap/crit and their balance are most welcome), but I'm a bit confused as to what pet selection should be. I was using a Wind Serpent, but the LB nerf coupled with the fact that going out to range to LB interferes with white dps and KC leads me to think that I might be better served with something else. What would this "something else" be? It seems that Ravagers or Cats have highest DPS potential, so would a ravager with gore/bite or a cat with claw/bite be where its at? Would it be better to use gore or claw exclusively and skip bite simply because of focus issues (though presumably GFTT and Bestial Discipline will mitigate this)? Is one better than the other? What about Cobra Reflexes? I'm told it does in fact lead to an overall increase in DPS, and it seems that since it leads to more attacks (and therefore more crits) FI will be up more often.

Thanks for any input, and once again apologies to cover what is most likely redundant information. Just looking for a brief synopsis. Feel free to point me in the appropriate direction if that is easy.

P.S. I've heard about the Scorpid poison trick, but it seems rather gimmicky, so I'm not sure I want to hedge my bets on it. I also read comments on these boards saying that several fights are not at all amenable to maintaining the poison stack.
#1637SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Originally Posted by Trieste View Post
Does anyone know (with reel numbers) if screech (debuff ap) stacks with DS in pve?

I did the test on a rogue, and it stacked but we did it on Batang in Nagrand (with beast lore) and screesh didn't decrease the damages after a ds... (in the beast lore window)
Curse of Weakness

The discussion in that thread starting at post number 17 may help explain what you are seeing. Screech and DS do stack, but there is a limit of some kind on how much you can reduce a given mob's damage with -AP effects. It appears that improved demo shout will reduce most mobs attack power as far as it can be reduced. On the other hand, screech will fully offset a curse of recklessness, allowing you to use CoR while keeping the mob at maximum AP reduction.
#1638SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Keltan
Originally Posted by Tilethryn View Post
I was using a Wind Serpent, but the LB nerf coupled with the fact that going out to range to LB interferes with white dps and KC leads me to think that I might be better served with something else. What would this "something else" be? It seems that Ravagers or Cats have highest DPS potential, so would a ravager with gore/bite or a cat with claw/bite be where its at? Would it be better to use gore or claw exclusively and skip bite simply because of focus issues (though presumably GFTT and Bestial Discipline will mitigate this)? Is one better than the other? What about Cobra Reflexes? I'm told it does in fact lead to an overall increase in DPS, and it seems that since it leads to more attacks (and therefore more crits) FI will be up more often.
If you aren't keen on using a Scorpid (don't worry, I'm not either) your best bet for max damage pet is either a Ravager with Bite/Gore or a Cat with Bite/Claw. Bite is better Damage per Focus than either Gore or Claw, which is why people include it. The choice between Cat or Ravager is mostly a cosmetic one, since there is roughly a 6 dps difference (pre-armor mitigation) between Gore and Claw. Also, remember that in the next patch there will finally be level 70 tamable Ravagers in the game. So if you have a level 70 Cat already and don't want to bother leveling up a Ravager, just wait for the next patch.
#1639SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Harwin
Originally Posted by Inudemon View Post
Rapid Fire definitely does not use a GCD.
This is the second time I've thought something used the GCD and found out it doesn't (trinkets). I wonder what other items/skills I assume use the GCD that turn out not to.

I'd been assuming TBW and Intimidation and the LW drums use it. If the LW drums turn out not to use it that's a big incentive to start making and using them(almost able to make the haste ones)

Thanks very much for the info.
#1640SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Harwin View Post
This is the second time I've thought something used the GCD and found out it doesn't (trinkets). I wonder what other items/skills I assume use the GCD that turn out not to.

I'd been assuming TBW and Intimidation and the LW drums use it. If the LW drums turn out not to use it that's a big incentive to start making and using them(almost able to make the haste ones)

Thanks very much for the info.
LW drums have a cast time that seems to be greater than 1.5 anyway, TBW doesn't use it, Intimidation does.
#1641SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Tilethryn View Post
I've done quite a bit of research on shot rotation and plan to use Cheeky's dps spreadsheet to tweak gear and itemization (though comments on priority of ap/crit and their balance are most welcome)
Unfortunately (since they interact with each other and we have several "soft caps") the relative weight of agi, hit, crit and ap aren't constant. There are a few sheets out there that attempt to give you a ratio but that can lead you to make bad gearing decisions if you don't re-evaluate yourself often (after every new piece of gear).

I would suggest researching your options for each slot based on what your guild is doing now and plug stuff into cheeky's sheet.

+8 Agility gems are always a good choice and unless the socket bonus is really good, you are better off stacking them, deviating just enough to get your meta gem of choice working.

Lastly, don't underestimate the power of the Beast Lord 4 piece bonus. Cheeky's sheet allows you to enter an armor value so you can compare yourself against a target with 3400 armor in Beast Lord armor and 4000 armor in other available stuff. I chose 4000 as a worst case scenario since armor penetration gets better as your opponents armor gets lower, while not dropping below the total amount of penetration you have.
#1642SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Tilethryn
Originally Posted by Keltan View Post
If you aren't keen on using a Scorpid (don't worry, I'm not either) your best bet for max damage pet is either a Ravager with Bite/Gore or a Cat with Bite/Claw. Bite is better Damage per Focus than either Gore or Claw, which is why people include it. The choice between Cat or Ravager is mostly a cosmetic one, since there is roughly a 6 dps difference (pre-armor mitigation) between Gore and Claw. Also, remember that in the next patch there will finally be level 70 tamable Ravagers in the game. So if you have a level 70 Cat already and don't want to bother leveling up a Ravager, just wait for the next patch.
I mean, I'm not whole-heartedly against a scorpid. If the poison trick is really that great, the min-maxer in me says that I should probably just tame one. I'm just concerned that its a gimmick or something that will be hot-fixed a la lightning breath. I'll probably just get a cat until patch, simply because I really don't want to level a ravager from 63. When you say that there is a 6 dps bonus, though, which one does it swing in favor of?


@Glau:

Thanks for your comments. I'm also a huge fan of the 8 agi gems, but I've been trolling the DnT forums and armory-stalking Ravel, and it seems that hes all about the 8 crit gems. Last time I checked Cheeky's spreadsheet doing striaght 8crit gems (in my current gear) wasn't worth it, but I wonder if at least Ravel's justification is for proccing GFTT or similar abilities.
#1643SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Noah
No idea why he's using 8 crit gems over agi. He's only 3 of them socketed though to be fair; agi gems would net a gain of 12 ap and better scaling with Kings, at the cost of about .5% crit. Although I might be tempted to do the same thing to get 30% crit unbuffed for e-wang purposes!

A bit off-track: I'm hoping that when they do get around to it that Blizzard make T5 2 piece bonus the same as the warlock one (15% of player damage done heals pet), that would make it near 3x better than it is now.
#1644SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shandara
Originally Posted by Noah View Post
No idea why he's using 8 crit gems over agi. He's only 3 of them socketed though to be fair; agi gems would net a gain of 12 ap and better scaling with Kings, at the cost of about .5% crit. Although I might be tempted to do the same thing to get 30% crit unbuffed for e-wang purposes!

A bit off-track: I'm hoping that when they do get around to it that Blizzard make T5 2 piece bonus the same as the warlock one (15% of player damage done heals pet), that would make it near 3x better than it is now.
From patch notes 2.2:
Rift Stalker Armor: The pet healing set bonus now heals for a percentage of damage dealt by the Hunter.
Unless it changes before then of course.
#1645SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Avellyr
was using a Wind Serpent, but the LB nerf coupled with the fact that going out to range to LB interferes with white dps and KC leads me to think that I might be better served with something else.
Turn off autocast lightning breath and make macros for all your shots that say:

/cast <shot>
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath; Lightning Breath


Problem solved. Wind serpents still do more damage than a cat or ravager as long as you use this macro to keep their pathing in check. Plus you can still get some uptime on ferocious inspiration even on melee-unfriendly mobs.
#1646SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3senior toasted bread
Are you 100% sure about WS being more dps than a cat/ravager? It is my understanding that LB does not proc FI or frenzy.
#1647SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Greenpiggy
I'm not sure how or if I missed this but can someone confirm that sharpening stones are now affecting ranged crit chance?

(Yes I have tried searching )
#1648SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Rokh
Originally Posted by senior toasted bread View Post
Are you 100% sure about WS being more dps than a cat/ravager? It is my understanding that LB does not proc FI or frenzy.
I've done WWS test after WWS test to try and prove what everyone says here; that Ravagers are better than Windserpents, but using a Windserpent with a high crit rate and using the macro or something similar posted earlier has yielded more Windserpent damage than my Ravager on every fight, even Hydross where he's immune to LB half the time.

Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
I'm not sure how or if I missed this but can someone confirm that sharpening stones are now affecting ranged crit chance?

(Yes I have tried searching )
Pretty sure they are.
#1649SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Jerem
Adamantite Sharpening stones affect ranged crit chance (and always have, if I'm correct).

Elemental ones however (the pre-BC crit ones) used to apply to melee crit chance only. I didn't bother checking if they affect ranged crit post-2.2, but could do.
#1650SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Inudemon
Adamantite Sharpening Stones do, and always have, increased ranged crit chance. Until 2.2 at least, where they're being changed to only increase melee crit.



Back to using Mana Oil, I suppose.
#1651SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Keltan
Originally Posted by Tilethryn View Post
I mean, I'm not whole-heartedly against a scorpid. If the poison trick is really that great, the min-maxer in me says that I should probably just tame one. I'm just concerned that its a gimmick or something that will be hot-fixed a la lightning breath. I'll probably just get a cat until patch, simply because I really don't want to level a ravager from 63. When you say that there is a 6 dps bonus, though, which one does it swing in favor of?
The ~6 dps is from Gore > Claw, so it's in favor of the Ravager. (The 6 was the difference in Cheeky's spreadsheet when changing from a Cat with Bite/Claw to a Ravager with Bite/Gore, and was pre-armor mitigation, so the real difference will be even less than that.) Scorpions are very good for single target, tank and spank fights like Gruul where you (and your pet) stay on one target for the whole fight and can do continuous damage to him to keep the poison stack up.
#1652SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Cheeky
Originally Posted by Keltan View Post
The ~6 dps is from Gore > Claw, so it's in favor of the Ravager. (The 6 was the difference in Cheeky's spreadsheet when changing from a Cat with Bite/Claw to a Ravager with Bite/Gore, and was pre-armor mitigation, so the real difference will be even less than that.) Scorpions are very good for single target, tank and spank fights like Gruul where you (and your pet) stay on one target for the whole fight and can do continuous damage to him to keep the poison stack up.
My spreadsheet currently has a bug in the pet special attacks table where I ignore the pet's global cool down. In practice a pet with both Bite and Claw/Gore will only be using Claw or Gore once every 1.76 seconds, in an unlimited focus situation.

For all intents and purposes they are identical. 1-2 DPS after armor mitigation I would imagine. Since neither attack will ever scale, pick the one that looks best to you.

Last edited by Cheeky : 07/18/07 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Wrong number used
#1653SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zurgat
Bite does more dpe than Claw and Gore, but due to the GCD it's not spammable.
On it's own it's no good, but it's a great energy dump.

Bite : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Bite (85,7 damage per 25 energy)
Gore : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Gore (73,5 damage per 25 energy)
Claw : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Claw (65 damage per 25 energy)
Screech : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Screech (58.75 damage per 25 energy, plus attack power debuff)
Lightning breath : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Lightning Breath (53 damage per 25 energy - ignores armor)

I can't add scorpid poison to this list, since it scales with +AP. (i wish the other abilities scaled as well though)
#1654SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Bite does more dpe than Claw and Gore, but due to the GCD it's not spammable.
On it's own it's no good, but it's a great energy dump.

Bite : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Bite (85,7 damage per 25 energy)
Gore : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Gore (73,5 damage per 25 energy)
Claw : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Claw (65 damage per 25 energy)
Screech : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Screech (58.75 damage per 25 energy, plus attack power debuff)
Lightning breath : Thottbot World of Warcraft: Lightning Breath (53 damage per 25 energy - ignores armor)

I can't add scorpid poison to this list, since it scales with +AP. (i wish the other abilities scaled as well though)
Bite averages 120 Damage for 35 Focus.
#1655SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
pet's really have a GCD of 2.4 seconds? I have lost stacks of SP trying to use claw and SP when he had enough focus for SP but didn't cast it in time ( i assume because of a recent claw put him on some sort of GCD)
#1656SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
pet's really have a GCD of 2.4 seconds? I have lost stacks of SP trying to use claw and SP when he had enough focus for SP but didn't cast it in time ( i assume because of a recent claw put him on some sort of GCD)
No, but if you are casting Bite every 10 seconds, you can't be casting Claw every 1.5s too.

1/10 + 1/X = 1/1.5 is the equation to determine Claw frequency based on a 1.5s global cool down for the pet. X solves for 1.76s.

My number of 2.4 I posted is because I did this analysis with Scorpid Posion (4 second cooldown) instead of Bite (10 second cool down.) I'll correct the original post to have the correct number for Bite.

When using a Scorpid I turn off Claw completely. Because of the way the global cooldown interacts with the Scorpid Posion cool down, you wait a minimum of 4.5 + 3 * latency seconds to re-apply (unless server controls pet's auto-abilities).
#1657SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
I usually keep claw on until SP goes down to 6 second duration this way i should be able to get 2 chances to apply still, while getting 2 claws in there.
#1658SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Noah
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
From patch notes 2.2:
Rift Stalker Armor: The pet healing set bonus now heals for a percentage of damage dealt by the Hunter.
Unless it changes before then of course.
I'm aware of that, but because they haven't put it in yet we don't know the percentage. I was saying I hope it's the same as the Warlock one.
#1659SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Avellyr
It is my understanding that LB does not proc FI or frenzy.
Both frenzy and ferocious inspiration went up when I had my wind serpent on lightning-turret mode for Lurker. Lightning breath also either uses your pet's physical crit or ferocity increases spell crit as well, because it was proccing a decent amount.
#1660SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Avellyr View Post
Both frenzy and ferocious inspiration went up when I had my wind serpent on lightning-turret mode for Lurker. Lightning breath also either uses your pet's physical crit or ferocity increases spell crit as well, because it was proccing a decent amount.
I'm pretty sure that when I did extensive testing right after 2.0 that it doesn't use the normal crit% for the pet. I had full MC/BWL runs where I'd get 0 crits. I think it's based off the pet's Intellect as a spell crit. (Not that our pets are that smart.)
#1661SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Hunterlin
LB do crit from crit% from BM talents.
#1662SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zurai
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I'm pretty sure that when I did extensive testing right after 2.0 that it doesn't use the normal crit% for the pet. I had full MC/BWL runs where I'd get 0 crits. I think it's based off the pet's Intellect as a spell crit. (Not that our pets are that smart.)
I thought everyone knew how spellcrit works for pets :p

Pet base spellcrit = 0%. Talents increase both physical and spellcrit for pets. A pet with no crit talents will NEVER crit with a spell (barring some other outside buff that increases spellcrit). Intellect has no bearing whatsoever.
#1663SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I guess quite a few will get one of those now as they apparenlty nerfed scorpids.
Did they nerf Scorpion Poison in 2.2?
#1664SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
A few posts later Osse said nevermind... rumor.
#1665SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Female Tauren
Regarding haste, has anyone tried Thundering Skyfire Diamond?

How does it compare to relentless earthstorm diamond?

Last edited by Female Tauren : 07/19/07 at 3:43 AM. Reason: spilling
#1666SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3sasukekun
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
Regardomg haste, has anyone tried Thundering Skyfire Diamond?

How does it compare to relentless earthstorm diamond?
I tried it and it's terrible. It has a 1-2 PPM (procs per min). It's more of a rogue/warrior meta than a hunter meta.
#1667SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shandara
Originally Posted by Noah View Post
I'm aware of that, but because they haven't put it in yet we don't know the percentage. I was saying I hope it's the same as the Warlock one.
From what they did to the warlock bonus, I hope it will be 15% like you said. It does seem a little bit more powerful than the old tier5 bonus in that case though.
#1668SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Bite averages 120 Damage for 35 Focus.
Yes, but in that example i normalized all the skills to 25 focus, so you can compare the relative values better.
#1669SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Yes, but in that example i normalized all the skills to 25 focus, so you can compare the relative values better.
I find the comparison at 25 focus a little bit unfair, because this makes LB look like the worst special, while depending on your focus regeneration it still has the potential to be the best.
#1670SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
Any news about the percentage of Rift Stalker 2 set bonus yet?
#1671SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Any news about the percentage of Rift Stalker 2 set bonus yet?

Along the same lines, has anyone seen how blessing are going to work next patch wiih pets. there was a slight "discussion" last night during our raid about having to buff the hunter pets. Our pallies truly hate having to buff our pets, i usually give them a tip for the cost of the blessings. I informed them that next patch there will be a change in pally buffs on pets. No know if they will have their own group like it is set up in CT raid now or if they will get our buffs. I havent had time to copy to PTR yet.
#1672SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Noah
Blessings are hitting all pets (think of them as another class), and the T5 bonus still hasn't been implemented.
#1673SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Noah View Post
Blessings are hitting all pets (think of them as another class), and the T5 bonus still hasn't been implemented.
Noah are the pets getting the same blessings as the hunter is getting or do the pallies have to buff the PET group? I would perfer that the pallies would have to buff the pet group seperate.
#1674SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3gx_slim
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
Noah are the pets getting the same blessings as the hunter is getting or do the pallies have to buff the PET group? I would perfer that the pallies would have to buff the pet group seperate.
You realize this isn't gonna make it much easier for our pets to get blessings?
I predict I'm still gonna have to send out begging whispers to get pet buffs.

I'd really rather the pet get the same buff that the hunter gets, since I'm usually able to get might and kings without asking.
#1675SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Lysander1
Actually, its going to make it a lot easier for our pets to get Blessings. Give your Paladins a stack of Symbols of Kings (enough to cover the raid) and tell them to throw X buff on your pet. Don't leave it for them to coordinate it - we tried that and Hunters ended up with stuff like Light and Salvation over Might and Wisdom. Same story for pets. Believe me, its a LOT easier to tell Paladins to send out ONE extra buff every 30 (up from 15) minutes than tell them to send out [number of Hunters] buffs every 15.
#1676SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
Originally Posted by gx_slim View Post
You realize this isn't gonna make it much easier for our pets to get blessings?
I predict I'm still gonna have to send out begging whispers to get pet buffs.

I'd really rather the pet get the same buff that the hunter gets, since I'm usually able to get might and kings without asking.
I'm pretty sure the pets are buffable as a group now. And yes, this will make it easier to get them buffed, since they don't need to be buffed individually now (assuming you have more than 1 pet in the raid). Having them buffed with the Hunters would be simpler, but not as effective. I'd prefer my pet to have Might, Kings, and Light, whereas I want Might, Kings, and Salvation or Wisdom for me. It'll be as simple as dragging the pet group out and buffing it, just like they do with the rest of us.
#1677SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
I dont think it will be as much of an issue if the pallies can just buff one of our pets and be done but as it stands right now it is like pulling teeth. Now though with 3 of the top 5 DPS slots going to hunters even the officers have been telling the pallies to buff our pets.
#1678SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3gx_slim
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
I dont think it will be as much of an issue if the pallies can just buff one of our pets and be done but as it stands right now it is like pulling teeth. Now though with 3 of the top 5 DPS slots going to hunters even the officers have been telling the pallies to buff our pets.
Lucky you.. at the #1 DPS spot (and I'm BM with FI) I'm stuck in the all healers no buff group, have to beg for individual pet buffs in whispers, and have to heal my pet on my own (not counting chain heals).

Shit last night I was happy cause I ended up in a group with 3 mages, so I could at least contribute with FI. Of course a lock officer logs in and ninja moves me to the all tank group. Then a rogue with half my dps logs on, and I'm switched to the all healer group.

And light on pets? Do your pallies actually have pet bars on their screens?
#1679SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by gx_slim View Post
Lucky you.. at the #1 DPS spot (and I'm BM with FI) I'm stuck in the all healers no buff group, have to beg for individual pet buffs in whispers, and have to heal my pet on my own (not counting chain heals).

Shit last night I was happy cause I ended up in a group with 3 mages, so I could at least contribute with FI. Of course a lock officer logs in and ninja moves me to the all tank group. Then a rogue with half my dps logs on, and I'm switched to the all healer group.

And light on pets? Do your pallies actually have pet bars on their screens?

We are a casual raiding guild working on Hydross, we have no enchancement shaman or shadowpriest who raid regularly or even semi regularly so our groups are kinda messed up. We usually roll with 4-5 hunters in a raid. We stack both BM hunters, MM hunter and SV hunter in one group with whoever, sometimes we have a 5 man hunter group. I heal my own pet but he does get some healing from our healers cause i have heard them talking aobut the healing charts are fair cause someone is healing pets.
#1680SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3gx_slim
Ironic that a casual raiding guild's officers care more about increasing their raid's dps than my guild which is non-casual. Kudos to you though, I am rife with envy.
#1681SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Originally Posted by gx_slim View Post
Lucky you.. at the #1 DPS spot (and I'm BM with FI) I'm stuck in the all healers no buff group, have to beg for individual pet buffs in whispers, and have to heal my pet on my own (not counting chain heals).

Shit last night I was happy cause I ended up in a group with 3 mages, so I could at least contribute with FI. Of course a lock officer logs in and ninja moves me to the all tank group. Then a rogue with half my dps logs on, and I'm switched to the all healer group.

And light on pets? Do your pallies actually have pet bars on their screens?

I 2v2 with one of the pallies and he understands how pet's should stay alive.
#1682SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3gx_slim
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
I 2v2 with one of the pallies and he understands how pet's should stay alive.
Hehe good idea
#1683SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Daenerys
Originally Posted by gx_slim View Post
Lucky you.. at the #1 DPS spot (and I'm BM with FI) I'm stuck in the all healers no buff group, have to beg for individual pet buffs in whispers, and have to heal my pet on my own (not counting chain heals).

Shit last night I was happy cause I ended up in a group with 3 mages, so I could at least contribute with FI. Of course a lock officer logs in and ninja moves me to the all tank group. Then a rogue with half my dps logs on, and I'm switched to the all healer group.

And light on pets? Do your pallies actually have pet bars on their screens?
That really sucks, man. As a raid leader, I admit that sometimes it's impossible to get everyone in the "perfect" group, but it sounds like they don't even attept it in your raids. I do my best to get Hunters into groups that benefit them (and the group) as much as possible.

If your RL is looking for a tip, Warlocks are the class that is least needy in terms of group makeup. They don't need crit if you have a Boomkin, and they are pretty self-sufficient when it comes to mana. When I have issues making groups, Warlocks are usually the first to get shuffed out for this reason. The only group synergy they get significant benefit from is a Shaman dropping wrath of air, but we are lucky to get more than one Shaman per raid these days, and melee usually claim him first. =P

Try to find a way to bring up group make-up without insulting the leaders or starting an epeen contest. Start a "group dynamics" thread on your forums that lists all the potential synergies of all the classes and frame it as a brainstorming thread so it doesn't come off as a critisism. Maybe the leaders just need to see it all laid out in front of them before they realize what a BM Hunter brings to a group and the benefit they can recieve from other classes.
#1684SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Althir
I was unable to find a better place to post this, so I guess I'll try it here:

Does FI provide a better DPS boost to a group of casters than Wrath of Air?

A group with:

Shadow Priest
Mage
Mage
Mage

In the last spot, is a BM hunter better than, say, a resto Shaman dropping Wrath of Air and benefiting from Vamp. Touch?
#1685SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3gx_slim
Good question Althir, I'd like to see some mathcrafting come out of it.

RE: Daenerys:
It does suck.. my raid does a lot of fine-tuning. Unfortunately, they do it for lower dps hunters, or decent rogues, or decent mages, or officer warlocks, that have been in the guild for years, and I'm just an initiate. A friend of mine is an officer, but doesn't get listened to much apparently. I mean I see a marks hunter in our guild in a group with an improved LOTP druid, an enhancement shaman and a dps warrior, while I'm in a group with holy paladins and holy priests, and at the end of the night I put out 950 DPS, and the other hunter put out 750. I really get the feeling that I'm just being shitted on as the new guy, and I hope it's just a hazing ritual rather than just disdain for the overall raid's DPS.

The one time I got put in a group with a shadow priest (there were 3 in the raid), I sustained 1360 dps for all of kazzak and 1320 for all of Magtheridon. Granted, I was using a scorpid, but I would still have had close to 1100 with just my ravager, and the next nearest in the raid had less than 1k.

As I said before, I'd be happy with being in a group with 3 mages, who can at least make use of my ferocious inspiration. I just hate seeing my potential dps AND my potential group buffs going to waste.
#1686SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
That really sucks, man. As a raid leader, I admit that sometimes it's impossible to get everyone in the "perfect" group, but it sounds like they don't even attept it in your raids. I do my best to get Hunters into groups that benefit them (and the group) as much as possible.

If your RL is looking for a tip, Warlocks are the class that is least needy in terms of group makeup. They don't need crit if you have a Boomkin, and they are pretty self-sufficient when it comes to mana. When I have issues making groups, Warlocks are usually the first to get shuffed out for this reason. The only group synergy they get significant benefit from is a Shaman dropping wrath of air, but we are lucky to get more than one Shaman per raid these days, and melee usually claim him first. =P

Try to find a way to bring up group make-up without insulting the leaders or starting an epeen contest. Start a "group dynamics" thread on your forums that lists all the potential synergies of all the classes and frame it as a brainstorming thread so it doesn't come off as a critisism. Maybe the leaders just need to see it all laid out in front of them before they realize what a BM Hunter brings to a group and the benefit they can recieve from other classes.
Its nice to see other RL's help cater to TBC Hunters. We're a very different animal than what we were pre expansion days. I'm quite fortunate that I get red carpet treatment on groups. I will either always have LoTP or a Shadowpriest, (but never both). Very rarely will I get neither. However, I've gone back to MM for raiding for several reasons and don't have to bitch at paladins for pet buffs as much which makes me a little more stress-free.
#1687SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Its nice to see other RL's help cater to TBC Hunters. We're a very different animal than what we were pre expansion days. I'm quite fortunate that I get red carpet treatment on groups. I will either always have LoTP or a Shadowpriest, (but never both). Very rarely will I get neither. However, I've gone back to MM for raiding for several reasons and don't have to bitch at paladins for pet buffs as much which makes me a little more stress-free.
What reason did you go to MM ? Been thinking of going back to MM also. Our MM hunter does real good with scorpion. Actually he did VERY well.
#1688SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Mikari
From the information given in this thread I'm thinking that pets aren't classed as their own group, but instead get buffs of the same class as the pet is. I think on unit frame mods that show class that hunters pets are classed as warriors, so maybe they will get the same buffs as warriors. Does anyone know what class a warlocks felhunter shows up as if their unit frame shows classes for units?
#1689SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3cipro
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
What reason did you go to MM ? Been thinking of going back to MM also. Our MM hunter does real good with scorpion. Actually he did VERY well.
All the haste gear tempts me to go back MM, but with the 30m pally buffs and auto-pet buffs I figure BM's worth the trouble. The one MM hunter in my guild outdamaged a lot of us using his scorpid :[ imba!

Wow Web Stats

It's probably only because it was friday the 13th.
#1690SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
I don't think the current incarnation of scorpid poison is going to make it through to 2.2. I suspect they will give them all independent stacks and take the coefficient down to 0.1 like they did with LB. It is just WAY too gimmicky and if anything they have established a solid record of tuning any pets that before the preferred or default one for all hunters.
#1691SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I don't think the current incarnation of scorpid poison is going to make it through to 2.2. I suspect they will give them all independent stacks and take the coefficient down to 0.1 like they did with LB. It is just WAY too gimmicky and if anything they have established a solid record of tuning any pets that before the preferred or default one for all hunters.
I guess that all depends on how hard it is to fix. Also, scorpids are below average on more than half of the encounters.
#1692SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
okla
I dont really get the problem with group make up, the basic need for a bm hunter is a druid.
Which shouldnt really be a problem if you have 1/2 ferals in the raid, since they dont really need tailored groups.
If you are lucky (like i have been on occasion past weeks) you end up in a full melee dps group, getting a enh shammy and a warrior, a little harder on the mana, but so much fun.

Luckely ive got a tremendous mana gain from judgement of wisdom, who a pally friend of mine puts up as much as he can, this even allows me to use a higher dps rotation then just as - ss - kc.

Blessings can be a pain, as well as single fort buffs etc.
Just keep asking, you will find it gets easier once you regularly come in on the top 3/5 of the damage meters, it changed drasticly for me when i pushed 1600 dps on a teron gorefiend kill, where some (annoyed? :>) warrior or rogue pointed out that my pet did 30 % of my damage (best advertisement ever). wtb more low armor fights

edit: recently I decided to pickup a scorpid, ive played around with it a bit, but cant really seem to keep it stacking, obviously i have rank 4 for the extra application chance, but i feel focus is the problem.

Do you disable claw so it stacks up/keeps it stack ?

Last edited by okla : 07/20/07 at 5:54 AM.
#1693SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3zork
Originally Posted by erb View Post
Well, if you are BM spc with a 2.8 speed weapon and you want to maximize DPS you shouldn't even use multi shot or arcane shot. Just delete everything in your castsequence macro after "Auto Shot, Steady Shot"
This is interesting. I asked me the same question yesterday and what I did was going to Dr.Boom and did some tests.

My equip is very bad but that shouldn't do anything, here is my armory profile:
The Armory

To get me into rotations I wrote me a script to get a better view of how bow_speed and speed_buffs apply. You can check it out here:
Hunter shot-rotations illustrated

So I did ~1 hour of testing 3 rotations on Dr. Boom:

#1: /castseqence Auto Shot, Steady Shot;
#2: /castseqence Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot;
#3: /castseqence Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot;

The first thing I noticed was that Kill Command was delaying my shots so I kicked it out. (I hadn't the [target=pettarget,exists] stuff in my macro.)

I am BM spec with 2.8 bow speed and my speed buffs are quiver and serpents swiftness. So I landed at ~2.03 speed.

What I did was activating Aspect of the Viper and started firing until OOM then feign death. I used no buffs, trinkets to get some equal results.

#1 and #2 always landed nearly the same with #2 a little bit in front. Both where ~400dps.
What kinda impressed me was the performace of #3 since I delay one Auto Shot a bit but the one more shot and the possibility to have it crit seems to get me better results then just having no shots delayed. I always landed ~450dps using #3 which is ~50dps above the other two macros.

I used violation to track my dps.

What kinda disturbs me was the strange behavior of some arcane and some steady shots. I combatlogged everything and it reads like this:

Arcane shot has not yet recovered.
Arcane shot has not yet recovered.
Arcane shot has not yet recovered.
Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for...
Arcane shot has not yet recovered.
Arcane shot hits Dr. Boom for...
The behavior of my auto shot sometimes seems to be a bit mysterious and I have some questions maybe you can help me out.

Auto Shot has some hidden castbar (So you cannot cast it while running). I think the length of this castbar is affected by speed buffs but the real length is hard to determine because of latency issues.
What I want to test is to use a "/castsequence steady,steady,steady,auto macro", this should halt the auto until the last steady and fire it right after the last steady is fired (since the auto shot timer will be ready).
What I don't know for sure yet is, when does the auto shot timer reset? When the auto shot is fired? Well since auto shot must be casted this should be obvious the question is how long does auto shot need to be casted and can this be speeded up. (I say yes to speed since when using rapid fire the auto shot comes nearly instant after steady).

Another thing that would be interesting to know is: If spam "/castsequence steady,steady,steady,steady,steady" there will be gaps since the steady shot is fired in ~1.2 seconds but thanks to global cooldown it cannot be activated again until second 1.5. That is a gap of 0.3 seconds. Whats interesting is that if you stop spamming the macro the auto shot will start again, will this happen while spamming a macro when specials are on GC too?
#1694SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3eulcon
Oops, posted in wrong thread. Sorry
#1695SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3erb
Hmm.. You have an interesting idea for me to try out later tonight when I get out of work.
Currently I am using the Wolfslayer along with Serpents Swiftness so I am at a passive 1.96 attack speed. My gear is pretty bad too so I'm only at about 750-850 dps on a boss fight right now. Anything to improve that would be great. I am hoping to get to the 1k mark and I don't have great luck with drops, so working with what I currently do have and being able to squeeze every last drop of DPS out of it makes me happy!

The Armory
#1696SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zure
Has anyone actually run tests to see if the autoshot timer is a flat 0.5 or if it is modified by haste effects?

It may seem minor, but with just Quiver and SS applied, 0.5 goes down to 0.36, a difference of .14 seconds. This could completely change the optimal bow speed for some non-BM cycles. All of this is especially important given that blizzard has recently announced that they will be implementing some sort of latency-counter for spell casting.

Quiver: 1.15
Serpent's Swiftness: 1.2
Rapid Fire: 1.4
Abacus of violent odds: 1.247
Berserking: 1.10 (up to 1.2 not counted below)
Haste potion: 1.38

Quick shots: 1.15
Dragonspine:1.30

Even without Quickshots or Dragonspine this will get a Precisely Calibrated Boomstick down to .410 attack speed, which should be enough to test. With quickshots + dragonspine, you'd be at .274 attack speed.

If a PCB isn't available, the Voone crossbow (solo-able) is 1.6 speed and just the castable buffs above brings it to .437 (procs to .292). Non-trolls can simply replace Zerking with a quickshots proc (which will probably re-proc itself during the test).
#1697SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Ryas
Originally Posted by Daenerys View Post
That really sucks, man. As a raid leader, I admit that sometimes it's impossible to get everyone in the "perfect" group, but it sounds like they don't even attept it in your raids. I do my best to get Hunters into groups that benefit them (and the group) as much as possible.

If your RL is looking for a tip, Warlocks are the class that is least needy in terms of group makeup. They don't need crit if you have a Boomkin, and they are pretty self-sufficient when it comes to mana. When I have issues making groups, Warlocks are usually the first to get shuffed out for this reason. The only group synergy they get significant benefit from is a Shaman dropping wrath of air, but we are lucky to get more than one Shaman per raid these days, and melee usually claim him first. =P

Try to find a way to bring up group make-up without insulting the leaders or starting an epeen contest. Start a "group dynamics" thread on your forums that lists all the potential synergies of all the classes and frame it as a brainstorming thread so it doesn't come off as a critisism. Maybe the leaders just need to see it all laid out in front of them before they realize what a BM Hunter brings to a group and the benefit they can recieve from other classes.
Hi Daen (It's Avatar =P)

While a recruit of Vis Maior right now, them seem to be pretty good about hooking the hunters up with a pretty good group. In SSC/TK, we brought 3 Beast Mastery hunters (Myself/Leica/Jaade). Throughout those 2 instances, all 3 hunters were in the same group with a feral druid and a shaman. I myself put out about 1250 DPS, while Leica did over 1300, and Jaade put out almost 1500 on tidewalker, it was pretty crazy.

We did Black Temple last night through Gorefiend, with myself and Leica, while in a different group, had a shadow priest pretty much the whole night which was pretty amazing as I pretty much never had to mana pot during any boss fight. They seem to understand that a BM hunter needs a bit of group synergy to be very effective and I appreciate them for that.
#1698SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Glaurong
Originally Posted by zork View Post
My equip is very bad but that shouldn't do anything, here is my armory profile:
The Armory
Unfortunately, this is a false assumption. Steady shot scales better than arcane shot with AP.

Steady shot is 20%, Arcane shot is 15%.

Steady shot also has a weapon DPS component.

Edit:

Originally Posted by zork View Post
Auto Shot has some hidden castbar (So you cannot cast it while running). I think the length of this castbar is affected by speed buffs but the real length is hard to determine because of latency issues.
What I want to test is to use a "/castsequence steady,steady,steady,auto macro", this should halt the auto until the last steady and fire it right after the last steady is fired (since the auto shot timer will be ready).
What I don't know for sure yet is, when does the auto shot timer reset? When the auto shot is fired? Well since auto shot must be casted this should be obvious the question is how long does auto shot need to be casted and can this be speeded up. (I say yes to speed since when using rapid fire the auto shot comes nearly instant after steady).
As you noted this is nearly impossible to determine due to latency. It introduces a variable into every time stamp in your combat log. This variance will be equal to or larger than the amount of time taken off the auto shot cast (if it does get hasted).

Edit 3: On a completely unrelated note, it is stupidly easy to gear up a cloth caster. I went from 66-70 in 4 days with my priest. Two days after I hit 70 I'm wearing 5 epics. I <3 tailoring.

Last edited by Glaurong : 07/20/07 at 1:38 PM.
#1699SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
zork
Originally Posted by Zure View Post
Has anyone actually run tests to see if the autoshot timer is a flat 0.5 or if it is modified by haste effects?

It may seem minor, but with just Quiver and SS applied, 0.5 goes down to 0.36, a difference of .14 seconds. This could completely change the optimal bow speed for some non-BM cycles. All of this is especially important given that blizzard has recently announced that they will be implementing some sort of latency-counter for spell casting.

Quiver: 1.15
Serpent's Swiftness: 1.2
Rapid Fire: 1.4
Abacus of violent odds: 1.247
Berserking: 1.10 (up to 1.2 not counted below)
Haste potion: 1.38

Quick shots: 1.15
Dragonspine:1.30

Even without Quickshots or Dragonspine this will get a Precisely Calibrated Boomstick down to .410 attack speed, which should be enough to test. With quickshots + dragonspine, you'd be at .274 attack speed.

If a PCB isn't available, the Voone crossbow (solo-able) is 1.6 speed and just the castable buffs above brings it to .437 (procs to .292). Non-trolls can simply replace Zerking with a quickshots proc (which will probably re-proc itself during the test).
I am doing some test on this atm and I get some weird results:

SEQUENCE steady,steady,steady,auto

7/20 17:46:29.390  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 800 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:30.843  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 342 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:32.484  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 323 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:33.281  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 293 Schaden.
#1 - 33.281-32.484 = 0.797

7/20 17:46:34.812  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 347 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:36.187  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 322 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:37.843  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 329 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:38.640  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 345 Schaden.
#2 - 38.640-37.843 = 0.797

7/20 17:46:40.000  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 358 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:41.812  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 694 Schaden. (49 geblockt)
7/20 17:46:43.140  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 844 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:43.875  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 279 Schaden.
#3 - 43.875-43.140 = 0.735

7/20 17:46:45.406  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 385 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:46.781  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 347 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:48.390  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 334 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:48.984  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 344 Schaden.
#4 - 48.984-48.390 = 0.594

7/20 17:46:50.562  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 328 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:52.453  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 329 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:54.078  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 340 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:54.796  Automatischer Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 748 Schaden.
#5 - 54.796-54.078 = 0.718

7/20 17:46:56.531  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 381 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:57.859  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 772 Schaden.
7/20 17:46:59.671  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 344 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:00.406  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 333 Schaden.
#6 - 60.406 - 59.671 = 0.735

7/20 17:47:01.718  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 332 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:03.125  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 326 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:04.781  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 348 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:05.421  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 341 Schaden.
#7 - 05.421- 04.781 = 0.64

7/20 17:47:06.843  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 320 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:08.421  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 364 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:10.218  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 337 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:11.000  Automatischer Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 771 Schaden.
#8 - 11.000-10.218 = 0.782

7/20 17:47:12.546  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 374 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:13.968  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 361 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:15.687  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 367 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:16.468  Automatischer Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 709 Schaden.
#9 - 16.468-15.687 = 0.781

7/20 17:47:17.750  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 383 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:19.203  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 329 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:20.890  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 319 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:21.609  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 328 Schaden.
#10 - 21.609-20.890 = 0.719

7/20 17:47:23.109  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 336 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:24.625  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 314 Schaden. (49 geblockt)
7/20 17:47:26.109  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 323 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:26.640  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 320 Schaden.
#11 - 26.640-26.109 = 0.531

7/20 17:47:28.015  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 383 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:29.671  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 848 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:31.406  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 367 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:32.000  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 325 Schaden.
#12 - 32.000-31.406 = 0.594

7/20 17:47:33.140  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 388 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:34.921  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 882 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:36.343  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 376 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:37.156  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 304 Schaden.
#13 - 37.156-36.343 = 0.813

(0.797+0.797+0.735+0.594+0.718+0.735+0.64+0.782+0.781+0.719+0.531+0.594+0.813)/13 = 0.710461538


AUTO SHOTS
==========

Bow: 2.8 / (1.15 * 1.2) = 2.02898551

7/20 17:47:46.843  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 325 Schaden.
7/20 17:47:48.937  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 294 Schaden.
2.09400
7/20 17:47:50.828  Automatischer Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 642 Schaden.
1.89100
7/20 17:47:52.890  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 305 Schaden.
2.06200
7/20 17:47:54.968  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 337 Schaden.
2.07800
7/20 17:47:57.125  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 304 Schaden.
2.15700

(2.15700+2.07800+2.06200+1.89100+2.09400)/5 = 2.0564
So when I use auto shots only its nearly perfect 2.03 seconds.
But when I spam the macro as fast as I can (may its not humanly possible to hit faster than 5 times a second on one button >_<) all auto shots must be casted and the cast speed is rather long. I get ~0.7seconds. So that may be 0.5+lag.

I will now test this with Rapid fire on but the results should stay the same. I have serpent swiftness and quiver and my auto shot lands always ~0.7seconds after the last steady.

Ok I just did a test with some interesting outcome. The macro I used was:
/castsequence steady,steady,steady,auto but what happened is that after every single steady one auto was fired.

7/20 20:06:23.515  Ihr bekommt 'Schnellfeuer'.
7/20 20:06:25.359  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 361 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:25.609  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 313 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:26.984  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 320 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:27.546  Automatischer Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 767 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:28.546  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 848 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:29.093  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 290 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:30.171  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 375 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:30.906  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 325 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:31.906  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 354 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:32.359  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 323 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:33.703  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 360 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:34.453  Automatischer Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 790 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:35.343  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 330 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:35.796  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 343 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:36.859  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 322 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:37.656  Automatischer Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 683 Schaden.
7/20 20:06:38.828  'Schnellfeuer' schwindet von Euch.

7/20 20:09:52.125  Ihr bekommt 'Schnellfeuer'.
7/20 20:09:53.609  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 363 Schaden.
7/20 20:09:54.203  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 299 Schaden.
7/20 20:09:55.203  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 347 Schaden.
7/20 20:09:55.578  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 344 Schaden.
7/20 20:09:56.953  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 803 Schaden.
7/20 20:09:57.546  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 302 Schaden.
7/20 20:09:58.421  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 356 Schaden.
7/20 20:09:59.000  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 300 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:00.203  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 783 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:00.359  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 311 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:01.734  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 330 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:02.250  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 325 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:03.156  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 352 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:03.859  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 330 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:04.921  Zuverlässiger Schuss trifft Dr. Bumm kritisch: 741 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:05.312  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 331 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:06.578  Zuverlässiger Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 345 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:06.671  Automatischer Schuss von Euch trifft Dr. Bumm für 288 Schaden.
7/20 20:10:07.531  'Schnellfeuer' schwindet von Euch.
That is really weird. Some of the Auto shots are ~0.2 seconds behind the Steady. And some don't. What I think that happened is that because of the Auto shot cooldown being < 1.5seconds the auto shot "auto-fires" itself in the small gap where steady is still on cooldown. Thats interesting but kinda confusing.

Last edited by zork : 07/20/07 at 2:20 PM.
#1700SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3ugla
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
Along the same lines, has anyone seen how blessing are going to work next patch wiih pets. there was a slight "discussion" last night during our raid about having to buff the hunter pets. Our pallies truly hate having to buff our pets, i usually give them a tip for the cost of the blessings. I informed them that next patch there will be a change in pally buffs on pets. No know if they will have their own group like it is set up in CT raid now or if they will get our buffs. I havent had time to copy to PTR yet.
I guess I'm lucky... my Paladins yell at us to get our pets out so they can buff them. Having a pet with over 1200AP seems semi-ridiculous. Too bad BM pets don't get crit/hit scaling.
#1701SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Xoran
So I'm riding the BM bandwagon for quite some time and today I got really lucky and picked up the barrel-blade longrifle from Doomwalker. So with quiver and serpent swiftness I'm down to a 1,88 sec attackspeed.
Two pages back Glau mentioned, that 1,7 sec is a typical lower bound for an auto/steady rotation and now I try to decide, if it's feasible to take just 3/5 IAotH, going down to 1,72 sec (and maybe just ignore KC at all) or if it's possible to weave in a KC (sometimes behind the steady, sometimes behind the auto I guess) with an unhasted speed of 1,88.
Maybe some of you with this weapon or better personal experience with haste effects can shed some light on this.
#1702SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Mannzis
Hello, I am a long-time reader of these forums but a first time poster!

Anyway, I am a BM Hunter. I recently plugged in my information into Cheeky's Spreadsheet, and was pretty surprised at what I found.

Currently I have Maulgar's War Helm. I was under the impression that this was essentially the best helm before the Riftstalker helm. However, its flaw is that it does not have a meta-gem socket. The Spreadsheet shows that I have 1140.62dps with a total dps of 1473.24 (I assume this number combines pet dps?).

Heres the what I wanted to get your opinion on:

If I equip Beast Lord Helm, (with +8 agi gem, and relentless earthstorm diamond) it shows that I have 1150.09dps and 1482.24 total dps.

Is this correct? Is a blue helm with a meta-gem THAT much better as far as dps than a helm that drops off of Maulgar?!

If this is the case, it makes any non-socketable helm pretty worthless. What are your thoughts on this?
#1703SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
its the agility. Try stalkers helm of second sight with 3 8 agi gems in it.

Also, make sure that when you go back to a piece of armor that doesnt have sockets you remove the gem option, as the sheet doesn't do it automatically... (made me spend some cash on a downgrade since i wasnt paying attention and the second piece didn't have sockets.
#1704SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ilmater
Does anyone know where Romulo's Poison Vial ranks in the levels of BM Hunter gear? I'm debating between it and Ogre Mauler's Badge - Items - World of Warcraft.

Thanks for your help.
#1705SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
Romulo's poison vial dominates that ogre mauler trinket. But id probably still take an hourglass over it.
#1706SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ragnar
Originally Posted by cipro View Post
All the haste gear tempts me to go back MM, but with the 30m pally buffs and auto-pet buffs I figure BM's worth the trouble. The one MM hunter in my guild outdamaged a lot of us using his scorpid :[ imba!

Wow Web Stats

It's probably only because it was friday the 13th.
I hate to say but your WWS log is corrupted. Tidewalker recieved 7 million damage in that log. He only has 5.3 million HP. The log's data must be tracking something else, porbably the previous attempt.
#1707SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
Romulo's poison vial dominates that ogre mauler trinket. But id probably still take an hourglass over it.
I've actually used Romulo's Vial quite a bit lately simply because it gives me a lot of hit that I'm currently lacking.

On a Naj'entus kill the other night:
Howitzer - WWS

The trinket had a 22% miss rate on a boss mob 1st off... other than that it did 2209 damage over the course of the fight with a dps time of 4 minutes for myself. Seems to have a 15~ second cooldown and has crit for up to 500~ damage. So it gave me a 9.2 DPS increase on just that boss, (which isn't huge).

On Supremus:
Howitzer - WWS

The Vial went off 10 times in 8 minutes of shooting totaling 2700 or so damage.

There is one cool thing about this trinket though is that if you have an elemental shaman in the raid the trinket can (and has) hit for way more non-crit than the average of 270-300. Overall its a lot better than it used to be before the 2.1 revamp but of course there are better trinkets to be had. For now though, its my to-hit savior. =)
#1708SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
Hehe fair enough howitzer, i look at +hit a fairly unique way and almost never go out of my way to take the stat unless it comes as part of a package (say going from belt of the black eagle to belt of deep shadows).
#1709SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
I hate to say but your WWS log is corrupted. Tidewalker recieved 7 million damage in that log. He only has 5.3 million HP. The log's data must be tracking something else, porbably the previous attempt.
You should not forget the adds. 7.0-7.8 million damage is possible depending on your AOE casters.
#1710SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Yippy
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
You should not forget the adds. 7.0-7.8 million damage is possible depending on your AOE casters.
No he's right, it's corrupt, see

Morogrim Tidewalker - WWS

and things like:

05:22'06.270 Narakh's Auto Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1930
957 Spike gains 50 Focus from Go for the Throat of Narakh
05:22'07.278 Narakh's Auto Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1930

There seems to be some issues when merging reports.
#1711SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3cipro
Originally Posted by Yippy View Post
No he's right, it's corrupt.
My apologies, most every log my two guildies merge seem to be accurate, I guess this was just looked past since its just ssc.
#1712SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Yippy View Post
No he's right, it's corrupt, see

Morogrim Tidewalker - WWS

and things like:

05:22'06.270 Narakh's Auto Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1930
957 Spike gains 50 Focus from Go for the Throat of Narakh
05:22'07.278 Narakh's Auto Shot crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 1930

There seems to be some issues when merging reports.
Ok, 2 Autoshot in 1 second as a MM really seems a bit strange, but if the two mergers had different time stamps I dont understand why it didnt double the whole log.

Anyway, 7-7.8 million damage on Tidewalker is still correct. We do the same as do most guilds if you check the top 50. And I dont merge.
#1713SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Khanate
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
You should not forget the adds. 7.0-7.8 million damage is possible depending on your AOE casters.
8.9 million in total with the AOE mobs, roughly 7 million on morogrim himself
#1714SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kurthios
Originally Posted by Noah View Post
No idea why he's using 8 crit gems over agi. He's only 3 of them socketed though to be fair; agi gems would net a gain of 12 ap and better scaling with Kings, at the cost of about .5% crit. Although I might be tempted to do the same thing to get 30% crit unbuffed for e-wang purposes!
I've just returned to my hunter a couple weeks ago after about a 6 month hiatus, so my math may be whack, but...

24 agi gives us 24 AP and 0.6% crit
24 crit rating gives 1.09% crit

With 41/20:

24 crit == 1.417% dps (1.09% * 1.3)
24 AP + 0.6% crit == 1.714dps * (1 + (crit rate * 1.3)) + .78% dps

At 400dps (paper doll) and 25% crit:
24 crit == 5.668dps
24 agi == 5.39dps

That's actually pretty close to the breakeven point. Probably best to chart it really.

(Kings gives you 2.4 more agi, which gives you 2.4 more AP and 0.06 crit, making 24 agi and 24 crit almost exactly the same at 400dps and 25% crit).

Last edited by Kurthios : 07/22/07 at 12:04 AM.
#1715SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3crashdacoot
I'm having some DPS issues as a raiding BM hunter currently working on Kael'Thas. My gear is 4/5 Rift Stalker, Arcanite Steam-Pistol, and various other tier 4 or 5 epics. On most fights, I'm almost always more than a few slots below a similarly geared BM hunter. I think the problem is something to do with the timing of my shots.

The macro I'm using for my basic shot rotation is this:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot

For the most part, I spam that macro and then stop spamming after an auto shot, fire an arcane shot, let another auto shot go off, then back to spamming as that shot fires. I do the same with kill command, use KC after the auto shot, then back to spamming the macro. If KC and arcane are both up, I use KC, then arcane, auto, back to spamming.

So, in "diagram" form:

Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
(replace the arcane with KC)

or

Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Kill Command, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot

I've talked to this other hunter, and he's doing the same thing as me. The only problem that I can think of is that I'm using my arcane shot or kill command at such a time that the delay between my next Steady/Auto is long enough that it adds up over the course of a fight and eliminates quite a large portion of damage. If there's a better time or way to use shots and kill command, I'd really appreciate some input.

Also, I'm sorry of this is the wrong thread to ask this in, but I didn't find any answers in other threads or this one.

Quick edit: The other hunter is at least a few slots ahead of me without pets merged on the damage meter, so it's not that his pet is doing more damage than mine. Also, his gear is slightly better than mine. He has about 100 more AP, 2% more crit. We're both at the hit cap.
#1716SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ato
MD & Misses

Does MD use a charge if you miss?

I got the following log yesterday. I cast MD on the tank, and the following occured. (I've changed names and cut the log to simply include the relevant parts.)

Ato gains Misdirection
Main Tank gains Misdirection
Mage Tank's Pyroblast hits Krosh Firehand for 1894 Fire damage
Ato performs Distracting Shot
Ato's Auto Shot misses High King Maulgar
Ato's Arcane Shot hits High King Maulgar for 283 Arcane damage (283 resisted)
Ato's Auto Shot crits High King Maulgar for 1028

Dist shot was okay. First Auto missed. Arcane fully resisted. Second Auto crit. Maulgar aggroed the MT as usual just fine.

This leads me to believe that MD doesnt use a charge on a miss.

Dist shot is 900 threat (see Thott). If the miss counted, I would have 128 aggro on Maulgar, and he should have killed me. But he aggroed the MT as expected.
#1717SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Talyx
Originally Posted by Ato View Post
Does MD use a charge if you miss?

I got the following log yesterday. I cast MD on the tank, and the following occured. (I've changed names and cut the log to simply include the relevant parts.)

Ato gains Misdirection
Main Tank gains Misdirection
Mage Tank's Pyroblast hits Krosh Firehand for 1894 Fire damage
Ato performs Distracting Shot
Ato's Auto Shot misses High King Maulgar
Ato's Arcane Shot hits High King Maulgar for 283 Arcane damage (283 resisted)
Ato's Auto Shot crits High King Maulgar for 1028

Dist shot was okay. First Auto missed. Arcane fully resisted. Second Auto crit. Maulgar aggroed the MT as usual just fine.

This leads me to believe that MD doesnt use a charge on a miss.

Dist shot is 900 threat (see Thott). If the miss counted, I would have 128 aggro on Maulgar, and he should have killed me. But he aggroed the MT as expected.
It looks like your arcane shot just partially resisted, so you gave the tank 1183 threat (900+283), which is greater than 1028.
#1718SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Lactose
Originally Posted by Kurthios View Post
24 crit == 1.417% dps (1.09% * 1.3)
24 AP + 0.6% crit == 1.714dps * (1 + (crit rate * 1.3)) + .78% dps
This is wrong.
You're comparing final, pre-mitigated DPS. What I mean by this is that you're including things as hastes (included in Character Sheet DPS), as well as Crit. When you're including these things, 14 AP is not equal to 1 DPS.

+1% Crit does not give +1.3% more DPS. You have more than 0% Crit -- diminishing returns. IF you have 100 DPS pre-crit:
Going from 0% Crit to 1% Crit:
100*1 + 230*0 = 100
100*0.99 + 230*0.01 = 101.3
1.3% DPS increase

Going from 30% Crit to 31% Crit:
100*0.7 + 230*0.3 = 139
100*0.69 + 230*0.31 = 140.3
1.00935% DPS increase

The +AP from Agility and the +Crit from Agility also shift these numbers, due to affecting each other.
I.e. +40 Agility would not be:
Adding 40 AP to our base stats gives us +x DPS. Adding 1% Crit to our base stats gives us +y DPS. Total gain = x+y
You have to include how +Crit and +AP gained from +Agility affect each other.

Last edited by Lactose : 07/22/07 at 10:57 AM.
#1719SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ato
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Nope.

MT threat if miss consumes charge:
1894 (Pyroblast) + 900 (Distracting Shot) + 0 (missed Auto Shot) + 283 (Arcane Shot) = 3077
Your threat if miss consumes charge:
1028 (Auto Shot)

Even if a missed shot consumed a charge of the Misdirection stack, you would not have high enough threat to draw aggro.
Hang on, I'm a tad confused here.

Why does the MT get the threat from the Pyroblast? The mage tank casts that on Krosh; I am shooting King Maulgar for MD to the MT.
#1720SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Woops, I actually read 'mage tank' as 'main tank' and didn't stop to think :P
I'll edit that out now...

Anyway, MT threat = 1183, your threat = 1028.
Also, I still think you'd need 30% more threat than the tank to pull aggro.
#1721SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Uthilas
Hi, i am new to these forums..so any answers would be swell...i am 41/20..BM/marks..i had a few quick questions about my gear...i normally top the charts..in the 1, 2 ,3 slot depending on the fight

The Armory


(that spec is my marks 5v5 spec)

i currently have 8 crit rating gems..after reading this forum i feel like a big time noob..should those all be 8 agi gems?


any suggestion would be awesome...ty
#1722SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3erb
Right now I have a passive 1.91 attack speed and I have recently just been doing steady/auto/kc and not really using arcane or multi shot. Right now I have a 23.83% crit and one point in Bestial Discipline. I believe I am doing the math right on this, but please correct if I am wrong. Currently I am going to a 1.62 attack speed when hasted by imp AOTH (1.91 x 0.15 = .2865). I am thinking if I move one point out of imp aoth to fill out BD I will be at 1.68 attack speed. If my math is correct, I would assume filling out BD and dropping imp aoth to 4 points would be a pretty decent DPS increase but that's what I'm asking you for

The Armory
#1723SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3erb
Originally Posted by Uthilas View Post
Hi, i am new to these forums..so any answers would be swell...i am 41/20..BM/marks..i had a few quick questions about my gear...i normally top the charts..in the 1, 2 ,3 slot depending on the fight

The Armory


(that spec is my marks 5v5 spec)

i currently have 8 crit rating gems..after reading this forum i feel like a big time noob..should those all be 8 agi gems?


any suggestion would be awesome...ty
I think the majority of hunters out there would say 8 agility gems no matter what spec you are
#1724SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Uthilas
so is 8 agility always superior to 8 crit rating????
#1725SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Uthilas View Post
so is 8 agility always superior to 8 crit rating????
No. There may be good reasons to get a crit gem instead. But over most of the ap/crit/agi space, for all builds, 8 agi does get you a bit more dps than 8 crit rating.
#1726SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by erb View Post
Currently I am going to a 1.62 attack speed when hasted by imp AOTH (1.91 x 0.15 = .2865).
Hastes don't work like this.
How hastes work.
#1727SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3khel
From my calculations with my gear setup, which is basically the best gear available from Karazhan, Gruul, and Magtheridon, 8agi is just slightly better than 8cr, and both are superior to 16ap.

Using 8cr instead of 8agi depends on meta socket requirements and if the socket bonus is worth anything.
#1728SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Zurgat
Sorry if it was already posted. (I checked 3-4 pages back but didn't see any mention of it)
Edit: Seems it was 6 pages back, thanks Lactose.

According to TKA Something - A World of Warcraft Hunter's Resource
The nethermine ravagers are finally tameable on the 2.2 test server.

This is great news, training a ravager from 63-70 takes just way too long.

Last edited by Zurgat : 07/23/07 at 6:47 AM.
#1729SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Already been discussed, starting here.
#1730SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chuu
Quick hunter question. I've been looking at Cheeky's spreadsheet and doing some BM hunter math, and I really want to write a simulator to verify some things since it looks like it's going to be the easier route for such a dynamic system. Does anyone know the formula for how a hunter's crit raiting effect's a pet crit raiting?
#1731SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3dR. dEVICE
I checked pretty much the whole thread. I was wondering what everyone thinks of bestial discipline the focus regen. Now with my gear and go for the throat i find my pet is generating a ton of focus during fights which is when it really matters. I am wondering if i remove this from my spec, will my dps suffer.

Thoughts and thanks.

PS Dragonspine trophy is awesome i highly recommend if you have the chance to pick one up its so choice.
#1732SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Female Tauren
I have been hearing a lot of good things about dragonspine trophy have been trying to get one. The problem however, is again my latency.

For someone with 350-600ish ms latency, do you think I should:

a) get it and only use instant shots when it procs
b) get it and keep on using the standard special/auto rotation during procs, there will be clips but it's still a dps increase
c) forget about it

If I should get it, which would result in more dps, a or b?

Also, should I spec out of IoAH if I get this trinket?


ty
#1733SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Chuu View Post
Quick hunter question. I've been looking at Cheeky's spreadsheet and doing some BM hunter math, and I really want to write a simulator to verify some things since it looks like it's going to be the easier route for such a dynamic system. Does anyone know the formula for how a hunter's crit raiting effect's a pet crit raiting?
Yes, there is no impact. Pet crit is based upon pet agility, which is not modified by your stats in any way.
#1734SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3dR. dEVICE
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
I have been hearing a lot of good things about dragonspine trophy have been trying to get one. The problem however, is again my latency.

For someone with 350-600ish ms latency, do you think I should:

a) get it and only use instant shots when it procs
b) get it and keep on using the standard special/auto rotation during procs, there will be clips but it's still a dps increase
c) forget about it

If I should get it, which would result in more dps, a or b?

Also, should I spec out of IoAH if I get this trinket?


ty
I still use the steady/auto macro at all times, but i have about 150-200 ms. Since I have had it I have increased my overall dps.

Any thoughts on specing out of bestial discipline? I am considering imp revive pet or armor in my spec. Thanks in advance.
#1735SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Ishmaael
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
I have been hearing a lot of good things about dragonspine trophy have been trying to get one. The problem however, is again my latency.

For someone with 350-600ish ms latency, do you think I should:

a) get it and only use instant shots when it procs
b) get it and keep on using the standard special/auto rotation during procs, there will be clips but it's still a dps increase
c) forget about it

If I should get it, which would result in more dps, a or b?

Also, should I spec out of IoAH if I get this trinket?


ty
Get it. I'm australian and my latency is also between 450 and 600, and ive found dragonspine invaluable. You can use instants if you want, but i personally dont change my shots in the rotation i simply speed up the auto / steady to the point where theres a split second gap between a perfect rotation and clipping off your auto.
#1736SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Repus
Ive been wondering is crit rating and attack power gems of better value for BM than straight agility gems for PVE?
#1737SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by dR. dEVICE View Post
I still use the steady/auto macro at all times, but i have about 150-200 ms. Since I have had it I have increased my overall dps.

Any thoughts on specing out of bestial discipline? I am considering imp revive pet or armor in my spec. Thanks in advance.
There really is no need to drop bestial discipline for anything else, because you cant get anything with more value at that tier. You should just drop 3 points out of endurance, which is really not that helpful if you go for PvE and put one of them in imp revive pet and 2 in imp mend pet.
The rest is a no brainer, the only choice left is, if depending on your pet class you drop the 5th point in frenzy for a second animal handler point. If you have a cat or ravager thats a good idea, with a serpent you should keep all 5.

Originally Posted by Repus View Post
Ive been wondering is crit rating and attack power gems of better value for BM than straight agility gems for PVE?
Please, the same question cant really be answered every second page in this thread. Please do yourself a favour and read back a bit. Since its being asked every day you wont have to read much.
#1738SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Bodoma
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
I have been hearing a lot of good things about dragonspine trophy have been trying to get one. The problem however, is again my latency.

For someone with 350-600ish ms latency, do you think I should:

a) get it and only use instant shots when it procs
b) get it and keep on using the standard special/auto rotation during procs, there will be clips but it's still a dps increase
c) forget about it

If I should get it, which would result in more dps, a or b?

Also, should I spec out of IoAH if I get this trinket?


ty
Well, looking at it from the perspective of a born and bred "huntard that lets his pet do all the work" (yet somehow end up toppling the damage charts?) I've played for a long time with similar latency problems, and so I think you should go for not using instant shots, on the contrary, that would be a total waste of the proc and what it's useful for. What i'd say you should do is spam this Steady shot/Kill Command macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
And probably start them off with an aimed shot. The latency will not inhibit you too badly, and you'll still be able to put out some nice dps spamming steady shots. I've not got a dragonspine trophy, however, i'm using the abacus of violent odds, and bladefist's breadth. Both pretty badass, considering the variation (along with rapid fire) that could come along with using those two trinkets. What I usuallly do is hit The Beast Within/Bestial Wrath, and then pop rapid fire (I of course have the rapid killing talents, no BM hunter should go without them unless they're speccedd for PvP, and even then they're handy) and the abacus of violent odds. When the haste buff is gone, I pop Bladefist's Breadth and fire off some more rounds with Beast Within active and put out my dps that way. Not for nothing, i've always seen the Beast Mastery tree as the most hunter friendly and the most raid friendly post the Before the Storm patch. Whereas Survival will benefit the melee/ranged dps classes with Expose Weakness, and allows for a high crit chance, the fact remains that, like the OP said, it gives casters nothing. Thusly, i've put points in FI so that all of my group/raid's dps is increased by 3%. Combine that with the focused fire talents, and a high crit chance on my part (21%) I always have Kill Command up, and they almost always crit. My pet itself (a raptor lololol) has it's own crits every now and then, so ferocious inspiration is pretty much always up. So, you take into account the high burst damage output every 2-3 minutes, and then the sustained dps in between, you should pretty much always be somewhere in the top 3 slots of the damage meters. You have to sync your pet's damage as your own, as well, to save for pointless math =P Via this, seeing as it is a hell of a viable raiding spec, it will give optimum damage from you, your pet, and your group/raid.
#1739SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
bodoma, never use aimed shot except with a misdirect. Especially as BM.

Like don't even put it on your bar.

Even in PvP open up with a steady shot, it will do more damage on most classes. Aimed shot costs more mana, has a longer cast time, and delays your next auto down to the un hasted weapon speed of your weapon. So with a 2.8 speed weapon and 20% haste and 15% quiver it still takes 2.8 seconds after the aimed goes off for the next auto to fire. Or you can go steady/auto/arcane/auto in a 2.02 window after the first steady left your weapon.

So, steady,auto,arcane,auto in a 2.02 time frame after breaking the trap/cc with the first shot, or..

Aimed,steady,arcane,auto in a 2.8 second time frame. The extra ~900 damage the aimed can do (disregarding armor) is not worth the .72 seconds longer it takes for that last auto to fire since if the target isn't snared they can get in your deadzone in 2.8 seconds and that last auto never fires. Therefore opening with a steady will get more damage in before getting them in your deadzone against classes without a movement speed buff (warrior, rogue w/sprint up, mage)
#1740SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Hydraton
sorry if this has already been asked, I couldn't find it.

How do you sync your pets damage with your own? I'm currently using the 'DPS meters' mod.
#1741SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
lord3vil
First post! Some quick facts: Started playing again mid May after a two year break from the game. My BM tauren(!) hunter reached level 70 last week. Started Kara attunement and did Shadow Lab on Sunday. I will greatly appreciate some input from more experienced players on the following situation which I encountered in there:

Tank pulls a pack of mobs. Pull is good. I've put down a freeze trap well in advance, so the trap cooldown is up when the pull starts. However, the mob resists my trap. Ok, I have another one ready, mob gets iceblocked. By this time, my pet is attacking the MT's target and I follow suit. However, my second trap breaks really early, and at this point, the trap cooldown is a long way off. I try to wing clip the mob, but I get dazed all the time and can't get away. I try to offtank it for a few seconds, but my hitpoints are dwindling fast and getting really low. The MT is still busy. I pull my pet over, it's at full health, put a mend pet on it and have it growl a couple of times to take aggro from me. Pet gets aggro but is losing health even faster than I did. At this point I'm at a distance, the trap cooldown is gone and I set a new trap. I shoot and shoot and shoot, but aggro remains on the pet for some reason. At this point, the healer chooses to step in and starts healing my pet to help me out, since a recast of mend pet isn't nearly enough for me to make it on my own. Without help, I'd just have to let my pet die and FD at this point. I continue shooting at the mob, but it continues to fight my pet until I eventually kill it after I don't know how many shots. I never got aggro back. Only a few seconds later do the other pulled mobs die.

This particular situation got me rather frustrated. I had my trap strategy all planned and sorted out. My timing was good and I executed it well. Nevertheless, I still got so screwed over by the random chance die roll lottery that I wouldn't have made it through this alive without assistance from the healer. (Oh well, there is always FD, provided it doesn't, you know, get resisted...)

Maybe I should immediately have misdirected the mob over to the MT after the second trap broke early? The problem with this strategy is that he was fighting more than one mob already and I feared the risk of a wipe at the time if I was to hand yet another one over to him. Then again, the healer could have healed the MT instead of my pet, so maybe this would have been the most appropriate thing to do.

Maybe I should have kited the mob back into the cleared rooms after my pet took over aggro. Just put pet on passive and go. The problem with this approach is that there were a scarce few mobs back there we didn't clear, and some skeletons also respawned early back there too.

I'm frustrated because I couldn't sustain myself on my own. After all, it was just one mob. I did forget to use aspect of the monkey though, but I suspect it wouldn't have made much of a difference here. I also suspect that using misdirection would have been the better way to go after the second trap broke, but at this point I'd like some input on this. Any advice? Suggestions? Thoughts? Please!

Another issue I have now is with hunter CC. Maybe I was just unlucky, it could very well be, but I experienced trap resists and early breaks on more than one occasion during the run. We also had a rogue and a mage in the group and I never saw the rogue's sap fail. The mage's sheep was resisted once, I think, if at all. Does hunter CC tools, i.e. freeze trap, have a higher resist/fail rate when compared to sheep/sap?

Last edited by lord3vil : 07/24/07 at 1:00 PM.
#1742SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Trap Resist is determined by normal rules for spells.

Resist chance:
Equal level: 4% chance to resist.
+1 level: 5% chance to resist.
+2 levels: 6% chance to resist.
+3 levels: [Mob] 17% chance to resist / [Player] 13% chance to resist.

Traps always have 1% to be resisted, regardless of your hit chance.
Resist checks happen both on initial application and on heartbeat ticks.

If you feel the need to reliably having traps working (not resisting), investing 1 point in Trap Mastery would probably be a good idea. Allocating 2 points are useless, unless you're trapping something that's 3+ levels above you.

In terms of escaping mobs that have closed in a bit too close for comfort, I find a Wing Clip + Warstomp + Cheetah combo helps in escaping a lot of the time.
Intimidation also helps, even for keeping the pet alive more (no attacks = more time for Mend Pet to tick = prevents the constantly depleting HP).
If the healer had time to heal your pet, your tank would probably be able to survive it as well, unless he was getting very low from whatever he was tanking.
#1743SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3lord3vil
As for the issues with hunter shot-rotations, I'm appalled at how poor the current system is. This is the best Blizzard could do after two years of developing and tweaking?

Much has been said about it, and here's my fix:

Disconnect auto-shot from all other shots and stings. When that's done you can turn auto-shot on, have it fire regularly, completely uninterrupted, no delays by shot/sting casts until it stops again. AFAIK, none of the other classes have to weave white and yellow damage, and neither should hunters.

At this point, the problem boils down to weaving only the specials together in such a way so as to maximize dps depending on the duration of the fight and whether or not you can drink in between fights. Auto-shot isn't part of the picture anymore. This leads to:
1. Button-mashers being able to do reasonable dps, as is the case with all the other dps-classes. This in turn will make hunters like the other classes.
2. Those who plan their rotations well will be able to do a bit more damage, but the vast discrapancies we see today will be gone. This in turn will make hunters like the other classes.

Adjust cost/cooldowns for balance if needed. That's really easy since it doesn't touch on fundamental game mechanics. Done. Over with.

Now get whatever ranged weapon you want, it will fire as you please. Magtheridon raiders won't have to run around with the 3.4 speed crap anymore because technology in the 21st century fails to reasonably model a world where arrows and gunpowder is the pinnacle of technology. Hunters will now benefit from haste effects like every other dps class (god forbid it should ever happen), and latency is suddenly less than half the issue it is for hunters today. The shot-weavers still get to play their game with the shot-rotations, having to attempt to use the specials in the most optimal sequence in any given situation. Casual gamers who haven't even heard of shot-rotations will also be able to dps well with their hunters.

(How more haste leads to less dps is so far beyond stupidity... I really don't have the words to express how I feel about it. These game mechanics get simplified and fixed, or I start an alt and eventually reroll.)

Now for the last part: The above sounds like a really reasonable, sound and easy fix to me. So simple in concept and execution in fact, that I suspect I might have forgotten something. Now what could it be? By all means, please enlighten me. If need be, I'll be happy to stand corrected on this.
#1744SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Originally Posted by lord3vil View Post
(How more haste leads to less dps is so far beyond stupidity... I really don't have the words to express how I feel about it. These game mechanics get simplified and fixed, or I start an alt and eventually reroll.)
More haste never leads to less DPS. If you fire the same specials at the same time as you would've pre-haste, none of your auto-shots will occur any later than they would've pre-haste. Therefore in the absolute worst case you do the same DPS as without haste. If you find yourself doing less DPS after haste, it is because you are reacting to the haste by choosing a lower DPS shot rotation.

At any attack speed you must strike a balance between delaying your next autoshot and delaying your next special shot. It takes a pretty extreme amount of haste to get to the point where letting 2 autoshots fire without a special in between them results in the highest DPS.

All that said I agree with you that our present situation is pretty silly. Diminishing returns on haste rating and Serpent's Swiftness being better than the entire Marksmanship tree don't seem to make a lot of sense. On the other hand, it makes for some interesting theorycrafting and I have been having a lot more fun with my hunter since 2.0.
#1745SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
All that said I agree with you that our present situation is pretty silly. Diminishing returns on haste rating and Serpent's Swiftness being better than the entire Marksmanship tree don't seem to make a lot of sense. On the other hand, it makes for some interesting theorycrafting and I have been having a lot more fun with my hunter since 2.0.
I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon. Blizzard made our changes in 2.0 specifically to address the shot weaving issues with Aimed Shot and slow weapons. I think they want to preserve the unique way Hunters do DPS, otherwise we become ranged Rogues.

Now, the way they have itemized epic ranged weapons to all be slow was a poor way to support the new mechanics. Up until Karazhan, a MM Hunter with a [Skyfire Hawk-Bow] can hold his own with a BM Hunter. Once the weapons slow down the MM Hunter either has to piss mana or fall behind. Some of the T6 haste helps here, but there is a massive itemization gap from Shattered Halls to Mount Hyjal.

If they ever do change it I'm going to miss the massive amount of work that goes into being a good Hunter. But if they don't change it were going to continue to have a radically segregated class between the TheoryCrafters and Joe Hunter. They can't pump up his DPS to comparable levels with other DPS classes without making those who understand the mechanics Gods with Bows.
#1746SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Daielgin
Just wanted to write and say thanks in my first post here. I've sat for the last few days and read the 70 pages and good reading it was to. I've learnt a lot over the past few days.

I've recently made the switch to BM like so many others and am enjoying the class a lot more than I was. I certainly saw the jump in DPS and it has really switched me onto the need to optimise my output. Still got a few things to do like change some gems over to +8agi and get the Bloodlust Broach, but I'm getting there.

Couple of things I would't mind knowing though. Firstly, where is the spot or what mobs are you testing your DPS on in Blasted Lands? And secondly, do people bother to buy/make Adamantite Shells or just stick with the rep ones from HH? I'm an engineer personally and do get a friendly miner to get me ore, but was just wondering.

Anyway, thanks again for the wealth of knowledge and any feedback on my kit/talens is much appreciated.
#1747SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Daielgin View Post
...where is the spot or what mobs are you testing your DPS on in Blasted Lands?
Servant of Allistarj - NPCs - World of Warcraft
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#1748SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Harwin
Originally Posted by lord3vil View Post
At this point I'm at a distance, the trap cooldown is gone and I set a new trap. I shoot and shoot and shoot, but aggro remains on the pet for some reason.
Hit passive. Pet runs back to you (mob still on him) and over your freeze trap. If it resists, at least he's still on the pet. If it succeeds he's frozen. There is no need to pull aggro off him.
#1749SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Originally Posted by lord3vil View Post


Disconnect auto-shot from all other shots and stings. When that's done you can turn auto-shot on, have it fire regularly, completely uninterrupted, no delays by shot/sting casts until it stops again. AFAIK, none of the other classes have to weave white and yellow damage, and neither should hunters.

Now for the last part: The above sounds like a really reasonable, sound and easy fix to me. So simple in concept and execution in fact, that I suspect I might have forgotten something. Now what could it be? By all means, please enlighten me. If need be, I'll be happy to stand corrected on this.
They can't disconnect the auto-shot from other shots because they don't want us running away non-stop kiting. The .5 second cast time is to require us to stop moving for .5 seconds in order to shoot, rather then us moving away and shooting on the fly.
#1750SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Murasame
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
They can't disconnect the auto-shot from other shots because they don't want us running away non-stop kiting. The .5 second cast time is to require us to stop moving for .5 seconds in order to shoot, rather then us moving away and shooting on the fly.
Maybe there is some part of your argument I'm not getting, but I don't see how unlinking specials from auto would allow us to non stop kite. If they were unlinked you would still need to stand still to fire auto shot, you would still need to stop for .5 secs for multishot, Your would be able to cast all stings, concussive shot and arcane shot on the run as you can currently. All I see unlinking specials from autos doing is allowing us to use our specials every time its up without worrying about interrupting auto shot.
#1751SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Rexpop
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
They can't disconnect the auto-shot from other shots because they don't want us running away non-stop kiting. The .5 second cast time is to require us to stop moving for .5 seconds in order to shoot, rather then us moving away and shooting on the fly.
Another solution would be to get rid of Auto Shot altogether and make Steady Shot the basic Hunter shot, buffing it of course to do the same damage as a Steady+Auto Shot combo does today, making scale with ammo and making it available from level 1.

This would also brings us into line with the other classes giving us a basic spam spell (a la Fireball, Shadowbolt etc), and wouldn't be a huge change to our current mechanics as we are pretty much spamming the steady shot button every 2 seconds and also kills off the auto-shot AFK Hunter meme for good.
#1752SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ezzy
Originally Posted by Hydraton View Post
sorry if this has already been asked, I couldn't find it.

How do you sync your pets damage with your own? I'm currently using the 'DPS meters' mod.
There's a more recent damage meter addon called "ReCount" that seems to be quite ok and merges automatically (even tho it shows the pet as a separate entity, it still merges it).

WowAce downloads
#1753SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Originally Posted by Murasame View Post
Maybe there is some part of your argument I'm not getting, but I don't see how unlinking specials from auto would allow us to non stop kite. If they were unlinked you would still need to stand still to fire auto shot, you would still need to stop for .5 secs for multishot, Your would be able to cast all stings, concussive shot and arcane shot on the run as you can currently. All I see unlinking specials from autos doing is allowing us to use our specials every time its up without worrying about interrupting auto shot.
Auto's aren't linked with specials really. Auto shot has a .5 second cast time, and it won't fire unless given that time to be cast.

If you fire an arcane just before the auto would of gone off, you would reset the auto shot cast time and .5 seconds into the GCD it would fire.

If you cast steady shot, then .5 seconds after steadyshot ends it will fire.
If you chain cast steady shot you lose the auto shot since you never let it get the .5 second cast time. Auto shot has the same cast time as multi shot, it just isn't on the tool tip.

So again, Specials and Auto Shot aren't linked, it's just that we can only cast one thing at a time, and they both need to be cast. Auto shot has a cast time of about .5 seconds, specials have varying cast times.
#1754SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
Auto's aren't linked with specials really. Auto shot has a .5 second cast time, and it won't fire unless given that time to be cast.

If you fire an arcane just before the auto would of gone off, you would reset the auto shot cast time and .5 seconds into the GCD it would fire.

If you cast steady shot, then .5 seconds after steadyshot ends it will fire.
If you chain cast steady shot you lose the auto shot since you never let it get the .5 second cast time. Auto shot has the same cast time as multi shot, it just isn't on the tool tip.

So again, Specials and Auto Shot aren't linked, it's just that we can only cast one thing at a time, and they both need to be cast. Auto shot has a cast time of about .5 seconds, specials have varying cast times.
Your last sentence hits the nail on the head, specials and autoshot are not "linked" per say but they are linked due to the cast time on autoshot. No other class has to wait on their autoattack to fire before using a special, just think if a rogue or warrior would have to wait on autoattack to use SS or MS without clipping autoattack. Something needs to be done involving either A autoshot cast time or SS cast time. My first thought would be make Steadyshot an instant cast using the GCD instead of 1.5sec cast time. The main issue there is then haste would not effect your SS which would hurt overall DPS and really hurting BM spec due to serpent swiftness. I'm not sure what the answer is but it is very frustrating some nights to try too hard and actually lose DPS because of clipping. I hate having to focus so hard not to lose DPS vs other classes have to focus to do better DPS.
#1755SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
If they made a new way to make it so that our auto shots don't require a .5 second cast time, yet still cannot be cast on the run, then we could, in essence, spam steady shot. Without needing to wait at all for auto shots, depending on your weapon speed, this could increase our dps as much as 20% probably, wich I don't believe would go over well with our current position on dps meters.
#1756SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
If they made a new way to make it so that our auto shots don't require a .5 second cast time, yet still cannot be cast on the run, then we could, in essence, spam steady shot. Without needing to wait at all for auto shots, depending on your weapon speed, this could increase our dps as much as 20% probably, wich I don't believe would go over well with our current position on dps meters.

Increase the cool down of Steadyshot to whatever is needed to = present DPS model for hunters. Of course then it pretty much turns SS into another arcane shot instead of a new shot. The whole problem comes from our ability to Kite in PVP effecting our ability to DPS in PVE. The sole purpose of a .5 sec cast time for autoshot and Multishot is to less a hunters kiting ability in PVP.
#1757SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3beathoven
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
Your last sentence hits the nail on the head, specials and autoshot are not "linked" per say but they are linked due to the cast time on autoshot. No other class has to wait on their autoattack to fire before using a special, just think if a rogue or warrior would have to wait on autoattack to use SS or MS without clipping autoattack. Something needs to be done involving either A autoshot cast time or SS cast time. My first thought would be make Steadyshot an instant cast using the GCD instead of 1.5sec cast time. The main issue there is then haste would not effect your SS which would hurt overall DPS and really hurting BM spec due to serpent swiftness. I'm not sure what the answer is but it is very frustrating some nights to try too hard and actually lose DPS because of clipping. I hate having to focus so hard not to lose DPS vs other classes have to focus to do better DPS.
I'm quite sure Blizzard will not give hunters yet another instant shot, that would make hunters extremely nasty in PvP. I'm also pretty sure Blizzard won't give up the idea of Auto Shots for hunters. The only way i could see how it could work is really decouple Auto Shots from Steady, Arcane and Multi-Shot, meaning, it can fire while you are casting a Steady Shot. This would ofc be very illogical (after all, you are currently trying to shoot a Steady Shot, how can your ranged weapon suddently decide to fire on its own accord?!), but overall this would get rid of the current situation. And you could always argue that Auto Shots are something "the ranged weapon does on it's own accord when activated", just like the Auto Attacks of melee classes. I'd even be fine with a special shot delaying a possible Auto Shot for 0.5s as it currently is, as thats not the heart of the broken mechanics currently.

As an example. Currently we have something like this with a 2.2s speed weapon on ideal conditions:

0.0s: Start Auto Shot
0.5s: Auto Shot fires
0.5s: Start Steady Shot
2.0s: Stead Shot fires
2.7s: Auto Shot fires
2.7s: Start Steady Shot
4.2s: Steady Shot fires
4.9s: Auto Shot fires
4.9s: Start Steady Shot
6.4s: Steady Shot fires
7.1s: Auto shot fires
7.1s: Start Steady Shot
8.6s: Steady Shot fires
9.3s: Auto Shot fires

etc.

Now, with the "dual" mechanic it would look like this:

0.0s: Start Auto Shot
0.0s: Start Steady Shot
0.5s: Auto Shot fires
1.5s: Steady Shot fires
1.5s: Start Steady Shot
2.7s: Auto shot fires
3.0s: Steady shot fires
3.0s: Start Steady Shot
4.5s: Steady Shot fires
4.5s: Start Steady Shot
5.0s: Auto Shot fires (notice the 0.1s delay because of the previously fired Steady Shot)
6.0s: Steady Shot fires
6.0s: Start Steady Shot
7.2s: Auto Shot fires
7.5s: Steady Shot fires
7.5s: Start Steady Shot
9.0s: Steady Shot fires
9.5s: Auto Shot fires (notice the 0.1s delay because of the previously fired Steady Shot)

4 Steady Shots and 5 Auto Shots in 9.3s versus 5 Steady Shots and 5 Auto Shots in 9.5s. Sounds quite reasonable imo, just make Steady Shot do a little less damage (approx. 10%) and hunter mechanic would be fixed for good.

Just my $0.02 ofc.
#1758SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3lord3vil
Originally Posted by Harwin View Post
Hit passive. [...] There is no need to pull aggro off him.
As obvious as this is, I have to admit I didn't even think about it before I read your post. The only excuse I have is that I'm still a noob. I haven't even done 10 instance runs yet. This is exactly what I should have done.
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
More haste never leads to less DPS.
I stand corrected on this then.
#1759SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
lord3vil
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
They can't disconnect the auto-shot from other shots because they don't want us running away non-stop kiting. The .5 second cast time is to require us to stop moving for .5 seconds in order to shoot, rather then us moving away and shooting on the fly.
Here's how you deal with that: Just keep the initial .5 sec cast on auto. Provided you stand still, only this initial 0.5 sec cast is required and nothing after that. If you move, auto stops. When you stop, a 0.5 sec automatic recast is needed to fire up auto again. Problem solved.
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
[example snipped]
4 Steady Shots and 5 Auto Shots in 9.3s versus 5 Steady Shots and 5 Auto Shots in 9.5s. Sounds quite reasonable imo, just make Steady Shot do a little less damage (approx. 10%) and hunter mechanic would be fixed for good.
That's very much along the lines I'm thinking in. I wholeheartedly agree.

Last edited by lord3vil : 07/25/07 at 11:51 AM.
#1760SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
I think Cheeky's expectation that Blizzard won't change our mechanics on a basic level in the near future is probably correct. If they were so inclined, I think an easy fix would be to adjust the damage autoshot does based on how long it is delayed. Instead of using your weapon's unmodified attack speed in the damage calculation, they could instead use (current time - time autoshot started)*(product of hastes). Using this calculation, the dps of each autoshot will be the same no matter how long it is delayed. They would also want to build in a maximum delay of 1.5 seconds or so, to keep people from getting too ridiculous with it (infinitely delaying an autoshot then 1 shotting a boss or player). In this case you would use the lesser of the above formula and (weapon attack speed) + 1.5*(product of hastes).

With this type of damage calculation you could delay every autoshot up to 1.5 seconds without losing any autoshot DPS. Almost any weapon speed would be okay, since you could find a rotation that delayed autoshot between 0 and 1.5 seconds. It preserves the shot-weaving feel to some extent, since you still have to stop for half a second to let auto fire.

BM would take a hit relative to the other trees, but that is a feature of any fix to the shot timing issue. PVP would be affected too, since you could do a steady/max delayed auto/arcane combo for more burst DPS than anything we currently have, but with people running around with 400 resilience and 10k+ unbuffed HP burst isn't as much of an issue as it was pre-TBC.

Of course this entire change depends on them keeping track of when an autoshot started. If they are already doing so then it is a fairly simple change to the autoshot damage calculation. Otherwise implementing it might be more work than other solutions.
#1761SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Gearknight
Originally Posted by lord3vil View Post
I'm frustrated because I couldn't sustain myself on my own. After all, it was just one mob. I did forget to use aspect of the monkey though, but I suspect it wouldn't have made much of a difference here. I also suspect that using misdirection would have been the better way to go after the second trap broke, but at this point I'd like some input on this. Any advice? Suggestions? Thoughts? Please!

Another issue I have now is with hunter CC. Maybe I was just unlucky, it could very well be, but I experienced trap resists and early breaks on more than one occasion during the run. We also had a rogue and a mage in the group and I never saw the rogue's sap fail. The mage's sheep was resisted once, I think, if at all. Does hunter CC tools, i.e. freeze trap, have a higher resist/fail rate when compared to sheep/sap?
This might not be what you want to hear, but for 5-mans (especially heroic) and Kara, what you really need to do is put a point into Trap Mastery (2 in clever traps is a good idea too). This really lets your CC keep up with other classes and will save your life repeatedly in situations where a resisted trap will mean that you get 2-shotted before you have time to react accordingly. A hybrid spec like 0/31/30 can still output great DPS in groups while picking up the important trap talents. The 41/20/0 spec that's popular among the hunters on this forum is typically used by people doing 25-man raids, and dependable hunter CC isn't a necessity in those instances.
#1762SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
We have had this discussion many times. The most visible one was in the Hunting hunters... thread in General. I'm pretty sure someone quoted a blue post where they said they do not intend to rework hunter shot mechanics.

We are what we are, its stupid and broken but we can top meters so I guess we have to settle for that.

I got tired of it and went back to my priest. Simple itemization no one could screw up (I can only wear cloth and I only need to stack +dmg), talents that (mostly) make sense and class mechanics that don't involve scrolling a mouse wheel for 4 hours at a time!
#1763SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
I think Cheeky's expectation that Blizzard won't change our mechanics on a basic level in the near future is probably correct. If they were so inclined, I think an easy fix would be to adjust the damage autoshot does based on how long it is delayed. Instead of using your weapon's unmodified attack speed in the damage calculation, they could instead use (current time - time autoshot started)*(product of hastes). Using this calculation, the dps of each autoshot will be the same no matter how long it is delayed. They would also want to build in a maximum delay of 1.5 seconds or so, to keep people from getting too ridiculous with it (infinitely delaying an autoshot then 1 shotting a boss or player). In this case you would use the lesser of the above formula and (weapon attack speed) + 1.5*(product of hastes).

With this type of damage calculation you could delay every autoshot up to 1.5 seconds without losing any autoshot DPS. Almost any weapon speed would be okay, since you could find a rotation that delayed autoshot between 0 and 1.5 seconds. It preserves the shot-weaving feel to some extent, since you still have to stop for half a second to let auto fire.

BM would take a hit relative to the other trees, but that is a feature of any fix to the shot timing issue. PVP would be affected too, since you could do a steady/max delayed auto/arcane combo for more burst DPS than anything we currently have, but with people running around with 400 resilience and 10k+ unbuffed HP burst isn't as much of an issue as it was pre-TBC.

Of course this entire change depends on them keeping track of when an autoshot started. If they are already doing so then it is a fairly simple change to the autoshot damage calculation. Otherwise implementing it might be more work than other solutions.
This ends up being even more broken. Now instead of not wanting to delay an auto, it is preferable to delay an auto. You can "save up" dps while firing shots that hit harder. This would end up giving us godly burst and encouraging all kinds of stupid shot delaying behavior.
#1764SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
This ends up being even more broken. Now instead of not wanting to delay an auto, it is preferable to delay an auto. You can "save up" dps while firing shots that hit harder. This would end up giving us godly burst and encouraging all kinds of stupid shot delaying behavior.
Agreed. I honestly believe the only reasonable "fix" to the hunter shot weaving "problem" would be to remove the .5second cast time on auto-shot and implement a different way of preventing its use on the run. I mean, I guarantee you the reason auto-shot even has a .5 second cast time is that it was the easiest way to prevent it from being fired on the run (all instant abilities can be used on the run, unless I've somehow missed something). I wonder if auto-shot is handled completely server-side (client requests start/stop of auto-shot, server handles casts) or if it is handled client side (client sends each shot to the server).
#1765SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
This ends up being even more broken. Now instead of not wanting to delay an auto, it is preferable to delay an auto. You can "save up" dps while firing shots that hit harder. This would end up giving us godly burst and encouraging all kinds of stupid shot delaying behavior.
If anything, the Hunter community has proven that if you give us a weird mechanic we will find an exploit in it to unbalance ourselves in relation to other DPS classes. And conversely your average Joe Hunter who doesn't TheoryCraft has trouble out-DPSing the tank.

I think there will be a lot more testing done with the next (if ever) change to Hunter mechanics. Right now Hunters who know what they are doing aren't bitching, and we have enough buffs given to us that the Huntards aren't looking like a waste of a raid spot.
#1766SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
svengarlic
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
This ends up being even more broken. Now instead of not wanting to delay an auto, it is preferable to delay an auto. You can "save up" dps while firing shots that hit harder. This would end up giving us godly burst and encouraging all kinds of stupid shot delaying behavior.
I don't see why it would be preferable to delay an auto. As long as you don't delay your auto by more than 1.5 seconds you will have the same autoshot dps no matter how much you delay it. You don't gain any additional dps by delaying your shot, you just don't lose any. The intent is to allow you to get your full autoshot dps and be casting most of the time between autoshots regardless of weapon speed. Faster weapons would still have the potential to fire more autoshots in a given time window, and slower autoshots would still have the highest potential single shot damage.

As far as pvp burst damage goes it would be better but I don't see it as godly. Under super hasted conditions if you are able to delay your autoshot by the full 1.5 seconds (which would be difficult because what are you going to use to delay auto at that level of haste? there would be more than .5 sec between steady end cast and gcd end) you gain maybe a full autoshot worth of damage. I guess that could put us over the top but I think it would be less extreme than the old aimed/auto/multi combo in the same time span.

Obviously completely decoupling autoshot from specials and allowing an auto to fly out of your bow during the cast time of a steady would be a more perfect solution. I think it is also much less likely to be implemented. They have said they won't change our mechanics dramatically, but there are 2 unacceptably broken symptoms of our current mechanics: 1) Marksmanship being an inferior raid DPS tree purely because its slower autoshots limit your ability to cast special shots and 2) Some higher DPS ranged weapons being inferior to weapons with lower DPS for the same reason.

Last edited by svengarlic : 07/25/07 at 3:07 PM.
#1767SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
what are you going to use to delay auto at that level of haste?
movement.

fire first auto, move x time, fire steady, fire arcane, fire multi, let second auto finally release.

I personally don't think it would be that unbalancing, and would only really play into PvP, but meh, it would be an issue. A 1-second max delay would be better (long enough to ensure a steady->multi wouldn't lose you any auto-shot damage, but short enough to lessen the ability to create large burst damage), but the theory in general would up hunter burst damage (which could be seen as needed imo).

Regardless, as I said the safest way to "fix" the problem is remove cast time and prevent auto-on-the-move some other way.
#1768SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
lord3vil
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
We have had this discussion many times. The most visible one was in the Hunting hunters... thread in General. I'm pretty sure someone quoted a blue post where they said they do not intend to rework hunter shot mechanics.
Having just returned to the game after a two year hiatus I'm shocked to see the amount of problems the hunter class still has with game mechanics and itemization. And honestly, looking the ratio of time passed since release to the amount of remaining problems to be solved with hunters doesn't give me any hope that our class will be fixed anytime soon.

Another way to look at it is to acknowledge that all the forces working to change the hunter class to something more viable are all pushing and pulling in so many different directions that the resultant changes are always much too small, too little, too late. Either that, or the hunter community at large, including the people at Blizzard, is mostly satisfied with our class the way it is.
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I got tired of it and went back to my priest. Simple itemization no one could screw up
At this point I've pretty much decided to reroll. I will opt for a class with simpler itemization, a class with a clear, crucial and well-defined role in the game, as well as gameplay-mechanics Blizzard has a grip on. A priest is one of the options I seriously consider. The warrior is so established as the main tank that Blizzard just can't afford to screw that up much in any way. (Paladins are better healers than priests at the moment, but they're also a hybrid class, and going by my experience with my hunter I just don't trust Blizzard to keep paladins a viable class over the remaining lifespan of the game. Besides, priests are good healers regardless, and have been from the beginning, which is my point.)

Another option is to take a hunter, remove the complicating pet (Blizzard doesn't know what to do with it anyway), make it melee instead of ranged (Blizzard clearly doesn't know how to implement ranged weapon combat properly anyway) and you get a... rogue, pretty much. In some ways, the rogue can be seen as a simplified hunter. Hopefully they won't screw up the somewhat complcated rogue itemization...

I never thought I'd make this decision, since the hunter class is the one that appeals to me the most by far, with the use of a ranged weapon and a pet. Never appreciated kiting much though, as it's just a too FPS-ish in a way for my tastes. That's just another reason for me to reroll right there I guess. The bottom line is that I've quickly come to discover that being really useful in a group when playing with my RL friends, as well as having fun(!), are the most important things.

My hunter just reached level 70 last week, so my gear consists of just greens and instance blues. I only spent a few weeks leveling him, so all in all I'm not too invested to turn around yet by any means. At least I can use him to learn some of the Kara stuff and pave the way with some experience for my next character.

Last edited by lord3vil : 07/25/07 at 3:16 PM.
#1769SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Originally Posted by Groggan View Post
movement.
Fair enough, but you are still spending enough time in autoattack to have done that amount of damage if you hadn't delayed it, and there is a limit to how much you can delay your auto for extra burst. I don't think it would be that overpowering, but it would surely be something to consider.

The reason I even brought up this idea as opposed to the total decoupling of auto and specials idea is that there is a timing element to hunter mechanics that is unique and in my opinion makes the class more fun. I would prefer if they could retain that while making MM and different attack speeds viable.
#1770SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
xbjim
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
They can't disconnect the auto-shot from other shots because they don't want us running away non-stop kiting. The .5 second cast time is to require us to stop moving for .5 seconds in order to shoot, rather then us moving away and shooting on the fly.
couldnt they make it so if you move while auto shooting it stops? like stopping a spell cast... maybe have it treat auto shooting like channeling a spell? or just have it work exactly like melee auto attacks and if theres any movement (jumping/x/y movement) its canceled.

if damage ends up being to much, reduce the rap% from arcane/steady to bring our DPS to where they want it.

Last edited by xbjim : 07/25/07 at 4:11 PM. Reason: update
#1771SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Howitzer
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
If anything, the Hunter community has proven that if you give us a weird mechanic we will find an exploit in it to unbalance ourselves in relation to other DPS classes. And conversely your average Joe Hunter who doesn't TheoryCraft has trouble out-DPSing the tank.

I think there will be a lot more testing done with the next (if ever) change to Hunter mechanics. Right now Hunters who know what they are doing aren't bitching, and we have enough buffs given to us that the Huntards aren't looking like a waste of a raid spot.
This post pretty much sums it up. The difference between a Hunter that theorycrafts or at least knows his class in-and-out is vastly superior to one that doesn't understand mechanics of shot rotations or gear selection / gemming. I guess that can be said for any class really, but its just more visible with Hunters.

As far as rerolling and choosing another class with a "more defined" role goes... well, I for one am a Hunter advocate in that I believe we are a very valuable part of a raid from pulls to misdirects to low-maintenance dps to high-survival rate and so on. Especially when you get into Hyjal and BT you'll just see so many places where Hunters are just so awesome to have around. Hyjal requires great kiting on many fights, physical damage helps a ton on a couple clothy bosses, too. In BT your ranged is excellent especially on RoS, Teron Gorefiend, and Supremus where you can just lay waste to the damage meters.

Overall, I'm very happy with how we are since 2.1 came out. Of course we have several issues that need to be addressed...but by no means do I think thats enough to put a cross on the class and drop it.

Last edited by Howitzer : 07/25/07 at 4:42 PM.
#1772SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
I don't see why it would be preferable to delay an auto.
Say this is how hard your shots hit (pretty typical):

Auto - 600
Steady - 700
Arcane - 700
Multi - 900

Why would you ever opt to fire a non delayed Auto when you can delay that auto, fire a special (which will do more damage in the given time) and then allow the auto to fire?

Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady - 3900 Damage

Or

Auto (delayed, double damage), Steady, Steady, Auto (delayed, double damage), Steady, Steady - 5200 Damage

Both happen in the same time window of 6 shots.

Giving us a 33% damage increase is broken. In your system it is always preferable to delay an auto shot with another special shot, up to the maximum delay allowed.
#1773SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Say this is how hard your shots hit (pretty typical):

Auto - 600
Steady - 700
Arcane - 700
Multi - 900

Why would you ever opt to fire a non delayed Auto when you can delay that auto, fire a special (which will do more damage in the given time) and then allow the auto to fire?

Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady - 3900 Damage

Or

Auto (delayed, double damage), Steady, Steady, Auto (delayed, double damage), Steady, Steady - 5200 Damage

Both happen in the same time window of 6 shots.

Giving us a 33% damage increase is broken. In your system it is always preferable to delay an auto shot with another special shot, up to the maximum delay allowed.
You can't perform this analysis without knowing the auto shot attack speed. I'm pretty sure your second set of shots are going to take longer. You'r probably going to have a decent DPS increase, but it really depends on the cycle speed.

Any fundamental de-linking of autoshot and specials is going to lead to Steady Shot spam, and massive DPS increases. I'd expect a huge >30% nerf to some of our specials to make up for that, or increase in cooldown to 2-3 seconds.
#1774SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
You can't perform this analysis without knowing the auto shot attack speed. I'm pretty sure your second set of shots are going to take longer. You'r probably going to have a decent DPS increase, but it really depends on the cycle speed.

Any fundamental de-linking of autoshot and specials is going to lead to Steady Shot spam, and massive DPS increases. I'd expect a huge >30% nerf to some of our specials to make up for that, or increase in cooldown to 2-3 seconds.
Yeah, it is a simple analysis, not meant to be comprehensive. The point is, as long as specials do more damage than auto and delaying an auto doesn't cost you anything (in his example you don't lose any auto dps by delaying one), you will benefit from delaying an auto shot as long as possible.
#1775SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Seipher
One of the only solutions to the problem I have come up with that doesn't require a change to auto-shot mechanics or the addition of another instant cast (not sure why another would be so bad when we only actually have one) is to either give us a new ability or make our toher abilities add damage to the next attack a la heroic strike.
#1776SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Bodoma
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
bodoma, never use aimed shot except with a misdirect. Especially as BM.

Like don't even put it on your bar.

Even in PvP open up with a steady shot, it will do more damage on most classes. Aimed shot costs more mana, has a longer cast time, and delays your next auto down to the un hasted weapon speed of your weapon. So with a 2.8 speed weapon and 20% haste and 15% quiver it still takes 2.8 seconds after the aimed goes off for the next auto to fire. Or you can go steady/auto/arcane/auto in a 2.02 window after the first steady left your weapon.

So, steady,auto,arcane,auto in a 2.02 time frame after breaking the trap/cc with the first shot, or..

Aimed,steady,arcane,auto in a 2.8 second time frame. The extra ~900 damage the aimed can do (disregarding armor) is not worth the .72 seconds longer it takes for that last auto to fire since if the target isn't snared they can get in your deadzone in 2.8 seconds and that last auto never fires. Therefore opening with a steady will get more damage in before getting them in your deadzone against classes without a movement speed buff (warrior, rogue w/sprint up, mage)
Oh, of course, but I love seeing a 1.5 second casted Aimed Shot =P I never use it in pvp, but I decided that I would need it in PvE situations for Misdirection and stuff. But to be honest, it's not too bad when I pop my trinkets and stuff, because for all the extra damage and speed i'm getting (otherwise known as dps =P ) my crit chance is 25-ish, so when the Aimed Shots do crit, and they do quite often, it adds a nice damage boost without me having wasted too much time. Pretty badass, if you ask me ^^ considering the 1.5sec cast with Rapid Fire and trinkets up.
#1777SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Is there some kind of list on how much base armor most bosses in TK, Hyjal and BT have? Or maybe does anyone know from experience?

Cause lately I'm getting in a bad mood concerning my dps standing in the raid. Of course, most fights really give lots of advantages to the casters who can perfectly multitask or make aoe damage, but somehow I feel my damage is slacking.
On most fights I can get around 1000-1100 dps, the best being 1300 on Solarian or Tidewalker, but I guess they have low armor and thats why I ask. (I'm not using a scorpid btw, cause I find that to be cheesy)

My calculations say I should be reaching about 1400dps on 30% armor mobs, so I'd really like to know if someone has a clue about the boss armor values, so I can either feel better or worse about the fact that I am still in place 6-7 with 1100-1300dps
#1778SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Krypt
On the first few fights in BT hunters are usually around mid table, but during the end they really show there true light. Infact we are now running with 3 on msot raids now adays. Last night I had 1800 DPS on Teron Gorefeind - which I found quite insane. I also topped the meter on ROS, and would have on sharhaz if I had stayed alive. Noted I ahd the best group I could basically get. ME (BM hunter), Surv Hunter, BM hunter, Feral druid, Shaman.

I dont use a scorpid either since I find them to "gimicky" and prefer using a cat, since im too lazy to level a ravanger ( roll on 2.2 ). I dont know but it seems to me that im scaling much better with my gear then otehrs becuase as you say I was around your postion a month ago but now I am basically always in the top 5.
#1779SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Djinn
Happen to have a WWS of your 1800dps performance?
#1780SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ezzy
Why are people not ok with Scorpid's dps? I find that very strange. It's working as intended imho. It lacks dps on trashes etc, but excels on bosses, why is that wrong or cheesy or gimmicky. It still requires skill and proper gear to make it shine.
#1781SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Breakerone
Originally Posted by Ezzy View Post
Why are people not ok with Scorpid's dps? I find that very strange. It's working as intended imho. It lacks dps on trashes etc, but excels on bosses, why is that wrong or cheesy or gimmicky. It still requires skill and proper gear to make it shine.
Well, I find it a little cheesy to use a bunch of buffs for 8 minutes instead for the planned 15-18 seconds and double your pets dps by that.

And in response to Krypt, yes like Djinn I would also love to see a WWS log. Your gear is nice, but without haste items, so I'd say to reach 1800dps, the mob would need to have close to 0 armor and you would have to shoot without moving the entire fight. (which might be possible, since I havent been to Gorefiend yet)

Last edited by Breakerone : 07/26/07 at 8:28 AM.
#1782SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Noah
Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
Happen to have a WWS of your 1800dps performance?
Seconded. 1800 seems a little extreme, even with a hugely stacked group, were you a ghost at any point? I'd be interested to see that log if it exists. Breakerone, its a stand a & shoot type of fight, full burn all the way, provided you aren't turned into a ghost.

Gimmicky or not I love my scorpid, since he did over 500 dps on Rage Winterchill and was showing up quite high on Omen he's become a bit of a raid mascot, and gets much buff and healing love.
#1783SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Noah View Post
Seconded. 1800 seems a little extreme, even with a hugely stacked group, were you a ghost at any point? I'd be interested to see that log if it exists.
WWS link. My DPS was 1639 but I had no shaman or feral druid, zero bloodlusts and my crit % was lower than average for both Steady and Auto. 1800 seems quite feasible in a stacked group.
#1784SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
WWS link. My DPS was 1639 but I had no shaman or feral druid, zero bloodlusts and my crit % was lower than average for both Steady and Auto. 1800 seems quite feasible in a stacked group.
He said without a scorpid. In your log the scorpid did 600 dps.
#1785SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Bodoma
My dps doesn't break out that high, seeing as i'm still in some blues and stuff, and haven't really gotten a chance to do outside of anything either post-TBC, Kara, and Maulgar. Was wondering though about the Shade of Aran fight as a Beast Mastery hunter. I was asked to spec Surival for a while, and have been that throughout the 2 or so months that I've been raiding Kara, but now i'm back to BM. Going for Shade of Aran tonight, and I was wondering if my pet was immune to some of the stuff he does other than flame wreath. My only worry is that in that fight especially, my framerate is around 20fps or lower, and sometimes stalls, which can be deadly then. Wise to keep my pet out in that situation?
#1786SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Ezzy View Post
Why are people not ok with Scorpid's dps? I find that very strange. It's working as intended imho. It lacks dps on trashes etc, but excels on bosses, why is that wrong or cheesy or gimmicky. It still requires skill and proper gear to make it shine.
It exploits the same thing the old rolling ignite did. It's an unintended side effect of an ability that probably wasn't scrutinized closely. Who knows if they are going to let it stick around or not. I lean towards no, for all the same reasons I figured lightning breath was going to get nerfed.

They have demonstrated time and time again, that anytime one pet is more than marginally better than the others it gets tuned down. This has been true for every possible deviation pets have had from day 1. Run speed, health, armor, spell damage melee, resists, lightning breath, etc.

My guess is that 2.2 will bring a greatly reduced coefficient or they change it so it re-evaluates the pets spell damage every tic/application. The easier of the two is a reduced coefficient (like LB 48%->10%), which makes that much more likely.
#1787SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
fool
between talon of al ar / hourglass and bloodlust brooch, what combo is 2 best for pve beastmaster hunter with ultimate gear etc?

Last edited by fool : 07/26/07 at 3:01 PM.
#1788SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kolusius
I'd say the hourglass and brooch. I don't use arcane often enough to warrant using the Talon, and even if I hit it every cooldown, I think it was proven that the buff from it isn't much of an increase.
#1789SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
I also topped the meter on ROS, and would have on sharhaz if I had stayed alive. Noted I ahd the best group I could basically get. ME (BM hunter), Surv Hunter, BM hunter, Feral druid, Shaman.
Just a note in ideal group make-up: That survival hunter adds nothing to your group, other than the round-about help you get from him having access to your feral Druid. Your ideal group would have him in another group (with a different feral Druid) and give you a MM hunter, a 3rd BM hunter, a 2nd shaman, a Shadow Priest, or a Warlock for the extra HP.

Also... WWS of 1800 dps?
#1790SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Daielgin
Bit off topic, but I've just been filling in Cheeky's spreadsheet for the first time (I know well behind the times, nice work btw fella, really handy) and the thought hit me that I've read all the posts here saying that the +8agi gems are the way forward. My question is though, does the enchants follow this logic as well? At the moment I've got the +15agi on hands and +35agi on my Sonic Spear (Legacy will drop one of these days), but would I be better off switching to the AP enchants, what are people's opinions?
#1791SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Relwin
Originally Posted by Krypt View Post
On the first few fights in BT hunters are usually around mid table, but during the end they really show there true light. Infact we are now running with 3 on msot raids now adays. Last night I had 1800 DPS on Teron Gorefeind - which I found quite insane. I also topped the meter on ROS, and would have on sharhaz if I had stayed alive. Noted I ahd the best group I could basically get. ME (BM hunter), Surv Hunter, BM hunter, Feral druid, Shaman.

I dont use a scorpid either since I find them to "gimicky" and prefer using a cat, since im too lazy to level a ravanger ( roll on 2.2 ). I dont know but it seems to me that im scaling much better with my gear then otehrs becuase as you say I was around your postion a month ago but now I am basically always in the top 5.
Along with a few others, not to say it isn't possible, but I'd certainly like to see where all that damage came from without a spriest and no scorpid. I typically use a cat on that fight as well and have decent enough gear that I have topped out at around 1700 DPS on that fight with the right grouping. However, at current that's probably about 30 DPS below my max DPS on Teron (with a 40DPS swing either way depending on crits and such) with my current gear level, which saw some upgrades last night from the latter half of BT.

It's a sweet fight for a BM hunter no doubt, but gees man, share some tips.
#1792SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Originally Posted by Serpica View Post
Just a note in ideal group make-up: That survival hunter adds nothing to your group, other than the round-about help you get from him having access to your feral Druid. Your ideal group would have him in another group (with a different feral Druid) and give you a MM hunter, a 3rd BM hunter, a 2nd shaman, a Shadow Priest, or a Warlock for the extra HP.

Also... WWS of 1800 dps?
Not true, unless the SV's group also had a shaman dropping GoA. GoA (especially if it is improved) gives 111 agi to an SV hunter, which translates into 27.75 additional AP from EW. Ignoring mana issues that would be an optimal group (if mana is an issue a spriest would probably be better for the BM's personal DPS).

Edit: Well, I suppose TSA from an MM hunter would be more for the BM's personal DPS, but almost assuredly less raid-wide. Bleh, I hate hunter (lack of) group-synergy.
#1793SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Groggan View Post
Not true, unless the SV's group also had a shaman dropping GoA. GoA (especially if it is improved) gives 111 agi to an SV hunter, which translates into 27.75 additional AP from EW. Ignoring mana issues that would be an optimal group (if mana is an issue a spriest would probably be better for the BM's personal DPS).

Edit: Well, I suppose TSA from an MM hunter would be more for the BM's personal DPS, but almost assuredly less raid-wide. Bleh, I hate hunter (lack of) group-synergy.
I wonder why most of you never mention a warrior in your perfect group. The battle shout is just as good a buff as the 5% crit or another BM hunter.
#1794SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I wonder why most of you never mention a warrior in your perfect group. The battle shout is just as good a buff as the 5% crit or another BM hunter.
Battle shout doesn't affect ranged attack power.
#1795SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Battle Shout affects pet DPS.
#1796SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fekta
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
Battle shout doesn't affect ranged attack power.
Last time I checked 300 some odd ATP for your pet is nothing to scoff at.
#1797SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Battle Shout affects pet DPS.
It only affects white DPS, so I guess there are numbers to run. Is that enough to compensate for the fact that it's not helping ranged at all? My pet's white DPS is 20% of my overall DPS on a good day.

BM buff:
1000 * 1.03 = 1030.

To get those numbers with Battle shout:
800 unaffected * 1.00 = 800
200 * (1 + x) = 230

x = 15% - Battle Shout needs to increase my pet's white DPS by 15% to be equivalent to BM buff. Does it do that?
#1798SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post

x = 15% - Battle Shout needs to increase my pet's white DPS by 15% to be equivalent to BM buff. Does it do that?
Actually it does more then that, and on top it also affects kill command.
#1799SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Actually it does more then that, and on top it also affects kill command.
Good point, I didn't consider Kill Command. Now all I need to do is find a way to steal a warrior!
#1800SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shaile
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Battle Shout affects pet DPS.
my gut feeling tells me increasing the pets AP by 300 odd something doesn't beat out a third BM hunter increasing both you AND your pets dps by 3%.

my group setup im going for in raids is 3x BM hunters, 1x enhancement shaman with imp str and agi totems and 10% ap increase and a feral druid.

i dont really see any combination that beats out that but feel free to try to convince me otherwise.

and thats not just me as hunter trying to improve us BMs the most, i firmly believe there is no other group setup that compliment each other as 3xBM, feral and enhancement shaman since we ALL improve each other, where in conventional groups rouges or mages just leech.

personally i put the surv hunter in the tank group. (or any group with shaman who can put down agi totem).

if your raid swing that way, you might have a pala judging wisdom too so you dont have to spam fel mana pots. tbh, +damage buff is the best buff there is since it increase EVERYTHING in opposite to +crit +hit +ap +haste or whatever.

Last edited by Shaile : 07/26/07 at 4:27 PM.
#1801SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I wonder why most of you never mention a warrior in your perfect group. The battle shout is just as good a buff as the 5% crit or another BM hunter.
It's because there are only 5 spots in a group and you have to pick and choose. You also have to consider what that warrior would gain by being in the group. Regardless, until Blizzard decides to let windfury affect ranged attacks somehow (and pet/druid attacks), and perhaps battle shout effect rap also, the ideal hunter group (for the hunter) really doesn't have room for a warrior (you want LotP, GoA/Mana Spring|Tide, and ideally you want to allow as many hunters as you can to benefit from those two buff-sources).

Regardless, this is getting out of the realm of "BM Raiding Hunters in 2.1 Theorycrafting", maybe we should start another thread about Hunter Synergy (and get other classes/raid leaders involved)?
#1802SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
my gut feeling tells me increasing the pets AP by 300 odd something doesn't beat out a third BM hunter increasing both you AND your pets dps by 3%.
Does FI stack? I was under the impression that it did not.
#1803SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reipin Pillage
It does stack
#1804SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zenge
100% does stack.

Most of my raids we end up getting a 3bm sp feral group and its pretty nasty.
#1805SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Tilethryn
Quick question for those of you using a scorpid: I understand the gist of what you do (pop TBW/trinks pre-initial application and just keep the poison stack up) but some of the more subtle points have me confused. Should I be using rank 4 or 5 of the poison? I've seen some suggest four because its easier to keep up, but just trying to find out if five works equally well. What about claw? Seems it would be a good focus dump in between applications, or does it end up leeching too much focus and causing a missed poison application, loosing the damage bonus?

My guild has cleared Gruul/Kara and is just starting on Mag/Voidreaver so I'll stick with my cat until I know what I can do, but I figure until this gets patched/hot fixed I'd like to check it out from a strictly min/maxxing point of view.

P.S. Only BM in guild atm, so no need to worry about trading ranks of scorpid poison ^.^.
#1806SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Relwin
If you are the only hunter using a scorpid then stick to rank 4 so that you have some error room on misses to keep your stack going. If there is another hunter with a scorpid you could both use rank 5, since you are BM, you start the stack then have him chime in to build it. But the damage difference isn't really big enough to not use rank 4 all the time.

Claw is miniscule compared to the amount of damage a well stacked poison can do. Just turn it off or manually dump focus to it, but be sure that you ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have enough focus for posion.
#1807SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
my gut feeling tells me increasing the pets AP by 300 odd something doesn't beat out a third BM hunter increasing both you AND your pets dps by 3%.

Well, if you really have the best equipment available and you do like 2500dps fully buffed and pre armor, "then" another BM hunters 3% will yield you more damage then a regular warriors battle shout. But if the warrior has 5/5 in CP his battleshout will always give you more.

To answer the question what a warrior gets out of this group: everything. A hunters dream group is also a dps warriors dream group. And its:
Warrior: battleshout
BM Hunter: 3% damage
Feral: 5% crit
Shammy: 10% AP, Agi/Strength/Bloodlust/Stormstrike
Dazing Rogue (yea, of course you'd like the SP, but he doesnt add to your damage and asking for one is asking for a wrong group composition)
#1808SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Originally Posted by Relwin View Post
If you are the only hunter using a scorpid then stick to rank 4 so that you have some error room on misses to keep your stack going. If there is another hunter with a scorpid you could both use rank 5, since you are BM, you start the stack then have him chime in to build it. But the damage difference isn't really big enough to not use rank 4 all the time.

Claw is miniscule compared to the amount of damage a well stacked poison can do. Just turn it off or manually dump focus to it, but be sure that you ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have enough focus for posion.
If you had two scorpid using hunters would it not be better to use a rank 3 and a rank 4 so that you have two high damage stacks going?
#1809SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Actually it does more then that, and on top it also affects kill command.
For my Scorpid 300 AP adds 41 DPS to white damage, and 10 DPS to KC-spam. That's a jump from 156+72 to 197+82, or just over 22%. Since everything for KC and Melee scales the same for all pets this same gain would be seen for any other BM Hunter with ~1800 RAP and 30% crit.

Very nice threat-free increase in total damage.
#1810SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Groggan
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Well, if you really have the best equipment available and you do like 2500dps fully buffed and pre armor, "then" another BM hunters 3% will yield you more damage then a regular warriors battle shout. But if the warrior has 5/5 in CP his battleshout will always give you more.

To answer the question what a warrior gets out of this group: everything. A hunters dream group is also a dps warriors dream group. And its:
Warrior: battleshout
BM Hunter: 3% damage
Feral: 5% crit
Shammy: 10% AP, Agi/Strength/Bloodlust/Stormstrike
Dazing Rogue (yea, of course you'd like the SP, but he doesnt add to your damage and asking for one is asking for a wrong group composition)
I don't know of a single warrior that would dream of GoA over WF

edit: But, stacking FIs does make things more interesting.

do they stack like:
X= initial damage
X*1.03*1.03

or
X*1.06?

Last edited by Groggan : 07/26/07 at 6:02 PM.
#1811SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Multiple Ferocious Inspiration stack multiplicatively.
1.03*1.03
#1812SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
If you had two scorpid using hunters would it not be better to use a rank 3 and a rank 4 so that you have two high damage stacks going?
Provided both hunters are BM, yes, rank 3 and rank 4 would be best.
#1813SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Syrene
I fairly certain that this question may not belong in this thread. If it doesn't hopefully someone can direct me to the relevant thread or move this post there instead. I'm a MM hunter (I know BM is the superior raid choice) and my raid is going to down Al'ar any day now. My question is this. I'm currently using Bloodlust Broach and Hourglass. How does the Al'ar trinket compare to either of these two if I'm going to be shooting Arcane off every cooldown?
#1814SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Syrene View Post
I fairly certain that this question may not belong in this thread. If it doesn't hopefully someone can direct me to the relevant thread or move this post there instead. I'm a MM hunter (I know BM is the superior raid choice) and my raid is going to down Al'ar any day now. My question is this. I'm currently using Bloodlust Broach and Hourglass. How does the Al'ar trinket compare to either of these two if I'm going to be shooting Arcane off every cooldown?
This would probably be a good thread to start with.
#1815SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Furo
Well holy hell...

Hunter changes on the table

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> About hunter revamp: some ideas

Well we did read it and I must say that I personally find many of these ideas quite interesting.

*scribbles stuff down in notepad*

I would just like to repeat what we have mentioned in other threads, that the developers are looking into the whole Hunters in Arenas situation because Hunters are somewhat under-represented in the Arenas. When that has been said however, I do not think that we should expect to see another complete Hunter class revamp... At least not before the next expansion that is. Changes and improvements are more likely to come in steps from now on, and with that in mind we should hopefully be receiving some more info relatively soon on what is being planned for Hunters to make them more viable in the Arenas at least.

We will keep you posted as information becomes available :-)

-Vaneras
Glad to see the wheels are turning.
#1816SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3fool
I would like to ask, something which i noticed happens frequently with my shot rotation and i had to drop everything but the beastmaster macro that i have to hammer.

I have archimonde's bow, and 2.01 tooltip speed with no hastes on besides haste gloves and belt.

When stuff begins to proc like bloodlust/quickshots/rapid fire, it obviously becomes clearly impossible to fit any kind of shot there.


I would like to ask clarifications from people way more advanced than me on hunters on:

1) Would the speed at which i press that specific macro ever have a negative effect from spamming it? (yes the classic kc+steady one)

2) I am going under 2.01 speeds with any haste procs so i should 100% get negative effect when i use arcane shot unless i am moving or changing positions?

3) Would my extreme haste, ( likely to increase in the near future ) have a problem with kc bring in the macro, should i make some kind of different macro, in fear of KC being in there is delaying shots that my haste could have gotten off.

4) Haste effects seem to be the way to go, and i rarely miss anything with 85-100 hit ( possibly 7-10 shots every 1000+?) but would some other way of BM cycle prove optimal?

Anybody with top hastes tested this ? or is it only all about steady-auto, as fast as possible and look at the numbers...


I would really appreciate some technical enlightenment.
#1817SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by fool View Post
I would like to ask, something which i noticed happens frequently with my shot rotation and i had to drop everything but the beastmaster macro that i have to hammer.

I have archimonde's bow, and 2.01 tooltip speed with no hastes on besides haste gloves and belt.

When stuff begins to proc like bloodlust/quickshots/rapid fire, it obviously becomes clearly impossible to fit any kind of shot there.


I would like to ask clarifications from people way more advanced than me on hunters on:

1) Would the speed at which i press that specific macro ever have a negative effect from spamming it? (yes the classic kc+steady one)

2) I am going under 2.01 speeds with any haste procs so i should 100% get negative effect when i use arcane shot unless i am moving or changing positions?

3) Would my extreme haste, ( likely to increase in the near future ) have a problem with kc bring in the macro, should i make some kind of different macro, in fear of KC being in there is delaying shots that my haste could have gotten off.

4) Haste effects seem to be the way to go, and i rarely miss anything with 85-100 hit ( possibly 7-10 shots every 1000+?) but would some other way of BM cycle prove optimal?

Anybody with top hastes tested this ? or is it only all about steady-auto, as fast as possible and look at the numbers...


I would really appreciate some technical enlightenment.
1) you can only go to slow, not to fast (as long as you dont start to lag)
2) I dont really understand the question here
3) yes, at some point you will have problems having KC in the macro, because the macro casts KC before the autoshot, which will delay it. If you arrive at passive hasted speeds of about 1.75-2.0 (depending on your connection) you will either have to try to cast KC manually or you will have to drop it completely for a clean rotation.
4) not really
#1818SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
rather then dropping KC completely, you can make two macros, one that goes auto/steady then another that goes auto/KC/steady, once you crit using the first one, start spamming the second and the KC shouldn't go off until just after the auto fires and just before the steady causing no delay.
#1819SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3lord3vil
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Especially when you get into Hyjal and BT you'll just see so many places where Hunters are just so awesome to have around. Hyjal requires great kiting on many fights, physical damage helps a ton on a couple clothy bosses, too.
As for kiting, I just bought a new mouse more suited for that purpose, the Logitech MX514:

Using the two buttons on the side in the picture, I mapped the foward arrow button to move and steer and the backward button to flip camera. This worked great for kiting as far as I can tell, as I could hold move and steer pressed, periodically clicking the other button to look behind me. Jumping and shooting now became a reasonably simple task. I did some practicing kiting mobs along the roads in Netherstorm, pulling them after me until they died. With this mouse I didn't find kiting hard at all and I even think I could actually grow to enjoy it!

However, I know nothing about what is required in terms of kiting skills in Hyjal. If someone tells me kiting in there requires more skill than pulling your average mob around somewhere in Netherstorm, I won't be surprised. Is there somewhere in the game I can solo practice kiting (i.e. outside instances) on roughly the same level as is required in the most difficult instances? Not necessarily as risky in terms of dying of course, but some sort of kiting tasks that require a comparable amount of skill to do.
#1820SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3fool
could you please show me both macros to be sure?
#1821SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by lord3vil View Post
However, I know nothing about what is required in terms of kiting skills in Hyjal.
There's nothing particularly difficult in Hyjal. Pull a mob to some other mobs, feign death, win. If you've done Razorgore or the Winterspring demon quest pre-TBC you're already good enough for pretty much anything in raid content, past or present.
#1822SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Vulcan, I use the exact same mouse.

Btw @ Lactose,

You ever theorycraft the DPS boost of armor penetrating items like Choker of Serrated Blades and T6 gloves, etc? Whats the benefit of this passive boost in raw damage? I'm assuiming it boosts crit percentage and physical damage dealt non-crit also. But how much?
#1823SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Vulcan, I use the exact same mouse.

Btw @ Lactose,

You ever theorycraft the DPS boost of armor penetrating items like Choker of Serrated Blades and T6 gloves, etc? Whats the benefit of this passive boost in raw damage? I'm assuiming it boosts crit percentage and physical damage dealt non-crit also. But how much?
Armor has nothing to do with crit rates, you are thinking of defense.

If you want to see the effects of armor penetration you can use Cheeky's sheet. Put in a typical armor value for the mobs you will be fighting, note your dps, then reduce it by whatever penetration you have/can get.

I played around with this some and the BL set bonus ended up being about a 10% dps increase for me. Well worth banking a ton of other epics for. Optimal choices for me were head, shoulders, gloves and legs (lets me keep 3/3 Ebon Netherscale).
#1824SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Armor has nothing to do with crit rates, you are thinking of defense.

If you want to see the effects of armor penetration you can use Cheeky's sheet. Put in a typical armor value for the mobs you will be fighting, note your dps, then reduce it by whatever penetration you have/can get.

I played around with this some and the BL set bonus ended up being about a 10% dps increase for me. Well worth banking a ton of other epics for. Optimal choices for me were head, shoulders, gloves and legs (lets me keep 3/3 Ebon Netherscale).
Alright I'll try it and see what I come up with.
#1825SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Ryas
Since I transfered to Bonechewer as a recruit to VM, my latency has gone up about 100-150ms (due to it being a west coast server), which I believe may be gimping my DPS a little bit. I'm currently using this macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Wondering if there is something different I should be doing to maybe compensate for the lag.
#1826SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
Since catching up on this threads recent posts i noticed the part about grouping, and most specifically grouping to max your raids performance. In my guild we usually raid with 2 hunters (myself and 2 that raid less often, end result is 2bms 1 MM). Our guild has around 2Feral druids per raid, and 1 enhancement shaman. Generally the one spriest goes into the mage/lock group, another into a healers group, and the "dps" group goes enh shammy + feral druid + 3 melee (rogues or warriors). I and the other hunters are then shoved into a left over group with a possible Lotp druid but probably just paladins and other left overs.

I wanted to know if this really was optimal for the raids performance? I realise its far from concrete numbers, but generally I top the damage meter, followed by one of the warriors and 1 of the rogues. The other melee are fairly undergeared and not really core raiders, and i feel that while the option of giving 3 ppl in the group WF is very nice, it might be higher damage to give 5 people GoA, assuming those 5 are all top-notch and that the LotP druid + shaman would get more benefit to there own damage.

Anyone run the math? i want to "fight for my right" to a decent damage group (though i dont really need it) but i don't want him to turn around and call me out for being selfish or whatever.
#1827SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
By the way, i just threw my current gear into your spreadsheet cheeky, and i cant find where but somewhere with teh same gear, enchants and gem's i have exactly the same hit rating, attack power but .60 % crit less. I'll keep investigating.
#1828SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Your crit rate depends on your target, against a higher level target it is lowered (and vice versa). This is probably where the differences in listed crit rate comes from, and is also why you won't crit 30% of the time against a boss if your paperdoll crit is 30%.

In the future, spreadsheet stuff should be posted in the spreadsheet thread, though
#1829SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
Oh im terribly sorry that was meant for the other thread, i'll edit it out and move it over.

PS: i was referring to char sheet crit
#1830SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Tilethryn
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Armor has nothing to do with crit rates, you are thinking of defense.

If you want to see the effects of armor penetration you can use Cheeky's sheet. Put in a typical armor value for the mobs you will be fighting, note your dps, then reduce it by whatever penetration you have/can get.

I played around with this some and the BL set bonus ended up being about a 10% dps increase for me. Well worth banking a ton of other epics for. Optimal choices for me were head, shoulders, gloves and legs (lets me keep 3/3 Ebon Netherscale).
How do you get an idea of the typical armor values of mobs you're fighting? My guild is just starting Mag and still tooling around in Kara/Gruuls. I could easily bank some epics and socket my Beast Lord Helm and throw on that, gloves, shoulders, and legs for the four piece bonus (while keeping Ebon Netherscale like you said ^.^), but I've never had a way to determine how good the 600 armor penetration is. As BM using the standard auto/steady/kc, I would imagine that the set bonus would almost always be active, so its just a matter of knowing armor values to test/compare.
#1831SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Fekta
Originally Posted by Tilethryn View Post
How do you get an idea of the typical armor values of mobs you're fighting? My guild is just starting Mag and still tooling around in Kara/Gruuls. I could easily bank some epics and socket my Beast Lord Helm and throw on that, gloves, shoulders, and legs for the four piece bonus (while keeping Ebon Netherscale like you said ^.^), but I've never had a way to determine how good the 600 armor penetration is. As BM using the standard auto/steady/kc, I would imagine that the set bonus would almost always be active, so its just a matter of knowing armor values to test/compare.
Finding the exact value for AC on mobs has been my issue with modeling armor pen and it's actual increase in physical damage per point of armor pen. You can take a mob un-sundered and sundered and look at the avg difference per shot over the course of several hundred shots to "guesstimate" how how much armor pen. effects physcial damage; but thats far from empirical proof.



Not sure if this has been covered but it does seem to stack multiplicativly(please correct me if im wrong here)

EDIT: Has anyone ever looked at one of those game guides? I wonder if they have mob AC's listed.

Last edited by Fekta : 07/28/07 at 1:27 PM.
#1832SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Ryas
Originally Posted by Ryas View Post
Since I transfered to Bonechewer as a recruit to VM, my latency has gone up about 100-150ms (due to it being a west coast server), which I believe may be gimping my DPS a little bit. I'm currently using this macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Wondering if there is something different I should be doing to maybe compensate for the lag.
Bump...
#1833SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zedd
I have a fast question I cant find in other places.

Currently I am very happy with my shadow priest, It means iI can afford to use haste potions ect. but mage's also struggle with mana so I am trying to get resto shaman into my group
Does FI affect heals? I know it says damage, but spelldamage also affects heals. thus the question'.

TY
#1834SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fekta
Originally Posted by Zedd View Post
I have a fast question I cant find in other places.

Currently I am very happy with my shadow priest, It means iI can afford to use haste potions ect. but mage's also struggle with mana so I am trying to get resto shaman into my group
Does FI affect heals? I know it says damage, but spelldamage also affects heals. thus the question'.

TY

Ferocious Inspiration - Spells - World of Warcraft

I would say no =)
#1835SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ellurion
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
Is there some kind of list on how much base armor most bosses in TK, Hyjal and BT have? Or maybe does anyone know from experience?

Cause lately I'm getting in a bad mood concerning my dps standing in the raid. Of course, most fights really give lots of advantages to the casters who can perfectly multitask or make aoe damage, but somehow I feel my damage is slacking.
On most fights I can get around 1000-1100 dps, the best being 1300 on Solarian or Tidewalker, but I guess they have low armor and thats why I ask. (I'm not using a scorpid btw, cause I find that to be cheesy)

My calculations say I should be reaching about 1400dps on 30% armor mobs, so I'd really like to know if someone has a clue about the boss armor values, so I can either feel better or worse about the fact that I am still in place 6-7 with 1100-1300dps
Please record some of your raid logs on wws.

Thanks!
#1836SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Ellurion View Post
Please record some of your raid logs on wws.

Thanks!
I have logs for most of them. Which one are you interested in?
#1837SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
Originally Posted by Zedd View Post
I have a fast question I cant find in other places.

Currently I am very happy with my shadow priest, It means iI can afford to use haste potions ect. but mage's also struggle with mana so I am trying to get resto shaman into my group
Does FI affect heals? I know it says damage, but spelldamage also affects heals. thus the question'.

TY

FI totals up your output by 3%. It does not affect any stats, just adds an extra 3% on top of your current output.

So no.

Sheesh Zed :P /hug
#1838SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Casander
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Multiple Ferocious Inspiration stack multiplicatively.
1.03*1.03
Are you sure of this? I thought I remembered seeing the actual dps difference showing up in my tooltip for the dps just like focused fire does, making me to believe it's additive. Regardless, 3% of 3% is still only .09% of a dps increase, which is less than 1 dps to 1.5 dps depending on the hunter.
#1839SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3rokabud
Originally Posted by Ryas View Post
Bump...
I'm playing with around 200-300 ms, I dont encounter any problems unless i get under haste, in which case i usually omit using KC.
#1840SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ladwenae
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I have logs for most of them. Which one are you interested in?
Are the mobs AC lowered as much as possible in your raids, I think this might be the issue and why he want to see the WWS? ( should show in avg hit size I guess? )
#1841SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Multiple Ferocious Inspiration stack multiplicatively.
1.03*1.03
The times we've had 3 BM hunters it has shown as 9% damage increase on the paper doll, if this is just a visual bug or not I'm not sure of. But i'm laying towards its additive.

Still doing some calculations with warrior BS instead of a third BM hunter in group. The main thing most people has missed here is it doesn't help you at all only your pet, even if its 40 dps for your pet and FI is only half that it still comes out on top since 3% of quite ordinary BM hunters 1k dps is 30 dps. The real concern is really if another FI helps a enhancement shaman and feral druid more than 305 AP (or 381 if he got improved).
And well, yea another BM hunter in the raid instead of a dps warrior is of course generally alot more raid dps too.
#1842SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Avellyr
How do you get an idea of the typical armor values of mobs you're fighting? My guild is just starting Mag and still tooling around in Kara/Gruuls. I could easily bank some epics and socket my Beast Lord Helm and throw on that, gloves, shoulders, and legs for the four piece bonus (while keeping Ebon Netherscale like you said ^.^), but I've never had a way to determine how good the 600 armor penetration is. As BM using the standard auto/steady/kc, I would imagine that the set bonus would almost always be active, so its just a matter of knowing armor values to test/compare.
http://files.wowace.com/MobMitigatio...38050.1212.zip
+
Formulas: Damage reduction - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

= Win!

A lot of raid mobs have around 30% mitigation, or 4500 armor, so that's the value I use in my spreadsheet. Individual mobs like Reliquary of Souls, Shade of Aran, and Rage Winterchill are outliers, but if it's not a cloth-wearing mob it should be somewhere around 30%.
#1843SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ellurion
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I have logs for most of them. Which one are you interested in?
Any, where you are "in place 6-7 with 1100-1300dps".

I'll be glad to see your best dps log if possible.

Thanks
#1844SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Heie
Do armor reduction affects, such as gronnstalker gloves affect your pets attacks as well?
#1845SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Ellurion View Post
Any, where you are "in place 6-7 with 1100-1300dps".

I'll be glad to see your best dps log if possible.

Thanks
Here's one fitting the request

Wow Web Stats
#1846SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
your dps is nice, and your placement is seventh, but the fight in question is clearly not one where it is a "dps race" or single target. The first and second place dpsers have around 28-29% of there total damage (atleast) in the form of aoe damage, which a hunter clearly cant replicate.

Not altogether sure what the original point of your argument was (as in why u are linking WWS's with u at 1200dps but 7th on the meter) but on the flip side, even a retarded hunter cant fail but to excell on a fight like leotheras where theres no aoe, no mana problems (even without Spriest pots or shamans) and your able to gain valuable dps time then FD.

edit: Also i notice you did more damage from steady's than autoshot, which seems a little strange but yeah.
#1847SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kash
Originally Posted by Heie View Post
Do armor reduction affects, such as gronnstalker gloves affect your pets attacks as well?
Good Question. I was thinking about it, too. But I don't think it does.
#1848SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fugazor
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
Generally the one spriest goes into the mage/lock group
Warlocks don't need SP. Put BM hunters in that spot instead, hunters will be happy with unlimited mana, casters in party will be happy with +3% dmg per BM hunter. That will be optimal with good BM hunters. BM hunters in that group due to SP should top damage, if not then they need to work harder and are not worth SP Of course fight cannot be anti-melee.
#1849SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Smd
Seeing as how there have been so many posts about hunter grouping recently, I'm curious as to the benefit of sticking hunters into a "traditional caster" DPS group so that they can give them FI, get a shadow priest, and get Wrath of Air totem for their scorpid.

I'm also somewhat curious as to the effect of tossing Power Infusion onto a scorpid at the beginning of a fight to start a big stack. I usually see ticks of around 800 with a shaman in my group, so I assume PI would a roughly 100 raid DPS boost, and given that it would only need to be used on the pet once, at the beginning of the fight (probably earlier than it could safely be used on a caster), would it be better to give it to that pet over a regular caster?
#1850SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Breakerone
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
your dps is nice, and your placement is seventh, but the fight in question is clearly not one where it is a "dps race" or single target. The first and second place dpsers have around 28-29% of there total damage (atleast) in the form of aoe damage, which a hunter clearly cant replicate.

Not altogether sure what the original point of your argument was (as in why u are linking WWS's with u at 1200dps but 7th on the meter) but on the flip side, even a retarded hunter cant fail but to excell on a fight like leotheras where theres no aoe, no mana problems (even without Spriest pots or shamans) and your able to gain valuable dps time then FD.

edit: Also i notice you did more damage from steady's than autoshot, which seems a little strange but yeah.
I know that the casters are above me because of aoe. That was not the point. In my original post I said that I feel my dps is slacking and not close to what I should be able to reach according to calculations, because I could already reach over 1000dps on high armor bosses back in karazhan before there was kill kommand, 440 AP HM, 250 AP EW and additional pally buffs and I had somewhat worse gear. So I was on the lookout for a list of base armor of the bosses to be able to know exactly how much I should be able to reach on a specific boss.
But obviously none exists and I'll have to use the mobmitigation addon.

As for your comment about Leotheras, I dont see how that is an advantageous fight for a hunter, as I have my pet not in action 20-40% of the fight, misdirection duties and range problems, while casters just nuke away. In fact I dont see a single fight in SSC where you have the chance to be on top against good casters except maybe Karathress.

Same thing for TK except Void and complete Hyjal.

Which is not a complaint, its just based on the design of the bosses.

Last edited by Breakerone : 07/29/07 at 10:23 AM.
#1851SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Malthes
I don't know how useful this'll be, but maybe this'll add some context to the conversation. Using the formulas on wowwiki, we can assume a level 73 bosses that is hard-capped in armor. That is, they can have no more than 75% damage reduction, or 31672.5 armor (which is a heck of a lot).

Simple algebra, how I miss thee.

x = .75x + .75(10557.5)

.25x = 7918.125

x = 31672.5


How much damage would Beast Lord's add, then? This would be the absolute minimum that it could add, due to the way damage reduction works (Diminishing returns, and all that).


31672.5 - 600 = 31072.5

y = 31072.5 / (31072.5 + 10557.5)

y = .746

So, Beast Armor, assuming the hard cap, reduces the boss's damage reduction by .4%. It doesn't sound like a lot, but damage reduction is funny that way.

Let's say you have an attack that does 1000 physical damage. On our boss mob, it would do 250 damage. With the armor reduction bonus from beast lord set comes an obvious downgrade. You're sacrificing purples for this ability, and so your tooltip damage will go down. But, it balances out. If, by switching to the Beast Armor set, that same attack does > 984 damage, it's worth switching to the Beast Armor set based on that attack.

That's a 16 damage difference in gear on that attack. That seems like a lot, to me, especially for the minimum, and especially since no bosses are anywhere close to the damage reduction cap, AFAIK.

[Edit: I misread wikipedia, and had wrong numbers]

Last edited by Malthes : 07/29/07 at 12:48 PM.
#1852SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fekta
Originally Posted by Malthes View Post
I don't know how useful this'll be, but maybe this'll add some context to the conversation. Using the formulas on wowwiki, we can assume a level 73 bosses that is hard-capped in armor. That is, they can have no more than 75% damage reduction, or 31672.5 armor (which is a heck of a lot).

Simple algebra, how I miss thee.

x = .75x + .75(10557.5)

.25x = 7918.125

x = 31672.5


How much damage would Beast Lord's add, then? This would be the absolute minimum that it could add, due to the way damage reduction works (Diminishing returns, and all that).


31672.5 - 600 = 31072.5

y = 31072.5 / (31072.5 + 10557.5)

y = .746

So, Beast Armor, assuming the hard cap, reduces the boss's damage reduction by .4%. It doesn't sound like a lot, but damage reduction is funny that way.

Let's say you have an attack that does 1000 physical damage. On our boss mob, it would do 250 damage. With the armor reduction bonus from beast lord set comes an obvious downgrade. You're sacrificing purples for this ability, and so your tooltip damage will go down. But, it balances out. If, by switching to the Beast Armor set, that same attack does > 984 damage, it's worth switching to the Beast Armor set based on that attack.

That's a 16 damage difference in gear on that attack. That seems like a lot, to me, especially for the minimum, and especially since no bosses are anywhere close to the damage reduction cap, AFAIK.

[Edit: I misread wikipedia, and had wrong numbers]
What you are not accounting for is if a mob is sundered and or under the effects of FF. You will yield a larger %'age of damage increase per point of the 600 AC reduction on a "AC capped" mob that is fully sundered or under the effects of any other AC reducing talent or equip bonus.
#1853SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Malthes
Originally Posted by Fekta View Post
What you are not accounting for is if a mob is sundered and or under the effects of FF. You will yield a larger %'age of damage increase per point of the 600 AC reduction on a "AC capped" mob that is fully sundered or under the effects of any other AC reducing talent or equip bonus.
I think that just emphasizes my point, which is that the Beast Lord's 4 set bonus is quite good indeed.

Let's assume the maximum benefit: we've got a mob with only 600 armor. He normally gets 5.4% damage reduction. Your 1000 point physical attack only does 946 damage. This gets wiped out completely with the Beast Lord's bonus. With the downgrade from switching to Beast Lord's, that same attack only needs to do > 946 damage to be worth the switch.

To lend a air of praticality: Let's say you fire an autoshot with your normal gear against a target with zero armor, and you do 1000 damage. Then you switch to Beast Lord's 4-piece set, and fire an auto shot.

If the auto shot does more than 984 damage, <I>it is always worth using Beast Lord's</I>.

If your auto shot does less than 946 damage, <your gear is much better than Beast Lord's, and so not worth switching</I>.

If it's somewhere in between, results may vary.
#1854SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Locos
Originally Posted by Avellyr View Post
http://files.wowace.com/MobMitigatio...38050.1212.zip
+
Formulas: Damage reduction - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

= Win!

A lot of raid mobs have around 30% mitigation, or 4500 armor, so that's the value I use in my spreadsheet. Individual mobs like Reliquary of Souls, Shade of Aran, and Rage Winterchill are outliers, but if it's not a cloth-wearing mob it should be somewhere around 30%.
I also tend to see around 30% mitigation, and when I adjust the armor to 4500-6000 in Cheeky's spreadsheet I get pretty close to my actual dps numbers (according to WWS).
#1855SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Looking at cheekys spread sheet, do weight stones affect ranged damage? Just wondering why my dps increases when i put on one of the stones he lists.
#1856SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
Looking at cheekys spread sheet, do weight stones affect ranged damage? Just wondering why my dps increases when i put on one of the stones he lists.
[Adamantite Sharpening Stone] does increase your crit rate for ranged (until patch 2.2). I model it as such. Once patch 2.2 goes live I will remove the weapon buff entirely, since it makes no difference for Hunters any longer.

Also, these kinds of questions are better off in the Spreadsheet thread.
#1857SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shaile
My gut feeling tells me increasing the pets AP by 300 odd something doesn't beat out a third BM hunter increasing both you AND your pets dps by 3%.

My preferred group setup i'm going for in raids is 3x BM hunters, 1x enhancement shaman with imp str and agi totems and 10% ap increase and a feral druid.

I dont really see any combination that beats out that but feel free to try to convince me otherwise.

Thats not just me as hunter trying to improve us BM's the most, i firmly believe there is no other group setup that compliment each other as 3xBM, feral and enhancement shaman since we ALL improve each other, where in conventional dps groups rouges or mages just leech.

Personally I'd put the surv hunter in the tank group. (or any group with shaman who can put down agi totem, except ours).

If your raid swing that way, you might have a paladin judging wisdom too so you don't have to spam fel mana pots which i don't really mind anyway.

I can see some aggro issues with the enhancement shaman with all those buffs he would get, maybe use tranq air totem in the start of the fight would elevate that problem?

Last edited by Shaile : 08/01/07 at 9:59 PM.
#1858SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
The DPS benefit of Battleshout on a pet was discussed a couple of posts after the one you quoted.
For your party's DPS, you'll most likely be better of with the third BM Hunter instead of a Battleshout Warrior.

The post I responded to implied (in my eyes, at least) that a Hunter's DPS output was unaffected by Battleshout, hence my response (i.e. Hunter DPS output is increased due to Hunter pet dealing more damage). I did not claim one to be better than the other, I was simply stating a fact that's easily overlooked / forgotten.
#1859SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Steelshine
Finally happened?

Just wanted to discuss a finding I had today on Gruul. On all the trash today, all of our hunters were able to stack their own stack of scorpid poison.

We engage Gruul, and something strange happened. Only the hunter who first applied scorpid poison was being given pet damage, every other scorpid(3 hunters with scorpid) was simply refreshing the initial ones stack. We tested it further, and purposely made sure I was the first one to apply poison. After achieving a 3 stack, they all activated poison and bumped my stack up to 5, and then for the rest of the fight only 1 stack was ever active, with the first on applied being the only one refreshed by all three scorpids.

Anyone else experience something similar?

Note, two of us used rank 4, and one used rank 5, but the rank 5 still only refreshed the rank 4.
#1860SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
The DPS benefit of Battleshout on a pet was discussed a couple of posts after the one you quoted.
For your party's DPS, you'll most likely be better of with the third BM Hunter instead of a Battleshout Warrior.
I dont remember that to have been the outcome of the discussion. As I was only able to speak for a hunter I could say that a hunter will get more total dps from a Battleshout then from another BM.
But in the Survival thread Sapa (I believe) made a list of answers from other classes on how much dps they gain from an EW which gives only 250 AP. The answers where all around 50-60 dps, so as long as the other physical dps guys in the group dont do 2000+ dps, I'd still say a Battleshout is clearly the better group buff.
#1861SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Hidden
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
My gut feeling tells me increasing the pets AP by 300 odd something doesn't beat out a third BM hunter increasing both you AND your pets dps by 3%.

My preferred group setup i'm going for in raids is 3x BM hunters, 1x enhancement shaman with imp str and agi totems and 10% ap increase and a feral druid.

I dont really see any combination that beats out that but feel free to try to convince me otherwise.

Thats not just me as hunter trying to improve us BM's the most, i firmly believe there is no other group setup that compliment each other as 3xBM, feral and enhancement shaman since we ALL improve each other, where in conventional dps groups rouges or mages just leech.

Personally I'd put the surv hunter in the tank group. (or any group with shaman who can put down agi totem, except ours).

If your raid swing that way, you might have a paladin judging wisdom too so you don't have to spam fel mana pots which i don't really mind anyway.

I can see some aggro issues with the enhancement shaman with all those buffs he would get, maybe use tranq air totem in the start of the fight would elevate that problem?
You're pretty greedy, aren't you?
An Enhancement Shaman will be better in a melee group any day of the week and I suppose you're not going to bring a shaman for every group to your raids.
#1862SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3okla
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
I dont remember that to have been the outcome of the discussion. As I was only able to speak for a hunter I could say that a hunter will get more total dps from a Battleshout then from another BM.
But in the Survival thread Sapa (I believe) made a list of answers from other classes on how much dps they gain from an EW which gives only 250 AP. The answers where all around 50-60 dps, so as long as the other physical dps guys in the group dont do 2000+ dps, I'd still say a Battleshout is clearly the better group buff.
especially imp(talent) imp(trinket) bs.
#1863SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3sovelis41
Originally Posted by Hidden View Post
You're pretty greedy, aren't you?
An Enhancement Shaman will be better in a melee group any day of the week and I suppose you're not going to bring a shaman for every group to your raids.
I remember a magtheridon raid where, for some reason, we had 2 feral druids and 3 shadow priests (odd for our usual raid makeup). Our group was 3 BM Hunters, shadow priest, and druid. That was a fun time. I think we (the hunters), were all 1-2-3. Sadly that was before I started logging for WWS.
#1864SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ezzy
I haven't had the time to do a spreadsheet yet and i'm at a total loss as to what is my next weapon upgrade. I'm still using Steelhawk from Attumen...
My luck isn't the best it seems as Doomwalker, Prince,Al'ar or Vashj haven't dropped their weapons. Is this the BM order of weapon superiority? I have Dragonspine Trophy which i believe leads me to favor a slower weapon?

I have no problems regarding dps, but i'm getting very frustrated about the weapon issue and the possible entry to Hyjal and BT since we're at Kael atm. I want to choose the right one, one that has the best "bang for the buck".

The Arena is something that i'm really not looking forward to doing, but i guess i have to if no new weapons are made available to me and everyone will go past me in dps
#1865SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Gorah
Originally Posted by Hidden View Post
You're pretty greedy, aren't you?
An Enhancement Shaman will be better in a melee group any day of the week and I suppose you're not going to bring a shaman for every group to your raids.
Its talking about his perfect group setup *shrug* You could tell same to rogue, who sets group to get 4 other people who boost him. Same level of greed there, really
#1866SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chuu
Hello all, I have a quick question about scorpids.

The BM hunter in our guild who got the scorpid recently quit, and I have some questions about how to best control the pet.

1. On fights where you can feed the scorpid focus (Mag, Gruul, High Warlord) how many abilities can you have on instant cast and keep the stack up? Do you still need to use rank 4 poison?

2. On fights where you can't feed the scorpid focus (vashj phase 3 first that comes to mind) is it even worth trying to keep a stack up? Will scorpid poision rank 4 without any other auto cast abilities be sufficient?
#1867SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Have a question for you BM hunters experts. Has anyone ever modeled the DPS of a 1:1.5 rotation with a BM spec as compared to a 1:1 priority rotation (which I believe is the standing assumption of top BM dps rotation, right?)? I realize this means clipping auto-shots, but I am not completely convinced that clipped auto-shots would guarantee the lowest DPS.
#1868SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Hidden View Post
You're pretty greedy, aren't you?
An Enhancement Shaman will be better in a melee group any day of the week and I suppose you're not going to bring a shaman for every group to your raids.
So im the one who's greedy when i at least give something back? What do you give over the first warrior? or what does rogues give back?
Sure, i'm not arguing that a shaman giving WF totem to 3x fury 2handed warriors would gain A LOT more benefit than 3x hunters from said shaman, but thats not the issue here.

The issue is 3xBM hunters would give a lot more back to the enhancement shaman in terms of personal dps, who wouldn't have to sacrifice personal dps to give out WF totem. The synergy is a great deal bigger than with 3x DPS warriors or 3x rogues.
Not even going to mentioning what class brings most raid dps since both you and me know who it is already.
#1869SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
The DPS benefit of Battleshout on a pet was discussed a couple of posts after the one you quoted.
For your party's DPS, you'll most likely be better of with the third BM Hunter instead of a Battleshout Warrior.

The post I responded to implied (in my eyes, at least) that a Hunter's DPS output was unaffected by Battleshout, hence my response (i.e. Hunter DPS output is increased due to Hunter pet dealing more damage). I did not claim one to be better than the other, I was simply stating a fact that's easily overlooked / forgotten.
Aye, missed that in the first read up. Sorry.
#1870SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Ezzy View Post
I haven't had the time to do a spreadsheet yet and i'm at a total loss as to what is my next weapon upgrade. I'm still using Steelhawk from Attumen...
My luck isn't the best it seems as Doomwalker, Prince,Al'ar or Vashj haven't dropped their weapons. Is this the BM order of weapon superiority? I have Dragonspine Trophy which i believe leads me to favor a slower weapon?

I have no problems regarding dps, but i'm getting very frustrated about the weapon issue and the possible entry to Hyjal and BT since we're at Kael atm. I want to choose the right one, one that has the best "bang for the buck".

The Arena is something that i'm really not looking forward to doing, but i guess i have to if no new weapons are made available to me and everyone will go past me in dps
Actually the arena weapons are quite good for a imp hawk BM hunter.
The merciless slightly worse when under the imp aoth proc than gladiators.

3.0/1.15(quiver)/1.20(serpent's swiftness)/1.15(quick shots)= 1.89 meaning clipping autos.

3.1/1.15(quiver)/1.20(serpent's swiftness)/1.15(quick shots)= 1.95 also clipping but less impact.

Without imp hawk which some seem to prefer nowadays you get 2.17 with merciless (or Vashj, Archimonde or illidians bows) and 2.24 with gladiator.

If you can get a hold of around 8% permanent haste from items merciless becomes 2.01, and for gladiators you need around 12% haste to get around 2.01. Clearly not deep within BT/MH its a lot easier to reach the preferred speed with merciless which attack speed benefits BM hunters surprisingly well. This is of course implying you aren't using a macro for your rotation but time it yourself. If you use one of those mind numbing macros you have to account for your ping too which if you time your shots you don't.

You can also see why haste suck so bad for hunters ( considering gear upgrades, weapon upgrades, rotations not pure bang for the buck) everything gets affected by what current weapon you have and what gear and finding upgrades to the +haste gear you have is going to be a pain which might leave you with subpar gear just for the +haste stat. Finding a new weapon with a different speed also means you have to redo all calculations and switch out +haste gear to reach optimal attack speed.

Honestly you want as little random haste increases as possible as it only makes you clip when having a optimal attack speed, and having an non optimal attack speed just so you can use the +haste buffs/trinkets/pots only means you are loosing dps in the first place when not under the haste effects.
btw, the only haste effect that doesn't "suck" is Bloodlust which is the only haste effect that decreases the GCD too.

[Steelhawk Crossbow] is a very competent weapon without improved aoth. Where with the talent you want as slow as possible which makes [Gladiator's Heavy Crossbow] very good if you feel like saving up 3261 arena points.

If you have +haste gear in reach [Merciless Gladiator's Crossbow of the Phoenix] makes for a very good choice if your guilds droprate on Vashj bow is very erratic .
#1871SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
3.0/1.15(quiver)/1.20(serpent's swiftness)/1.15(quick shots)= 1.89 meaning clipping autos.

3.1/1.15(quiver)/1.20(serpent's swiftness)/1.15(quick shots)= 1.95 also clipping but less impact.

This is not correct. You do not always clip at those speeds unless you have a bad connection. With quiver, quick shots and serpents swiftness you get a .94 steady shot, + .5 primer = 1.44 delay. Even with lag, you would need .46 seconds of lag in order to clip with the 3.0 bow.
#1872SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
Long time reader, first time poster... I have been BM for the last few months and have found the information in this site exceedingly valuable in establishing optimized haste-states to operate in...

Objective: Find the best theoretical weapon speed that can deliver maximum damage output under Rapid Fire or Trinket/Proc hasted states (51% or 54% Haste States)

Assumptions:
0.5 second lag/auto shot animation
0.1 second human interface lag

Standard Haste Factors:
Quiver (Standard) - 15%
Serpent Swiftness (Standard) - 20%

Proc Haste Factors:
Improved Aspect of the Hawk (Proc) - 15%
Skyfire Swiftness Meta Gem (Proc) - approx. 15% - I am uncertain of its actual haste speed.
(Dragonspine Trophy - 20% - not used in this calculation - I don't have it, yet)

Use Haste Factors:
Rapid Shot (User) - 40%
Abacus of Violent Odds (User) - approx. 15% - I used 15.77 as the haste factor for this calculation, although I have seen others using 10.77...

For the purposes of this study only two haste states will be considered: Standard under Rapid Fire and Standard under Abacus with single Proc Based Factor

Haste = 1 / (1+x) / (1+y) / (1+z)...

Standard under Rapid Fire:
Haste = 1 / (1.15) / (1.20) / (1.40) = 0.51

Standard under Abacus with single Proc Based Factor
Haste = 1 / (1.15) / (1.20) / (1.15) / (1.15) = 0.54

Maximum Theoretical all Proc'd up and Used State
Haste = 1 / (1.15) / (1.20) / (1.40) / (1.15) / (1.15) / (1.15) = 0.34 (just for fun - this will happen very infrequently - I am sure someone with the patience to do so can calculate the probability that this alignment of procs can occur)

Under these conditions - the objective is to find a weapon speed that allows for maximum yield from a steady/autoshot rotation:

1) Find the theoretically earliest cycle time required to weave in a Steady Shot under targeted Haste States
1a) For Rapid Fire Haste State (51%)
Time - Action
0.0 - Auto Shot
0.1 - Steady Shot Cast
0.88 - Steady Shot Fire (1.5s x 0.51 = 0.78s)
1.38 - Auto Shot Animation
Repeat

1b) For Abacus + Proc Haste State (54%)
0.0 - Auto Shot
0.1 - Steady Shot Cast
0.92 - Steady Shot Fire (1.5s x 0.54 = 0.82s)
1.42 - Auto Shot Animation
Repeat

1c) For Maxium Theoretical all Proc'd up and Used State (34%)
0.0 - Auto Shot
0.1 - Steady Shot Cast
0.61 - Steady Shot Cast (1.5s x 0.34 = 0.6s)
1.11 - Auto Shot Animation
Repeat

2) Find Weapon Speeds that provide for minimal time loss during these hasted states
2a) For Rapid Fire Haste State (51%)
Steady Cycle Time 1.38s (from step (1a) above)
Weapon Speed - Auto Cycle Time
2.4 - 1.24
2.5 - 1.29
2.6 - 1.35
2.7 - 1.40 - winner!
2.8 - 1.45
2.9 - 1.50
3.0 - 1.55

2b) For Abacus + Proc Haste State (54%)
Steady Cycle Time 1.42s (from step (1b) above)
Weapon Speed - Auto Cycle Time
2.4 - 1.31
2.5 - 1.37
2.6 - 1.42 - winner!
2.7 - 1.48
2.8 - 1.53
2.9 - 1.59
3.0 - 1.64

2c) For Maxium Theoretical all Proc'd up and Used State (34%)
Steady Cycle Time 1.11s (from step (1b) above)
Weapon Speed - Auto Cycle Time
2.4 - 0.82
2.5 - 0.85
2.6 - 0.88
2.7 - 0.92
2.8 - 0.95
2.9 - 0.98
3.0 - 1.02
3.1 - 1.05
3.2 - 1.09
3.3 - 1.12 - winner?

Basically under max haste you are going to clip auto shot cycles - so don't take this too seriously, for the 99.99% of the time you aren't in this haste state you are going to suffer from wait times between steady and auto shot cycles, so it really is not a good idea to tune to this state.

Step 3)
Conclusion:
Under good lag conditions a 2.7s weapon would provide the best solution for tuning for the steady/ auto shot rotation.

For a Dwarf: Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle fits the bill.

Suggestions and corrections are most welcome.
#1873SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
3.0/1.15(quiver)/1.20(serpent's swiftness)/1.15(quick shots)= 1.89 meaning clipping autos.

3.1/1.15(quiver)/1.20(serpent's swiftness)/1.15(quick shots)= 1.95 also clipping but less impact.

This is not correct. You do not always clip at those speeds unless you have a bad connection. With quiver, quick shots and serpents swiftness you get a .94 steady shot, + .5 primer = 1.44 delay. Even with lag, you would need .46 seconds of lag in order to clip with the 3.0 bow.
Mmm, true i was more thinking about the GCD which is still 1.5 sec. But ofc auto shots can go off during GCD anyhow.
#1874SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
Long time reader, first time poster... I have been BM for the last few months and have found the information in this site exceedingly valuable in establishing optimized haste-states to operate in...

Objective: Find the best theoretical weapon speed that can deliver maximum damage output under Rapid Fire or Trinket/Proc hasted states (51% or 54% Haste States)

Assumptions:
0.5 second lag/auto shot animation
0.1 second human interface lag

Standard Haste Factors:
Quiver (Standard) - 15%
Serpent Swiftness (Standard) - 20%

Proc Haste Factors:
Improved Aspect of the Hawk (Proc) - 15%
Skyfire Swiftness Meta Gem (Proc) - approx. 15% - I am uncertain of its actual haste speed.
(Dragonspine Trophy - 20% - not used in this calculation - I don't have it, yet)

Use Haste Factors:
Rapid Shot (User) - 40%
Abacus of Violent Odds (User) - approx. 15% - I used 15.77 as the haste factor for this calculation, although I have seen others using 10.77...

For the purposes of this study only two haste states will be considered: Standard under Rapid Fire and Standard under Abacus with single Proc Based Factor

Haste = 1 / (1+x) / (1+y) / (1+z)...

Standard under Rapid Fire:
Haste = 1 / (1.15) / (1.20) / (1.40) = 0.51

Standard under Abacus with single Proc Based Factor
Haste = 1 / (1.15) / (1.20) / (1.15) / (1.15) = 0.54

Maximum Theoretical all Proc'd up and Used State
Haste = 1 / (1.15) / (1.20) / (1.40) / (1.15) / (1.15) / (1.15) = 0.34 (just for fun - this will happen very infrequently - I am sure someone with the patience to do so can calculate the probability that this alignment of procs can occur)

Under these conditions - the objective is to find a weapon speed that allows for maximum yield from a steady/autoshot rotation:

1) Find the theoretically earliest cycle time required to weave in a Steady Shot under targeted Haste States
1a) For Rapid Fire Haste State (51%)
Time - Action
0.0 - Auto Shot
0.1 - Steady Shot Cast
0.88 - Steady Shot Fire (1.5s x 0.51 = 0.78s)
1.38 - Auto Shot Animation
Repeat

1b) For Abacus + Proc Haste State (54%)
0.0 - Auto Shot
0.1 - Steady Shot Cast
0.92 - Steady Shot Fire (1.5s x 0.54 = 0.82s)
1.42 - Auto Shot Animation
Repeat

1c) For Maxium Theoretical all Proc'd up and Used State (34%)
0.0 - Auto Shot
0.1 - Steady Shot Cast
0.61 - Steady Shot Cast (1.5s x 0.34 = 0.6s)
1.11 - Auto Shot Animation
Repeat

2) Find Weapon Speeds that provide for minimal time loss during these hasted states
2a) For Rapid Fire Haste State (51%)
Steady Cycle Time 1.38s (from step (1a) above)
Weapon Speed - Auto Cycle Time
2.4 - 1.24
2.5 - 1.29
2.6 - 1.35
2.7 - 1.40 - winner!
2.8 - 1.45
2.9 - 1.50
3.0 - 1.55

2b) For Abacus + Proc Haste State (54%)
Steady Cycle Time 1.42s (from step (1b) above)
Weapon Speed - Auto Cycle Time
2.4 - 1.31
2.5 - 1.37
2.6 - 1.42 - winner!
2.7 - 1.48
2.8 - 1.53
2.9 - 1.59
3.0 - 1.64

2c) For Maxium Theoretical all Proc'd up and Used State (34%)
Steady Cycle Time 1.11s (from step (1b) above)
Weapon Speed - Auto Cycle Time
2.4 - 0.82
2.5 - 0.85
2.6 - 0.88
2.7 - 0.92
2.8 - 0.95
2.9 - 0.98
3.0 - 1.02
3.1 - 1.05
3.2 - 1.09
3.3 - 1.12 - winner?

Basically under max haste you are going to clip auto shot cycles - so don't take this too seriously, for the 99.99% of the time you aren't in this haste state you are going to suffer from wait times between steady and auto shot cycles, so it really is not a good idea to tune to this state.

Step 3)
Conclusion:
Under good lag conditions a 2.7s weapon would provide the best solution for tuning for the steady/ auto shot rotation.

For a Dwarf: Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle fits the bill.

Suggestions and corrections are most welcome.
You are forgetting about GCD, even though you have 0.78s steady shots, you still have to wait 1.5 sec always before you can shoot another steady shot. so the preferably attack speed is a steady shot+autoshot=1.5 sec. Or a enough haste to get 1.0 steady shots. Rushing to work right now so i don't have time to calculate what kind of haste and attack speed on weapon that would be.
#1875SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
I am under the impression that the global cooldown does not apply to spells with cast times and is reset at the moment the cast is complete.

Instant casts are capped by a 1.5s GCD before they can be cast.

Steady Shots require only the Auto Shot warm up of 0.5s - so tuning your hasted weapon speed to the point where there is no delay between the Steady Shot Cast Time + human error + auto shot warm up and the Auto Shot Cycle time is the solution.
#1876SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Dharok
The 2 piece T5 bonus is finally updated on the PTR. Its a 100% chance to heal your pet for 15% of your damage. Seems like it works on everything but autoshot(including regular melee attacks)
#1877SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
Mathematically like this:
1)
Auto Shot Cycle Time = Base Weapon Speed * Haste State

2)
Steady Cycle Time = 1.5s * Haste State + 0.5s + human interface lag

where I assume a human interface lag of 0.1s

equating 1 and 2

Base Weapon Speed * Haste State = 1.5s * Haste State + 0.6s

Base Weapon Speed = 1.5s + 0.6s/Haste State

Using Quiver, Serpent Swiftness and Rapid Fire: Haste State = 1 / (1.15) / (1.20) / (1.40) = 0.518

The Base Weapons Speed = 1.5s + 0.6s / 0.518 = 2.66s

Round up to 2.7s for fun...
#1878SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
I am under the impression that the global cooldown does not apply to spells with cast times and is reset at the moment the cast is complete.
This is incorrect.
Global cooldown starts at same time as cast starts, and lasts for 1.5 seconds. Global cooldown is affected by Bloodlust / Heroism, but no other hastes.
15% quiver, 20% Serpent's Swiftness, 40% Rapid Fire -- it's easy to get the "Spell is not ready" message to appear when spamming Steady Shot only.
With low latency, it's easy to get it only with 15% quiver.
#1879SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Dharok View Post
The 2 piece T5 bonus is finally updated on the PTR. Its a 100% chance to heal your pet for 15% of your damage. Seems like it works on everything but autoshot(including regular melee attacks)

This equates to about 66hps for me, based off my likely steady shot dps, which isn't bad.
#1880SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
This equates to about 66hps for me, based off my likely steady shot dps, which isn't bad.
That sounds a little bit too high, but checking some WWS logs I agree that its close to twice as good as before, at least for a BM. Actually even better then that, considering that now its a constant heal instead of some uncertain proc.
#1881SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
This is incorrect.
Global cooldown starts at same time as cast starts, and lasts for 1.5 seconds. Global cooldown is affected by Bloodlust / Heroism, but no other hastes.
15% quiver, 20% Serpent's Swiftness, 40% Rapid Fire -- it's easy to get the "Spell is not ready" message to appear when spamming Steady Shot only.
With low latency, it's easy to get it only with 15% quiver.
Steady Shot - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki - claims the cooldown ends at the end of casting like all spells with a 0.5 to 1.5s cast time. -

Copied from wowwiki.

Global Cooldown is refreshed when the spell ends, for spells with a casting time less than 1.5 seconds, and greater than 0.5 seconds. Thus it is possible to chain Steady Shots with a modified casting time of 1.0 seconds.
#1882SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Lactose
Then it would not be possible to get the 'spell not ready' message with only a 15% haste (1.30 casting time). It is.

EDIT: WoWWiki is generally not the most reliable place to gather data. I like the way they credit the formula to vgboards.ign, when I posted that stuff in beta. I also like the way they don't know how hastes work (Steady Shot cast time = 1.5 * 0.85 (quiver) etc, and that the erroneous information is still there, despite an edit with the correct information, that a lot of the tips don't make sense, etc.

Observant readers might notice my dislike for WoWWiki.

Last edited by Lactose : 08/02/07 at 7:20 AM.
#1883SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Breakerone View Post
That sounds a little bit too high, but checking some WWS logs I agree that its close to twice as good as before, at least for a BM. Actually even better then that, considering that now its a constant heal instead of some uncertain proc.
I just took it from last nights WWS on Gruul:
Steady Shot - 657 average hit, 1374 average crit
Crit % - 26

657*0.74 + 1374*0.26 = 843 average steady shot damage

I fire 1 steady/auto and my auto hasted speed is just under 1.9(Barrel Blade Longrifle)

so 843/1.9 = 444dps from steady

444*0.15 = 66.6 hps

Thats with only an elixir and on a highly armoured mob, there are situations where that number can get significantly higher.
#1884SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ozbert
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
(8 + 190x) * 1.25 * 1.2 * 1.05 * .94 = 51
Where does the 1.05 multiplier in the pet damage formula come from? I realise the other multipliers are the pet happiness bonus, unleased fury bonus, and pet type modifier.

Last edited by Ozbert : 08/02/07 at 7:47 AM.
#1885SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Ozbert View Post
Where does the 1.05 multiplier in the pet damage formula come from? I realise the other multipliers are the pet happiness bonus, unleased fury bonus, and pet type modifier.
Orc racial I guess.
#1886SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
I just took it from last nights WWS on Gruul:
Steady Shot - 657 average hit, 1374 average crit
Crit % - 26

657*0.74 + 1374*0.26 = 843 average steady shot damage

I fire 1 steady/auto and my auto hasted speed is just under 1.9(Barrel Blade Longrifle)

so 843/1.9 = 444dps from steady

444*0.15 = 66.6 hps

Thats with only an elixir and on a highly armoured mob, there are situations where that number can get significantly higher.
Your right, on paper thats true. Ingame you'll never fully reach it, but nontheless its another noticable advantage of haste. Faster Steady = more petheal
#1887SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Noah
Originally Posted by Dharok View Post
The 2 piece T5 bonus is finally updated on the PTR. Its a 100% chance to heal your pet for 15% of your damage. Seems like it works on everything but autoshot(including regular melee attacks)
This is good news except the auto shot part, I guess that's a bug which (I hope) won't make it live.
#1888SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ezzy
Originally Posted by Noah View Post
This is good news except the auto shot part, I guess that's a bug which (I hope) won't make it live.
Sounds like another "autoshot isn't a damaging shot" theory by blizzard.
#1889SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
Forgive me if I stand in disbelief, but why would Blizzard bother making the cast time of Steady Shot scale with Haste items if it did not reduce the cooldown between shots?
#1890SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Smd
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
Forgive me if I stand in disbelief, but why would Blizzard bother making the cast time of Steady Shot scale with Haste items if it did not reduce the cooldown between shots?
It's a major bone of contention with most hunters as it can cause haste effects to either have no effect or actually lower your DPS
#1891SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Breakerone
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
Forgive me if I stand in disbelief, but why would Blizzard bother making the cast time of Steady Shot scale with Haste items if it did not reduce the cooldown between shots?
To make room for the 0,5 sec cast time of autoshot which is independent of the GCD, but directly depending on the casttime of steady shot.
#1892SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Sure, i'm not arguing that a shaman giving WF totem to 3x fury 2handed warriors would gain A LOT more benefit than 3x hunters from said shaman, but thats not the issue here.

The issue is 3xBM hunters would give a lot more back to the enhancement shaman in terms of personal dps, who wouldn't have to sacrifice personal dps to give out WF totem.
The reason this excercise is a little silly is because it is so dependent on raid makeup and who the best players in the raid are. For example if your 2 physical dps groups are like this:

Group 1: Fury War x 2, Feral, Rogue x 2
Group 2: BM Hunter x3, Feral, Enhance Shaman

I would expect that switching the Shaman for a Warrior would increase raid dps. You lose an agility totem for the hunters, shaman buffs for pets are replaced by battle shout (a small step down) and the shaman loses FI and agi totem. On the other hand a fury warrior gains the FI, a feral gains a battle shout, and the rogues and a warrior get windfury, strength totem, and the shaman melee attack power buff. Of course there might be people in the other 3 groups who could be moved around to make this work even better.

If you want to talk about groups to maximize a single scorpid using BM hunter's output, I think enhancement shaman, elemental shaman, feral druid, MM hunter would be the best groupmates. According to Cheeky's spreadsheet I get more DPS from TSA for me and my pet than another FI.

The other night I was grouped with an elemental shaman for the first time since I got my scorpid, and my eyes almost popped out of my head when I saw the poison ticks. It was nearly 200 damage more per tick on a full stack than I usually get. Thats 100 dps from a single buff to a pet. If that isn't proof that scorpid poison is broken, I dont know what is. Am I correct in thinking that if you switch the elemental shaman out of the hunter group after the poson is applied it will stay at the higher damage?

Originally Posted by Smd View Post
It's a major bone of contention with most hunters as it can cause haste effects to either have no effect or actually lower your DPS
No it can't! The only way haste effects can lower your dps is if you change to a worse rotation in response to the haste. At worst it can have no effect using the same rotation.
#1893SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
Am I correct in thinking that if you switch the elemental shaman out of the hunter group after the poson is applied it will stay at the higher damage?
Which buff are you referring to from the elemental shaman? Certainly Wrath of Air only needs to be present on the first tick and all subsequent ticks will benefit.
#1894SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3fr0ggy
anyone have a 100% sure opinion on this ?

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Pets and blocks from bosses
#1895SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by fr0ggy View Post
Pets and blocks from bosses
My guess is he's talking about parries, which reset the swing timer. Blocks don't have any impact.
#1896SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3fr0ggy
Haven't seen it anywhere. Tried googling for it but found nothing. Have only heard it from memebers of my raid group. They claimed the MT got hit twice at the same time and a pet was blocked right then (according to the combat log). The MT died then which is why they looked for the cause of it.

thats why i ask
#1897SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
Originally Posted by fr0ggy View Post
anyone have a 100% sure opinion on this ?

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Pets and blocks from bosses

Well, you should never have your pet attacking from the front of the target.

For the main obvious reasons that your pet gains extra damage, by not having his attacks blocked or parried.

But also because it can be lethal for the tank.

When a player, or mob parries, they follow the parry with a 'counter attack' speeding up the next attack by nearly 50%.

Let us say Gruul always hits for 10k. If Gruul hits you for 10k, and if an attack gets parried by him, he will hit you again for 10k in half the time. If you don't have your pets behind the boss at all times, i hope your healers have very good reactions, especially if your pets attack fast.
#1898SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3slugfoot
Hmm, I had my suspicions about that, as snake trap on Morogrim proved fatal a few times. I would guess that the snakes caused him to go into super parry mode which then killed the tank with a string of attacks at lightning speed. Lesson learned on the snake trap front.

Seems obvious now, but its probably a good thing to keep in mind when training new hunters for raids.

Thanks for the info.
#1899SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
I sure hope the 2 set bonus doenst give healing threat after the patch.
#1900SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3mersenne
I hope I'm adding to the thread by asking this..
When considering BM theorycrafting, as the title of the thread indicates is being discussed here, many questions come to mind. However, I didn't actually find any of them answered 100% here. Anyone else with the same questions is not likely to sift through 76 pages of not completely relevant information in order to find the answers to these questions. I figured since the thread has endured at such length, that a consolidation of all the useful information that was discussed might exist, but I was disheartened to find that the first post was still simply the proposal from over 3 months ago, pre-2.1.

In short, I was hoping there could be a consolidation of the answers to these questions and any other pertinent BM-related questions that may have been answered in this thread.
-How does one maximize DPS as BM?
-How does BM's DPS compare to MM's, in all scenarios? overall?
-How does BM's utility compare to MM's, in all scenarios? overall?
-How badly does latency affect BM's DPS?
-What is best in terms of itemization for BM?
-To follow up on the above, how does stat scaling to pets affect the overall value of those stats to a BM Hunter, and how do these new values relate to those of a MM Hunter?


Here are my two cents on the issue.
I've been a Marksman for most of my career, save for a one-night clear of Kara where I was BM for kicks. That night I ran with my Hunter class leader, who was still MM at the time, and beat him in every boss fight. That said, as MM, I still consistently beat, in terms of damage, the two BM Hunters and Survival Hunter with whom I raid, having worse gear than they do. I don't know what they're doing wrong, but it should be noted that I have no trouble fitting in two specials per auto when appropriate, with minimal clipping, in contrast to some MM-related sentiments that were expressed earlier in the thread.
I like not being dependent on my pet. I don't like having a crap party buff, being vulnerable to small increases in latency, and being stuck in the melee group (we don't think well of Enhancement Shaman). Some clear answers to the above questions would help me to better understand the difference between my spec and BM, and to determine my near future as a Hunter.
#1901SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
The reason this excercise is a little silly is because it is so dependent on raid makeup and who the best players in the raid are. For example if your 2 physical dps groups are like this:

Group 1: Fury War x 2, Feral, Rogue x 2
Group 2: BM Hunter x3, Feral, Enhance Shaman

I would expect that switching the Shaman for a Warrior would increase raid dps. You lose an agility totem for the hunters, shaman buffs for pets are replaced by battle shout (a small step down) and the shaman loses FI and agi totem. On the other hand a fury warrior gains the FI, a feral gains a battle shout, and the rogues and a warrior get windfury, strength totem, and the shaman melee attack power buff. Of course there might be people in the other 3 groups who could be moved around to make this work even better.

If you want to talk about groups to maximize a single scorpid using BM hunter's output, I think enhancement shaman, elemental shaman, feral druid, MM hunter would be the best groupmates. According to Cheeky's spreadsheet I get more DPS from TSA for me and my pet than another FI.

The other night I was grouped with an elemental shaman for the first time since I got my scorpid, and my eyes almost popped out of my head when I saw the poison ticks. It was nearly 200 damage more per tick on a full stack than I usually get. Thats 100 dps from a single buff to a pet. If that isn't proof that scorpid poison is broken, I dont know what is. Am I correct in thinking that if you switch the elemental shaman out of the hunter group after the poson is applied it will stay at the higher damage?
Well of course if you bend it that way it "might" be smarter to switch out a warrior for the shaman. But thats why i said the topic was about synergy and my point still stands, a 3xBM hunter, enhancement shaman and feral druid is the best dps group synergy in terms of total raid DPS output from that group.
I cant really account for every possible raid makeup there is so no point in bringing it up really.

What im on the other hand still is interested in knowing if a warrior instead of a third BM hunter would be a dps increase, and how big, for the enhancement shaman and feral druid. Id really like to see some numbers on that but cant really browse through 30+ pages of enhancement shaman and feral druid threads to find out .
#1902SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by mersenne View Post
I hope I'm adding to the thread by asking this..
When considering BM theorycrafting, as the title of the thread indicates is being discussed here, many questions come to mind. However, I didn't actually find any of them answered 100% here. Anyone else with the same questions is not likely to sift through 76 pages of not completely relevant information in order to find the answers to these questions. I figured since the thread has endured at such length, that a consolidation of all the useful information that was discussed might exist, but I was disheartened to find that the first post was still simply the proposal from over 3 months ago, pre-2.1.

In short, I was hoping there could be a consolidation of the answers to these questions and any other pertinent BM-related questions that may have been answered in this thread.
-How does one maximize DPS as BM?
-How does BM's DPS compare to MM's, in all scenarios? overall?
-How does BM's utility compare to MM's, in all scenarios? overall?
-How badly does latency affect BM's DPS?
-What is best in terms of itemization for BM?
-To follow up on the above, how does stat scaling to pets affect the overall value of those stats to a BM Hunter, and how do these new values relate to those of a MM Hunter?


Here are my two cents on the issue.
I've been a Marksman for most of my career, save for a one-night clear of Kara where I was BM for kicks. That night I ran with my Hunter class leader, who was still MM at the time, and beat him in every boss fight. That said, as MM, I still consistently beat, in terms of damage, the two BM Hunters and Survival Hunter with whom I raid, having worse gear than they do. I don't know what they're doing wrong, but it should be noted that I have no trouble fitting in two specials per auto when appropriate, with minimal clipping, in contrast to some MM-related sentiments that were expressed earlier in the thread.
I like not being dependent on my pet. I don't like having a crap party buff, being vulnerable to small increases in latency, and being stuck in the melee group (we don't think well of Enhancement Shaman). Some clear answers to the above questions would help me to better understand the difference between my spec and BM, and to determine my near future as a Hunter.
Well for starters i can inform you that you cant fit 2 specials in between auto shots even as MM without severe clipping, it has been proven a couple of times in this thread.
And honestly, i don't find BM more dependant on pets than MMs already are. A MMs dps output will drop less than for a BM without the pet but it still is severe enough to put a MM from for example nr8-9 to bottom of a 12 dpsers raid setup.

As MM, you DONT want your pet to die, you DONT want your pets dps to be suboptimal in terms of buffs and positioning, Just as for a BM hunter. That is of course if you are the slightest interested in being a major contributor to the raid dps.
#1903SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
Forgive me if I stand in disbelief, but why would Blizzard bother making the cast time of Steady Shot scale with Haste items if it did not reduce the cooldown between shots?
Honestly, isn't the mechanics of steady shot a clear testament to blizzard being clueless about hunter mechanics?
#1904SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Relwin
Originally Posted by mersenne View Post
-How does one maximize DPS as BM?
-How does BM's DPS compare to MM's, in all scenarios? overall?
-How does BM's utility compare to MM's, in all scenarios? overall?
-How badly does latency affect BM's DPS?
-What is best in terms of itemization for BM?
-To follow up on the above, how does stat scaling to pets affect the overall value of those stats to a BM Hunter, and how do these new values relate to those of a MM Hunter?
- Same as any other class or hunter spec, an in depth knowledge of your mechanics, the mechanics of the fights you are doing, and the people you play with. Further broken down as mana management, positional awareness, not clipping autos, recognition of shot damage, knowing when to pop timers.
- In all scenarios that do not require a range greater than 35 yards you will generally beat a MM every single time. Serpent's Swiftness is really better than the whole MM tree if you want to get down to it.
- In all PvE scenarios(raids specifically) I would say BM offers utility more of the time through BW, TBW, and Intimidation than MM tricks. Not to say that I don't miss scatter or having 41 yard range or Silencing Shot or Imp Conc. PvP is what you make of it.
- Obviously dependent on weapon and amount of haste you are operating under, but no worse than it hurts a MM hunter.
- Same as every other spec, Agi.
- Pet dependent sort of. AP gives a scorpid poison a larger stack but agi gives the hunter more overall DPS and scales with Kings.(I normally swap some trinkets around to start a stack with max AP then feign and get my good stuff back on) Scaling is relatively the same though as no formulas change between specs with regards to pet scaling. (overall damage will of course, but those are results of talents)
#1905SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3mersenne
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Well for starters i can inform you that you cant fit 2 specials in between auto shots even as MM without severe clipping, it has been proven a couple of times in this thread.
Could you quote me the proof, or at least point me to the page/post? I seem to have no trouble fitting in 2 specials for 1 Auto once every 4 Autos in my rotation. This way I fire just under a shot a second, and as I understand it, I'd be doing approximately the same as BM.

@Relwin, thank you so much, but some of those answers could be a bit more specific. For example, as far as maximizing BM DPS, would a BM Hunter ever use Multi or Arcane if they get to stand still and pewpew? Also:

Originally Posted by Relwin View Post
no formulas change between specs with regards to pet scaling. (overall damage will of course, but those are results of talents)
If a BM pet crits and attacks more often than a MM pet, wouldn't that increase the value of AP to a BM pet? Would that not be a direct increase the value of AP to a BM Hunter? That said, since we aren't given a choice between 1 Agi and 1 AP in our itemization (rather, something closer to 1Agi:2AP), is it still wiser to take Agi? I know that given Kings, 1Agi>2AP for most typical gear configurations for MM (but only barely). I consider a BM Hunter's reliance on the pet AP scaling, and pet damage overall, to be akin to MM's reliance on Master Marksman, and a MM Hunter's own damage overall: the value of AP to each spec is increased by both, but not necessarily by the same amount, and it's the difference in that amount that I'm wondering about. Am I thinking about this incorrectly?

For the record, I bring a wolf to raids, and all it does is Furious Howl: it's really only there to boost my group's DPS. Once I have the hit rating to spare to move points away from Survival, I can try out Go for the Throat and start really using my pet for the sake of my own DPS.
#1906SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by mersenne View Post
Could you quote me the proof, or at least point me to the page/post? I seem to have no trouble fitting in 2 specials for 1 Auto once every 4 Autos in my rotation. This way I fire just under a shot a second, and as I understand it, I'd be doing approximately the same as BM.
Global cooldown is 1.5s, human latency tends to be around .1s, and server lag tends to average around .1s, though some people run more or less. Your auto shots cannot be released until 0.5s after the last shot you do gets released (pay attention to your auto shots sometime and note the slight delay in firing directly after an arcane shot or multi-shot). Lets assume a 2.5s shot time.

Assuming a total latency of .2s:

0.0 - Auto Shot
1.7 - Steady Fires
2.4 - Multi-Shot Fires (.5s cast time + .2s latency)
2.9 - Auto Shot (you just clipped)

As you can see, a MM just clipped a shot on their very first rotation by almost half a second. With enough latency it actually adds up pretty quickly. If you have very fast reactions and very low lag, then MM does not clip very badly, but compare that to a BM who has a leisurely 2 seconds in which to fire a single shot with a 1.5s cooldown. Unless you have the worst connection I've ever seen, Beast masters can't clip their shots without severe human error.

As for the number of shots you fire compared to a BM, yes it is about the same. And you will do more personal DPS as MM. As for mana efficiency, BM fires 5 shots in 10 seconds that cost 110 mana each. MM fires 4 of those shots, plus 2 more that cost 230 and around 280 mana respectively, so you'd end up using 950 mana in the same time period.

Admittedly it's a very long thread at this point so I can understand not wanting to read through everything, but the above is very common knowledge when it comes to the MM vs. BM debate so I would assume it would not take you very long to find the information you are looking for.
#1907SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
mersenne
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
Assuming a total latency of .2s:

0.0 - Auto Shot
1.7 - Steady Fires
2.4 - Multi-Shot Fires (.5s cast time + .2s latency)
2.9 - Auto Shot (you just clipped)
Not Steady Multi... Steady Arcane. Subtract from that the .5 second cast time from Multi Shot, replace it with an instant Arcane and there is no clipping there. It makes no sense to put a Multi there if it's going to clip the Auto, when you could put an instant there instead. And when the Arcane GCD is done, then do the Multi, and you won't clip the second Auto either. My rotation looks like this..
Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Multi, Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Instant, Auto
..where Instant is Hunter's Mark, Scorpid Sting, a pot or a healthstone or some other instant that takes time or triggers a GCD. If none of those are appropriate, then a Steady and a clipped Auto is actually most appropriate, since two shots in x+y seconds where y is small > one shot in x seconds.

As far as the mana efficiency, I understand all that, but it's moot to me: I don't seem to go through more mana than Fel Mana Potions can recover in the span of a 10 minute fight, and money is no object to me.

I just thought a summary of the thread was appropriate, if only to encourage the emergence of less well-understood information than the common knowledge you mentioned. It would help someone like me who has never been BM understand the deeper math behind the spec, beyond 'omg Serpent's Swiftness better rotationization FI pewpew' and into raw pet DPS etc., to gain better insight into why it's touted as all that and a bag of chips more than MM. Frankly, I don't know if it's them doing something wrong or me doing something right, but I frequently outdamage our BM Hunters, even in pet-friendly scenarios.

Last edited by mersenne : 08/02/07 at 7:22 PM. Reason: spelling, i shouldnt rush these
#1908SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kaber
Originally Posted by mersenne View Post
Not Steady Multi... Steady Arcane. Subtract from that the .5 second cast time from Multi Shot, replace it with an instant Arcane and there is no clipping there. It makes no sense to put a Multi there if it's going to clip the Auto, when you could put an instant there instead.

Frankly, I don't know if it's them doing something wrong or me doing something right, but I frequently outdamage our BM Hunters, even in pet-friendly scenarios.
Your rotation counts on having Improved arcane shot from the looks of it, because otherwise that rotation would not be possible. Looking at your spec and gear, it looks like you might barely be avoiding shot clipping, but it is certainly close. What is your standard latency while fighting a boss? As for the rest of your spec, I honestly have to say there is no way in hell a decent BM hunter should be losing to you on the DPS meters.

I've never seen a MM capable of out DPSing a pure BM spec without some serious gear/skill differences. I'm usually at least 15-20% higher than MM specs on the DPS charts (and I was once MM so I measured the change in my own DPS as well). There is 1 MM spec I have ever seen that can match a BM, but it certainly isnt the spec I see you using (check the haste thread I posted to see DPS comparisons of MM vs. BM, the one I used for MM does far higher DPS than the one you are currently using). I think you might want to start looking at some of the WWS posts out there and see what specs other people are using. If a BM can't out DPS you they are either in very poor gear, not using a real raid spec, or have no clue what they are doing. I would personally like I get a look at some of your guild's WWS logs from some of your raids to see where your current DPS is and what the BM specs you speak of might be doing wrong.

And for your final "pet friendly" comment, name me a fight you think is not pet friendly and I'll show you how to keep him alive and on the boss without a problem. Even if my pet does die on occasion due to poor circumstances (hey, if I can die once in a while, so can the pet) I have a 4 second rez that brings him back at 50% health.

As for the rest of your post, if you aren't willing to read through any of the discussion or look at the numbers, no one is going to be able to convince you about anything.

Last edited by Kaber : 08/02/07 at 7:52 PM.
#1909SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 vank
Kaber-

I had a thought earlier in the week, but didn't want to sound like I was trying to mooch advice, but in reality, I guess that's what it is. I think it would be cool if some of you guys that have experienced raiding all the way to BT might list the various bosses and what your process is for handling your pet on a given encounter. It would save so much trial and error. Howitzer listed some tactics and what to expect in The Eye earlier in this thread, and I found it to be immensely useful.
#1910SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by vank View Post
Kaber-

I had a thought earlier in the week, but didn't want to sound like I was trying to mooch advice, but in reality, I guess that's what it is. I think it would be cool if some of you guys that have experienced raiding all the way to BT might list the various bosses and what your process is for handling your pet on a given encounter. It would save so much trial and error. Howitzer listed some tactics and what to expect in The Eye earlier in this thread, and I found it to be immensely useful.
Its generally very simple.

1) Avoidance rank2 - no ifs, ands or buts.
2) SSC = max Nature and Frost resists, TK = max fire/arcane. Whatever is left after focus dumps can go into stam/armor, beyond those 2, I dont know which resistances apply, but follow the same rules and it'll work out.
3) Park your pet on the melee DPS - he gets chain heals and circle of healing. If they move, so do you and your pet.
4) Dont be afraid to mend early and often, pull the pet out if you have to (bandage+HoT makes for an incredibly fast heal and range does not break bandaging on pets so you can send him back in early, just be aware combat does break bandaging so dont send him too early).
5) Get to know the fights and just figure out the best spot for both you and your pet.

That's about as in depth as I can get without breaking down every single fight, but I'm off work so you guys are on your own with #5.
#1911SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Mikari
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I sure hope the 2 set bonus doenst give healing threat after the patch.
Based on this picture I found on the US test forum I'm fairly sure that the hunter will get healing threat from the set bonus.



Also seems to proc from things such as gnomish death ray etc, kinda silly if it won't proc from auto-shot.
#1912SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Relwin
Originally Posted by mersenne View Post
stuff
The gist of my post is that Serpent's Swiftness is as good for raid DPS as the entirety of the MM tree. You could completely take the pet out of the picture for a BM hunter and he would, at the very least, give a MM hunter with a pet a run for his money, if not beat him flat out.

BM isn't really the 'pet spec' and you aren't bound entirely to your pet with it, just happens to be named that. (but your pet also adds somewhere in the range of 300-400 DPS depending on the fight and pet, which is really just free DPS)
#1913SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
mersenne
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
As for the rest of your post, if you aren't willing to read through any of the discussion or look at the numbers, no one is going to be able to convince you about anything.
Forgive me if I sounded like a dick or an ignoramus, but I didn't mean to imply that the information is valueless for requiring effort to find. Look at the similar thread about Survival: the first post has an analysis and numbers to back it up. It's not that I don't want to read the thread because it's this long, but I think the info here would be more valuable to everyone if it were consolidated in one post at the beginning, that's all. For example, searching the thread for the value of Imp Revive Pet, I also learned that 5/5 Frenzy is a waste of a talent point, in a post that was irrelevant to the one that contained the information I was looking for. I had already learned a lot from the thread, but those more general questions had gone unanswered and I thought they in particular merited it. Relwin's last post was a good summary of some of the things I wanted to know. Sorry for derailing the thread.

Here is my guild's WWS page, only one of us has ever posted anything there: Wow Web Stats
Here's our first downing of Karathress. Shoran is BM at #4, I'm MM at #5. Shirohito, our Survival Hunter, wasn't there.
Wow Web Stats
Recent VR kill: Wow Web Stats
Lurker kill later: Wow Web Stats
Hydross kill later: Wow Web Stats
Leo incoming, I'll record and upload it tonight. But yes, any suggestions I can give them would be awesome, and I really appreciate your interest in helping them.

Last edited by mersenne : 08/02/07 at 10:44 PM.
#1914SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by mersenne View Post
Forgive me if I sounded like a dick or an ignoramus, but I didn't mean to imply that the information is valueless for requiring effort to find. Look at the similar thread about Survival: the first post has an analysis and numbers to back it up. It's not that I don't want to read the thread because it's this long, but I think the info here would be more valuable to everyone if it were consolidated in one post at the beginning, that's all. For example, searching the thread for the value of Imp Revive Pet, I also learned that 5/5 Frenzy is a waste of a talent point, in a post that was irrelevant to the one that contained the information I was looking for. I had already learned a lot from the thread, but those more general questions had gone unanswered and I thought they in particular merited it. Relwin's last post was a good summary of some of the things I wanted to know. Sorry for derailing the thread.

Here is my guild's WWS page, only one of us has ever posted anything there: Wow Web Stats
Here's our first downing of Karathress. Shoran is BM at #4, I'm MM at #5. Shirohito, our Survival Hunter, wasn't there.
Wow Web Stats
Recent VR kill: Wow Web Stats
Lurker kill later: Wow Web Stats
Hydross kill later: Wow Web Stats
Leo incoming, I'll record and upload it tonight. But yes, any suggestions I can give them would be awesome, and I really appreciate your interest in helping them.
I dont know what your BM hunters are doing. We arent as progressed or in as good gear, but I've been breaking 1k DPS on gruul and mag (with out the cheesy scorpid poison on mag I do around 950). Maybe those fights you posted arent as good for hunter numbers. I will post tonight's mag numbers. Our MM tends to do similar DPS as you with a similar spec, so it looks like you are right on the mark, but your BM specs are way low.
#1915SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3mersenne
Oh right, I forgot to talk about my spec. Ideally I'd be 5/50/6 linked below (we're progressing on Humanoids), but I don't have the hit rating to let go of Surefooted right now. (Rings won't drop -.-)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Once I can manage that, I should be cranking out a little more.
Anyway, I'll have a talk with the BM Hunters after seeing your log. Good to know, thanks muchly.
#1916SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kiklion
Comparing you to shoran Mersenne, since i think he is the only BM hunter.

On VR you fired more auto shots then he did, even though he has serpent swiftness and you don't. So i can only assume that he was moving alot more then you. Fights that require movement are much friendlier to MM then to BM. MM arcane shots hit harder then BM, so firing on the move helps MM more. If your are running away, a BM hunter must stop moving every ~2 seconds if he wants to get off his auto's. This isn't always feasible. A MM hunter only needs to stop for .5 seconds every 2.8 seconds. This is much easier.

Still talking about VR, you had a feral druid compared to him not having one. You were hit with 1 arcane orb, he was hit with 5. He had to bandage twice. Also why did neither of you use your pet's? With max AR and avoidance rank 2 either a shadow priest or just a mend pet every now and then keeps the pet up. Overall it adds to your damage (especially as MM. You have dead time where you can fit an instant as you said before you use it for hunters mark, scorpid sting, etc. You can fit a mend pet in here without loss of dps.)

Lurker below. Once again it is a fight that has movement, and again the number of auto shot's compared to yours is abyssmal. He has 20% haste rating, yet only fired 6 more auto shots? He even has IAotH and is either not paying attention and not shooting, or is horribly clipping auto's.

Hydross: You have a shaman, this shaman is giving you mana and I'm assuming GoA, though it could be windfury and your not getting it in buffs listed due to mana oil. Though with mana tide id assume your in a healer group. This shaman also gave you heroism at one point. Here he is even worse with auto's. You actually fired MORE auto shots then he did, and he has IAotH and serpent's swiftness. Yeah you had heroism for part of the fight, but that shouldn't outweigh his speed buffs. He also seems to be in a tank group and had to change aspects for resists. I see pally, warrior, warlock so he got 0 benefit from his group (since the 5th spot was not a feral druid nor any shaman.) Compared to you that had atleast a shaman giving mana. Furthermore he was tombed 3 times to your one.

Fathom lord i know very little about so I will be brief with it.

Once again he is clipping his auto shots. You fired 163 autos, he fired 169. I see pally, shaman, druid for him, i would assume a warrior would be 5'th and that would give him regen and GoA from the shaman. You had a feral druid and battle shout for your pet. I do notice that he does not use a scorpid wich increases BM's dps alot. Also the other 3 fights cannot have scorpid's use their poison.

Overall I would say that group make-up benefitted you more then the BM hunter in each case except perhaps fathom lord. He is clipping auto shots badly. It is the only explanation i can think of for why he is either behind you in # of auto shots or only slightly ahead. Serpent swiftness, haste, effects auto shots mainly. That in turn effects the number of specials you can perform. By clipping he is wasting the benefit provided by Serpents swiftness. He should also try using a scorpid unless he simply didn't use it on fathom lord since he wanted to use a higher dps pet for other fights (hydross are immune)

Last edited by Kiklion : 08/03/07 at 6:48 AM. Reason: lurker = not immune to poison
#1917SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kaber
Here is my WWS from Mag tonight. Our other BM is Tvak, shes almost always around 100 lower on dps than me just because of class knowledge (she doesnt really do any research), but Dity is MM and he should be a close match on DPS to you. This should give you an idea of what BM is capable of. We're only starting SSC and TK right now.

Wow Web Stats

From what I can see your BM hunter is trying to use a 1:1.5 rotation which would be similar to your rotation given all the arcane/multi shots. He needs to be using a steady/auto only rotation.

Last edited by Kaber : 08/02/07 at 11:48 PM.
#1918SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Inudemon
Originally Posted by Mikari View Post
Based on this picture I found on the US test forum I'm fairly sure that the hunter will get healing threat from the set bonus.

*snip*

Also seems to proc from things such as gnomish death ray etc, kinda silly if it won't proc from auto-shot.
Just tested this on PTR, you don't generate any threat from the heal. In fact, it appears your pet doesn't generate threat from it either.

Used eyes of the beast to proximity aggro 2 low level mobs (they were the nearest mobs at the time) with my pet, killed one of the mobs which resulted in a 120 Health Link, the remaining mob stayed on my pet. To confirm that my pet in fact just had proximity aggro on the mob I used a rank 1 Mend Pet, and sure enough the mob aggroed onto me after 1 tick for 25 health.
#1919SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
From what I can see your BM hunter is trying to use a 1:1.5 rotation which would be similar to your rotation given all the arcane/multi shots. He needs to be using a steady/auto only rotation.
Does your Steady Shot outdamage your Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot?
Do you always end with 0 mana at end of fight, with no way of getting more mana (e.g. by consumables)?
#1920SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ezzy
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
He should also try using a scorpid unless he simply didn't use it on fathom lord since he wanted to use a higher dps pet for other fights (lurker and hydross are immune)

So far only Curator, Hydross and VR have been immune.
#1921SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Phanuel
Scorpids work fine on Lurker, despite his tendency to instagib them when the tank gets a knockback.
#1922SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Ok, i was under the impression that he was immune to poison. I'll edit that. Also, in case others can't figure it out, Lactose is saying that as BM you should use a auto/steady with arcane /multi replacement. IE; Autoshot, Arcane shot, auto shot, multishot, autoshot, steady shot. Since just going auto/steady will not use up all your mana if chain popping pots, and multishot/arcane probably outdamage a steadyshot they can be used to replace to increase damage.

Though I believe for multi to work well you need a 2.0 speed autoshot at least. Wouldn't it got .5 second cast time then 1.5 second GCD? Arcane and steady can function well below 2.0 speed.
#1923SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Hunterlin
As BM you replace steady with multi, instead of casting multi after steady before auto.
#1924SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Yes, I understand that unless your not replying to my post.

My idea was with haste effects you can bring down the cast time of steady shot to 1 second, then have the auto primer of .5 seconds fill out the GCD and then cast another steady shot as soon as the auto fires.

With Multishot, this messes up. Assume an auto just fired and you hit MS. .5 seconds later MS fires. 1 second after that auto comes up again. you still have .5 seconds on GCD wich would leave you only 1 second to fit in a steady shot, when you need 1.5 to fit in the steady + auto primer.
#1925SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Fässchen
I got some very strange Logs from Karathress last Tuesday -

Here is the WWStats for my pet Livingstone in the kill

Livingstone - WWS

And here are the stats from my one of my fellow hunter's pet Kathranis

Kathranis - WWS



Both our Pets are cats with Cobra Reflexes, highest Rank of Claw & Bite

I am geared a little bit better, so I would expect a higher average damage per hit from my pet. This is true for Claw ("Klaue") and Bite ("Beißen") (average 94 vs. 71 / 171 vs. 126), but not for Meelee ("Nahkampf") (259 vs. 304).

I am a little bit confused - anyone eager to take a look into this :-) ?

Last edited by Fässchen : 08/03/07 at 8:32 AM. Reason: closing sentence - wording
#1926SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
Blessing of might, battle shout?
#1927SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Hunterlin
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
you hit MS. .5 seconds later MS fires. 1 second after that auto comes up again. you still have .5 seconds on GCD.
0.0 - auto
0.0 - multi starts, GCD
0.5 - multi
1.5 - auto and GCD clears
#1928SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kiklion
Actually your claw/bite damage should be the same since it doesn't scale. His auto damage may be higher on average if your gear is closer and he got luckier on damage range or his pet had different buffs. Perhaps battle shout, SoE etc. Hard for me to tell I cannot read the language.
#1929SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Daenerys
Originally Posted by Fässchen View Post
I got some very strange Logs from Karathress last Tuesday -

Here is the WWStats for my pet Livingstone in the kill

Livingstone - WWS

And here are the stats from my one of my fellow hunter's pet Kathranis

Kathranis - WWS



Both our Pets are cats with Cobra Reflexes, highest Rank of Claw & Bite

I am geared a little bit better, so I would expect a higher average damage per hit from my pet. This is true for Claw ("Klaue") and Bite ("Beißen") (average 94 vs. 71 / 171 vs. 126), but not for Meelee ("Nahkampf") (259 vs. 304).

I am a little bit confused - anyone eager to take a look into this :-) ?
Are your BM specs a bit different, perhaps?

Edit - Looks like you got screwed on Glancing Hits a bit more than him. Your average Glancing was 224 dmg, his was 276. That could explain the difference. I don't think there is much you can do about that though.
#1930SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Malthes
Originally Posted by Kiklion View Post
Yes, I understand that unless your not replying to my post.

My idea was with haste effects you can bring down the cast time of steady shot to 1 second, then have the auto primer of .5 seconds fill out the GCD and then cast another steady shot as soon as the auto fires.

With Multishot, this messes up. Assume an auto just fired and you hit MS. .5 seconds later MS fires. 1 second after that auto comes up again. you still have .5 seconds on GCD wich would leave you only 1 second to fit in a steady shot, when you need 1.5 to fit in the steady + auto primer.
I guess this needs to be tested...I thought the "hidden cast time" of Multishot didn't count against the GCD; that is, the cooldown starts at button press, and the shot fires 0.5 sec later.

Edit: Sorry, Hunterlin beat me to it.
#1931SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Nevermind.
#1932SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kaladian
Originally Posted by Relwin View Post
The gist of my post is that Serpent's Swiftness is as good for raid DPS as the entirety of the MM tree. You could completely take the pet out of the picture for a BM hunter and he would, at the very least, give a MM hunter with a pet a run for his money, if not beat him flat out.

BM isn't really the 'pet spec' and you aren't bound entirely to your pet with it, just happens to be named that. (but your pet also adds somewhere in the range of 300-400 DPS depending on the fight and pet, which is really just free DPS)
We were discussing in our hunter channel just this point. Right now Serpent's swiftness is the single best talent we have as a class. This talent happens to be in the BM tree but which ever tree it was put in would be the raiding tree. There is almost no way for MM or SV to make up for 20% haste. I thought serpent's swiftness would have got alittle nerf to bring BM down alittle to make MM and SV look better. We all know how blizzard like to nerf one tree to make the others more viable.

Also Kaber that is your PVP gear you logged out in last night? I still cant believe scorpid poison has been "fixed" like lightening breath yet.

Last edited by Kaladian : 08/03/07 at 9:08 AM.
#1933SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fässchen
Blessing of might, battle shout?
Actually your claw/bite damage should be the same since it doesn't scale. His auto damage may be higher on average if your gear is closer and he got luckier on damage range or his pet had different buffs. Perhaps battle shout, SoE etc. Hard for me to tell I cannot read the language.
I suppose this is right - it was unknown to me that claw/bite does not scale with ATP. In fact, Kathranis had Battleshout during the fight.

Thank you very much
#1934SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ezzy
Do you guys have multiple rotation macros or do you weave manually when it's an extraordinary encounter/phase?
#1935SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Ezzy View Post
Do you guys have multiple rotation macros or do you weave manually when it's an extraordinary encounter/phase?
I dunno, personally, I would really shy away from multiple macros for shot rotations anything beyond the simple steady shot / auto shot macro to avoid a clip from a premature button-mashing. The fact is, most encounters will require you to do some adjusting, moving, strafe, and so on, which will make an extensive castsequence macro null and void thus crippling your overall damage output. In my opinion, you should learn to master your rotations manually as it is dynamic, more interesting, and involves more self-discipline and skill.
#1936SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
I have never used cheeky's spreadsheet before today but i'm very bored at work so i gave it a whirl. I tried 2 different specs BM 41/20 and MM 20/41, the mm came out the way i thought it would but Bm realluy surprised me. With my 200 latency Don Santo's rifle won out handle over my present bow which is Sunfury. Actually as the weapon got close to 2.7 the dps when up until you hit 2.6 speed. For a good 40 dps increase i will buy damn Don Santo's or next time Wolfslayer gets shard i might take it.
#1937SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fekta
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I dunno, personally, I would really shy away from multiple macros for shot rotations anything beyond the simple steady shot / auto shot macro to avoid a clip from a premature button-mashing. The fact is, most encounters will require you to do some adjusting, moving, strafe, and so on, which will make an extensive castsequence macro null and void thus crippling your overall damage output. In my opinion, you should learn to master your rotations manually as it is dynamic, more interesting, and involves more self-discipline and skill.
I found that the /castsequence macros were garbage from the point stated above. To be honest I found that hybrid click/keybind tactics work well for DPS'ing "on the fly". I simply bound Kill Command to shift+r and I click my rotation based on my shot timer, Big Trouble. It works well for most encounters. Simply lumping everything into a one button does it all mashfest seems to A: ) take the skill out, and B: ) Leave you no room to react to a situation changing.
#1938SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kaber
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
We were discussing in our hunter channel just this point. Right now Serpent's swiftness is the single best talent we have as a class. This talent happens to be in the BM tree but which ever tree it was put in would be the raiding tree. There is almost no way for MM or SV to make up for 20% haste. I thought serpent's swiftness would have got alittle nerf to bring BM down alittle to make MM and SV look better. We all know how blizzard like to nerf one tree to make the others more viable.

Also Kaber that is your PVP gear you logged out in last night? I still cant believe scorpid poison has been "fixed" like lightening breath yet.
Probably. I never pay attention to what gear I log out in, so if I have the PvP trinket on it's PvP gear. For my scorpid, I think I got it up for a potential 1400 per tick on our 3rd banish phase (we never hold it for the full duration so timing it is a pain in the ass), but since I respecced out of AH a few weeks ago thinking I'd replace my scorpid with a ravager (silly me), and I accidentally left claw on, it dropped by the time I got it to a 2stack. My scorpid's DPS was pretty pathetic for that run.

As far as MM/survival are concerned, I would rather see both of them buffed. There's a lot that blizzard could do to make them more viable. As it stands, Survival might be worthwhile, but it would be nice to see 40% of the agility translate to EW, especially since it doesn't scale nearly as well going in to the end-game. As it stands, MM only performs well with 43 in MM and all spare points tossed in to the BM tree, and you cannot have much latency or shots get clipped and your DPS takes a nose dive. It would be nice if shots scaled in damage with weapon speed so that a 1:1 rotation would be a better option for MM.

Last edited by Kaber : 08/03/07 at 1:19 PM.
#1939SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
majorerror
I'm still trying to work out why so many of the Hunters in top-end guilds are marksman though. Is it a case where the treshhold of "BM's Usefulness" is overtaken by Marksman due to gear? From what i can see, MM hunters simply can't stand up against the Bm hunter's DPS (From my own raiding experience), if so, whats the point in being MM? Maybe a personal affinity for the build or a lack of willingness to try BM? Any answers would be appreciated.

Last edited by majorerror : 08/04/07 at 12:38 PM.
#1940SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
Just a quicky,

When experiencing large latency, or long(ish) lag spikes, does your pets damage momentarily stop aswell? Could this cause large problems with scorpion venom?
#1941SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3senior toasted bread
Originally Posted by Zogeth View Post
Just a quicky,

When experiencing large latency, or long(ish) lag spikes, does your pets damage momentarily stop aswell? Could this cause large problems with scorpion venom?
Negative, when i get "lagged out" to the point that i cant do anything i still see my pet attacking.
#1942SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Olgas
Originally Posted by majorerror View Post
I'm still trying to work out why so many of the Hunters in top-end guilds are marksman though. Is it a case where the treshhold of "BM's Usefulness" is overtaken by Marksman due to gear? From what i can see, MM hunters simply can't stand up against the Bm hunter's DPS (From my own raiding experience), if so, whats the point in being MM? Maybe a personal affinity for the build or a lack of willingness to try BM? Any answers would be appreciated, im tired of trying to work out a silly issue such as this.
This is a great question.

Honestly, for some folks I think it's still just inertia from pre-BC days. They raided as MM before and just haven't even tried BM since BC came out. It's crazy, I know -- but you hear this even from pretty serious players.

And I think the other thing is that some folks just don't like having to worry about their pet as much as we BM hunters do. Their playstyle is different -- they like to really focus on perfecting their shot rotation -- and find worrying about their pet to be just annoying.

Heck, I still frequently see MM hunters who raid and do heroics without even using their pet at all. They don't even take their pet out the whole raid. Yes, it's insanely dumb, but you do see it... Sometimes, I wonder why those folks ever rolled Hunters in the first place, if they have such an aversion to using their pets.

But I think the other thing is that, as much as we like to tout how great BM is, a good MM Hunter can still do pretty darn well. It's not like they're a million miles behind BM. If they're decently skilled and equipped, they can still throw down a good rate of DPS. And, personally, I'll take a skilled MM Hunter over an unskilled BM hunter any day of the week.
#1943SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by majorerror View Post
I'm still trying to work out why so many of the Hunters in top-end guilds are marksman though. Is it a case where the treshhold of "BM's Usefulness" is overtaken by Marksman due to gear? From what i can see, MM hunters simply can't stand up against the Bm hunter's DPS (From my own raiding experience), if so, whats the point in being MM? Maybe a personal affinity for the build or a lack of willingness to try BM? Any answers would be appreciated.
There is a very solid MM spec that out DPSes BM until you hit end-game haste gear (refer to my hunter haste discussion a few threads down). 18/43/0 is big on DPS, but poor on mana efficiency and you have to have low latency or immaculate timing to be able to out DPS a BM. Unfortunately most MM hunters go with a 0/47/14 build, which doesnt really benefit their DPS by putting points in the survival tree. MM is a better heroic build, since it allows people the flexibility to take trapping talents where the pure BM dps build does not have any (both get put to shame by survival).

Mostly I think people keep MM because its what they're used to, and it's what they like to PvP as. I can tell you I absolutely hated BM the first day I tried it and could not kill anything in PvP so I went right back to marksman. It took a while, but eventually I figured out PvP as a BM spec, but I understand why people have immediate bad reactions to it: their burst damage goes straight down the toilet. A clothie they could have killed in 3-4 shots before would suddenly take 6+ because of the large difference in personal damage. Granted you are firing faster, so it works out, but that initial shock of losing those huge crits is probably too much for some people to handle.
#1944SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3okla
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
There is a very solid MM spec that out DPSes BM until you hit end-game haste gear (refer to my hunter haste discussion a few threads down). 18/43/0 is big on DPS, but poor on mana efficiency and you have to have low latency or immaculate timing to be able to out DPS a BM. Unfortunately most MM hunters go with a 0/47/14 build, which doesnt really benefit their DPS by putting points in the survival tree. MM is a better heroic build, since it allows people the flexibility to take trapping talents where the pure BM dps build does not have any (both get put to shame by survival).

Mostly I think people keep MM because its what they're used to, and it's what they like to PvP as. I can tell you I absolutely hated BM the first day I tried it and could not kill anything in PvP so I went right back to marksman. It took a while, but eventually I figured out PvP as a BM spec, but I understand why people have immediate bad reactions to it: their burst damage goes straight down the toilet. A clothie they could have killed in 3-4 shots before would suddenly take 6+ because of the large difference in personal damage. Granted you are firing faster, so it works out, but that initial shock of losing those huge crits is probably too much for some people to handle.
personally i think its because ppl logged out after arena sessions etc, we had a mm hunter aswell, on most fight he wasnt able to keep up with the dps, bar some fights offcourse. Eventually he switched and he's getting up there.

When you check profiles now, bare in mind that some of those guilds have cleared most/all content and thus loose the " need" for cutting edge dps, so perhaps they just want to try out mm spec again.

I know ill be doing just that when we kill illidan (and he hopefully drops his bow..)
#1945SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
There is a very solid MM spec that out DPSes BM until you hit end-game haste gear (refer to my hunter haste discussion a few threads down). 18/43/0 is big on DPS, but poor on mana efficiency and you have to have low latency or immaculate timing to be able to out DPS a BM. Unfortunately most MM hunters go with a 0/47/14 build, which doesnt really benefit their DPS by putting points in the survival tree. MM is a better heroic build, since it allows people the flexibility to take trapping talents where the pure BM dps build does not have any (both get put to shame by survival).

Mostly I think people keep MM because its what they're used to, and it's what they like to PvP as. I can tell you I absolutely hated BM the first day I tried it and could not kill anything in PvP so I went right back to marksman. It took a while, but eventually I figured out PvP as a BM spec, but I understand why people have immediate bad reactions to it: their burst damage goes straight down the toilet. A clothie they could have killed in 3-4 shots before would suddenly take 6+ because of the large difference in personal damage. Granted you are firing faster, so it works out, but that initial shock of losing those huge crits is probably too much for some people to handle.
Show some wws first. Personally i have tried 20/41 MM build and its still subpar to BM, even if its way better than MM/surv hybrid. I don't think you have realized how powerful serpent swiftness is. BMs are generally about 4-500 dps higher than equal skilled and geared MM.

And MM isn't even close to the burst dmg BM is capable off, its not even funny. Even PoM pyro mages gets a run for their money in terms of burst. not even 12k 300 resilience warriors stand up very long during my TBW + Rapid Fire +Blood Fury + Bloodlust Brooch with steady shot opener, MS, AS, often KC, FD before intercept then stead shot again then any auto shots i get during that time. Now if imp hawk procs too and don santos blessing (250 AP) which they usually do with the high procc rate of them its even more sex, Heck, once in a while my Hourglass of the unraveller procs too for 300 more AP. And i can do it all every 2 min...
no MM can be close to that burst, period.
#1946SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Show some wws first. Personally i have tried 20/41 MM build and its still subpar to BM, even if its way better than MM/surv hybrid. I don't think you have realized how powerful serpent swiftness is. BMs are generally about 4-500 dps higher than equal skilled and geared MM.

And MM isn't even close to the burst dmg BM is capable off, its not even funny. Even PoM pyro mages gets a run for their money in terms of burst. not even 12k 300 resilience warriors stand up very long during my TBW + Rapid Fire +Blood Fury + Bloodlust Brooch with steady shot opener, MS, AS, often KC, FD before intercept then stead shot again then any auto shots i get during that time. Now if imp hawk procs too and don santos blessing (250 AP) which they usually do with the high procc rate of them its even more sex, Heck, once in a while my Hourglass of the unraveller procs too for 300 more AP. And i can do it all every 2 min...
no MM can be close to that burst, period.
Show some WWS first? I dont know if it is possible for me to be any more clear: it is theoretical damage that I modeled in the haste thread, and as I said it would require one hell of a player and incredibly low latency. I asked a friend to get me a WWS log of their guild this week with Thott (its his spec I modeled the one in the haste thread after). So have some patience, and dont come after me like I just slammed BM as a non-raid build or something. Go read the thread before you get offended next time. Or maybe if you looked me up in the armory you'd see what raid spec I'm actually using. Or you could even read my entire comment instead of looking through the first line and having a knee-jerk reaction.
#1947SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fraud
Hey, I'm just wondering if theres a certain kind of pet that is prefered for raiding BM hunters. Obviously you would want a high dps one, so cat comes to mind, but with the way scorpid poison is now would they be better? Is there another kind of pet I'm missing? Thanks.
#1948SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3sasukekun
Originally Posted by Fraud View Post
Hey, I'm just wondering if theres a certain kind of pet that is prefered for raiding BM hunters. Obviously you would want a high dps one, so cat comes to mind, but with the way scorpid poison is now would they be better? Is there another kind of pet I'm missing? Thanks.
Ravager because of Gore.
#1949SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Avellyr
Scorpid, because the poison's scaling is completely off-the-walls ridiculous right now.

In response to Majorerror's question, I was marks for a while just because I didn't like BM. Without a scorpid, the difference isn't that pronounced anyway. There were some fights where I would do extremely well, and some fights where I wouldn't. There's also the issue that several of the major fights in BT/Hyjal basically give the middle finger to pets, and it wasn't fun watching 20% of my dps get fried crispy and being able to do nothing about it (regardless of whether I could still do competitive dps without my pet). I didn't like the way BM spec marginalized the usefulness of rapid fire, quick shots, and haste gear either.

Marksmanship is also a much better PvP spec in my opinion, it provides a build that gives you acceptable DPS in raids while still being solid in PvP. Not to say that BM is bad per se, but it's hard to compete with the two low-cooldown interrupts you get from marks.
#1950SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Zogeth
With no theory to back it up, I'm starting to think that BM doesn't really scale well. Hmm, maybe thats a bit bold, but a topic for discussion.

What i mean by this is that it scales the same as an MM hunter (obviously) but pet dps is not going to increase at the same rate your dps increases. Coupled with th addition of all these new haste items, MM is going to become superior in high end raiding. (Keeping a pet up in some fights is just a bitch)

My guild has progressed as far as Leotheras, but i can see future fights just being a bitch to my pet. (Thinking about the Azgalor, essence of souls kind of encounters).

Admittedly, I haven't checked the thread for the following question, but does all the +armor penetration items I'm seeing, does your pet gain some of this too, like he does other stats?

Edit: I am starting to see more hunters change back to MM once they start raking in the goodies from Hyjal and Mid range black temple.

Is there a point where MM becomes better than BM?

Last edited by Zogeth : 08/05/07 at 9:35 AM.
#1951SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Tilethryn
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Does your Steady Shot outdamage your Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot?
Do you always end with 0 mana at end of fight, with no way of getting more mana (e.g. by consumables)?
From the way you quoted someone re: a 1:1 v. 1:1.5 shot rotation, are you implying that BMs should in fact go for the latter or simply that a 1:1 with an arcane or multi in place of a steady should would be appropriate mana considerations being moot?

I only ask as I'm still pretty new to BM (Marks until about 3 weeks ago or so) and I often see folks claiming that even if a BM pet is taken out of the equation a BM hunter will in fact keep up with a MM hunter. On very long fights (Gruul, for example) this is generally the case compared to the 23/37 (I think hes usually 26/35, but I'm not sure) and 20/41 mm/surv hunters in my guild (i.e. I'ma bout 1% behind them when SWstats counts pet dmg seperate but well above when pet dmg is counted as my own). On shorter fights, I can be on top by a very large margin but fall to 3rd or so (i.e. 5-6% down from the other hunters or so? I really can't recall numbers) when pet damage is not included. No one in my guild uses WWS, so I'm afraid I can't post any logs. Generally I do a straight auto-steady rotation with KC when applicable.

Incidentally, I'm curious about how most folk are handling Rapid Fire as BM. Should I stick with auto-steady or start flinging instants when available (due to bad bad clipping with an auto-steady rotation) when Rapid Fire is up?

Edit: I'll keep the original up for comments and esp. because I am looking for info. on how BM hunters are utilizing Rapid Fire. As I dwell on this question, however, it does make sense that an auto/steady priority rotation (arcane/multi replacing steady) would be better dps, but for me mana concerns are a reality. I could probably give arcane/multi priority when TBW is up (due to them being 20% cheaper) but the rest of the time would run me OOM very quickly. The mats for Fel Mana potions are, unfortunately, almost never available on my extremely low pop server, and my toon is LW with a BS alt. I could eventually level my druid and roll herb/alchy, but that takes a lot of time I don't have. I spam Superior Mana potions atm, but if I get one that happens to grant a low "proc" it is very easy for me to be close to out before the next cd is up. Another low proc, of course, is devestating at this point. Is FD/drink an acceptable alternative?

Thanks much for comments. I've done very well switching BM (actually, with my pets data merged, I haven't been beat yet =)) and learned oodles at this site, just trying to tweak my rotations/priorites to eke out as much dps as I can.

Last edited by Tilethryn : 08/05/07 at 12:06 PM.
#1952SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Zogeth View Post
With no theory to back it up, I'm starting to think that BM doesn't really scale well. Hmm, maybe thats a bit bold, but a topic for discussion.

What i mean by this is that it scales the same as an MM hunter (obviously) but pet dps is not going to increase at the same rate your dps increases. Coupled with th addition of all these new haste items, MM is going to become superior in high end raiding. (Keeping a pet up in some fights is just a bitch)

My guild has progressed as far as Leotheras, but i can see future fights just being a bitch to my pet. (Thinking about the Azgalor, essence of souls kind of encounters).

Admittedly, I haven't checked the thread for the following question, but does all the +armor penetration items I'm seeing, does your pet gain some of this too, like he does other stats?

Edit: I am starting to see more hunters change back to MM once they start raking in the goodies from Hyjal and Mid range black temple.

Is there a point where MM becomes better than BM?
Refer to this thread for the theory crafting:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14843-h...d_game_builds/

The short answer: No. MM does not scale better with haste than BM, nor does it surpass BM *unless* you run an unhasted 18/43/0 build and are a god among men when it comes to reflexes and have very low latency to avoid clipping shots (this is only pre-haste gear where MM can hope to match BM). Again, this is theory crafting using Cheeky's spread sheet, so if you want to doubt the results it makes no difference to me; however, I have yet to find a reason to distrust the numbers I get by using it. Yes, I know, you all want WWS logs in the end-game. If someone wants to provide them be my guest, since I don't have access to T6/Haste gear.
#1953SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
senior toasted bread
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14843-h...d_game_builds/ is what you seek.

And yes bm pets don't scale as fast as your personal dps, but they do scale with your ap and to a lesser extent your crit, through GffT and KC. If you want to see if mm is better at t6 gear download Cheeky's spreadsheet and test it for yourself.

Edit-Meh I'm a nub and i didn't check the last page, only 2 hours late!

Last edited by senior toasted bread : 08/05/07 at 2:15 PM. Reason: I'm a nub
#1954SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Relwin
Originally Posted by Zogeth View Post
pet management thing
The only fights in which you can lose your pet in an instant (as far as T6 content) are: Archimonde - Doomfire is dead pet, Azgalor - bad rain of fire is dead pet, Supremus - bad volcano is dead pet, Shahraz requires a full SR pet but is entirely survivable (also pets don't get the prismatic shield debuff so scorpid poison is always ticking for full), Council - it's just really hard to use your pet on the fight but it can die to sequential AOEs, Illidan - Agonizing Flames is dead pet


Really only five fights in which your pet has a death sentence should the dice roll poorly. The pets can however still have a meaningful impact during their lifespan though as you'll certainly see in some Illidan kills with hunters running scorpids coming out way in front of other DPS classes.
#1955SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Nonny
I was wondering how the "Striking" ring enchant works out for a hunter, considering how the Khorium scope and simmilar +weapon damage scopes don't add to Steady shot damage I'm guessing that the same is true for the ring enchants, but it would be nice to hear if someone did some solid math for the impact they would have.
#1956SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Originally Posted by Tilethryn View Post
Incidentally, I'm curious about how most folk are handling Rapid Fire as BM. Should I stick with auto-steady or start flinging instants when available (due to bad bad clipping with an auto-steady rotation) when Rapid Fire is up?
What I do is start with a multi between the first and second autos, followed by an arcane between the second and third autos, and then start pressing my steady shot key as fast as I can. With .8 second steady shots and a 1.5 second GCD, my autoshots naturally fire .5 seconds after my steady shot ends but before the GCD ends. This means I am in no danger of fully delaying an autoshots with 2 steadies back to back, and my primary concern becomes starting my next steady as soon as possible after GCD ends.

I end up delaying each autoshot by a small amount, but delaying an autoshot by .2 seconds is preferable to delaying a steady shot by .5 seconds or a full second or whatever. I haven't been able to devise any sequence of shots at that level of haste that doesn't clip autoshots while maintaining special shot dps. I doubt that one exists.
#1957SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3lilwolfe
Ok, this is going to be a very dumb question to most, so bear with me. I've never used macros for my shot rotation, ever. In fact, mostly, I just go off of the sound of my shots firing and a single cast bar from Bongos that shows me my steady shot. Lately, I've seen my dps drop and I assume that I've picked up a bad habit on my rotation and it needs to be worked out. So I downloaded Quartz.

At what point of the autoshot castbar do you begin your next steady? I notice that I can start it before the autoshot bar is full and still get the autoshot off, but there's a definite line where I can start it and get the shot, or where it gets clipped.

It also asks me for a spell to set as the global cool down, but when I type it in there and exit out of quartz, it disappears. I don't know if that is causing problems with getting the thing set up right or not.

Lastly, I notice at the bottom of the cast bar a small reading of numbers followed by ms. Is this a readout of my current latency? Or something else? It hops from between 90 ms and 332 ms from shot to shot, so if it's my latency... oh dear god.
#1958SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
At what point of the autoshot castbar do you begin your next steady? I notice that I can start it before the autoshot bar is full and still get the autoshot off, but there's a definite line where I can start it and get the shot, or where it gets clipped.
The point at which you can start your steady without clipping an auto is variable, dependent on latency. The assumption I worked under when I was manually timing my shots were: It takes latency/2 ms for a key press I initiate to reach the server. So if my latency was 200ms I could hit my steady shot 100ms early. In practice my latency is always under 200ms so my window to fire an early steady was extremely small. The cost of clobbering an entire auto shot is huge, which is why I used a macro.

Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
It also asks me for a spell to set as the global cool down, but when I type it in there and exit out of quartz, it disappears. I don't know if that is causing problems with getting the thing set up right or not.
Hit enter after you type a spell into the text field, that seems to save it. I use tracking of some sort.

Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Lastly, I notice at the bottom of the cast bar a small reading of numbers followed by ms. Is this a readout of my current latency? Or something else? It hops from between 90 ms and 332 ms from shot to shot, so if it's my latency... oh dear god.
Yes, that is your latency. Quartz gets your latency at the start of each cast and generates the red bar and text.
#1959SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3lilwolfe
Thank you so much Glaurong! That helps a ton. I've tried hitting enter after typing in the spell to use for global cooldown. (Originally tried Track Humanoids) It just makes it disappear on me. But I will try it again. And man... that latency hopping is going to drive me mad. Could that be one of the causes of my newfound dip in dps? Sudden hopping of my latency? It never shows that on my normal latency bar from bongos, that says I hover at like 200 ish.
#1960SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Thank you so much Glaurong! That helps a ton. I've tried hitting enter after typing in the spell to use for global cooldown. (Originally tried Track Humanoids) It just makes it disappear on me. But I will try it again. And man... that latency hopping is going to drive me mad. Could that be one of the causes of my newfound dip in dps? Sudden hopping of my latency? It never shows that on my normal latency bar from bongos, that says I hover at like 200 ish.
Quartz ping bar isnt very accurate, i got 3 different i think and none of them hops as much as quarts bar does. Doesnt matter if ive had steady 70-120, i still get 300-400 readouts once in awhile during that time.
#1961SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
Thank you so much Glaurong! That helps a ton. I've tried hitting enter after typing in the spell to use for global cooldown. (Originally tried Track Humanoids) It just makes it disappear on me. But I will try it again. And man... that latency hopping is going to drive me mad. Could that be one of the causes of my newfound dip in dps? Sudden hopping of my latency? It never shows that on my normal latency bar from bongos, that says I hover at like 200 ish.
Most things treat latency as a rolling average and that is sufficient to tell if you have a connection problem. Quartz attempts to give you latency at a point in time with a single polling of the UI. If I was going to implement it I would probably start a rolling average at the beginning of the cast and update it through the cast. I'm not ambitious enough to dig into quartz however and my latency is low enough that it doesn't really matter.
#1962SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3JuhnorX
Hi all, Newb here with first post.

Background-

Social endgame guild on EU Sunstrider.
Attempts on Vashj (18% last night).
Usually 41/20 build, use Auto/Steady/KC Macro when latency high, highest bite/claw on Cat.

Problem-

I was looking at our WWS logs from our try last night (only used WWS for 2 raids so far) and noticed my pet has a ridiculously high miss rate on all of its attacks (~20%).

Is this normal? Is it the type of mobs? (elementals mainly) Or am i doing something wrong?

It got me thinking if i should talent for Animal Handler (+pet hit) and if you think it would make an overall dps increase.

WWS

I did look through forum to find answers but couldn't hence the post.

Thankyou for your time, PRO forum and users btw
#1963SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Zedd
Animal handler is a great talent, you cant go wrong speccing it
edit: I should give at least an example

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is what I am going to use myself as soon as I remember to respec

Last edited by Zedd : 08/08/07 at 6:53 AM.
#1964SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by JuhnorX View Post
I was looking at our WWS logs from our try last night (only used WWS for 2 raids so far) and noticed my pet has a ridiculously high miss rate on all of its attacks (~20%).

Is this normal? Is it the type of mobs? (elementals mainly) Or am i doing something wrong?
...
WWS
'Miss' includes dodges, parries and blocks. I'd say your results are normal, with these factors taken into account.
#1965SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
On a similar note re: pet misses...

Does +hit gear on the hunter affect the pet in any way? (I didn't get statistically significant results changing from 130 to 147 (hunter hit rating) when analyzing pet hit rate numbers on WWS).
#1966SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Daenerys
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
On a similar note re: pet misses...

Does +hit gear on the hunter affect the pet in any way? (I didn't get statistically significant results changing from 130 to 147 (hunter hit rating) when analyzing pet hit rate numbers on WWS).
Nope, sadly it doesn't.
#1967SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Carlaena
Originally Posted by Xoran View Post
Very simple addon idea:

Small window showing damage done by last poison tick and # of stacks like xxx / x.
(I don't like my EavesDrop being clobbered with all the pet data)
There already is an addon that does exactly that. I'm sure it's on curse somewhere. I'll find the link when I get home.
#1968SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Serpica
Scorpid Poison Counter. It works.
#1969SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
Refer to this thread for the theory crafting:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14843-h...d_game_builds/

The short answer: No. MM does not scale better with haste than BM, nor does it surpass BM *unless* you run an unhasted 18/43/0 build and are a god among men when it comes to reflexes and have very low latency to avoid clipping shots (this is only pre-haste gear where MM can hope to match BM). Again, this is theory crafting using Cheeky's spread sheet, so if you want to doubt the results it makes no difference to me; however, I have yet to find a reason to distrust the numbers I get by using it. Yes, I know, you all want WWS logs in the end-game. If someone wants to provide them be my guest, since I don't have access to T6/Haste gear.
And I take it back. The Dragonspine trophy actually makes MM far surpass BM. Without it, though, I would still take a hasted BM build for the 1:1 low mana rotation and great DPS. Not many people will be able to get the DST.
#1970SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
And I take it back. The Dragonspine trophy actually makes MM far surpass BM. Without it, though, I would still take a hasted BM build for the 1:1 low mana rotation and great DPS. Not many people will be able to get the DST.
Unless the BM hunter get a slow weapon too, then he by far surpass the MM yet again.
#1971SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Zedd View Post
Animal handler is a great talent, you cant go wrong speccing it
edit: I should give at least an example

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is what I am going to use myself as soon as I remember to respec
Its as great as a 1.4% dps increase is for your pet only for a whole 2 points. Its some time ago i saw the math but it was around that for total dps increase output practically considering for example glancing blow.
#1972SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Unless the BM hunter get a slow weapon too, then he by far surpass the MM yet again.
Actually he doesn't. Refer to the linked thread for my updated numbers.
#1973SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Illy
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
And I take it back. The Dragonspine trophy actually makes MM far surpass BM. Without it, though, I would still take a hasted BM build for the 1:1 low mana rotation and great DPS. Not many people will be able to get the DST.
Something else to consider is does the boost MM may get at higher gear levels even with a DST offset the loss of dps to the group that a BM brings with FI? FI stacks, scales, and helps more than 1 group in a raid (2, for those lucky enough to have a stacked BM group) compared to TSA.

I did respectable dps when I was a MM, but what solidified BM as my build was not only my dps increase but the fact I was helping any dps in whatever group I find myself in (sadly, still get put in with healers occasionally).

On a side note, does anyone know if FI affects DoTs only when they're applied or whenever it procs?
#1974SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Only upon application.

The general rule of thumb is that mob debuffs affect all damage that occurs, as it occurs (Stormstrike and Scorpid Poison is an example). Player buffs/debuffs affect spells on their initial application (Bestial Wrath and Scorpid Poison is another example.
#1975SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Illy View Post
Something else to consider is does the boost MM may get at higher gear levels even with a DST offset the loss of dps to the group that a BM brings with FI? FI stacks, scales, and helps more than 1 group in a raid (2, for those lucky enough to have a stacked BM group) compared to TSA.

I did respectable dps when I was a MM, but what solidified BM as my build was not only my dps increase but the fact I was helping any dps in whatever group I find myself in (sadly, still get put in with healers occasionally).

On a side note, does anyone know if FI affects DoTs only when they're applied or whenever it procs?
TSA actually does more than we think. Older data supported the 14ap:1dps ratio, but it is actually 3ap:1dps for most melee DPS, while its about 6ap:1dps for druids (in any form) and prot warriors. So 125 AP from TSA on a melee group buffs the group by about 42 DPS. Plus straight up AP on pets scales an incredible amount, I dont know the figures off-hand but I believe it to be a much greater gain for a pet than any player is capable of. In order for FI to over-take TSA, you would need to essentially be in the Black Temple with physical DPSers that average over 1200 DPS just about every fight. FI is great for caster groups, so it opens up more options for the hunter, but it is not as big a buff over TSA as we originally thought. Also, given that it is not up 100% of the time (though it can often reach over 95%), that diminishes the effects just a tiny bit more.

I do believe FI affects all damage. DoT damage is figured when it is applied and stays at that mark until it drops or gets replaced (which is why scorpid poison stacking never technically gets "replaced" since all it does it refresh the 5stack).
#1976SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
...you would need to essentially be in the Black Temple with physical DPSers that average over 1200 DPS just about every fight...
Our rogues are averaging about 1000-1100DPS across an entire raid nights WWS report. It is completely reasonable to expect your melee DPS to be at that level. And it is just as reasonable to expect your caster DPS to be there too

That being said, I agree that TSA is more valuable than previously expected (just like EW turns out to be absolutely stellar for raid DPS contributions, probably the greatest single contribution possible by 1 person (except perhaps a WF dropping shaman in a group of all rogues, cursed OP WF...QQ).

All told, as we all learn to better itemize for each of the specs and to better execute our shot cycles (I still want to see what how a 1:1.5 rotation with intended auto delays for a BM/Hasted MM hunter does to their DPS) it's looking like Blizzard did a much better job of balancing the 3 specs for raiding than we all thought. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and more and more it is becoming a raid-make-up/play-style decision instead of the presupposed BM>ALL that was running around for so long.
#1977SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
In order for FI to over-take TSA, you would need to essentially be in the Black Temple with physical DPSers that average over 1200 DPS just about every fight.
1200 DPS from a melee is pretty reasonable in Black Temple. The main reason why TSA is poor is because it benefits physical DPS only, and you are unlikely to be in a group with 5 physical DPSers.
#1978SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3garhent
Question on Kill Command. I was using this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

And my personal DPS compared to the hunters in raid were pathetic. Meanwhile, a similarly equipped and specced hunter could do about 1.5% to 2% more dps himself sans pet than myself. I talked with one of the hunters in guild and he does not have kill command macroed. From looking at my animations, I believe Kill command is destroying my shot rotation. The next raid, I will not have kill command macroed to test this out.

Anyone know if this is true?
#1979SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Unbalanced
Along a different train of thought is there a "shadowpanther" type website or anyone have a comprehensive list of best of slot PVE BM raiding gear. I haven't been able to do numbers on armor pen vs other stats, and the dps bonus from four piece tier 6. Any feedback appreciated.
#1980SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Emilykane
Originally Posted by garhent View Post
Question on Kill Command. I was using this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

And my personal DPS compared to the hunters in raid were pathetic. Meanwhile, a similarly equipped and specced hunter could do about 1.5% to 2% more dps himself sans pet than myself. I talked with one of the hunters in guild and he does not have kill command macroed. From looking at my animations, I believe Kill command is destroying my shot rotation. The next raid, I will not have kill command macroed to test this out.

Anyone know if this is true?
Like mentioned about 100 times in the last 20-30 pages in this thread, this macro will delay your Autoshots by 0.5s whenever it casts Kill Command.

Try to use 2 macros, the standart

/castsequence reset=2 Auto Shot, Steady Shot

and

/castsequence reset=6 Auto Shot, Kill Command, Steady Shot.

(i use a third, to dont clip shots when fitting in a Multi-Shot)

/castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Multi-Shot
#1981SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Tilethryn
Originally Posted by Emilykane View Post
Like mentioned about 100 times in the last 20-30 pages in this thread, this macro will delay your Autoshots by 0.5s whenever it casts Kill Command.

Try to use 2 macros, the standart

/castsequence reset=2 Auto Shot, Steady Shot

and

/castsequence reset=6 Auto Shot, Kill Command, Steady Shot.

(i use a third, to dont clip shots when fitting in a Multi-Shot)

/castsequence reset=10 Auto Shot, Multi-Shot
As someone who barely understands macros, what is the difference between these two macros and the one macro previously mentioned? The latter isn't going to delay an auto shot unless kc is up. Will using these two macros allow one to spam your first macro to auto/steady and, when kc is up, spam the 2nd macro to use an order similar to auto-kc-steady as opposed to auto-steady-kc that happens with the macro mentioned a few posts up?

I ask becasue as the poster said, with my pet no one beats me. When my pets dps is not counted, however, I lose to mm and sv hunters in personal dps.
#1982SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
The second macro waits for Auto Shot to occur before casting Kill Command. This ensures you do not delay Auto Shot by casting Kill Command right before it.
#1983SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ladwenae
Originally Posted by garhent View Post
Question on Kill Command. I was using this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Is how I use it, this way KC is cast before SS and it should eliviate the 0.5 delay issue.

I have a second macro with:
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
That I use if pet is dead.
#1984SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Emilykane
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Is how I use it, this way KC is cast before SS and it should eliviate the 0.5 delay issue.

I have a second macro with:
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
That I use if pet is dead.
I tried this too but it wasn't stopping getting KCs before Auto Shots.
I think its because all macro lines are executed on EACH part of the /castsequence (SS / AS)
#1985SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Is how I use it, this way KC is cast before SS and it should eliviate the 0.5 delay issue.

I have a second macro with:
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
That I use if pet is dead.
What happens if your pet is dead and you try to use the first macro above? Does it hang? Would replacing the line with the line below fix the problem?

/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
#1986SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
I parsed through the WWS file from our first (ahem 16) attempts on Hydross... and out of 1463 steady shots - I had a time of less than the Global Cooldown between Steady Shots 26 times.

Wow Web Stats

I'd like to form a reasonable explanation of how this is possible or address the current hypothesis on global cooldown as it applies to Steady Shots while under extreme hasted states.

Shortest Steady to Steady Gap Time at Time indexes in the log.
1.09s gap at 05:28:16.796
1.39s gap at 03:12:19.671
1.31s gap at 03:56:15.046
1.34s gap at 02:37:25.859 and 04:34.54.062
1.36s gap at 03:52:44.843
#1987SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Lactose
Bloodlust / Heroism affects the global cooldown.

EDIT: Since this is a 30% haste, Steady Shot can be chained together with a delay of 1.15 seconds. 1.09, as you've experienced once, is most likely due to a ~60ms change in latency.

Last edited by Lactose : 08/09/07 at 11:21 AM.
#1988SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Turnaan
I switched over to BM a while back and I'm pretty happy with my dps now, but haven't been seeing the chart-topping dps that everyone is talking about. I'm decently geared:

The Armory

and I use the SS macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

but on a good day I'm 4-5th on the meters and on a bad day(also on bad bosses) I'm 8th-9th. Up until this point I haven't been using a Scorpid but I did pick one up today so we'll see if that makes up the difference. If there's anything I'm missing, could someone clue me in? 80 pages of responses is a little daunting to sift through.
#1989SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Turnaan View Post
I switched over to BM a while back and I'm pretty happy with my dps now, but haven't been seeing the chart-topping dps that everyone is talking about.
Probably the best thing to do is post a WWS where you kill a few bosses so people can critique you compared to other members of your raid.
#1990SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Bloodlust / Heroism affects the global cooldown.

EDIT: Since this is a 30% haste, Steady Shot can be chained together with a delay of 1.15 seconds. 1.09, as you've experienced once, is most likely due to a ~60ms change in latency.
I was in group with a Shaman - I will verfiy that I was under the effects of Heroism during those portions of the fight. I am sure that is the reason for it, and thanks for replying before I tore my brain apart coming up with alternative theories on global cooldown.
#1991SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Emilykane View Post
#1
/castsequence reset=2 Auto Shot, Steady Shot

#2
/castsequence reset=6 Auto Shot, Kill Command, Steady Shot.
Are castsequences shared between macros?

For example if you are using Macro #1 above, and you fire an auto shot and then immediately switch to macro #2, will it pick up at the Kill Command or will it wait to fire an auto shot?

And a more complicated scenario:
#1
/castsequence reset=5 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot

#2
/castsequence reset=5 Auto shot, Kill Command, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot

What will happen if you switch from #1 to #2 after the second Steady Shot?

Is there a better thread where the intracacies of multiple interacting castsequences are discussed?
#1992SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Carnivean
Just wondering what DPS I could expect from a BM Hunter with partly SSC / TK gear?

Our hunters are always the worst ranged DPS class, they never get higher than 600 sometimes not even 550 DPS, and I can't belive that the sole reason for a class on a raidparty is to misdirect mobs...

We are halfway through SSC (Leo and Vashj left) and also halfway through TK (Solarian + Kael'thas left), so the gear shouldn't be a problem.

If you want to check their armory feel free to do so...:
1. Wether
2. Pfeilhagel <-- Should he respec to BM?!

Thank you for any comments / help...
#1993SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Issuez
BM vs MM in raids

I would like to start by saying I have allways seen MM as the true raid dps spec, but with the new buff to BM it has just got so much to offer. I have now tried both specs 41/20/0 and 10/42/9 in the Gruuls and with no gear change. BM does more dmg. I put it down to haste, and survivability, as much as people want to knock spirit bond, at the end of a run I have healed myself and my pet quite a substantial amount. Also to combat non pet friendly zones a paly keeping up seal of light is amazing for rogues dps warriors and pets.
When I got my Dragonspine Trophy (best trinket ever!) and put a Thundering Skyfire Diamond meta in my helm, I could see how I would get less of a bonus on my haste or "diminishing" returns, 30% of 2.10 sec is less bonus then 30% of 2.52, when haste trinket procs, and you get quick shots on top of that, you recieve less of a bonus again, and then pop rapid fire and watch do less of a bonus once more. However in saying this they dont allways proc at the same time, and if none have, then you have your base 20% haste from BM spec. Dragonspine does how ever proc from all shots, so the more you do the more chance it has to proc.

As MM in gruuls, my pet was useless and I had to heal it a lot more, I really did miss spirit bond for myself, and although my shots would hit for a lot more.. there were a lot less shots in general. Haste procs seemed way to far and few between to make up for it.

In response to the last persons question regarding shot rotation when haste procs, all of your shots will be effected by haste, so your steady shot is almost instant, and will never slow down your auto shot. Last but not least with all procs, meta, quickshots trinket and rapidfire I had a .83 sec auto attack, fun times. Another reason BM is a cut above MM is that Ferocious Inspiration stacks with other hunters FI. I am unsure of how many can stack but we have had three BM hunters in one group and almost a constant 9% dmg increase So untill Blizz either buff MM or nerf BM, I know the spec I am staying.

As far as the dps goes, I'm normally up the top of the meter overall (after the entire run). Trash mobs are scary with me and other BM hunters absolutely smashing all classes in dmg. The long boss fights though, depends a lot on what might happen to you, ie dmg you take, feign resists etc. But over all its close on the long fight with me in either 2nd or 3rd spot in dmg, but we have a lock or 2 that can bring in 1100 dps, so I have to work extremely hard to keep up. I will say this, MM seems a lot more relaxed to dps in boss fights, not as much to worry about, extra range really helps in gruuls too so you can stay near your preffered hidy hole and still shoot In Kara, I almost have no competition with other people, unless we take another BM hunter (yes even with mages and the aoe packs before Moroes).

All specs are great, it really depends on how you like to play, for me BM has made the game so much fun and my damage increase was huge. And soon after almost all hunters went BM, its nice to see hunters back up there on the charts.

A final note I would like to leave on, most casters are tailors, and their gear is quite overpowered. Wait till we are all in similar more equal gear and see how hunters rogues and other dps classes compare with our clothies =) As far as BM vs MM for raid dps, I can't go past BM.

P.S. make sure you res your pet if it dies, the 2 points in improved revive are a must! =X
My last run in Gruuls -- Wow Web Stats

Kyanah
Draenor
The Armory
#1994SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Rane
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Just wondering what DPS I could expect from a BM Hunter with partly SSC / TK gear?

Our hunters are always the worst ranged DPS class, they never get higher than 600 sometimes not even 550 DPS, and I can't belive that the sole reason for a class on a raidparty is to misdirect mobs...

We are halfway through SSC (Leo and Vashj left) and also halfway through TK (Solarian + Kael'thas left), so the gear shouldn't be a problem.

If you want to check their armory feel free to do so...:
1. Wether
2. Pfeilhagel <-- Should he respec to BM?!

Thank you for any comments / help...
Well, #1 doesn't have Mortal Shots and if he still doesn't rise above 600 DPS, we'd need a WWS to see what he does wrong. I'm expecting a wrong shot rotation and bad use of his pet, though.

#2 has a massive 34 hitrating and is a MM spec in PvP gear. Even with the best shot rotation in the world, that's not going to do him much good versus raidbosses with that low hit.
#1995SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Issuez View Post
When I got my Dragonspine Trophy (best trinket ever!) and put a Thundering Skyfire Diamond meta in my helm, I could see how I would get less of a bonus on my haste or "diminishing" returns, 30% of 2.10 sec is less bonus then 30% of 2.52, when haste trinket procs, and you get quick shots on top of that, you recieve less of a bonus again, and then pop rapid fire and watch do less of a bonus once more.
This is wrong, or at best ambiguous. Hastes are multiplied, thus better with more of them at the same time.

For simplicity, imagine only Auto Shots. Your Auto Shots deal exactly 400 damage, every single time, and has an unhasted speed of 4.0.
Without considering crits, etc, normal Auto Shot DPS = 100
15% Haste (quiver), Auto Shot DPS = 115 (15% increase from with no Haste)
20% Haste (Serpent's Swiftness), Auto Shot DPS = 120 (20% increase from with no Haste)
15% Haste (quiver) AND 20% Haste (Serpent's Swiftness), Auto Shot DPS = 138 (more than both Hastes on their own)

Of course, this becomes much more muddy when you add shot rotations, etc, but unless you have extreme amounts of Hastes, I wouldn't really say Haste is on diminishing returns, due to them being multiplied with each other the way they are.

Kyanah
Draenor
The Armory
There's no need to sign your posts. We see who you are from the profile on the left.
#1996SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kaber
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Just wondering what DPS I could expect from a BM Hunter with partly SSC / TK gear?

Our hunters are always the worst ranged DPS class, they never get higher than 600 sometimes not even 550 DPS, and I can't belive that the sole reason for a class on a raidparty is to misdirect mobs...

We are halfway through SSC (Leo and Vashj left) and also halfway through TK (Solarian + Kael'thas left), so the gear shouldn't be a problem.

If you want to check their armory feel free to do so...:
1. Wether
2. Pfeilhagel <-- Should he respec to BM?!

Thank you for any comments / help...
It would help to know what fights they don't break 600 on. Hydross is a very hunter unfriendly fight where I average 700 DPS. Lurker, gruul, and mag I always average well over 1050 DPS.

It sounds like they are a) not using a proper raid spec, b) not using proper shot rotations, or c) not using their pets properly and keeping them alive.

Looking at the first hunter's armory, his spec is horrendous for raid DPS. 41/20 is the standard raid DPS spec, because Mortal Shots (30% more damage on crits) is just that good.

Standard BM raiding spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
MM Raiding spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(if they have the Dragonspine trophy for the MM spec, have them switch Endurance training with Improved Aspect of the Hawk)

And to give them an excuse for poor personal DPS (while helping out the entire raid's DPS), this is a standard Survival Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Read through the last 10 or so posts above yours for the macros they are supposed to be using with a BM spec and check the MM/Survival threads for shot rotations for those builds.

Last edited by Kaber : 08/09/07 at 2:17 PM.
#1997SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Issuez View Post

P.S. make sure you res your pet if it dies, the 2 points in improved revive are a must! =X
My last run in Gruuls -- Wow Web Stats

Kyanah
Draenor
The Armory
Couple of things from looking at your log:

1 - You have a 178:116 Auto:Special ratio. That's horrible. If you got 50 more steady shots in there it would have meant almost 44K more damage (for a DPS of 910). Even hasted you should keep a 1:1 rotation all of the time.

2 - Use [Blue Ogre Brew] rather than Aspect of the Viper. Those potions are practically free.

3 - Great job on minimizing shatter, especially over 6 cycles.

You should shoot for 850-950 DPS in there, based on your gear. 1000+ should be possible with the right group make-up.
#1998SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Show some wws first. Personally i have tried 20/41 MM build and its still subpar to BM, even if its way better than MM/surv hybrid. I don't think you have realized how powerful serpent swiftness is. BMs are generally about 4-500 dps higher than equal skilled and geared MM.

And MM isn't even close to the burst dmg BM is capable off, its not even funny. Even PoM pyro mages gets a run for their money in terms of burst. not even 12k 300 resilience warriors stand up very long during my TBW + Rapid Fire +Blood Fury + Bloodlust Brooch with steady shot opener, MS, AS, often KC, FD before intercept then stead shot again then any auto shots i get during that time. Now if imp hawk procs too and don santos blessing (250 AP) which they usually do with the high procc rate of them its even more sex, Heck, once in a while my Hourglass of the unraveller procs too for 300 more AP. And i can do it all every 2 min...
no MM can be close to that burst, period.
While I respect your opinion, I have come to different conclusions that show, (from my own results), that both BM and MM are capable of excellent burst DPS. The differences become a little more clear the further you progress into TBC end-game and itemization as it stands. We all know that our tiered sets and even off-set items are very much tailored to MM builds, (curse blizz for not having diff set choices), and because of that, I've seen a variety of WWS results.

I was BM last night for the first few bosses in Black Temple to do some comparisons from being full Marksman the week prior with the same group make-up, gear, etc.

Last night as BM on HWL Naj'entus:
Wow Web Stats
1226 DPS

Last week as MM on HWL Naj'entus:
Wow Web Stats
1367 DPS
=================

Last night as BM on Supremus:
Wow Web Stats
1092 DPS

Last week as MM on Supremus:
Wow Web Stats
1009 DPS
=================

Last night as BM on Shade of Akama:
Loading...
2079 DPS

Last week as MM on Shade of Akama:
Loading...
2389 DPS
=================

So, my conclusions from my own performance is that for the most part, I don't see a huge difference at this point from the fights I have to go through every week. I'm just finding the biggest difference between BM and MM is how you're spending your time doing damage. Simply put, the amount of time you can DPS before a FD as BM is quite different from how it is as a MM due to the burst differences of MM and BM. The MM build puts out enormous crits that can really push you on Omen / KTM to the top quickly and you have to watch your ass extra careful not to pull it. Also, a resisted FD can hurt your DPS much more as a MM hunter than a BM hunter. Otherwise, if you're solid on your rotations with MM, it can keep up with, and in some cases, dare I say it...outperform.

Again, both are excellent in my opinion, and I enjoy all 3 trees for what they're worth. I just think your assumption of BM being 400-500 dps higher on average than MM depends greatly on where you're at in itemization. There is no question that from Kara to mid / early SSC/TK you'll see BM outperform MM by a large margin. However, later in the game, that margin shrinks quite a bit.

EDIT: I realize some of the fights above aren't an ideal comparison but they are most recent.
#1999SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Carnivean
Originally Posted by Rane View Post
Well, #1 doesn't have Mortal Shots and if he still doesn't rise above 600 DPS, we'd need a WWS to see what he does wrong. I'm expecting a wrong shot rotation and bad use of his pet, though.

#2 has a massive 34 hitrating and is a MM spec in PvP gear. Even with the best shot rotation in the world, that's not going to do him much good versus raidbosses with that low hit.
Wow Web Stats there you go

Already thank you for the help.
#2000SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kolusius
Well, he has about 400 more autoshots than specials to start, so thats a huge chunk of damage lost there. It seems like he keeps serpent sting up, the global cooldown would be better off used on a steady shot. His pet's damage seems extremely low, especially for a BM hunter. Scorpids don't usually perform too strongly on trash, but 11k poison and 2k melee is just odd. 11k is about 20 ticks of a full, non charged/buffed poison stack for me, and 2k melee is about 20 noncrit melee attacks.

A lot of raptor strikes, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he had them queued for sporebat charges. And I'll echo the sentiment that he should shift a couple points in his spec. 41/20/0 or something a little closer to that, mortal shots is a pretty huge talent to bypass for 2 points in the BM tree, the slaying talents, and a couple extra yards on his shots.
#2001SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Wow Web Stats there you go

Already thank you for the help.
Just looking at the Lurker kill (best fight in SSC for a Hunter):

1 - Shot rotation is bad, 145:100 Auto:Special. He needs to be firing more Steady Shots between Auto Shots.

2 - Don't let him use Serpent Sting. Ever.

3 - Since he has a pet (and named Scorpid, I'm assuming it one of those) he should actually, you know, use it. It does very little damage not attacking. Although that Spirit Bond was the equivalent of 3/4 of a healthstone.

4 - Spending time dismissing your pet (3 times!) isn't helping either.

5 - Tell him to avoid the spout. I'm amazed it didn't kill him.
#2002SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
This is wrong, or at best ambiguous. Hastes are multiplied, thus better with more of them at the same time.

For simplicity, imagine only Auto Shots. Your Auto Shots deal exactly 400 damage, every single time, and has an unhasted speed of 4.0.
Without considering crits, etc, normal Auto Shot DPS = 100
15% Haste (quiver), Auto Shot DPS = 115 (15% increase from with no Haste)
20% Haste (Serpent's Swiftness), Auto Shot DPS = 120 (20% increase from with no Haste)
15% Haste (quiver) AND 20% Haste (Serpent's Swiftness), Auto Shot DPS = 138 (more than both Hastes on their own)

Of course, this becomes much more muddy when you add shot rotations, etc, but unless you have extreme amounts of Hastes, I wouldn't really say Haste is on diminishing returns, due to them being multiplied with each other the way they are.


There's no need to sign your posts. We see who you are from the profile on the left.
I've actually looked a little closer into multiplicative/additive bonuses in general lately (since I've been running as a shadow priest) and noticed some things.

It looks like certain things are lumped together into categories and things within each category is added together. Then these categories are multiplied together to reach your final result. I suspect this is to save a little CPU time since multiplication in general is much more expensive than addition. The categories seem to be what you would expect, talents, buffs and mob debuffs.

So if I have:

Two talents that increase my damage by 10%
Three buffs, each that increase my damage by 1%, 3% and 10% respectively.
The mob is debuffed twice to take 2% and 5% more damage respectively.

You end up with:

(1 + 0.1 + 0.1) * (1 + 0.01 + 0.03 + 0.10) * (1 + 0.02 + 0.05) =
1.2 * 1.14 * 1.07 =
1.46376

Which is slightly different than:

1.1 * 1.1 * 1.01 * 1.03 * 1.1 * 1.02 * 1.05 =
1.48295

Again, I'm not positive about this but as a shadow priest I have:

Talents: +10%
Buffs: +15%
Debuffs: +10%, +5%, +13%

Pure multiplicative I would expect a 1.6510 damage multiplier
Additive/multiplicative mix I get a 1.6192 damage multiplier

Which I think makes up for some discrepancies I've seen between expected SW:P tics and what I actually see in game.

Last edited by Glaurong : 08/09/07 at 4:08 PM. Reason: Fixed formatting
#2003SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Illy
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
While I respect your opinion, I have come to different conclusions that show, (from my own results), that both BM and MM are capable of excellent burst DPS.
...
I was BM last night for the first few bosses in Black Temple to do some comparisons from being full Marksman the week prior with the same group make-up, gear, etc.
...
There is no question that from Kara to mid / early SSC/TK you'll see BM outperform MM by a large margin. However, later in the game, that margin shrinks quite a bit.
Howitzer, can you link the builds you were using as well as give some info on the rotation for MM and group composition you had?

My guild is at the level of progression you mention (just killed Vashj, halfyway through TK) and our WWS parses have just reinforced BM's superiority. The one other hunter in our raid was full MM up until a week or so ago and was usually doing about 75-80% of my dps, but now is doing comparable damage with a 0/31/30 build (which surprised me, as I hadn't heard much info about that combo on here).

This is the first time I've seen WWS reports of high end hunters doing that kind of dps who weren't BM, so very curious to read more about it.
#2004SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kolusius
Just to add on to what Cheeky said:

Looking at each boss individually, none of the kill attempts had his pet on them for more than a couple seconds. I think my pet will do more damage on one trash pack than his does over all of the boss attempts. As a beast mastery hunter, his pet is a substantial portion of his dps. None of those bosses pose any real threat to a BM hunter pet, aside from having to mend every 45-60 seconds or so. Hydross probably not at all. Morogrim after the earthquake. And Lurker on the occasion it takes some damage from the whirlwind. Make sure he teaches it avoidance if he hasn't. It makes keeping the pet alive a lot easier.

Also, like Cheeky said, his special:autoshot ratio needs to be closer to 1:1, and serpent sting is both a waste of mana and a debuff slot. Is he not using mana potions?
#2005SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Lactose
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I've actually looked a little closer into multiplicative/additive bonuses in general lately (since I've been running as a shadow priest) and noticed some things.

It looks like certain things are lumped together into categories and things within each category is added together. Then these categories are multiplied together to reach your final result. I suspect this is to save a little CPU time since multiplication in general is much more expensive than addition. The categories seem to be what you would expect, talents, buffs and mob debuffs.
I am 100% certain that Ferocious Inspiration and The Beast Within -- +3% and +10% damage, both showing up as a buff -- stack multiplicatively.
I'm unable to tell whether or not The Beast Within and Focused Fire stack multiplicatively or additively, my results are inconclusive (both would fit my tests). Ferocious Inspiration, however, does not stack additively with neither The Beast Within or Focused Fire.

EDIT: Regardless, all hastes I know of stack multiplicatively.

Last edited by Lactose : 08/09/07 at 4:56 PM.
#2006SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3lilwolfe
While we're examing some WWS logs... How can you figure out the number of autos to specials? Also, is Tidewalker a fight that will just automatically allow a hunter to really up their DPS as compared to other fights?

Here are two logs for Tidewalker kills:
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

Versus Lurker kill:
Wow Web Stats

Gruul Kill:
Wow Web Stats

I'm trying to aim for consistent dps of 900+ on fights, some nights I do very well, other nights I seem to completely fall apart. I'm trying to determine what issues are causing the lapses for me.

Is there anything blaring and obvious that I am doing wrong? Or what do I need to tweak?
#2007SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Cheeky
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
While we're examing some WWS logs... How can you figure out the number of autos to specials? Also, is Tidewalker a fight that will just automatically allow a hunter to really up their DPS as compared to other fights?

Here are two logs for Tidewalker kills:
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

Versus Lurker kill:
Wow Web Stats

Gruul Kill:
Wow Web Stats

I'm trying to aim for consistent dps of 900+ on fights, some nights I do very well, other nights I seem to completely fall apart. I'm trying to determine what issues are causing the lapses for me.

Is there anything blaring and obvious that I am doing wrong? Or what do I need to tweak?
Just add up the totals:
Tidewalker 1 - 230:148
Tidewalker 2 - 244:148
Lurker - 207:177
Gruul - 106:82

On Tidewalker you get the uber Scorpid stack and it stays up the whole fight. On Lurker and Gruul you can't do that as well.

As way of comparison, here is a link to our guild's logs. We are just behind you in progression it seems.

Last edited by Cheeky : 08/09/07 at 5:04 PM. Reason: Add Havoc's logs.
#2008SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by lilwolfe View Post
While we're examing some WWS logs... How can you figure out the number of autos to specials?
Wow Web Stats
Expand all.
Auto Shot: 174 hits, 56 crits (230 Auto Shots in total)
Steady Shot: 108+38 = 146
Arcane Shot: 1+1 = 2
Specials = 146+2 = 148

Auto Shot:Special
230:148

To me, this seems a bit low a ratio.
#2009SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3lilwolfe
Aha. That's it! I wasn't expanding and didn't see a number for crits (outside of crit% anyway).

So I should be trying to work more steady shots (or other specials as the occasion permits) into the rotation then. Will put that into practice tonight and see how it goes. Thanks for helping me find that.

Psst Cheeky, we're almost dressed alike too! You can be my evil twin brother... who is a troll.. Hehe! ^.^
#2010SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zurai
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I am 100% certain that Ferocious Inspiration and The Beast Within -- +3% and +10% damage, both showing up as a buff -- stack multiplicatively.
I'm unable to tell whether or not The Beast Within and Focused Fire stack multiplicatively or additively, my results are inconclusive (both would fit my tests). Ferocious Inspiration, however, does not stack additively with neither The Beast Within or Focused Fire.

EDIT: Regardless, all hastes I know of stack multiplicatively.
To my knowledge, FI stacks multiplicatively with all other % damage buffs. Actually, as far as I've been able to tell, all % damage buffs period stack multiplicatively, at least Hunter-relevant ones.

I'm sure there's something I've missed, though.
#2011SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
I haven't been able to find a post I heard somewhere here its said that the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness, (BT exalted trinket), was nerfed on PTR? Anyone know what the change was?
#2012SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Djinn
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I haven't been able to find a post I heard somewhere here its said that the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness, (BT exalted trinket), was nerfed on PTR? Anyone know what the change was?
What PTR version 2.2? i can check.
#2013SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Howitzer
Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
What PTR version 2.2? i can check.
The current 2.2 PTR version, yes. Right now it seems it has no internal cooldown at all and if there was an internal cooldown, it isn't linked to Tsunami like Hourglass is, (unless both proc at the same time, etc).

Last edited by Howitzer : 08/09/07 at 9:42 PM.
#2014SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
That's silly if they nerfed it. It was only marginally better than Bloodlust Brooch, and worse than Tsunami, DST, or Madness.
#2015SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
I have noticed an inconsistency whith my scorpid poison. On magtheridon, i specifically wait for the banish to occur before activating my poison and BW. I do it successfully 90% of the time, and for evey one of those tries, the poison stack nicely up to 5, and does damage accordingly, regarding the damage bonus from the banish. After a few ticks at 5 stacks (for about 800 ish) the poison drops down lower, as if something has triggered it.

Its odd, has anyone had the same issue?
#2016SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Krohl
Could be that the banish damage modifier only affect the ticks while he is actually banished, no? Since it's a property of him, not actually a modification to your pet's spelldamage bonus in any way.

Isn't that the same thing that would happen to poison ticks if that stormstrike is up from a shaman, that they bounce up and down?
#2017SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Krohl View Post
Could be that the banish damage modifier only affect the ticks while he is actually banished, no? Since it's a property of him, not actually a modification to your pet's spelldamage bonus in any way.

Isn't that the same thing that would happen to poison ticks if that stormstrike is up from a shaman, that they bounce up and down?
I believe this is correct. I've watched the Poison ticks suddenly jump during Banish and then fall back down. It's neat to see 1390 ticks.

I'll try and capture a log this weekend showing this, and verify for sure.
#2018SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I believe this is correct. I've watched the Poison ticks suddenly jump during Banish and then fall back down. It's neat to see 1390 ticks.
I can verify this. I don't have a WWS but I've done Magtheridon multiple times with a Scorpid and am 100% sure this is how it works. Magtheridon takes extra damage when he is banished and Scorpid Poison damage will be multiplied during that time regardless of when it was applied.

Generally speaking, debuffs on the mob that increase damage taken will temporarily increase the damage of Scorpid Poison regardless of when it was applied. For example, it works the same way on Essence of Desire when the Deaden debuff is on (increasing damage to her by 100%). The poison will do additional damage during this time regardless of when it was applied, then return to normal after debuff fades.
#2019SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Younsan
Dps drop by 200 between Gruul and lurker, need help

Hi there,

I’m a long time reader, but this is my first post.

I’m seeking some advises for my dps, cause we just started SSC (the lurker below) and I’m stuck between 620-690dps while I’ was toping the meter at Gruul(down), Magtheridon (trys) and Void reaver (trys) between 830-880.
Facts:
1- I’ve did the lurker below trys with a 3/21/37 instead of my 5/20/36, cause was trying arena.
2- Latency 480-600 (this week), normally 250-300
3- Castesequance Steady, Auto
4- Wind Serpent with Avoidance 2 and Cobra reflexes
5- The first night group setup : Rouge, 2 Wars, Feral.
(Wow Web Stats)
6- The second night group setup : Hunt (TSA), 2 Warlocks, Paladin
(Loading...)
Thks in advance
#2020SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
I can verify this. I don't have a WWS but I've done Magtheridon multiple times with a Scorpid and am 100% sure this is how it works. Magtheridon takes extra damage when he is banished and Scorpid Poison damage will be multiplied during that time regardless of when it was applied.

Generally speaking, debuffs on the mob that increase damage taken will temporarily increase the damage of Scorpid Poison regardless of when it was applied. For example, it works the same way on Essence of Desire when the Deaden debuff is on (increasing damage to her by 100%). The poison will do additional damage during this time regardless of when it was applied, then return to normal after debuff fades.


Makes sense, as this is what happens with warlocks (dots) and +spell damage "every 2 minute" trinkets.
#2021SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
Originally Posted by Younsan View Post
Hi there,

I’m a long time reader, but this is my first post.

I’m seeking some advises for my dps, cause we just started SSC (the lurker below) and I’m stuck between 620-690dps while I’ was toping the meter at Gruul(down), Magtheridon (trys) and Void reaver (trys) between 830-880.
Facts:
1- I’ve did the lurker below trys with a 3/21/37 instead of my 5/20/36, cause was trying arena.
2- Latency 480-600 (this week), normally 250-300
3- Castesequance Steady, Auto
4- Wind Serpent with Avoidance 2 and Cobra reflexes
5- The first night group setup : Rouge, 2 Wars, Feral.
(Wow Web Stats)
6- The second night group setup : Hunt (TSA), 2 Warlocks, Paladin
(Loading...)
Thks in advance

Hi there, i'm sure other people could answer this in more detail, but i can say a couple of things.
1) A hybrid spec is probably the least effective out of the 4 raiding specs. Your gear needs to be excellent for this to work. Maybe you could try BM? a 40/21/0 spec is still really good in arenas, giving you excellent boost damage with the Bestial wrath and the beast within. Its also the best spec for raiding (until you can get some item level 156 stuff!)

2) The castsequence, dont forget your arcane shots and multishots! They both do more damage than a steady shot. Ideally, use these primarily, and only use steady shots to 'fill in the gaps' when the other two are on cooldown. (Although this will burn man quickly)

3) Cobra reflexes is nice, but its tailored more for a BM spec, because its made so that BM hunters can keep a better upkeep fro FI. However, it doesn't really matter, I'm sure somebody else has commented in this thread about it, with theorycraft to back it up, so you may want to search around and see if its actually useful for your spec.


In my opinion, the best thing you could do is respec to Beast mastery, it will be better for your latency too.

Your latency is quite high, so it would be very difficult to pull off a 1:1.5 shot rotation. A BM spec will be much more forgiving, and will let you have a 1:1 shot rotation, which your gear will be a large DPS upgrade.

Probably tell your other hunter friend the same thing. If you can ask him to respec to BM too, then you can have 2xFIs running in the raid. This will make your group have a 6% damage increase (for the time they are up). What my guild does is bung 3x BM hunters in with a shadow priest and a resto shaman. The shaman uses totems to boost the DPS of the pets+hunters, whilst the hunters help boost the shadowpriests damage by 9% (when all FIs are up), therefore giving more mana back to the hunters. It also means we can nuke our butts off, and pets are kept alive by the shadowpriest's group healing and your own.

Go back through the other 80 pages of this thread. It will tell you everything in much more detail.
#2022SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Younsan
Thanks, for the replay,

Deleted

Last edited by Younsan : 08/11/07 at 8:12 AM.
#2023SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Younsan View Post
Thanks, for the replay,

Just to add this :

1- I'm having a Hybrid spec, cause i m lacking hit gear, and mana regen gear.
2- I've tested gruul with 41/20, did around 950dps, but i'need more hit gear before going back as BM.
2- I'm using castsequence steady, auto on a macro, but i m also using my arcane and multi manually,( WWS sohws that i'think)
3- Still unable to have a shamy or a shadwo in my group.


I'm looking for more experienced raiders, to tell me if its possible to pull out more dps with my gear/group setup.
I really don't want to sound like a dick, but this is exactly the kind of thing we don't want in this thread. If you don't have the time or inclination to read through all the (admittedly massive) information in the first 80 pages, why should we increase the size of this thread to hold your hand through this issue.

The short answer is that we can all increase our DPS, on every fight. No one is perfect. This thread is about anaylzing the mechanics and information about BM Hunter raiding in general, not specific to an individual. All you are doing is adding more girth to this thread without bringing anything new to the table.

Again, no disrespect, but I use this thread to educate myself. I don't want to know how you socketed you T4 helm unless it's new and beneficial information no one has posted before.
#2024SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Rane
Originally Posted by Carnivean View Post
Wow Web Stats there you go

Already thank you for the help.
*editted*

Actually like the posters above said, this isn't really the thread for such things. I've pm'd you what I had posted here.
#2025SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Ezzy
deleted.

Last edited by Ezzy : 08/10/07 at 10:31 PM. Reason: deleted as useless.
#2026SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
While I respect your opinion, I have come to different conclusions that show, (from my own results), that both BM and MM are capable of excellent burst DPS. The differences become a little more clear the further you progress into TBC end-game and itemization as it stands. We all know that our tiered sets and even off-set items are very much tailored to MM builds, (curse blizz for not having diff set choices), and because of that, I've seen a variety of WWS results.

I was BM last night for the first few bosses in Black Temple to do some comparisons from being full Marksman the week prior with the same group make-up, gear, etc.

Last night as BM on HWL Naj'entus:
Wow Web Stats
1226 DPS

Last week as MM on HWL Naj'entus:
Wow Web Stats
1367 DPS
=================

Last night as BM on Supremus:
Wow Web Stats
1092 DPS

Last week as MM on Supremus:
Wow Web Stats
1009 DPS
=================

Last night as BM on Shade of Akama:
Loading...
2079 DPS

Last week as MM on Shade of Akama:
Loading...
2389 DPS
=================

So, my conclusions from my own performance is that for the most part, I don't see a huge difference at this point from the fights I have to go through every week. I'm just finding the biggest difference between BM and MM is how you're spending your time doing damage. Simply put, the amount of time you can DPS before a FD as BM is quite different from how it is as a MM due to the burst differences of MM and BM. The MM build puts out enormous crits that can really push you on Omen / KTM to the top quickly and you have to watch your ass extra careful not to pull it. Also, a resisted FD can hurt your DPS much more as a MM hunter than a BM hunter. Otherwise, if you're solid on your rotations with MM, it can keep up with, and in some cases, dare I say it...outperform.

Again, both are excellent in my opinion, and I enjoy all 3 trees for what they're worth. I just think your assumption of BM being 400-500 dps higher on average than MM depends greatly on where you're at in itemization. There is no question that from Kara to mid / early SSC/TK you'll see BM outperform MM by a large margin. However, later in the game, that margin shrinks quite a bit.

EDIT: I realize some of the fights above aren't an ideal comparison but they are most recent.
Oh, i don't disagree with you, I was more pointing out to the guy who thought MM was much better burst pvp dps when i strongly disagreed. I know very well BM scales horribly bad, i don't compare gear level at MT/BT level since, well, no one's there practically. I'm much more interested where the big part of raiding hunters are and thats just above Kara to below Vashj/Kael. And there the difference is around 3-400 DPS. If people here claim MM is close too or above BM at that kind of gear level about 1-2% of all hunters are at then sure, ill take your word for it and account that to the superior scaling of MM.
But personally i find it rather uninteresting how speccs compare in gear level most hunters doesn't have available, just like i don't really care how speccs compare if you would use lvl 60 gear.

I still firmly believe MM is worse than BM in raiding, MM is a pvp specc and BM has bigger burst dps (albeit in longer cd). But ofc every rule has exceptions so you have to apply it to your own situation(raid progress, arena team setup etc etc).
#2027SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
Don't forget that alot of people steer away from MM because with any slight lag, or peak in latency, it can have drastic affects on your damage. Its the difference between a 1.15 rotation and a 1:1 rotation. If you can only properly do a 1:1 rotation with MM because fo your latency, then spec BM and get that damage boost.

But i have to disagree with you when you say MM is for pvp. I think its intended to be a raid spec, it clearly shouts out raid spec in my opinion, its just that BM is better, for ~BT geared hunters.

I'm convinced that 'armor penetration' stats have a big impact on this discussion, because i don't think pets get any share in this stat. And also as gear gets better, you get more crit. MM with lots of crit is excellent, its the best of both worlds (whilst in earlier instances, you can't really achieve good AP and crit)
#2028SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Phanuel
I think MM is a PVP spec looking at the tools it gives you. Scatter is wholly useless against raid bosses, and silencing shot lacks a 1 second school interrupt to function as such.
#2029SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shaile
Originally Posted by Zogeth View Post
Don't forget that alot of people steer away from MM because with any slight lag, or peak in latency, it can have drastic affects on your damage. Its the difference between a 1.15 rotation and a 1:1 rotation. If you can only properly do a 1:1 rotation with MM because fo your latency, then spec BM and get that damage boost.

But i have to disagree with you when you say MM is for pvp. I think its intended to be a raid spec, it clearly shouts out raid spec in my opinion, its just that BM is better, for ~BT geared hunters.

I'm convinced that 'armor penetration' stats have a big impact on this discussion, because i don't think pets get any share in this stat. And also as gear gets better, you get more crit. MM with lots of crit is excellent, its the best of both worlds (whilst in earlier instances, you can't really achieve good AP and crit)
How can you call a specc that its 21 talent and end tree talents are pure pvp talents intended to be a raid specc?

Last edited by Shaile : 08/12/07 at 7:49 PM.
#2030SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Neruse
How can you call a specc that its 21 talent and end tree talents are pure pvp talents intended to be a raid specc?
Intimidation (21 points), and TBW (41 points) are both excellent pvp talents, although the latter has certain pve use (stacking scorpid poisons).

Deterrance (21 points) Wyvern Sting (31 points), and Readiness (41 points) are all pvp talents, although Readiness has some pve use (limited).

Conclusion: All hunter trees are actually pvp trees, just because the 21/31/41 pointers are most useful in pvp?

/sarcasm


The meat of the marks tree is in the "filler" talents.
#2031SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
How can you call a specc that its 21 talent and end tree talents are pure pvp talents intended to be a raid specc?
For the sake of not taking this thread offtopic even more, we can continue this discussion via PM. If you want to, pm me.

Back on topic for this thread,

Where is a good point to switch to MM for a raiding build? As discussed in the haste thread, MM clearly over takes BM at some point, but for me, this threshold seems a bit blurry.
#2032SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Neruse View Post
Intimidation (21 points), and TBW (41 points) are both excellent pvp talents, although the latter has certain pve use (stacking scorpid poisons).

Deterrance (21 points) Wyvern Sting (31 points), and Readiness (41 points) are all pvp talents, although Readiness has some pve use (limited).

Conclusion: All hunter trees are actually pvp trees, just because the 21/31/41 pointers are most useful in pvp?

/sarcasm


The meat of the marks tree is in the "filler" talents.
Ok, maybe i was abit unclear. But MM is the premier PvP specc not only because its 21 and 41 talent are superior pvp talents over BMs and Survs 21(31) and 41 talents, but because stuff like imp stings and the increased survivability from 20 points in surv. BM and surv aint bad pvp speccs MM is just superior.
#2033SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Zogeth View Post
For the sake of not taking this thread offtopic even more, we can continue this discussion via PM. If you want to, pm me.

Back on topic for this thread,

Where is a good point to switch to MM for a raiding build? As discussed in the haste thread, MM clearly over takes BM at some point, but for me, this threshold seems a bit blurry.
Those evaluations were made with a bugged version of the spreadsheet that was double dipping the master marksman bonus. I think Kaber is going to revisit his tests when the spreadsheet is fixed, so I would hold off thinking too hard about this yet.
#2034SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Avellyr
Originally Posted by Howitzer
While I respect your opinion, I have come to different conclusions that show, (from my own results), that both BM and MM are capable of excellent burst DPS. The differences become a little more clear the further you progress into TBC end-game and itemization as it stands. We all know that our tiered sets and even off-set items are very much tailored to MM builds, (curse blizz for not having diff set choices), and because of that, I've seen a variety of WWS results.

I was BM last night for the first few bosses in Black Temple to do some comparisons from being full Marksman the week prior with the same group make-up, gear, etc.

<WWS stuff>
I think that the fact that you aren't using a scorpid is a big factor in these comparisons. The 20% increased damage, 4% extra hit, and the opportunity to roll a BW/Bloodlust poison tick are huge, which means that scorpids will not only do more damage as both specs, but they'll scale better with BM spec than other pets. Note: I'm not saying you should get a scorpid. I hate how unbalanced pet choices are right now, and I would much rather be using my wind serpent that I've been using since MC. However unfortunate and broken it may be though, the only real choice if you're going to do comparisons with a BM spec is a scorpid. I guarantee you would reach different results if you got a scorpid rolling a cooldown tick for the whole fight on your parses.
#2035SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Wulfsblood
I've found this thread immensely useful. I've always loved BM, but I didn't think it was raid-viable. I switched from a 5/20/36 spec to a 41/20/0 spec at the weekend, made a decent 1:1 rotation macro and even with a Ravager, my DPS shot up by about 200. I'm training up a Scorpid to try it out (I seem to have Rank 4 Scorpid Poison in my training book from an earlier tame).
#2036SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Carlaena
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I run about ~100 ms latency, but I don't use a macro. I also tend to not spam KC a whole lot, since it is inferior DPM for me to Steady Shot. By anticipating lag and starting my Steady a little early I can get by without much clipping at all. I'm sure some is there, but not enough for me to notice it in overall damage totals and DPS.
Could you explain for me the most efficient way to anticipate and react to lag during a quick rotation. I've recently moved from sorrens timers to quartz, after reading some recommendations on it. I'm not sure, in practice, how I modify my reactions to the lag bar, in order to get the most out of my cycle. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm finding that if quickshots, rapidfire both go off, i may as well do a /sit for 15 seconds, for all the good it does me. I'm starting to doubt the viability of combining Don Santos', Crystalweave Cape, +10 glove haste and Serpents Swiftness especially when quick shots and rapid fire go off using a manual rotation.
#2037SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Those evaluations were made with a bugged version of the spreadsheet that was double dipping the master marksman bonus. I think Kaber is going to revisit his tests when the spreadsheet is fixed, so I would hold off thinking too hard about this yet.
The latest, posted version has corrected this.

Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
Could you explain for me the most efficient way to anticipate and react to lag during a quick rotation. I've recently moved from sorrens timers to quartz, after reading some recommendations on it. I'm not sure, in practice, how I modify my reactions to the lag bar, in order to get the most out of my cycle. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm finding that if quickshots, rapidfire both go off, i may as well do a /sit for 15 seconds, for all the good it does me. I'm starting to doubt the viability of combining Don Santos', Crystalweave Cape, +10 glove haste and Serpents Swiftness especially when quick shots and rapid fire go off using a manual rotation.
I don't really use Rapid Fire anymore unless I am completely out of mana. In terms of timing the shots, I start the steady cast when there is about 0.1 left on the auto shot cast bar. This takes some practice, and I still occasionally hit it too soon and delay the auto shot by an extra ~1.8s. The best place to practice this in on Dr. Boom. You'll find after a few minutes you pick up a rhythm for it. The Quick Shots pattern is just slightly accelerated from there.
#2038SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shaile
Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
Could you explain for me the most efficient way to anticipate and react to lag during a quick rotation. I've recently moved from sorrens timers to quartz, after reading some recommendations on it. I'm not sure, in practice, how I modify my reactions to the lag bar, in order to get the most out of my cycle. Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm finding that if quickshots, rapidfire both go off, i may as well do a /sit for 15 seconds, for all the good it does me. I'm starting to doubt the viability of combining Don Santos', Crystalweave Cape, +10 glove haste and Serpents Swiftness especially when quick shots and rapid fire go off using a manual rotation.
Its still doable, you cant just do it between EVERY autoshot, you can still spam arcane shot and multishot, and use steady shot every other autoshot or so. Remember also steady shots casting time get lowered by the same amount so it will always fit in between autos if it did for you before haste proccs.
#2039SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Jerem
I use Rapid Fire together with other haste effects in a "I need to do something else" situation.
If, for some reason, my pet took a lot of damage, and I'll need to heal more than once, if I'll need to refresh Hunter's Mark, Scorpid sting (if the tank needs it), etc. I just hit Rapid Fire, add a few haste effects (drums, haste pot, Abacus), so that my weapon speed allows as many shot /sec as my auto/steady rotation does (around 1.1~1.2), and stop non-instant specials.
I'm then free to throw all the instants I might need (mend pet, HM, stings, arcane, multi), without actually feeling like "losing" DPS.
It might be just an impression, but I don't feel like "wasting" GCDs that could have been used for direct damages when I do that.

Very situational, however, I agree.
Rest of the time, I find myself better off not using RF until OOM, as Cheeky said.
#2040SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Wraith40k
Mixed raiding & PVP -bow selection

I have (through the excellent guidance here) specced BM and have gotten the shot rotations down, my DPS has gone up into the typical 800 range throughout Karazhan (not a good standard I know). I am using sorrlens timers now but am moving to quartz- currently my clipping is reasonably rare.

My guild is starting on Gruul, and I also PVP/Arena. I am using the Attumen Xbow currently and finishing up my Arena Gear.

My questions:
What bow should I be 'targeting' to use for both PVP and PVE?

Does the S2 xbow have any use? (I am distracted by its shiney DPS numbers- but from reading here I don't see any PVE scenario that it is worth it- but would it be better in PVP?)

Would I see a big jump by moving to Don Santo's rifle in my PVE dps? In Kara? In Gruul's?
#2041SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Osse
Has anyone with ~200 haste rating tried out 7/20/34 build yet?

I'll probably take just about every haste item from Hyjal and BT in hope that they change hunter mechanics a bit but it would be nice to see what kind of results you can get. =)
#2042SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Spiker
Originally Posted by Wraith40k View Post
I have (through the excellent guidance here) specced BM and have gotten the shot rotations down, my DPS has gone up into the typical 800 range throughout Karazhan (not a good standard I know). I am using sorrlens timers now but am moving to quartz- currently my clipping is reasonably rare.

My guild is starting on Gruul, and I also PVP/Arena. I am using the Attumen Xbow currently and finishing up my Arena Gear.

My questions:
What bow should I be 'targeting' to use for both PVP and PVE?

Does the S2 xbow have any use? (I am distracted by its shiney DPS numbers- but from reading here I don't see any PVE scenario that it is worth it- but would it be better in PVP?)

Would I see a big jump by moving to Don Santo's rifle in my PVE dps? In Kara? In Gruul's?
If you want to get a bow purely for PvP I would suggest the s1, because it costs less, but does about the same dmg as far as PvP goes.

Also, Don Santo's would defiantly do a good amount more dps than steelhawk. It has a better speed and the proc is worth a lot of attack power. You won't have to worry about upgrades for it either.
#2043SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Ok, maybe i was abit unclear. But MM is the premier PvP specc not only because its 21 and 41 talent are superior pvp talents over BMs and Survs 21(31) and 41 talents, but because stuff like imp stings and the increased survivability from 20 points in surv. BM and surv aint bad pvp speccs MM is just superior.
Says who? Taking your personal opinion and touting it as proven fact is leading you down a very slippery slope. This topic has nothing to do with this thread. Let me remind you that this is the "BM Raiding Hunters in 2.1 Theorycrafting" thread. Take your PvP talent discussion to PMs or go start a new thread.
#2044SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Its still doable, you cant just do it between EVERY autoshot, you can still spam arcane shot and multishot, and use steady shot every other autoshot or so. Remember also steady shots casting time get lowered by the same amount so it will always fit in between autos if it did for you before haste proccs.
That last sentence isn't technically correct. Keep in mind there is a .5 second casting time on autoshot. As haste increases, the difference between the autoshot speed and steady cast time will shrink to less than .5 seconds, at which point it will be impossible to thread a steady shot between two autoshots without delaying. How much haste this requires in practice depends on the unhasted firing speed of your weapon.

Also, has nobody else tried simply spamming steady shot while under rapid fire? Assuming 2.7 weapon and .2s lag, the rotation looks something like this:


0.0 auto fires
0.2 start steady shot / GCD start
0.98 steady fires
1.48 auto fires
1.7 GCD ends
1.9 start steady shot / GCD start
2.68 steady fires
3.18 auto fires
3.4 GCD ends
3.6 start steady shot / GCD start
4.38 steady fires
4.88 auto fires
etc

Notice that our steady shots and autoshots are both occuring every 1.7 seconds (GCD + lag). Also notice that the autshots always fall in between the steady shot and the GCD ending. This means that it is literally impossible to fully clobber an autoshot by using another steady shot too soon. The GCD won't let you screw it up. Obviously one can replace any of the steadies with an arcane or multi, with the same effect.

Firing 1 special and 1 auto ever 1.78 seconds is about 10% better than firing 1 special and 1 auto every 1.96 seconds, which was the case before rapid fire was used. With the added bonus that it is almost impossible to screw up, it seems like it might still be worth using rapid fire.

If you know of a better rotation under rapid fire, please share it. I haven't been able to think of one.
#2045SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
FYI on the PTR, 2-piece Tier 5 currently reads:

Heals your pet for 15% of the damage you deal.

However, as of a couple days ago it was bugged and did not work for autoshot. If this is fixed, then the bonus is a welcome buff to an already-good set bonus that makes BM far more viable in raiding, because you have to worry about your pet less.

edit: As a quick theorycraft, this would heal your pet for something like 150 hp per second in Black Temple, perhaps 100 per second in T5 instances. By contrast the old version (2.1) healed it about 30hp per second.
#2046SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by svengarlic View Post
That last sentence isn't technically correct. Keep in mind there is a .5 second casting time on autoshot. As haste increases, the difference between the autoshot speed and steady cast time will shrink to less than .5 seconds, at which point it will be impossible to thread a steady shot between two autoshots without delaying. How much haste this requires in practice depends on the unhasted firing speed of your weapon.
I don't know if anyone has conclusive proof that the 0.5s cast time of autoshot is unaffected by haste. We have inferred it's existence based on what we see in combat logs, and how we can infinitely delay auto shot through steady spam. I'm guessing without some help from the Blizzard UI we'll never really know it's true behavior, since you're talking about very small periods of time relative to a lot of people's latency.
#2047SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
I parsed through last nights raid log for one of our hunters

Wow Web Stats

There were 253 Auto shots fired after a Steady Shot during the Lurker Kill, 65 of which occurred under 0.5s after the Steady Shot landed. (and of these 40 occured under 0.4s after the Steady landed)

Talut is a haste based Beast Master (Sorry I wasn't in the raid last night on my hunter, Talut, but thanks for the data).

There does not seem to be much point in arguing around whether 0.5s is unaffected, its more of a question of HOW the delay is calculated.

EDIT: Added detail on shots under 0.4s delay between end of steady and auto shot.
#2048SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
I parsed through last nights raid log for one of our hunters

Wow Web Stats

There were 253 Auto shots fired after a Steady Shot during the Lurker Kill, 65 of which occurred under 0.5s after the Steady Shot landed. (and of these 40 occured under 0.4s after the Steady landed)

Talut is a haste based Beast Master (Sorry I wasn't in the raid last night on my hunter, Talut, but thanks for the data).

There does not seem to be much point in arguing around whether 0.5s is unaffected, its more of a question of HOW the delay is calculated.

EDIT: Added detail on shots under 0.4s delay between end of steady and auto shot.
I'm pretty sure there is a degree of jitter in log stamps. I've done multiple thousands of shots Boom tests of just AFK auto shot, and the times there vary too*. I guess I wasn't clear in saying why this would be practically impossible to figure out on our own.

* - This is from memory, I am not 100% positive of this, but I will test in the next few days to make sure.
#2049SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Sigea
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
I parsed through last nights raid log for one of our hunters

Wow Web Stats

There were 253 Auto shots fired after a Steady Shot during the Lurker Kill, 65 of which occurred under 0.5s after the Steady Shot landed. (and of these 40 occured under 0.4s after the Steady landed)

Talut is a haste based Beast Master (Sorry I wasn't in the raid last night on my hunter, Talut, but thanks for the data).

There does not seem to be much point in arguing around whether 0.5s is unaffected, its more of a question of HOW the delay is calculated.

EDIT: Added detail on shots under 0.4s delay between end of steady and auto shot.
I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here but:

This has nothing to do with the delay for Autoshot, but I did notice that he was firing Arcane Shot immediately after Autoshot and then casting Steady Shot. That gimps his DPS greatly, if you do the math on the rotations shown there, you see a 4+ second gap between Autoshots. Autoshot will fire during the GCD so he would benefit to use Steady Shot then Arcane Shot.
#2050SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3lilwolfe
Question for scorpid users. Do you hold off on the poison until a proc occurs or do you just go with what you've got when you got it?

I have Hourglass of the Unraveller and Bloodlust Brooch as my primary trinkets. I love when I can time the process after an hourglass proc, but it just doesn't happen enough for my liking.

So, I normally wait for FI to pop, then pop the Brooch, Bloodfury and Bestial Wrath, then start in on the poison ticks. They top out at anywhere between 520-790 depending on group make up, but more often than not, it's on the lower end of that spectrum.

Also, as we're starting to close in on finishing SSC and delve into TK more, I was curious what ranged weapon upgrades should I be aiming for? Currently I am using the Wolfslayer Rifle - and I'm just not real sure which weapons will be an upgrade for me based on their weapon speed and stats.
#2051SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3svengarlic
I have always asumed that the autoshot and multi shot hidden cast times aren't affected by haste based on how slow multi shot "feels" at high levels of haste. I understand that isn't a very good test.

I can think of one test if you assume that the multi and auto cast times are treated the same way. Use abacus and rapid fire at the same time with quick shots or DST up. Then try to cast a multi-shot as close as possible to the end of an auto timer. If both the multi and auto cast times are hasted, it should be like .35 seconds before the auto casts. If they aren't hasted it should be a full second.

It probably doesn't matter if the autoshot hidden cast time is hasted or not. For me at least the difference in the hidden cast time will be less than the variance in my latency or reaction time.
#2052SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Motto
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Has anyone with ~200 haste rating tried out 7/20/34 build yet?

I'll probably take just about every haste item from Hyjal and BT in hope that they change hunter mechanics a bit but it would be nice to see what kind of results you can get. =)
I've been using a 0/38/23 for the past week to check things out, how high rAP and crit go togather with haste. Got every haste item except crafted bracers (still waiting for the pattern to drop or hearts be available for crafting the leather ones) and crafted shoulders (not LW).

Went like that in MH and BT and i have to admit, it's alot better than oldschool MM / Surv specs with non-haste gear, but it still doesn't cut it.

Yeah, the numbers are fine and all, especially with a little added passive armor penetration, but compared to my other hunter guildie, who's still rolling as BM, i'm a tad low, us being neck to neck usually when both BM.

Might be because of his scorpid, i've done all these while using a cat. Just an example that comes to mind, i was at around 100k damage done behind him on the Council fight just yesterday night.

And rotation wise, it seems a bit worse than with no haste at all. It's not slow enough to fit 2 specials, nor is it fast enough to allow and optimal 1:1 cycle. Either you go with the slack that happens, or clip every other auto or so for an instant to go off, which seems indeed to render better output, from my observations at least.

Needless to say i went back to BM last night :P

And as a side note, while haste items might be tempting and sound interesting for non-passive haste specs, all i can say is i'm a machine gun with 32.84% haste (SS+12.84% from the items), and still having no issues in keeping a good rotation going, even when quickshots procs. Rapid fire + quickshots or even bloodlust, well that's another story :P

So i really think in spite of what it would seam, adding haste items to a hasted BM build is better than doing so for another.

Wall of text over :P
#2053SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Motto View Post
I've been using a 0/38/23 for the past week to check things out, how high rAP and crit go togather with haste. Got every haste item except crafted bracers (still waiting for the pattern to drop or hearts be available for crafting the leather ones) and crafted shoulders (not LW).

Went like that in MH and BT and i have to admit, it's alot better than oldschool MM / Surv specs with non-haste gear, but it still doesn't cut it.

Yeah, the numbers are fine and all, especially with a little added passive armor penetration, but compared to my other hunter guildie, who's still rolling as BM, i'm a tad low, us being neck to neck usually when both BM.

Might be because of his scorpid, i've done all these while using a cat. Just an example that comes to mind, i was at around 100k damage done behind him on the Council fight just yesterday night.

And rotation wise, it seems a bit worse than with no haste at all. It's not slow enough to fit 2 specials, nor is it fast enough to allow and optimal 1:1 cycle. Either you go with the slack that happens, or clip every other auto or so for an instant to go off, which seems indeed to render better output, from my observations at least.

Needless to say i went back to BM last night :P

And as a side note, while haste items might be tempting and sound interesting for non-passive haste specs, all i can say is i'm a machine gun with 32.84% haste (SS+12.84% from the items), and still having no issues in keeping a good rotation going, even when quickshots procs. Rapid fire + quickshots or even bloodlust, well that's another story :P

So i really think in spite of what it would seam, adding haste items to a hasted BM build is better than doing so for another.

Wall of text over :P
I believe where MM over-takes BM is when the Dragonspine Trophy is added in. The 30% haste aparently has something along the lines of 3-4 PPM. That one trinket alone is the single most powerful item in the entire game. I have been analyzing haste builds, and looking over WWS parses of a MM using the 15/43/3 build and the DST then comparing to the other BM hunters in the raid. They are all essentially neck-and-neck with no haste gear, only the MM has the trinket and it is the sole reason for him matching and/or beating their DPS in every log I have seen. He uses a 1:1 rotation with multi mixed in as far as I can tell, and the hastes are up more often than not.
#2054SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I'm pretty sure there is a degree of jitter in log stamps. I've done multiple thousands of shots Boom tests of just AFK auto shot, and the times there vary too*. I guess I wasn't clear in saying why this would be practically impossible to figure out on our own.

* - This is from memory, I am not 100% positive of this, but I will test in the next few days to make sure.
I've done some pretty extensive parsing and this is definately the case. I've seen enough variation/jitter that the timestamps have to be generated on the client side.

Edit: In practice this means you cannot treat combat log timestamps as absolutes. Each one has a variable amount of latency added in to it.
#2055SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Uthilas
Hey Howitzer, I was looking at your WWS spreadsheets. I was curious as what shot rotations you were using for both MM and BM. Please spell which shots you were using. I am not familiar with the 1:1:5 or whatever that stuff means. Explaining what that means would rock to. Anyway, thanks in advance.
#2056SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3senior toasted bread
Good info on shot rotations, but please use the search function.

[Hunter] Shot Rotation Illustrated
#2057SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Tix
This is comment on the macros I saw back further in the thread...

someone had a castseq/KC macro for pet alive and pet dead..

/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

this syntax takes care of both cases. if your pet is dead or not out your pet does not have a target and thus the line is not evaluated.
#2058SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Motto View Post
And rotation wise, it seems a bit worse than with no haste at all. It's not slow enough to fit 2 specials, nor is it fast enough to allow and optimal 1:1 cycle. Either you go with the slack that happens, or clip every other auto or so for an instant to go off, which seems indeed to render better output, from my observations at least.

Needless to say i went back to BM last night :P

And as a side note, while haste items might be tempting and sound interesting for non-passive haste specs, all i can say is i'm a machine gun with 32.84% haste (SS+12.84% from the items), and still having no issues in keeping a good rotation going, even when quickshots procs. Rapid fire + quickshots or even bloodlust, well that's another story :P

So i really think in spite of what it would seam, adding haste items to a hasted BM build is better than doing so for another.

Wall of text over :P
I agree completely. I have 3 haste items but only use 1 right now because it really does mess up a 3 shot rotation. The only way I see haste truly benefiting a Hunter is with a pure BM spec and SS/AS rotation.
#2059SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I agree completely. I have 3 haste items but only use 1 right now because it really does mess up a 3 shot rotation. The only way I see haste truly benefiting a Hunter is with a pure BM spec and SS/AS rotation.
Full MM with a DST and iAotH turns into an absolute monster when hasted using a 1:1 rotation. Of course its all theory craft right now, but parsing logs of Afterlife, Thott matches his DPS up almost exactly with Candice and Fritti on WWS, and he doesn't have any of the haste gear yet. Just the DST, iAotH, and a 15/43/3 build.
#2060SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Howitzer
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
Full MM with a DST and iAotH turns into an absolute monster when hasted using a 1:1 rotation. Of course its all theory craft right now, but parsing logs of Afterlife, Thott matches his DPS up almost exactly with Candice and Fritti on WWS, and he doesn't have any of the haste gear yet. Just the DST, iAotH, and a 15/43/3 build.
I can handle rapid fire + IAoTH just fine. However, if I mixed in max haste items + rapid fire + IAoTH, I have some issues. With a DST, it would be superb because I would not need any haste items, (which generally sacrifice a lot of crit or ap to comparable items), and let the DST handle the non stop haste procs. Unfortunately, Gruul spits on my face and laughs every time we kill him, as well as the fact that we have skipped him 2 weeks in a row now due to pushing our completion of BT.

Last edited by Howitzer : 08/15/07 at 3:19 PM.
#2061SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I'm pretty sure there is a degree of jitter in log stamps. I've done multiple thousands of shots Boom tests of just AFK auto shot, and the times there vary too*. I guess I wasn't clear in saying why this would be practically impossible to figure out on our own.

* - This is from memory, I am not 100% positive of this, but I will test in the next few days to make sure.
I can do some stat crunching on Dr. Boom and try to assess the impact of "jitter" (error) in the measurement system (WWS) to allow for the determination of statistical changes in the auto shot delay after a steady shot.

Trial 1: Dr. Boom Autoshot No Variable Haste Trial
1) Auto shot only with server controlled firing rate (all proc haste items off) to establish base line for 1000 shots, creating a time stamped log file.

2) Analyze basic statistics on shot to shot time to determine: average, range, standard deviation, mode and median leading to an error associated with the WWS measurement system

3) Use this measurement system error for trial 2 and 3 below.

Trial 2: Dr. Boom Steady Shot/ Auto Shot No Variable Haste Trial with no expected clipping (effective weapon speed well above latency/human interface + GCD value)
1) Steady/Auto rotation for 1000 cycles with all proc haste items off to create the time stamped log file

2) Analyze the timing between the Steady to Auto Shots to determine: average, range, standard deviation, mode and median

3) Under confidence of 95% - measurement error established by trial 1, determine if the 0.5s timing is a valid hypothesis

4) Publish result on this thread

Trial 3: Dr. Boom Steady Shot / Steady Shot / Auto Shot under forced "clipping" conditions
1) Steady/ Steady/ Auto rotation for 1000 cycles to force the Autoshot to be fired as soon as it can after the second Steady Shot

2) Analyze the timing between the Steady Shots

3) Analyze the timing between the second Steady and the Auto

4) Under confidence of 95% - measurement error established by trial 1, determine if the 0.5s timing is a valid hypothesis for the steady to auto delay and if the 1.5s GCD is valid between Steady (why not - if we have the data)

5) Publish results on this thread

Fun times.
#2062SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Sounds very thorough but the problem is for the numbers you are dealing with, a 95% confidence measurement isn't really possible.

If auto shot cast is affected by hates that brings it down to 0.3623s from 0.5s. So you will trying to measure a 138ms difference with log timestamps that can include 50+ms of latency at any given second under ideal conditions.

You can't necessarily duplicate your conditions in trial 2 and 3, as compared to 1.
#2063SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Talut
I believe where MM over-takes BM is when the Dragonspine Trophy is added in. The 30% haste aparently has something along the lines of 3-4 PPM. That one trinket alone is the single most powerful item in the entire game. I have been analyzing haste builds, and looking over WWS parses of a MM using the 15/43/3 build and the DST then comparing to the other BM hunters in the raid. They are all essentially neck-and-neck with no haste gear, only the MM has the trinket and it is the sole reason for him matching and/or beating their DPS in every log I have seen. He uses a 1:1 rotation with multi mixed in as far as I can tell, and the hastes are up more often than not.
/wave Chulainn

I am interested in making this transtion soon. The scorpid poison gravy train is going to end, it's just a matter of time. I currently have a crystalweave cape in the bank also that I was saving for an MM build for added haste.

At this point I do not know when my gear is adequate for the MM conversion. I enjoy arenas also and MM seems suited for it, since the nature of most fights only last 1-2 minutes, so high burst, power, scatter and SS excel.

I've read the transition seems to happen around BT/Hyjal attained gear. Has anyone found any hard numbers to back this with regards to stats?
#2064SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Talut View Post
/wave Chulainn

I am interested in making this transtion soon. The scorpid poison gravy train is going to end, it's just a matter of time. I currently have a crystalweave cape in the bank also that I was saving for an MM build for added haste.

At this point I do not know when my gear is adequate for the MM conversion. I enjoy arenas also and MM seems suited for it, since the nature of most fights only last 1-2 minutes, so high burst, power, scatter and SS excel.

I've read the transition seems to happen around BT/Hyjal attained gear. Has anyone found any hard numbers to back this with regards to stats?
A lot earlier than you might think:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14843-h...d_game_builds/

I would wait about a week or so before taking those numbers as 100% solid since I still need to rework them, but they are fairly close at the moment. The problem with switching to MM for a 1:1.5 rotation is you basically need a shadowpriest to avoid mana problems.
#2065SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Tyrae
Hey guys, a bit off topic but wanted yer opinion. I ran my spreadsheet for my current gear, and my tier 6 wish list for the near future and started to look at what bow I wanted to take from Hyjal/BT. Both sets of gear show me that they Hyjal bow will grant me better DPS. ironically it dropped tonight and I said screw it and spent dkp on it. Am I going to regret it when I see the Illidan bow drop and I can't afford to pick it up on the 1st drop? Mana hasn't been an issue for me for a long time and as kool as the mana regen effect looks it seems like something I can live with out for better dps.
#2066SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3bulldazhor
Originally Posted by Tyrae View Post
Hey guys, a bit off topic but wanted yer opinion. I ran my spreadsheet for my current gear, and my tier 6 wish list for the near future and started to look at what bow I wanted to take from Hyjal/BT. Both sets of gear show me that they Hyjal bow will grant me better DPS. ironically it dropped tonight and I said screw it and spent dkp on it. Am I going to regret it when I see the Illidan bow drop and I can't afford to pick it up on the 1st drop? Mana hasn't been an issue for me for a long time and as kool as the mana regen effect looks it seems like something I can live with out for better dps.
You got the bow, grats, you gain a cookie because you're special
Please can we avoid this kind of post who bring nothing to the discussion

To bring back to the subject, In order to get the higher first tick of a scopid poison we have to stack as much AP as we can. The best trinket i found so far for that is a figurine craft by jewelcrafter : Figurine - Nightseye Panther
54AP + 320 AP On use for 12sec which give more AP than the Brooch.

Unfortunatly it's BOP so only JWCrafter can have it, but it well worth it if you don't have the brooch yet (and maybe even after if you FD/Switch after use)
#2067SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Ishmaael
fd switching trinkets is a quick way to lowering your dps my friend. And as for the dude 2 posts above and his bow questions, it's entirely dependant. For instance im not sure how closely you modeled both in your spreadsheets, but Illiden's bow's mana steal equates to a huge amount of mana (depends on your haste ect, some say 25, some say closer to 50 mp5) either way its a large amount, and should easily allow you to swap one of your steady shot's for a full-rank multi every 10 seconds, which is an untalented (no barrage) bonus of around 20dps (thats purely an approximation but i think most would agree a full-rank multi hit's harder than a steady). What i am getting at is that if your in any way running oom or not using certain shot's because of their mana efficiency, illiden's bow becomes a higher damage weapon. Alternately if you are chain chugging fel mana's, using an agil/mageblood potion combo with a major mana oil AND in the group of a shadow priest (for instance) or just on a fight like leotheras which with it is relatively hard to go out of mana, Archimonde's bow is better.

You already have one so id probably chill and let the others take the other.

edit: i was under the impression that some of those trinkets have a cap on the use, and disappear after say 10 /uses making them less attractive as a long term investment.
#2068SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Slash
I currently use the Nightseye Panther trinket. I can confirm it does not have a cap on uses. It does however have a 3 min CD, while i believe the Bloodlust Brooch and Bladefists Breadth only have a 2min CD. This makes it have a lower dps boost over the length of the fight. It does however give a larger short-term AP boost and this is main reason i use it, to buff my scorpid poison at the beginning of the fight.
#2069SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zogeth
Originally Posted by bulldazhor View Post
You got the bow, grats, you gain a cookie because you're special
Please can we avoid this kind of post who bring nothing to the discussion

Thats not really what Tyrae was saying.

The bow from Illidan, Tyrae, is nice, but try and look past the mana part of it. Go for the bow that grants you the biggest upgrade DPS-wise. If you can hang on in fights now, and not run out of mana (by any means) then theres no reason to go for the mana regen on the Illidan bow. However, my guild is only mid way TK and 5/6 SSC, so maybe somebody with a bit more experience could comment on this for you!
#2070SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Samurai
Non-Hunter here :P

Sorry to intrude but i just have a quick question about hunter gems for BM spec.

As with many BT/Hyjal guilds we have a shortage of Crimson Spinel's, I was just wondering if 8agi gems were still the best option if 10agi is unavailable or is the epic 10ap 5crit rating better? (including kings of course in the calculation)
#2071SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Chulainn of Dalaran
Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran View Post
I can do some stat crunching on Dr. Boom and try to assess the impact of "jitter" (error) in the measurement system (WWS) to allow for the determination of statistical changes in the auto shot delay after a steady shot.

Trial 1: Dr. Boom Autoshot No Variable Haste Trial
1) Auto shot only with server controlled firing rate (all proc haste items off) to establish base line for 1000 shots, creating a time stamped log file.

2) Analyze basic statistics on shot to shot time to determine: average, range, standard deviation, mode and median leading to an error associated with the WWS measurement system

3) Use this measurement system error for trial 2 and 3 below.

Fun times.
I think the professional term is that there is a unholy crap ton of error in the combat logging timer and/or how the timing for auto shot to auto shot works in game:

Average shot time: 2.21 Seconds
Standard Deviation: 0.115 Seconds
Mode: 2.22 seconds
Median: 2.22 seconds
Min: 1.86 seconds
Max: 2.531 seconds

My latency during the run was 74ms.

That is a huge distribution on something that I thought would be relatively stable - semi-afk auto shots on Dr. Boom.

With this degree of error in the basic measurement system, further analysis really cannot be done with any confidence - but I am going to do it anyway for sake of getting it done.

EDIT: Observation: My Char Screen Weapon speed for the trial was 2.17, could it be latency that is extending the standard auto shot speed - or the combat log receiving the confirmation of the auto shot hit from the server being affected by variation in latency. (It seems to be following the model of: effective weapon speed + 1/2 latency (2.17 + 0.037) ~ 2.20 seconds)

Last edited by Chulainn of Dalaran : 08/17/07 at 9:35 AM.
#2072SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Tyrae
Originally Posted by Zogeth View Post
Thats not really what Tyrae was saying.

The bow from Illidan, Tyrae, is nice, but try and look past the mana part of it. Go for the bow that grants you the biggest upgrade DPS-wise. If you can hang on in fights now, and not run out of mana (by any means) then theres no reason to go for the mana regen on the Illidan bow. However, my guild is only mid way TK and 5/6 SSC, so maybe somebody with a bit more experience could comment on this for you!

Thanks for not being a douche like the poster above. I figure since it was a question related to the theorycraft of weapon DPS related to a BM hunter this was the best thread for it.

Basically i was wondering how others felt about the mana regen from the illidan bow being more beneficial to a hunters dps (in general) than the higher spread-sheeted Archimonde bow.
#2073SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3bulldazhor
From the last Patch on the PTR it's seems that some modification have been done on the scorpid poison.
Actually the Rank 5 does 55 damage within 10s duration like the other rank but all rank have their damage drastically reduce

For the moment for a BM hunt with 2000AP
Rank 4 : 22 by tick -> 110 at full stack
Under BW : 33 by Tic -> 165 full stack

Rank 5 : 27 by tick -> 135 Full stack
Under BW : 40 by tick -> 200 Full stack (we are far from the 800 it could do)

An announce end to the reign of the PVE Raid King scorpid.

Ps: Sorry tyrae if i misinterpreted your post for a brag.
#2074SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by bulldazhor View Post
From the last Patch on the PTR it's seems that some modification have been done on the scorpid poison.
Actually the Rank 5 does 55 damage within 10s duration like the other rank but all rank have their damage drastically reduce

For the moment for a BM hunt with 2000AP
Rank 4 : 22 by tick -> 110 at full stack
Under BW : 33 by Tic -> 165 full stack

Rank 5 : 27 by tick -> 135 Full stack
Under BW : 40 by tick -> 200 Full stack (we are far from the 800 it could do)

An announce end to the reign of the PVE Raid King scorpid.

Ps: Sorry tyrae if i misinterpreted your post for a brag.
Holy ouchy. I knew this was coming, however, I didn't notice the change on the PTR yet because I was just fooling around with my Cat/Raptor. Well, I can't lie and say it wasn't a ton of fun while it lasted.
#2075SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fendryl
Originally Posted by bulldazhor View Post
From the last Patch on the PTR it's seems that some modification have been done on the scorpid poison.
Actually the Rank 5 does 55 damage within 10s duration like the other rank but all rank have their damage drastically reduce

For the moment for a BM hunt with 2000AP
Rank 4 : 22 by tick -> 110 at full stack
Under BW : 33 by Tic -> 165 full stack

Rank 5 : 27 by tick -> 135 Full stack
Under BW : 40 by tick -> 200 Full stack (we are far from the 800 it could do)

An announce end to the reign of the PVE Raid King scorpid.

Ps: Sorry tyrae if i misinterpreted your post for a brag.

Man, when that bat swings, it's always hard. Well at least with 2.2 the ravagers in the netherwing mines are tamable now, so switching dps pets is doable. Time to dig up those old Ravager vs Wind Serpent theorycrafts.
#2076SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Cheeky
Originally Posted by bulldazhor View Post
From the last Patch on the PTR it's seems that some modification have been done on the scorpid poison.
Actually the Rank 5 does 55 damage within 10s duration like the other rank but all rank have their damage drastically reduce

For the moment for a BM hunt with 2000AP
Rank 4 : 22 by tick -> 110 at full stack
Under BW : 33 by Tic -> 165 full stack

Rank 5 : 27 by tick -> 135 Full stack
Under BW : 40 by tick -> 200 Full stack (we are far from the 800 it could do)

An announce end to the reign of the PVE Raid King scorpid.

Ps: Sorry tyrae if i misinterpreted your post for a brag.
I think at this point it is safe to say that Blizzard's idea of using +spell damage on pets failed. Any ability that uses it is exploited and nerfed. Personally I loved it, because anything that allows scaling with progression is more fun.

Are there any other specials that use +damage in a meaningful way? Does Screech or Poison Spit?

Last edited by Cheeky : 08/17/07 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Spelling "poison" correctly
#2077SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
edit: useless post, delete please
#2078SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by bulldazhor View Post
From the last Patch on the PTR it's seems that some modification have been done on the scorpid poison.
Actually the Rank 5 does 55 damage within 10s duration like the other rank but all rank have their damage drastically reduce

For the moment for a BM hunt with 2000AP
Rank 4 : 22 by tick -> 110 at full stack
Under BW : 33 by Tic -> 165 full stack

Rank 5 : 27 by tick -> 135 Full stack
Under BW : 40 by tick -> 200 Full stack (we are far from the 800 it could do)

An announce end to the reign of the PVE Raid King scorpid.

Ps: Sorry tyrae if i misinterpreted your post for a brag.
Wow, that is one hell of a nerf. It is now a far worse focus dump than just about anything you can get on a pet. 135 on a full stack is just sad, especially when you consider activating claw as a focus dump will more often than not push the poison stack off because of the GCD messing with the timing.
#2079SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Twelve
Just tested this myself too.. 2507AP with BW and FI active gives an amazing 190 dmg/tick at 5 stacks.
#2080SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I think at this point it is safe to say that Blizzard's idea of using +spell damage on pets failed. Any ability that uses it is exploited and nerfed. Personally I loved it, because anything that allows scaling with progression is more fun.

Are there any other specials that use +damage in a meaningful way? Does Screech or Poison Spit?
Screech seems to function the same as claw/gore and doesnt get any bonus in damage.
#2081SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shandara
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I think at this point it is safe to say that Blizzard's idea of using +spell damage on pets failed. Any ability that uses it is exploited and nerfed. Personally I loved it, because anything that allows scaling with progression is more fun.

Are there any other specials that use +damage in a meaningful way? Does Screech or Poison Spit?
The ironic thing is that they promised us 'pets would scale', but when we finally have pets that scale in a meaningful way with the BM tree (rather than being a marginal difference between BM/MM) they have to change it.

They seem scared of making a true difference in the way damage scales for Bm, MM or Sv hunters, seeing as how for all 3 trees the ranged dps output is still the largest slice of the pie. I actually enjoyed having a scorpid put out a _significant_ part of my dps, seeing as how it's a _beast_master tree...
#2082SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fola
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I think at this point it is safe to say that Blizzard's idea of using +spell damage on pets failed. Any ability that uses it is exploited and nerfed. Personally I loved it, because anything that allows scaling with progression is more fun.

Are there any other specials that use +damage in a meaningful way? Does Screech or Poison Spit?
I am somewhat glad to hear that they did in fact nerf that, but along with that I hope they will please look into correcting the lack of scaling at this point. They tried to implement it and failed thus having to nerf the abilities that did scale. With this scorpid change they will join the wind serpents as a pet no-one will ever really use. It is not difficult to implement pet specials scaling with the owner they just do a very poor job at math sometimes.

Lets hope this is stage 1 in the process of fixing the scaling issue. Bring the outliers into reason then adjust the model, my only worry is they sometimes seem to fail when it comes to fixing the model/mechanic, whether it becomes too complex or they simply don’t have the developer hours available I do not know (I would love to have an open discussion with them about it however).
#2083SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
As long as we are on the subject of pets, can anyone see if Boar Charge still generates a large amount of threat when used in conjunction with Growl? As long as they are swinging nerf bats, it would be good to see whether they consider the snap threat boars are capable of as an "issue."
#2084SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Avellyr
Non-Hunter here :P

Sorry to intrude but i just have a quick question about hunter gems for BM spec.

As with many BT/Hyjal guilds we have a shortage of Crimson Spinel's, I was just wondering if 8agi gems were still the best option if 10agi is unavailable or is the epic 10ap 5crit rating better? (including kings of course in the calculation)
Pyrestones will still be better than living rubies, but the Glinting cut is better than Wicked unless your hunters are all maxed on hit. The better option of course, is to just farm the trash on off-nights so you can get enough gems for everyone.
#2085SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Nemeo
I don't think anyone can really be surprised they nerfed this... BM hunters will still do a ton of dps.
#2086SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3MikeMo
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
The ironic thing is that they promised us 'pets would scale', but when we finally have pets that scale in a meaningful way with the BM tree (rather than being a marginal difference between BM/MM) they have to change it.

They seem scared of making a true difference in the way damage scales for Bm, MM or Sv hunters, seeing as how for all 3 trees the ranged dps output is still the largest slice of the pie. I actually enjoyed having a scorpid put out a _significant_ part of my dps, seeing as how it's a _beast_master tree...
I truly, truly want to flame you and anybody like you.

But I will be nice and just say I am glad for the change.
#2087SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Shaile
Originally Posted by Fendryl View Post
Man, when that bat swings, it's always hard. Well at least with 2.2 the ravagers in the netherwing mines are tamable now, so switching dps pets is doable. Time to dig up those old Ravager vs Wind Serpent theorycrafts.
That theory craft died when they removed scaling on lighting breath months ago. WS hasn't been a raiding dps pet for ages. As it is now from 2.2 and on its standing between cats, raptors and ravagers. gore does slightly (like 1-4 dps) higher damage but on the other hand is ugly as hell (my opinion :P) since gore doesn't scale its a non issue. WS will never become competable since they got only a 7% dmg modifier and its insane crit dependency.

Originally Posted by MikeMo
I truly, truly want to flame you and anybody like you.

But I will be nice and just say I am glad for the change.
You think just like the clueless people on the official forums who are raving on about every nerf when it comes, the current fotm whine is wf now that it wont procc on special attacks. They seem incapable to grasp the reason why something so incredibly obviously overpowered needs to get toned down, i mean having a group of 3 hunters, 1 warrior and a shaman and STILL the shaman puts down WF because it ups the DPS output of that group more than a agi totem would be a wake up sign but no.
Same with scorpid poison, people just don't seem to understand that having a defensive pet out dpsing dps pets by 200% is not ok game mechanics wise.
I'm quite sure the riot on official forums will be immense and massive as usual and i'm certain blizzard will ignore them just back when WS got nerfed.
The hunter issues they should work in are in complete different areas (like steady shot, ranged survivability, mobility kiting, pet classes, talents etc).

Last edited by Shaile : 08/17/07 at 6:41 PM.
#2088SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3erb
I hope that they decide to add some type of scalability to at least one type of pet. I understand that they want to stay away from the 1 raiding pet rule but if they were to make something like claw scale or gore then at least we would have a couple of different choices. Everyone knew this was coming and I doubt many (intelligent) people are going to cry about it, but at least they could have made some type of pet ability scale.
#2089SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Elfalora
It is quite obvious that the spell damage Wind Serpent and the Scorpid got from hunter RAP were too high. I was actually surprised that the last change to Lightning Breath didn’t make it to the Scorpid since both use similar scaling formulas.

The question I have is: What would be a good RAP -> pet +dmg scaling formula? The idea here is that your pet’s DPS should keep up with your own gear scaling and maintain a certain % of your total DPS. The RAP -> pet AP scaling is a start, but there are other stats like haste rating which doesn’t directly benefit your pet and at some point, you’d “outgear” your pet, but to a much lesser extent than pre-BC.

Any math inclined could figure this out? Without a good answer, it is hard to conclude if Blizzard over-nerfed the Wind Serpent / Scorpid, other than the fact that it’s nerfed HARD.
#2090SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3sasukekun
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I haven't been able to find a post I heard somewhere here its said that the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness, (BT exalted trinket), was nerfed on PTR? Anyone know what the change was?
Anyone do any testing on current PTR build with this trinket?

[Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness]
#2091SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shandara
Originally Posted by Nemeo View Post
I don't think anyone can really be surprised they nerfed this... BM hunters will still do a ton of dps.
I'm not trumpeting for an overpowered pet, I'm clamoring for the actual pet scaling they promised us. Inadvertently, they provided it for us (Lightning Breath, Scorpid Poison) and now they remove it. Flame me all you want for resisting this change.
#2092SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Intenso
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
I'm not trumpeting for an overpowered pet, I'm clamoring for the actual pet scaling they promised us. Inadvertently, they provided it for us (Lightning Breath, Scorpid Poison) and now they remove it. Flame me all you want for resisting this change.
I agree with you. Now the only pet left for absolute numbers in dps terms is a Ravager. And that is sad. What it would be interesting to implement is rap scaling for claw/bite/gore. But i am almost sure that they will mess with their formulas so much that the claw will do more damage than a rogue.
#2093SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Inudemon
Well on the bright side, Blizzard appears to have fixed 2 Piece T5 on the PTR so that it's now affected by Auto Shot. I also checked Talon of Alar to make sure they didn't fix some mechanic that caused auto shot to not trigger certain effects (I know the Talon is supposedly working as intented). Sadly it remains unchanged.
Attached Thumbnails
2prs.jpg  
#2094SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Samurai
Originally Posted by Avellyr View Post
Pyrestones will still be better than living rubies, but the Glinting cut is better than Wicked unless your hunters are all maxed on hit. The better option of course, is to just farm the trash on off-nights so you can get enough gems for everyone.
So for the Basic stats of 10ap5crit vs 8agi (+kings) is 10ap5crit rating vs 8.8ap 4.8crit rating, so pyrestone wins just but is there any difference with the way pure agi scales with your pet as opposed to ap/crit rating?
#2095SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Intenso View Post
I agree with you. Now the only pet left for absolute numbers in dps terms is a Ravager. And that is sad. What it would be interesting to implement is rap scaling for claw/bite/gore. But i am almost sure that they will mess with their formulas so much that the claw will do more damage than a rogue.
This most recent PTR change simply makes the choice for end-game pets that much smaller. It really takes the fun out of having a pet when every single hunter you see has the exact same one that you do. The fun dynamic of keeping stacks up is now gone as well. Its back to feed it, send it in, and forget about it.
#2096SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Djinn
Well now that Haste Rating has received a decent nurf. I was Wonder if its time to pick up the Gun from BT (1.9 speed) and use a 13% haste quiver, and for the haste gear replacing it with pure dps mail/leather gear. Hopefully i can pick up the gun this week and try it out. What do you guys think?
#2097SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
senior toasted bread
I see no reason to use a 13% quiver over a 15%, sure you will clip more but more haste is never less dps, it just isn't needed. More haste wouldn't help auto/steady, but would not hurt it either, but it would help if you sub in arcane/multi mana permitting.

[E] So pluging it into the spreadsheet over a Sunfury was around 80 dps loss, with a 200ms ping, I dont think its worth it.

Last edited by senior toasted bread : 08/18/07 at 1:31 PM.
#2098SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Casander
Originally Posted by Inudemon View Post
Well on the bright side, Blizzard appears to have fixed 2 Piece T5 on the PTR so that it's now affected by Auto Shot. I also checked Talon of Alar to make sure they didn't fix some mechanic that caused auto shot to not trigger certain effects (I know the Talon is supposedly working as intented). Sadly it remains unchanged.
The Talon of Al'ar remaining worthless saddens me because I just got it several days ago, only to bank it until it is buffed. Would it even be worth it to use the talon if they did fix it?

Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
This most recent PTR change simply makes the choice for end-game pets that much smaller. It really takes the fun out of having a pet when every single hunter you see has the exact same one that you do. The fun dynamic of keeping stacks up is now gone as well. Its back to feed it, send it in, and forget about it.
On the bright side, we won't have to worry about trying to keep our pets in on bosses when the pet is in present danger just so we can keep up the poison stacks. And anyone who was originally using a scorpid will most likely see a personal increase in dps from the hunter by a small margin due to not having to save cooldowns. This looks like we can put up another point for marksman spec on the board because that option of having the scorpid do massive dps from BW and trinkets is gone, so now your DPS comparisons of you in BM to MM spec are now actually something to consider more so than before since the scorpid cannot push anything in favor of the BM tree . Once DST drops (if it ever does), I think I will try out some WWS tests on the servants to see if the trinket is actually the difference in DPS by speccing something along the lines of 14/44/3. The fact that DST and IAotH combined puts the MM spec closer to a perfect rotation and shoves the BM spec too far past the perfect shot rotation speed may be enough, if the gear alone from high end game content isn't.
#2099SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
Well now that Haste Rating has received a decent nurf. I was Wonder if its time to pick up the Gun from BT (1.9 speed) and use a 13% haste quiver, and for the haste gear replacing it with pure dps mail/leather gear. Hopefully i can pick up the gun this week and try it out. What do you guys think?
Testing has given the following formula for its damage range:
SteadyShotDamage = DamagePercentageBonus*RWS*(150 + (WeaponDamage/WeaponSpeed)*2.8 + 0.2*RAP + [Dazed: 175])

You picking up the 1.9 speed Gun with much, much lower min/max damage of the Bristleblitz isn't going to help any in my opinion, neither will getting the quiver speed down by 2% to avoid clips. I would roll with the punches. Your armory suggests you already have possible clip issues when IAoTH procs or at least if RF is up + IAoTH. With this change you might just have an easier time managing a rotation.
#2100SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Lysander1
Nerfing Scorpids hasn't really helped anything, especially now that they made level 70 Ravagers tamable. The only change is that now every good raiding Hunter will have a Ravager. At least before there was some amount of difference, and Hunters used different pets on a per-fight basis. Now? Ravager for every fight.

Does anyone know where the level 70 Ravagers are, though? I know they are in the mine on the Netherdrake place, but is it possible to get to them without being 300 Riding skill?
#2151SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3okla
Originally Posted by Asmolicious View Post
Just before phase 2 you could put your pet to stay in the middle of the room thus protecting it from the bow. If you leave him in the corner he could still be taking damage by having the bow pointed in his direction. Alternatively you have plenty of time to dismiss the pet if you are still finding this to be an issue.
I usually place it infront of the weapon spawns towards the left, after you get agro on the bow send your pet to assist a rogue on the mace or something, he can manage on his own.
#2152SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3constantius
Be wary of using your pet on the mace due to the Holy Nova which will go off a few times. Our hunters have been sic'ing their pets on the dagger with reasonable results so far (pets live until the end, so that's a good thing).

DPSing the shield, the axe, the bow, or the staff is basically out, so you're limited to sword, dagger, and mace, and of the three, mace is the most dangerous due to the potential for AE.
#2153SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
LokE
i feel like going to get a salker for magtheridon, though just so i can be a bit lazy doing him, our tanks for reason refuse to tank him stationary, and insist on spinning him round in the middle :/

we currently do 3/4 tk and 5/6 ssc and anyhting lower every week and i dont realy have issues on any of ther other bosses, salker might be usefull on nagas on vashj, but i dunno if its realy worth the trouble for 2 fights.

Last edited by LokE : 08/21/07 at 9:23 AM.
#2154SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reviction
You can pick up a level 70 stalker in skettis(terokar forest). Don't have to go to Mags.
#2155SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Asmolicious View Post
Just before phase 2 you could put your pet to stay in the middle of the room thus protecting it from the bow. If you leave him in the corner he could still be taking damage by having the bow pointed in his direction. Alternatively you have plenty of time to dismiss the pet if you are still finding this to be an issue.
Uhh, I always just send my pet on the bow while I am tanking it and it never dies. I just always assumed that since it was a bow it would not melee and always fire on me. Is this not the case for some people?
#2156SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Shandara
Originally Posted by Reipin Pillage View Post
Uhh, I always just send my pet on the bow while I am tanking it and it never dies. I just always assumed that since it was a bow it would not melee and always fire on me. Is this not the case for some people?
When people melee it it seems to teleport around a lot more. With no melee on it we usually keep it stationary at its spawn point until it dies.
#2157SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Trohck
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
With no melee on it we usually keep it stationary at its spawn point until it dies.
As long as nothing melees it and it remains in LoS of its target, the bow will not move. However, anything that melees it (including pets) will cause a teleport. Best to have your pet assist the melee while you DPS the bow.

Last edited by Trohck : 08/21/07 at 1:15 PM.
#2158SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
When people melee it it seems to teleport around a lot more. With no melee on it we usually keep it stationary at its spawn point until it dies.
Ah ok, I always just turned it if it ported and was aiming at people.
#2159SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Ryas
VM uses two hunters on the bow (3 hunters if they are in the raid). One tanks it, the others DPS it down. We do use pets on it, and they take like no damage. The bow does teleport due to melee damage, however, it doesn't go very far and is still done easily.
#2160SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3MajikEnder
@Asmolicious

there is no harm in specing MM or survival or whatever you'd use for your raids in BT/Hyjal while you learn the encounters and figure out what to do with your pet while it's not critical to your dps .
#2161SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Asmolicious
Originally Posted by MajikEnder View Post
@Asmolicious

there is no harm in specing MM or survival or whatever you'd use for your raids in BT/Hyjal while you learn the encounters and figure out what to do with your pet while it's not critical to your dps .
It's been quite the week, when I left raiding we were working on Hydross. This week I've done SSC, TK & Hyjal with BT still to come tonight all for the first time. Quite stressful reading up on 3 1/2 instances worth of encounters in such a short space of time! Thanks to those who responded to my previous post.

I apologise if some of these are obvious but I thought I'd offer the following snippets of advice, some of which are simply re-iterances from posts on this forum I found of particular use:


- Respec your pet for each instance
Avoidance, reflexes and important aggressive skills then dump everything else into maxing 2 schools of resist and dump the remainder in stam. This helps pet survivability in a massive way. Having your companion alive and not having to worry about him is a huge asset.
SSC: Frost & Nature
The Eye: Fire & Arcane
Hyjal & Black Temple: Fire & Shadow

- Always try to have your pet attack the rear of a boss if possible
As mentioned a few posts ago regarding the benefits of a warpstalkers. Attacking from the front exposes risk to cleaves, extra mitigation through parries and additional incoming damage to the tank also through parries. Simply moving behind the boss before sending your pet in will place place your pet in a much safer position.

Little gems

- Your pet doesn't have to be on the same mob as you. If the target deals a lot of AoE melee damage place your pet on a safer target, or if you killing mobs which die quickly place it on a longer standing target to ensure more consistent FI coverage. e.g. Vashj you can stick your pet on nagas while you kill elementals.
- If it is safe to do so (no CC), on multiple tightly grouped mobs rotate in multi instead of steady when it is up.
- Use a cooldown trinket in combination with Beastial Wrath and rapid fire, rapid fire should be used in conjunction with every other Beastial Wrath (assuming rapid killing).
- Always KC before your steady not after to prohibit clipping. (Auto - KC - Steady and never Steady - KC - Auto)
- Try to get mend pet in early rather than when the pet is on half hp. Because it's a HoT you should hit it the moment you see your pet in a Rain of Fire for example. On the flipside though if you know the damage incurred is a one off with little to no chance of a follow up then let chain healing / other auxillary healing bring it back up.

Encounter Specific

- On Leo the Blind play safe rather than sorry with throwing your pet to dps in human form. Killing an inner demon without a pet as BM can open yourself to risk if you get unlucky with parries on wing clips etc. Also remember that your pet must not get the killing blow else you will get MCd.
- On Hyjal trash running in and laying frost traps can help anyone who pulls aggro on an individual target.

To many reading this you'll probably know everything posted above. I'm just sharing some things that have helped my crash course on returning to raiding.

Last edited by Asmolicious : 08/23/07 at 11:09 AM.
#2162SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Spiry
Originally Posted by Asmolicious View Post
- Respec your pet for each instance
Avoidance, important skills then dump everything else into maxing 2 schools of resist and dump the remainder in stam. This helps pet survivability in a massive way. Having your companion alive and not having to worry about him is a huge asset.
SSC: Frost & Nature
The Eye, Hyjal & Black Temple: Fire & Shadow
Surely this should be Fire and Arcane?

Voidreaver's Pounding and the Orbs are Arcane.
Solarian's attacks and (current) debuffs are Arcane.
#2163SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
Originally Posted by Spiry View Post
Surely this should be Fire and Arcane?

Voidreaver's Pounding and the Orbs are Arcane.
Solarian's attacks and (current) debuffs are Arcane.
Updated. I could have sworn I put Fire and Arcane zZzZ
#2164SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fimbo
Originally Posted by Asmolicious View Post
I apologise if some of these are obvious but I thought I'd offer the following snippets of advice, some of which are simply re-iterances from posts on this forum I found of particular use:
Thanks a lot Asmo.

Great little passage to steal for my guild forums...

Just hope people read it!
#2165SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3xiaoxin21
I have this question for BM hunters.

Today , as we were doing Gorefiend about 3.5 mins into the fight, one of our BM hunters is due to run to the entrance to die.

As he ran pass gorefiend, to our surprise Gorefiend decided to turn aggro him and follow him up the ramp.then proceed to melee and one shot him.

Is this some hidden part of the hunter mechanics in play or just a plain unexplainable occurance? Anyone has similar experience?

The BM hunter: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aman'Thul&n=Athos


The hunter aggro is nowhere near the top in both Omen and Ktm and he said he FD each CD.
#2166SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Does Gorefiend punt the tanks?
#2167SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Locos
Originally Posted by xiaoxin21 View Post
I have this question for BM hunters.

Today , as we were doing Gorefiend about 3.5 mins into the fight, one of our BM hunters is due to run to the entrance to die.

As he ran pass gorefiend, to our surprise Gorefiend decided to turn aggro him and follow him up the ramp.then proceed to melee and one shot him.

Is this some hidden part of the hunter mechanics in play or just a plain unexplainable occurance? Anyone has similar experience?

The BM hunter: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aman'Thul&n=Athos


The hunter aggro is nowhere near the top in both Omen and Ktm and he said he FD each CD.
Well, Feign Death is known to have bugs. I know last night I got killed by Rage Winterchill after a clean un-resisted feign death. The damn Lich ran up and one-shotted my feigned body on the ground. This case seems like the hunter was probably somewhere above 110% but less than the 130% required to pull aggro at range, and once he ran into melee range he pulled aggro. I would just make sure that KTM and Omen really did have him low, otherwise chaulk it up to the admittedly broken yet still unfixed Feign Death.
#2168SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Thebe
Consortium Blaster and its usefulness?

Since the nerf to haste rating, and the suggestion to look at the 1.9speed bt gun was put forth, I started to rethink about the Consortium Blaster and it’s impressive spreadsheet stats. I searched for anything in the forums under here and I couldn’t find an already answered question.

What are your thoughts on using this gun since it seems fairly viable at 2.4speed and very easily attainable for raiding purposes.
#2169SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Locos View Post
I would just make sure that KTM and Omen really did have him low, otherwise chaulk it up to the admittedly broken yet still unfixed Feign Death.
Feign Death's "hidden channeled ability that still burns your cooldown" mechanic is definitely one of the poorer ones I've seen. For a while KTM would register an unsuccessful (but unresisted) feign death as an aggro drop when it was not. I wouldn't be surprised if Omen had the same issue.
#2170SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Belzi.ET
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
Feign Death's "hidden channeled ability that still burns your cooldown" mechanic is definitely one of the poorer ones I've seen. For a while KTM would register an unsuccessful (but unresisted) feign death as an aggro drop when it was not. I wouldn't be surprised if Omen had the same issue.
Can you explain how a feign death isn't successful, but not resisted?
I not very familiar with the programming of spells and how they can be resisted.
I just heard about 2 types of spells, but I don't play caster-classes, so I was never highly motivated to learn about it.


I recently installed an addon to warn me if my feign death was resisted. In this case it plays a bell-sound.
For any interested hunters: Meuhmeuh Feign Death Resist Bell (on curse.com)
#2171SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
FD not being resisted and being unsuccessful occurs on occasion. A hunter will FD, show the animation, see that the FD CD is set to 30 seconds with no resisted alert and yet still continue to hold your previous levels of aggro.

I personally have found this occurance to be most common when FD is flashed quickly, i.e. you FD and break out of it instantly. These days I wait ~1 second before popping up and don't find it to be such an issue. I also don't beleive this issue occured before the implimentation of partial resists (some mobs but not others) either.
#2172SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3qu-
Originally Posted by Spiry View Post
Surely this should be Fire and Arcane?

Voidreaver's Pounding and the Orbs are Arcane.
Solarian's attacks and (current) debuffs are Arcane.
Shadow resist is good for gorefiend, winterchill, anetheron, shahraz and maybe essence of anger but I'm not too sure about the last one. Certainly more useful than arcane resist imo.
#2173SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
Originally Posted by qu- View Post
Shadow resist is good for gorefiend, winterchill, anetheron, shahraz and maybe essence of anger but I'm not too sure about the last one. Certainly more useful than arcane resist imo.
I'm sure he mean purely for TK.

If you look at my original post I modified it to show:
Originally Posted by Asmolicious
SSC: Frost & Nature
The Eye: Fire & Arcane
Hyjal & Black Temple: Fire & Shadow
Like you say Shadow and Fire come up a lot in both Hyjal and BT which is nice in terms of not having to respec.

For TK definately spec for Fire & Arcane
#2174SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Intenso
I know this is not a good place to post it but i wouldn't like to make a single thread about it.
I got this yesterday on Gruul's:

21:36'49.280 Intenso's Arcane Shot crits Gruul the Dragonkiller for 1519 Arcane damage (54 blocked)

Blocked?!? Its first time i see a block on my arcane shot. I could understand resist, but block? Am i am missing something? Or its just a bug of wws?
#2175SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Arcane Shot has always been blockable (at least by mobs), as well as (partially) resistable.
I remember this happening even when attempting the first bosses in Molten Core.
#2176SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Intenso
Strange, never came in to my attention. I 've only seen partial resists too. And now that i am looking the rest of the log i have blocks in my steady's too. Thanks for the quick reply.
#2177SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Miya Mirage
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
I recently installed an addon to warn me if my feign death was resisted. In this case it plays a bell-sound.
For any interested hunters: Meuhmeuh Feign Death Resist Bell (on curse.com)
For me the addon listing in wow says that the addon is incompatible. What did you change to get it running?
#2178SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Arcane Shot has always been blockable (at least by mobs), as well as (partially) resistable.
I remember this happening even when attempting the first bosses in Molten Core.
This is a little OT, but it turns out Expose Weakness can miss o.O
I just recently dipped under the hit-cap in playing with some items and low and behold scrolling across my screen goes "Expose Weakness - Miss" or some such. How does an applied debuff miss?
#2179SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
I'm fairly certain that's a bug. It's been around since the 8/8 Dragonstalker era, though.
#2180SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Groggan
Oh, aye, but it was still fairly surprising to see :P
#2181SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zurai
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I'm fairly certain that's a bug. It's been around since the 8/8 Dragonstalker era, though.
In Dragonstalker's case it was a "Expose Weakness resisted" message, though - legacy of it being labeled an arcane effect. They finally fixed it by making it physical. I never saw DS Expose Weakness miss, though.
#2182SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Zurai View Post
In Dragonstalker's case it was a "Expose Weakness resisted" message, though - legacy of it being labeled an arcane effect. They finally fixed it by making it physical. I never saw DS Expose Weakness miss, though.
After they changed it from being Arcane to being Physical, I saw it miss, several times.
So, as I said, Expose Weakness missing dates back to Dragonstalker 8/8 :P
#2183SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Althir
In what way is an EW bug related to BM Raiding Hunters in 2.1 Theorcrafting, beyond the fact that it is a DPS increase from an outside source (comparable to Curse of Recklessness or something else the BM Hunter has no control over)?
#2184SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by dranordr View Post
Sometimes i have the feeling that the encounter designers pretend us to be rangers.. or waste a lot of mana ressing our pets, take as an example Archimonde, Azgalor, Essence of Souls (Essence of Suffering) or Illidan you know that you're going to ress your pet at least once because mend pet won't save your pet from dying from a Doomfire/Flame/Whatever AOE or random dot that targets pets and it's not in the avoidance list.
I grew tired of those encounters, getting feared into the doomfires it's not funny, see how your pet gets afflicted by the soul drain an noone decurses it makes you lose time ressing your pet and asking those slacking paladins, priests and druids to buff your pet again or depend on a small chance to get it removed by an insufficient HoT which does not scale.

This is one of the reasons I chose to switch back and forth between different builds as often as I do. The encounters in end-game TBC must be hell to balance around pet classes and their survival. They did a great job with adding avoidance in and the new pet mend mechanic but in reality it isn't enough to keep the pet up on Archimonde, Illidan, ROS phase 1, etc. There are still fights out there that are very unfriendly to BM spec Hunters.

Blizzard can argue that the healers in the raid can easily make up for this downfall by healing or decursing the pet but lets face it... that is not going to happen. Healers have way more on their plate than we do in a raid and they are not going to be wasting their time on an NPC "dumb" pet that can't correctly position itself when a tank decides to turn etc....
#2185SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Bloodwrath
Slightly off topic and in response to howitzers speccing issues in higher end, has anyone tried playing with a hybrid BM/MM spec something like 22/39/0?
here
We do miss out on some of the personal buffs from survival to hit and crit etc but the increase in pets dps may be worth it (remember the "naxx" spec anyone) I think i'll try something similar over the weekend n see what it comes up with.

Edit: It occurs to me this might be the ideal spec to couple with a windserpent due to the higher RAP and pet damage time to level another one...
#2186SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Chulainn of Dalaran
Are there any addons that can determine the average actual weapon speed - or display the current weapon speed in its own display (playing with the character pane open is getting me down).
#2187SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Bloodwrath View Post
Edit: It occurs to me this might be the ideal spec to couple with a windserpent due to the higher RAP and pet damage time to level another one...
+1000 AP will only add ~12 damage to your average LB.
#2188SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Obtaineddillon
For BM hunters, how much haste is too much haste

I really do apologize if this has been stated somewhere in another thread, for I have looked. My character is a 70 BM hunter and I was wondering at what point haste really begins to clip out my damage? More specifically, when I use an ability like rapid fire and quick shots procs, my attack speed is 1.22 (using Don Santos'). Obviously this is below the global cooldown. Should I for the duration just auto attack with careful weaving of an instant arcane shot instead of steady shot/auto shot? Even worse, if I have a shaman in my group who uses heroism, wouldn't this make make it even less desirable to use steady shot? I know the speed of steady shot is reduced with haste effects but I guess that brings me back to my original question, how much haste is too much haste? This is my first post so please be gentle.

Edited: grammar
#2189SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Zurai
Originally Posted by Obtaineddillon View Post
Even worse, if I have a shaman in my group who uses heroism, wouldn't this make make it even less desirable to use steady shot?
I can answer this much at least - Heroism/Bloodlust is the only player-available ability that lowers the global cooldown in addition to speeding up attacks. Thus, it is -- theoretically at least -- irrelevant to the discussion of "how much haste?".
#2190SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Obtaineddillon
Originally Posted by Zurai View Post
I can answer this much at least - Heroism/Bloodlust is the only player-available ability that lowers the global cooldown in addition to speeding up attacks. Thus, it is -- theoretically at least -- irrelevant to the discussion of "how much haste?".
Ahh yes i see that in the other relevant thread. Thank you for pointing that out.
#2191SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Vitali
Originally Posted by The Iron Colonel View Post
Honestly, that bow isn't all that impressive to me. By the time you reach Illidan, you damn sure better have your mana issues worked out as a hunter (either potting or SP). That bow sacrifices a lot of stats for mp5 - frankly I'm not sure it's worth it (even though 26mp5 is a pretty big amount). I'd go with the Archimonde bow, even though it's still itemized poorly (stam? no thanks).
In an ideal world you'd have both in your bag - using the Archimond bow until you reached 40% mana and then switched in the Illidan bow for the mana return as a top up.
#2192SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Female Tauren
I just traded in my scorpid for a wind serpent.

I was wondering is bite worth the focus or should I just use lightning breath 100% of the time?
#2193SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Torvahn
My understanding is that bite is pretty useless considering the cooldown and LB along with ravager's gore or cat/raptor's claw make great focus dumps. You can spam them as often as the pet has focus for it and use the TP for bite elsewhere.

Edit: These "focus dumps" become necessary to maximize the benifit from GftT to prevent you from having wasted focus by the pet not using it all up.

Last edited by Torvahn : 08/27/07 at 9:47 AM.
#2194SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Torvahn View Post
My understanding is that bite is pretty useless considering the cooldown and LB along with ravager's gore or cat/raptor's claw make great focus dumps. You can spam them as often as the pet has focus for it and use the TP for bite elsewhere.

Edit: These "focus dumps" become necessary to maximize the benifit from GftT to prevent you from having wasted focus by the pet not using it all up.
Bite is still going to provide a better damage-per-focus ratio than Lightning Breath will. Bite does 120 damage before modifiers from mood, hit/crit, etc. Lightning Breath does about 135-140 damage for a Hunter with 2500 RAP before those same sorts of modifiers. Since Lightning Breath crits at a lower rate it will actually get less of a multiplier. When you look at 35 focus for Bite and 50 focus for Lightning Breath you are better off spending X focus on Bite.

Since Bite has a cool down you still need a focus dump, but just because you have a focus dump don't neglect Bite.
#2195SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3khel
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Bite is still going to provide a better damage-per-focus ratio than Lightning Breath will. Bite does 120 damage before modifiers from mood, hit/crit, etc. Lightning Breath does about 135-140 damage for a Hunter with 2500 RAP before those same sorts of modifiers. Since Lightning Breath crits at a lower rate it will actually get less of a multiplier. When you look at 35 focus for Bite and 50 focus for Lightning Breath you are better off spending X focus on Bite.

Since Bite has a cool down you still need a focus dump, but just because you have a focus dump don't neglect Bite.
If you factor in armor though, that 120 damage from bite drops to 84 damage (at 30% mitigation).

That puts bite at 2.4dmg per focus before modifiers, and LB at 2.75 with your numbers. On my windserpent I only train LB and growl, with the rest in resists and stamina.
#2196SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by khel View Post
If you factor in armor though, that 120 damage from bite drops to 84 damage (at 30% mitigation).

That puts bite at 2.4dmg per focus before modifiers, and LB at 2.75 with your numbers. On my windserpent I only train LB and growl, with the rest in resists and stamina.
Yep, I forgot about armor. But we also didn't factor in boss resist rates, and the differences in crit between physical attacks and spells. I'm not sure if LB can be dodged or not. It's probably pretty close, and you can save the training points by just using LB.

Looking at a Windserpent used by a Survival Hunter in my guild I see the following breakdowns:
Void Reaver - 162 average Lightning Breath with 14.8% miss rate, 66 average Bite with 12.5% miss rate, no critical hits from either.

I'll see if I can find more data points, since this is extremely limited, but these numbers back up Khel's assertions.
#2197SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Lightning Breath can't be dodged, parried or blocked, only resisted (partial/full, I believe) or immune.
#2198SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Phanuel
Buffed up with ~1950 AP, Lightning Breath is hitting for around 180-190, so it's not terrible. But it's no 2.0 310+
#2199SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
xEw
I used the search function and didn't really find anything(and as you're not directed to the page respectively post your keyword was found in I avoided searching all 88sites of this thread), therefore I wanted to toss in the Mark of Conquest.

Inspired by this picture which says that the Mark of Conquest procs ~10% and therefore leads to 100mp5 when having a perfect (bm-)shotrotation(2 shots in 1,5 seconds; middled 150 Mana per proc) I got interested in this trinket. Cheeky told me that it probably has a hidden cooldown like the Hourglass of the Unraveller and so I shot down Dr. Boom a few times to determine whether there's a hidden cooldown and if how big it is.

In my tests a proc came most of the times in a timewindow of 17-25 seconds after the prior proc. Very few times it took longer than 35 seconds. But it never came faster than 15 seconds (this is what i can say for sure, 2 times i determined 13 and 14 seconds but I dumped it as human error as this hasn't happened more often) therefore I assume the MoC has a hidden cooldown of 15 seconds. Any comments/corrections/critic at this point is welcome.

Now i thought that if or if not the MoC has a hidden cooldown it doesn't matter as the proc has no duration like the one from the Hourglass of the Unraveller. If a procchance of 10% is determined, this is determined with a MoC with hidden cooldown and therefore hidden cooldown is taken into account of these 10%(as a proc during the cooldown isn't counted) - the procrate is still the same. The only point is that a procrate determined during farming isn't valuable because the hidden cooldown(which is quite low though) runs out during the killing blow of a mob and the first shot fired at the following mob. So the correct procrate must be determined by shooting at mobs with high hitpoint numbers. In my Dr. Boom sessions i came to 7-8% which still leaves quite amazing 80mp5 in the most ideal case(and to 61,2mp5 for a quite common unhasted attackspeed of 1,96).

If this is all well known by you guys I'm sorry for the interruption. Otherwise some discussion(or acknowledgment ) would be nice.


edit:
English isn't my native language, therefore grammar mistakes aren't done because I don't care about the forum rules. If there is bad grammar telling me this(and in the best case where exactly and what I should do better) would help very much. Giving me an infraction doesn't help me that much though.

Last edited by xEw : 08/28/07 at 8:41 AM.
#2200SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Greenpiggy
xEw - I think it was tested a while ago to be around 18 seconds, at least that tied in with my personal testing at the time.
That would tend to bring it in at around 40ish mana/5 which is roughly where Cheeky's spreadsheet has it so I assume he has tested and is aware of the internal CD
#2201SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Infused
Originally Posted by xEw View Post
Inspired by this picture which says that the Mark of Conquest procs ~10% and therefore leads to 100mp5 when having a perfect (bm-)shotrotation(2 shots in 1,5 seconds; middled 150 Mana per proc) I got interested in this trinket. Cheeky told me that it probably has a hidden cooldown like the Hourglass of the Unraveller and so I shot down Dr. Boom a few times to determine whether there's a hidden cooldown and if how big it is.

In my tests a proc came most of the times in a timewindow of 17-25 seconds after the prior proc. Very few times it took longer than 35 seconds. But it never came faster than 15 seconds (this is what i can say for sure, 2 times i determined 13 and 14 seconds but I dumped it as human error as this hasn't happened more often) therefore I assume the MoC has a hidden cooldown of 15 seconds. Any comments/corrections/critic at this point is welcome.

Mark of Conquest has been proccing on consecutive shots since the day I got it (no hidden proc CD).
My own testing (several hours of fun at Boom) with steady/auto leads to believe its worth ~33 mp5 on average.
#2202SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Giving Marks Another Try

I've been BM spec'ced for a while now, but recently gave Marksman spec another try. Although the information isn't strictly new to this thread, I thought it would be interesting to post my experiences as it would give a look at the BM spec with a reasonable amount of T6 gear, against T5 and T6 bosses. I wanted to retry Marks for the following reasons:

- Upcoming Scorpid nerf
- Current gear showed over 100+ additional spreadsheet DPS for Marks spec
- End T6 bosses are not pet-friendly (Archimonde, Council, Illidan)

I experimented with various levels of haste and settled on 2.45 attack speed. I did not use IAotH. Even with a decent bit of haste gear, getting down to 1:1 is not feasible except during DST procs (and I don't have a DST). It will become even less feasible after the nerf in 2.2.

I did Shahraz, Illidari Council, Illidan, and all of TK and SSC with this spec. I used a Wind Serpent as a pet. Admittedly, it took some time to get used to the 1.5:1 rotation again, and I certainly felt sluggish while I relearned this. I used a castsequence macro to fire Steady Shots immediately after auto shots, and manually threaded Arcane and Multi. During Rapid Fire I moved to a 1:1 rotation.

The results, unfortunately, were disappointing. My conclusions are as follows:

1. My damage as Marksman spec was lower in almost all cases (according to WWS).
2. Aggro distribution between you and your pet is an important advantage of BM spec. As Marks I was limited by aggro far more frequently.
3. Any manual threading you do cuts your DPS significantly, because you are compounding reaction time with latency. Even when only threading one shot every ~5 seconds you lose precious tenths of seconds of DPS time.
4. The latency hit you take by casting Kill Command as Marks spec is usually a net loss in damage (my latency is around 200ms).
5. Overall, latency has a much larger impact on a 1.5:1 rotation because you experience it 2x during the tightest part of your rotation.

Some possible optimizations are to try and sequence or use /castrandom for the tight part of the rotation and then manually weave the steady during the looser part. I don't think I'm going to play around with this much, though, as I doubt it will buy me anything. Time to sheath that Archimonde bow and spec back to BM!
#2203SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
xEw
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
xEw - I think it was tested a while ago to be around 18 seconds, at least that tied in with my personal testing at the time.
That would tend to bring it in at around 40ish mana/5 which is roughly where Cheeky's spreadsheet has it so I assume he has tested and is aware of the internal CD

I asked Cheeky and he said he hasn't tested it.
This should be no offense, but just saying "Well about 18 seconds cooldown and you say 60mp5 so it should be down at 40 - Yes! That's a value which could sound possible." is no theorycrafting at all. It's even less than a justified assumption.

I'm just trying to do some valuable and correct work from which other players will possibly profit. And so far the only statements I saw were some opinions of people who had the mark for one run equipped and didn't see their mana at 100% all the time and therefore said that it can't be that great. But there was no real theorycrafting so far.

As I said in my previous post: If you determine the procchance only in bossfights respectively fights against mobs with very much hp this procrate is correct and it's correct to do calculations with it. The hidden cooldown doesn't need to be taken into account, because the achieved procrate was determined with a mark that has this cooldown. If the cooldown is running there are no procs, therefore no procs counted. Hence the procchance is only determined through "times procced"/"shots fired", the achieved procchance is generally correct.

Any founded criticism on this is highly welcome. Any other sadly useless :/


@Infused:
Based on which calculation do you come to 33mp5? Or are you mm/surv specced?
The calculation I used is simple but makes sense(in my opinion):
With attackspeed of 1,96 you do 5/1,96 = 2,55 attackprocesses per 5 seconds. One attackprocess contains a steadyshot and an autoshot => 5,1 shots per 5 seconds. 8% of the shots lead to a proc of middled (128+172)/2 = 150 Mana => 5,1*0,08*150 = 61,2 mp5.
With rapidfire/dstproc etc it is possible to get an attackspeed of 1,5 => 6,67 shots per 5 seconds => 80 mp5.
And the no cd maybe comes from the times when the mark procced when you got ranged hit? I won't say there's no way that it has no cooldown, but I shooted down Dr. Boom several times for these tests and as I said the procs never came faster than 15seconds. Therefore I must have had tons of bad luck that this happened. But of course the chance exists.

If you find a systematical error please do correct me. As I said I'm only trying to do some correct, valuable work which then can be used by other players to get better.

Last edited by xEw : 08/29/07 at 8:42 AM.
#2204SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by xEw View Post
As I said in my previous post: If you determine the procchance only in bossfights respectively fights against mobs with very much hp this procrate is correct and it can be calculated with. The hidden cooldown doesn't need to be calculated in, because the achieved procrate was determined with a mark that has this cooldown. If the cooldown is running there are no procs, therefore no procs counted. Hence the procchance is only determined through "times procced"/"shots fired", the achieved procchance is generally correct.
For the person testing it, the proc chance should be good enough for it to be accurate in most cases, I think. Typically, I don't see you changing your rotation around a lot, and due to that your results should be fairly consistent (given a large enough sample).

The problem is with information like this it's hard to use data from e.g. a BM Hunter and apply it to a MM/Survival Hunter. It also doesn't work well with with haste procs.
E.g. although you with x shots per seconds you average y MP5, 2x shots per second will not give you 2y MP5.

Having both the internal cooldown and the actual proc chance (when not on cooldown) allows calculating the proc and the proc's effective value based on different specs, hastes and rotations.
#2205SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Sapa
Mark of Conquest is trinket that I use since I got it. We have done SSC/TK and 3/5 Hyall since then.
While I don't theorycraft its mana/5, I rather check WWS logs for hard data.

While I sure didn't check all fights, but in those that I did I believe I saw min 26 mana/5 and max 39mana/5 return. Number 32-35mana/5 poping up most commonly.

All those logs were made with different SV specs (from 7/20/33 to 0/20/41). Using either pure 1.5:1 or QS switch 1:1 rotation.
Most or all 30- results were from fights where I did extra stuff.... kitting/100% scorpid sting+1:1 rotation... (low rate of fire)
And that 37-39 results were mostly from fights where I was able to concentrate on 1.5:1 rotation 100%, all the time. (Mag with 0 cube clicking, Tidewalker, Void Reaver(with almost none orb dodging))

I haven't done this for quite some time now and with Recount time/activity + WWS, data gained should be more precise.

Sample TK+Grull Wow Web Stats
DPS time : ~76mn (~4560 seconds of dps time)
Mark of Conquest (Mana):27,845 ticks: 186
30.5 mana/5

Thats everything combined... trash where i kite stuff around for fun, pulling, jump shotting solarian while running to tanks, dodging orbs, and times of "perfect" 1.5:1 rotation.
#2206SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3volant
Like Sapa, I am Survival spec and have been using Mark of Conquest for a long time, based on what I see in my guild's WWS. It provides 30-36 mp5 for me in a typical boss fight, depending on luck and how often I have to stop firing for some reason.

I also use a Wind Serpent with the Bite ability, but it isn't on autocast. I use it as my attack key for the pet because it forces him into melee range and avoids chain casting Lightning Breath stupidity.
#2207SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Elvandir
I'm yet to encounter the "Back away to cast LB behaviour that many people seemed plagued by. From my observations the pet only back up if the target is imobilised or stunned, a kind of "Get Range" mechanic as LB has a range greater than melee, I'm fully prepared to accept the fact that I may be wrong, but that is my observation.
#2208SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Asmolicious
The issue is that as soon as he is in range he will cast 2 x LB, in this time he will have regened some focus and if you happened to have crit after the first went off he stays for a 3rd. It can get rather silly with a string or crits. I just bind LB to my steady shot button. Seeing as I steady shot ~2 seconds it keeps the LBs going without wasting full rage but seems to negate the 'hang back and cast LB all day' that can happen.

My big gripe with BM at the moment is the ammunition. I fill up my Quiver and have to buy ~ 2000 arrows to go in my bags just to make sure I don't run out of ammo on any given night and even then it's close at times.

Last edited by Asmolicious : 08/30/07 at 7:44 AM.
#2209SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Jemsky
Originally Posted by Asmolicious View Post
My big gripe with BM at the moment is the ammunition. I fill up my Quiver and have to buy ~ 2000 arrows to go in my bags just to make sure I don't run out of ammo on any given night and even then it's close at times.

Ran across that last night >.< , I took 8000 arrows just to be safe , seeing the gripes..I was left with 780 ( I loaned a fellow hunter about 800 too)

One of the major problems I ran into last night was keeping my scorp alive..it died so much , it just was not funny..

I was casting HOT pretty much as soon as the last one was up.. how do you BM hunters manage?
#2210SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Jemsky View Post
Ran across that last night >.< , I took 8000 arrows just to be safe , seeing the gripes..I was left with 780 ( I loaned a fellow hunter about 800 too)

One of the major problems I ran into last night was keeping my scorp alive..it died so much , it just was not funny..

I was casting HOT pretty much as soon as the last one was up.. how do you BM hunters manage?
Do you have avoidance trained and what fight was your pet dying on?
#2211SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
Always spec your pet for each instance.

SSC - Max Nature and Frost
TK - Fire and Arcane
Hyjal & BT - Fire and Shadow

Also rank 2 avoidance + your other pet skills then dump the rest into stamina.

Some fights are just rough for pets though; Azgalor, Archimonde, Illidan, Illidari Council and sometimes Gurtogg.
#2212SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Asmo is right that those fights are rough on pets. You can still get some use out of them, though.

Az'galor: pet on Doomguards assuming they are tanked out of range.
Gurtogg: ask your melee to stand away from pets. Unless you have a lot of melee, this will reduce the amount of Fel Acid damage on both your melee and your pet.
Illidari Council: send your pet against the priest if you have the range to do so, and be ready to pull the pet out when AoE hits.
Illidan: P1, adapt your pet's starting position according to how your tank handles Flame Crash. P2, you can micro to avoid blazes. P3+, you're screwed, but keep your pet to the side for TBW and absorbing Agonizing Flames.
Archimonde: You're screwed, but teach your decurses to decurse pets if they're not already, and use Imp. Mend Pet to do it yourself. If your pet dies, rez him since TBW'ing a fear is a huge benefit.
#2213SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Jemsky
Originally Posted by Asmolicious View Post
Always spec your pet for each instance.

SSC - Max Nature and Frost
TK - Fire and Arcane
Hyjal & BT - Fire and Shadow

Also rank 2 avoidance + your other pet skills then dump the rest into stamina.

Some fights are just rough for pets though; Azgalor, Archimonde, Illidan, Illidari Council and sometimes Gurtogg.
Avoidance 2 tick
Cobra Tick
TK full arcane and Fire Tick
Heals whenever it stopped ticking yes
Did my best to pull it out of the flame wreath things.. worst time on Solarian and Pre Kael trash, it just kept dying and then its hard to FD and feed it to make it happy and no buffs.. how do I avoid the darned pet dying?

I just respecced to BM two days ago.. am still struggling with it..

Last edited by Jemsky : 08/30/07 at 11:53 AM.
#2214SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
The trash in that place is horrible. It's not the trash where the DPS is vital though. Keep your pet at your side for the worst of the trash. A good trick to use if you have a Wind Serpent is to tie LB to steady shot and not send it in against the mob you're attacking. When you steady the Serpent will stay at range and just LB at a much safer distance. Pet gives you the 2% and you can still TBW on cooldown.

At the end of the day it is also just trash, it's the bosses that count Having locks and spriests lay DoTs on everything makes up for you not being able to use snuffles for a few pulls and it keeps them happy.
#2215SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Jemsky
Ah, okay time to take Sky out of the stable them, assume same goes for SSC as its equally awful on pets?

Thanks for the other advice on BT and Hyjal.. I'll need it in two weeks...

so the steady auto macro with LB is
/castsequence reset=3,Steady Shot,Auto Shot
/cast Lightning Breath[Rank6]
#2216SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
Eww cast sequence macro.

I use a macro to cast the LB before casting KC and steady. I have to weave the shots manually though because I play from the UK on US servers and suffer 200ms - 600ms latency variations often in the same boss fight.

I do beleive though that the macro you wrote should work as it looks familiar. I would encourage you to use manual weaving even in good latency. Once you get the hang of it you'll be better off for it.
#2217SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Jemsky
I only use the macro for steady's I can always manually spam KC and LB and try and weave in arcanes...>.< mana problems again though and I am going to replace [Bloodlust Brooch] with [Dragonspine Trophy]
#2218SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reipin Pillage
I guess I am very lucky then. My guild is up to Mother Shar and I get a shadow priest in all but two fights, najentus and bloodboil (although I got one last night for bloodboil!). My decursers take care of my pet without me asking as well.

Archimonde only gives me a problem if somehow a doomfire gets run through melee. With the timed fears it's pretty easy to break fears with TBW and if the pet is close to doomfires when a fear is upcoming I will pull him back by me where there are none to minimize the chance he gets killed. I just figure that having a fully buffed pet not dpsing for a couple of seconds is better then me having to res it and then send it back in buffless.

Without a Shadow Priest on Bloodboil an acid killed my pet but with a shadow priest, his ticks + my mend pet = no problem.

Since you mentioned Alar, I send my pet at A'lar during the first and fourth position (on the first "circle" I let him go to the second position as well). After phase 1 I use him primarily on the spawns and I watch him very closely if I send him on Alar and make sure he is not in patches. Remember you can always tell your pet to stay put rather then have him run back to you through a patch when Al'ar flies up for a dive bomb.
#2219SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Asmolicious View Post
I would encourage you to use manual weaving even in good latency. Once you get the hang of it you'll be better off for it.
I've seen this opinion posted several times. From my viewpoint, it's either focus on the game with my finger on the mouse wheel machine-gunning my steady/auto macro, or focus more on the quartz casting bar and focus less on the game. I'll still hit multi/arcane when they make sense, of course.

The choice to me seems obvious.
#2220SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
I've seen this opinion posted several times. From my viewpoint, it's either focus on the game with my finger on the mouse wheel machine-gunning my steady/auto macro, or focus more on the quartz casting bar and focus less on the game. I'll still hit multi/arcane when they make sense, of course.

The choice to me seems obvious.

I agree with Cranch. I have tried manually weaving my shots and using a macro along with my N52 gaming pad which is 1 button nonstop macro so i hit it once then hit it again when i want to shut the macro down and i do alot better with the macro then manually. My latency is around 150-175 most nights but i still seem to clobber autos when i try and do it manually. I almost try too hard when i weave manually vs the macro that makes sure i do a 1:1 rotation. Could i manually weave every night yes but it is super easy to hit 1 button to start and stop dps.
#2221SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Agree, manual weaving requires me to be able consistently perform actions with a 0.2 second window. I used to weave manually and when I switched to a macro I could simply feel my shots-per-second go up. Manual weaving in that tight of a window is possible but not sustainable and certainly would take the majority of my concentration. I feel sorry for Marks and Survival hunters whose DPS is consistently nerfed by this issue.
#2222SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
Personally I have not had the joy of playing in a 100ms-200ms consistent ping so can't really comment on using a macro to handle it for those levels of latency. I just go by what I have seen others say they prefer who do play in that band.

What I do know is that for higher latency macros for rotations are just painful as the macro has to ping back and forth to check whether to proceed to the next step and manual weaving is almost a must if you wish to optimisie your dmg rotation.
#2223SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Cyph-EU
Hi,

I Play BM (41/20/0) with the typical Auto/Steady macro without the KC cast.
I binded this macro to mouseweel and spamming it all the time. I don't use any arcan oder multi, only spamming the macro.
When I check my WWS logs i always see there are a lot more autoshots than steadyshots.
Can't realy understand this because the ratio should be 1:1 using this castsequence macro .. any ideas ? What went wrong ?
Typical FPS in fight about 10 and latency around 150.

Last edited by Cyph-EU : 08/31/07 at 5:50 AM.
#2224SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Alari
Hi,
I don't know, if it was asked before, however I didn't find it. So my question is, does the pet get also 22% of the RAP which I get through EW and HM? Or does it only get 22% of my Charscreen RAP?
#2225SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
Originally Posted by Cyph-EU View Post
Can't realy understand this because the ratio should be 1:1 using this castsequence macro .. any ideas ? What went wrong ?
How many more autos are you getting? Do you see a cast bar for every steady shot?

Originally Posted by Alari
I don't know, if it was asked before, however I didn't find it. So my question is, does the pet get also 22% of the RAP which I get through EW and HM? Or does it only get 22% of my Charscreen RAP?
I'm fairly certain that the the passive buffs your pet gains through your stats are purely taken from your personal buffed stats but not any of any debuffs on the enemy boosting mob specific damage stat. Else it would get confusing if you were to be attacking one mob with EW and HM while your pet was DPSing another which you weren't targeting.
#2226SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cyph-EU
The ratio auto/steady is nearly 2/1 .. i would understand it when i have to move a lot, but most of the time i stand at the same place, only spamming the macro.

I use littletrouble for the steadyshot castbar, often i see "failed" at the end of the cast.
But i thought this "failed" comes from spamming the macro and the new steady isn't rdy to shot at the time the "failed" message pops up in the castbar.
#2227SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Alari
Originally Posted by Asmolicious View Post
I'm fairly certain that the the passive buffs your pet gains through your stats are purely taken from your personal buffed stats but not any of any debuffs on the enemy boosting mob specific damage stat. Else it would get confusing if you were to be attacking one mob with EW and HM while your pet was DPSing another which you weren't targeting.
It would be also quite strange for me, and I personally think that the pet benefits only of the charscreen values, but I was wondering if anyone has tested this before.
#2228SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
Originally Posted by Cyph-EU View Post
The ratio auto/steady is nearly 2/1 .. i would understand it when i have to move a lot, but most of the time i stand at the same place, only spamming the macro.

I use littletrouble for the steadyshot castbar, often i see "failed" at the end of the cast.
But i thought this "failed" comes from spamming the macro and the new steady isn't rdy to shot at the time the "failed" message pops up in the castbar.
Could you post the macro you use?

It sounds like you are intercepting the cast time of your steady shots and replacing them with an auto a lot of the time.
#2229SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cyph-EU
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
#2230SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
Well my guild disbanded a few weeks ago so i went from a guild where we had void/Lurker down to a guild in Mt hyjal. Us BM hunters rulled the DM meters in my old guild but in my new guild we do pretty good in SSC but fall behind in TK for over all damage. Do other hunters see a drop off on the meter ranking in TK vs SSC?
#2231SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Well, anytime you have AoE (Solarian, potentially Kael'thas) Mage and Warlock damage will increase. More than likely the DPS'ers in your new guild have better gear and better skill than your old guild, which equalizes the meters a bit.
#2232SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Asmolicious
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
More than likely the DPS'ers in your new guild have better gear and better skill than your old guild, which equalizes the meters a bit.
Aye, sounds like the probable explaination. You may have been big fish in a small pond previously. Moving into a more progressed guild the players are likely to be better geared and more skilled than in the previous guild. You'll have to work harder for that #1 spot now . it's still possible to acheive on some fights but on others it won't be.

I had a similar experience but within the same guild. I went on a break for a few months, I was used to #1 spots on a regular basis on the damage meters before I left, came back undergeared and struggling for that same place. Getting the gear will help but some fights just don't lend themselves to you being able to compete with other classes for the #1.
#2233SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Also, if you ignore scorpid poison, melee DPS scales a bit better than we do at that level of gearing (although this is probably skewed because of haste procs and to a lesser extent haste).

Check some WWS of Teron Gorefiend, he seems to be a good end game tank and spank full DPS burn. Rogues are approaching or exceeding 2k DPS and hunters are capping out around 1500-1700 dps. Casters seem to be in a similar position as us however.

This may or may not be addressed by the upcoming changes to haste.
#2234SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Also, if you ignore scorpid poison, melee DPS scales a bit better than we do at that level of gearing (although this is probably skewed because of haste procs and to a lesser extent haste).

Check some WWS of Teron Gorefiend, he seems to be a good end game tank and spank full DPS burn. Rogues are approaching or exceeding 2k DPS and hunters are capping out around 1500-1700 dps. Casters seem to be in a similar position as us however.

This may or may not be addressed by the upcoming changes to haste.
If anything, the dps output of the melee will go down and ours will just stay mostly the same. The haste changes hurt BM hunters more than any other but its not a huge deal since we're always limited by that 1.5 second GCD.
#2235SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3jurgen
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
If anything, the dps output of the melee will go down and ours will just stay mostly the same. The haste changes hurt BM hunters more than any other but its not a huge deal since we're always limited by that 1.5 second GCD.
I thought the consensus on these forums was that of all hunter specs, BM suffers the least from haste nerf? Wasn't that the point of Cheeky's comparison in another thread?

When I say haste nerf, I mean haste nerf as it relates to the DST.
#2236SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
I thought the consensus on these forums was that of all hunter specs, BM suffers the least from haste nerf? Wasn't that the point of Cheeky's comparison in another thread?

When I say haste nerf, I mean haste nerf as it relates to the DST.
My point was that most of the time haste (especially from the DST) puts BM Hunters shot speeds below the GCD. Changing the haste rating is going to largely not effect BM Hunter cycle times. Passive haste from T6 gear isn't as extreme as the DST is, I still see it more as a "tuning" mechanism to achieve a shot speed BM Hunters are comfortable threading with.
#2237SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3orsraunia
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
Dont you think its plain wrong that they start putting haste on so many items that if you pick up more than a few you suddenly come to a point where first rapid fire is useless, then come to a point where IAotH is useless and finally if you stack enough you might even come to the point where adding another item with haste will gain you nothing? ( I dont think its possible to get that much haste yet, but I still think its a stupid design seen in regards to how our mechanics are)
None forces you to use all the items that give haste rating. In fact, i would like to see more high end items that give haste rating, so one can follow the haste path and have better control over his attack speed. Without haste, our only way to adjust our attack speed is the selection of our bow and that doesn't give us a lot of options.

With a 2,52 modified attack speed (2,9 attack speed bow, +15% quiver), a non-BM hunter will usually go down the path of 6-4 (specials-autos) in a total of about 10,56sec (theoretical value, not taking into account latency, response time, e.t.c.).

If there were enough items giving haste, it would be worthwhile one to try and get his attack speed down to about 1,7-1,8. Then he could switch to a 1-1 rotation, meaning that he would be able to fire 6-6 in the same time, that now fires 6-4. Of course that would require a lot of items giving haste and additionally haste rating mechanics for physical dps are adjusted in the upcoming patch, so all these i say are mere theory and something we won't see in the near future. But still, it doesn't mean that this would damage the effectiveness of IaotH and Rapid Fire on all occasions. Depending on the situation you can, for example, let only autos fire and use KC, when you are too much hasted. Especially if you see that you are running low on mana, you just let autos fire and regenerate a bit.

Finally, something that is not very important now, but maybe in the future. The hasted hunter of the above example, switched to a 1-1 rotation, firing the same specials, but 2 more auto shots and additionally, he fired 2 more shots in overall. This means that he will benefit more from present and future talents, abilities, items that proc on chance to hit, crit, e.t.c. Additionally, keep in mind that steady shot and arcane shot are not modified by arrow's dps, while auto shots are. So as we get better and better arrows, having that 2 extra autos instead of some more AP and crit will have more impact. These things might seem little details but in my opinion, they count. Tt seems better to me managing to fire 2 extra autos in 10,5secs instead of having some more AP and crit.

Bottom line, i'd like to see more items giving haste rating and some high end bows with faster attack speed, so we can get better control of our character customization, style of play and performance. What is the purpose ? 1,5 attack speed as MM, 1-1 rotation, 14 shots fired in about 10,5sec. But i don't think that we'll see such a thing in the near future as, in my opinion, it would improve our dps a lot, maybe to a point where we would be considered an overpowered class.
#2238SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
qu-
Just tested the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness and it remains unchanged. I had a proc that lasted 22 seconds and refreshed itself 3 times. Seems to have been a 30% uptime with just a quiver. Limited testing tbh but I just wanted to see if it had an internal cooldown making it pretty worthless. Sorry if someone already posted this.

Edit: The icon actually changed to Mark of Tyranny if anyone cares.

Last edited by qu- : 09/03/07 at 5:24 AM.
#2239SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3sasukekun
Originally Posted by qu- View Post
Just tested the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness and it remains unchanged. I had a proc that lasted 22 seconds and refreshed itself 3 times. Seems to have been a 30% uptime with just a quiver. Limited testing tbh but I just wanted to see if it had an internal cooldown making it pretty worthless. Sorry if someone already posted this.
Good to know, hopefully it stays that way.
#2240SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cevil
I always saw haste for hunters primarily as a stat for MM/Survival hunters to replace the hit they don't need because of talents. As a BM hunter is the one tree of the three most dependent on +hit, I thought it was excellent to give MM/Survival builds something to complement the AP/Agi/Crit stat, and something that allows their current stats to scale better.

I'm currently BM, and I'm using 2pc haste gear, and sunfury over serpent spine to push my attack speed down to 1.96. I'm planning for post-patch haste to bring it down to somewhere aroudn 2.04 or so; I'm not doing the math at the moment, but iirc that's what the PTR said. I won't go past the 1.96 I have, but I'll need one more piece to get back there post-patch, and that's my comfort zone. I do not have a DST (I'm the guild leader/raid leader, and the one day I'm late, they do Gruuls because it's easy, and it drops! Oh the irony! but I do use rapid fire as much as possible, and I do feel I'm eating into my shot rotation just a little bit with this much haste, when popping rapid fire.

But I do think haste is what makes MM/Surv viable again. Again, to me, the allure of BM is, yes, the pet damage, but also the speed and efficiency at which you can pump out shots. Haste, to me, was the way to outscale Serpent's Swiftness as MM/Survival. However, that was pre-2.2 Post 2.2, I'm not so sure anymore.

If the nerf goes thru, and all indications are that it will, I too would either like to see pieces retuned, or more haste options added, so that it becomes a viable stat to allocate for MM/Survival hunters. As BM, I'm using it lightly, and to be honest am happy with where I am at re: haste at the moment. But I'd love to see the day when you can gear up as MM/Surv and get a 2.2 shot timer, and benefit from the AP and crit gains MM/Surv grants you.

Maybe I'm way off-base, but it seems that the deeper into BT I get, the less my pet scales, and the only benefit I'm getting from BM is Serpent's Swiftness. I'm taking that, and the haste on gear, as subtle signs that MM is the spec of the T6 hunter.

Please, please correct me if I'm wrong.
#2241SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fola
Originally Posted by sasukekun View Post
Good to know, hopefully it stays that way.


Wouldn't this trinket need to have an uptime of 42% just to reach the bloodlust brooch?

Brooch
passive 72 AP
20 sec on use of 278 AP (46 AP normalized over 120 sec)
Total = 118 AP

Ashtounge Talisman of Swift
15% chance at 275 AP for 8 sec

118/275 = 42.9%

So question is as I don't have it, is it 42.9% uptime in a raid setting?
#2242SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fola
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
If anything, the dps output of the melee will go down and ours will just stay mostly the same. The haste changes hurt BM hunters more than any other but its not a huge deal since we're always limited by that 1.5 second GCD.
I also am confused at this supposition. As a BM hunter I have a ton of wasted Haste, as the spec that has the most wasted Haste I would surmise that it would be hurt the least through a Haste retune (nerf). If you would like to expound on the logic that lead you to your conclusion I would be interested to hear it.
#2243SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Jemsky
Since +hit is the BM hunters most favoured hit gear , I am assuming we now need 144 Hit rating to miss very little?

Secondly, BM hunters.. Archimonde is a pain, a serious pain to keep the pet alive.. FI is very hard to put up.. I am waiting for the patch so that I can get a ravager instead of a wind serpent since it flaps about like crazy

Any suggestion on which pet is best ?

Last edited by Jemsky : 09/04/07 at 10:01 AM.
#2244SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Keltan
Originally Posted by Jemsky View Post
Any suggestion on which pet is best ?
Ravagers, Cats, and Raptors are your best bet for "highest damage pet." Gore is slightly better than Claw, so a Ravager is something like 5-10 dps (pre-mitigation) higher than a Cat/Raptor.

Misc. info:
*Tameable level 70 Ravagers go in next patch.
*Raptors get Dash next patch.
#2245SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Talut
I am hearing the proc rate on the DST is nerfed on the PTR by 50%. Anyone confirm?
#2246SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Spiry
Originally Posted by Jemsky View Post
Since +hit is the BM hunters most favoured hit gear , I am assuming we now need 144 Hit rating to miss very little?
I always assumed the hit cap for hunters was 136. Now this could be my second minor error in the second thread I posted about it (previosuly I commented that 86HR was the cap for 3/3 Surefooted, when it's actually 89), but I've been sitting at 144 HR since I got my [Ring of Lethality], wondering if I should resocket a few pieces of gear.
#2247SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Jemsky View Post
Since +hit is the BM hunters most favoured hit gear , I am assuming we now need 144 Hit rating to miss very little?

Secondly, BM hunters.. Archimonde is a pain, a serious pain to keep the pet alive.. FI is very hard to put up.. I am waiting for the patch so that I can get a ravager instead of a wind serpent since it flaps about like crazy

Any suggestion on which pet is best ?
I find with the "new" changes to archimonde keeping the pet up is not hard at all assuming people don't run doomfires through the melee.

You can pre-emptively negate a fear by using TBW as archimonde is casting fear and when it is down, you know when a fear is coming so if pet is near a doomfire recall him to you. Your pet definitely is not a fire and forget deal on archimonde, not that he can DPS 100% of the time, but with a little work you can keep him from dying.

Here are two logs with the pet not dying (pet died at under 10% since it doesnt get immune shield.

Wow Web Stats Pet DPS time was 85% of presence.

Loading... This is a worse attempt but pet didn't die again till after Archimonde was at 10%.

I use a cat. My decursers take grip off my pet.
#2248SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3b1977
DPS

I raided last night and my DPS was only 456 sustained. I don't understand why my dps is so low compared to similarly geared in my guild. I am throwing Auto, and Steady and a few arcanes out there but can't seem to crack 500. What am I doing wrong?

The Armory
#2249SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Grogzor
Originally Posted by b1977 View Post
I raided last night and my DPS was only 456 sustained. I don't understand why my dps is so low compared to similarly geared in my guild. I am throwing Auto, and Steady and a few arcanes out there but can't seem to crack 500. What am I doing wrong?

The Armory

Were you weaving your shots or just throwing them in haphazardly? Was that DPS over the entire night or one particular fight? Were you using your pet? If you were using your pet, was its damage included in yours? Lots of questions that need answering.
#2250SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cevil
Originally Posted by Talut View Post
I am hearing the proc rate on the DST is nerfed on the PTR by 50%. Anyone confirm?
The numbers I have seen from people on other forums is it going from a 40% uptime on rogues to a 25% uptime on rogues. Whether this is a nerf to DST, or a result of the nerf to ppms no longer benefiting from haste, I can't tell. However, it seems like a rather large gap to be just the ppm nerf alone causing it.

I'm sure the data will start pouring in over the next few days.
#2251SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by b1977 View Post
I raided last night and my DPS was only 456 sustained. I don't understand why my dps is so low compared to similarly geared in my guild. I am throwing Auto, and Steady and a few arcanes out there but can't seem to crack 500. What am I doing wrong?

The Armory
There is a hunter help thread for this sort of question. Please post there, we would like to keep this thread clear for theory.
#2252SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3b1977
Sorry

Ok Will do
#2253SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3qu-
It is 142 hit rating to not miss according to current testing (9% hit). You'll find it pretty tough to resocket 2 hit rating I think.
#2254SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Darklighter
Forgive me if that has been brought up already - I found some posts on it but they didn't fully answer my question - if your pet is a cat, would it be best to use claw and bite or just claw? Are the extra training points worth getting both? Should you spam them manually (which would get preference with the GCD)?

I'm probably going to switch to BM sometime in the future, but it will most likely be after the scorpid nerf. This question was bugging me. Thanks!
#2255SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3qu-
Pretty sure most people train both and leave both on autocast. Drag bite to the left of the pet bar and claw to the right of that. Should do the most special damage that way.
#2256SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Female Tauren
While theoretically the 2.7 speed weapons are better for BM, I'm guessing with good use of haste pots/abacus and multi shot, the slower weapons should come out ahead even w/o a DST.

I'm not sure how to include haste potions into Cheeky's spreadsheet, has anyone done tests on this?
#2257SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Velvet
Problems understanding the Theorycrafting

After having gone through most of the posts in this thread and other threads, it seems as if it's geared towards those that have already gotten SSC and beyond on some sort of farm status. This is all good and well, but I'm at a loss to really find and comprehend information that is beneficial to someone like myself that is working on Kara/Gruul's.

I love my BM hunter, and am absolutely open to any and all suggestions on how to prove that hunters are worthy of being in raids..if only I could find information that I can understand and use. I somehow doubt that this is the thread to ask in, but where do I find such information and such help? I've been trying to find a hunter that understands all this to sit down with me and explain it, but alas I have failed. Please point me in the right direction so for once I can stop being at the bottom of the dps chart and yet explain why I should be allowed to continue raiding.

Velvetlove - Limited Edition/Cenarius
#2258SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Belaq
The gear discussed here is mostly 25 man-related, but the theorycraft portion of it is across the board sound...at least in my opinion. I can understand how it can be overwhelming though because it is to me, too!

IMHO, spec first. Which suits you best? Look at your trees, make sure you're plugging in points where they will benefit you - and the raid - the most. Then look at gear, including enchants and gems. Do you understand how choosing, say, a +35 Agility enchant will affect your stats versus the +70 AP enchant? Keep in mind that some gear is better for certain flavours of hunter. Take a look at shot rotations. Do you understand how they work? Why they work? Which is best for your spec/gear? What affects your rotation positively, and negatively?

Being able to answer these questions even on a pretty simple basis implies knowledge of your class and a willingness to learn even more. If you can get a solid understanding of these kinds of things (again, in my opinion) then you've got a nice base to work from. The extreme number-crunching is fun but you can leave that to Cheeky while you get the bread and butter down pat.
#2259SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Fimbo
Originally Posted by qu- View Post
Pretty sure most people train both and leave both on autocast. Drag bite to the left of the pet bar and claw to the right of that. Should do the most special damage that way.
That's a new one on me!

Why does this make a difference? Does it set the "cast order" for the pet?


For my BM pet (a cat) i train her pretty much every day with:

Bite
Claw
Dash
Avoidance
Cobra Reflexs
(And Growl for soloing)
Then I stack whatever resistence is needed, and spend the final remaining points on Stamina.

But i've never ordered Bite and Claw specifically.
#2260SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Olgas
Originally Posted by qu- View Post
It is 142 hit rating to not miss according to current testing (9% hit).
This is correct. If you have the standard Weapon Skill for a Level 70 character (i.e., 350 Weapon Skill), then your base miss rate against a level 73 boss/mob is 9%. And, so, you need 142 hit rating (9.005%) to never miss.

However, if you are a Dwarf with a Gun or a Troll with a Bow (and therefore have 355 Weapon Skill), then you only need 6% (95 Hit Rating) to never miss against a Level 73 boss/mob.
#2261SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Olgas View Post
This is correct. If you have the standard Weapon Skill for a Level 70 character (i.e., 350 Weapon Skill), then your base miss rate against a level 73 boss/mob is 9%. And, so, you need 142 hit rating (9.005%) to never miss.

However, if you are a Dwarf with a Gun or a Troll with a Bow (and therefore have 355 Weapon Skill), then you only need 6% (95 Hit Rating) to never miss against a Level 73 boss/mob.
Thank you for confirming what I have observed. Guns, lots of guns!

It's hard enough for me to keep my 93 hit rating there and still minmax my dps gear (I'll get 2 T5 pieces and end up losing about 15-20 dps over the max possible dps if I could somehow keep my hit rating at 95.) This has got to be a significantly more difficult problem for people who want 130 or more hit rating and still in SSC/TK.
#2262SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reipin Pillage
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Thank you for confirming what I have observed. Guns, lots of guns!

It's hard enough for me to keep my 93 hit rating there and still minmax my dps gear (I'll get 2 T5 pieces and end up losing about 15-20 dps over the max possible dps if I could somehow keep my hit rating at 95.) This has got to be a significantly more difficult problem for people who want 130 or more hit rating and still in SSC/TK.
I had all the hit rating I needed with T5...
#2263SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
My my new guild has reached BT and has 2 bosses down, the mail haste pattern has already drop and there is only 1 raiding LW hunter who got the pattern. My question is with the changes to haste is it still the best stat to stack for a BM or MM hunter. Off the top of my head you can get about 13% haste with all the drop/patterns available which use to be almost 19.5% haste before the change. So is haste still a great stat to stack and it is worth leveling LW over to get the patterns that drop.
#2264SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3qu-
Originally Posted by Belaq View Post
The gear discussed here is mostly 25 man-related, but the theorycraft portion of it is across the board sound...at least in my opinion. I can understand how it can be overwhelming though because it is to me, too!

IMHO, spec first. Which suits you best? Look at your trees, make sure you're plugging in points where they will benefit you - and the raid - the most. Then look at gear, including enchants and gems. Do you understand how choosing, say, a +35 Agility enchant will affect your stats versus the +70 AP enchant? Keep in mind that some gear is better for certain flavours of hunter. Take a look at shot rotations. Do you understand how they work? Why they work? Which is best for your spec/gear? What affects your rotation positively, and negatively?

Being able to answer these questions even on a pretty simple basis implies knowledge of your class and a willingness to learn even more. If you can get a solid understanding of these kinds of things (again, in my opinion) then you've got a nice base to work from. The extreme number-crunching is fun but you can leave that to Cheeky while you get the bread and butter down pat.
It's just what I've heard. Whether it makes a difference or not I cannot be sure but it seems to make sense. Since gore/claw are less focus and have no cooldown they will be used up faster and use more focus (obviously). So you really want to make sure bite is going off when there is enough focus if you used the points to train it. Maybe the game uses it by itself I don't know. Just something I read somewhere and probably isn't true but doesn't hurt either I guess.
#2265SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Repus
I've been wondering because trolls get +5 bow skill does that mean we only need 5.6% hit rating then? I heard 1 skill was .6% is this true?
#2266SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Bowinana
Originally Posted by Repus View Post
I've been wondering because trolls get +5 bow skill does that mean we only need 5.6% hit rating then? I heard 1 skill was .6% is this true?
Try reading a few posts up its all said right there - but ye less skill needed.

What nelf hunter doesnt wish he had rolled troll now?
#2267SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Olgas
Originally Posted by Repus View Post
I've been wondering because trolls get +5 bow skill does that mean we only need 5.6% hit rating then? I heard 1 skill was .6% is this true?
There has been a lot of testing done on these forums regarding miss rate and the effect of Weapon Skill. Please see

[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion

If you want a summary of the work to date, start with post #500 and read forward from there.
#2268SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Grogzor
Assumptions:

Cheeky's Spreadsheet is Correct
41/20/0
All RAPs and Crit% are preraid buffed but the DPS values include the listed values plus the increases from the following buffs: Blessing of Kings(on pet as well), Improved Blessing of Might(on pet as well), Improved Mark of the Wild(on pet as well), Ravager Dog, Flask of Relentless Assault.
Normal 1:1 Shot Rotation with Kill Command.
Pet=Raptor

I started at 1800 RAP and 20% Crit% and worked from there using 50AP and 1% Crit increments. (1900/22 would be 6 steps away from 1800/20 because you have 4 increments of 50RAP and 2 increments of 1 Crit%)


RAP Crit DPS # of steps away from 1800/20
1650 20 1810.39 -3
1700 19 1810.37 -3
1750 18 1809.25 -3
1800 17 1807.58 -3
1800 18 1826.26 -2
1750 19 1827.54 -2
1700 20 1828.30 -2
1750 20 1845.62 -1
1800 19 1844.71 -1
1750 21 1862.42 0
1800 20 1862.95 0
1850 19 1861.88 0

1800 21 1879.90 1
1800 22 1895.50 2
1800 23 1910.92 3
1800 24 1926.16 4

1850 20 1880.27 1
1850 21 1897.37 2
1850 22 1913.13 3
1850 23 1928.70 4
1850 24 1944.10 5

1900 20 1897.59 2
1900 21 1914.85 3
1900 22 1930.76 4
1900 23 1946.49 5
1900 24 1962.04 6

1950 20 1914.91 3
1950 21 1932.32 4
1950 22 1948.39 5
1950 23 1964.27 6
1950 24 1979.97 7

2000 20 1932.23 4
2000 21 1949.80 5
2000 22 1966.02 6
2000 23 1982.06 7
2000 24 1997.91 8

2050 20 1949.55 5
2050 21 1967.27 6
2050 22 1983.65 7
2050 23 1999.84 8
2050 24 2015.85 9

2100 20 1966.87 6
2100 21 1984.75 7
2100 22 2001.28 8
2100 23 2017.62 9
2100 24 2033.78 10

2150 20 1984.19 7
2150 21 2002.22 8
2150 22 2018.91 9
2150 23 2035.41 10
2150 24 2051.72 11

Using this chart I created the following Table. (Sigh...Paint For The Loss I guess)


It seems that BM hunters that stack up to 30% crit could do even better by trading in a bunch of that crit for RAP. But here is a window of the "sweet spot" for hunter dps.
Attached Thumbnails
untitled.jpg  
#2269SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3skarg
Scope

There is much discussion about this on the regular hunter forums, but I wanted to check here for a more difinitive answer. Can anyone say for sure that the crit scope is without a doubt superior to the 12 damage scope?
#2270SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Houze
Originally Posted by Grogzor View Post
Assumptions:

Cheeky's Spreadsheet is Correct
41/20/0
.
.
.
.
Using this chart I created the following Table. (Sigh...Paint For The Loss I guess)


It seems that BM hunters that stack up to 30% crit could do even better by trading in a bunch of that crit for RAP. But here is a window of the "sweet spot" for hunter dps.
I'm not sure what you want to achieve with your calculations.
The only thing you see is what a 50*X attack power or/and Y% crit increase will result in on your characters dps.
Some notes:
-If you want to compare for gear upgrades you should consider the item-stat value, 22.08 critrating = 1% crit = 44.16 attack power for your increments, or stick with the 50 ap and change the crit increments to 1.13%. Agility often shows to be a fun stat to modell with and without buffs, for example, 16ap gems often gives a better result on a unbuffed hunter while 8 agi (and 8 crit in some cases) gives a better result when including buffs like BoK,BoM and Flask because most buffs increase attackpower much more then they increase crit and by then making crits more valueble.
-Weapon damage and ammo damage will affect the damage contribution of crits, so with a better weapon more crits are preferable over extra attack power.
- Diffrent pets will scale diffrent with crit versus attack power, for example a Wind Serpent wants a realy high amount of GftT procs (prossible 42-43% critrate with 1 attack/second) to keep LB spamming while a cat or a ravager doesn't need more then maybe 15-20% crit to keep up with claw/gore.
- To be able to use KC after each cooldown you want a decent amount of crit, 25% crit will give you a (1 - 0.75^5) 76.3% chance to use KC after the 5 seconds cooldown when shooting 5 shots during the cooldown.


Originally Posted by skarg View Post
There is much discussion about this on the regular hunter forums, but I wanted to check here for a more difinitive answer. Can anyone say for sure that the crit scope is without a doubt superior to the 12 damage scope?
The damage scope are a flat amount added to 3 shots, auto-shot, multi-shot and aimed shot while the crit scope will add crits for all you're ranged attacks and also procs things like EW,GftT,KC.
As the damage scope adds a flat amount of damage it will benefit a faster weapon more, it's damage are affected by damage modifiers like FI and RWS but 5% extra on 12 damage are more or less nothing. Damage scopes doesn't scale with attack power, but crit's will affect it, it will add 2.3*12=27.6 damage on auto-shots with Mortal Shots talent on a crit so with 100% crit you will get about 13 dps (27.6 damage / 2.1 attack speed) increase on you auto-shots.

There should be a number of posts here and at the Blizzard forum with calculations showing that the crit scope are superior to damage scope. If you don't wanna dig through those posts, test the outcome in Cheeky's spreadsheet, you will only find that the damage scoop are better in a very few (and highly rare) cases like using a extremly fast weapon and only shooting auto-shots, having a very low amount of attack power (a naked hunter more or less) or having an already insane amount of crit (havn't checked but probarly above 95% crit or so).

In any normal case the crit-scope will give a better dps increase.

Last edited by Houze : 09/09/07 at 8:36 AM.
#2271SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Grogzor
Thanks for the advice. I was trying to do different things before reading your post such as wind serpent and higher DPS weapons but am now going to have to go back and redo them.

The graph I made for the higher DPS weapon was only shifted up slightly so my hypothesis is it will probably only shift the new graph up and to the left one block. (That is going from a 80-100 dps weapon by the way)

Also for Wind Serpents, I noticed a very sharp climb with the old 50/1 increments so I am also guessing the climb will be further exaggerated from the 44/1 increments.
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#2272SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Female Tauren
I would really appreciate some advice on the Leotheras and Vashj encounters.

Last week was my first lockout with a new raid group, and first time seeing Leo and Vashj.

I did pretty good on Karathress, topping the dps meter, but when it comes to the other 2, I totally sucked.

I think a major problem is not getting enough dps time, BM's shorter range really shows during Leo, I had to do a lot of running to get in range after inner demons and dodging WWs. I also did not use my pet as much as I could in fear of WWs. The result was getting beat on dps by our surv hunter.

I was pretty clueless on Vashj as well. I did ok(I think) killing elementals, but when they didn't spawn I just stood there doing nothing. Should I helped dps on the other adds? I was afraid an elemental would spawn behind me while I out of range dpsing elites/striders. I also had problems killing bats during phase 3.

Is BM supposed to suck on these fights, or am I doing something wrong?

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#2273SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Bloodwrath
It seems that BM hunters that stack up to 30% crit could do even better by trading in a bunch of that crit for RAP
While you included might and kings here did you also include the effect from hunters mark? The raw AP from hunters mark at 440RAP on a boss changes the scales significantly on a boss fight so much so that i find if i drop below 30% crit as a BM hunter my dps goes down (ok i know anecdotal)

If a BM hunter using only self buffs ie hawk has 1600 RAP his effective RAP versus a mob he shoots to full stacks of hunters mark is actually 2040 RAP and looking over your list there with 2150 being the top end scale of your dps list then stacking crit even at lower RAP levels like 1600 is not going to be a bad thing on bosses
#2274SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Grogzor
I believe Cheeky's spreadsheet accounts for Hunter's Mark.

Those APs and crit% I listed were before being raid buffed and the DPS numbers include raid buffed that are independent of what party you are in. So if it say the hunter has 2100 AP that is what he has before he includes Flask and Blessing of Might and such but the DPS that is listed accounts for those so that the hunter would have an effective 3k RAP if Hunter's Mark is included.

This allows people to see what they will be at raid buffed because we all know crit% is worth more at that end.
#2275SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post

Is BM supposed to suck on these fights, or am I doing something wrong?

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Your damage output totals on Vashj are really poor. I'm not sure what duty you're on but I'm assuming that you are on Elementals during all of phase 2. Being BM on Vashj is fine but brutal sometimes because of lack of large burst on the elementals when TBW isn't up and the fact that phase 3 requires you to help kill bats. Again, your range is a hinderance to that duty quite a bit.

There should not be a single time where you are not doing damage on the Vashj fight. All of phase 1 is pure DPS, all of phase 2 is constantly handling a quadrant and dpsing adds. I handle an entire quadrant solo without an issue. We only use 4 ppl for elemental duty. I take the center. On phase 3 I shift to finish off any elites / striders and move to dps vashj as well as killing bats the second they come overhead (only for 4 bats then I forget about them), after that just dps vashj for the remainder.
#2276SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3qu-
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Your damage output totals on Vashj are really poor. I'm not sure what duty you're on but I'm assuming that you are on Elementals during all of phase 2. Being BM on Vashj is fine but brutal sometimes because of lack of large burst on the elementals when TBW isn't up and the fact that phase 3 requires you to help kill bats. Again, your range is a hinderance to that duty quite a bit.

There should not be a single time where you are not doing damage on the Vashj fight. All of phase 1 is pure DPS, all of phase 2 is constantly handling a quadrant and dpsing adds. I handle an entire quadrant solo without an issue. We only use 4 ppl for elemental duty. I take the center. On phase 3 I shift to finish off any elites / striders and move to dps vashj as well as killing bats the second they come overhead (only for 4 bats then I forget about them), after that just dps vashj for the remainder.
Your damage on Vasjh is really dependent on how many elementals spawn on your side. If you're not getting a lot then you won't be doing much damage. If you're grouped with someone else you'll do even less. I've done the whole fight solo killing bats and the entire west side of elementals. Gear obviously helps but you only really need t5 to do it.

For Leotheras I'm always 1 or 2 on damage done. It's the only fight I take blessing of salv on (besides stage2/3 reliquary).
#2277SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3preacherman23
I am curious on what you guys think are the best stats for BM hunters to get the most DPS out of you and your pet. My guild says attack power what do you guys think?
#2278SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3qu-
AP is the only direct way of increasing your pet's dps. Crit will increase it because you get more focus from GFTT but it's always going to be agility (ap/crit) that you want (and hit for yourself). I could be wrong though.
#2279SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Furo
Originally Posted by preacherman23 View Post
I am curious on what you guys think are the best stats for BM hunters to get the most DPS out of you and your pet. My guild says attack power what do you guys think?
I suggest you read this entire thread from start to finish. It's full of discussion on the basics. But for the most part, the math says 1 agility is superior to 2 attack power. Also check out Cheeky's spreadsheet.
#2280SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaladian
They have yet to beat Vashj yet i doubt he can do a quadrant solo. We have SSC on farm and we still use 2 per quad. And being BM sucks for killing bats. The lack of extra range really hurt there.
#2281SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
It is still possible to integrate Hawkeye into a BM build. Try 46/12/3 or 41/17/3.
#2282SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Carbeaux
I don't think, you can allow yourself not to skill those 3 points in more crit dmg.
At 25% crit those three points are worth 2.25% of your dmg, gftt & kc opportunities not taken into account, with 30% crit it would be 2.7%.

Those 2.25% dmg should be roundabout 1.6% of your overall dmg, assuming you are lazy and your pet does 40% of your dmg.

Last edited by Carbeaux : 10/15/07 at 10:08 AM. Reason: typos grammar content
#2283SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Trohck
Yes, it's definitely a damage sacrifice. When I ran the numbers 5/5 Mortal Shots was around +8% DPS for me - definitely a huge benefit that should not be sacrificed lightly. However, on several encounters (ex. Vashj, Leotheras, Archimonde, Void Reaver, Illidan, Illidari Council) the extra range allows you to do things which may be considered more valuable than 8% DPS. In most cases this is taking less damage via giving your raid more breathing room when it comes to spreading out. This can definitely be compensated for with strategy, but that is a trade-off, not a clear-cut decision.

Range is also useful on a number of trash pulls.

Last edited by Trohck : 09/11/07 at 7:17 PM. Reason: OCD
#2284SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Female Tauren
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Your damage output totals on Vashj are really poor. I'm not sure what duty you're on but I'm assuming that you are on Elementals during all of phase 2. Being BM on Vashj is fine but brutal sometimes because of lack of large burst on the elementals when TBW isn't up and the fact that phase 3 requires you to help kill bats. Again, your range is a hinderance to that duty quite a bit.

There should not be a single time where you are not doing damage on the Vashj fight. All of phase 1 is pure DPS, all of phase 2 is constantly handling a quadrant and dpsing adds. I handle an entire quadrant solo without an issue. We only use 4 ppl for elemental duty. I take the center. On phase 3 I shift to finish off any elites / striders and move to dps vashj as well as killing bats the second they come overhead (only for 4 bats then I forget about them), after that just dps vashj for the remainder.
Since it was my first time seeing her, I got assigned to the easiest quadrant with a cat druid.

I think I spent more time idling than dps, which was pretty noob of me. The thing is when I tried to help kill the elites/striders, they were always out of range or on the other side of the platform. I did not want to risk missing a tainted because I abandoned my post to help dps.

Maybe I should ask to handle a more populated quadrant the next time?

Originally Posted by qu- View Post
For Leotheras I'm always 1 or 2 on damage done. It's the only fight I take blessing of salv on (besides stage2/3 reliquary).
Could you elaborate on how you manage that?

I missed a lot of dps time on him during WWs and transitions, (my raid asks us not to dps him during WWs, just run away). It takes me 20+ seconds to kill my ID, so I could improve on that, too.

I guess it's just a matter of experience + skill?

Last edited by Female Tauren : 09/11/07 at 10:15 PM.
#2285SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Pheir
So, prior to saying anything else, I apologize for not reading every post that was posted before my own.

Now then...
I've been BM through Kara, all that junk, just following in the footsteps of other hunters who have found the spec to be no less than awesome. I learned SSC as BM, topping damage meters on almost every fight, Hydross, (not lurker), Morogrim, Leo, ectectect, through vashj. Once TK rolled around, however, pets became utter trash until Kael himself - and I was able to keep myself at a respectable 2-5.

But Hunter Itemization is crap, we know this through and through, and Hunters aren't meant to be the top damage class. Now we're in Hyjal, 4/5, and BT with 4/9, and I cant break past being Number 5 - Granted, our guild has a prejeduce against hunters, so I get often coupled with warlocks, with no chance of a shadow priest or a feral druid. I don't mind this.

I switched to surv because of the added raid dps I can just help with - it's a synergy if you will. Survival not only boosts the dps of myself - because honestly, with ~800 agi unbuffed, depending on what i'm wearing, I can lay waste to almost any other class cept the warlocks themself. However, I burn through pots faster than an Arcane Mage, mainly because I do not recieve a shadow priest.

I say this all because... BM is very VERY merciful - meaning you can preform well without the gear - and you preform even better with the gear. But as with most things, there is a limit! As with the differentiate in calculus, BM has a limit - it's called gear. Once the gear gets so good, I believe it's up to the hunter to learn another spec, play another way... not because Blizz WANTED it, but because it's what works. Marks is great, don't get me wrong, but BM and Surv offer more to the raid as a whole...

In the end, BM hunters are great, very good, and most top guild hunters are still BM because honestly? It kicks ass. It's easy to do, no real hard work needed. I personally think that I can find a way to make surv just as good - If i cant, it's right back to BM for me.
#2286SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
Since it was my first time seeing her, I got assigned to the easiest quadrant with a cat druid.

I think I spent more time idling than dps, which was pretty noob of me. The thing is when I tried to help kill the elites/striders, they were always out of range or on the other side of the platform. I did not want to risk missing a tainted because I abandoned my post to help dps.

Maybe I should ask to handle a more populated quadrant the next time?



Could you elaborate on how you manage that?

I missed a lot of dps time on him during WWs and transitions, (my raid asks us not to dps him during WWs, just run away). It takes me 20+ seconds to kill my ID, so I could improve on that, too.

I guess it's just a matter of experience + skill?
With regards to Vashj - it sounds to me like your guild is assigning too many people to quadrant duty, you only really need 5 or maybe 6 people on the stairs, diverting a little strider dps to help mop up if someone has to play catchup after killing a tainted.
If I ever find myself with a lack of something to do in phase 2 i'll first look to help the two people on sectors around me and if there's nothing within a reasonable range, i'll jump up top to see if there's a strider about, you are correct in saying you should never stray far from your sector, missing a tainted amounts to a way bigger waste of dps than not dpsing a Naga on the far side for a couple of seconds before you have to rush back.
One other tip which is of use is that a Pet can *easily* solo an enchanted elemental while wrathed, which gives you much more breathing room and allows you to fight 2 simultaneously if you're in danger of getting overrun

Leotheras - two things on Leo - firstly make sure that your hunters are misdirecting to the tank on the key transitions, we always try and have a Misdirect ready for every time he exits demon form and every time he exits a whirlwind, that allows for much greater hunter dps as it goes some way to alleviating your early threatcap as well as allowing greater dps for others as well.
In addition, of all the classes, you can stay dpsing closer to the transitions than anyone else, Locks have to stop dots early so they don't go over transitions, mages have to stop at least 4 seconds before because of ignites, rogues have to run out early for whirlwinds and suchlike whereas all you have to account for is travel time of arrows, which is minimal, so watch the timers like a hawk and dps up to the last possible second, you always have your get out of jail free card(FD) if you think an arrow may be hitting after the transition.

A word on pets - the only thing which will kill your pet on Leo is Whirlwind, so all you need to do is find him a quiet spot right in the corner behind you where Leo will never go, put him on stay there, keep him on Leo full time and only retract him just before every whirlwind, sending him straight back in as soon as he is tanked.

Last edited by Greenpiggy : 09/12/07 at 5:09 AM.
#2287SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Originally Posted by Pheir View Post
Once the gear gets so good, I believe it's up to the hunter to learn another spec, play another way...
Even at low levels of gear, with a balanced raid Survival spec will contribute more raid DPS (not to be confused with personal DPS). A significant part of that contribution comes from Expose Weakness; if you don't have a Survival hunter at every raid then spec'cing Survival is the right decision. However, since EW doesn't stack, having 2 Survival hunters in a raid is a poor choice. That's where the BM hunters come in.
#2288SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3qu-
Could you elaborate on how you manage that?

I missed a lot of dps time on him during WWs and transitions, (my raid asks us not to dps him during WWs, just run away). It takes me 20+ seconds to kill my ID, so I could improve on that, too.

I guess it's just a matter of experience + skill?
It's just experience with the fight. I used to be absolutely terrible on it. Approached the fight in the same manner you probably do now. I basically found myself never dpsing. I got salv one day and just decided not to really ever stop. It worked great. I don't know why your guild says to stop dps during whirlwind because you don't have to. I know I always dps through it and only stop dps for about 3 seconds after whirlwind ends. Wait about 5 seconds on demon form (do not have your pet wait it won't rip or get hit by chaos blast) and use your cooldowns on this phase. Stop dps for a few seconds when it ends and repeat. For inner demon drop a snake trap, wing clip, intimidation and it should die with 5 shots.

Pheir, the majority of Hyjal and BT are amazing hunter fights and it's extremely easy to break the top 3. The same with TK. I don't know how you've been experiencing otherwise.
#2289SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Jokerzwyld
My guild is currently in Hyjal and Black Temple ( 2/5 and 4/9 right now ) and i have picked up 2 haste items currently and want to gather more. What i am wondering is at what point does it become too fast? If i can collect haste gear that would put MM speed near BM speed would the switch that i want to make into a reality for raiding or just a dream?

Currently my paper doll attack speed is down to 1.97 and my DPS has improved alot. I have looked at spreadsheets and other forums and would just like to throw this question out for the theorycrafters out there that would please offer me some of the information they can come up with this.

The Armory

That is my current Gear and any help would be great. Currently i am using a macro for Steady Shot / Auto Shot and i weave in MS and AS when the mana permits. Macro also uses KC when it is up.


Thank you in advance,

Jokerz
#2290SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
You're using a 1:1 shot rotation so your limiting factor is the 1.5 global cooldown. I'm also assuming you are using IAotH. Your attack speed should never drop below 1.5s + your latency, even when IAotH is active. If it's getting below that it's time to equip fewer haste items (or drop IAotH).

Keep in mind after the physical haste nerf in 2.2 you'll need more haste to achieve your current 2.1 attack speed.
#2291SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Jokerzwyld
That is what i was thinking with the 1:1 macro and getting to around 1.5 + Lag. Thanks for the verification.

And yea with the upcoming haste nerf i am hoping to stack up as much haste as i can to get MM down to the 2.1 range and see how it works.

Any thoughts on that anyone? Would it be possiable with Hyjal / BT gear to get the haste to pull it off and still have good stats for raiding?


Edit : also is the armor ignore off pieces ( trash drop neck and so forth ) worth looking into as a BM hunter over the other pieces? Or should i make the rogues happy and not bid on the Armor Ignore items?

Last edited by Jokerzwyld : 09/12/07 at 1:14 PM.
#2292SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Wearing every piece of haste gear avaialble to you with a 2.9 speed bow will get you to ~2.14/1.86 (IAotH) speed as Marks now, and post-patch it will be ~2.25/1.96 speed. So unless new haste gear is released in the patch, I don't see this as feasible. There would simply be too much dead time.
#2293SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 vank
I was just trying to figure out my values for the lootzor site, and I stumbled upon something odd. I used Cheeky's spreadsheet with all my current stuff (equipment, raid buffs, talents, etc.). I removed my melee weapon (Legacy) and instead created a custom weapon, first with 10 agility, then with 10 RAP, and so on. After each change I noted my DPS increase, then divided this value by ten to derive the DPS increase per point. What was surprising was that agility and crit rating both came out ahead of hit, even though I wasn't capped. This goes against what I had previously supposed, that hit (until capped) > agility > CR. Is my test flawed? Or are others finding this to be the case as well, and I just didn't get the memo.

For the record, my values came out to this (hunter + pet)
1 agi = .68 dps
1 RAP = .359
1 HR = .556
1 CR = .579
#2294SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Reipin Pillage
Also according to your ratings 2 AP > 1 agi, which is also against commonly accepted theories.
#2295SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cranch
Originally Posted by vank View Post
I was just trying to figure out my values for the lootzor site, and I stumbled upon something odd. I used Cheeky's spreadsheet with all my current stuff (equipment, raid buffs, talents, etc.). I removed my melee weapon (Legacy) and instead created a custom weapon, first with 10 agility, then with 10 RAP, and so on. After each change I noted my DPS increase, then divided this value by ten to derive the DPS increase per point. What was surprising was that agility and crit rating both came out ahead of hit, even though I wasn't capped. This goes against what I had previously supposed, that hit (until capped) > agility > CR. Is my test flawed? Or are others finding this to be the case as well, and I just didn't get the memo.

For the record, my values came out to this (hunter + pet)
1 agi = .68 dps
1 RAP = .359
1 HR = .556
1 CR = .579
These numbers are quite reasonable. Mine are (for a BM build, and using the 2.2 haste ratings, and fully raid-buffed, and assuming I am not capped)

1 agi = .851 dps
1 atk = .411 dps
1 crit = .655 dps
1 hit = .653 dps
1 haste = .852 dps
#2296SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by vank View Post
I was just trying to figure out my values for the lootzor site, and I stumbled upon something odd. I used Cheeky's spreadsheet with all my current stuff (equipment, raid buffs, talents, etc.). I removed my melee weapon (Legacy) and instead created a custom weapon, first with 10 agility, then with 10 RAP, and so on. After each change I noted my DPS increase, then divided this value by ten to derive the DPS increase per point. What was surprising was that agility and crit rating both came out ahead of hit, even though I wasn't capped. This goes against what I had previously supposed, that hit (until capped) > agility > CR. Is my test flawed? Or are others finding this to be the case as well, and I just didn't get the memo.

For the record, my values came out to this (hunter + pet)
1 agi = .68 dps
1 RAP = .359
1 HR = .556
1 CR = .579
They are very dependant upon current gear, talents and shot rotation. I believe the math is correct though, but I'd be interested in learning if you find a flaw in it somewhere.

Pets get 0 benefit from your +hit, but they do get additional Focus/KC from your crit. That is accounted for, and may swing the balance a bit.

Using my gear and your test (replacing [Sonic Spear] drops me 24 below the hit cap.)
+AP - 0.356
+Agi - 0.708
+crit - 0.636
+hit - 0.578

Those numbers are all without any buffs. Blessing of Kings will help Agility more than the others.
#2297SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 vank
The last thing I was doing is questioning your math. You 'da man. I just always remember hearing that Hit is king. I don't know if you recall that hunter AEP thread that was floating around a few months back. The conclusion was: hit (13), agi (10), crit (8), AP (6). The only things most people were debating was the value of intellect and MP5. Well after some calculations, it looks like hit isn't as highly valued as I'd previously been lead to believe.
#2298SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
 Glaurong
I did a similar thing, rather I set a custom offhand and incremented stats there.

1 Agi = 0.74 (0.63 personal, 0.11 pet)
1 AP = 0.37 (0.31 personal, 0.06 pet)
1 Crit = 0.65 (0.58 personal, 0.07 pet)
1 Hit = 0.49 (0.49 personal, 0.00 pet)
1 Haste = 1.22 (1.18 personal, 0.04 pet)

Edit: Using 2.2 haste values, haste drops to 0.81

Last edited by Glaurong : 09/12/07 at 3:01 PM.
#2299SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but wouldn't it be very easy to add this kind of calculation to the spreadsheet on a separate tab? You could establish ratios for each of the primary stat values to each other quite easily.
#2300SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Trohck View Post
I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but wouldn't it be very easy to add this kind of calculation to the spreadsheet on a separate tab? You could establish ratios for each of the primary stat values to each other quite easily.
It's nowhere near as easy as you'd think. There are hundreds of calculations performed to generate the DPS numbers. There is no way in hell I'm replicating them X times for every stat that could effect DPS. The maintenance would become a nightmare.

Look at all the math just in the Shot Rotation tab, factoring in the damage from each shot based on previous shot results (Talon of Alar, etc.) I wouldn't even want to rewrite this monster if I suddenly lost all copies of it, there's probably 1,000 hours of work in it right now. I'd just come up with something much, much simpler.
#2301SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
But you perform those calculations anytime someone makes a hand-adjust. Would it really be that hard to make a macro that populates a small matrix of the most important stats at user request?
#2302SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Couldn't you just macro it? Save dps numbers, swap stuff around, saving DPS numbers as you go?
#2303SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Couldn't you just macro it? Save dps numbers, swap stuff around, saving DPS numbers as you go?
Not sure what exactly you mean here. Could you explain a bit more? (Might be better to do in the spreadsheet thread or in a pm than here.)
#2304SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Female Tauren
1:1.5 rotation was BM?

According to Dominus's post in WoW Forums -> Improving my DPS [WWS included]at post #35, it looks like he has been using a 1:1.5 rotation as BM.
He seems to have success with it, has anyone tried this?

Will the dmg gained from more specials make up for the lost auto shot dmg?

Last edited by Female Tauren : 09/14/07 at 6:32 AM.
#2305SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
According to Dominus's post in WoW Forums -> Improving my DPS [WWS included]at post #35, it looks like he has been using a 1:1.5 rotation as BM.
He seems to have success with it, has anyone tried this?

Will the dmg gained from more specials make up for the lost auto shot dmg?
I am going to put down a guarantee: he would do more DPS as MM using a 1:1.5 rotation coupled with some haste gear to removed any empty space in his rotation. Using a rotation that heavy on mana consumption (which he does by getting a SP grouped with him) does far more damage in the hands of a MM. Plug his gear into Cheeky's spread sheet and switch him to MM from BM. Watch the change in total DPS.

The build would need to be 18/43/0. You can play with it and swap between iAotH and Endurance Training.
#2306SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
Kolusius
I guess its possible, but you'd need some really good latency and reaction time. I know I only finish my steady with about .3-.4 left on my autoshot timer. He does have a 3.0 bow though, and isn't wearing any haste gear:

0.00 Autoshot
0.00 Steady Shot
1.50 Steady Fires
1.50 Multi Shot
2.61 Autoshot
3.00 Steady Shot
4.50 Steady Fires
5.22 Autoshot
5.22 Steady Shot
6.72 Steady Fires
6.72 Arcane Shot
7.83 Auto Shot
8.22 Steady Shot
9.72 Steady Fires
10.44 Autoshot

I suppose in a perfect world, it could work out, at least for me it isn't viable, 2.9 speed bow for part of the problem, and a little bit of passive haste. (And 200-250ms latency, which I'm stuck with, I've now tried all ISPs in my area, short of laying my own fiber)

(e) Looking at specifically the autoshot following the multishot, the multishot actually fires at 2.0 or so, leaving a .61 second gap. With the autoshot cast time, is it .5 seconds after multi is cast, or after multi fires?

Last edited by Kolusius : 09/14/07 at 11:18 AM.
#2307SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3bulldazhor
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
According to Dominus's post in WoW Forums -> Improving my DPS [WWS included]at post #35, it looks like he has been using a 1:1.5 rotation as BM.
He seems to have success with it, has anyone tried this?

Will the dmg gained from more specials make up for the lost auto shot dmg?
If you have a 2.9+ weapons the 1:1.5 rotation will do more damage. give a try in cheeky Speadsheets and you will see the difference in DPS.

for exemple a comparaison between wolfslayer 1:1 and Arcanite steam pistol 1:1.5

Wolfslayer 1:1
Total Damage	53,095.31
Total Mana	2,750
Total Time	47.73
Normal Shot DPS	1112.31
Total DPS	1194.87
Normal Rotation MPS	57.61
Weighted Shot Rotation MPS	61.89
Kill Command MPS	12.59
Total MPS	74.47
Total Shots	50
Normal Shots per Second	1.05
Mana Regen per Second	13.2
Total Mana Pool	6298
Time to Mana Exhaustion	102.79
Arcanite 1:1
Total Damage	56,187.83
Total Mana	2,750
Total Time	51.27
Normal Shot DPS	1095.91
Total DPS	1167.46
Normal Rotation MPS	53.64
Weighted Shot Rotation MPS	57.14
Kill Command MPS	12.20
Total MPS	69.34
Total Shots	50
Normal Shots per Second	0.98
Mana Regen per Second	12.4
Total Mana Pool	6298
Time to Mana Exhaustion	110.60
Arcanite 1:1.5
Total Damage	55,999.01
Total Mana	4,330
Total Time	46.74
Normal Shot DPS	1198.09
Total DPS	1225.07
Normal Rotation MPS	92.64
Weighted Shot Rotation MPS	79.17
Kill Command MPS	12.46
Total MPS	91.63
Total Shots	50
Normal Shots per Second	1.07
Mana Regen per Second	12.8
Total Mana Pool	6298
Time to Mana Exhaustion	79.89
This doesn't include Quick Shot proc, and a 1:1 rotation will be necessary on a hasted situation. but in term of DPS the 1:1.5 rotation clearly bring the most DPS for a BM hunter as well if you have a relatively slow weapons a good latency and a very good mana regen
#2308SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by bulldazhor View Post
If you have a 2.9+ weapons the 1:1.5 rotation will do more damage. give a try in cheeky Speadsheets and you will see the difference in DPS.

for exemple a comparaison between wolfslayer 1:1 and Arcanite steam pistol 1:1.5

Wolfslayer 1:1
Total Damage	53,095.31
Total Mana	2,750
Total Time	47.73
Normal Shot DPS	1112.31
Total DPS	1194.87
Normal Rotation MPS	57.61
Weighted Shot Rotation MPS	61.89
Kill Command MPS	12.59
Total MPS	74.47
Total Shots	50
Normal Shots per Second	1.05
Mana Regen per Second	13.2
Total Mana Pool	6298
Time to Mana Exhaustion	102.79
Arcanite 1:1
Total Damage	56,187.83
Total Mana	2,750
Total Time	51.27
Normal Shot DPS	1095.91
Total DPS	1167.46
Normal Rotation MPS	53.64
Weighted Shot Rotation MPS	57.14
Kill Command MPS	12.20
Total MPS	69.34
Total Shots	50
Normal Shots per Second	0.98
Mana Regen per Second	12.4
Total Mana Pool	6298
Time to Mana Exhaustion	110.60
Arcanite 1:1.5
Total Damage	55,999.01
Total Mana	4,330
Total Time	46.74
Normal Shot DPS	1198.09
Total DPS	1225.07
Normal Rotation MPS	92.64
Weighted Shot Rotation MPS	79.17
Kill Command MPS	12.46
Total MPS	91.63
Total Shots	50
Normal Shots per Second	1.07
Mana Regen per Second	12.8
Total Mana Pool	6298
Time to Mana Exhaustion	79.89
This doesn't include Quick Shot proc, and a 1:1 rotation will be necessary on a hasted situation. but in term of DPS the 1:1.5 rotation clearly bring the most DPS for a BM hunter as well if you have a relatively slow weapons a good latency and a very good mana regen
Did you include latency? Most people have around 200ms. Some lucky people have under 100, and others have 500+. At 200ms lag, I honestly doubt a BM using a 1:1.5 rotation will do good DPS. Not to mention they will completely starve themselves for mana in no time flat. I still maintain at the 18/43/0 spec will do higher DPS at 1:1.5 than BM trying to do the same.
#2309SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3okla
Just to clearify, in reality that cycle wont hold up and you will delay autoshots, his point however is that regardless of this loss in dps, you still do better.
#2310SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Kaber
Originally Posted by okla View Post
Just to clearify, in reality that cycle wont hold up and you will delay autoshots, his point however is that regardless of this loss in dps, you still do better.
The example shows a 30 DPS gain at 0 latency, meanwhile mana consumption increases by about 30%. If you have any latency at all you will end up doing equal or possibly even lower DPS than a 1:1 rotation at a much higher mana cost.

If you want to use a 1:1.5 rotation, 18/43/0 is the only spec that will out DPS BM. The cost is a huge amount of mana, so if you do not get a shadow priest every raid, I would not bother.
#2311SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
bulldazhor
this rotation hold until 100ms latency with a 2.9 weapon
170Ms with a 3.0 weapon

I personnaly use a 1:1 rotation with a wolfslayer and believed that would be the best DPS for raid. Until my other BM hunter give a try to the 1:1.5 with his sunfury bow. We noticed a big jump of his DPS on WWS and seems to hold on the mana with his 40Mp5 unbuff
it would be interresting to be able to estimatge the cost of the clippling on the DPS as cheeky excel file switch to 1:1 when clipping happen.

as for the 18/43/0 it give a better DPS for a 1:1.5 rotation for sure, but i am not sure that le loss off frenzy and serpent swiffness for the pet would compensate the loss which is around 50Dps for the pet in comparaison to the 30Dps increase for the hunter(based on my gear which isn't necessary optimised for MM)

Last edited by bulldazhor : 09/19/07 at 8:52 AM.
#2312SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by bulldazhor View Post
t
I personnaly use a 1:1 rotation with a wolfslayer and believed that would be the best DPS for raid. Until my other BM hunter give a try to the 1:1.5 with his sunfury bow. We noticed a big jump of his DPS on WWS and seems to hold on the mana with his 40Mp5 unbuff
it would be interresting to be able to estimatge the cost of the clippling on the DPS as cheeky excel file switch to 1:1 when clipping happen.
Can you link the WWS logs for this? I'd be interested in seeing the actual results.
#2313SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Can you link the WWS logs for this? I'd be interested in seeing the actual results.
Cheeky's nice way of saying "are you sure everyone wasn't just screwing up their rotations and the 1.5 won because of the inclusion of arcane/multi?" also "I call BS on 40 mp5 making a noticeable dent in the [b]400 mp5[/] used by that rotation."
#2314SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Houze
Seems for me that a 1:1.5 rotation as BM wouldn't be a viable option, there are hard to push in arcane-shot without delaying auto-shots slightly and multi-shot with it's 0,5 cast time are more or less impossible. GCD are a limit, with the 2.1 (2.9 w/o haste) attack speed there isn't room for another GCD after the SS has taken 1.5 sec.
A 1:1.33 rotation are possible even with a 200ms latency+reaction time included I guess, so doing a Auto-SS-AS-Auto-SS-Auto-SS-Auto-SS-AS-Auto should work for slow weapons like 2.9-3.0 with standard haste.

A note on the subject of Hawk Eye on Lady Vashj. All hunters in my guild are BM except for me that switching between builds on weekly bases depending on what fight we struggling with. We almost always have 2 hunters in the raid so to take down the bats before they get to spit the poison all raiding hunters in the guild have hawk eye, we don't have any option to this, warlock and shadow priests dots are to slow, all mages are Arcane so our hunters have to do this job.
With 2 hunters on the bats we take the bats down fast and can spend more then half of our time doing dps on Vashj, ofcourse the missing 3 points in Mortal shot takes our damage down a bit, but in overall it isn't more then 1.5-2.0% less dps when including the pet.
#2315SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Hoverpuma
Originally Posted by bulldazhor View Post
this rotation hold until 100ms latency with a 2.9 weapon
170Ms with a 3.0 weapon

I personnaly use a 1:1 rotation with a wolfslayer and believed that would be the best DPS for raid. Until my other BM hunter give a try to the 1:1.5 with his sunfury bow.
Having recently acquired my Sunfury bow (no, we aren't exactly a hardcore guild), I went to check this out myself on Dr. Boom. I was intrigued by the notion of a non-1:1 rotation as BM, based on leading with auto-steady-arcane-auto and filling in the gaps as best as possible. I came up with the following "zero latency" rotation on paper:

0.0 - 0.5 auto
0.5 - 2.0 steady
2.0+epsilon arcane (GCD to 3.5)
2.1 - 2.6 auto
3.5 - 4.0 multi (GCD to 5.0)
4.2 - 4.7 auto
5.0 - 6.5 steady
6.5 - 7.0 auto (0.2s delayed)
(later, rinse, repeat when arcane's CD is up)

What I found was that if I watched Quartz like a hawk and pegged the timing like a hyperactive Dance Dance Revolution player, I was able to squeeze off an Arcane between Steady and Auto. However, I was unable to do it reliably. (I time my own shots.) A spammable macro might be able to keep up if you have well under 100 ms latency, but keep in mind that latency isn't simply the packet ping time between your client and the WoW server, but also includes your computer's processing delay (say your OS takes a page fault at exactly the wrong time and spends 50 ms paging at exactly the wrong time), human reaction time, the time between scroll wheel ticks for a spammed macro, etc.

Now consider that you still need to account for triggering Kill Command, trinkets, Rapid Fire, pet management, etc... (not to mention that this all goes out the window when IAotH procs!) and I come to the conclusion that it's not really workable for a mere mortal like me. Perhaps someone more studly than I would get some mileage out of something similar, but it seems painful.

(The one intriguing thing I noticed was that, if I blew the timing on the Arcane Shot, I got the "arcane fires with auto shot animation" effect a surprisingly large number of times.)
#2316SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3
Edited onPatch 2.1.3
bulldazhor
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Cheeky's nice way of saying "are you sure everyone wasn't just screwing up their rotations and the 1.5 won because of the inclusion of arcane/multi?" also "I call BS on 40 mp5 making a noticeable dent in the [b]400 mp5[/] used by that rotation."
that's probably true also ^^. unfortunatly i just came back from vacation and loose the stats when we were together (1 month retention) but you can check his DPS on his last Gruul+Mag
Wiggum - WWS

Foir the mana of course is MP5 aren't enough but with the right group, buff, pot he seems to hold his rotation enough.

From what i've seen, his rotation seems better when the combat isn't static (due to the burst in 10s).

I am not saying that it's the ultimate rotation and goal for hunter in raid, I just point that it can be an effective solution for raiding.

Last edited by bulldazhor : 09/20/07 at 1:10 PM. Reason: wrong link
#2317SourcePosted on Patch 2.1.3Trohck
Looking at Gruul, it doesn't seem like he's doing 1.5:1 at all. He has 101 autoshots and 109 specials. On Magtheridon it's a little closer, 107 autoshots and 136 specials, but still not 1.5:1.
#2318SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Cranch
Originally Posted by Kaber View Post
Wow, that is one hell of a nerf. It is now a far worse focus dump than just about anything you can get on a pet. 135 on a full stack is just sad, especially when you consider activating claw as a focus dump will more often than not push the poison stack off because of the GCD messing with the timing.

Can we get confirmation that with raid buffs the scorpid stack is still useless? With the rank 5, and only AotH, I was getting a 206 tick on the Servant. There was another message just after Kaber's that claimed 2500 rap got a 195 tick. So something's not kosher.

I have a vague recollection that I was getting ticks of around ~330 unraidbuffed in 2.1.2, so this may just be a ~30% damage nerf. 900/tick * .7 = 630/tick, still quite worthwhile to get, assuming this scales linearly.

Last edited by Cranch : 09/25/07 at 5:36 PM.
#2319SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Ladwenae
Do anyone know what kind of 1h weapons is needed with the new +20 agi enchant to be better than sonic spear with 2.2?
I have malcazeen and stellaris banked atm and my guess is that our melee will be getting the SSC/TE weapons for a while still so Kara PU raids is where I have the option to get better than stellaris weaponry.
I'm just so sick and tired of sonic spear so even if I need to use mana oil or sharpening stones to surpass sonic that will be a godsend ...
( cheeky's spreadsheet isn't updated with that enchant yet it seems )
#2320SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0 Glaurong
Quick FYI, sharpening stones are getting changed to not affect range.
#2321SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
Do anyone know what kind of 1h weapons is needed with the new +20 agi enchant to be better than sonic spear with 2.2?
I have malcazeen and stellaris banked atm and my guess is that our melee will be getting the SSC/TE weapons for a while still so Kara PU raids is where I have the option to get better than stellaris weaponry.
I'm just so sick and tired of sonic spear so even if I need to use mana oil or sharpening stones to surpass sonic that will be a godsend ...
( cheeky's spreadsheet isn't updated with that enchant yet it seems )
Emerald Ripper from Moroes and Guile of the Khoraazi(Consortium Exalted) are the best 2 you can get if you only have access to Karazhan.

If Al'ar isn't in the too distant future then Netherbane is gettable, rogues don't want it and my warriors seem to be after other things.
#2322SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Cranch
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Emerald Ripper from Moroes and Guile of the Khoraazi(Consortium Exalted) are the best 2 you can get if you only have access to Karazhan.

If Al'ar isn't in the too distant future then Netherbane is gettable, rogues don't want it and my warriors seem to be after other things.
Actually, Blade of the Unrequited is the best 1H Karazhan drop (per my spreadsheet, with reasonable values for agi etc.) due to its 3 gem slots.
#2323SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0 Inudemon
I'm not 100% positive about this, and I cannot test it atm as our server just crashed. But it appears that pets are now considered warriors as far as Pally buffs go. Our pets had Might + Kings + Salv tonight and when I asked, our Kings pally said he wasn't buffing pets. They don't get them when the hunter does, because when our Pals were buffing earlier I had Might + Kings + Wis while my pet had nothing.

Amazing change if it is in fact working as I suspect.
#2324SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0xEw
This could be kind of intended. More interesting was a statement from another thread(undocumented features in public discussion) that pets can now be buffed twice. First when considered as warriors(if this is the case. Or just say "when other players get buffed") and then they can be singlebuffed.

Then it would be interesting how a double might buffed scorpid will do.

Further information/data about the scorpidnerf would be nice.
(and a comparison to ravager in 2.2 would be great )
#2325SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Zedd
I can not say I mind them recieving the same buffs as Warriors.
Except BoM and BoK there arent any really usefull blessings for pets.
And most warriors get both of those. (They do in our guild )

Not Ideal, but I find it a nice change
#2326SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Enova
Originally Posted by Ladwenae View Post
Do anyone know what kind of 1h weapons is needed with the new +20 agi enchant to be better than sonic spear with 2.2?
I have malcazeen and stellaris banked atm and my guess is that our melee will be getting the SSC/TE weapons for a while still so Kara PU raids is where I have the option to get better than stellaris weaponry.
I'm just so sick and tired of sonic spear so even if I need to use mana oil or sharpening stones to surpass sonic that will be a godsend ...
( cheeky's spreadsheet isn't updated with that enchant yet it seems )
2xNetherbanes from Al'ar, 2xSpiteblades from Netherspite, the off-hand Claw of the Phoenix, still from Al'ar with one of the above, a Malchazeen, a Blade of the Unrequited, they basically all work

As for Cheeky's spreadsheet, you can add +25 agility to the main hand weapon and 15 agility to the off hand one, to get to the same total of 40 agility
#2327SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Actually, Blade of the Unrequited is the best 1H Karazhan drop (per my spreadsheet, with reasonable values for agi etc.) due to its 3 gem slots.
hmm, correct, i'd never seen this during my searches.
It is a 7% drop off a 1 in 3 chance boss per week though so its probably not worth holding out for.
#2328SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Trieste
They nerf scorpid poison :'(
#2329SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Kariudo
Anyone else noticing a lot of aggro being generated by the new T5 2-piece effect? Last night I got got a surprise visit from Hydross, who apparently wanted to give me hugs for all the lovely healing I was doing. I only pulled aggro the one time, but I spent the rest of the night glued to omen trying to get a feel for this new aggro t5-wearers will apparently have to copy with. Aggrowise I imagine it was somewhat worse than keeping mend pet on the whole time. It's great to have my pet live through pretty much every encounter now, and I'm not gonna say the extra aggro makes it not worthwhile to get T5, but it's borderline. :-/
#2330SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Cranch
Originally Posted by Trieste View Post
They nerf scorpid poison :'(
Got some raid-buffed numbers so I can decide whether or not to replace my scorpid before I raid Friday?

Last edited by Cranch : 09/26/07 at 2:09 PM.
#2331SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Kaladian
Originally Posted by Kariudo View Post
Anyone else noticing a lot of aggro being generated by the new T5 2-piece effect? Last night I got got a surprise visit from Hydross, who apparently wanted to give me hugs for all the lovely healing I was doing. I only pulled aggro the one time, but I spent the rest of the night glued to omen trying to get a feel for this new aggro t5-wearers will apparently have to copy with. Aggrowise I imagine it was somewhat worse than keeping mend pet on the whole time. It's great to have my pet live through pretty much every encounter now, and I'm not gonna say the extra aggro makes it not worthwhile to get T5, but it's borderline. :-/
Hmm i thought i read somewhere that the new proc was not causing aggro on the test server vs the old proc on the live servers. Of course that was when the PTR first came out for 2.2 which was like 2 yrs ago i think =)

I'm also not overly happy with our pets being put in with the warriors for pally buffs, why would they not be put in with the rogues instead. hey some pally buffs are better then none but if you only have 2 pallies in a raid your either going to lose might or light and i'm not a pally but i would thing the warriors get light over might if there is only 2 pallies.

Last edited by Kaladian : 09/26/07 at 12:22 PM.
#2332SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Kariudo
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
Hmm i thought i read somewhere that the new proc was not causing aggro on the test server vs the old proc on the live servers. Of course that was when the PTR first came out for 2.2 which was like 2 yrs ago i think =)

I'm also not overly happy with our pets being put in with the warriors for pally buffs, why would they not be put in with the rogues instead. hey some pally buffs are better then none but if you only have 2 pallies in a raid your either going to lose might or light and i'm not a pally but i would thing the warriors get light over might if there is only 2 pallies.
Yeah, I'm reading some other places that hunters are reporting aggro issues without T5 being involved, so I prolly jumped the gun in assuming the heals were the problem.
#2333SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Deepellem
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Got some raid-buffed numbers so I can decide whether or not to replace my scorpid before I raid Friday?
Replace it. I tried it out last night and the max tick I was able to get all night was 285 with rank 5. Previously, with rank 4, I was able to get that number around 700-800.
#2334SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0
Edited onPatch 2.2.0
Howitzer
Originally Posted by Deepellem View Post
Replace it. I tried it out last night and the max tick I was able to get all night was 285 with rank 5. Previously, with rank 4, I was able to get that number around 700-800.
Indeed, they nerfed it to the ground quite simply. The sad thing is that as time goes by the differences in pets and having them unique in any way keeps getting slimmer. On the bright side, I am rolling around with a new Raptor for the first time in..... 3 years I believe? For straight DPS, I don't think anything will beat out a Ravager as it stands. Since I'm not BM at the moment, I'm not feeling pressed to level one. Hopefully Blizzard will soon make the 70 Ravagers in the SMV caves tamable.

Last edited by Howitzer : 09/29/07 at 7:48 PM.
#2335SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Spiry
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Indeed, they nerfed it to the ground quite simply. The sad thing is that as time goes by the differences in pets and having them unique in any way keeps getting slimmer. On the bright side, I am rolling around with a new Raptor for the first time in..... 3 years I believe? For straight DPS, I don't think anything will beat out a Ravager as it stands. Since I'm not BM at the moment, I'm not feeling pressed to level one. Hopefully Blizzard will soon make the 70 Ravagers in the SMV caves tamable.
They are, got me one the other day :o
#2336SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0blitz1988
Yep, tameable since latest patch. Though, I think that the process of leveling loyalty has gotten longer since patch.
#2337SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0smoogle
hi i was just wondering how to maximise my dps through my cooldowns.
the current cooldowns i have at the moment are:
bloolust brooch : 2minute cooldown(20seconds duration)
rapid fire : 3minute cooldown(15seconds duration)
troll racial : 3minute cooldown(10seconds duration)
Beast within : 2 minute cooldown(18seconds duration)

at the moment to begin with i pop all 4 and use just a normal steady/auto macro
then once the BW+brooch are up i use them and continue weaving steady auto arcane
then when the racial/rapidfire is up i go back to the steady/auto macro until the duration is over then i use bw/brooch and continue then once 6 minutes is up i pop all for at once..
how does that sound?
#2338SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Lumi
If you are using a 1:1 rotation already, using rapid fire and your racial at the same time is not a gain in damage (already shooting too fast for the GCD with rapid fire alone). I would use the racials at seperate times back to back.

As a side note, either armory is bugged or you have 5 talent points you haven't used.
#2339SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0keztrel
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Hopefully Blizzard will soon make the 70 Ravagers in the SMV caves tamable.
they are already tamable since 2.2
#2340SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0movado
I'm trying to get better

I'm thinking my next piece of loot is going to be off of Lurker (the choker) or VR (the legs). Other than that I'm not sure what to get next. (Bloodlust Broach is almost done).

What should I be looking to for my weapons? What about my other gear as I move through SSC and start TK?

Thanks guys!

The Armory

and

Wow Web Stats
#2341SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Jerem
Originally Posted by movado View Post
I'm trying to get better

I'm thinking my next piece of loot is going to be off of Lurker (the choker) or VR (the legs). Other than that I'm not sure what to get next. (Bloodlust Broach is almost done).

What should I be looking to for my weapons? What about my other gear as I move through SSC and start TK?

Thanks guys!

The Armory

and

Wow Web Stats
I just had a quick look at your WWS log and Armory.
Gear is not everything, even though there clearly are some upgrades available to you.

I think you could improve your shot rotation (assuming you use arcane or multi between 2 autos everytime they are up, and steady the rest of the time, it seems you're still using more autos than specials).
Viper Sting : why ?
8x Aimed Shots : why ?
Bring Mana Pots, and fight in Aspect of the Hawk.

And, the most important advice I might be able to give : post such questions in the appropriate thread (Cheeky started a thread dedicated to helping hunters based on the kind of data you provided here).
#2342SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0movado
Thanks. I'll repost over there.
#2343SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Greenpiggy
Aimed shot and Serpent sting? - just remove those from your actionbar.

You also had a shadow priest, which means there is no way on gods earth that Aspect of the Viper should ever have been touched, you can easily maintain Hawk almost indefinitely with some mild potting.
You also fired(in my opinion) way way too many arcane shots, it does a little more damage than steady shot but it also drains away over double the mana, a simple rule is to ignore arcane shot if hitting it risks you going oom(after consumables ofc)

My advice would be - stick to Auto/Steady rotation for now and once you're doing competitive dps with that(1000 is a good number to aim for on Lurker) then you can think about pushing it a little further by replacing some steadies with arcane or multi.
#2344SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Kaladian
I have kind of a weird question about shot rotation. Is it possible to fit a acrane shot into your 1-1 rotation, like 1-1 + 1 arcane shot every 6 sec? i have ran a pure 1-1 rotation for a long time but another BM in my guild is killing me on the DM lately. He has got some upgrades but what i noticed from the WWS is he is gettin off alot of arcane shot. My overall DPS time is falling behind also but like on he still seems to be getting in more specials then I am. I'm using Sunfury vs his Lady V bow, and on nights were my latency is very low 50-75 i can hit a acrance in without messing my my rotation while using a macro for SS/AS and spamming the arcane shot button after SS has fired. On nights where my latency gets up around 175 there seems to be some visional clipping. So my question is with a 3.0 bow and good latency can you fit in another special into your 1-1 rotation ? And even if you clip your atuoshot alittle is it worth the extra damage?
#2345SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0 Glaurong
The problem isn't really clipping your auto shot when you fire the Arcane, rather severely delaying the next one when the global cool down pushes your next steady back.

The interactions between the global cool down, the auto shot timer and stead shot's cast time are the ultimate limit to our DPS. People often forget the global cool but it is just as important a consideration as everything else.
#2346SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
The problem isn't really clipping your auto shot when you fire the Arcane, rather severely delaying the next one when the global cool down pushes your next steady back.

The interactions between the global cool down, the auto shot timer and stead shot's cast time are the ultimate limit to our DPS. People often forget the global cool but it is just as important a consideration as everything else.
That being said (and it is all accurate) when you get to 2.9-3.0s weapons you will see a DPS increase by force-clipping every 3 cycles to put a Steady + Arcane pair between Auto Shots. You're latency/reaction times really come into play though, but it could be macro'd pretty easily.

You can test this sort of thing out by hand-building Shot Rotations in the DPS spreadsheet. Whether the slight additional damage is worth the mana expenditure is left as an exercise to the reader.
#2347SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Kaladian
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
That being said (and it is all accurate) when you get to 2.9-3.0s weapons you will see a DPS increase by force-clipping every 3 cycles to put a Steady + Arcane pair between Auto Shots. You're latency/reaction times really come into play though, but it could be macro'd pretty easily.

You can test this sort of thing out by hand-building Shot Rotations in the DPS spreadsheet. Whether the slight additional damage is worth the mana expenditure is left as an exercise to the reader.
Yes when my latency is in the 50 range i can fit the acrance in with alittle clipping but in the 175 range i see a bigger clip, too bad they dont make those 3.4 weapons anymore LOL. I havent tried MM since i hit 70 but i'm getting bored with BM. I have seen the other hunters wws for i think it was Solarian which has changed some this week but he had 66 autoshot, 66 steady shots, 16 arcance shots, and 12 Multi-shots in 5 min DPS time. He always has more then 1-1 shots during boss fights.
#2348SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
Yes when my latency is in the 50 range i can fit the acrance in with alittle clipping but in the 175 range i see a bigger clip, too bad they dont make those 3.4 weapons anymore LOL. I havent tried MM since i hit 70 but i'm getting bored with BM. I have seen the other hunters wws for i think it was Solarian which has changed some this week but he had 66 autoshot, 66 steady shots, 16 arcance shots, and 12 Multi-shots in 5 min DPS time. He always has more then 1-1 shots during boss fights.
Because of the cast time of Multi-Shot you'll see even more clipping. He's running almost a full 1:1.5. I'm pretty sure (without modeling everything about him) he's costing himself extra mana for little, if any, extra damage.
#2349SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Tanth
I'm pretty sure that this has been covered either here or in the "help me" thread, but I'll be damned if I can find the answer since both threads have gotten so big. Anyways, I understand the concepts behind 1:1 and 1:1.5 rotations, but regarding a Beast Mastery spec, how does Kill Command fit in with a 1:1 rotation? Since it doesn't use the GCD can it still delay or clip an autoshot? Do you gain more dps by just leaving it out?

If anyone could point me in the direction I need to be, that would be great. Thank you.
#2350SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Shaile
Originally Posted by Tanth View Post
I'm pretty sure that this has been covered either here or in the "help me" thread, but I'll be damned if I can find the answer since both threads have gotten so big. Anyways, I understand the concepts behind 1:1 and 1:1.5 rotations, but regarding a Beast Mastery spec, how does Kill Command fit in with a 1:1 rotation? Since it doesn't use the GCD can it still delay or clip an autoshot? Do you gain more dps by just leaving it out?

If anyone could point me in the direction I need to be, that would be great. Thank you.
You use it before the steady shot.
Edit: or before the special if you go full out.
#2351SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.0Lumi
It clips autoshot, but can be fit into a rotation. Place it after the autoshot, before the special.
#2352SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2 Glaurong
If you add a kill command line to a spam macro and mash it fast enough, you won't delay your auto shot by much.

If L is your latency, and R is the number of times you hit your macro a second (and Latency defined as round trip time):

Max Delay = L/2 + 1/R

If your latency is ~100ms and you hit your macro 10 times a second:

Max Delay = 0.1/2 + 1/10 = 0.05 + 0.1 = 0.15s (which only happens once every 5 seconds)

So if A is your auto shot DPS, your lost DPS in this case would be:

Lost DPS = A * (0.15 / 5) = A * 0.03

As your latency goes up and the speed at which you slam your macro goes down, this obviously gets worse. Depending on your average kill command and how much auto shot DPS you do, it might be worth using two macros, or just slamming one.
#2353SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Soulcow
The changed 2 set bonus on T5 seems to be buffed a lot:

Old Naj'entus kill:

Survival Instinct 9.192 (i died early so i got only 86% pressence)

New Naj'entus kill:

Health Link 38.988

Both are the same Pet without any trained frost resistance.

So from this the new 2 set bonus heals 3 to 4 times more.

Old Teron Gorefiend kill:

Survival Instinct 9.402 (Pet was a scorpid with maxed shadow resistance)

New Teron Gorefiend 10% wipe:

Health Link 49.049 (Pet was a cat without shadow resistance)

Again a huge difference, 5x more on the 10% wipe. Altough the scorpid had shadow res and does less hits then a Cat, survival instinct would never reach 50k healing. For the other try's and kills and for the other hunters it shows the same, Health Link heals a lot more then Survival Instinct.
#2354SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Krohl
Lightning Breath and its behaviour when macroed

Background. Those using Wind Serpents for raiding often turn off Lightning Breath autocast, and trigger it from their macro instead, to get rid of the bad AI behavior of pets running in and out of melee range and preventing your Steady Shots to cast etc. Wind Serpents would run out of melee range to cast, then back in, etc.


When 2.2 went live there seems to have been a change to how Lightning Breath behaves when triggered from your macros.


I'm pasting an old macro here, its not an exact copy of the one I'm using now (Can't reach it from the office), but it shows what I'm getting at

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pet, dead] null; [target=pet, noexists] null; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrors

The change in behavior is related to how the Wind Serpent behaves when he's not currently engaged in melee combat with the mob, ie. just standing by your side (or somewhere you've placed him with the Stay command).

Pre 2.2.
Spamming macro while pet engaged in melee = Spam LB every time its available, stay in melee.
Spamming macro while pet NOT engaged in melee = Pet would move close enough to reach mob with LB attack, cast from range, move back to hunter. Repeat every time it had focus for LB.

Post 2.2.
Spamming macro while pet engaged in melee = Spam LB every time its available, stay in melee. No change.
Spamming macro while pet NOT engaged in melee = Pet does nothing.


Most of the time this doesn't matter at all, but for some bosses this maybe odd original behavior was really nice. For example on Bloodboil, where I didn't want the pet to stay in melee and be targetted for the poison thing and get rogues/warriors killed. Or on whirlwinding mobs where the pet could come to my position, but still add DSP by casting a LB from range every time I critted and gave it focus.

It functioned as an extra free LB after each crit, on mobs where a normal pet would not be able to attack otherwise.

This may be alot of words to describe a simple thing, just not sure how many used the above mentioned thing and know how it works.

The thing I'm interested in, has anyone got any clue whether its possible to change the macro in any way to bring the old behavior back? Over a long fight where you cannot use your pet in melee (not many but still some), this is a nice addition to your DPS.

I'll do some testing when I get home, was just thinking about it now while working..

Maybe something could be done with "/cast [target=pettarget] Lightning Breath", if i drop the target bit maybe I will force a cast, because I say nothing about the pet's target, but then I'll lose the possibility of having the pet stationed on one mob, while I'm targeting a second, and it not running over to cast its LB on mine and then going back to melee the first? Anybody know?
#2355SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2 Lactose
What about something like...

/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath; [target=target] Lightning Breath

First checking for if pet has target (if so, cast Lightning Breath on it). If pet doesn't have target, Lightning Breath cast on your target.

I'm not entirely sure if the conditionals work like this, but that's my best guess right now.
#2356SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Jide
Originally Posted by Krohl View Post
Maybe something could be done with "/cast [target=pettarget] Lightning Breath", if i drop the target bit maybe I will force a cast, because I say nothing about the pet's target, but then I'll lose the possibility of having the pet stationed on one mob, while I'm targeting a second, and it not running over to cast its LB on mine and then going back to melee the first? Anybody know?
Try /cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath; Lightning Breath

*edit* Beaten by Lactose. Though, I believe specifying [target=target] is redundant
#2357SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Jerem
In [target=pettarget, exists], does the 'exists' test refer to the pet, or its target ?

If it referred to the pet, I guess it'd send the pet to attack/LB your target if it was not already, while if it referred to the pet's target, it'd do nothing if you'd have told your pet to sit at your side.
#2358SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
 Chicken
exists in that macro refers to the pet's target.

Most conditionals that have to do with the condition of something or another (dead, exists, harm, help) are either based on what you are currently targeting, or what you've set with target=unit.

Last edited by Chicken : 10/04/07 at 9:03 AM. Reason: Target's pet and pet's target are rather significantly different things.
#2359SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Krohl
Thanks, I'll give that a go tonight. My biggest fear right now is I think my current macro is already pushing the 255 character limit.

*fingers crossed*
#2360SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2
Edited onPatch 2.2.2
 Lactose
Originally Posted by Jide View Post
*edit* Beaten by Lactose. Though, I believe specifying [target=target] is redundant
The default target for Lightning Breath is your pet's current target. target=target sets it to your target instead.
I believe.

EDIT: I think the above is completely stupid. Yay for not thinking.

Last edited by Lactose : 10/04/07 at 12:55 PM.
#2361SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2allyourbass
Originally Posted by Krohl View Post
Thanks, I'll give that a go tonight. My biggest fear right now is I think my current macro is already pushing the 255 character limit.

*fingers crossed*
If you want to trim some fat from the macro, I'm pretty sure the only UIErrorsFrame part you need is /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
#2362SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Cranch
Originally Posted by allyourbass View Post
If you want to trim some fat from the macro, I'm pretty sure the only UIErrorsFrame part you need is /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
I found that deleting all of the UIErrorsFrame calls (a) saved space in my macro (b) gave me more of a chance to catch actual errors in play (e.g., oops I am not actually in range even though my buttons give the appearance of being in range) and (c) don't cause problems with hiding other error messages I actually want to see (if you call Hide(), that hides ALL error messages, including stuff from outside the macro.)
#2363SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Krohl
Pet behavior is back to normal, and I could trim a bit off the end. Thank you all.
#2364SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Mugsley
Wait, so that means we need to edit the macro so that the language includes both LB conditions? I'm grinding loyalty on a Ravager I tamed last night for raiding, but I need to know about the WS for specific cases and until I get the Ravager ready to go.

I'm assuming the extra language on the "/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command" line gets rid of the "that spell isn't ready yet!" comment I get when I'm macro spamming?
#2365SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2 Glaurong
This is a reflection to a bigger change to conditional macros that was screwing up a lot of people's click cast macros. The "fallthrough" target for a conditional is no longer your current target (which was happening before). You will need to update any of your macros that relied on this behavior.

For example:

/cast [target=mouseover] Wing Clip

Previously it would wing clip your moused over target, unless you weren't mousing over anything, then it would wing clip your target.

Now, unless you are mousing over something, it does nothing at all.

Also something to keep in mind is they added what is basically the AND operation to macros a while ago so you can simplify some of your macros. A space between two conditionals acts as an and, a semicolon acts as an or.

Like this macro someone said a few posts ago:
/cast [target=pet, dead] null; [target=pet, noexists] null; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
You can save yourself some characters if you are worried about running into the 255 limit:
/cast [target=pet, exists, nodead] [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
#2366SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2Xurr
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
You can save yourself some characters if you are worried about running into the 255 limit:
/cast [target=pet, exists, nodead] [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

You can save even more space because [target=pet, exists, nodead] is redundant and all you need is [target=pettarget, exists] because if your pet is dead or doesn't exist it won't have a target. So all you really need is:

/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
#2367SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.2 Glaurong
Yeah, I was trying to use an example where the AND was obvious. But the last line you mentioned is the simplest.
#2368SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Griever
Krohl, I really liked the idea of your macro.
Ive been away a while from the hunter scene and I feel abit outdated. (healing in the arena, lol)

Would you mind pasting your new and finally tweaked macro here, since I got a bit confused by all the options you were handed by Lactose and CO. I got the basic idea...

[Edit] (nevermind this one Ive read up.... and ofc dont want to clog the TC thread)
And last is it now confirmed that good old WS is still a viable (the best) pet with the KC changes and all?
Given that I use this macro with manual LB cast, so that he wont leave melee(KC) range.
Any information on where I can find more about this or even a straight up answer would be much appreciated. (Ive been searching but 95pages is abit overwhelming)...
[Edit]

/Profila
Hunter by heart, Priest by demand

Last edited by Griever : 10/18/07 at 10:36 PM.
#2369SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Krohl
So, I understand you correctly that you got your macro right after all?

Originally Posted by Griever View Post
And last is it now confirmed that good old WS is still a viable (the best) pet with the KC changes and all?
Think it's generally accepted by now that the Wind Serpents pull ahead when your critrate gets high enough, compared to the Ravagers and Cats who do better dps earlier on with their innate higher DPS %-modifier.
#2370SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Jemsky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
If you add a kill command line to a spam macro and mash it fast enough, you won't delay your auto shot by much.

If L is your latency, and R is the number of times you hit your macro a second (and Latency defined as round trip time):

Max Delay = L/2 + 1/R

If your latency is ~100ms and you hit your macro 10 times a second:

Max Delay = 0.1/2 + 1/10 = 0.05 + 0.1 = 0.15s (which only happens once every 5 seconds)

So if A is your auto shot DPS, your lost DPS in this case would be:

Lost DPS = A * (0.15 / 5) = A * 0.03

As your latency goes up and the speed at which you slam your macro goes down, this obviously gets worse. Depending on your average kill command and how much auto shot DPS you do, it might be worth using two macros, or just slamming one.
Apologies if this has been asked before, but searching the thread has not led me very far as yet.
So if you were on an latency from 120-180 ms, having the kill command included and basically slamming it would reduce my DPS , instead of increasing it and leaving me free to concentrate on other things in the raid?
The macro I use is

/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot

My questions are then
Is there a way I can use /stopcasting in this to make up for when i have over 180-210 ms latency? ( I know 2.3 may fix this but as yet its not applicable for those abilities with 1.5 sec and lower CD?)

Shall I include the kill command ability with a mouseover /keybind on a separate macro?

My base weapon speed is 2.06 , should the reset be 2 seconds?

I'd appreciate any answers and once again apologise if this has been asked before
#2371SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Daielgin
Bestial Discipline V's GFTT

Was just wondering what people's opinion was of Bestial Discipline when used in conjunction with GFTT. The reason I ask is that I've recently done a slight respec and taken one point out of BD and used it elsewhere (put it in Animal Handler to give more hit to my Raptor, only 1/2 though so far). The reason behind this was that in raids I'm usually sat somewhere between 25% and 30% crit rate (maybe a bit more) depending on if I've got one of our Feral Druids in with me (which seems to happen quite a bit) and obviously this is feeding a chunk of focus to the pet. I'm wondering though if the other point in BD would be better used elsewhere (Animal Handler maybe for the other 2% hit) and if I am just over doing the focus regen on the pet?

My concern is that even with Bite and Claw running on autocast the pet is still not using all the focus that I'm feeding. What do other people see here as my pet very rarely gets below about 35-40 focus on his bar from what I can see while dishing out the damage.

Our Comm is just getting into Magtheridon (done Loot Reaver in the Eye though ) so I am kitted in T4 and Kara equipment at the moment with the Arena Chest piece as well. So the kit isn't great, but in Gruul last night I achieved 973 DPS according to WWS and came out on top of the damage by about 100k for the whole raid. I don't think this is too shabby, but am keen to glean every single DPS out of myself. Recently upgraded my machine and connection so I get about 50fps and latency of about 70ms so thats all good

If anyone wants to pass comment on my kit, spec etc would be much appreciated.
#2372SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Griever
Originally Posted by Krohl View Post
So, I understand you correctly that you got your macro right after all?



Think it's generally accepted by now that the Wind Serpents pull ahead when your critrate gets high enough, compared to the Ravagers and Cats who do better dps earlier on with their innate higher DPS %-modifier.
Well Im not completely sure about the macro. I understand what it does and why, but Im a little bit unsecure how to compose the macro..

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath; [target=target] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pet, dead] null; [target=pet, noexists] null; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrors

Is this somewhat near the optimal composition, might be a bit long...?


oh, and if I may add... is it generally accepted that 1:1 rotations is the way to go, and then maybe weave in few arcanes and trinkets when i have time to look closely att my Quartz addon? (again apologies if this is offtopic)

and thanks for the confirmation on WS pet, Im going to try it out as my gear progresses

/Profila
#2373SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Daielgin View Post
Was just wondering what people's opinion was of Bestial Discipline when used in conjunction with GFTT. The reason I ask is that I've recently done a slight respec and taken one point out of BD and used it elsewhere (put it in Animal Handler to give more hit to my Raptor, only 1/2 though so far). The reason behind this was that in raids I'm usually sat somewhere between 25% and 30% crit rate (maybe a bit more) depending on if I've got one of our Feral Druids in with me (which seems to happen quite a bit) and obviously this is feeding a chunk of focus to the pet. I'm wondering though if the other point in BD would be better used elsewhere (Animal Handler maybe for the other 2% hit) and if I am just over doing the focus regen on the pet?

My concern is that even with Bite and Claw running on autocast the pet is still not using all the focus that I'm feeding. What do other people see here as my pet very rarely gets below about 35-40 focus on his bar from what I can see while dishing out the damage.

You might be ok in doing this. It depends not only on your crit rate but your shot frequency as well. If you use the DPS Spreadsheet it does a pretty good job of calculating average focus rates for both gain and loss. Try moving that point around and see how your pet's DPS changes.
#2374SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Jemsky View Post
Apologies if this has been asked before, but searching the thread has not led me very far as yet.
So if you were on an latency from 120-180 ms, having the kill command included and basically slamming it would reduce my DPS , instead of increasing it and leaving me free to concentrate on other things in the raid?
Not quite, what I was giving you is a way to figure out how much auto shot dps you will lose by inserting Kill Command. This will rarely result in a net loss as the dps from Kill Command will offset the loss (hopefully entirely and then some).

Originally Posted by Jemsky View Post
The macro I use is

/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot

My questions are then
Is there a way I can use /stopcasting in this to make up for when i have over 180-210 ms latency? ( I know 2.3 may fix this but as yet its not applicable for those abilities with 1.5 sec and lower CD?)

Shall I include the kill command ability with a mouseover /keybind on a separate macro?

My base weapon speed is 2.06 , should the reset be 2 seconds?

I'd appreciate any answers and once again apologise if this has been asked before
The reset portion of a cast sequence macro is often misunderstood. It is there to tell the macro when it should reset regardless of where it is in the sequence. Without a reset portion the macro will simply continue to the end, and start from the beginning, forever. A reset allows you to start the macro over if you pause for a set amount of time, drop combat, change targets or a few other things.

You can use /stopcasting will kill command to use it in one keypress with another shot. However you cannot use it in a macro you intend to spam. It will interrupt your auto shot cast.

I would say to take a look at Cheeky's sheet for an estimate of how much dps Kill Command will provide you and compare that to how much dps you might lose according to the calculations above to decide how you want to use it.
#2375SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Jemsky
I guess then, I'm going to have to use it in a instance and check my parses on what happens over a set period of time , maybe use bossfights when I am switching the macro around

About th reset time I think I'll reduce it to 2 seconds as it takes me about 2 seconds to switch targets etc etc to check

Thank you very much for your answer
#2376SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rieshu
[edited] whoops
#2377SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Stinkerbelle
Regarding the PTR/2.3 issue with Blizz's experiments with reducing the impact of latency on casts and cast sequences...

My eyes usually glaze over at what I had presumed to be overstated generalizations about Blizzard developers not understanding Hunters.

But I was genuinely surprised to read this response today from one of the more responsive and knowledgable moderator/developers on the Blizz forums (Slouken) regarding the undesirable toggling behavior of /cast Auto Shot on the latest PTR:

What is the intent of a Steady Shot / Auto Shot sequence?
Steady Shot automatically interrupts Auto Shot and then resumes Auto Shot when it ends... ?
WoW Forums -> New PTR causes Macro Problems?

/facepalm

I hope the responses make the point. But I have the feeling Blizz is not going to spend much more time on latency solutions for 2.3.
#2378SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Jemsky
So if this macro is broken on 2.3 , it means having to manually time the steady shots? Its going to be a nightmare when haste procs

Has anyone come up with a better sequence or way to turn this to our advantage
#2379SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ewnair
Hi guys, im new to this forum and the last 1/2 an hr of reading has been a real eye opener for me. I've learned a lot but there are still a number of queries that i would like answered.

I read on several posts that Dos santo's bow is one of the best bow for Bm hunters, even better than bows such as Sunfury etc.. Is this true? I can understand the mechanics of the show weaving, hence making faster weapons pump out more dps, but it still came as quite a shock when I read that Dos > all bows till T6. Can anyone confirm this? It'll be great if anyone can come out with a ranked list of bows/guns. I'm currently into ssc/tk and have a sunfury bow( should i get wolfslayer?). Was thinking that the next best upgrade for me would be the bow from Vasj but after reading the forum, I'm not so sure anymore. A little help here would be much appreciated

Im on oceanic server and normally play with 400-500ms.
#2380SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Enova
Originally Posted by ewnair View Post
It'll be great if anyone can come out with a ranked list of bows/guns. I'm currently into ssc/tk and have a sunfury bow( should i get wolfslayer?). Was thinking that the next best upgrade for me would be the bow from Vasj but after reading the forum, I'm not so sure anymore. A little help here would be much appreciated

Im on oceanic server and normally play with 400-500ms.
Well, such a list, even if it someone would actually compile it, would be too subjective. Basically, there's the case of Don Santos' Rifle or Wolfslayer Rifle which both benefit a certain BM spec, while the Serpentspine Longbow is more geared towards a MM or SV shot rotation.

Also, there's stuff like racials, talents, gear and lag that impact the performance of various ranged weapons. However, there is something i can help you with... there's a great spreadsheet for hunters around these forums, courtesy of Cheeky, where you can import your data, and try out different upgrades and see how they perform. You can find the thread about the spreadsheet here:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t9816-hu...s_development/

One more thing, though... i see you've made a similar post in the Help me Please thread. Posting a question in either one of the hunter threads should be more than enough in the future.
#2381SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ewnair
Wow that was a fast reply. Alright, noted about the double post, and thanks alot for the help.

So what do u think would be the next best bow upgrade for a bm hunter with sunfury?
#2382SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Jemsky
Serpent Shrine Longbow or the Merciless Gladiator Crossbow
#2383SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Stinkerbelle View Post
Regarding the PTR/2.3 issue with Blizz's experiments with reducing the impact of latency on casts and cast sequences...

My eyes usually glaze over at what I had presumed to be overstated generalizations about Blizzard developers not understanding Hunters.

But I was genuinely surprised to read this response today from one of the more responsive and knowledgable moderator/developers on the Blizz forums (Slouken) regarding the undesirable toggling behavior of /cast Auto Shot on the latest PTR:


WoW Forums -> New PTR causes Macro Problems?

/facepalm

I hope the responses make the point. But I have the feeling Blizz is not going to spend much more time on latency solutions for 2.3.
I'm sorry but i have played a hunter since release and i have ZERO faith that anyone at blizz has a slim idea how to fix hunter mechanics. Not only fix the mechanic but even understand the mechanic to know what is wrong with them. Being a raiding BM hunter if this macro no longer works it will be more tedious to weave shots then ever before. They need to remove the .5 sec hidden cast time for autoshot. What is better now that they killed the 10 sec shot rotation from Pre-bc to the what about 2.1 sec shot cycle of autoshot.SS we have now. I have played this class for a long time and i dont need to learn to play mu class, i have a lvl 70 mage/rogue/shaman/druid that i have raided(Kara/SSC) along with my hunter which we are on the council. None of those other classes come close to the complexity of playing a raiding hunter.

In closing if this macro no longer works it will be a huge blow to almost all the BM hunters because no longer will we be able to hit my macro while trying to do all the things that are needed during high level encounters. Tank/spank fight are over, standing still while DPS is all but over almost.
#2384SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3matthra
Someone seems to have figured out a work around, or at least thinks they have. I'll log on the PTR to check tonight, but I thought you guys might be intrested in the below:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast auto shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

the link is:

WoW Forums -> Steady Shot Macro: Possible Fix!

hmmm... I'm not sure if I cna figure out how this works, unless toggleing autoshot on delays the next item by .5 seconds, I don't see how this would stop clipping. Guess I'll know tongiht.
#2385SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Slash
Originally Posted by matthra View Post
Someone seems to have figured out a work around, or at least thinks they have. I'll log on the PTR to check tonight, but I thought you guys might be intrested in the below:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast auto shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

the link is:

WoW Forums -> Steady Shot Macro: Possible Fix!

hmmm... I'm not sure if I cna figure out how this works, unless toggleing autoshot on delays the next item by .5 seconds, I don't see how this would stop clipping. Guess I'll know tongiht.
I've been thinking about this. And if its true that the command 'Auto Shot' is toggling the auto shot on/off then the following castsequence line could work:

/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot , Auto Shot

This should toggle Auto shot off then on each time you spam it and cause it to fire after the steady shot. Need to get on the PTR later to test.
#2386SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Switchnomore
using /castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot , Auto Shot is not going to cancel auto shot, its going to not allow another steady shot until 2 auto shots are fired...
#2387SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rokh
Either way, this and other /castsequence lockups are hopefully fixed in the next build.

Slouken Response

Make sure and test this over the weekend and report back!
#2388SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Steviee
I have a few questions first is /castsequence reset=3 supposed to either loop the casting macro or just clear the queue of casts? If it is supposed to loop it I can't seem to get mine to work I have even tried changing the reset time.

My second question is has anyone of you bm hunters successfully done voidreaver and kept pet alive? Do you have any tips? Im still skeptical bm is better at least for that fight I am currently mm spec.
#2389SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Greenpiggy
Spec your pet with maximum Arcane Resist and throw him a mend every so often.
Also - you did spec him with avoidance right?
#2390SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ruind
Originally Posted by Steviee View Post
My second question is has anyone of you bm hunters successfully done voidreaver and kept pet alive? Do you have any tips? Im still skeptical bm is better at least for that fight I am currently mm spec.
This thread has several tips for pets and encounters listed with in the 96 pages. Asking questions that have already been answered is just going to make it longer... It took me less than a minute using the search function to find this on page 46:

Void Reaver

Be in a shadow priest group, watch your pet HOT durations and make sure its up because periodic damage will stay up there for the duration of the fight.

In addition there are several other things you could ask yourself looking at the talents/gear that is available to you. Do you have arcane resist talent on your pet (you don’t even really need this but it would help you in your circumstance). Are you applying a mend pet before he starts his pounding, and making sure that the mend tops your pet's health off? Do you have avoidance trained on your pet? Are you calling your pet out if its health gets too low? (a dead pet takes more time/mana to rez than letting mend pet tick with your pet by your side for a few seconds).
#2391SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Navras
Originally Posted by Ruind View Post
This thread has several tips for pets and encounters listed with in the 96 pages. Asking questions that have already been answered is just going to make it longer... It took me less than a minute using the search function to find this on page 46:




In addition there are several other things you could ask yourself looking at the talents/gear that is available to you. Do you have arcane resist talent on your pet (you don’t even really need this but it would help you in your circumstance). Are you applying a mend pet before he starts his pounding, and making sure that the mend tops your pet's health off? Do you have avoidance trained on your pet? Are you calling your pet out if its health gets too low? (a dead pet takes more time/mana to rez than letting mend pet tick with your pet by your side for a few seconds).

Also, having a shaman healer is nice, as the Chain Heal will hit your pet from time to time . Last night, I was able to maintain 1100 DPS, and my pet was alive for the entire fight. My Shadow Priest also died halfway through the fight. So, have mana pots available, and keep a Mend Pet up during Pounding, and as stated above, call your pet back if it's getting low on health.
#2392SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Talithin
I have recently been re-evaluating some of the 'supposed' hunter buffs to come our way in 2.3 and, targeting one note specifically, I was slightly perplexed as to why it might be considered a buff. The specific note I mention is the one about pets automatically going to the rear of a mob to attack it.

Positive sides of the change, I see to be the following:

Damage taken due to cleaves and front conal attacks significantly decreased (almost negated entirely).
Damage to the tank caused by pet parries also almost entirely negated.
Specific position of pet is always known relative to the angle the boss is facing.

I am, however, plagued by some of the negative situations that these changes introduce:

It is not ALWAYS necessary to have your pet placed at the rear of a monster, and in some cases can even become disadvantageous. Examples include: Romulo's backward lunge, where I would normally place my pet to the side; Gruul's cave-ins where presently a quick strafe, recall, resend, will put the pet in a more suitable position; and one which affects many more bosses, rather than specific cases, being bosses with large hitboxes which I shall try to detail more clearly.

There are dozens of bosses in the game where the hitbox of the boss is so large that it is often significant enough to warrant character replacement to get within range of the far end of the hitbox as opposed to the close side. This is normally not a problem as we are generally only concerned with the point on the hitbox which is closest to us in order to do ranged damage. However, problems do arise when you find that your pet is placed at the other side of the hit box and find yourself out of range of both mend pet and kill command. I often find myself having to recall my pet and then resend him on the Void Reaver fight, for instance, where you can often make an entire half circuit of the room whilst dodging arcane orbs. The same can happen on Gruul when a tank is knocked far away and your pet follows Gruul as Gruul follows the tank, as Gruul then follows the tank back to the centre of the room you often find your pet on the wrong side of him and have to recall the pet.

These examples are perhaps very situational, but I foresee these problems no longer becoming correctional through either manual pet commands or eyes of the beast because your pet is given a fixed position to attack from. I would hate, for instance, to have my pet be too far away to use kill command on the Lurker fight simply because he has to attack from the rear of Lurker. Making our pets attack from the rear of targets effectively reduces our range, not with respect to the boss's centre, but with respect to our pet's position at any point past the centre of the boss (the larger the hit box, the greater the effect this will have).

I may be very naive and have missed something in the PTR testing that makes the above post irrelevant. However, if there is no such discriminant then I would very much call this particular change as much a nerf as it is a supposed buff.
#2393SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Firefoot
Poor Aussie BM Hunters - Full Potential Never Achieved

Yes this is a QQ post.

With average latency of 400-600ms, we aussies will never experience the fun of sampling potential higher DPS with some of the easiest acquired weapons in the game.

For the last three weeks I've been trying to farm Kara for the Wolfslayer and organise raids on Doomwalker for the BBL. However after testing out the Veteran's Musket, which on a 100ms server would dish out more DPS than my Merciless Bow, I've decided to end my hunt. While still outputting decent DPS for a sub-Kara weapon in SSC, with my latency it was behind the Merciless on a 1:1 rotation.

Cheeky's spreadsheet now seems to readjust properly for latency as with a 400ms latency my DPS actually goes down by around 30DPS with a Wolfslayer plugged in.

Looks like my next ranged upgrades will be the Serpent Spine or Arcanite Pistol. Having downed Vashj last night it's not too far away...still...

GG Blizzard and your slackness in Oceania.

Any tips on reducing latency would also be appreciated
#2394SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Yippy
Originally Posted by Firefoot View Post
Yes this is a QQ post.

With average latency of 400-600ms, we aussies will never experience the fun of sampling potential higher DPS with some of the easiest acquired weapons in the game.

For the last three weeks I've been trying to farm Kara for the Wolfslayer and organise raids on Doomwalker for the BBL. However after testing out the Veteran's Musket, which on a 100ms server would dish out more DPS than my Merciless Bow, I've decided to end my hunt. While still outputting decent DPS for a sub-Kara weapon in SSC, with my latency it was behind the Merciless on a 1:1 rotation.

Cheeky's spreadsheet now seems to readjust properly for latency as with a 400ms latency my DPS actually goes down by around 30DPS with a Wolfslayer plugged in.

Looks like my next ranged upgrades will be the Serpent Spine or Arcanite Pistol. Having downed Vashj last night it's not too far away...still...

GG Blizzard and your slackness in Oceania.

Any tips on reducing latency would also be appreciated
The method I use is to watch your autoshot cast bar and hit steady shot when the bar reaches ~0.5 seconds, which should be enough time to use Wolfslayer + quickshots, but probably not if you get a DST. For me personally it starts becoming difficult when quickshots+DST procs at the same time, due to GCD and latency, using Serpent Spine. You'll only be able to KC after arcanes though, pretty much. Cheeky's spreadsheet (AFAIK) doesn't account for you being able to hit steady before autoshot ends, which would account for the dps loss.
#2395SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Wunlastri
So I've been stuck with the Wolfslayer forever. And just got the barrel blade. I want a bow, but don't have time to pvp with out of game things cropping up all the time. Despite my high agility, should I just bite the bullet and go BM until a bow returns. Also, why is BBL so well itemized for SV but then ruined via it's speed?

I assume Blizzard believes we all live in a world of 50 latency.

Please note, I am not regemming/enchanting if I go BM as I believe it to be a temporary fix until I get a bow from BT/Vashj. Though, BBL has free 16 agi spot in addition to giving 16 agi. It's just not fair how visually appealing that thing is to SV.
#2396SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Enova
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
So I've been stuck with the Wolfslayer forever. And just got the barrel blade. I want a bow, but don't have time to pvp with out of game things cropping up all the time. Despite my high agility, should I just bite the bullet and go BM until a bow returns. Also, why is BBL so well itemized for SV but then ruined via it's speed?

I assume Blizzard believes we all live in a world of 50 latency.

Please note, I am not regemming/enchanting if I go BM as I believe it to be a temporary fix until I get a bow from BT/Vashj. Though, BBL has free 16 agi spot in addition to giving 16 agi. It's just not fair how visually appealing that thing is to SV.
Well, i don't personally own a [Barrel-Blade Longrifle], but i must say, i've been tempted to get a 1:1 rotation with passive haste and a 0/20/41 SV build. This solution is pretty unconventional, to be sure, but the BBL comes in handy, because the speed means you have a lot less haste to stack.
Alternatively, you could simply gear up normally, and just dump multishot from your rotation all together.
#2397SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Wunlastri
Would switching to that rotation suddenly make DST worth going for?

I also apologize for asking apparently obvious questions, but optimizing is just that. Answering the obvious questions.
#2398SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Enova
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
Would switching to that rotation suddenly make DST worth going for?

I also apologize for asking apparently obvious questions, but optimizing is just that. Answering the obvious questions.
From a personal opinion, the [Dragonspine Trophy] is indeed worth chasing even after the haste nerf and added internal cooldown, and with either of the rotations. However, you need to adjust to a 1:1 rotation regardless of what you're using, when it does proc at that kind of weapon speed.

But I'd rather let the spreadsheets do the talking on this one, since the proc on the lovingly named Aggrospine can be quite difficult to estimate without them. Check the spreadsheets thread and download the latest version, see how it goes with or without a spine first.
#2399SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Talithin View Post
I have recently been re-evaluating some of the 'supposed' hunter buffs to come our way in 2.3 and, targeting one note specifically, I was slightly perplexed as to why it might be considered a buff. The specific note I mention is the one about pets automatically going to the rear of a mob to attack it.

Positive sides of the change, I see to be the following:

Damage taken due to cleaves and front conal attacks significantly decreased (almost negated entirely).
Damage to the tank caused by pet parries also almost entirely negated.
Specific position of pet is always known relative to the angle the boss is facing.

I am, however, plagued by some of the negative situations that these changes introduce:

It is not ALWAYS necessary to have your pet placed at the rear of a monster, and in some cases can even become disadvantageous. Examples include: Romulo's backward lunge, where I would normally place my pet to the side; Gruul's cave-ins where presently a quick strafe, recall, resend, will put the pet in a more suitable position; and one which affects many more bosses, rather than specific cases, being bosses with large hitboxes which I shall try to detail more clearly.

There are dozens of bosses in the game where the hitbox of the boss is so large that it is often significant enough to warrant character replacement to get within range of the far end of the hitbox as opposed to the close side. This is normally not a problem as we are generally only concerned with the point on the hitbox which is closest to us in order to do ranged damage. However, problems do arise when you find that your pet is placed at the other side of the hit box and find yourself out of range of both mend pet and kill command. I often find myself having to recall my pet and then resend him on the Void Reaver fight, for instance, where you can often make an entire half circuit of the room whilst dodging arcane orbs. The same can happen on Gruul when a tank is knocked far away and your pet follows Gruul as Gruul follows the tank, as Gruul then follows the tank back to the centre of the room you often find your pet on the wrong side of him and have to recall the pet.

These examples are perhaps very situational, but I foresee these problems no longer becoming correctional through either manual pet commands or eyes of the beast because your pet is given a fixed position to attack from. I would hate, for instance, to have my pet be too far away to use kill command on the Lurker fight simply because he has to attack from the rear of Lurker. Making our pets attack from the rear of targets effectively reduces our range, not with respect to the boss's centre, but with respect to our pet's position at any point past the centre of the boss (the larger the hit box, the greater the effect this will have).

I may be very naive and have missed something in the PTR testing that makes the above post irrelevant. However, if there is no such discriminant then I would very much call this particular change as much a nerf as it is a supposed buff.
It really depends on how it is implemented. I haven't gotten a chance to check out the test realm but I would imagine there isn't one spot pets are designated to attack from. That would be a lot of processing and trusting all of that to the client would be a bit risky. It would also cause a lot of the problems you mention. Illidan without being able to reset your pet to his side after a flame crash would suck hard.

Hopefully it is implemented that as long as your pet is attacking from the back 180 (or so) of a monster they are happy and wont re-position themselves. Anyone have specific experience with this on test?
#2400SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Wunlastri
Thanks Enova. I think I'm going to switch to BM until I catch a bow to see the changes. I'm horridly lazy when spreadsheeting, but logic follows that maximizing shot speed with the latent haste I have will give me less worry about clipping.
#2401SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fendryl
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
It really depends on how it is implemented. I haven't gotten a chance to check out the test realm but I would imagine there isn't one spot pets are designated to attack from. That would be a lot of processing and trusting all of that to the client would be a bit risky. It would also cause a lot of the problems you mention. Illidan without being able to reset your pet to his side after a flame crash would suck hard.

Hopefully it is implemented that as long as your pet is attacking from the back 180 (or so) of a monster they are happy and wont re-position themselves. Anyone have specific experience with this on test?
That was my experience on test. If your pet was in the front 180' it'd just go to the side, if it was in the back, it'd stay put. Also it's important to note that wind serpents, if they are autocasting lightning breath, do NOT change position.
#2402SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3listerfyne
hi, srry if this is in this massive 97pg post, but was wondering if their was a better macro for bm with merciless gladiator besides the auto,steady macro..this is alright but does not put out the dps the wolfslayer does with the same macro. I have both, but looking at stats, if found a good macro for bm and merciless gladiator, i would rather use that, and change from my mm spec.

ty for any help in advance
#2403SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Broulgan
First off, "Wow." I feel like I'm a first grade English/phonics teacher.
Second off, to actually address the content, I also use the Merc Xbow. I have the above mentioned "aggrospine", and have 5/5 Improved AotH. With both of these with the chance to proc, generally one is up. Also, even without these up, you'll want to keep that 1:1 SS/Auto macro going at all times, manually weaving KC in between SSs. The reason you'll want to do this is, unless there is a macro that I don't know about (which is ENTIRELY possible, as I'm a KISS (Keep it simple stupid) kind of player)), KC will roadblock your macros when there has been no crit to proc KC from. The reason you don't want another macro is that with the standard 15% quiver, and the 20% from Serpent's Swiftness, you'll be at 2.17 attack speed. By the time you'd started a steady shot after an arcane shot, you could be a half second from another steady shot being done. It may not sound like much, but it sure will add up. BM is just a 1:1 rotation, ALWAYS, unless you go out of your way to get a REDICULOUSLY slow ranged weapon.
#2404SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3listerfyne
ty, i was just wondering, according to cheeky's spreadsheet i got more dps out of the wolfslayer with the auto/ss macro, thats y im asking if their is a better macro. just hoping i could pump more dps after grinding the rep for merc's, oh well
#2405SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Stinkerbelle
On the Test Realm Forum, Hortus is asking for feedback regarding cast sequence macros on the latest PTR patch. They're getting confusing, misleading responses.

It's unusual to have Blizzard show direct interest (and even admit to their own ignorance) of a technical problem that especially affects hunters. I'm posting here in the hope that someone on the PTR (overseas latency prevents me) who is aware of the latest issues with the way the patch is handling latency and cast sequences can provide them with better information--before we're all stuck with it in 2.3


WoW Forums -> _FOCUS: /Castsequence macros

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Doesn't work like it did live. Causes your autoshot to to be interupted and restarts the autoshot timer... [erroneous/ambiguous content omitted by Stinkerbelle]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You say this is not working like it did in 2.2.3, how exactly is it different? I do not use /castsequence macros so please explain it as thoroughly as possible.
#2406SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kayaree
There is a macro..

There is a macro that does indeed do KC for you without roadblocking the rest of it.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast Rapid Fire
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2.1 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorFrame:Clear(); UIErrorFrame:Show()
This is the macro I use personally right now, though I do believe KC automatically targets your pet's target now, in which case you can just do /castexists. I just haven't changed my macro yet
#2407SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Helvetica
Originally Posted by Fendryl View Post
That was my experience on test. If your pet was in the front 180' it'd just go to the side, if it was in the back, it'd stay put.


Tonight we went in to get some trials attuned in TK, and my pet refused to run up the ramps to where A'lar was positioned during the fight. He basically ran around sporadically at the base of the ledge as if trying to find a path up. Im assuming that, because A'lar's back was hanging off the ledge, my pet was unable to reach the desired attack position.

This has never been a problem before 2.3 and im wondering if anyone else experienced this?

Last edited by Helvetica : 11/14/07 at 4:42 AM.
#2408SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0zork
Are there any tests on the new aimed shot? Is it worth using now?
#2409SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by zork View Post
Are there any test on the new aimed shot? Is it worth using now?
There's really no testing needed; yes, Aimed shot has had its casting time reduced and a MS effect added. However, it's still poor dps, poor dpm AND it still resets the autoshot timer.
Now, i know for some classes, resetting the swing timer is a good thing (slam warriors, for one).

However reseting autoshots means not firing one in the first place, which is actually forfeiting your only ability with no mana cost - and ergo infinite dpm -, and that gets any bonus from more expensive arrows. Coupled with the fact that Aimed shot is quite weak in the first place, takes 2 autoshots' worth of cast time, delays the third one, and with the time it takes a hunter to revert to any sort of effective rotation, simply firing one is bad for the hunter's damge. Even more so, keeping it up on every cooldown is going to cripple the hunter badly.

So, briefly, no. It's not worth it. Not in a raid, anyway. If there's ever a place where the -50% healing is actually needed, a MS warrior will always be the better choice.
#2410SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0UnLeashed
Originally Posted by listerfyne View Post
hi, srry if this is in this massive 97pg post, but was wondering if their was a better macro for bm with merciless gladiator besides the auto,steady macro..this is alright but does not put out the dps the wolfslayer does with the same macro. I have both, but looking at stats, if found a good macro for bm and merciless gladiator, i would rather use that, and change from my mm spec.

ty for any help in advance
Sorry if I misunderstood your post, (well actually I'm not as the way it's written doesn't make it easy for anyone to understand) but if you are achieving higher DPS using wolfslayer while spec'd BM, then the wolfslayer is better for you, stats should never be your priority when choosing your ranged weapon, (In most circumstances anyway) you should be looking at damage and speed and how this fits into your other gear selection.
#2411SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Namarus
Wind Serpents

Has anyone noticed the annoying mechanics of how a wind serpent acts?

I recently converted from using a Ravager to a Wind Serpent to maximize dps, however, it seems that the critical strike bonus does not seem to carry over onto lightening breath.

For Example last night I used a Wind Serpent (Shaman+Feral Druid in the party). The pet also had Brilliance and Kings on it, with the beast tamers shoulders for bonus crit.

Melee critical strike percentage was 19.2%.
Kill Command critical strike percentage was 31%.
Lightening Breath critical strike percentage was 7%.

Is anyone able to account for this huge difference in the Lightening breath crit rate, and any ideas on how to boost it?
#2412SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
Has anyone noticed the annoying mechanics of how a wind serpent acts?

I recently converted from using a Ravager to a Wind Serpent to maximize dps, however, it seems that the critical strike bonus does not seem to carry over onto lightening breath.

For Example last night I used a Wind Serpent (Shaman+Feral Druid in the party). The pet also had Brilliance and Kings on it, with the beast tamers shoulders for bonus crit.

Melee critical strike percentage was 19.2%.
Kill Command critical strike percentage was 31%.
Lightening Breath critical strike percentage was 7%.

Is anyone able to account for this huge difference in the Lightening breath crit rate, and any ideas on how to boost it?
1 run is not enough of a sample size, but some of what you saw was accurate. Leader of the Pack and Grace of Air both have no effect on spell crit. Lightning Breath has a base crit % of 0, plus 10% for the BM talent. I don't know if anyone has done research into whether or not pets get +spell crit from Intellect. They may not, since I can't imagine it's something Blizzard really thought about.

The +spell crit totem would help, but I think the rest of your group would vote against that idea.
#2413SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Iod
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
The +spell crit totem would help, but I think the rest of your group would vote against that idea.
Not to split hairs here, but that's the Fire totem (and available to Elemental Shaman). If the shaman is Enhancement or Resto a fire totem usually doesn't get put down at all. Granted, that's simply from my own limited experience with shammies, but I'd be curious if the +spelldamage modifiers from a Wrath of air Totem or the 5% spell damage increase from a Shadowpriest's Misery, or Improved Divine Spirit really do affect lightning breath. I don't recall where I read it, but I remember someone claiming that Windserpents don't derive a benefit from these sorts of boosts. Am I just plain senile on that?
#2414SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Elrinnas
Originally Posted by Helvetica View Post
Tonight we went in to get some trials attuned in TK, and my pet refused to run up the ramps to where A'lar was positioned during the fight. He basically ran around sporadically at the base of the ledge as if trying to find a path up. Im assuming that, because A'lar's back was hanging off the ledge, my pet was unable to reach the desired attack position.

This has never been a problem before 2.3 and im wondering if anyone else experienced this?
This is do to the wonderful "pets will now try to get behind the mobs" idea from Blizzard. I had problems on Alar where my kitty would not run up the ramp and also on Hydross where they ran off into the water. I am hoping Blizz fixes this or adds an option in the interface to disable.
#2415SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Namarus
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
1 run is not enough of a sample size, but some of what you saw was accurate. Leader of the Pack and Grace of Air both have no effect on spell crit. Lightning Breath has a base crit % of 0, plus 10% for the BM talent. I don't know if anyone has done research into whether or not pets get +spell crit from Intellect. They may not, since I can't imagine it's something Blizzard really thought about.

The +spell crit totem would help, but I think the rest of your group would vote against that idea.
It's not the first run I noticed this, but the first run I decided to not down the figures to try and quantify the results I was getting. I was using recount to the numbers. But even on a 4 hour raid I would expect to see something higher? Do you think using a caster pet with it's higher base intelligence would make a difference?
#2416SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
It's not the first run I noticed this, but the first run I decided to not down the figures to try and quantify the results I was getting. I was using recount to the numbers. But even on a 4 hour raid I would expect to see something higher? Do you think using a caster pet with it's higher base intelligence would make a difference?
Again, I have no idea if pet spell crit even scales with Intellegence. If you do some extensive, controlled testing please report your findings here, I know a lot of people may be curious.

(I used over 1,000 LB casts from our Survival Hunter with 0 crits as my basis for saying there is no inherent spell crit for Hunter pets. Miss rates seemed right in line with full resists of a spell against a target 3 levels higher.)
#2417SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Namarus
I did a test on Dr. Boom.

2k Lightening breaths,

88.4% normal hits
10.1% crit
1.5% resist

no raid buffs. Once I can find a boomkin who will sit there the whole time I'll try and see what results I get.
#2418SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
I did a test on Dr. Boom.

2k Lightening breaths,

88.4% normal hits
10.1% crit
1.5% resist

no raid buffs. Once I can find a boomkin who will sit there the whole time I'll try and see what results I get.
A typical 41/20/0 build? If so this validates that only the +crit talent seems to work, and that pets have 0% natively.

According to WoWWIKKI a target 2 levels below a caster yields a 98% hit rate, which is pretty much in-line with your 1.5% miss rate seen.
#2419SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ristoril
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Again, I have no idea if pet spell crit even scales with Intellegence. If you do some extensive, controlled testing please report your findings here, I know a lot of people may be curious.

(I used over 1,000 LB casts from our Survival Hunter with 0 crits as my basis for saying there is no inherent spell crit for Hunter pets. Miss rates seemed right in line with full resists of a spell against a target 3 levels higher.)
Normal wind serpents do not have seem to have enough int, even after raid buffing, to get any spell crit. I tried out a caster stat wind serpent awhile back out of curiosity and it was getting spell crit from intellgence. At 70, it was getting about an additional 5% spell crit going by the paper doll and the info I got from recount and recap supported that. Now i mostly tested this pet out while farming/daily quests and never in a raid environment as I felt the loss in other stats for a caster pet was not worth the 5% more spell crit.
#2420SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Namarus
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
A typical 41/20/0 build? If so this validates that only the +crit talent seems to work, and that pets have 0% natively.

According to WoWWIKKI a target 2 levels below a caster yields a 98% hit rate, which is pretty much in-line with your 1.5% miss rate seen.
Yeah pretty standard 41/20. I do, however, have the Beast Tamers shoulders which should give the pet an extra 2% critical strike.

I'm not sure maybe with more testing I can get a more accurate result.
#2421SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Stinkerbelle
Originally Posted by Elrinnas View Post
also on Hydross where they ran off into the water.
I've seen plenty of supid pet tricks in WoW, but this one takes the cake. Was hysterically stupid to watch both our hunters' cats dash away from the boss until they despawned at the beginning of phase 2.

How did this get overlooked during PTR testing? And has anyone found a workaround to this on the particular bosses where it's a problem?
#2422SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Seipher
Originally Posted by Stinkerbelle View Post
I've seen plenty of supid pet tricks in WoW, but this one takes the cake. Was hysterically stupid to watch both our hunters' cats dash away from the boss until they despawned at the beginning of phase 2.

How did this get overlooked during PTR testing? And has anyone found a workaround to this on the particular bosses where it's a problem?
Is that where my pet was going. I was wondering why I had to resummon him twice!
#2423SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Frem
We have a working theory. You won't like it, however.

It appears the current work around is to.. turn on growl. With growl enabled both my Windserpent and Cat went back to the tried and true bee-line towards the target. Once at the target, growl can usually be disabled with no further pet related hi-jinks, so long as the target in question does not move around a great deal.

Please be attentive on trash, however, as that short path from one critter to the next may look direct to you, but occasional will require a random lap of glory for your companion.

I and the other hunters in the guild are considering retraining all our pets with rank1 growl in the hopes we may be able to simply leave it active without causing other difficulties. However, at this juncture more testing is definitely required.

Were I able to interface directly with the developers on this issue, I would probably suggest that they simply revert the new AI behavior and attach it to the Cower ability. Speaking for myself, if the cower command caused the pet to reposition itself behind the target, I would finally have a reason to train that ability to a pet. I'd do it with a smile on my face, too.
#2424SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Thorongil
Originally Posted by Stinkerbelle View Post
I've seen plenty of supid pet tricks in WoW, but this one takes the cake. Was hysterically stupid to watch both our hunters' cats dash away from the boss until they despawned at the beginning of phase 2.

How did this get overlooked during PTR testing? And has anyone found a workaround to this on the particular bosses where it's a problem?
I´d say just nobody on PTR bothered going SSC/TK, why should you have done either? Anyways, the amount of Pet-related-crap in 2.3 is quite amazing, I haven´t had time to fully taste this in the raid, but I will be this evening, reading all the things about this nice new "feature" of Pets positioning themselves anywhere but not behind the boss gives me the chill I need to start in a good working-day. Not to mention the removal of getting ooc through FD adds the last tick I need^^

However, I really can´t see, why the remove drinking and gear-swapping for hunters, which was one of the real outstanding exceptionalities hunters kept having.
#2425SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Frem
Originally Posted by Thorongil View Post
However, I really can´t see, why the remove drinking and gear-swapping for hunters, which was one of the real outstanding exceptionalities hunters kept having.
Per the post from Nethaera on the Hunter forum:
-------
Q u o t e:
The reason was so Hunter's couldn't change gear and trinkets during a boss encounter. The FD+Drink is just an "unintended" side affect.
------
This is true. This was allowing more than just drinking to occur, such as the above, gear swapping. This wasn't intended.

From the other smattering of Blizzard posts on the subject and the general attentiveness from the development team on this issue; I would speculate that they weren't really expecting the furor this change would cause. This would leave one to believe they simply saw it as a continuation of their fixes to remove trinket swapping during combat. I don't believe they even considered that this change removed the only method a hunter had to replenish pet happiness during a long encounter.

However, as I said, that's all pure speculation and not entirely appropriate for this thread. Hopefully some feedback will be returned to the Hunter community in regard to these changes.

In the short term, however, the option to go with dual wielding two weapons in order to use dual mana oils seems to have gained a substantial incentive. The fact that oil now lasts 1 hour and persist through death just enhances the benefit over going with a single application via a 2hd weapon.

Perhaps more weight should be given to 'wasteful' itemization of mp5 and Int over Agi/crit/atk gear, as well. Hrm.
#2426SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Thorongil
Yeah, I´ve seen that Post from Netheara. The problem is: The gear-swapping isn´t that big of an issue for me. I mean it was nice to swap in Fire-Resi for Leotheras, or Tanking-Gear for the Bow at KaelThas, but it´s not something totally crucial. On the other hand the lack of being able to drink, removes on the one hand the best ability if something goes badly concerning mana (e.g. a couple of drains at Karathress) and makes AotH near to senseless, since I´ve been using FD+drink in many SSC/TK-Fights. Nearly every fight there provides a dmg-stop, either wenn the boss makes some emote, or wipes his aggro or provides some other idle-time which could be filled up with drinking, enabling the use of AotH nearly throughout the fight.

Now, a BM-Hunter will become even more viable in terms of raid-DPS compared to a MM, considering that BM still does a lot of DPS just with the use of Steady-Shot and KillCommand, which you can normally spam even if you´re oom, due to the regg vom AotV. Not that this does bother me that much, since I´m BM and it´s kind of okay in my opinion, since MM is the best arena specc (even superior now with 2.3 with the nice little twist with Pets an targets that stand in front of walls).

But generally AotH will be a no-go, unless grouped with a SP (lol, dare asking^^). Or has anybody some other conclusions?
#2427SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Jerem
The recent changes made to AotV define it, in my opinion, more as an aspect you switch to when reaching low-mana.
The rest of the time, you are simply better off using AotH.

The way I see it, we may have individual mana troubles, but raiding is all about the different interactions between classes.
Whether it is a Shadow Priest in your group, a Restau. Chaman, or your Paladins being organized enough to maintain a JoW on the boss, there are ways, in addition to mana pot-ing when necessary, to overcome these mana troubles.

For what I know, my guild's mages are simply not able to raid efficiently without a Shadow Priest.
We hunters are.
#2428SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Thorongil
Okay, a constant JoW is a huge boost, but even with it on, you have to switch to AotV sooner or later (in recent times more often sooner). Then there are fights, where you have too much Adds or simply the Pallys are occupied (I speak about raiding w/o a Retri) elsewhere and simply don´t have the time. And popping a pot on every CD is what I generally assume.

I´d say the most annoying thing about no longer being able to drink is simply, that it´s getting more pot-intensive. It was just comfortable on Farmstatus-bosses to just sit an drink, rather than pop pots which cost money. That´ll work no more, and as I said, you are no longer able to miss the right point of aspect-switching otherwise you´ll face serious mana-issues.
#2429SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0JuhnorX
The biggest issue with the loss of getting out of combat is the ability to feed pet.

In MH and BT however pro you are, your pet will die at some point, and to lose dps from the inability to fd feed pet is beyond belief.
#2430SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Keltan
Originally Posted by JuhnorX View Post
The biggest issue with the loss of getting out of combat is the ability to feed pet.

In MH and BT however pro you are, your pet will die at some point, and to lose dps from the inability to fd feed pet is beyond belief.
It's not even the loss of dps going from Happy to Neutral. It's that you can't use your pet at all. You get ONE pet rez. That's it.

If your pet dies, you can bring him back at Neutral. If he dies a 2nd time, your done. Rezzing him a 2nd time brings him back at Unhappy, and then you have to worry about him running off and losing your pet. (Not to mention that if he does die a 3rd time, you are pretty much guaranteeing that he will run off before you can feed him when you rez him back again.)

They either need to:
A.) Make 'Feed Pet' usable in combat.
B.) Make Imp. Revive Pet talent bring pets back at the same happiness level they died at.
C.) Just remove the happiness loss that pet's get when they die.
#2431SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Lactose
Originally Posted by Keltan View Post
(Not to mention that if he does die a 3rd time, you are pretty much guaranteeing that he will run off before you can feed him when you rez him back again.)
I've had my pet die 5 times on both Illidari Council and Archimonde without running off, without feeding.
#2432SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Helvetica
Originally Posted by Keltan View Post
If your pet dies, you can bring him back at Neutral. If he dies a 2nd time, your done. Rezzing him a 2nd time brings him back at Unhappy, and then you have to worry about him running off and losing your pet. (Not to mention that if he does die a 3rd time, you are pretty much guaranteeing that he will run off before you can feed him when you rez him back again.)
I have rezzed my pet multiple times in the same encounter and never experienced this problem. I do not believe that you are in danger of your pet running away until it has spent a significant amount of time "unhappy", such that he begins to lose loyalty. Once its loyalty level hits the minimum then you might see your pet run away.
#2433SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Helvetica View Post
I have rezzed my pet multiple times in the same encounter and never experienced this problem. I do not believe that you are in danger of your pet running away until it has spent a significant amount of time "unhappy", such that he begins to lose loyalty. Once its loyalty level hits the minimum then you might see your pet run away.
I'm betting it would take far longer than one boss encounter to reach loyalty level 5. Think about how long it takes to get loyalty levels. I'll see if I can do some research into deaths per loyalty level this weekend. Maybe keep rezzing him and sending him at a Fel Reaver.
#2434SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Elrinnas
Originally Posted by Stinkerbelle View Post
I've seen plenty of supid pet tricks in WoW, but this one takes the cake. Was hysterically stupid to watch both our hunters' cats dash away from the boss until they despawned at the beginning of phase 2.

How did this get overlooked during PTR testing? And has anyone found a workaround to this on the particular bosses where it's a problem?
I had to change my positioning in each fight to get my pet to attack, although I could never get my pet to attack Alar since there was no ground behind him, my pet just ran around in circles by the base of the ramp. I have no idea how it got missed in the PTR either - seems like a pretty big thing. A fellow hunter asked a GM about it and he stated, "there is not a bug currently." Yeah, right buddy - read the forums that are blowing up. As I attempt additional bosses, I will post what I have found.
#2435SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Elrinnas
Originally Posted by Thorongil View Post
Okay, a constant JoW is a huge boost, but even with it on, you have to switch to AotV sooner or later (in recent times more often sooner). Then there are fights, where you have too much Adds or simply the Pallys are occupied (I speak about raiding w/o a Retri) elsewhere and simply don´t have the time. And popping a pot on every CD is what I generally assume.

I´d say the most annoying thing about no longer being able to drink is simply, that it´s getting more pot-intensive. It was just comfortable on Farmstatus-bosses to just sit an drink, rather than pop pots which cost money. That´ll work no more, and as I said, you are no longer able to miss the right point of aspect-switching otherwise you´ll face serious mana-issues.
Don't forget the new arrows from the Violet Eye at 80 silver a pop.
#2436SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Krypt
Originally Posted by Keltan View Post

If your pet dies, you can bring him back at Neutral. If he dies a 2nd time, your done. Rezzing him a 2nd time brings him back at Unhappy, and then you have to worry about him running off and losing your pet. (Not to mention that if he does die a 3rd time, you are pretty much guaranteeing that he will run off before you can feed him when you rez him back again.)
Your pet will need to lose all 6 loyalty levels, which take 2+ hours each on unhappy to lose. You wont lose it fast, and no chance ever in the space of a single boss encounter. Its nice that you care for your pet and its deaths so radically however.
#2437SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Locos
Elitist Jerks always comes through in the clutch. After reading the hunter forums, my head wanted to explode, but EJ's rational thinking saved the day once again. Sure, not being able to FD + Drink is going to be annoying is certain cases (between phases of some encounters), but the real problem is definitely pet happiness. Not being able to feed your pet while in combat has really been quite silly from the beginning. If you were a game developer and you didn't want to make rezzing a pet free of any resource cost, you would probably assign some sort of a long cast time to the spell (say 10 seconds), make it cost a lot of mana, and make the pet return with partial life and no buffs. Oh wait...all of those already exist and make rezzing a pet annoying enough (even with talents). It seems excessive to add happiness loss on top of all that.

The other irony is how Blue called it a bug. Like somehow in the vast amount of patches they have released, not to mention the expansion, they suddenly stumbled upon this and decided that three years later seemed like a good time to fix the "bug". My theory, a couple of weeks ago someone at Blizzard finally got around to playing a hunter, and this sentence was yelled down halls of the Irvine headquarters "Holy crap! You can feign death and drink" (in my head this is done by their now lead hunter who is too busy aimed shotting and serpent stinging everything to adjust actually important aspects of the class like weapon speed....probably a guy named Legolas).
#2438SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Shibam
Originally Posted by Helvetica View Post
I have rezzed my pet multiple times in the same encounter and never experienced this problem. I do not believe that you are in danger of your pet running away until it has spent a significant amount of time "unhappy", such that he begins to lose loyalty. Once its loyalty level hits the minimum then you might see your pet run away.
And you couldnt be any more right. I was in an Aran fight once where every time i rezzed pet he targeted pet and just killed him. Im not familiar with the reasoning of this or what but it happened atleast 4 times in a row, eventually i just stopped rezzing him. He was pretty unhappy though but never dropped in loyalty much less ran away.
#2439SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ashi
Well, regarding feeding of pets in combat, this from the WoW Forums:

<Nethaera> [...] I just wanted to stop back in the thread here to relay that the ability to feed a pet during combat is in the works for a future patch. [...]

WoW Forums -> WTB FD Drink
#2440SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aird
And you couldnt be any more right. I was in an Aran fight once where every time i rezzed pet he targeted pet and just killed him. Im not familiar with the reasoning of this or what but it happened atleast 4 times in a row, eventually i just stopped rezzing him. He was pretty unhappy though but never dropped in loyalty much less ran away.
Aran targets anyone low on health and bombards them with 3 or 4 arcane blasts. This includes pets. I've seen him do the exact same thing to my cat.


As long as I'm posting, I'll ask a question. I'm a BM hunter and I use the standard steady /auto macro. I've seen some people say it doesn't work right anymore and others say it does work. So far it appears to be working for me, but I do seem to be going through more mana than I recall being the case before the patch. Does the macro need to be tweaked?
#2441SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Soulcow
Originally Posted by Helvetica View Post
I have rezzed my pet multiple times in the same encounter and never experienced this problem. I do not believe that you are in danger of your pet running away until it has spent a significant amount of time "unhappy", such that he begins to lose loyalty. Once its loyalty level hits the minimum then you might see your pet run away.
At loyality 6 I never encountered any loyality loss. Even after a whole night of wiping on Archimonde without feeding it once. (used my pet only for fear breaking)
#2442SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by Soulcow View Post
At loyality 6 I never encountered any loyality loss. Even after a whole night of wiping on Archimonde without feeding it once. (used my pet only for fear breaking)
I must agree, the loyalty loss is something quite rarely caused by a few pet deaths. It probably occured to me only once, in a night of wiping at HKM back in the spring, and i'm pretty sure that wiping for 4 ours without feeding the pet wasn't what caused it to roll back one loyalty level. However, the more pressing issue of the FD change is not having your pet leave you; rather, the downgrade from 125% damage to 75% damage your pet does(a 40% loss of the total pet damage) is going to hurt you more over the course of a fight than not being able to drink.
#2443SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Corinthian
Originally Posted by Ruind View Post
This thread has several tips for pets and encounters listed with in the 96 pages. Asking questions that have already been answered is just going to make it longer... It took me less than a minute using the search function to find this on page 46:




In addition there are several other things you could ask yourself looking at the talents/gear that is available to you. Do you have arcane resist talent on your pet (you don’t even really need this but it would help you in your circumstance). Are you applying a mend pet before he starts his pounding, and making sure that the mend tops your pet's health off? Do you have avoidance trained on your pet? Are you calling your pet out if its health gets too low? (a dead pet takes more time/mana to rez than letting mend pet tick with your pet by your side for a few seconds).
One of the best things I ever did on Void Reaver was have a mage cast Dampen Magic on my pet. It doesn't affect Mend Pet, but does affect Pounding.
#2444SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dethroned
I know a lot of BM hunters use the Steady Shot spamacro. Here's an alternative macro which works for me, try it out and let me know what you think.

With the macro I'm using you don't have to mash that button. It will fire Steady Shot normally. If Kill Command is up, one press will execute Kill Command and fire Steady Shot right after.

Macro:

/castrandom [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
#2445SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0xi0nic
Originally Posted by Dethroned View Post
I know a lot of BM hunters use the Steady Shot spamacro. Here's an alternative macro which works for me, try it out and let me know what you think.

With the macro I'm using you don't have to mash that button. It will fire Steady Shot normally. If Kill Command is up, one press will execute Kill Command and fire Steady Shot right after.

Macro:

/castrandom [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
One would just weave this macro in between auto-shots then? Hmm, sounds nice. I've been having lots of issues with my macro being broken after 2.3. I'll have to try this out.

Now that I'm here, I'll ask the question. Is everyone here still using their original KC/SS->AS macro? My macro had the "reset=target/3" statement, and I kept getting the message "invalid option". I'm curious to know what everyone else has done.
#2446SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0EvilDeathCrab
Originally Posted by xi0nic View Post
One would just weave this macro in between auto-shots then? Hmm, sounds nice. I've been having lots of issues with my macro being broken after 2.3. I'll have to try this out.

Now that I'm here, I'll ask the question. Is everyone here still using their original KC/SS->AS macro? My macro had the "reset=target/3" statement, and I kept getting the message "invalid option". I'm curious to know what everyone else has done.
I am still using my macro, but it doesn't have the target/3 value for reset. Rather, mine's just set to a static 3. If you could post your macro here (I'd post mine, but I'm busy being unproductive at work) we may have a better idea of what could be causing the issue.

Following in your tradition, I'd like to ask a question too. For some time I've been toying with haste items, and it seems that when I plug values into Cheeky's spreadsheet (OO version, but that may be for the spreadsheet thread) my DPS just keeps going up, even when I pass the 2.0 attack speed mark. Right now I'm sitting at 2.04 attack speed (without IAotH and Rapid Fire). I haven't found any concrete evidence on these boards (maybe I'm just not searching for the right things?) about the effective haste cap for hunters. Is there such a thing as too much haste for a BM hunter? What's the desired attack speed, and why? I seem (yes, anecdotal evidence, but Quartz reflects it as well) to still successfully maintain a tight 1:1 rotation with sub-2.0 attack speeds (albeit it's much harder and I recently have noticed occasional clipping of autoshots when rapid fire + IAotH are up). If anyone could direct me to some resources or help shed some light on the situation it would be much appreciated. The haste mechanics thread is sorely lacking in hunter input, I've found.
#2447SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0intressepil
Originally Posted by EvilDeathCrab View Post
Following in your tradition, I'd like to ask a question too. For some time I've been toying with haste items, and it seems that when I plug values into Cheeky's spreadsheet (OO version, but that may be for the spreadsheet thread) my DPS just keeps going up, even when I pass the 2.0 attack speed mark. Right now I'm sitting at 2.04 attack speed (without IAotH and Rapid Fire). I haven't found any concrete evidence on these boards (maybe I'm just not searching for the right things?) about the effective haste cap for hunters. Is there such a thing as too much haste for a BM hunter? What's the desired attack speed, and why? I seem (yes, anecdotal evidence, but Quartz reflects it as well) to still successfully maintain a tight 1:1 rotation with sub-2.0 attack speeds (albeit it's much harder and I recently have noticed occasional clipping of autoshots when rapid fire + IAotH are up). If anyone could direct me to some resources or help shed some light on the situation it would be much appreciated. The haste mechanics thread is sorely lacking in hunter input, I've found.
Very good question. From the haste mechanics thread I got this:

"Attack speed after all hastes should not go below 1 + .5 + latency seconds. The 1 is to give me a second in which to fit a special attack. The .5 is the auto-shot clipping buffer, and the latency is to account for travel time to the server. Your mileage may vary, but this has worked for me."

This is by no means any evidence for anything, but it sounds sound. For me personally, that'd cap the attack speed at 1.75 or thereabouts. This also sounds realistic from my experience; with no special buffs or anything I don't clip (with a 1.96 as). At Teron Gorefiend where you basically don't have an unhasted second between Quick Shots, Rapid Fire, Heroism and [Drums of Battle], clipping seems unavoidable, and maybe you'd be better off using a slower weapon.
#2448SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Locos
The cap is really just 1.5 seconds + your latency, with the 1.5 seconds being the global cooldown. I usually run at 1.85 static speed and 1.6 when IotH procs, and I don't typically experience clipping issues. The thing with Rapid Fire and all the other haste effects are that they tighten up a rotation. For example, if you were to blow your cooldowns like Beastial Wrath + Trinkets + Any Racials (Blood Fury), having a haste modifier like Rapid Fire will tighten up your rotation during this time when you have the most damage potential. So, yes as your speed approaches the "optimal" range you will get less out of Rapid Fire, but it is still beneficial in most cases. Also, Heroism/Bloodlust is a unique speed modifier in that it speeds up the global cooldown, so you can run the same rotation...just faster.
#2449SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 frmorrison
Any other BM hunters have pet issues with parries with the new pet behavior?

There were 2 BM hunters, but they have to respec because the pets were attacking the middle of the bosses's model making the boss parry and bursting the tank. Each pet had about 10% parry on Mother and on Council, they didn't try on Illidan.


For RoS (where Locks usually use Felhunters) my puppy (for the two minute period of that phase) had a 6% parry rate
#2450SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Trohck
I believe this is an undocumented change, please correct me if I'm wrong. As of 2.3, Kill Command no longer requires or triggers the GCD. On TBC release, it both required and triggered, then it was buffed to require not trigger. Now, at long last, it can be used even when you are on GCD.
#2451SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sympa
Originally Posted by Dethroned View Post
I know a lot of BM hunters use the Steady Shot spamacro. Here's an alternative macro which works for me, try it out and let me know what you think.

With the macro I'm using you don't have to mash that button. It will fire Steady Shot normally. If Kill Command is up, one press will execute Kill Command and fire Steady Shot right after.

Macro:

/castrandom [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
This has been mentioned previously in the thread however a simple fix is placing /cast Auto shot earlier in your macro, works flawlessly for me.


An example being:
#Showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast Auto shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Lightning Breath
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
#2452SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0rockyourjon
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Any other BM hunters have pet issues with parries with the new pet behavior?

There were 2 BM hunters, but they have to respec because the pets were attacking the middle of the bosses's model making the boss parry and bursting the tank. Each pet had about 10% parry on Mother and on Council, they didn't try on Illidan.


For RoS (where Locks usually use Felhunters) my puppy (for the two minute period of that phase) had a 6% parry rate
YES! You're the first person I've seen that has posted anything about this, and I'm glad that I'm not crazy. We had noticed our MT getting hurt a lot more than usual on Mother, so we looked through our stats/logs of the fight to find that indeed both of our BM hunter's pets were getting a lot of parries - 50 parries per pet! That's a lot of extra hits from Mother incurred to heal. We both respec'd after that night to try and improve our base hunter DPS, and stopped using our pets for the rest of the week.

A guild member of mine who I'm convinced spends all of his time when we're not raiding theorycrafting suggested/has heard that it is because of the new pet AI of it trying to get "behind" the target. He said somehow, the pets are physically being registered as attacking the centre of the unit's hitbox instead of the edge of it, causing it to be considered as an attack from the front as default (hence it getting parried). I'm not sure if this is true at all.

I've searched through the bug forums and a lot of the EJ forums to find more information about this, and I can't find anything. I plan to assemble some WoW web stats data and post them on the official WoW bug forums. This is a huge issue, all specs of hunters rely on their pets for a big chunk of their damage and we're basically hurting the raid right now for no reason. I seriously hope it gets hotfixed soon, I want to spec back to BM and be valuable again to my raid.
#2453SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Locos
The AI was added to make pets move to the back of mobs in 2.3, which is a nice thought, but occasionally has problems. I noticed some parries on Sharahz right after the patch was released as well. I think the issue is that if the mob moves or rotates slightly my pet will sometimes adjust to the new back, but will then stay there if the mob turns returns to its normal position. It seems really similar to issues tanks have with postitioning mobs; the pathing AI is a little wacky. However, once I saw parries I just kept re-calling/attacking with pet to repostition it behind Sharahz manually. This seems to work pretty well, but it can be a pain. It seems like the change will be nice for some encounters and a hassle in others.
#2454SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Locos View Post
Also, Heroism/Bloodlust is a unique speed modifier in that it speeds up the global cooldown, so you can run the same rotation...just faster.
After further testing it was proven that heroism/bloodlust do not have any effect on the global cooldown.

The discussion concerning it, if you're interested, begins with this post in the working theories of theorycrafting thread.
#2455SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Kaladian
The only fight i got in on last night was high Warlord Naj and my pets parry was only in the 1% range but the dodge rate was 8%.

Last night i was actually in the melee group with a shaman/drums of battle unlike my normal group of 2 mages and 2 locks so they can get my 3% damage increase =(. My DPS increased by roughly 300 being in the melee group between heroism/drum of battle/BS&totem for my pet. Funny how i always wondered why my dps was always so far behind the hunter who is normally in that group.

Last edited by Kaladian : 11/21/07 at 4:34 PM.
#2456SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0xi0nic
Originally Posted by Sympa View Post
This has been mentioned previously in the thread however a simple fix is placing /cast Auto shot earlier in your macro, works flawlessly for me.


An example being:
#Showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast Auto shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Lightning Breath
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
Thank you a bunch, Sympa. I removed the Lightning Breath line as I use a Ravager, but otherwise I just copied and pasted this macro. I'm even getting KC's automagically again! <3
#2457SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0bulldazhor
From the 2.3.2 PTR Patch notes.

/cast will toggle spells again unless the name is prefixed with an exclamation mark, e.g. /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
to test tomorrow on the PTR.
#2458SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0edlavallee
#Showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast Auto shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Lightning Breath
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
I use a slightly different one... but does anyone else have the problem of the SS/AS macro not working if the pet is dead? I seem to have this issue where if my pet has dies, I don't get the SS/AS working right. Also, I am having an issue of when the target has died, if I am too spam-happy, I auto target the next nearest mob and start firing. This sucks when the next nearest happens to be the sheep and I cause total chaos.

The one I use is this for general fights:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [pet,exists,nodead] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

And this one for special fights and grinding:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [pet,exists,nodead] Kill Command
/castrandom [pet,exists,nodead] Bestial Wrath
/use Bladefist's Breadth
/castrandom Rapid Fire
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


Any tips or help is greatly appreciated.
#2459SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0KergeKacsa
Santos or Skyfire?

Hi!

I would like to ask your opinions.
What do you think what is the better ranged weapon for a "classic" 41/20 BM hunter?

Don Santos' Famous Hunting Rifle
139 - 259 Damage Speed, 2.70
(73.7 dps)
7.5% of your ranged attacks increase your AP by 250 for 10 sec.

Skyfire Hawk-Bow
108 - 202 Damage Speed, 2.40
(64.6 dps)
+ 14 hit rating (0.88%)
+ 26 AP

I'm troll, so the bow means +0.5% hit chance.
I wonder if the Rifle's dps and proc are balancing the bow's speed, hit rating (with racial) and AP?
#2460SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 vank
The Troll racial no longer grants a bonus to hit. It's now 1% crit.
#2461SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Shaile
Originally Posted by KergeKacsa View Post
Hi!

I would like to ask your opinions.
What do you think what is the better ranged weapon for a "classic" 41/20 BM hunter?

Don Santos' Famous Hunting Rifle
139 - 259 Damage Speed, 2.70
(73.7 dps)
7.5% of your ranged attacks increase your AP by 250 for 10 sec.

Skyfire Hawk-Bow
108 - 202 Damage Speed, 2.40
(64.6 dps)
+ 14 hit rating (0.88%)
+ 26 AP

I'm troll, so the bow means +0.5% hit chance.
I wonder if the Rifle's dps and proc are balancing the bow's speed, hit rating (with racial) and AP?
skyfire hawk bow is to fast, 2.6 is perfect speed for bm hunter without haste gear. 2.7 gives abit more room for lag if you got 100+ ping.
The proc on don santos got a uptime of bout 42% so its worth almost 120 ap.
Suffice to say don santos is among the best bm weapons in game until t6 and haste gear where you can get 3.0 down enough for a solid 1:1 rotation.
#2462SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0KergeKacsa
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
skyfire hawk bow is to fast, 2.6 is perfect speed for bm hunter without haste gear. 2.7 gives abit more room for lag if you got 100+ ping.
The proc on don santos got a uptime of bout 42% so its worth almost 120 ap.
Suffice to say don santos is among the best bm weapons in game until t6 and haste gear where you can get 3.0 down enough for a solid 1:1 rotation.
Ok, thx.

But as every answer born a new question, i got a new one too.

Which 2 trinkets would you choose from the following? (Just pre-kara trinkets.)

Badge of Tenacity
308 Armor
Use: Increases agility by 150 for 20 sec. (2 Min Cooldown)

Bladefist's Breadth
+26 crit rating (1.17% @ L70).
Use: Increases AP by 200 for 15 sec. (1 Min Cooldown)

Core of Ar'kelos
+52 AP
Use: Increases AP by 200 for 20 sec. (2 Min Cooldown)

Hourglass of the Unraveller
+32 crit (1.45% @ L70)
Equip: Chance on critical hit to increase your AP by 300 for 10 secs.

Abacus of Violent Odds
+64 AP
Use: Increases haste rating by 260 for 10 sec.

Which 2 if this makes the biggest dps-boost? (Or which surely NOT? )
#2463SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Johnnie
Get Cheeky's spreadsheept from the neighbour topic, load your gear and look how will change your DPS with different trinkets.
I think Bloodlast Brooch (41 badges needed) is "must to have". Badge of tenacity is nice but costs over 800 gold on my server (druids just love it, as well as rogues = high demand). So I would either use bladefist's breadth or hourglass if it drops. However, people say its proc has been nerfed
#2464SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Shaile
Originally Posted by KergeKacsa View Post
Ok, thx.

But as every answer born a new question, i got a new one too.

Which 2 trinkets would you choose from the following? (Just pre-kara trinkets.)

Badge of Tenacity
308 Armor
Use: Increases agility by 150 for 20 sec. (2 Min Cooldown)

Bladefist's Breadth
+26 crit rating (1.17% @ L70).
Use: Increases AP by 200 for 15 sec. (1 Min Cooldown)

Core of Ar'kelos
+52 AP
Use: Increases AP by 200 for 20 sec. (2 Min Cooldown)

Hourglass of the Unraveller
+32 crit (1.45% @ L70)
Equip: Chance on critical hit to increase your AP by 300 for 10 secs.

Abacus of Violent Odds
+64 AP
Use: Increases haste rating by 260 for 10 sec.

Which 2 if this makes the biggest dps-boost? (Or which surely NOT? )
You should stop by cheekys spreadsheet thread to ninja his latest spreadsheet, then plug those trinkets in after you put in your own gear. Its a excellent spreadsheet to see the relative value of items in a purely theoretical scenario. Myself i use [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Bloodlust Brooch] with the last one being replaced with the new ZA trinket asap.
Remember, random haste is NOT your friend as BM, you want as clean rotation as possible with as little random boosts that put your rotation off as possible. If there was enough haste available to me that i could use a 3.0 weapon and get it down to 1.5 (with 1.0 steadies) i would drop imp hawk talent right away. As it is now any random haste puts me closer to the preferable speed but outside those haste buffs i got a unoptimized rotation (to much waiting time til next auto) which in the long run lowers the dps.

Last edited by Shaile : 11/26/07 at 12:51 PM.
#2465SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
Are you seriously telling me Santos beats Wolfslayer and the gun DW drops for BM?
#2466SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Juuel
Originally Posted by BigBlue View Post
I have a quest for all the BM guys. Do you use steady shot? How does that work with imp aspect of the hawk? Do you just not use steady while imp AotH is up? Or, do you ignore the steady (possibly) slowing down your auto?
My rotation is just auto-steady-auto-steady -spam, just spamming this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


With my 2.9 speed bow and this macro, I have no problems during AotH-procs. With Rapid Fire and AotH-proc together it should be still manageable, possibly delaying the auto shot a bit with faster weapons (2.5-2.8).

Hmm, it seems I've quoted a very old post from the page one. Thought I was at the last page, apologies. Useless post.

Last edited by Juuel : 11/27/07 at 6:08 AM. Reason: Old post
#2467SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheddar
Originally Posted by rockyourjon View Post
YES
A guild member of mine who I'm convinced spends all of his time when we're not raiding theorycrafting suggested/has heard that it is because of the new pet AI of it trying to get "behind" the target. He said somehow, the pets are physically being registered as attacking the centre of the unit's hitbox instead of the edge of it, causing it to be considered as an attack from the front as default (hence it getting parried). I'm not sure if this is true at all.
This is the same conclusion I came to after last nights raid when my pet would continuously position himself to the side of terron rather than the direct back, incuring a few parries. Sometimes, on RoS if I recall, he would position himself to the back, only to end up on the side. I tried pulling him back then sending him back in but I don't recall well enough to ellaborate on the argument at this point.
#2468SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Retgar
So I found this in the 2.3.2 PTR patch notes, is this a supposed fix for the issues that some are having with the standard steady/auto macro?


/cast will toggle spells again unless the name is prefixed with an exclamation mark, e.g. /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
Here's the source: 2.3.2 PTR Patch notes.
#2469SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Chul
Anyone noticing a higher than usual miss rate of their pet, even with 2/2 Animal Handler post 2.3?

I did ZA last night and the WWS parse is basically showing around a 6% miss rate on bosses, when I would think it should be around 2% (6% - 4% talent).

Since there is some movement of the bosses, I double checked a WWS of a Curator fight (where he doesn't move and my pet was on him 100% of the time) which also showed 5+% miss rate. Even on Prince Malch, where is can stay up 100% of the time, he had 5% miss auto attack miss rate (and 3% from claw).

I thought it may be positioning to the side, but there was no parries on Prince and only 1 on Curator across all attacks, so it must have been when it was initially positioning itself.

Anyone else seeing similar results ?
#2470SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Tsook
Pets have the same base miss as other non-dual-wielders (MS warriors, hunters, etc): i.e. 9% vs level 73 bosses. 9 - 4 = 5% seems about right to me.
#2471SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Chul
Originally Posted by Tsook View Post
Pets have the same base miss as other non-dual-wielders (MS warriors, hunters, etc): i.e. 9% vs level 73 bosses. 9 - 4 = 5% seems about right to me.
Ok, I thought it was 5.6%. I just read the 'Working Theories' sticky and you're right about the 9%.
#2472SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mugsley
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
Are you seriously telling me Santos beats Wolfslayer and the gun DW drops for BM?

Actually Wolfslayer is #1 for an unhasted BM Hunter. Santos is a close second, basically because the proc more or less counts as an Hourglass of the Unraveller all on its own. Also, both guns share the same speed.

DW's gun is too fast for a BM hunter to properly run a rotation (~1.8s after Serpent's Swiftness and quiver) without clipping significantly.
#2473SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kurtag
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
Are you seriously telling me Santos beats Wolfslayer and the gun DW drops for BM?
Yes, and both WS and Don Santos are better than any drops in SSC and TK, and the 2 other ranged weps in kara.

I believe they're on par with the Hyjal/BT weps also
#2474SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Escort
Originally Posted by Retgar View Post
So I found this in the 2.3.2 PTR patch notes, is this a supposed fix for the issues that some are having with the standard steady/auto macro?

Here's the source: 2.3.2 PTR Patch notes.
Just so I make sure I understand, a longer macro chain:

/cast Steady Shot, !auto shot, !steady shot, !arcane shot, !multishot

then it resets after multishot? Just as an example.
#2475SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Mugsley View Post
DW's gun is too fast for a BM hunter to properly run a rotation (~1.8s after Serpent's Swiftness and quiver) without clipping significantly.
Not really, I use it and get zero clipping when i'm at around 100ms latency or less, even when under quickshots.
#2476SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Midnight
Originally Posted by Escort View Post
Just so I make sure I understand, a longer macro chain:

/cast Steady Shot, !auto shot, !steady shot, !arcane shot, !multishot

then it resets after multishot? Just as an example.
I think it´s supposed to be /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Muti Shot (even though your example looks a bit awkaward - 3 specials back to back without an auto shot?). You only need the exclamation mark in front of every toggleable spell (e.g. Auto Shot) if you don´t want it to toggle on/off.
#2477SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0AForgottenTome
Question about Dragonspine Trophy and BM Hunters

Hello. We have been killing Gruul a lot lately and I have been thinking of rolling on this next time we see it (It should be mine afaik, lets assume so for the sake of argument.)

Is this a good trinket for a BM Hunter? If so...why? I apologize if this has been asked alot but I could not find an answer in any other thread. Also; my steadyshot macro seems to be buggy, anyone else report the same problem? Any fixes?

Thanks.
#2478SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Belaq
Equipping the Dragonspine Trophy with your Don Santos' would be a mistake; when the DST procc'd you would be clipping your auto shots, causing a significant loss in DPS.

In my opinion, the DST is excellent for making slower weapons (such as the Serpent Spine Longbow off of Vashj) viable for BM hunters.
#2479SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
What is the ideal speed for steady auto spam BM hunters? Like after adding in the 23% attack speed increase and the 15% haste (is atk spd ic and haste the same or worth different amounts) from a quiver? Like what is the ideal number I am looking for after calulations in say a 150-200ms latency situation? I have seen how to calculated, but never actually see the magic number that is best suited for the rotation. Also, how much does KC throw it off if it's in the macro?

Also according to armory (pre QS) my speed is 1.88. With just steady auto and KC how optimal is that?
#2480SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by AForgottenTome View Post
Hello. We have been killing Gruul a lot lately and I have been thinking of rolling on this next time we see it (It should be mine afaik, lets assume so for the sake of argument.)

Is this a good trinket for a BM Hunter? If so...why? I apologize if this has been asked alot but I could not find an answer in any other thread. Also; my steadyshot macro seems to be buggy, anyone else report the same problem? Any fixes?

Thanks.
I cover a lot of the math/analysis for the [Dragonspine Trophy] for Hunters in this thread.
#2481SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Slunter
Originally Posted by edlavallee View Post
... Also, I am having an issue of when the target has died, if I am too spam-happy, I auto target the next nearest mob and start firing. This sucks when the next nearest happens to be the sheep and I cause total chaos.
I have the same problem using the 1:1 macro and even more so since I've tied it to the mouse wheel for a quicker spam. Really have to be careful not to keep firering the macro in a multi-mob CC environment.
Anyone found a workaround for this inconvenience?
#2482SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Bullshot
Originally Posted by Slunter View Post
I have the same problem using the 1:1 macro and even more so since I've tied it to the mouse wheel for a quicker spam. Really have to be careful not to keep firering the macro in a multi-mob CC environment.
Anyone found a workaround for this inconvenience?
Do you have the Auto Attack/Auto Shot option in Interface Options enabled? If so, disable it.
#2483SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0superburrfoot
Having recently picked up a Leggings of Beastmatery for cheap, is there any use for this for dps purposes to use over other similarly lower level epics like Midnight Legguards / Gladiator Legs, etc? I use these when farming currently.

I think something is messed up with the spreadsheet since for some reason the socket bonus of Midnight Legs achieved is adding way too much dps (which seems wrong for a mere 4hit) switching from 3 delicate rubies to 2 delicate and 1 jagged talasite for the bonus is making my dps jump 17dps?
#2484SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by superburrfoot View Post
I think something is messed up with the spreadsheet since for some reason the socket bonus of Midnight Legs achieved is adding way too much dps (which seems wrong for a mere 4hit) switching from 3 delicate rubies to 2 delicate and 1 jagged talasite for the bonus is making my dps jump 17dps?
Check if it is enabling your Meta-gem.
#2485SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by superburrfoot View Post
Having recently picked up a Leggings of Beastmatery for cheap, is there any use for this for dps purposes to use over other similarly lower level epics like Midnight Legguards / Gladiator Legs, etc? I use these when farming currently.

I think something is messed up with the spreadsheet since for some reason the socket bonus of Midnight Legs achieved is adding way too much dps (which seems wrong for a mere 4hit) switching from 3 delicate rubies to 2 delicate and 1 jagged talasite for the bonus is making my dps jump 17dps?
I did this the other day and as Cheeky suggested it's probably your meta. I was baffled for over 30 minutes as to how a 5 crit / 2 MP5 gem could give me 17 DPS. ;-p
#2486SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheddar
I'm still stumped in regards to wheter or not to use a 3.0 like Arch's bow or 2.9 Legion for BM.

Coupled with 3.45% haste from belt/bracers, would it be more of a dps increase to simply speed up the 2.9 or to bring the 3.0 down to the speed of the 2.9? The option of speeding up the 2.9 seems a little odd to me considering as it is, with DST, rapid, and quick shots up (an uncommon occurence none the less; maximum haste scenario) I'm around 1.47ish (from memory, at work), already at the point where I'm clipping shots, correct?

[2.9/1.0345 = 2.80] vs [3.0/1.0345 = 2.899], still a one second difference. I'm guessing it comes down to what speed is most ideal when considering dst, quick shots, and rapid fire and their uptimes?

Or is basing a decision not to speed up the 2.9 based on one scenario rediculous? Please help
#2487SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Cheddar View Post
I'm still stumped in regards to wheter or not to use a 3.0 like Arch's bow or 2.9 Legion for BM.

Coupled with 3.45% haste from belt/bracers, would it be more of a dps increase to simply speed up the 2.9 or to bring the 3.0 down to the speed of the 2.9? The option of speeding up the 2.9 seems a little odd to me considering as it is, with DST, rapid, and quick shots up (an uncommon occurence none the less; maximum haste scenario) I'm around 1.47ish (from memory, at work), already at the point where I'm clipping shots, correct?

[2.9/1.0345 = 2.80] vs [3.0/1.0345 = 2.899], still a one second difference. I'm guessing it comes down to what speed is most ideal when considering dst, quick shots, and rapid fire and their uptimes?

Or is basing a decision not to speed up the 2.9 based on one scenario rediculous? Please help
What you should do, is head to Dr. Boom, turn on your combat log and fire off a ton of shots. Use rapid fire, any hastes you have, and keep up a steady/auto rotation the whole time, clip shots if you must but keep up the steady/auto. Then go back and look through/parse your log to see about what your minimum time between auto shot is. This depends on your macro/FPS/latency/etc and is different for everyone. For me, it happens to be about 1.7 seconds so any haste effects that take me under that really aren't that helpful.
#2488SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
So, I just got DST and wonder if it shares cooldown with Tsunami Talisman. And if it does, I'm assuming dropping DST is better outside of BM and dropping TT for the badge brooch (until I get berserker's call atleast) in the other trinket slot. Is this wrong, should I just stick with both and eventually become a non manually triggered CD hunter when I get a slow bow?
#2489SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
So, I just got DST and wonder if it shares cooldown with Tsunami Talisman. And if it does, I'm assuming dropping DST is better outside of BM and dropping TT for the badge brooch (until I get berserker's call atleast) in the other trinket slot. Is this wrong, should I just stick with both and eventually become a non manually triggered CD hunter when I get a slow bow?
They have independant cool downs.
#2490SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
So, is DST worse than Berserker's Call or am I set for awhile regardless of the spec?
#2491SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
So, is DST worse than Berserker's Call or am I set for awhile regardless of the spec?
That's going to depend entirely upon your current gear/spec/rotation.

For personal questions, please use the "Help Me Please" thread.
#2492SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wargrunt
I play on an oceanic server and my ping is usually more than 500 sadly. After getting the Vashj bow i noticed that most of the times i wouldnt get an autoshot after every steady i fired with my macro. An old WWS on morogrim showed that my steady shot was 48% of my dps while autoshot was only at 34%. I changed my macro and used every single macro available. Autoshots have increased but still lack some even without quickshots and rapidfire being up. I really dont know wat to do. I do not have a dragon spine trophy. I tried manual and it was definately better but again i am lacking some autoshots.

Im considering just going with the legion killer a 2.90 weapon speed bow because with my previous bow the sunfury, my macro worked perfectly and i had an autoshot after every steady shot. We are 4/5 Hyjal and upto teron in bt and i really need to make up my mind abt using the archimonde bow or the legion killer. I just want to fix my macro or my steady:auto ratio. Pls help.
#2493SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheddar
Originally Posted by Wargrunt View Post
Im considering just going with the legion killer a 2.90 weapon speed bow because with my previous bow the sunfury, my macro worked perfectly and i had an autoshot after every steady shot. We are 4/5 Hyjal and upto teron in bt and i really need to make up my mind abt using the archimonde bow or the legion killer. I just want to fix my macro or my steady:auto ratio. Pls help.
This is essentially what i was asking without the latency issue (which in your case is resolved by reverting to around a 2.9 or slower). I am led to believe, after further reading and Cheeky's post on tka regarding mm and BM scaling, that using a 3.0 couple with Bindings of lightning reflexes and Fists of Muroka OR Valestalker girdle (essentially the same haste, but I dont have access to the spread sheet to see which is the better slot to sacrifice) would be better dps.
#2494SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Natural20
Originally Posted by edlavallee View Post
I use a slightly different one... but does anyone else have the problem of the SS/AS macro not working if the pet is dead? I seem to have this issue where if my pet has dies, I don't get the SS/AS working right. Also, I am having an issue of when the target has died, if I am too spam-happy, I auto target the next nearest mob and start firing. This sucks when the next nearest happens to be the sheep and I cause total chaos.

The one I use is this for general fights:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [pet,exists,nodead] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

And this one for special fights and grinding:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [pet,exists,nodead] Kill Command
/castrandom [pet,exists,nodead] Bestial Wrath
/use Bladefist's Breadth
/castrandom Rapid Fire
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


Any tips or help is greatly appreciated.
Right, first point, go into interface options and turn on the "stop auto attack" button, this should stop your spellcasting when you switch targets, meaning you've got an entire steady cast bar to realise before you shoot the next mob by accident.

Secondly I would add /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() just below your showtooltip steady shot, so

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [pet,exists,nodead] Kill Command
/castrandom [pet,exists,nodead] Bestial Wrath
/use Bladefist's Breadth
/castrandom Rapid Fire
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

That should fix the problems you're having if your pet is dead. (Or at least I think so)

Finally, I would question your second macro since it seems fairly intuitive to me that you'd want bladefist's breadth activating whenever BW activated so you get 10% more on the AP provided, as such I'd remove that part from your macro, bind it elsewhere and use it manually.
#2495SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0jessequach
cat vs windserpent

I been wondering for the longest as cats vs wind serpent. cat has a claw ability that cost 25 energy that can be spamable. like the windserpents lb. with cat having 3% more damage on the wind serpent. could cats actually do a little more dps with that put into our macro.
#2496SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sienna
No. Wind Serpent gives out more dps because of the faster focus dump. Claw doesn't have cooldown but it has GCD, so it can't claw faster than every 1.5 seconds. But your pet will get more 100 focus per 6 seconds with GFTT so you are looking at a pet with almost 100% focus at all times. Whereas windserpent dumps 50 focus each gcd instead of 25. So with windserpent it's quite rare that it's staying there with 100% focus longer than a blink of an eye.
#2497SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sienna
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
So, is DST worse than Berserker's Call or am I set for awhile regardless of the spec?
I doubt DST can ever be worse than berserker's call. BC is 150 AP passive, where as DST is 40 AP + proc. So it's 110 AP more without proc. Now see how much more dps the proc gives you vs how much dps 110 AP gives you. 110 AP is approximately 2% more damage. (That part will depend on gear yes but it'll be around that). DST proccing 3 times a minute will give 30 seconds of 20% more damage, that's 10% more damage overall. It's not even comparable. DST proccing 2 times a minute will give 20 seconds of 20% more damage, that's 6.6666% more damage, again not even comparable. DST proccing once a minute gives 10 seconds of 20% more damage, that's 3.3333% more damage, still more than BC.
#2498SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
Wow...so..I'm good for awhile... Gonna go, pew stuff now. Maybe get a ZA and save the log.
#2499SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I doubt DST can ever be worse than berserker's call. BC is 150 AP passive, where as DST is 40 AP + proc. So it's 110 AP more without proc. Now see how much more dps the proc gives you vs how much dps 110 AP gives you. 110 AP is approximately 2% more damage. (That part will depend on gear yes but it'll be around that). DST proccing 3 times a minute will give 30 seconds of 20% more damage, that's 10% more damage overall. It's not even comparable. DST proccing 2 times a minute will give 20 seconds of 20% more damage, that's 6.6666% more damage, again not even comparable. DST proccing once a minute gives 10 seconds of 20% more damage, that's 3.3333% more damage, still more than BC.
It depends if you can use the extra haste from the DST. This is generally a question best left to a spreadsheet, or exhaustive testing.
#2500SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sienna
If DST proccing gets your autoshot speed below 1.5 alone then yeah it's not 100% bonus, but who has that much passive haste which combined with 325 from DST can bring auto speed below 1.5? I got 115 passive haste on me, and still use DST as BM. The auto speed is 1.63 under a DST proc so it gets 100% benefit with auto/steady rotation. Quick Shots + DST is 1.41 and that's the only time it starts getting below 100% benefit. I use a 2.9 speed weapon.
#2501SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
If DST proccing gets your autoshot speed below 1.5 alone then yeah it's not 100% bonus, but who has that much passive haste which combined with 325 from DST can bring auto speed below 1.5? I got 115 passive haste on me, and still use DST as BM. The auto speed is 1.63 under a DST proc so it gets 100% benefit with auto/steady rotation. Quick Shots + DST is 1.41 and that's the only time it starts getting below 100% benefit. I use a 2.9 speed weapon.
Wouldn't the passive haste + DST have to take you below 1.0 Auto Shot speed in order to lose full advantage of DST?

1.0 + .5 Auto Shot animation = 1.5 = GCD complete and a new Steady Shot can be fired.

Or am I wrong in assuming the Auto Shot can fire before the GCD is complete?
#2502SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Glaurong
Something I noticed last night in ZA that I hadn't before and I don't remember it being mentioned here.

I appears that pet attack speed caps at 0.99 seconds. No matter what buffs my pet gets, it simply will not go below this. Is this new? Have I just not noticed it before?
#2503SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Something I noticed last night in ZA that I hadn't before and I don't remember it being mentioned here.

I appears that pet attack speed caps at 0.99 seconds. No matter what buffs my pet gets, it simply will not go below this. Is this new? Have I just not noticed it before?
Should be simple to test with a Shaman or a leatherworker. Test statically, then in combat with Frenzy proc'd. It could also be a function of the character sheet display. I'd use a combat log to check actual attack frequency.
#2504SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Thrankul
25 Man Hunter Weapons

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm not sure where else this question would go, so.. here goes, and if it's the wrong spot, let me know.

I'm using Cheeky's spreadsheet to look at possible gear upgrades, and I'm confused. My current gear and spec (41/20 BM) can be found here: The World of Warcraft Armory

Running that into the spreadsheet, and upgrading to the longbow off of Vashj i see a DROP in dps. The first thing I thought of was that maybe it was due to weapon speed, but even going to the Arcanite Steam Pistol off of Al'ar gives a drop. So my question here is - what am I missing, or are there really no hunter weapons in SSC or TK that are actually better for a BM hunter than KZ drops, and if so, what WOULD be better?
#2505SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mugsley
You just answered your own question. The difference is getting a hold of ZA gear. The haste in that gear can allow you to use slower weapons to better effect.

-------------------

My turn: When is it a good idea to start adding in Arcane and Multi shots for a BM? Pop them when we have to throw a KC? I'm trying to look for other ways to bump up my DPS besides just Auto-Steady.

I'm working on higher DPS time, but in fights like Aran, Gruul (for the most part), Mag, and even Dragonhawk in ZA; there's so much movement that it's tough.
#2506SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Well, I wouldn't worry too much about that... on itself the bow off vashj and the gun off al'ar are a bit too slow for BM. Heck, even steelhawk is not ideal. Basically, without haste gear, [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] is the best BM weapon in the game so far. However, all that changes when haste comes into play. That means Wolfslayer becomes a bit too fast and the slower weapons get close to what an unhasted Wolfslayer used to be. I'm not sure how much haste rating you need to stack, but as a brief estimate, I'd say at the very least 2 pieces, even if they're the badge leather items.
#2507SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sienna
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Wouldn't the passive haste + DST have to take you below 1.0 Auto Shot speed in order to lose full advantage of DST?

1.0 + .5 Auto Shot animation = 1.5 = GCD complete and a new Steady Shot can be fired.

Or am I wrong in assuming the Auto Shot can fire before the GCD is complete?
When your auto cooldown is below 1.5 you cannot shoot steady and an auto every 1.5 seconds anymore. So you are not getting x% damage if you get x% more haste.
#2508SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Thorongil
Originally Posted by Mugsley View Post
You just answered your own question. The difference is getting a hold of ZA gear. The haste in that gear can allow you to use slower weapons to better effect.

-------------------

My turn: When is it a good idea to start adding in Arcane and Multi shots for a BM? Pop them when we have to throw a KC? I'm trying to look for other ways to bump up my DPS besides just Auto-Steady.

I'm working on higher DPS time, but in fights like Aran, Gruul (for the most part), Mag, and even Dragonhawk in ZA; there's so much movement that it's tough.
Basically Auto-Steady gives you the best single-target-dps. You can weave in Multi if you´re sure more targets will be hit (normally the case when fighting trashmobs) and Arcane when you´re moving and thus can´t cast steady. But in normal bossfights it will mostly come down to auto-steady.

I also didn´t accept this for a long time, always going out with Arcane and Multi on bosses. Though, you don´t gain benefit of it, you just destroy your rotation. You get the same or even a better dps if you "just" run a clean rotation with auto-steady. Also, you can use AotH throughout nearly every bossfight and if you have a Shaman + BoW you don´t even have to chain-chug mana-pots.

For the reason, why a auto-steady-rotation in many cases out-dpses a full-special-rotation for BM check Hunter shot rotation illustrated.
#2509SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Thorongil View Post
Basically Auto-Steady gives you the best single-target-dps. You can weave in Multi if you´re sure more targets will be hit (normally the case when fighting trashmobs) and Arcane when you´re moving and thus can´t cast steady. But in normal bossfights it will mostly come down to auto-steady.

I also didn´t accept this for a long time, always going out with Arcane and Multi on bosses. Though, you don´t gain benefit of it, you just destroy your rotation. You get the same or even a better dps if you "just" run a clean rotation with auto-steady. Also, you can use AotH throughout nearly every bossfight and if you have a Shaman + BoW you don´t even have to chain-chug mana-pots.

For the reason, why a auto-steady-rotation in many cases out-dpses a full-special-rotation for BM check Hunter shot rotation illustrated.
This is not entirely accurate. Maintaining an auto/steady rotation is not the best DPS a BM hunter can do. You are on the right track though. BM hunters need to maintain a 1:1 shot ratio which means for every one special shot you should fire an auto shot in between. Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady.... etc etc will get you a long way but if you want to DPS to your maximum potential you need to substitute arcane shots and multi shots for steady shots on occasion. For example you might, Auto, Multi, Auto, Arcane, Auto, Steady and continue to use multi/arcane as the priority over steady shot. Arcane and multi do more damage than steady shot until late T6 gear where steady shot has the potential to do more damage. Armor penetration would also play a key role in boosting the value of steady shot over arcane shot.

Obviously mana becomes a concern with the more expensive shots but each hunter will have to handle that in their own way. Spriests are by far the easiest way, but you might need to use a resto shaman, mana oil, and chain chugging mana pots as well. If you are OOM then steady/auto only is great, but otherwise it can't compete with the "1:1 Multi/Arcane Priority" rotation.
#2510SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Grogzor
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Something I noticed last night in ZA that I hadn't before and I don't remember it being mentioned here.

I appears that pet attack speed caps at 0.99 seconds. No matter what buffs my pet gets, it simply will not go below this. Is this new? Have I just not noticed it before?
Unless there is a display error, you can get below .99 AS. A couple nights ago my pet had frenzy and bloodlust up at the same time, in addition to my Serpent's Swiftness and Cobra Reflexes my pet had the indicated .73 AS that one would expect.
#2511SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mugsley
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
stuff

Right. I just have my head so far into Auto-Steady, that I keep forgetting to throw in Multi and Arcane on the rare occasion I get a SPriest and/or JoW. I just wasn't sure how to prioritize Arcane and Multi in those cases (Multi still crits more often -- based on the number of times I use it -- versus my other shots; even though I'm BM) where I can use them with Steady.
#2512SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Mugsley View Post
s (Multi still crits more often -- based on the number of times I use it -- versus my other shots; even though I'm BM)
That is an illusion. They have the same chance to critically hit for you.
#2513SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Mugsley View Post
Right. I just have my head so far into Auto-Steady, that I keep forgetting to throw in Multi and Arcane on the rare occasion I get a SPriest and/or JoW. I just wasn't sure how to prioritize Arcane and Multi in those cases (Multi still crits more often -- based on the number of times I use it -- versus my other shots; even though I'm BM) where I can use them with Steady.
If maximum damage is your only concern then max rank multi will be your priority until the 15 and 20% bonuses of arcane/steady boost that damage above the static damage of multi shot. Arcane is second and steady shot is last. Just remember the 1:1 ratio and be conscious of some bosses with high resist (ie Solarion) where you should drop arcane from the rotation.

If you are having mana problems just drop the multi all together and use only arcane shot. W/O a Spriest you'll prolly still need mana oils and pots.
#2514SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ghoselle
Dual Wielding as a hunter

With the addition of +20 agi to 1H enchants combined with the ability to put [Superior Mana Oil] on both weapons, is it generally worthwhile to use a pair of 1H weapons instead of the canonical 2H weapons while raiding?

At the Karazhan gear level, [Legacy] seems hard to beat with a pair of weapons of similiar ilvl without putting mana oil on it. A combo of [Spiteblade] and [Emerald Ripper] appropriately enchanted and oiled seem to be an upgrade from Legacy, assuming you needed the additional mana regen.

Is there any reason not to do a gear build like this for raiding? Does this sort of trade off continue in to SSC/TK and MH/BT?
#2515SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by Ghoselle View Post
With the addition of +20 agi to 1H enchants combined with the ability to put [Superior Mana Oil] on both weapons, is it generally worthwhile to use a pair of 1H weapons instead of the canonical 2H weapons while raiding?

At the Karazhan gear level, [Legacy] seems hard to beat with a pair of weapons of similiar ilvl without putting mana oil on it. A combo of [Spiteblade] and [Emerald Ripper] appropriately enchanted and oiled seem to be an upgrade from Legacy, assuming you needed the additional mana regen.

Is there any reason not to do a gear build like this for raiding? Does this sort of trade off continue in to SSC/TK and MH/BT?
There really is no practical reason why dual wielding shouldn't work. It's still a matter of lower odds for 2 separate drops, and of having to spend dkp twice or to sort priorities on weapons twice. Also, the one handed weapons have stats that clearly make them a target for rogues. Most 2 handed hunter weapons, however, have agility, maybe even mp5 that holds back warriors from them.
Back when I ran Kara, one group ran with a dagger rogue and a hunter, and one (mine) with one or two sword rogues, and in Februray or so, [Spiteblade] was about the best a rogue could reasonably hope for. That means the hunter in the other group was able to get himself an awesome pair of Spiteblades, for minimum dkp,while I've seen 3 of them drop without getting any, and only one Legacy that i passed on, back when it had +Intellect instead of +Agility. I ended up spending a small fortune on an [Axe of the Gronn Lords] that dropped first. But even then, a Spiteblade combo used to beat Legacy on stats, either with 15 agility or intellect enchants.
Also, remeber that for a 2 hand weapon, you're pretty much set when you got one. For dual wielding, you have 2 separate drops to wait for to actually be viable.

Nowdays, the popular dual wielding combos would be [Netherbane]x2, [Blade of Infamy]x2 and [Dagger of Bad Mojo]x2. Personally, I still think a good dual wield combo is superior, even only if for an extra 16mp5 from a second mana oil. That doesn't stop me from having a [Trollbane] at the moment.

EDIT: at Kara level, if you can reaonably get your hands on them, get 2 Spiteblades rather than an Emerald Ripper. Not only for the stats, but you'll like the looks, as well.
#2516SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
If maximum damage is your only concern then max rank multi will be your priority until the 15 and 20% bonuses of arcane/steady boost that damage above the static damage of multi shot. Arcane is second and steady shot is last. Just remember the 1:1 ratio and be conscious of some bosses with high resist (ie Solarion) where you should drop arcane from the rotation.

If you are having mana problems just drop the multi all together and use only arcane shot. W/O a Spriest you'll prolly still need mana oils and pots.
This all depends on your gear and the armor of your target. These kinds of generalizations are somewhat misleading. Everyone should take the time to plug in their gear, typical raid buffs and mob debuffs into the sheet and see about how hard each of their shots will hit.

My Steady Shot, out scaled my arcane shot a long time ago, even on a boss with 7700 armor. My average steady is 1285, my average arcane is 1163, even my multi-shot only hits for about 1408. The extra 12 dps isn't worth the mana expenditure for me, and once I get my Ashtongue Talisman there will be no reason to use anything but steady/auto.
#2517SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
This all depends on your gear and the armor of your target. These kinds of generalizations are somewhat misleading. Everyone should take the time to plug in their gear, typical raid buffs and mob debuffs into the sheet and see about how hard each of their shots will hit.

My Steady Shot, out scaled my arcane shot a long time ago, even on a boss with 7700 armor. My average steady is 1285, my average arcane is 1163, even my multi-shot only hits for about 1408. The extra 12 dps isn't worth the mana expenditure for me, and once I get my Ashtongue Talisman there will be no reason to use anything but steady/auto.

If you look at one of my posts above you'll notice I that I've already said SS beats the others once you reach T6 gear. You have 4/5 T6 and it happens that your steady shot beats your arcane by about 10% so the math is near perfect. If you don't mind though, can you show a WWS of a fight, or preferably an entire raid where you used a 1:1 arcane priority? I'd like to see WWS of the arcane doing 10% less on average.
#2518SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aylek
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
...and once I get my Ashtongue Talisman there will be no reason to use anything but steady/auto.

Agreed. Asthongue is a great trinket for BM. I use it itogether with a DST and am very happy with this combination (armory currently shows PVP specc and gear). All the haste proccs mean that I can get some additional Steadys out for more Ashtounge proccs.

I will probably swap it for a Berserker's Call as soon as I can get my hands on one though, since Berserker seems superior AP-wise (Ashtounge is close to Bloodlust as a non-BM if I remember right). Calculating Ashtounge is difficult when considering both fully specced AOTH and a DST equipped.

EDIT: typo
#2519SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ishmaael
I found the ashtongue trinket to be highly dissatisfying, coming out below bloodlust brooch with my gear and general rotation (and also below my current setup in a straight steady-auto rotation)Maybe if my t6 pieces ever drop it will edge ahead, but its still an incredibly limited trinket imo.
#2520SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Blaarg
BM vs Marks in Hyjal BT

HI, ive been reading alot of what u guys have to offer recently and ive been switching between marksmanship and Bm for quite some time... my guild is progressing into hyjal and BT very soon and im curious on what tips u guys have for me... basicly whats spec is better overall... bm or marks. I have heard that many of the bosses in BT and hyjal are not pet friendly. I have also heard its still better dps to be BM untill u start replacing ur T5 with T6... If there is allready a post about this im sry for double posting but i was unable to find one.
#2521SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tyrae
The only fight in Hyjal thats a bit rough as BM is Archimonde. In BT Illidan can be a bit tricky, and Gorefiends acid spit needs to be healed quick. Rest of the bosses are no sweat as BM
#2522SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Bullwyf
Originally Posted by jessequach View Post
I been wondering for the longest as cats vs wind serpent. cat has a claw ability that cost 25 energy that can be spamable. like the windserpents lb. with cat having 3% more damage on the wind serpent. could cats actually do a little more dps with that put into our macro.
I was talking with some of my friends in another guild that has recently started up on Lothar and one of the hunters asked about the usefulness of having a Windserpent as your pet on ranged encounters like Prince. When I am not pvping, I am always specced 41/20, so my mentality is that of a BM hunter first and foremost. The doubts I had about a windserpent actually came when thinking about FI. Would Lightning Breath proc FI?

The doubts I have come from knowing that Blizzard makes distinctions between "Spell Critical" and "Critical Strike" and I read the text for FI where it says when the pet gets a "critical hit." I am just wondering if anyone can confirm one way or the other because I would really like to know.

Thank you for your time.
#2523SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Tsook
Originally Posted by Bullwyf View Post
Would Lightning Breath proc FI?
Yes, it does. However, your pet's spell crit rate may be lower than its melee crit rate if you are in a party with physical damage synergy (LotP, GoA totem). On the other hand, in a caster group it could be higher (Moonkin aura, Totem of Wrath).
#2524SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
1 run is not enough of a sample size, but some of what you saw was accurate. Leader of the Pack and Grace of Air both have no effect on spell crit. Lightning Breath has a base crit % of 0, plus 10% for the BM talent. I don't know if anyone has done research into whether or not pets get +spell crit from Intellect. They may not, since I can't imagine it's something Blizzard really thought about.
I'll quote Cheeky on this; Lightning Breath has a crit chance of 10% as a BM with the proper talent. Totem of wrath + Moonkin aura add another 8%.
A cat or ravager likely has much more than that, buffed with Leader of the Pack alone.
Also, the focus cost for Lightning Breath makes it unlikely to cast very often unless GFTT procs often (but that would mean getting in the physical dps group, which nullifies the pet's crit chance). Overall, Claw or Gore cost half, have a higher critical chance and get buffed by the physical dps buffs, as well as scaling with the same buffs on the hunter.
#2525SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tongaro
Ok done some searches and wasn't able to find an answer to this but my guild is working on Azgalor in MH and have decided to use the range max distance to out range the fire. I have read it has a 35 yd range and was wondering if I will be targetable by it since that is my range too.

If so how do other BM hunters that are doing this fight and use this strat handle it?
#2526SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by Tongaro View Post
Ok done some searches and wasn't able to find an answer to this but my guild is working on Azgalor in MH and have decided to use the range max distance to out range the fire. I have read it has a 35 yd range and was wondering if I will be targetable by it since that is my range too.

If so how do other BM hunters that are doing this fight and use this strat handle it?
Well, I'm not 100% on this, but basically, at the same range, you should be able to hit him while he shouldn't be able to target you. The reason for this is because he will have a much larger hit box than you. Now, from what I can gather about game mechanics (and this is the part where I'm not 100% sure), the range is determined from the center of the caster's hitbox to the edge of the target's hit box. Well, that's the theory, anyway. But, to back this theory up, some practical examples are melee being able to avoid whirls on Lurker by standing on max melee range, even though whirl has the same 5 yard range as regular and special melee attacks.

EDIT: Sadly, I can't share my personal experiences since A) I'm specced survival and B) Azgalor is next for target practice this week...
#2527SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Galred
Enova is correct - I've never been targeted by Azgalor's fire as a BM hunter if I stay at my max range (no Hawk Eye for me).

A tip for BM hunters on this one:

Set your pet on stay somewhere in between you and the Doomguard-killing area. Then use a macro to send in your pet to attack the Doomguard once the Doomguard tank has a little bit of aggro; this will let you get FI without killing your pet on Azgalor himself.

/assist [Doomguard Tank]
/petattack
/targetlasttarget

(So if the player tanking Doomguards is Bob, the first line would be /assist Bob)
#2528SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tongaro
Cool thanks for the advice guys and really haven't had much trouble keeping pet up and just pulling him out if he gets fired as I have full FR training on him.

Ok another question though think we are gonna start doing BT so we can get some SR for our healers and was wondering if pets get hit by the Tidal shield on Na'jentus and if it gets halved by avoidance or anything cause don't see taring them with Frost Resist for just that fight being worthwhile since it seems my pet will need FR and SR more for later fights in BT and Na'jentus being the only one where Frost would be good.
#2529SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aylek
Pets get hit by the Tidal Shield at Najentus, but since the damage done is conisdered AoE Avoindance helps here. Just try to keep your pet at or near maxium health. Your Hot and Chain Heals for the melees should be sufficient. Nevertheless your pet is likely to die once or twice during the fight, at least in my experience. There are always unlucky moments where one can not keep the Hot up because of Spikes, low mana caused by the lenghty fight etc.
#2530SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Well, to be fair, between Mend Pet, the constant Chain Heals, the 2/5 Rift Stalker bonus the pet should stay alive on Naj'entus for the full 100% duration of the fight. Maybe a shadow priest in the group / judgement of light on the target (which are both pretty much going to depend on your internal raid organization) could relieve some of the stress from keeping mend pet up, but, all in all, it should be no trouble. My pet currently only has avoidance rank 2 and no specific frost resistance training, but so far it has yet to die on Naj. All in all, that's quite a pet friendly encounter.
#2531SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Men
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
Well, to be fair, between Mend Pet, the constant Chain Heals, the 2/5 Rift Stalker bonus the pet should stay alive on Naj'entus for the full 100% duration of the fight. Maybe a shadow priest in the group / judgement of light on the target (which are both pretty much going to depend on your internal raid organization) could relieve some of the stress from keeping mend pet up, but, all in all, it should be no trouble. My pet currently only has avoidance rank 2 and no specific frost resistance training, but so far it has yet to die on Naj. All in all, that's quite a pet friendly encounter.
This is the only fight that I've found (depending on my group heal situation) that swapping out t6 gloves for t5 2 piece bonus is really handy. t5 bonus alone should keep your pet up as you can sit back and tear this boss up.
#2532SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tongaro
Cool thanks for all the advice guys look forward to riping this guy in two tomorrow.
#2533SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ishmaael
I find myself swapping in 2pc t5 only for Council, due to the heavy aoe going on. If i could snag a shadow priest I wouldn't though.

A few times I've attempted to use the 2pc t5 bonus on ROS, because my pet seemed to get "gimped" alot. Im not sure if its just the aura of anger (or w/e) that does periodic damage, or if its some mechanic which forces the boss to turn around and 1shot my pet (using targets targets target ive seen him turn and actually look at pets before more or less 1shotting them). Anyone clarify for me?
#2534SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0rokabud
Originally Posted by Ishmaael View Post
I find myself swapping in 2pc t5 only for Council, due to the heavy aoe going on. If i could snag a shadow priest I wouldn't though.

A few times I've attempted to use the 2pc t5 bonus on ROS, because my pet seemed to get "gimped" alot. Im not sure if its just the aura of anger (or w/e) that does periodic damage, or if its some mechanic which forces the boss to turn around and 1shot my pet (using targets targets target ive seen him turn and actually look at pets before more or less 1shotting them). Anyone clarify for me?
Your pet, like my pet often does, is being gibbed by Spite.
"Randomly targetted on individuals in the raid. After 2 seconds of immunity to all damage, the player will get hit by 7444-7556 nature damage."
#2535SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
partime
hi im wondering if u guys can help with so questions i have.
1) i see alot of hunters in BT/MH gear using 3 sec cast time weapson but from what i understand wolf sniper rifle is the best weapon in game atm due to the 1:1 rotation of BM, is there something i have missed?
2) would u use broodlust brooch or hourglass of the unraveller in boss fights? using DST in other slot
3) i read somewhere about using serpent sting as part of a BM hunter dps do u guys use it or just auto steady?

thank for your help in advance

Last edited by partime : 12/17/07 at 9:38 AM.
#2536SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Kalty
1/ I had this gun and it was awesome. Now I have arena s.II (waiting for vashj bow)
2/ Dependent on your crit
3/ steady/auto/kill cmd - serpent only some fights

Last edited by Kalty : 12/18/07 at 11:39 AM.
#2537SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Belaq
There's quite a lot you have missed!

Check out Cheeky's Spreadsheet - the number of 'which gear do I choose?' questions you'll have will be reduced 99.9%. The sheet is available in Excel and Open Office formats for your viewing convenience.

Something that hunters new to theorycrafting and The Spreadsheet often find confusing is why a lower tooltip DPS weapon (like the Wolfslayer) will show up in The Spreadsheet as higher overall DPS than a slower but more heavy-hitting weapon (like the Serpent Spine Longbow). Attack speed is arguably the most important stat for BM hunters, and that is what makes all the difference. Do a search on attack speeds and you'll find your questions answered.

If you are reading that Serpent Sting should be part of a BM hunter's rotation...well, stop going to wherever you read that. It's not true. Do a search on shot rotations and you'll find the answer to that question, as well. Short answer: don't use it, it's a bad damage-to-mana ratio. Long answer: find the search button.
#2538SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0nutteh
I kinda want to ask about what people think about hit raiting in BT/Hyjal gear, im 41/20/0 btw.
Every peice I upgrade, I seem to drop more and more hit, atm without any hit gems im at ~115, and to get back to the hit cap I would have to regem my gear, or drop alot of AP/Crit in gear, and worst of all its only going to get worse.
When I drop my t5 legs/gloves and start moving towards 4 of 5 t6/Bow-stitched Leggings It will drop even more.

And when I look at armory for t6 hunters, most seem to sit at ~80 hit, so basically is it no longer useful?
#2539SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Enova
Well, hit rating shifts from tier items to stuff such as [Halberd of Desolation], [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape], [Boneweave Girdle],[Quickstrider Moccasins] and [Stormrage Signet Ring]. I'm pretty sure hit does not become less desirable as gear upgrades. Actually, all those stat increases are worthless if you miss a shot. As for the hunters running around with 80ish hit? Either they're survival, or they're simply unlucky with + hit gear. I'd like to think they're not actually complete idiots sporting tier 6...

Last edited by Enova : 12/18/07 at 9:30 PM.
#2540SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tongaro
Yeah i have noticed the low hit too and to counter it i dont plan on switching from my 4/5 T5 till i have 4/5 t6 and when i do switch I'm gonna gem for hit in all my yellow sockets. I have done the math and if i do that i should be able to hit cap myself and be able to wear 2 or 3 pieces of haste gear to get those slow t6 ranged weapons down to desirable speeds.
#2541SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Hunterlin
One of reasons why limit +hit to 6% or 7% is druid spell Faerie Fire. Talented it adds up to +3% hit to raid.
#2542SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Jerem
The absence of +hit on T6 parts follows the logic of BC's itemization :

In T4 content, T4 hunters set has no +hit whatsoever, but belt, boots, etc do.
In T5 content, T5 hunters set has +hit, but belts, boots, etc don't.
In T6 content, the wheel keeps on turning, and we're back to square one.

You just need to plan your gear upgrades and regemmings accordingly (upon entering T5 content, taking my Sonic Spear out of my bank to "replace" Legacy actually translated in a DPS increase, for the 2 or 3 raids between replacing my belt (+hit loss) and my gloves (+hit re-gain)).
The annoying part of it is that, from one tier content to another, and depending in what order you upgrade your gear, you either end up having too much +hit, or not enough. It's only temporary though.

Last edited by Jerem : 12/19/07 at 9:43 AM.
#2543SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kaladian
My hit is like 55 until i swap out a ring and +hit food which puts me to +97 hit. I would love to get to max like the old days but the items from BT that are listed above seem to be the RARE drops from the bosses. We have been in BT for abotu 3 months and have Illy on farm for 1 month. We have 1 halbred, 0 boneweave girdle, 1 Shadowmoon coak which was 2 weeks ago, 0 Stormrage ring, and also 2 chokers off Supremus. Also all the cloaks/rings/necklace are items needed by rogues/fury war/enchance shaman/hunter in the guild. I have problems putting +hit gems in my gear since i will be getting those +hit items over time and since we have everthing on farm it isnt a big deal.
#2544SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Tyrae
Tossing a few agi & +hit gems into a socket is not bad man. The epic ones are a very common drop in Hyjal/BT, and it doesn't feel bad replacing them with red agi ones down the road one you get some of the solid + hit gear.

We to have had really bad hit gear luck as-well. We have never had a cloak drop, have just recently (like 3 weeks) been getting necks and a few rings after having BT on farm since like August and I to was like 120ish Hit for months.

I still have some + hit gems in my gear and I am not capped, but damn close (139). Once I get a cloak or a ring I will be over my cap and can re-gem my chest with some +10 agi gems. Compare me to the other hunter in my guild who has like 90 +hit and gets smoked on the dps meters because he has no +hit gems and passed on the + hit gear when it previously dropped and chooses to gem/gear up on raw damage gear and is now playing catchup.

Edit: I just looked you up on the Armory. Why don't you have the badge neck? The Choker of Vial Intent has decent stats and a good chunk of hit, I used it from Kara to BT. Also you could use the Cloak from Shade, and get a Belt of the Black Eagle made, put a + hit in that, even the ring from prince would help out your lower hit with out cutting a ton of dmg from you. If your current armory is your raiding armory then you biggest problem is your trying to raid in to many welfare epics. Run some Kara, SSC and upgrade some of yer raid gear, cause arena gear just doesn't top meters.

Last edited by Tyrae : 12/19/07 at 10:38 AM.
#2545SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Thorongil
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
My hit is like 55 until i swap out a ring and +hit food which puts me to +97 hit. I would love to get to max like the old days but the items from BT that are listed above seem to be the RARE drops from the bosses. We have been in BT for abotu 3 months and have Illy on farm for 1 month. We have 1 halbred, 0 boneweave girdle, 1 Shadowmoon coak which was 2 weeks ago, 0 Stormrage ring, and also 2 chokers off Supremus. Also all the cloaks/rings/necklace are items needed by rogues/fury war/enchance shaman/hunter in the guild. I have problems putting +hit gems in my gear since i will be getting those +hit items over time and since we have everthing on farm it isnt a big deal.
I do agree with Tyrae in most terms. You shouldn´t be complaining about lacking hit while wearing 3 pieces of PvP-gear. Also, just socket hit if you like to reach the hit-cap. A gem like Tsunami-Talisman can also help, but basically it goes down to what Jerem posted: You can´t expect to reach the cap when combining T6-Items with items like Vindicator-gear in the off-Set-Slots.
#2546SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kaladian
Originally Posted by Tyrae View Post
Tossing a few agi & +hit gems into a socket is not bad man. The epic ones are a very common drop in Hyjal/BT, and it doesn't feel bad replacing them with red agi ones down the road one you get some of the solid + hit gear.

We to have had really bad hit gear luck as-well. We have never had a cloak drop, have just recently (like 3 weeks) been getting necks and a few rings after having BT on farm since like August and I to was like 120ish Hit for months.

I still have some + hit gems in my gear and I am not capped, but damn close (139). Once I get a cloak or a ring I will be over my cap and can re-gem my chest with some +10 agi gems. Compare me to the other hunter in my guild who has like 90 +hit and gets smoked on the dps meters because he has no +hit gems and passed on the + hit gear when it previously dropped and chooses to gem/gear up on raw damage gear and is now playing catchup.

Edit: I just looked you up on the Armory. Why don't you have the badge neck? The Choker of Vial Intent has decent stats and a good chunk of hit, I used it from Kara to BT. Also you could use the Cloak from Shade, and get a Belt of the Black Eagle made, put a + hit in that, even the ring from prince would help out your lower hit with out cutting a ton of dmg from you. If your current armory is your raiding armory then you biggest problem is your trying to raid in to many welfare epics. Run some Kara, SSC and upgrade some of yer raid gear, cause arena gear just doesn't top meters.
Man orange and red gems are so damn rare for us it is insane, we have green/blues out the nose. For some reason my armory is old becasue i specced MM yesterday to PVP some and we are taking a 2 week break from raiding during the holidays. i wear the prince ring and sometimes the exalted Kara ring to kick my hit up to 99. I do wear the pvp neck/belt since i'm working on getting enough badges for the trinket and we no longer raid SSC/TK anymore so the belt would be hard to get. All in all i have been putting off getting though small upgrades hoping for the big ones instead. With 99 hit i miss around 1.0-1.5% of the time and to me that isnt too big of an issue. I wasnt complaining about my hit actually, to me it isnt top of my list of important factors since we dont have to tranq anymore.

Would you guys agree to get the Choker of vile intent worth spending badges for or better to wait for the trinket? I use mark of conquest along with bladefist?
#2547SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Thorongil
The question concerning trinkets/necklace is somewhat dependant on what you are planning to get through raid-content. You should get one of the heroic-badge-items, both will take you quite some time farming badges. But anyways, take one out of raid-content. You have all on farm? There is a variety of possibilities in BT and Hyjal (neck from Teron, trinket from Illidan e.g.) so focus on one of these, I suggest.
#2548SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Use Cheeky's spreadsheet to decide which item would give you the bigger bonus to DPS.
#2549SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Melkunie
Don't forget most hunters use different gear on trashpacks and during grinding/solo sessions then on bosses. So armory might give false information.
Im sitting at 104 HIT and when we go for a boss i swap in the badges neck and shade's cloak. Pretty low ilevel items but they still bring more DPS then doing bosses with 104 hit rating. Our guild has bad luck on terons cloak, councils trinket and illidans ring so i gave up the hope of getting them before sunwell.
#2550SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Soulcow
Originally Posted by partime View Post
3) i read somewhere about using serpent sting as part of a BM hunter dps do u guys use it or just auto steady?
You have probably read that here: Article: Ahoq's and Blomstershot's guide for Survival and Beastmaster raiding. @ 01.12.2007 - 15:21 | Nihilum.eu - MMORPG Gaming Guild and Community

Or from someone who has read it there.
#2551SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Shaile
To hit is actually overrated, percentage wise, crit is worth more.
#2552SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
To hit is actually overrated, percentage wise, crit is worth more.
I'm sorry, but I'd like to see some numbers on that; according to the spreadsheets, capping the hit chance is the cheapest, fastest and most substantial dps increase; pretty much every setup where I'm not hit capped yields lower dps, even at slightly higher stats.
#2553SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
I'm sorry, but I'd like to see some numbers on that; according to the spreadsheets, capping the hit chance is the cheapest, fastest and most substantial dps increase; pretty much every setup where I'm not hit capped yields lower dps, even at slightly higher stats.
Depends where you're getting the crit from, stacking critrating is marginally less beneficial per itembudget than stacking hitrating, but stacking agility over hittrating will give you far more damage per itembudget.
Item budget seems very messy on Armour Penetration, but i think thats far better to stack over hitrating too.
#2554SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0vith
I don't see how it matters where you're getting the hit from; you should be comparing whole items against each other. But yes, hit is one of the least valuable dps stats, second only to AP for a Hyjal/BT 41/20/0 hunter. With my "Wishlist" set in Cheeky's sheet, here are the values of stats (normalized to the budget cost).

Armor Pen: 1.08
Haste: .846
Agi: .795
Crit: .71
Hit: .67
AP: .66

Of course, these numbers all depend on many different factors so you shouldn't use these numbers. Use Cheeky's sheet to produce them for your own build/gear level. Months ago, AP was the best stat for me; now it's the worst. There just is no one answer.
#2555SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Soulcow View Post
Wow, that guide is pretty bad. Serpent Sting is still heavily mana and damage inefficient, and contrary to what they say, you cannot use Multi-Shot while moving.

You're ten times better off learning how to play a PvE BM Hunter on these forums than that guide.
#2556SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Escort
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Wow, that guide is pretty bad. Serpent Sting is still heavily mana and damage inefficient, and contrary to what they say, you cannot use Multi-Shot while moving.

You're ten times better off learning how to play a PvE BM Hunter on these forums than that guide.
Agreed. I was very unimpressed.
#2557SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Doomdx
Hi, Im a 9/49/3 MM hunter that mainly raids but also do arena and sometimes pvp in battle grounds. I've tryed BM in raids and i just cant get over the lack of AP i had as MM. I mean in a gruul's lair when we first downed gruul i was able to get arround 3400ish AP with Hourglass of the Unraveller Proc and using Blood lust Brooch. I also missed the 41 yard range with the 3 points into eagle eye. I was wondering is BM spec better for PvE raid wise. I use the standard Autoshot/steady shot Rotation, I feel i don't do as much damage as i do when I'm MM. Can anyone tell me other wise?
#2558SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by Doomdx View Post
Hi, Im a 9/49/3 MM hunter that mainly raids but also do arena and sometimes pvp in battle grounds. I've tryed BM in raids and i just cant get over the lack of AP i had as MM. I mean in a gruul's lair when we first downed gruul i was able to get arround 3400ish AP with Hourglass of the Unraveller Proc and using Blood lust Brooch. I also missed the 41 yard range with the 3 points into eagle eye. I was wondering is BM spec better for PvE raid wise. I use the standard Autoshot/steady shot Rotation, I feel i don't do as much damage as i do when I'm MM. Can anyone tell me other wise?
41/20/0 is without doubt the best raid dps build, unless for some reason you really can't use your pet for most of the fight. All in all, though, pet survivability at Kara/Gruul level should be 100%, though.

Now, 3400 AP during procs seems somewhat overstated for that gear level, even with full raid buffs and a flask, but I may have overlooked something. Still, you're looking at a steady (as in no procs or trinkets) 2600 AP during 25 man raid conditions as MM, which is quite a reasonable figure. However, going over to Beast mastery, you chop off a bit of that AP in exchange for lots of other benefits: 20% faster attack speed, faster pet attack speed, more pet criticals, a lot more pet damage, Ferocious Inspiration, a lot more mana efficiency from not using Arcane/Multi anymore, and a kill Command that won't screw up your shot rotations anymore. Basically, the trade off favors BM a lot more, despite whatever feeling you may have. The only way to convince yourself of this is by running some accurate damage meters (I'd recommend Recount, which records your damage as hunter + pet damage, but also adds a separate entry for the pet) or by comparing a few WWS logs with both specs, on the same encounter.

The 6 yard extra range isn't likely something game breaking, and to be honest, I've hardly missed it in my BM days, and if I wasn't so fond of Survival, I doubt I'd pick it up ever.
#2559SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Doomdx
Well maybe not 3400 ranged AP, but maybe around 3200 or 3300 i remember seeing it break the 3000 mark. I had every buff you could get and for flask it was of the bandit for gruul's cause it was free. I've respect to BM to see how it works out. Again i feel naked with out the 1900+ unbuffed ranged AP but i guess the speed at which i can use the steadyshot rotation makes up for it.

Edit: heres the SW stats log for that Gruul's lair run
Wow Web Stats

Last edited by Doomdx : 12/25/07 at 11:14 AM.
#2560SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Howitzer
Number-crunching aside, I'd say that once you get higher than T5 gear the MM spec starts to shine quite a bit in Hyjal/BT. I personally loved BM spec all through TBC up until late-Tempest Keep when it began to be a pain in my rear end just because of the pacing of the fights from trash to bosses.
#2561SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
So I just got the beastmaster shoulders from Hyjal and wonder if it is worth giving up my T5 4 piece bonus for the increased pet damage should I go BM (currently SV so haven't even put them on yet)
#2562SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
So I just got the beastmaster shoulders from Hyjal and wonder if it is worth giving up my T5 4 piece bonus for the increased pet damage should I go BM (currently SV so haven't even put them on yet)
Probably not. They have a spreadsheet for this kind of question. It can be found at www.elitistjerks.com
#2563SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
Like I say everytime I try to use the spreadsheet I fux it up. Can't even save a profile and I'm using Excel not Openoffice.

That and why not have the answer listed here for those who shall follow in my oft misguided footsteps?
#2564SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 vank
Because people will just scroll past this and ask the same question over and over again. There is a thread dedicated to Hunter questions. You can ask anything you want. I believe this thread is (was) intended to be for theorycraft as it relates to BM Hunters, not to help people choose gear.
#2565SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
Like I say everytime I try to use the spreadsheet I fux it up. Can't even save a profile and I'm using Excel not Openoffice.

That and why not have the answer listed here for those who shall follow in my oft misguided footsteps?
Because blanket answers to questions such as this are dangerous and can just as easily do more harm than good. The answer to that question will be different for each individual based on their individual spec and gear setups. In order to answer your question I would have to take all of your gear and your spec from the armory, plug it into the spreadsheet, and then swap the shoulders out. However, they are BM shoulders so I can only assume that you would change not only your spec as you mentioned, but other pieces of your gear as well.

Whether you like the answer or not, the answer is listed here over and over for you and those like you. The answer is, don't be lazy. Use the spreadsheet and don't come here expecting others to do it for you. If you are "fuxing" it up, that is something we can help with. There is a whole thread dedicated to the spreadsheet. Ask questions about how to use the spreadsheet if you are confused. Don't be lazy.
#2566SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
This is very specific. Is 5% crit better than whatever the bonuses the shoulders give you in Beast Master spec worth the sacrifice or not? The stats are on each of the items and I can link them if you really need. This is NOT blanket. This is very specific. I told the spec, weapon speed should not matter here. And no there is no other gear. The only change is the one I gave. No blanket change. That is YOUR assumption, not the given factors.

And why hate on being lazy? Work is for some, reaping rewards efficiently is for others.
#2567SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0whitemanfromtown
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Number-crunching aside, I'd say that once you get higher than T5 gear the MM spec starts to shine quite a bit in Hyjal/BT. I personally loved BM spec all through TBC up until late-Tempest Keep when it began to be a pain in my rear end just because of the pacing of the fights from trash to bosses.
How do you handle your mana? Aside from the typical consumables, what other sources of mana regen are you receiving?
#2568SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Belaq
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
This is very specific. Is 5% crit better than whatever the bonuses the shoulders give you in Beast Master spec worth the sacrifice or not? The stats are on each of the items and I can link them if you really need. This is NOT blanket. This is very specific. I told the spec, weapon speed should not matter here. And no there is no other gear. The only change is the one I gave. No blanket change. That is YOUR assumption, not the given factors.

And why hate on being lazy? Work is for some, reaping rewards efficiently is for others.
I'm going to answer based on how I personally use the spreadsheet. I think that other hunters here probably use it the same way. Instead of looking at individual stats and asking questions about that specific stat - in this case, 5% crit - I look at overall DPS (as a BM hunter, I look at the hunter + pet total). When I need to choose between two pieces of gear, I look to see which item will give me the biggest overall DPS boost, period. That is the beauty of the spreadsheet, and why people are telling you to plug in your numbers (yes, I know you said the sheet doesn't work for you). The results ARE extremely specialised. Stats are not just stats, and a +5% crit to you may produce a very different DPS outcome than a +5% crit to someone else... even someone else with very similar gear.

As far as "hating" on laziness... Cheeky et al. worked VERY hard on putting together this astounding spreadsheet for us to use. The very fact that we have such a tool at our disposal is *definitely* "reaping rewards efficiently" - wilfully choosing not to use it (or not bothering to figure out how to use it... it is very user friendly and most bugs can be worked out; it's not like people aren't willing to help you) is asinine and shows a disrespect for those who have taken the time to make it available.
#2569SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
So I just got the beastmaster shoulders from Hyjal and wonder if it is worth giving up my T5 4 piece bonus for the increased pet damage should I go BM (currently SV so haven't even put them on yet)
Let's just say 5% extra crit won't make up for a dead pet. I got that same pair of shoulders on our only Kaz'rogal kill to date (around December 10th, or so). Also, I'm survival. And my tier 5 2 piece bonus also depends on my shoulders. But after various field experiments during a little raiding break for the holidays, I'd say the beast tamer shoulders are a paradox. They don't benefit any spec except BM, since the bonus to pet damage is too low compared to the stats you lose. BUT, as a BM, you need the tier 2 2/5 bonus even more. So, no, it's not worth respeccing BM over a single item. But I can see why these would appeal to your typical BM with more than 2 pieces of tier 5 to sacrifice.

Personally, as survival wearing these, I typically lost around 80 dps on the blasted lands mobs. (went from constantly over 1100 to 1020-1030)
As a BM (in a PUG kara, helping some friends farm badges, if that's in any way relevant), my pet died twice during Aran's Blizzards simply because Mend pet alone couldn't keep it up. (No FrR, though, and the shaman alts weren't healing). Then, on Nightbane, same story; pet gets feared through flames with BW unavailable, I toss a Mend Pet, and nuke away, while my pet dies just as it clears the flame patch. One time experiences as these may be, they kind of illustrate Murphy's law...

All in all, and on an unrelated note, I think the only think that could make a hunter break his 2/5 t5 is 4/5 t6.
#2570SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Wunlastri
Actually it's the 4 piece bonus. So I'd be losing the 5% crit not the heal proc. However, with me getting tuskbreaker I've decided to give the sheet a 2nd try. Well, 5th but only number crunchers count.

And see Belaq, your presentation motivated me, whereas before I just heard "L2P spreadsheets"

...So i wasted 30 dkp. And Tuskbreaker > Barrel Blade Longrifle.

So, here's a question the spreadsheet can't answer. How much dps should I shave off of this ideal amount when adding in real game time mechanics like moving, starting up hunter mark, potting, ooming, etc.

Last edited by Wunlastri : 12/29/07 at 2:09 PM.
#2571SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0D_K_night
Trap resists and +spell hit

From reading around here I see that apparently the 2nd point in Trap Mastery is useless. I currently have 2 points in the Trap Mastery Talent but now I may be removing that extra point and putting it elsewhere.

I am thinking of socketing my BL shoulders a with a +8 spell hit gem and am just wanting to confirm as whether this will make any difference for trap heartbeat resists.
#2572SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Strifen
Hate to pop in and just ask one question but I cant find a solid answer anywhere and I've checked the search function.

Would training my pet in Cobra Reflexes give me an overall DPS gain or would the damage reduction not make the trade off for the haste worth it ?

I'm specced 4/5 frenzy if that makes a difference. Thanks.
#2573SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Strifen View Post
Hate to pop in and just ask one question but I cant find a solid answer anywhere and I've checked the search function.

Would training my pet in Cobra Reflexes give me an overall DPS gain or would the damage reduction not make the trade off for the haste worth it ?

I'm specced 4/5 frenzy if that makes a difference. Thanks.
Do it.
#2574SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tilethryn
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
Let's just say 5% extra crit won't make up for a dead pet. I got that same pair of shoulders on our only Kaz'rogal kill to date (around December 10th, or so). Also, I'm survival. And my tier 5 2 piece bonus also depends on my shoulders. But after various field experiments during a little raiding break for the holidays, I'd say the beast tamer shoulders are a paradox. They don't benefit any spec except BM, since the bonus to pet damage is too low compared to the stats you lose. BUT, as a BM, you need the tier 2 2/5 bonus even more. So, no, it's not worth respeccing BM over a single item. But I can see why these would appeal to your typical BM with more than 2 pieces of tier 5 to sacrifice.

Personally, as survival wearing these, I typically lost around 80 dps on the blasted lands mobs. (went from constantly over 1100 to 1020-1030)
As a BM (in a PUG kara, helping some friends farm badges, if that's in any way relevant), my pet died twice during Aran's Blizzards simply because Mend pet alone couldn't keep it up. (No FrR, though, and the shaman alts weren't healing). Then, on Nightbane, same story; pet gets feared through flames with BW unavailable, I toss a Mend Pet, and nuke away, while my pet dies just as it clears the flame patch. One time experiences as these may be, they kind of illustrate Murphy's law...

All in all, and on an unrelated note, I think the only think that could make a hunter break his 2/5 t5 is 4/5 t6.
If your pet is dying to things like Scorched Earth and Aran's Blizzard, I have to believe you haven't trained him in r2 avoidance. If Gruul hadn't grown too many times, I could mend pet through cave-ins with it properly trained.

I've not seen Hyjal and BT, where I think the 2pcT5 would really shine.
#2575SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tilethryn
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
...So i wasted 30 dkp. And Tuskbreaker > Barrel Blade Longrifle.
What other haste gear are you rocking? I only have the Arrow-Fall Chestguard, and plugging that into the sheet sets Tuskbreaker behind the Wolfslayer in my current gear. If, however, I picked up crafted BT shoulders/Bracers, that haste would push it over the top.
#2576SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ishmaael
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
Let's just say 5% extra crit won't make up for a dead pet. I got that same pair of shoulders on our only Kaz'rogal kill to date (around December 10th, or so). Also, I'm survival. And my tier 5 2 piece bonus also depends on my shoulders. But after various field experiments during a little raiding break for the holidays, I'd say the beast tamer shoulders are a paradox. They don't benefit any spec except BM, since the bonus to pet damage is too low compared to the stats you lose.

<rest of post>
This is a subject which I somewhat experienced myself, I got my 4pc t5 slightly after i had other pieces from the t6 zones like the naj'entus gloves (pre-haste nerf) and a couple of other items. I chose to break the set early (never really wore 4pc, talking about the heal bonus atm). Except for a very small amount of fights in the game your pet should be able to live through almost every encounter in the game. on the fights its NOT wasteful to wear 2p t5 to keep your pet alive, I still found the damage better using my 4pc t6. The reason? while the 2pc bonus is amazing and definitely something that should be available to a t6 hunter, its not directly increasing your damage at all. I trust myself to keep shaniqua (my pet) alive and instead focus on min/maxing to keep my damage as high as possible.

In regards to the beast-tamer shoulders, i have to disagree with you're assessment. I am a bm hunter and have been for all of bt, so i might be biased, but these shoulders for a BM hunter worked out to be the highest single item for the shoulder slot (as in without factoring the gronnstalker bonus). While the effect and thus the dps will be multiplicative with the BM damage talents and as such be more beneficial for a BM hunter, they are still easily on par with the akama shoulders ect. for a marks hunter. They have AP levels equivolent to the akama shoulders, and i think 1% crit less, meanwhile giving your pet 3% damage and 2% crit, seems like a pretty good trade to me, and cheeky's agrees
#2577SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
Tilethryn; Gloves off of Najentus is all atm.
#2578SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by D_K_night View Post
From reading around here I see that apparently the 2nd point in Trap Mastery is useless. I currently have 2 points in the Trap Mastery Talent but now I may be removing that extra point and putting it elsewhere.

I am thinking of socketing my BL shoulders a with a +8 spell hit gem and am just wanting to confirm as whether this will make any difference for trap heartbeat resists.
Using a +8 spell hit gem would be a waste of a socket.

1 point in Trap Mastery gives you all of the spell hit (for traps) that you need to be hit capped in PvP and for mobs up to level 72.
#2579SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0sneakymoose132
best DPS simplifed

So i have read many of the comments on BM raiding and DPS... to me its sounds like the best way to get max DPS(simplified) is the inbetween whites/auto attacks use "special" attacks such as steady shot arcane shot or multi shot. it sounds like many of you dont like multu shot because of all the mana...and on Rapid fire some people say it is hard to get in special attacks and not clip auto attacks. Others say use a slower bow/gun so you can still get in the special attacks

This is what i got out of these posts...pleas correct me if i am wrong.
#2580SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Enova
Originally Posted by sneakymoose132 View Post
So i have read many of the comments on BM raiding and DPS... to me its sounds like the best way to get max DPS(simplified) is the inbetween whites/auto attacks use "special" attacks such as steady shot arcane shot or multi shot. it sounds like many of you dont like multu shot because of all the mana...and on Rapid fire some people say it is hard to get in special attacks and not clip auto attacks. Others say use a slower bow/gun so you can still get in the special attacks

This is what i got out of these posts...pleas correct me if i am wrong.
Well, I'm pretty sure nowhere in this threads there's a mention of using slow weapons for a BM spec. Quite the opposite, a 2.60 or a 2.70 base speed (before factoring in quiver and Serpent's Swiftness haste) would be ideal for BM. And yes, you're supposed to use special attacks between autoshots, without disrupting (by delaying or skipping) them. Basically, for BM, the only special attack you'll ever need to use is Steady Shot, in between autoshot.

If you do so, no amount of haste from gear, IAOTH, Rapid Fire or even [Dragonspine Trophy] will clip your shots, EVER, because autoshot will hard cap at 1.5 speed, while steady will be hasted to less then that, although limited by the global cooldown.
#2581SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
If you do so, no amount of haste from gear, IAOTH, Rapid Fire or even [Dragonspine Trophy] will clip your shots, EVER, because autoshot will hard cap at 1.5 speed, while steady will be hasted to less then that, although limited by the global cooldown.
This is false. There is no such hard cap. It is possible to have enough haste to lower auto shot to below 1.0 and any time auto shot attack speed is below 1.5, the GCD, your special shots will clip auto shot. This is easily modeled in Cheeky's spreadsheet using a [Dragonspine Trophy],Quickshots and a [Barrel-Blade Longrifle]. However, it is generally still higher DPS during these times to maintain the 1:1 shot rotation and accept the small clipping.

With max passive haste (405 for hunters) and several haste procs there may come a time where pure auto shot is the highest DPS available, but that would have to come with an attack speed of ~.5 and the gear required to get there would lower overall DPS so it's not a legitimate concern.
#2582SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Wunlastri
While its still viable to 1:1 at say 1.3 to 1.1 maybe, can the same be said when you go below 1.0 weapon speed? When I had the BBL I would regularly have QS, DST Haste, RF, Bloodlust from a shaman, and ~70% hp berserking on and get below .8 weapon speed. And steady shots just were a waste then.
#2583SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Trohck
When you go significantly below 1.5 attack speed, that's when you start doing a 1:2 rotation. 1 Arcane, Multishot, or Steady Shot, then 2 Autos while your GCD cools. At that degree of haste Steady Shot will have a very short cast time and won't delay auto by much.
#2584SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
While its still viable to 1:1 at say 1.3 to 1.1 maybe, can the same be said when you go below 1.0 weapon speed? When I had the BBL I would regularly have QS, DST Haste, RF, Bloodlust from a shaman, and ~70% hp berserking on and get below .8 weapon speed. And steady shots just were a waste then.
Trohck speaks the truth.

However, you're either trying to brag or you're doing a foolish thing. You should never be under more than three haste effects at once. QS, DST cannot be easily controlled and will proc at random. All other haste effects are on a cooldown and should be staggered to get the most benefit from them. The BM hunter is all about 1:1 ratio. Using haste to tighten up the 1:1 ratio is a good thing. Using haste to break the 1:1 ratio is a foolish thing and should be avoided. This might require some co-ordination on bloodlust and drums of battle, but that shouldn't be a problem.

This isn't to say you won't do more burst damage if you pop a bazillion haste effects all at once, but over a 10 minute fight staggering your haste effects will be significantly better DPS.
#2585SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Tsook
I think there probably is a cap on auto shot speed, although I agree it's not 1.5. Whatever the cast time of autoshot is (which most of us seem to approximate as .5 sec) seems like it could not be overcome with any amount of haste -- especially considering various tests I saw in one of the (dear lord do we really have) 7 hunter theorycrafting threads in this forum which indicated the auto-shot cast time is not affected by haste.

I'm pretty sure that the character sheet will display attack speeds below .5, as for a while the best weapon I had access to was [Consortium Blaster] and I had a DST and a shaman. Let's see... 2.4/1.15/1.2/1.4/1.1/1.41/1.15/1.3 is .54, still not less than .5, so maybe I'm misremembering. Anyway -- I would suspect that autoshot speed cannot go below ~.5, regardless of what the character sheet displays. Perhaps I'll do some testing with my [Hurricane] later.
#2586SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Tsook,

I'm sure you're right, but that sounds like a fun test all the same. Let us know how the results come out. ;-)
#2587SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0partime
hi this is my WWS log from first boss of Zul'Amen Nalorakk
Wow Web Stats

Group set up was protadin proc warrior warlock and fury warrior, had both blessing of might and blessing of kings, druid buff, arcane intellect and priest buffs. Karazhan epic arrows aswell.
I am quite interest get see my dps using a 2.9 weapon, using auto shot steady shot and slipping arcane shot after steady shot when it was off cooldown.
I am confused due to i was under the impression that as a BM hunter you only used auto steady and kill command?
#2588SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Doomglazer
Hello i'm new here just got a few questions conserning my hunter and his pet (cat)

Atm i'm 41/20/0 a full dps bm build. Now 1 thing keeps playing with my mind and that whas too choose bewteen
2/2 Animal handler 4/5 Frenzy or 1/2 AH 5/5 Frenzy. Now my question is what will give my pet more dps. If there is any theorycrafter out there that could help me with this dillema please. My pet is a full dps cat.

Other question a short one
Should I put max points in stam or in armor for my pet ? I have the tier 5 2-set bonus if that can help.

And final question is a pvp one
I have some pvp gear that i use but it's socketed with pure agi/AP gems. Should i focus more on res and stam or whas the agi/ap a good choise?

Thanx in advance and looking forward to your replies

Last edited by Doomglazer : 01/04/08 at 6:03 PM. Reason: Cat pushed enter too soon
#2589SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Galred
Doomglazer:

2/2 Animal Handler is better, because it adds +hit to your pet. Frenzy will be up often with 4/5 anyway (4 points in Frenzy is pretty standard at this point). Pets have a high miss rate in general, and if your pet doesn't hit it isn't going to crit either.

I prefer to put points in STA instead of armor, usually what kills my pet is not physical damage and therefore would not be mitigated by more armor.

Regarding PvP - for BGs, it doesn't matter much. For Arena, when you lose a match is it because you die too quickly or because you aren't putting out enough damage?
#2590SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Doomglazer
thanx for teh quick responce. When we loose i died to quickly :-) Have atm 122 res and can get over 10k of hp i don't rly think the damage output is a problem since i'm most of the time in the top5 of raiding 25-man instances. I know pvp and pve are a different thing but still :-)
#2591SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Galred
Originally Posted by Doomglazer View Post
thanx for teh quick responce. When we loose i died to quickly :-) Have atm 122 res and can get over 10k of hp i don't rly think the damage output is a problem since i'm most of the time in the top5 of raiding 25-man instances. I know pvp and pve are a different thing but still :-)
In that case I'd suggest gemming for Resilience/Stamina with your pvp gear. Plan on getting to eat a few seconds of mace stuns from every rogue/warrior you see, and get more resilience to counter your opponents' burst.
#2592SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mendit
Beast-Tamer's Shoulders Cont.

I've been a reader here for quite some time, and since I'm fairy new to the hunter class, it's made me a dramatically better hunter than I could have ever imagined. Enough of the rainbows...

I apologize for not responding earlier to the most recent posts about this item but, my question is about the Beast-Tamer's shoulders in particular. Has anyone considered possibly switching to more of a utility animal with these?

What I mean to say is it's easy to say pets with high damage modifyers will... do more damage, and net you an increase as well. But I'm wondering, Has anyone considered switching to a pet like an Owl or a Bat who's damage modifyer is slightly less to begin with, but carries with it a raid wise debuff?

Having these shoulers equipped may bring the damage of an Owl or Bat "closer" to what we would see in say, a Cat (without the Beast-Tamer's equipped), and also give you the utility of the Screech debuff for your raid. Does this seem reasonable or am I grasping for straws?
#2593SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Mendit View Post
I've been a reader here for quite some time, and since I'm fairy new to the hunter class, it's made me a dramatically better hunter than I could have ever imagined. Enough of the rainbows...

I apologize for not responding earlier to the most recent posts about this item but, my question is about the Beast-Tamer's shoulders in particular. Has anyone considered possibly switching to more of a utility animal with these?

What I mean to say is it's easy to say pets with high damage modifyers will... do more damage, and net you an increase as well. But I'm wondering, Has anyone considered switching to a pet like an Owl or a Bat who's damage modifyer is slightly less to begin with, but carries with it a raid wise debuff?

Having these shoulers equipped may bring the damage of an Owl or Bat "closer" to what we would see in say, a Cat (without the Beast-Tamer's equipped), and also give you the utility of the Screech debuff for your raid. Does this seem reasonable or am I grasping for straws?
Would you prefer 3% of 110 or 3% of 90? Your pet debuff isn't likely to up raid DPS much, maybe not even at all if you're raid is already using improved CoW or Demo Shout. This is a simple question as far as I'm concerned. Use the higher damage pet.
#2594SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mendit
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Would you prefer 3% of 110 or 3% of 90? Your pet debuff isn't likely to up raid DPS much, maybe not even at all if you're raid is already using improved CoW or Demo Shout. This is a simple question as far as I'm concerned. Use the higher damage pet.
The question wasn't so much geared towards say, a bear. I'm particularly interested in Bats and Owls as this would in essence make your arguement "3%of 110 vs 3%of 107" if I'm correct. The benifit being the screech debuff which I image may mitigate a substantial amount of damage over some of the more lengthy, add pounding fights.

Say you were one of two hunters in a raid, you had this item, the other didn't. I don't think anyone would laugh at you for choosing an Owl to his Cat. Your pet does a substantial amount of damage mitigation, and your shoulders make up for most of the lost damage that an Owl faces as compared to the Cat species. In this example, your damage would still be comparable to the other hunter, while adding a debuff that seems pretty impressive.
#2595SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Mendit View Post
The question wasn't so much geared towards say, a bear. I'm particularly interested in Bats and Owls as this would in essence make your arguement "3%of 110 vs 3%of 107" if I'm correct. The benifit being the screech debuff which I image may mitigate a substantial amount of damage over some of the more lengthy, add pounding fights.

Say you were one of two hunters in a raid, you had this item, the other didn't. I don't think anyone would laugh at you for choosing an Owl to his Cat. Your pet does a substantial amount of damage mitigation, and your shoulders make up for most of the lost damage that an Owl faces as compared to the Cat species. In this example, your damage would still be comparable to the other hunter, while adding a debuff that seems pretty impressive.
Mobs have a cap on AP debuffs. Screech won't have an additional benefit on a mob that has CoW or Demo Shout on it. The exception to this is when you are also using a CoR debuff, (which you should be) it would then be possible for this debuff to stack with CoW or Demo Shout, however, if either of the two debuffs, CoW or Demo Shout are talented, then screech will again have little to no effect even with a CoR on the mob. If it's adds you're worried about, as you mentioned, then it's almost guaranteed to have a warrior near to apply demo shout, and even more guaranteed that they won't have CoR on them. (Pause here to laugh at the idea of a warlock individually CoR AoE targets.)

Assuming the other hunter has the same gear as you, to include the shoulders, then no, the shoulders will not close the damage gap between your two pets. I think you'd be hard pressed to show any math in favor of screech, and even then it would only be situational. DPS is good for every fight. It's hard to go wrong by maximizing DPS.

I don't have time at the moment to find the math and research to prove all of what I just said at the moment, but I can assure you the information is here on the forums if you look for it.
#2596SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Johnny1320
Just a few questions, I have recently been expiriencing the higher end content passed Kara. I have been raiding in TK, SSC, and Gruul's.

I was told about macros that increase and better your dps and currently I am using this one:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

It seems to work ok, but the DPS output is nothing to the other hunters, who are dpsing 2 times my amount. I know I have alot to learn and I can't just rush into full dps overnight. It just feels bad knowing that 1 hunter is dpsing for 2 of me. So I was wondering if there was a new macro hunters are using now?

I have the lvl 70 ravager from SMV, 19.85 crit, 1500 ap (and rising daily), 117 hit rating, build is 41/20/0. I'm using the Wolfslayer sniper rifle (2.7 spd)

Profile added* http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Medivh&n=Mayra

My next question is I had always assumed Agility as good, BC came out and I followed AP more thereafter, However, I'm figuring going back to majority agility again to get my crit rating alot higher. What is the direction of choice from higher raiding hunters?

I'm open to any suggestions and critism, thats one of the best ways to learn.

Last edited by Johnny1320 : 01/08/08 at 2:26 PM. Reason: Added link to Armory profile
#2597SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
hebus
Originally Posted by Johnny
Just a few questions, I have recently been expiriencing the higher end content passed Kara. I have been raiding in TK, SSC, and Gruul's.

I was told about macros that increase and better your dps and currently i am using this one:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide();
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

It seems to work ok, but the DPS output is nothing to the other hunters, who are dpsing 2 times my amount. I know I have alot to learn and I can't just rush into full dps overnight. It just feels bad knowing that 1 hunter is dpsing for 2 of me. So I was wondering if there was a newer macro hunters are using now?

I have the lvl 70 ravager from SMV, 19.85 crit, 1500 ap (and rising daily), 117 hit rating, build is 41/20/0. I'm using the Wolfslayer sniper rifle (2.7 spd) I'd post my armory but the site has been down all weekend, but feel free to look me up whenever.

My next question is I had always assumed Agility as good, BC came out and I followed AP more thereafter, However, I'm figuring going back to majority agility again to get my crit rating alot higher. What is the direction of choice from higher raiding hunters?

I'm open to any suggestions and critism, thats one of the best ways to learn.
About the macro, as a BM, you can change the reset from 3 to 2. And with the 2.3.2 deployment this week, you'll have to add a ! before the autoshot:
/castsequence reset=2 Steady shot, !autoshot
Because in the 2.3.2, the ! will make the autoshot used as an specific action and not as a toggleing shot. That's why lots of hunters have been experiencing issues with this macro with the 2.3.

About your pet, you have a good dps pet, I would suggest you to use only the "gore" special , it's allways better to you that spamable attack, rather than using gore with bite.

About your stats, I would say that if your hunter's friends are dpsing 2times more than you, it's because you have a lack of CC and AP. As a BM it seems that the good ratio would be around 2K PA / 28-30% CC. Once you'll reach those numbers you should get a decent DPS, if you are using correctly the 1:1 cycle from the macro.
Also, 117 Hit is not enough now, the new cap with 2.3 is at 142. Therefore, I suggest you to cap your Hit rating at first, because miss-shot are allways a dps loss.

I hope those answers will help you.

Hebüs

Last edited by hebus : 01/08/08 at 10:29 AM.
#2598SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by hebus View Post
About your pet, you have a good dps pet, I would suggest you to use only the "dash" special (not sure of the correct skill name). Anyway, it's allways better to you that spamable attack, rather than using dash with bite.
The ability you're thinking of is Gore.

And on the subject of damaging pet abilities, is there any resource available concerning their scaling with ranged AP? My search efforts thus far on these forums and elsewhere have been unsuccessful.
#2599SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Kurisu
Petopia: Scaling
HunterGuide Theorycraft

SCALING

* Pets get 30% of the Hunter's Stamina added to their Stamina.
* Pets get 35% of the Hunter's Armor added to their Armor.
* Pets get 22% of the Hunter's Ranged Attack Power added to their Melee Attack Power.
* Pets get 12.87% of the Hunter's Ranged Attack Power added to their Spell Damage.
* Pets get 40% of the Hunter's resistances added to their own resistances.


All scaling is based on total stats (after items, buffs, etc) of the hunter
boom
#2600SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Hunterlin
Only pet spells scale some way with hunter AP, other abilities do just listed damage.
List of scaling pet abilities/spells: Lightning breath, Poison Spit, Scorpid Poison, not sure about Thunderstomp.
Though all scaling pet abilities have been nerfed lot to match non scaling abilities.
Scorpid poison did made scorpid best dps pet until few patches ago, lightning breath still makes wind serpent one of best dps pets.
#2601SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
The stat scaling I was already aware of. What I'm interested in is how the damaging abilities pets use (screech/gore/claw/bite/etc) scale which, apparently, only the non-physical-damage abilities do.

Originally Posted by Hunterlin View Post
Only pet spells scale some way with hunter AP, other abilities do just listed damage.
List of scaling pet abilities/spells: Lightning breath, Poison Spit, Scorpid Poison, not sure about Thunderstomp.
Though all scaling pet abilities have been nerfed lot to match non scaling abilities.
Scorpid poison did made scorpid best dps pet until few patches ago, lightning breath still makes wind serpent one of best dps pets.
I remember seeing some numbers for Scorpid Poison after the changes in 2.2(?), but has anyone ever run the numbers for Lightning Breath? Basically what I'm trying to get to is; at what gear level would the scaling of Lightning breath outweigh the 107% vs 110% DPS modifiers for Wind Serpents vs Cats/Ravagers/Raptors?
#2602SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2enia
I have the lvl 70 ravager from SMV, 19.85 crit, 1500 ap (and rising daily), 117 hit rating, build is 41/20/0
If you have access to Karazhan stuff, you should be able to get much better stats than those you have now. You have both a lack of attack power and critical chance that I can only explain by badly optimized equipment. I even believe you could have better stats with only lvl 70 blue items so there must be something to look around your stuff.

Also, 117 Hit is not enough now, the new cap with 2.3 is at 142. Therefore, I suggest you to cap your Hit rating at first, because miss-shot are allways a dps loss.
I often see such kind of suggestions which are, in my opinion, totally wrong and very uninformative. There is no particular *need* to reach the hit cap to increase dps and hit rating is very often over-rated for hunters. Critical chance has major boosts and synergies, and a quick check in Cheeky's spreadsheet will tell you that 1 crit rating quickly end up having a higher value than 1 hit rating. When choosing equipement, you should try to evaluate the strength of the each item's attribute, and certainly not start focusing on a single attribute before worrying about the others. If you simply go for hit rating, you might just end up by doing less damage and skip true upgrades because you'll only gain additional hits of poor damage.

I strongly suggest you to get Cheeky's spreadsheet (linked in one of the other hunter posts) and check the effects of items available to you, so that you can make good gear upgrade choices.

My 2 cents
#2603SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Trohck
From a raider's perspective, reaching the hit cap is a matter of utility that happens to also have a good DPS contribution. Having any significant miss % means that you will miss Misdirect shots on occasion. Also, for fights where you are using Scorpid Sting, a miss will interfere with your rotation and cost you DPS. Missing Tranquilizing Shot can also be a big problem.
#2604SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kamaa
Originally Posted by enia View Post
If you have access to Karazhan stuff, you should be able to get much better stats than those you have now. You have both a lack of attack power and critical chance that I can only explain by badly optimized equipment. I even believe you could have better stats with only lvl 70 blue items so there must be something to look around your stuff.



I often see such kind of suggestions which are, in my opinion, totally wrong and very uninformative. There is no particular *need* to reach the hit cap to increase dps and hit rating is very often over-rated for hunters. Critical chance has major boosts and synergies, and a quick check in Cheeky's spreadsheet will tell you that 1 crit rating quickly end up having a higher value than 1 hit rating. When choosing equipement, you should try to evaluate the strength of the each item's attribute, and certainly not start focusing on a single attribute before worrying about the others. If you simply go for hit rating, you might just end up by doing less damage and skip true upgrades because you'll only gain additional hits of poor damage.

I strongly suggest you to get Cheeky's spreadsheet (linked in one of the other hunter posts) and check the effects of items available to you, so that you can make good gear upgrade choices.

My 2 cents
Practice what you preach. Using the spreadsheet will show that 1 hit is higher damage upgrade than 1 crit until you are at the hit cap. The only stats that beat hit rating in a 1:1 ratio are agility and haste rating.
#2605SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2enia
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Practice what you preach. Using the spreadsheet will show that 1 hit is higher damage upgrade than 1 crit until you are at the hit cap. The only stats that beat hit rating in a 1:1 ratio are agility and haste rating.
1- My explanation was not precise enough. Critical chance has major boosts and synergies but you need to use them to see their profit. The Mortal Shots gets your crit rating pretty close to your hit rating (despite the fact it's 22.1 versus 15.7), you have to use Kill Command in your cycle, and if you want to use GftT efficiently, you'll probably go with a wind serpent and its lightning breath. With such pet, the value of crit rating directly gets much higher than hit rating. Even with unbuffed ap values of 2000+ as BM, which tend to boost many things but not lightning breath, you still have a better return with crit rating. (for example, I actually have a 1 crit = 1.21 hit relation)

2- No matter what your hit rating value is, even if hit rating was twice as good as crit rating, there is STILL no particular need to reach the hit cap *to increase dps*. A crit-based item could provide a better upgrade than a hit-based item, it all depends on item availability, item level and where the item points have been spent. The uninformative suggestion is to go blindly for hit-based items for the sole purpose to reach the cap. This will probably lead you to skip better non-hit upgrades, and obtain a less dps-optimized gear.
#2606SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2hebus
Originally Posted by enia
there is STILL no particular need to reach the hit cap *to increase dps*.
Indeed, Hit rating won't "increase" your dps, but the point is to have 0miss on bossfights. After it's a personnal point of view, but with kara stuff it's really easy to get a decent hitrating. Also, I still think that 117 HR is still too low, having experienced that Hitrating on SSC / tempest boss, I had like 10 misses on a fight, whitch is definitly a dps loss.

Well, if I go back to stats you gave us, maybe you can stay at 117 HR for now, and boost your AP and Crit to 2K AP / 28%CC. I'm sure you can reach these stats quiet easily with kara / pvp stuff, and a good Gemme selection.
#2607SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Thorongil
Originally Posted by hebus View Post
Indeed, Hit rating won't "increase" your dps, but the point is to have 0miss on bossfights. After it's a personnal point of view, but with kara stuff it's really easy to get a decent hitrating. Also, I still think that 117 HR is still too low, having experienced that Hitrating on SSC / tempest boss, I had like 10 misses on a fight, whitch is definitly a dps loss.

Well, if I go back to stats you gave us, maybe you can stay at 117 HR for now, and boost your AP and Crit to 2K AP / 28%CC. I'm sure you can reach these stats quiet easily with kara / pvp stuff, and a good Gemme selection.
of course 117 is too low. HitRating caps at 142 for bosses. The only option is, to get a moonkin-druid with impFF, then you can get rid of another 3 % HitRating (which also makes it ridiculously easy for SVs to cap Hit) which I highly recommend since it also increases your pets hit-chance meaning +7% to Hit for your pet if you sum it up.
#2608SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kaladian
Originally Posted by Thorongil View Post
of course 117 is too low. HitRating caps at 142 for bosses. The only option is, to get a moonkin-druid with impFF, then you can get rid of another 3 % HitRating (which also makes it ridiculously easy for SVs to cap Hit) which I highly recommend since it also increases your pets hit-chance meaning +7% to Hit for your pet if you sum it up.

i was under the impressioon that +hit rating for the hunter doesnt scale to your pet. The only way to increase your pets hit chance is the talent we have in BM tree. Animal handler i think.
#2609SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kamaa
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
i was under the impressioon that +hit rating for the hunter doesnt scale to your pet. The only way to increase your pets hit chance is the talent we have in BM tree. Animal handler i think.

Your personal hit rating does not. However a debuff applied to the mob which increases hit rating against that mob will apply to your pet.
#2610SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Thorongil
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
i was under the impressioon that +hit rating for the hunter doesnt scale to your pet. The only way to increase your pets hit chance is the talent we have in BM tree. Animal handler i think.
Sorry if I forumlated it unclearly. I was referring to animal handler combined with improved Faerie Fire (Kamaa already explained).
#2611SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Johnny1320
Just an update. I have been messing with different enchants, replacing some AP with agility rather than going pure attack power on gems. Alread im noticing a difference, Hit rating is at 134, crit went up from 19 to 22. 38 ans attack power is almost 1600 (still working on it).

My plan is i'm replacing the scope on my rifle for a 28 crit rating rather than a +12 hit. Now that I've upgraded my gloves I can focus on getting my S3 2h which will add a good amount on my stats. My Bloodlust Brooch is underway, two more Heroics and i should have it.

Im also thinking on doing a full overhaul on my gems. Probably going to go with all agility even in slots where a different color should go.

Once again if any suggestions to my current plan please feel free to advise me on it.

Armory:

The World of Warcraft Armory
#2612SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kamaa
Originally Posted by Johnny1320 View Post
Just an update. I have been messing with different enchants, replacing some AP with agility rather than going pure attack power on gems. Alread im noticing a difference, Hit rating is at 134, crit went up from 19 to 22. 38 ans attack power is almost 1600 (still working on it).

My plan is i'm replacing the scope on my rifle for a 28 crit rating rather than a +12 hit. Now that I've upgraded my gloves I can focus on getting my S3 2h which will add a good amount on my stats. My Bloodlust Brooch is underway, two more Heroics and i should have it.

Im also thinking on doing a full overhaul on my gems. Probably going to go with all agility even in slots where a different color should go.

Once again if any suggestions to my current plan please feel free to advise me on it.

Armory:

The World of Warcraft Armory
Unless you are survival, don't go 100% agi gems. Even then it's not always best. Look at your socket bonuses, if the bonuses are crit/agi/ap then chances are you actually get more DPS by taking the socket bonus. You only ever need 2 blue gems for meta requirements, so put in 2 agi/stam gems in items with the best socket bonuses. After that it's okay to sub agi gems if the socket bonus is less than 2 crit. For yellow gems, use hit/agi gems until you're at the hit cap, and then use full crit gems. If the socket bonus is stam or resil, definitely skip it for more agi.

This isn't 100% because I'm not looking at your specific gear. Your best bet would be to use cheeky's spreadsheet and and plug in the gems I mentioned to see what is best for you based on your current gear. Either way, my advice is a sound start to get you thinking. Don't go pure agi.
#2613SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sympa
For anyone having problems with the steady auto macro.

#showtooltip Steady Shot 
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() 
/cast !auto shot 
/castsequence reset=3 !Steady Shot, !Auto Shot  
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] !Kill Command 
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#2614SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kamaa
Originally Posted by Sympa View Post
For anyone having problems with the steady auto macro.

1. #showtooltip Steady Shot 
2. /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() 
3. /cast !auto shot 
4. /castsequence reset=3 !Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
5. /cast [exists,target=pettarget] !Kill Command 
6. /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
Numbered for ease of reference.

???
I'm baffled. Why a "!" in front of every ability. It has no function with steady shot or kill command. Only with abilities that can be toggled on and off is it needed. Also, what is line 3 for? Does it make an auto shot fire before your cast sequence starts? Wouldn't /castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot have the same effect?
#2615SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sympa
Line 3 is from a previous iteration of the steady auto macro that forced auto shots to be casted - last patch there was some kind of hang up that would cause the macro to not cast steady-shot at random points because it would still be trying to attempt to cast auto-shot. Adding line three forced the macro to move through.
#2616SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kamaa
Originally Posted by Sympa View Post
Line 3 is from a previous iteration of the steady auto macro that forced auto shots to be casted - last patch there was some kind of hang up that would cause the macro to not cast steady-shot at random points because it would still be trying to attempt to cast auto-shot. Adding line three forced the macro to move through.

Okay, so line 3 does nothing now that this problem was fixed. Now I have another question. If you do auto shot before steady, as suggested by the bold text in my previous post, wouldn't that be higher damage by at least one auto shot? I know the difference is small, but I can't think of a good reason not to do it. My intention is to learn, not to antagonize, so please don't take my questions the wrong way.
#2617SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sympa
Not necessarily, lets say you've feigned and are attempting to restart your rotation. Putting auto-shot before the steady shot will force you to wait at least one cycle before casting steady shot again. However using an instant like arcane will help you get back into combat and into a rotation quicker.

This all being just thinking out loud since I've never use the macro with auto before steady.

Lastly, being the main hunter of my guild I tend to open with an instant - replacing the auto-shot damage simply because Usually when opening I am beginning an MD and while running into position for a boss fight the auto shot cast bar has moved so that all I need to do is remain stationary for a moment in order for it to begin my rotation. Yes opening with an instant isn't mana effective however when you have to be in motion while Md'ing obviously its more effective.

As an aside you come off as very aggressive in most of your posts, I might recommend trying to remove the attitude and sticking to the theory-craft.
#2618SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Hunterlin
I tried new castsequence today and disliked it.
1) it is noticeably slower than using manual 1:1.5 rotation. Time between 2 steadies(when one ends, autoshot is shot and second begins cast) with /castsequence was like 0.7-1.0 seconds, manually just about 0.5 or less with autoshot included.
2) New macro can still lock up... This occured in ZA when charging mobs did charged past me to target in my back thus getting cast and sequence interrupted/failed.

In end I tried to use macro and switched back to plain steady shot. May be things that I mentioned have always been so, but now when I am used to manual rotation since 2.3.0, getting back seemed strange.
Will try again /castsequence in tomorrow's bigger raids.
#2619SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Omegatron
I have a question about clipping, and macros.

My current gear and spec The World of Warcraft Armory
Its 41/20 cookie cutter BM for the most part.

My question is about my gun Barrel-Blade Longrifle The World of Warcraft Armory, its 2.6 speed and from what I have read I will clip shots if I pop rapidfire because it will drop me below 1.5 but this does not seem to hold true, well at least according to Omen threat meter.

I do not run dps meters in raids, but I seem to pump out more damage using the 1:1 macro after a rapid fire, and if what I understand that should not happen. I run at about 100 - 200 latency in a raid. It seems either I don't understand how clipping works or somehow do decent dps despite it. My guild does run dps meters and I seem to do well. Below is Lurker since its a fight a hunter can plant his feet /spam.

Wow Web Stats
Its nothing great but I did do 2nd damage.... so something I am doing is correct.

Also, secondary question. This is the current BM macro I am using any suggestions, I am not sure about the new changes in the patch. The macro seems to work differently now.

script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]null;[target=pet, noexists]null; Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Anyway I wanted to keep the post short. What can I do to up my dps the most, I do have the Steelhawk and Sunfury out of Kara as well. Any feedback would be great.

Last edited by Omegatron : 01/10/08 at 1:58 AM. Reason: Spelling and I am tired.
#2620SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shaile
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
I have a question about clipping, and macros.

My current gear and spec The World of Warcraft Armory
Its 41/20 cookie cutter BM for the most part.

My question is about my gun Barrel-Blade Longrifle The World of Warcraft Armory, its 2.6 speed and from what I have read I will clip shots if I pop rapidfire because it will drop me below 1.5 but this does not seem to hold true, well at least according to Omen threat meter.

I do not run dps meters in raids, but I seem to pump out more damage using the 1:1 macro after a rapid fire, and if what I understand that should not happen. I run at about 100 - 200 latency in a raid. It seems either I don't understand how clipping works or somehow do decent dps despite it. My guild does run dps meters and I seem to do well. Below is Lurker since its a fight a hunter can plant his feet /spam.

Wow Web Stats
Its nothing great but I did do 2nd damage.... so something I am doing is correct.

Also, secondary question. This is the current BM macro I am using any suggestions, I am not sure about the new changes in the patch. The macro seems to work differently now.

script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]null;[target=pet, noexists]null; Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Anyway I wanted to keep the post short. What can I do to up my dps the most, I do have the Steelhawk and Sunfury out of Kara as well. Any feedback would be great.
Because it doesnt clip. rapid fire also reduces the cast time of steady shot. with rapid fire, SS (serpent swiftness) and quiver your SS (steady shot) will be cast in 0.776 sec, autoshot takes 0.5 sec to cast so next autoshot can be launched after 1.27 sec, autoshot can be shot during GCD. Your weapon speed is 2.6 or 1.34 under rapid fire which gives 0.11 sec of space to work around with ping or other stuff. After another 0.16 sec you can cast another SS and repeat the procedure. I guess you could say the clipping will be 0.05 sec...

(reserving for any mathematical errors sicne its 8am and i havent slept yet).
#2621SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Greenpiggy
Clipping while under effects like Rapid Fire or Bloodlust is no disaster, it just means that you're not getting the full benefit of the haste, but you are still getting a benefit.
Barrel Blade Longrifle is the best BM weapon you can get ingame so stick with it
#2622SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kamaa
Originally Posted by Greenpiggy View Post
Barrel Blade Longrifle is the best BM weapon you can get ingame so stick with it
This is not true, but it's not far from the truth. Check out the bow from Archi combined with a DST.
#2623SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shaile
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
This is not true, but it's not far from the truth. Check out the bow from Archi combined with a DST.
Thats not quite true in regards to his post, barrel-blade longrifle is better than even britzleblitz striker. unbuffed its exactly 24,72 dps worse, and raid buffed its up to 43,9 dps worse in my gear which is quite a huge difference. Speed is everything when it comes to hunter weapons sadly.
I didnt account for DST since its too rare to account for, if you got it grats to you but most hunters wont. But yes if you start getting 10-15% haste from the T6 instance the slower weapons starts to overcome the faster weapons but then again, hunters having that much haste available to them are even rarer...
But even then, (in regards to DST) britzleblitz striker only beat out barrel blade longrifle with less than 1 dps.

TBH you should always cheek stuff with cheekys spreadsheet before you make such claims.
#2624SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Xurr
So I am hearing talk that Arcane and multi no longer delay or clip auto. Has anyone else noticed this or have any info on it.

It's being discusses on the wow hunter forums here

WoW Forums -> What Happened to Auto Shot?
#2625SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shaile
Originally Posted by Xurr View Post
So I am hearing talk that Arcane and multi no longer delay or clip auto. Has anyone else noticed this or have any info on it.

It's being discusses on the wow hunter forums here

WoW Forums -> What Happened to Auto Shot?
Id take anything you read on the official forums with a large grain of salt, afaik auto shoot still got a 0.5 cast time so if you use arcane or multi closer to 0.5 sec before next auto you will be delaying it.
#2626SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rhaeger
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Thats not quite true in regards to his post, barrel-blade longrifle is better than even britzleblitz striker. unbuffed its exactly 24,72 dps worse, and raid buffed its up to 43,9 dps worse in my gear which is quite a huge difference. Speed is everything when it comes to hunter weapons sadly.
I didnt account for DST since its too rare to account for, if you got it grats to you but most hunters wont. But yes if you start getting 10-15% haste from the T6 instance the slower weapons starts to overcome the faster weapons but then again, hunters having that much haste available to them are even rarer...
But even then, (in regards to DST) britzleblitz striker only beat out barrel blade longrifle with less than 1 dps.

TBH you should always cheek stuff with cheekys spreadsheet before you make such claims.
Just out of Curiousity, How much better is BBL than Sunfury if you have DST. I currently have Sunfury but don't have the option to get any other Range Weapons at the moment and wonder if I should try for BBL or just wait for Britzleblitz when I get the chance.
#2627SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kamaa
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
Thats not quite true in regards to his post, barrel-blade longrifle is better than even britzleblitz striker. unbuffed its exactly 24,72 dps worse, and raid buffed its up to 43,9 dps worse in my gear which is quite a huge difference. Speed is everything when it comes to hunter weapons sadly.
I didnt account for DST since its too rare to account for, if you got it grats to you but most hunters wont. But yes if you start getting 10-15% haste from the T6 instance the slower weapons starts to overcome the faster weapons but then again, hunters having that much haste available to them are even rarer...
But even then, (in regards to DST) britzleblitz striker only beat out barrel blade longrifle with less than 1 dps.

TBH you should always cheek stuff with cheekys spreadsheet before you make such claims.
Sir, I have used the spreadsheet, and I suspect in this particular matter I've used it a little more than you. It was a common belief that BBL was better, but in the last several posts of this thread here [Hunter] Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet it was disproved. BBL does not beat britleblitz in theoretical DPS and will fall even more short in actual DPS for fights that require any movement. I simply said the weapon is not best. If we are to presume best weapon, then I will presume best gear as well. They go hand in hand. Also remember for the slower weapon you need to switch to a 1:1.5 rotation while unhasted. You will see a bigger DPS increase like that.

Originally Posted by Rhaeger View Post
Just out of Curiousity, How much better is BBL than Sunfury if you have DST. I currently have Sunfury but don't have the option to get any other Range Weapons at the moment and wonder if I should try for BBL or just wait for Britzleblitz when I get the chance.
As Shaile suggested, use the spreadsheet.
#2628SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rhaeger
I would but I'm stuck at work all day and can't download the spreadsheet here.
#2629SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shaile
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Sir, I have used the spreadsheet, and I suspect in this particular matter I've used it a little more than you. It was a common belief that BBL was better, but in the last several posts of this thread here [Hunter] Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet it was disproved. BBL does not beat britleblitz in theoretical DPS and will fall even more short in actual DPS for fights that require any movement. I simply said the weapon is not best. If we are to presume best weapon, then I will presume best gear as well. They go hand in hand. Also remember for the slower weapon you need to switch to a 1:1.5 rotation while unhasted. You will see a bigger DPS increase like that.



As Shaile suggested, use the spreadsheet.
I doubt it. As i already said, theoretically archi bow might be better under perfect conditions if your guild has illidan on farm and you still do gruul for example but that applies to very few and is under extremely specific conditions (having exactly the right amount of haste for your weapon, in case of 3.0 thats 15% or pretty much every haste piece you can get ahold of). Dont bring funny theoretical games with a spreadsheet into practical situations for most hunters, and no if we are to presume best weapon we Do NOT presume best gear simply because the best weapon is available to pretty much every guild in the world larger than 30 members while the best gear is available to pretty much the top 1-3% and will stay best weapon up until you got the best gear there is for every slot on your character.
Noone cares about getting highest dps stat on cheekys excel sheet more than for a peculiar dps competition with no relevance to practical situations, noones gonna run naxx for example for [Might of the Scourge] quite frankly. And unless you can theory craft the dps loss from movement id suggest you stay out of guesses like that, just because the auto shot is faster doesn't mean you loose more dps while moving, it only means you have to stop more often, but unless i see some math i wont speculate in the dps loss or difference between slow and fast weapon. Also a 1:1.5 rotation isn't automatically more dps. That only applies to a slow weapon which BBL is not. With a tight enough rotation 1:1 is always the best dps. Even under Rapid fire.

cheers.
#2630SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Shaile
Originally Posted by Rhaeger View Post
Just out of Curiousity, How much better is BBL than Sunfury if you have DST. I currently have Sunfury but don't have the option to get any other Range Weapons at the moment and wonder if I should try for BBL or just wait for Britzleblitz when I get the chance.
With your current gear unbuffed its 9.09 DPS better, and raid buffed 14.11 dps. If you have BBL, i wouldn't take britzlebritz striker until you got every haste gear in the game. But id definatly take it over sunfury.
#2631SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Rokh
The real problem with that particular thread is the Improved Faire Fire debuff being part of the rules, I don't understad that, does everyone raid with Moonkins suddenly? Without that extra hit, the whole gear setup goes out the window, and you need to find more hit. Biznick's might make up for that, but I sort of doubt it.

Anyway, on the other side of the coin, I think it's just as ridiculous to assume that guilds farming Illidan are still killing Doomwalker as it is to assume those guilds aren't farming Gruul. Plenty of guilds aren't going to bother to fight for Doomwalker when there are Tier 6 raid bosses to be farmed. So either way I think BBL is just as rare as DST for a hunter.

Either way, use the spreadsheet, plug in your gear, and put in BBL, then use Sunfury and DST and see what your DPS is. That's the best way to see how gear changes generally affect your raid DPS.
#2632SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
synergi
Originally Posted by Sympa View Post
For anyone having problems with the steady auto macro.

#showtooltip Steady Shot 
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() 
/cast !auto shot 
/castsequence reset=3 !Steady Shot, !Auto Shot  
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] !Kill Command 
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() 
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Numbered for ease of reference.

1. #showtooltip Steady Shot
2. /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
3. /cast !auto shot
4. /castsequence reset=3 !Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
5. /cast [exists,target=pettarget] !Kill Command
6. /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

???
I'm baffled. Why a "!" in front of every ability. It has no function with steady shot or kill command. Only with abilities that can be toggled on and off is it needed. Also, what is line 3 for? Does it make an auto shot fire before your cast sequence starts? Wouldn't /castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot have the same effect?
WoW Forums -> Your Hunter is Different now - Here's Why.
Originally Posted by Howitzer
With the patch 2.3.2 came an undocumented change that completely changes the logics of shot rotation :
The autoshot is now unlinked to the "special" shots, thus there is at the moment almost no more clipping issue with autoshot.

This came after a hunter named Rubeus testing on the french official hunter forum tested several macros (to validate the "!") and it appeared that the following one was generating a lot more dps (with a bigger mana cost, of course) :

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


Spamming this, the combat log is quite strange, but it generates 3 steady shots for 2 non clipping autoshots, (almost perfect optimization). Auto shot seems to be working like the white damage of rogues.

After doing some tests with Dr. Boom, I'm pretty sure all this is the result of some bug with "/cast !Auto Shot", and not the result of Blizzard unlinking Auto Shot from specials. To clarify the situation (because there seems to be some confusion), what's happening is that Auto Shots are still susceptible to clipping, but when they finally do go off, a "bonus" shot fires alongside it. When Steady Shot is responsible for the clipped shot, this results in an extra Auto Shot; if Multi-Shot was used, it seems to result in an extra, simultaneous Multi-Shot occurring (which is pretty awesome for an MM guy like myself, but lends credence to the "this is a bug" theory).

This only seems to occur with macros using "!Auto Shot" (in other words, use a manual rotation, and you'll still clip without bonuses). I wouldn't expect the fun to last, but it might be a good opportunity for folks to play around and see what life might be like in a world of "unlinked" Auto Shots.

I don't know if it is "working as intended", but if it is, it'a huge increase (around 20% extra dps).

This could also make some huge changes in some mechanisms... i.e. - haste items would not be messing up cycles. Going under 1.0 attack speed may be viable? Who knows.

It certainly need some more tests.
from [Hunter] Shot Rotation Illustrated

Last edited by synergi : 01/12/08 at 11:35 AM.
#2633SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kamaa
Originally Posted by Shaile View Post
I doubt it. As i already said, theoretically archi bow might be better under perfect conditions if your guild has illidan on farm and you still do gruul for example but that applies to very few and is under extremely specific conditions (having exactly the right amount of haste for your weapon, in case of 3.0 thats 15% or pretty much every haste piece you can get ahold of). Dont bring funny theoretical games with a spreadsheet into practical situations for most hunters, and no if we are to presume best weapon we Do NOT presume best gear simply because the best weapon is available to pretty much every guild in the world larger than 30 members while the best gear is available to pretty much the top 1-3% and will stay best weapon up until you got the best gear there is for every slot on your character.
Noone cares about getting highest dps stat on cheekys excel sheet more than for a peculiar dps competition with no relevance to practical situations, noones gonna run naxx for example for [Might of the Scourge] quite frankly. And unless you can theory craft the dps loss from movement id suggest you stay out of guesses like that, just because the auto shot is faster doesn't mean you loose more dps while moving, it only means you have to stop more often, but unless i see some math i wont speculate in the dps loss or difference between slow and fast weapon. Also a 1:1.5 rotation isn't automatically more dps. That only applies to a slow weapon which BBL is not. With a tight enough rotation 1:1 is always the best dps. Even under Rapid fire.

cheers.
Sir, I provided you with mathematical proof that BBL is not the best weapon for hunters. You responded with nothing but opinions. As Rokh said, assuming people have BBL is on par with assuming they have DST. As a side note, you don't need a guild to kill Gruul. I lead PUG's into Gruul every week. When the DST drops it will be mine. That increases my chances of getting it by quite a bit. Time shall tell.

Archi's bow is better under perfect conditions, and it's better under imperfect conditions. The gap increases under imperfect conditions. There is a very simple way to test this. Go to Nagrand over near the forge camps and kite some of the elites "bosses" there using both a fast and a slow weapon. Run a good damage meter. There is no greater means of testing damage on the run than a simple kite. If you want a little more challenge go kite the huge rock guys in southern SMV. Either way, you're going to notice your arcane and multi shots are hitting harder. You aren't likely to get an auto shot off every time the "CD" is up, but when you do it will be more powerful. The same can be said for your steady shots.

Obviously this is an extreme and exagerated method of testing because most fights won't require the constant movement that kiting does, but it is a very easy way to model slow weapon > fast weapon on high movement fights.

I understand why you say BBL is the best weapon, I have said it in the past myself, when another person suggested to me that it might not be the best weapon, I did some more research of my own. That person was right. "Best" is "Best" is "Best". Best is not conditional. If you mean BBL is better during a lunar eclipse, then by all means say so. If you're going to make a blanket statement saying BBL is best, period, no alternative, I'm going to have to call you on it.

Being confident in what you know is great, but over confidence to the point of dismissing what others say without consideration only blinds you to what could be a better alternative.
#2634SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sienna
The new "broken" autoshot-link is true. I suddenly am doing 20% more dps with the macro posted above. Let's hope blizzard doesn't fix this soon enough
#2635SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2zork
This has been hotfixed last night.

/cast !Auto Shot abuse is not possible anymore.
#2636SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saryanne
Hello Fellow BM raiders, help me out a little please. I'm at work so can't give exact numbers but hopefully we can figure this out. I tried looking for an answer, but there are soooooo many pages here. Search didn't help.

I'm a pretty standard 41/20/0 spec, have about 1850 Attack Power and 31% crit. I have pretty decent gear, one of which is my DST, which may be part of my problem.

#1. Cheekys spreadsheet suggested I use a 1:1 priority rotation using Arcanes and Multis instead of the normal Steady / Auto 1:1. I tried that, seemed better on raids and on Dr Boom testing. Life was good. I was using my Sunfury.

#2. My WSR finally dropped, Cheekys said it was better then my Sunfury, so I was glad. So I scoped it up and got me a new ammo pouch. No other gear changed, yet my DPS has dropped. I tried using a normal 1:1 and not a priority, and it's still lower.

I am using a macro for both rotations. This weekend I went out to DR Boom. I did many 2 Minute tests, and using either a 1:1 normal or a 1:1 priority, my Sunfury was out performing my WSR.

Any explanaition? With my DST am I really better off with my Sunfury?
#2637SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2erb
Originally Posted by Saryanne View Post
Any explanation? With my DST am I really better off with my Sunfury?
Do you raid at a relatively high latency?
#2638SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saryanne
Originally Posted by erb View Post
Do you raid at a relatively high latency?
Thx for the reply Howie.

No, and that is what really confuses me. My "normal" latency shows as being in between 30-50 ms, with occassional spike up to maybe 75-100, but not often. My FPS (shouldn't matter,) is about 60, but that can drop to 40 on some fights.
#2639SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Thorongil
I need a little help concerning macros: I´d like to use a macro simply including steady shot and KC (no castsequence with auto). I tried to simply exchange the /castsequence with /cast steady shot in the standard BM-macro posted many times in this thread, but the KC isn´t performed at all. I´m really not good with macros so I would appreciate some help.
#2640SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Belzi.ET
I had the same issue and wrote this small macro with my little "know-how" gained here.
#showtooltip Steady Shot(Rank 1)
/castrandom [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
It doesn't generate any errors on your screen, shows the tooltip of steady (wohaa, amazing =)) and on the icon itself the cooldown of KC. So you can see when your last KC was executed and/or if there was a crit for the next KC (icon is greyed when KC isn't up).


Edit:
I'm not a friend of pure macro-button-mashing and therefore try to weave in steady shot manually.
#2641SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Sthellesta
Originally Posted by Thorongil View Post
I need a little help concerning macros: I´d like to use a macro simply including steady shot and KC (no castsequence with auto). I tried to simply exchange the /castsequence with /cast steady shot in the standard BM-macro posted many times in this thread, but the KC isn´t performed at all. I´m really not good with macros so I would appreciate some help.
Long time reader, 1st time poster.

The macro I use for this is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
This macro automatically casts kill command right before any time you try to cast steady shot. I replaced my steady shot button with this macro.
#2642SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tilethryn
Originally Posted by Saryanne View Post
Hello Fellow BM raiders, help me out a little please. I'm at work so can't give exact numbers but hopefully we can figure this out. I tried looking for an answer, but there are soooooo many pages here. Search didn't help.

I'm a pretty standard 41/20/0 spec, have about 1850 Attack Power and 31% crit. I have pretty decent gear, one of which is my DST, which may be part of my problem.

#1. Cheekys spreadsheet suggested I use a 1:1 priority rotation using Arcanes and Multis instead of the normal Steady / Auto 1:1. I tried that, seemed better on raids and on Dr Boom testing. Life was good. I was using my Sunfury.

#2. My WSR finally dropped, Cheekys said it was better then my Sunfury, so I was glad. So I scoped it up and got me a new ammo pouch. No other gear changed, yet my DPS has dropped. I tried using a normal 1:1 and not a priority, and it's still lower.

I am using a macro for both rotations. This weekend I went out to DR Boom. I did many 2 Minute tests, and using either a 1:1 normal or a 1:1 priority, my Sunfury was out performing my WSR.

Any explanaition? With my DST am I really better off with my Sunfury?
My understanding is that the DST is so coveted by BM hunters because it allows us to replace the Wolfslayer with sub-optimal speed weapons (Sunfury, Serpentspine, Ancient Amani) and make up the difference. Check Cheeky's sheet to be certain, but that was always what I saw when comparing DST/Slower weapon and noDST/Wolfslayer.
#2643SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Dolamroth
I was Wondering i keep seeing in the thread that a 2.6 or 2.7 Speed bow/gun is better for BM dps?
I'm wondering why this is i all ways thought the slower the weapon the more haste you could Stack and not hurt your
Auto shots?What am i over looking here?
#2644SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Omegatron
Originally Posted by Dolamroth View Post
I was Wondering i keep seeing in the thread that a 2.6 or 2.7 Speed bow/gun is better for BM dps?
I'm wondering why this is i all ways thought the slower the weapon the more haste you could Stack and not hurt your
Auto shots?What am i over looking here?
I think with the last patch, that no longer holds true. It seems shot rotations with slower weapons do not clip your auto shot as much. Hopefully someone might be able to explain my results.

I did a test today on Dr Boom one using 2 different weapons. I did the test 5 times on each weapon. Then averaged out the results via my mod Recount.

My test method had hunters mark on Dr Boom, and pop all my cooldowns at once, aka rapid fire and bloodlust brooch. I know crits and hawk procs are random hence why I did the test 5 times. I did not have my pet out for the test.

My spec is this The World of Warcraft Armory
My gear is this The World of Warcraft Armory

The macro I used

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

I also used the kara bullets and arrows with the 15% quiver and ammo pouch. Only difference in gear was my ranged weapon. Average lag was about 150 ms.

Once my hunters mark wore off I looked at my average dps. I did this with my Barrel-Blade Longrifle and my Sunfury bow.

Gun Barrel-Blade Longrifle - Items - World of Warcraft

test 1 838 dps
test 2 695 dps
test 3 742 dps
test 4 744 dps
test 5 773 dps

Average dps = 758.4

Bow Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix - Items - World of Warcraft

test 1 807 dps
test 2 790 dps
test 3 812 dps
test 4 776 dps
test 5 774 dps

Average dps = 791.8

I have used Cheeky's Spreadsheet and I am now confused too. I am seeing results that do not make sense. My macro results in almost perfect 1:1 ratio steady autos. (most I deviated from the 1:1 was about 1.5% either way)

As far as your haste question, you nailed it. You understand. Stack haste and slower weapons do more dps. I am now seeing with no haste slower weapons do better dps anyway.

If someone can explain my results please do so.

Last edited by Omegatron : 01/18/08 at 7:34 AM.
#2645SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.24G63
EDIT. Please delete if possible,thanks.
#2646SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Thorongil
I can confirm what omegatron is saying. I don´t have a clue why, but since 2.3.2 I don´t clip shots anymore. It´s quite easy to reconigze whether I do clip shots or not with EavesDrop and I always clipped an Auto here and there in the past (I use a 2.9-speed weapon, unhasted). I come to assume something might have been done to the 0,5-sec-Autoshot cast-time. I have no other reasonable explanation.

Oh, by the way: I don´t use a macro so I assume it has nothing to do with new macro-mechanics or likes of this.
#2647SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Saryanne
Originally Posted by Tilethryn View Post
My understanding is that the DST is so coveted by BM hunters because it allows us to replace the Wolfslayer with sub-optimal speed weapons (Sunfury, Serpentspine, Ancient Amani) and make up the difference. Check Cheeky's sheet to be certain, but that was always what I saw when comparing DST/Slower weapon and noDST/Wolfslayer.
Thx for the reply. According to Cheekys, I should gain about 15 dps using the WSR over the Sunfury. I only used the WSR for about a week before the patch, and it "seemed" like it was better. Yet testing on DR Boom proved differently, it played out like Omegas numbers above. So it seems like "something" may be different.

Were not raiding tonight, so I am going to get you guys some actual test numbers and WWS reports. In some ways, I'll be happy if I can use my Sunfury, but in others I'll be mad I wasted a scope and mats for a good ammo pouch.
#2648SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bloodwitch
(sticking in bm as convenient/logical thread)
dragon/human slaying > mortal shots?
couple of guilies are convinced this is so, sticking die hard to their 41/14/6 BM specs.
now i've always thought mortal shots was basically a no s*** talent for dps that you always got regardless of primary tree. just seems logical that being around a good 35% crit raid during a raid, doing 30% more dmg on a crit, equating to a ~10% damage gain, is always a better choice than the slaying talents when you have to choose between.

am i wrong? have hunters changed that much since i stopped playing mine (2.5 yo char) for a shaman?
#2649SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Omegatron
Go 41 / 20 / 0

Its better dps.
#2650SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Enova
Originally Posted by bloodwitch View Post
(sticking in bm as convenient/logical thread)
dragon/human slaying > mortal shots?
couple of guilies are convinced this is so, sticking die hard to their 41/14/6 BM specs.
now i've always thought mortal shots was basically a no s*** talent for dps that you always got regardless of primary tree. just seems logical that being around a good 35% crit raid during a raid, doing 30% more dmg on a crit, equating to a ~10% damage gain, is always a better choice than the slaying talents when you have to choose between.

am i wrong? have hunters changed that much since i stopped playing mine (2.5 yo char) for a shaman?
Well, every hunter that's even worth a raid spot will have x/20/x for Lethal Shots. Simple as that, and I'm an advocate of hunters getting spots. However, a point is better made with some simple math.

Assuming 30% crit chance, 100% hit chance, and an average, non critical shot (this can be either auto or steady shot, there's the same equivalence) damage of Y, while every other variable remains unchanged.

Control values; Neither of the talents in question
(1.00*70 + 2.00*30)*Y = 130*Y

Slaying talents (which, is worth mentioning, aren't working against undead, demons, elementals or uncategorized enemies, which rules out Magtheridon, Al'ar, Hydross, Void Reaver, Supremus, ROS, Mother, Illidan, lots of trash and all of Hyjal from the benefit list)

(1.03*70 + 2.06*30)*Y = (72.1 + 61.8)*Y = 133.9*Y
That means that on average of 100 shots, they'll do 134 shots worth of damage, or an average 3% more damage compared to the control value

Lethal shots (independent of target type, by default)
(1.00*70 + 2.30*30)*Y = (70 + 69)*Y = 139*Y
By analogy, firing 100 shots, they'll do 139 shots worth of damage, or an average of 6.9% more damage compared to the control value

Sorry if my explanation is confusing, or not based on real numbers, but that's the best I could muster at this hour. Overall, it all comes down to the fact that 30% on crits is better than 3% on non crits and 6% on crits, and the fact that Lethal Shots is independent of specific targets.

EDIT: Also, it's useful to know that a 41/14/6 build will never benefit from all 6 points at once, regardless what combination of 1d3 Humanoid slaying, 1d3 Monster Slaying and 1d3 Hawk Eye.
In effect, I'm comparing a 3 talent bonus to a 5 talent bonus (Aimed Shot does not impact calculations).

Hawk eye has no effect on the numbers displayed above; in fact, Hawk eye has no effect on dps whatsoever; it's an utility talent, and, as such has no place in a raw dps BM build. Humanoid slaying is nothing more than a PVP talent, really, after it stopped affecting Undead and demon type of targets.

Last edited by Enova : 01/19/08 at 8:35 PM.
#2651SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Thayer
regarding new macro

i ran some scenarios of the new macro on Dr. boom, and later tried it in raids:

the macro, of course

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()



i killed Dr.Boom twice on 12 Mana bars, stopping the first time i reached oom on each bar and drinking to full

6 bars of new macro, 6 bars of old macro

1st 2 sets, viper only
2nd 2 sets, hawk only
3rd 2 sets, hawk and all cds



i then recorded the total damage, Dps, and cirt percentage using Recount

old macro: 523784 damage, 26.91 crit, 683.0 dps

new macro: 461413 damage, 28.6 crit, 741 dps

thats 13.4 percent more mana for 7.8 percent more DPS

in all of the 6 sets, the new macro was always more DPS, but less total damage on one Mana load.




I tried it out raiding and i was generating an average of 100 DPS more through SSC then before, with no gear change.

old run, old macro, and i was always fighting with the same people for the top dps spot:

Wow Web Stats

new run, new macro, and you see the margin has increase dramatically, and on this run i was no longer potting or food buffing, even on boss mst boss fights

WWS Loading...

several fights i did go oom, and on Fathom lords i was viper stung twice by the hunter and was fighting oom by the time we down the first lord, the shaman.

It has been a marked difference so far, and right now my DPS is actually being held back because of threat issues i developed from using this macro




I was going OOM alot faster though, and had to drink every trash pull.

I was switching between macros, to conserve mana on certain fights, but then i figured something out:

You can use the new macro to get the effect of both macros.

For more DPS, you spam the macro as per usual, giving you the approx. 3:2 ratio

For more mana efficency, you use the macro button as if you are manually timing steady shot, and simply double or triple tap the key to ensure KC goes off, giving you a 1:1 ratio


this made it easy for me to go mana conservative when i needed to, especially in long fights waiting for a pot to cooldown.

i think this has alot to do with the new server side action queue, along with the latency eduction, coupled with the new cast commands.

Working as intended i hope.

This is my first post on these forums.....

Be Gentle!

Last edited by Thayer : 01/20/08 at 1:28 AM.
#2652SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Cheeky
Originally Posted by bloodwitch View Post
(sticking in bm as convenient/logical thread)
dragon/human slaying > mortal shots?
The spreadsheet can provide this kind of analysis. Just select a target the slaying talent applies to.

Last edited by Cheeky : 01/20/08 at 2:10 AM. Reason: Drunk posting
#2653SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Teldra
Originally Posted by Thayer View Post
i ran some scenarios of the new macro on Dr. boom, and later tried it in raids:

the macro, of course

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I'm a little confused. As far as my poor understanding of the ! function in macros, wouldn't the 1st cycle of the macro turn auto shot on, and then the 2nd cycle turn it off, and so on back and forth? It should give you something like auto-steady-steady-auto-steady-steady.

A second "!auto shot" should follow the steady shot on line 3 in a cast sequence, or possibly as a separate cast on a new line 4. This would also toggle off the auto shot thus allowing the command in line 1 to toggle it on again.

Time for me to go test the 2 I guess...


(edit) Ok, my bad. Since this is being spammed, it should be constantly toggling auto on and off, and firing steady whenever possible.

Last edited by Teldra : 01/20/08 at 11:34 AM.
#2654SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Thayer
Originally Posted by Teldra View Post
I'm a little confused. As far as my poor understanding of the ! function in macros, wouldn't the 1st cycle of the macro turn auto shot on, and then the 2nd cycle turn it off, and so on back and forth? It should give you something like auto-steady-steady-auto-steady-steady.

A second "!auto shot" should follow the steady shot on line 3 in a cast sequence, or possibly as a separate cast on a new line 4. This would also toggle off the auto shot thus allowing the command in line 1 to toggle it on again.

Time for me to go test the 2 I guess...


(edit) Ok, my bad. Since this is being spammed, it should be constantly toggling auto on and off, and firing steady whenever possible.
the ! in front of autoshot keeps it from toggling i believe

also see if you can use the macro to duplicate a 1:1 ratio, to see if you can duplicate it.
#2655SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2argent
Hi everybody,

did some testing on Dr. Boom.
I wanted to test the difference between the two macros i have seen here

1. macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=target] Lightning Breath(Rank 6)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

2. macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [target=target] Lightning Breath(Rank 6)
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


I have used AotV and went through my manabar 5 times with each macro.
Charscreen critrate: 30.61%
I am using WSR und 15% ammo pouch.
No proc trinkets and no trinkets used.
Results were recorded with SWStats


1. macro:
overall damage done: 424109 (100%) (recorded critrate: 31.8%, avrg dmg per manabar: 84821.8)
Steady Shot damage done: 259748 (61.2%) (recorded critrate: 32.8%, 381 shots fired, avrg dmg: 681.8, max dmg: 1223)
Auto Shot damage done: 164361 (38.8%) (recorded critrate: 30.3%, 264 shots fired, avrg dmg: 622.6, max dmg: 1148)
DPS: 699.4

2. macro:
overall damage done: 535362 (100%) (recorded critrate: 30.9%, avrg dmg per manabar: 107072.4)
Steady Shot damage done: 277470 (51.8%) (recorded critrate: 31.2%, 413 shots fired, avrg dmg: 671.8, max dmg: 1220)
Auto Shot damage done: 257892 (48.2%) (recorded critrate: 30.5%, 413 shots fired, avrg dmg: 624.4, max dmg: 1148)
DPS: 665.3


Lightning breath was not casted during the test.
With the first macro I experienced the rotation to be AS-SS-AS-SS-SS-AS-SS-AS-SS-SS.
I dont know why after one SS the AS came and in the next step two SS were fired before AS came through.
(I hope I did not make any mistakes here, because english is not my native language)
#2656SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Castia
Originally Posted by argent View Post
2. macro:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [target=target] Lightning Breath(Rank 6)
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
I've noticed the same thing on my hunter, in testing and in practice. Its just annoying your macro will stop if you switch targets and your pet ever lacks focus to Lightning Breath right away.
#2657SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kaladian
Yes i also see an increase of about 100 dps with the 3:2 macro. I cant wait till i get 4 piece T6 bonus ./drool. I use the old macro for trash and 3:2 for boss fights, with a SP it is a joke but without one i'm chugging pots like mad. Also my latency is down to 60-71 were it was 200-400 for the last month or so in BT/MH.
#2658SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2fit
Does a new macro have impact on the best weapon speed? Maybe now stronger bows are better than WSR? Sheet can't help in simulation I think - maybe someone do tests? (I don't have strong bow to make it)
#2659SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Thayer
Originally Posted by fit View Post
Does a new macro have impact on the best weapon speed? Maybe now stronger bows are better than WSR? Sheet can't help in simulation I think - maybe someone do tests? (I don't have strong bow to make it)
i had some different speed bows all at 64 to 66 dps, but i cleared em out to make bank room. im going to go grab some similar bows with the same approx dps but different weapon speeds and test it out soon
#2660SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2binky
I placed LB back on auto-cast and have not seen any issues regarding repositioning. Do we still need to put this ability in our macros?
#2661SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Thayer
Originally Posted by binky View Post
I placed LB back on auto-cast and have not seen any issues regarding repositioning. Do we still need to put this ability in our macros?
i have all damage abilites on pet bar on autocast, as i dont see the point of binding them to the macro. They work fine on thier own.
#2662SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by binky View Post
I placed LB back on auto-cast and have not seen any issues regarding repositioning. Do we still need to put this ability in our macros?
As of last week, which was the last time I tested having LB on auto-cast, I noted numerous occasions where the serpent would back away from the target to try to cast.

Originally Posted by Castia View Post
I've noticed the same thing on my hunter, in testing and in practice. Its just annoying your macro will stop if you switch targets and your pet ever lacks focus to Lightning Breath right away.
Is the macro you're using exactly the same as the one posted?

If so, I'd recommend changing that line to either exclude [target=target] (which really isn't needed since it will cast LB on it's current target anyway, unless your target and your pet's target are different and you want it to cast LB on your target) or change it to [target=pettarget,exists] and move it to the end of the macro. Having it as the last line in the macro I have never had any issues with specials being delayed/macro freezing due to LB not being able to be cast.
#2663SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Koroshiya
Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
As of last week, which was the last time I tested having LB on auto-cast, I noted numerous occasions where the serpent would back away from the target to try to cast.



Is the macro you're using exactly the same as the one posted?

If so, I'd recommend changing that line to either exclude [target=target] (which really isn't needed since it will cast LB on it's current target anyway, unless your target and your pet's target are different and you want it to cast LB on your target) or change it to [target=pettarget,exists] and move it to the end of the macro. Having it as the last line in the macro I have never had any issues with specials being delayed/macro freezing due to LB not being able to be cast.
From everything I have gathered I have set my macros as such.

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Hopefully this is correct and we can put this issue to rest. If it's not please post actual macros rather then posting what changes need to be made.
#2664SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Belzi.ET
/castsequence reset=target/2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
Koroshiya, can you please explain what this reset=target/2 does?
I've seen various reset-conditions, but this one is new to me.

The rest of your two macros is self-explaining (at least, for me).
#2665SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Koroshiya
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
/castsequence reset=target/2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
Koroshiya, can you please explain what this reset=target/2 does?
I've seen various reset-conditions, but this one is new to me.

The rest of your two macros is self-explaining (at least, for me).
This tells the cast sequence to reset on either of two conditions.

If you switch targets OR if 2 seconds elapse. This helps get your rotation correct on a new target right off the bat.

Last edited by Koroshiya : 01/21/08 at 1:23 PM. Reason: Typos
#2666SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2argent
Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
If so, I'd recommend changing that line to either exclude [target=target] (which really isn't needed since it will cast LB on it's current target anyway, unless your target and your pet's target are different and you want it to cast LB on your target) or change it to [target=pettarget,exists] and move it to the end of the macro. Having it as the last line in the macro I have never had any issues with specials being delayed/macro freezing due to LB not being able to be cast.

I have put it in the macro in this way for the occasions where I want to pull my pet of the mob for some healing (like Voidreaver). This way it is out of AOE range and will still deal LB (which is better than nothing).
#2667SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Female Tauren
So the 2:3 rotation is basically the 1:1.5 rotation but with only steady shots? How does MS/AS fit into this new rotation?
I was also wonder if this rotation is manageable with manual weaving instead of using the macro, though it seems very timing dependent.
#2668SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Intermission
Originally Posted by Koroshiya View Post
This tells the cast sequence to reset on either of two conditions.

If you switch targets OR if 2 seconds elapse. This helps get your rotation correct on a new target right off the bat.
I think the reset=target is a pretty bad idea.

Often people change targets while fighting. eg: Hydros, Akama, Illidan... and of course most of the raid, trash.

I'll use Illidan flame elementals as an example. While I'm dpsing one, I often change to the other to share my threat around a little bit, especially if FD's resist. If I was using my macro on the first Elemental, and targeted the other one, I would like my shot rotation to continue perfectly as if I never changed targets. If I changed targets as the Autoshot went off, Autoshot would hit Elemental A, and the followup Steady would hit Elemental B, along with the next Auto which fires right after the Steady, and the cycle continues.
Shot cycle was: Auto(A) -> Steady(A) -> Auto(A) -> Steady(B) -> Auto(B) -> etc.

Wouldnt the "target=reset" mean that when I change target while casting that Autoshot, the macro would reset back to the first skill (Autoshot) and therefore would do this: Autoshot was cast on Elemental A as target was changing. Macro reset back to Auto. The macro lets Autoshot fire on Elemental B, then Steady.
Shot cycle was: Auto(A) -> Steady(A) -> Auto(A) -> Auto(B) -> etc.

Missed out on a steady shot.

Thats why I always took the reset=target out of my macros. Maybe I don't understand exactly how that syntax behaves though.
#2669SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thayer
Originally Posted by Female Tauren View Post
So the 2:3 rotation is basically the 1:1.5 rotation but with only steady shots? How does MS/AS fit into this new rotation?
I was also wonder if this rotation is manageable with manual weaving instead of using the macro, though it seems very timing dependent.
this is a 3:2 ratio of steady shot to auto shot, while the 1:1.5 refers to the ration of auto shot to all other specials, so it is not really the same rotation.

this is just a steady / auto rotation, as it basically spams steadyshot. There is no gap of inaction while waiting for autoshot to go off in which to weave in AS / MS. Since this macro can be used to "time" into a 1:1 rotation though, i believe it can be used to bring in arcane or multi whenever the cooldown is up pretty much, i will test that as well.


im testing right now to see if this is weapon speed independent, as the way the macro functions now, it doesnt take any timing manually. The main benefit of the macro is to hit kill command it seems, and remove error messages in text.
#2670SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Thayer
weapon speed test / new macro

I tested two weapons of similar DPS, but varying Speed, while using the new macro as stated in my previous post.

I used the same quiver speed (15 percent) and the same ammo (32 DPS) for both weapons. I had aspect of the viper on and as i reached oom, i FDed to end combat and make sure that i was never counting time while oom in the DPS observation. I had no proc trinkets to reduce the amount of chance at play in this test.

I ended up using exactly 1000 rounds or ammo on both test sequences. The Damage meter used was Recount.



Weapon 1

Lohn'goron 114 - 213 Damage 2.6 base speed (1.82 modified) 62.9 DPS
Bow

Paperdoll: DPS - 319.2 Crit - 28.66


Weapon 2

Adamantite 126 - 234 Damage 3.0 base speed (2.10 modified) 60.0 DPS
Rifle

Paperdoll: DPS - 314.0 Crit 28.62


* Due to slight difference in weapon stats, we can assume an approximate 10 Overall DPS difference between the two weapons, in favor of the Bow (5.2 dps, modified for 3:2 ratio)


I also plugged these two weapons into Cheeky's spreadsheet, with current gear and current BM spec.
It returned a 38.87 dps difference in favor of the bow. this is primarily because of the speed, as is the currnet conventional knowledge.



Test results (over 1000 shots)

Lohn'goron Time: 916.90 seconds Damage: 561,755 DPS: 612.7 Crit: 26.5 Block: 4.0%

Ratio: 60.5 - 39.5

Adamantite Time: 998.22 seconds Damage: 584,465 DPS: 585.5 Crit: 26.4 Block: 2.9%

Ratio: 61.0 - 39.0


net difference : 27.2 DPS in favor of the bow




How much of this difference do i account to weapon speed, and how much to the difference between the two weapons?

If i adjust for the difference in weapon (approx. 10 DPS), the 1.1 percent block difference (approx. 6 DPS), we still end up with a 11.2 DPS difference. Is this simply human error?

Considering the spreadsheet gives us a more drastic 38.87 dps difference, it seems this new macro may not be as weapon speed dependent, but is still affected by it. The thing i find the most interesting s that the ratio of steady shots to auto shots was virtually the same regardless of weapon speed. This is the second test i ran today, as my first one got cut short due to raiding schedule. the previous test seemed to point to similar results, but not quite as drastic a gap.

It should be noted that Dr. Boom test are not fully accurate and are subject to error and mathematical variance. Even the test sample of 1000 hits was showing fluctuations of 20 to 30 DPS midway through and up until a 8 dps variation in last 200 hits (due to crit rate fluctuations and normalization of damage averages).

Needless to say, i feel more testing needs to be done.

Last edited by Thayer : 01/23/08 at 3:30 AM.
#2671SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Omegatron
Originally Posted by Koroshiya View Post
From everything I have gathered I have set my macros as such.

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Hopefully this is correct and we can put this issue to rest. If it's not please post actual macros rather then posting what changes need to be made.
So for a simpler version it would be...

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

And as Intermissions said... I think the reset=target is a pretty bad idea.

change it to /castsequence reset=3

Last edited by Omegatron : 01/23/08 at 11:35 AM.
#2672SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Thayer View Post
Test results (over 1000 shots)

Lohn'goron Time: 916.90 seconds Damage: 561,755 DPS: 612.7 Crit: 26.5 Block: 4.0%

Ratio: 60.5 - 39.5

Adamantite Time: 998.22 seconds Damage: 584,465 DPS: 585.5 Crit: 26.4 Block: 2.9%

Ratio: 61.0 - 39.0


net difference : 27.2 DPS in favor of the bow




How much of this difference do i account to weapon speed, and how much to the difference between the two weapons?

If i adjust for the difference in weapon (approx. 10 DPS), the 1.1 percent block difference (approx. 6 DPS), we still end up with a 11.2 DPS difference. Is this simply human error?

Considering the spreadsheet gives us a more drastic 38.87 dps difference, it seems this new macro may not be as weapon speed dependent, but is still affected by it. The thing i find the most interesting s that the ratio of steady shots to auto shots was virtually the same regardless of weapon speed. This is the second test i ran today, as my first one got cut short due to raiding schedule. the previous test seemed to point to similar results, but not quite as drastic a gap.

It should be noted that Dr. Boom test are not fully accurate and are subject to error and mathematical variance. Even the test sample of 1000 hits was showing fluctuations of 20 to 30 DPS midway through and up until a 8 dps variation in last 200 hits (due to crit rate fluctuations and normalization of damage averages).

Needless to say, i feel more testing needs to be done.
A couple of questions:
1 - Why do you account for 10 DPS difference between the weapons in your conversions, isn't it 2.9?
2 - Wouldn't the differences in block mean that the bow was under-represented in its DPS?
3 - In the spreadsheet, did you turn off Hunter's Mark? And also not use it in your tests? The faster weapon will see more benefit as it ramps it up quicker.
4 - It's possible to correct for crit rate imbalance by just re-figuring the numbers by turning all crits back into normal hits (divide damage by 2.3 or 2.33 as necessary.) You could also add a -crit rating modifier to the spreadsheet to eliminate them there as well.
5 - What Armor value did you give Boom in the spreadsheet? That would effect the difference it says between the weapons.

Based on those questions, the answers may yield that there is the same difference in weapon speed now as there was last month. This is a great test, but I think we need to make sure we handle the data properly.
#2673SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thayer
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
A couple of questions:
1 - Why do you account for 10 DPS difference between the weapons in your conversions, isn't it 2.9?
2 - Wouldn't the differences in block mean that the bow was under-represented in its DPS?
3 - In the spreadsheet, did you turn off Hunter's Mark? And also not use it in your tests? The faster weapon will see more benefit as it ramps it up quicker.
4 - It's possible to correct for crit rate imbalance by just re-figuring the numbers by turning all crits back into normal hits (divide damage by 2.3 or 2.33 as necessary.) You could also add a -crit rating modifier to the spreadsheet to eliminate them there as well.
5 - What Armor value did you give Boom in the spreadsheet? That would effect the difference it says between the weapons.

Based on those questions, the answers may yield that there is the same difference in weapon speed now as there was last month. This is a great test, but I think we need to make sure we handle the data properly.

1- paperdoll dps difference of 5.2, after modifications, x 2 to account for effect on auto shot and steady shot. This is an approximation to try to find the difference between the two weapons independent of bow speed.

2- correct, my mistake, so bow actually gains 6, not loses 6.

3- no hunter's mark on test, all buffs and debuffs turned off on spreadsheet.

4 - the difference in crits was 0.1 on test so i didnt feel it was neccessary to adjust for it since the test rates were so close to the paperdoll change

5 - standard armor value, as is default for level 73. should probably change that to a lower setting.

But as it looks anyway, it seems this macro is weapon speed dependent, especially since it took about 80 seconds longer to finish the test through 1000 rounds with the slower weapon, but the ratio of steady shots was basically the same, so it seems the steady shot is delayed according the weapon speed.

Cheeky can you link back to the previous test you have mentioned?
#2674SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Thayer View Post
1- paperdoll dps difference of 5.2, after modifications, x 2 to account for effect on auto shot and steady shot. This is an approximation to try to find the difference between the two weapons independent of bow speed.

2- correct, my mistake, so bow actually gains 6, not loses 6.

3- no hunter's mark on test, all buffs and debuffs turned off on spreadsheet.

4 - the difference in crits was 0.1 on test so i didnt feel it was neccessary to adjust for it since the test rates were so close to the paperdoll change

5 - standard armor value, as is default for level 73. should probably change that to a lower setting.

But as it looks anyway, it seems this macro is weapon speed dependent, especially since it took about 80 seconds longer to finish the test through 1000 rounds with the slower weapon, but the ratio of steady shots was basically the same, so it seems the steady shot is delayed according the weapon speed.

Cheeky can you link back to the previous test you have mentioned?
1 - Whoops, I completely forgot Steady Shot. I'm an idiot.

3 - Did you set the rank for Hunter's Mark to 0 in the spreadsheet?

4 - You're right, if they are the same they are immaterial.

I'm working on a theory for exactly why people are seeing the behavior they are seeing with this new macro, and weapon speed is going to play into it. As does latency (to a degree) and how fast you can spam it. I'm running my ideas by Lactose and then I'll present them here once he's poked all the holes in them.

What previous test? When I referenced last month, I meant the established BM Hunter preference for faster weapons.
#2675SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kaganar
With my latency, either spamming the macro posted earlier or trying to manually weave shots, I'm getting the same DPS and the same mana usage. I'll try later on Dr. Boom so I have numbers to back this up.
#2676SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thayer
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
So for a simpler version it would be...

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

And as Intermissions said... I think the reset=target is a pretty bad idea.

change it to /castsequence reset=2

use the first macro for both effects.

spam the button for Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS

triple tap (to set off KC) and "time" into a 1:1 ratio for Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS

steady shot will only go off when you hit the button, so if you delay hitting until the autoshot has gone off, triple tap to activate steady and KC< and wait till after autoshot fires to triple tap again, you will get a 1:1 ratio using the same macro.
#2677SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Thayer
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
1 - Whoops, I completely forgot Steady Shot. I'm an idiot.

3 - Did you set the rank for Hunter's Mark to 0 in the spreadsheet?

4 - You're right, if they are the same they are immaterial.

I'm working on a theory for exactly why people are seeing the behavior they are seeing with this new macro, and weapon speed is going to play into it. As does latency (to a degree) and how fast you can spam it. I'm running my ideas by Lactose and then I'll present them here once he's poked all the holes in them.

What previous test? When I referenced last month, I meant the established BM Hunter preference for faster weapons.
1 - yea we all do silly things sometimes, like recently when i saw rank 1 mend pet was 15 percent and flipped out thinking rank 2 was only 30 percent.....i haven't specced it in a while, lol

3 - yes, hunters mark was set to "no". I am usually using the spreadsheet to compare gear on its own, so i have all buffs turned off. i did have sunder armor up, so when i turned it off, it closed the difference to 30. 7 DPS, or almost the same as the test. so far it seems, sadly, we are still weapon speed dependent.


what i have observed is that i will fire a steady, followed by a slightly delayed auto, then a steady and auto at almost the same time, then a steady auto on top of each other again, then a steady by itself, then back to the beginning.

it seems to me that if it does not fire the autoshot because steady shot is being cast, it will "save" the auto to fire with the steady shot, but it will still start the timer on the next autoshot, firing it at the next available time. It seems that the hidden cast time on autoshot is not effecting the gap anymore, since i fire two arrows at the same time (to a point where the graphic is side by side).

Here is an attempt to illustrate, roughly, the alignment i see if auto is 2 seconds, and steady is 1.5 seconds

= start cast (1/4 second)

- cast time intervals (1/4 second)

+ end cast / fire (1/4 second)


[top]----+


----+=----+=----+=----+=----+=----+=----+=----+ 9 steady shots

[top]------+


------+=------+=------+=------+=------+=------+ 6 auto shots


so it goes:

steady, auto, steady, auto, steady, steady + auto, steady + auto, steady, auto, steady, auto, steady, steady + auto

The problem i see with this is that a faster weapon speed should bring this to a tighter ratio, perhaps a 5:4.

when i use rapid fire, or my AOTH procs, i hit a 1:1 ratio during this time.

This would suggest weapon speed would not effect overall damage, but my test showed almost the same ratio for both speeds. Would this be contributed to latency and reaction time, or is it a case of slight push back, as when the two shots overlap, preventing the slower weapon from breaking the ratio? (don't me me break out the plastic knife to spam my button....good ole nintendo days!)

i will point out that since the new patch i am running 80 - 120 ms latency, which is very nice indeed, so i have minimal latency interference. Also, from what i understand, since the switched to server side action queueing, if you have a cast in progress, and you initiate another cast, it will "queue" up the action and initiate it immediately after the first action has finished. This seems to reduce the effect of latency on cast sequencing and is especially effective for macros, which are constantly queueing up actions. Casters have seem an increase to their DPS because of this allowing them to effectively chain cast with no gaps.

Last edited by Thayer : 01/23/08 at 3:26 PM.
#2678SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Sewn
Hi guys,

I am not new to this forums, but this is my first post and I am playing my hunter since WoW start in Europe.

I tried the mentioned macro from Omegatron post today on Teron Gorefiend, and achieved 1789 dps(recount data) with auto steady ratio 60:40 ,being first in dmg.
Last week I was standing around 1570 with same gear available(and same group) but I used the old one macro. I noticed maybe not so clear rotation in my combat addon ( I was smashing like mad haha :o) , but I will get thru it once I have a little more time.

I frapsed this fight because of that, so once I am done with movie, I can post it. I am very satisfied and interested in what has been changed do achieve such results. I chug only 1 pot major mana for whole fight

Last edited by Sewn : 01/25/08 at 1:46 PM.
#2679SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ithikul
Erased this due to the fact I was responding to an old question. I apparently was not on the last page of the forum.
#2680SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sewn
Thayer,regarding your latest post..thats exactly what I noticed in my combat log:
steady, auto, steady, auto, steady, steady + auto, steady + auto, steady, auto, steady, auto, steady, steady + auto.

I am using a legionkiller and once I get the QS procced or DST it goes down to 1:1 rotation.
#2681SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Omegatron
Thanks for the reply.

I ended simplifying the macro a little more down to this.

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

The tool tip was in the way of my oRA2 tanks window >.<

Yes this works very well! Thank you!

Last edited by Omegatron : 01/24/08 at 5:53 AM.
#2682SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Perkypenguin
Originally Posted by Thayer View Post

Here is an attempt to illustrate, roughly, the alignment i see if auto is 2 seconds, and steady is 1.5 seconds

= start cast (1/4 second)

- cast time intervals (1/4 second)

+ end cast / fire (1/4 second)


[top]----+


----+=----+=----+=----+=----+=----+=----+=----+ 9 steady shots

[top]------+


------+=------+=------+=------+=------+=------+ 6 auto shots


so it goes:

steady, auto, steady, auto, steady, steady + auto, steady + auto, steady, auto, steady, auto, steady, steady + auto

The problem i see with this is that a faster weapon speed should bring this to a tighter ratio, perhaps a 5:4.

when i use rapid fire, or my AOTH procs, i hit a 1:1 ratio during this time.

This would suggest weapon speed would not effect overall damage, but my test showed almost the same ratio for both speeds. Would this be contributed to latency and reaction time, or is it a case of slight push back, as when the two shots overlap, preventing the slower weapon from breaking the ratio? (don't me me break out the plastic knife to spam my button....good ole nintendo days!)
Aethryl from Dalaran posted this data relating to how much your weapon speed affects the new macro and 3:2 rotation:
| ........ 1.59 ........ || ..... 38 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.61 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 35 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.64 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.67 ........ || ..... 49 ...... || .. 42 .. || ...1.17:1 ... |
| ........ 1.74 ........ || ..... 67 ...... || .. 59 .. || ...1.14:1 ... |
| ........ 1.79 ........ || ..... 40 ...... || .. 34 .. || ...1.18:1 ... |
| ........ 1.83 ........ || ..... 61 ...... || .. 47 .. || ...1.30:1 ... | ---> now closer to 3:2 than 1:1
| ........ 1.86 ........ || ..... 51 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.34:1 ... |
| ........ 1.88 ........ || ..... 31 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.30:1 ... |
| ........ 1.92 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.40:1 ... |
| ........ 1.96 ........ || ..... 26 ...... || .. 18 .. || ...1.44:1 ... |
| ........ 2.07 ........ || ..... 23 ...... || .. 16 .. || ...1.44:1 ... |
| ........ 2.11 ........ || ..... 39 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.56:1 ... |
| ........ 2.14 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 14 .. || ...1.71:1 ... | ---> now closer to 2:1 than 3:2
| ........ 2.17 ........ || ..... 43 ...... || .. 23 .. || ...1.87:1 ... |
This shows how weapon speeds affect the "new macro" by ranging from 2:1 all the way to 1:1. Obviously, the weapon speed is MUCH more important that the DPS of the bow (to an extent). For instance, last night when I ran some tests with another hunter, his Woflslayer was able perform equally to my S3 Longbow.

The more time you spend under haste procs, or the more haste you have (preferrably to get down to 1.8 or lower modified default) the bigger the gap between faster, less DPS weapons and slower, more DPS weapons become. It's scary that a 2.6 speed weapon can perform equally to a 3.0 speed weapon, despite it being 14 DPS less.
#2683SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3whitemanfromtown
Originally Posted by Perkypenguin View Post
It's scary that a 2.6 speed weapon can perform equally to a 3.0 speed weapon, despite it being 14 DPS less.
This has been the case for some time now. Many tests have shown Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle to be the "optimal" BM weapon due to the increased frequency of specials in a 1:1 rotation. Even with the endgame bows, it would take a bit of haste rating to get Bristleblitz Striker to the same theoretical dps as Wolfslayer.
#2684SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Perkypenguin
Originally Posted by whitemanfromtown View Post
This has been the case for some time now. Many tests have shown Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle to be the "optimal" BM weapon due to the increased frequency of specials in a 1:1 rotation. Even with the endgame bows, it would take a bit of haste rating to get Bristleblitz Striker to the same theoretical dps as Wolfslayer.
Let me clarify.

It's scary that a 2.6 speed weapon can perform equally to a 3.0 speed weapon, despite it being 14 DPS less, no matter what rotation you use.

Using a /castsequence 1:1, any monkey with a peanut up his nose can see that the Woflslayer and BBL would out-perform weapons like S3 and Blitz.

Using the /cast, 3:2, or clip rotation (whatever you want to call it), it definitely closes the HUGE gap from a 1:1.


And "increased frequency of specials" isn't the only reason Wolfslayer outperforms slower bows in a 1:1.
#2685SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grassidas
I tested the new macro on Dr.Boom with both WSR and Sunfury. The results seemed interesting enough to post:

Standard 41/20 BM, no haste equipment apart from the 15% quiver/ammo pouch.
I had AofH on during testing, Hunter's Mark on Dr.Boom and used Bestial Wrath and Rapid Shot once each mana bar.
Pet was a cat.I used cheap 32dps ammo and spammed the macro (high mana consumption ,high dps output).

(As a side note, my mana lasted aproximately 1m55sec so the use of Beastial Wrath will come pretty close to the actual use while raiding. Rapid Shot was used a bit more often - testing treated it as 2mins CD)

Wolflslayer Sniper Rifle

647714 dmg
fight duration 12m50sec
DPS 840.9

Autoshot dmg 44% of total (284994) - 33.8% Crit
Steadyshot dmg 56% of total (362720) -28.5% Crit

Total Mana spent: 46078

Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix

640393 dmg
fight duration 12m45sec
DPS 837.2

Autoshot dmg 42% of total (268965) - 29.2% Crit
Steadyshot dmg 58% of total (371427) -28.8% Crit

Total Mana spent: 46123

Pre-patch (/castsequence macro, 1:1 steady), WSR easily outdps'ed Sunfury and by a big margin, even though i do have latency issues (80-140ms)
(Bare in mind my hunter is a Tauren, i dont get any bonus Gun over Bow or vise versa)

After patch with the new macro i gained ~80dps.

Lets look at my test results. WSR still outperforms Sunfury, but alas, at such a small margin, it could be plain luck.
But speaking of luck, check out the crit chance on WSR and specifically on Autoshots. 33.8% crit is way over my 28.85 paper doll crit.

I then decided to take another test, and discard any combat stats that deviate from my paperdoll crit by more than 1%.
I also used Rapid Shot every 3mins of combat time, simulating "perfect" raid conditions. All other conditions remained as they were during the first test.

Unfortunately i seem to have misplaced the excel file with the test results, but i will post some results from memory.

Around 700k dmg for both WSR and Sunfury. Sunfury beats WSR by a margin of 27dps.(834dps vs 807dps if i recall correctly)

The gap - at least for me - of WSR over Sunfury is closed.

Shot Rotation was indeed affected by weapon speed and changed a lot during testing.
Combat log 1 - Sunfury
Steady-auto-steady-auto-steady-steady-auto...
Combat log 2 - Sunfury
Steady-auto-steady-steady-auto-steady-steady-auto-...

Sorry for the long post and the poor use of language.
#2686SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Thayer
i still get a 3:2 ratio, even with a sunfury hasted to 2.03.

in my previous test with a 1.86 weapon and a 2.10 weapon speed, i still got the same 3:2 ratio, so the previous table seems to be a bit inaccurate from what i have seen in practice. in a short sample (one mana bar) there will be variations in behavior and in ratio, but you need approx. 500,000 damage or so to start getting a more streamlined test sample.

i got the same behavior in shots with both weapons, but less dps on the slower weapon. 2.10 is the slowest i can get with spec and such.

i think once you pass a certain threshold it slips into the ineffecient, autoshot delaying 2:1 ratio but hasting up from a 3:2 to a 1:1 has no negative effect.

It does seem that the gap of dps difference between 3.0 weapons and 2.7 weapons is a bit smaller then it was before, but is still significant nonetheless.

if i had a wolfslayer's, i would test it but alas, the damned thing never drops for me! Ive had every other piece of gear out fo that damned place. (it's not cursing, cause it IS infested with demons!)

The weapons i tested were of 25 percent less dps then sunfury, etc. so there may be a difference at the higher rank of weapons, where the weapon damage range is not as vast, proportionally. This would give less variation based on chance.

Last edited by Thayer : 01/24/08 at 11:31 AM.
#2687SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dibbler
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
Thanks for the reply.

I ended simplifying the macro a little more down to this.

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

The tool tip was in the way of my oRA2 tanks window >.<

Yes this works very well! Thank you!


How do I get a random Arcane shot into this sequence. Every time I try to modify the macro I end up killing it.
#2688SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
cheetara
I am also having trouble not killing the macro when I add in my rapid fire/bestialwrath/bloodlust brooch. I want to have two macros, the simple one, and then right next to it the same macro, but with all that stuff included to spam so that they go off when they are ready.

Basically, I would use the first macro in the very beginning of the fight before the tank has sufficient aggro, and then for the remainder of the fight I want to spam the other one so that if any of the cooldowns are up on the three other things it would just use them.

Ugh, I know I am probably as clear as mud here, but does my general point at least make sense?

Last edited by cheetara : 01/24/08 at 6:51 PM.
#2689SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 topojijo
Edited again

I'm even more confused now than before, first I see that shots are unlinked and virtually no clipping, then I see people say it's fixed, then it only works with the macro. So I just tried that macro on Dr. Boom and it definitely clips the autos, it does do a steady auto steady steady however this decreases my dps over the steady auto repeat by about 50dps on avg.

I'm I using the new macro wrong? Are you just supposed to spam it or still time it?

Last edited by topojijo : 01/24/08 at 7:02 PM.
#2690SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dafeaz
Let me see if I'm reading this right. I'm currently packing a WSR with no haste other than IAotH and the ammo pouch. Average latency is around 150ms, 1:1 shot rotation.

Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix would be an upgrade for me over the Wolfslayer?

Or is it more of a personal preference thing?
#2691SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teldra
Why is the (cast auto, cast steady) macro faster/more dps than the (castsequence auto, steady) macro? Is it because of latency and waiting for the server's return on the 1st spell in the castsquence before performing the 2nd spell? Something else?
#2692SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grassidas
Originally Posted by Teldra View Post
Why is the (cast auto, cast steady) macro faster/more dps than the (castsequence auto, steady) macro? Is it because of latency and waiting for the server's return on the 1st spell in the castsquence before performing the 2nd spell? Something else?
Allow me to reply with a very simple example: Try casting an aimed shot. As soon as the Global Cooldown finishes (aimed is still being cast) try casting Aspect of the Viper for example. As soon as the aimed shot finishes casting, you will "automaticaly" and with zero delay cast Aspect of the Viper.

Based on that result i speculate that, while you spam the macro, you queue up a steady shot cast. The server has received your "command" of casting the next steady shot during some phase of the macro, and proceeds with the execution as soon as the current action is resolved. But why doesn't the /castsequence macro queue actions and the "new" macro does?Maybe the mechanics of /castsequence A, B require the user's input (key press) "after" command A to execute command B.
A "/castsequence Aimed Shot, Aspect of the Viper" macro could not, in my case, provide the same zero-time cast of AotV right after Aimed shot.

I can see that if this is the case, then those who benefit the most are people with latency issues. That would explain my personal dps gain when using the new macro. I am still working on how this "command queuing" would affect shot rotations and whether my results of my Sunfury vs WSR test posted before could be proven theoretically or were they purely circumstantial.
#2693SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Blyx
Just recently I've become very interested in maxing out my DPS. Clearing BT/Hyjal in two nights has become a bit boring. Now after reading a lot in this thread, I now understand why the 3:2 rotation is better DPS. I will be giving the new macro a whirl the next raid I'm in. What I still don't get is why Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle is better DPS and Bristleblitz Striker. How does 0.3 bow speed make up the 15 dps difference? Maybe I missed an explanation somewhere earlier, but if someone could lay it out for me, that would be great.

To further the above question, would stacking some haste gear return the Bristleblitz to the #1 DPS spot? Thanks for any help.
#2694SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thayer
Originally Posted by topojijo View Post
Edited again

I'm even more confused now than before, first I see that shots are unlinked and virtually no clipping, then I see people say it's fixed, then it only works with the macro. So I just tried that macro on Dr. Boom and it definitely clips the autos, it does do a steady auto steady steady however this decreases my dps over the steady auto repeat by about 50dps on avg.

I'm I using the new macro wrong? Are you just supposed to spam it or still time it?
spam it
#2695SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Thayer
Originally Posted by Blyx View Post
Just recently I've become very interested in maxing out my DPS. Clearing BT/Hyjal in two nights has become a bit boring. Now after reading a lot in this thread, I now understand why the 3:2 rotation is better DPS. I will be giving the new macro a whirl the next raid I'm in. What I still don't get is why Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle is better DPS and Bristleblitz Striker. How does 0.3 bow speed make up the 15 dps difference? Maybe I missed an explanation somewhere earlier, but if someone could lay it out for me, that would be great.

To further the above question, would stacking some haste gear return the Bristleblitz to the #1 DPS spot? Thanks for any help.
well you could stack about 180 haste to get the same speed, but you would probably nerf other stats to achieves this and have a negative gain.

Currently there is a new macro floating around, and we are all trying to determine how much weapon speeds effects this.

The case before was that auto shot speed limited steady shot speed in the 1:1 ratio.

i.e. if you have a weapon that is 1.8 speed modified, and a weapon that is 2.1 speed modified, the 1.8 modified is better because it increases the frequency of the steady shots you are firing, and this offsets the gains in DPS per hit.

a 0.3 second difference knocked off a 2.1 speed weapon is about a 13 percent steady shot frequency increase. This means that even if you gain 25 DPS on the slower bow, you actually lose 13 percent of your steady shot dps because you fire steady shots less often.

Last edited by Thayer : 01/25/08 at 2:29 AM.
#2696SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thayer
Originally Posted by Dafeaz View Post
Let me see if I'm reading this right. I'm currently packing a WSR with no haste other than IAotH and the ammo pouch. Average latency is around 150ms, 1:1 shot rotation.

Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix would be an upgrade for me over the Wolfslayer?

Or is it more of a personal preference thing?
with a 1:1 shot rotation, wolfslayer's is much much better.

read the post above for some clarification.
#2697SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3argent
Originally Posted by Grassidas View Post
Wolflslayer Sniper Rifle

647714 dmg
fight duration 12m50sec
DPS 840.9

Autoshot dmg 44% of total (284994) - 33.8% Crit
Steadyshot dmg 56% of total (362720) -28.5% Crit

Total Mana spent: 46078

Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix

640393 dmg
fight duration 12m45sec
DPS 837.2

Autoshot dmg 42% of total (268965) - 29.2% Crit
Steadyshot dmg 58% of total (371427) -28.8% Crit

Total Mana spent: 46123
If you adjust the critrates (assumimg you would have had exactly the same critrates) you get a dps increase in favor of the bow.
Increasing the Auto Shot critrate for Sunfury by 3,6% leads to 280623 dmg done.
Increasing the Steady Shot critrate for WSR by 0,3% leads to 363752 dmg done.
NEW DPS
WSR: 842,5 DPS
Sunfury: 852,6 DPS


So assuming you had the same ammount of luck in each test you would have had an increased DPS rate in favor of Sunfury.
In my opinion test with no comparable critrates dont tell you the truth.
#2698SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ailuridae
Is this theory as true for MM and Survival as it is for BM (Sorry for asking this in BM theorycraft)? We would talk about an attack speed of 2.3 for WSR and of 2.5 for Sunfury.
#2699SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thorongil
Originally Posted by Ailuridae View Post
Is this theory as true for MM and Survival as it is for BM (Sorry for asking this in BM theorycraft)? We would talk about an attack speed of 2.3 for WSR and of 2.5 for Sunfury.
There is a reason why there are different threads for the different speccs. MM and SV use totally different shot-rotations and you will find them and the reasons why there is so much difference in the specific threads.

To answer your question shortly: No, it is not true for the other speccs. If you play MM or SV you won´t find much help concernig your shot rotation and best attackspeed in this thread.
#2700SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dirty Dave
Hunter Shot Problem

Hey Guys,

I really have an odd problem and I have no clue what is wrong. A friend directed me to this site and from what I read you all have a very good understanding of the mechanics of the game.

(here are my stats)

Damage - 819-935 (444.9)
Speed 1.97
AP 1980
Hit 115
Crit Chance 29.51

My build is mainly comprised on haste gear (162 rating) and other stuff from TK, hyjal, and black temple. I also use the season 3 vengeful longbow.

So to my problem, I am not sure what is going on but I start off a boss with my misdirect, tank gains threat etc. I ride the tank for example the tank will be at around 30K on omen then I am around 28k on omen so i proceed to feign death. No message comes up saying resisted or anything and on omen my threat is wiped. So then i proceed to pop bestial wrath with rapid fire, trinkets etc. So meanwhile the tank is around 40k threat or so I rapidly gain up to 20-25k threat in about 10-12 second and the boss proceeds to aggro me (even though other members are above me as well and quite close to the tank in threat) then i die (since i just used feign death) and i die and look like a noob lol.

All in all I dont know what is causing this issue. Its not like it has happened only once but has happened on several events including black temple, hyjal and za. I was wondering if anyone could give me some insight on something I can do to improve my situation. Im not sure if im shooting so fast that omen is not registering shots but then fiegn death would wipe it correct? Any input at all will help me greatly because I am out of ideas of which it could be.

Thanks in advance all
#2701SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Belzi.ET
Dirty Dave, there have been some rumors about feign death.
Several users posted problems with FD and after a few shots gaining aggro.

After all, there seems to be kind of a hidden casting time for feign death. Just watch your full FD-animation and try if this solves your problem.
#2702SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grassidas
Originally Posted by argent View Post
If you adjust the critrates (assumimg you would have had exactly the same critrates) you get a dps increase in favor of the bow.
Increasing the Auto Shot critrate for Sunfury by 3,6% leads to 280623 dmg done.
Increasing the Steady Shot critrate for WSR by 0,3% leads to 363752 dmg done.
NEW DPS
WSR: 842,5 DPS
Sunfury: 852,6 DPS


So assuming you had the same ammount of luck in each test you would have had an increased DPS rate in favor of Sunfury.
In my opinion test with no comparable critrates dont tell you the truth.
Thats exactly why i run the second test and discarded all lucky (31%+ Crit Rate) or unlucky (28%- Crit Rate) runs. It seamed to me more accurate than adjusting my data derived from the first test.

Dafeaz, if you stick to 1:1 Rotation (Manual weave, Old macro, New macro *possibly* by timing and not spamming the macro) then WSR would outdps Sunfury.

But if you use the new one, then maybe you'll find yourself in my position, where Sunfury > WSR. (Seeing that we share the same conditions: latency, no haste equipment)
#2703SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3argent
Originally Posted by Grassidas View Post
Thats exactly why i run the second test and discarded all lucky (31%+ Crit Rate) or unlucky (28%- Crit Rate) runs. It seamed to me more accurate than adjusting my data derived from the first test.
oops
Seems that I did not read the post to the thoroughly.
Sorry for that.
#2704SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Omegatron
Dirty Dave I have found a issue with Omen as well. My FD resist do not show up in it as they should. Its not your gear, spec or whatever. Omen after the last patch is not working correctly for hunters. I do not have a answer to this. But, I just hope a new Omen comes out soon. It seems to screw up more on fights with multiple mobs up. Myself and another hunter in my guild was having the same FD issue. Omen sometimes registers it, sometimes not. I think the mod needs updated.
#2705SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dafeaz
So with a 1:1 rotation (AKA mana efficient), WSR is better. But with a 2:3 rotation (More DPS), Sunfury Bow is better.

I think I get it. More reason to push my guild to farm Prince more often .

Edit: Omegatron, stop having such a distracting avatar.
#2706SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teldra
I too have found that the old 1:1 rotation shows the WSR to be better than Sunfury, and the new macro firing 2:3 showing the bow to be better. I also have no haste gear and 200-250 latency. I didn't do an in depth analysis, just shot Dr. Boom for 3 mana bars on each, but was really surprised at how much more dps I was getting with the bow and new macro.
#2707SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thayer
regarding FD

i had the same problem on High Astromancer Capernian.

I would MD, then FD. get up pop off one auto shot (1K threat to the warlocks 8k - 10K threat) and i would get back aggro and the warlock would get conflagged, killing a few people i the process.

I finally just had to not DPS High astromancer at all to keep this from happening.

I also have times at which i can not use FD while spamming the mac ro, and had to wait a good 5 seconds before it went off...if i didnt die first.

I think this had to do with action queing and it waiting to finish the previous action before triggering the FD.
#2708SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Path
Sorry for the long first post, but I've done some analysis, and decided to throw it out there for you guys to look at.

I ran some tests, and I believe I understand what is happening with the new macro. I would be interested to see if anyone can confirm/deny my results.
Tests run using 2.9s sunfury; BM spec, no AOTH, to proc trinkets, no haste, 15% quiver

Basically, my issue is that going auto-steady-steady-auto-steady-auto should not work. Because of the GCD, it should create a situation such that the time between autos when casting two steadies will be at best 3.1s

0s auto
1.1s steady
1.5s GCD finishes
2.6s steady
3.1 auto

Now, this is not particularly mana efficient, and is really no better than a straight 1:1 rotation. Additionally, it doesn't explain why we get a 1:1.5 rotation instead of a 1:2.

Here is what seems to be happening based on my tests:

0s auto
1.1s steady
2.2s steady
2.7s auto

The only way the 2nd steady hits at 2.2s is if the GCD for the 1st steady begins at the start of the auto cast. If true, this is what we get:

-.5s GCD starts, auto starts
0s auto
1.0s GCD finishes
1.1s steady
2.2s steady
2.6s GCD finishes, GCD starts for next steady
2.7s auto
3.8s steady
4.1s GCD finishes
Either: 5.2 steady
4.8 auto (with the auto cast starting at 4.3s and starting the GCD for the next steady)

As you can see, the 2nd time through, the GCD is pushed back and finishes after the steadyshot. If another steady starts, we will end up with 3s between the autoshots, and an inefficient rotation. If the auto starts before we 'queue up' the next steady, then we get the 2.1s we normally get in a 1:1 rotation, and we are back on track with the GCD starting at the beginning of the autoshot cast. We end up with a nice 1:1.5 rotation looking like this:

0.0s auto
1.1s steady
2.2s steady
2.7s auto
3.8s steady
4.8s auto

5 shots in 4.8s (1.042 shots/sec), compared to a 1:1 rotation giving 4 shots in 4.2s (.952 shots/sec). That is nearly a 10% improvement in shot output.

Based on the tests I ran, the steady shot won't start to cast if an autoshot is mid cast. If it did, we would just get chain steady shots (and obviously we don't, other evidence is that the macro moves to an easy 1:1 rotation with RF procced). Now the interesting thing here is that you actually NEED some latency/slow reaction time to keep from falling into the inefficient 1:2 rotation. I noticed that a few times I fell into an a-s-s-a-s-s-a, and each time, the cast time between my subsequent autoshots was ~3.0s. To get a perfect 1:1.5 rotation with the new macro, you need a .2s latency/reaction time delay to cover up for the .2s between the GCD finishing and the start of the autoshot cast on the 1:1 portion of the rotation (when using a 2.9s weapon).

Now, if we take it a tad further, and look at a 2.7s weapon we get:

0.0s auto
1.1s steady
2.2s steady
2.7s auto
3.8s steady
4.66s auto

5 shots in 4.66s (1.073 shots/sec), compared to a 1:1 rotation giving 4 shots in 3.92s (1.02 shots/sec). Only ~5% improvement in shot output, which would clearly explain how the sunfury makes up so much ground on the faster weapons.

Well, there it is.
#2709SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KlaDie
Hello,

after studying the official German Hunter Forum and also reading here, my Head is exploding because of all the Informations and News in the mechanics after the two last Patches. So I have several questions, thanks for all your strives in answering them:
ATM, as a BM, I have selfbuffed with Hawk 2400RAP at 29% Crit. With a MM and a Feral as Suppport, there are 1900DPS at Teron Gorefiend. I dont post this for any Compliments. I'm just afraid, I could do more dmg because of the new Mechanics.

- ATM I am using a macro like this:
#showtooltip Zuverlässiger Schuss (This is steady Shot)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Automatischer Schuss
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Fass! (This is Kill Command)
/cast Zuverlässiger Schuss
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

I realized, with this macro I make a little bit more damage than with my old macro and had about 65% Steady and 35% Auto. But I dont know why it isnt 50%/50%. Well, because of the 4 T6 Bonus, its ok to cast more steady, but I dont know why this happens?

- Without any Haste-Rating and a very slow bow with a speed of 3.0 - Is this macro (or a manuell auto-Steady [and Kill Command when ready]) even the best or is there theoretical enough time to cast arcane or Multi?

- I have a horrible Ping of 200ms, even with a good connection, how can this affect my damage?

- After reading this forum, I decide to use the following macro:
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

This is the "mose mana" "most dps" macro, Am I right?
Edit: well, isnt it the same macro I use atm, posted above?

Thanks for you all and for possible answers.
#2710SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Revith
Originally Posted by KlaDie View Post
Hello,

after studying the official German Hunter Forum and also reading here, my Head is exploding because of all the Informations and News in the mechanics after the two last Patches. So I have several questions, thanks for all your strives in answering them:
ATM, as a BM, I have selfbuffed with Hawk 2400RAP at 29% Crit. With a MM and a Feral as Suppport, there are 1900DPS at Teron Gorefiend. I dont post this for any Compliments. I'm just afraid, I could do more dmg because of the new Mechanics.

- ATM I am using a macro like this:
#showtooltip Zuverlässiger Schuss (This is steady Shot)
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Automatischer Schuss
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Fass! (This is Kill Command)
/cast Zuverlässiger Schuss
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

I realized, with this macro I make a little bit more damage than with my old macro and had about 65% Steady and 35% Auto. But I dont know why it isnt 50%/50%. Well, because of the 4 T6 Bonus, its ok to cast more steady, but I dont know why this happens?

- Without any Haste-Rating and a very slow bow with a speed of 3.0 - Is this macro (or a manuell auto-Steady [and Kill Command when ready]) even the best or is there theoretical enough time to cast arcane or Multi?

- I have a horrible Ping of 200ms, even with a good connection, how can this affect my damage?

- After reading this forum, I decide to use the following macro:
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

This is the "mose mana" "most dps" macro, Am I right?
Edit: well, isnt it the same macro I use atm, posted above?

Thanks for you all and for possible answers.
Yes, that is the same macro, with the unncessary errorframe and showtooltip commands removed. And it is the "most mana" and "most dps" macro posted above.

What I am wondering is if including arcane shot will help at all, and if so, how to include it? Maybe a /castrandom before the steady shot? I think this might be good on slower weapons (2.9, 3.0 with little to no haste) but I only have a Don Santos so am unable to do any testing until I get better raid drops.
#2711SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dirty Dave
Thanks guys for the replies. I'm going to test a few things tonight and see if its actually omen or something.
#2712SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zogeth
Another solution to the FD problem would be to download SCT (scrolling combat text) if you don't already have it, then enable combat flags. Just wait for it to tell you that you are out of comabt.
#2713SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dafeaz
I've been trying the new 3:2 macro...and is it supposed to be clipping autoshots?
#2714SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thayer
Originally Posted by Dafeaz View Post
I've been trying the new 3:2 macro...and is it supposed to be clipping autoshots?

it may look like its clipping auto shots, but it is actually not, read page 108 for the start of the overlap discussion

3:2 means you fire 3 steady shots for every 2 auto shots.
#2715SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seipher
Originally Posted by Zogeth View Post
Another solution to the FD problem would be to download SCT (scrolling combat text) if you don't already have it, then enable combat flags. Just wait for it to tell you that you are out of comabt.
FD no longer takes you OOC on boss fights.
#2716SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bluetang
After playing around with the "new" macro and the "old" macro I tried out making a small tweak to the macro and I got a slight increase in dps. My gear is mostly Kara and gladiator gear (i know it doesn't compare to most here), I was using the sunfury bow and this macro...

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/castsequence arcane shot, steady Shot, steady shot, steady shot, steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Here is my question. Why did this increase my dps over the "new" and "old" macros? I got ~20 dps more with this arcane shot macro over anything else I tried. Does this seem correct?

-B
#2717SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Koroshiya
Sorry I know this is tooting my own horn, but I like how my original post of Most Mana, Most DPS, and Less Mana, Less DPS is catching on... ;-P

Originally Posted by bluetang View Post
After playing around with the "new" macro and the "old" macro I tried out making a small tweak to the macro and I got a slight increase in dps. My gear is mostly Kara and gladiator gear (i know it doesn't compare to most here), I was using the sunfury bow and this macro...

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/castsequence arcane shot, steady Shot, steady shot, steady shot, steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Here is my question. Why did this increase my dps over the "new" and "old" macros? I got ~20 dps more with this arcane shot macro over anything else I tried. Does this seem correct?

-B
But to make this not just a useless post, I can only guess that the reason your DPS increased using the above macro is because of your latency, or because of your chosen shot rotation. Contrary to what most believe a 1:1 steady only rotation is not always the best rotation. Play around with Cheeky's spreadsheet and find a good shot rotation for you with your current gear and you'll get some ideas to try out. After you find a few optimal shot rotations make sure you check the Time to Mana Exhaustion field to make sure the rotation can hold you through the whole fight...
#2718SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Wunlastri
Originally Posted by Seipher View Post
FD no longer takes you OOC on boss fights.
I thought blizzard intended to make it hunters could drink again. I know they didn't want us changing clothes in boss fights and all, but still...
#2719SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Skora
Newbish question but not sure what to do at this point. Take in mind I was only recently (in last month or so) to take up my hunter as my main again since guild I am in lacks hunters.

Here is shot rotation I use (I got it from a hunter friend in another guild who always topped the charts with this macro from when i was guilded with him up to killing Vashj and first VR):

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3, Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()

You can also see the gear I have in armory link:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...hridge&n=Skora

Problem is that my DPS varies too much. Even when going side by side with another hunter in guild who has almost the exact same gear or very similar he pulls off anywhere btw 1000 to 1500 dps depending on if he is actually trying or not while I am doing the same rotation and all we did was spam the macro and I don't get anywhere close. Granted we both weave in Arcane shot ever few steadys and use BW as much as possible.

Granted none of this may seem good to many of you but guild I am in just got into MH and thus BT and downed first 3 bosses in MH. I should be doing alot better but not sure if its my rotation or how I weave in other shots or gear selection (although I haven't had much luck with several drops).

Any help on pointing me in right direction would be great. My normal dps spot in raid is around 7 to 10th and honestly it should be btw 3rd to 7th, several of our casters/melee dps are extremely skilled at what they do so depending on fight is rather I am ahead of them or not.
#2720SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nidhighe
Fixing one of my guild hunters

Hey guys, first off great thread going here. I don't have extensive hunter knowledge, and don't pretend that I do. I figured this was the best place to get ahold of the people who know what to do, so here goes.

My guild just xferred servers and we have quite a few new faces to raiding. Our BM hunter sucks for dps. By sucks, I mean barely staying ahead of the MT on boss fights. Gear isn't that big of an issue (she has the epic bow from heroic SV, as well as roughly 1/2 of her kara epics), we have her focusing on getting her hit rating up and maintaining a decent AP and crit. She's 41/20 BM specced, and I set her up with a basic 1:1 Auto / Steady rotation with Kill Command in the macro, but it doesn't seem to help much. I don't want to derail the thread, if anyone would be kind enough to PM me some helpful info, or just post it here, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your time.
#2721SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thorongil
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
I thought blizzard intended to make it hunters could drink again. I know they didn't want us changing clothes in boss fights and all, but still...
Just try to do it, it doesn´t work.
#2722SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fimotik
Originally Posted by KlaDie View Post

[EDIT - text deleted from quote]

- I have a horrible Ping of 200ms, even with a good connection, how can this affect my damage?

[EDIT - text deleted from quote]

Horrible ping of 200ms? Try being on an Oceanic server (Australia, New Zealand, Singapore etc) 350ms is bliss for us, 400-500 the normal raiding latency.... I'd happily swap you :-)
#2723SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Slaymode
Hey all, sorry for the off-topic/rather noobish question in the midst of all this theorycraft. I initially leveled a hunter at the beginning of TBC and stopped playing him after some basic raiding. I'm interested in picking it back up so I began with this thread. However, after 109 pages, finding specific information is a tough task. My question, while rather simple, is what is the current "best" pet for BM raiding, dps wise. I know initially it was wind serpent pre-nerf, then scorpid pre-nerf. The beginning pages of this thread mention cats/ravagers as the top while the end pages all mention LB during tests. Are wind-serpents the king again? Cheeky's spreadsheet shows me that they are, but if someone could confirm that/provide some reasoning i'd appreciate it.
#2724SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rend
Shot Weaving?

This fancy new Steady/Auto Macro seems to be pretty good stuff, at least für BM Hunters who use those two shot almosts exclusively. I was wondering if other specs can put it to good use too?

I have been MM/SV spec for a while, including 5/5 Imp. Arcane, which let me use a perfect 2:1 rotation (1 additional Arcane after every other Steady). Since the 2.3.2 patch I realize that it has become much more difficult to maintain this rotation flawlessly. In fact it now requires perfect timing, even with a 3.0 speed weapon, whereas there was quite some leeway even with a 2.9 before. I suppose this is related to the new !Autoshot-"Feature"?

What do you think is the way to go now for the unhasted builds, i.e. without Serpent's Swiftness? Pure Steady all the way or is it still possible to put shot weaving to good use?
#2725SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Path View Post
Sorry for the long first post, but I've done some analysis, and decided to throw it out there for you guys to look at.

I ran some tests, and I believe I understand what is happening with the new macro. I would be interested to see if anyone can confirm/deny my results.
Tests run using 2.9s sunfury; BM spec, no AOTH, to proc trinkets, no haste, 15% quiver

Basically, my issue is that going auto-steady-steady-auto-steady-auto should not work. Because of the GCD, it should create a situation such that the time between autos when casting two steadies will be at best 3.1s

0s auto
1.1s steady
1.5s GCD finishes
2.6s steady
3.1 auto

Now, this is not particularly mana efficient, and is really no better than a straight 1:1 rotation. Additionally, it doesn't explain why we get a 1:1.5 rotation instead of a 1:2.

Here is what seems to be happening based on my tests:

0s auto
1.1s steady
2.2s steady
2.7s auto

The only way the 2nd steady hits at 2.2s is if the GCD for the 1st steady begins at the start of the auto cast. If true, this is what we get:

-.5s GCD starts, auto starts
0s auto
1.0s GCD finishes
1.1s steady
2.2s steady
2.6s GCD finishes, GCD starts for next steady
2.7s auto
3.8s steady
4.1s GCD finishes
Either: 5.2 steady
4.8 auto (with the auto cast starting at 4.3s and starting the GCD for the next steady)

As you can see, the 2nd time through, the GCD is pushed back and finishes after the steadyshot. If another steady starts, we will end up with 3s between the autoshots, and an inefficient rotation. If the auto starts before we 'queue up' the next steady, then we get the 2.1s we normally get in a 1:1 rotation, and we are back on track with the GCD starting at the beginning of the autoshot cast. We end up with a nice 1:1.5 rotation looking like this:

0.0s auto
1.1s steady
2.2s steady
2.7s auto
3.8s steady
4.8s auto

5 shots in 4.8s (1.042 shots/sec), compared to a 1:1 rotation giving 4 shots in 4.2s (.952 shots/sec). That is nearly a 10% improvement in shot output.

Based on the tests I ran, the steady shot won't start to cast if an autoshot is mid cast. If it did, we would just get chain steady shots (and obviously we don't, other evidence is that the macro moves to an easy 1:1 rotation with RF procced). Now the interesting thing here is that you actually NEED some latency/slow reaction time to keep from falling into the inefficient 1:2 rotation. I noticed that a few times I fell into an a-s-s-a-s-s-a, and each time, the cast time between my subsequent autoshots was ~3.0s. To get a perfect 1:1.5 rotation with the new macro, you need a .2s latency/reaction time delay to cover up for the .2s between the GCD finishing and the start of the autoshot cast on the 1:1 portion of the rotation (when using a 2.9s weapon).

Now, if we take it a tad further, and look at a 2.7s weapon we get:

0.0s auto
1.1s steady
2.2s steady
2.7s auto
3.8s steady
4.66s auto

5 shots in 4.66s (1.073 shots/sec), compared to a 1:1 rotation giving 4 shots in 3.92s (1.02 shots/sec). Only ~5% improvement in shot output, which would clearly explain how the sunfury makes up so much ground on the faster weapons.

Well, there it is.
This is exactly the same conclusion I have reached. I'd been PMing back and forth with Lactose about it the last week. Great work on explaining it. I've done a lot of testing, and everything seems to point to this being the new mechanics.

In short:
1 - GCD is client only, and starts immediately upon sending the cast to the server
2 - Auto Shot can't be interrupted once the cast starts by other casts
3 - The next cast is "queued up" and began immediatetly after Auto Shot
4 - The server doesn't have any cooldown on Steady Shot. It counts on the client handling that through the GCD

I think it's possible to modify the Shot Rotation in the DPS spreadsheet to mimic these mechanics and create another button to model the new 3:2 rotation properly. The only problem is figuring out how to handle the jitter in how fast you can spam the macro and how much latency effects results.

Now, the question is if the GCD behavior is intended or not. As you've shown, because of the way it's done you can get 2 special shots cast in less than 1.5s. We'll have to pay close attention after 2.4 drops to see if this remains true.
#2726SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Perkypenguin
Because I don't know how to intelligently put this into words, I'll point it out another way.

This is in regards to auto shot firing and queueing.

Go up to a mob and fire and auto shot and arcane shot. Immediately cast Aimed Shot. .5 seconds into the cast of Aimed Shot, you'll see your 2nd auto shot go off.

What does this mean? I believe it means if Auto Shot is ready, the .5 cast will begin, regardless of what you start to cast immediately after the .5 cast begins. This is why autos are going off every 2.6 instead of 3.1 (based on the Sunfury results above).
#2727SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dhorne
Hi guys: Haven't been here in a while so I need to catch up on my reading. I just have a general question to bug ya'll with if you don't mind though. My guild won't let the hunters in the guild use their pets on Gruul's fight, I guess because people just can't seem to figure out how to get away from them when they explode and people die. That being said. My question is; Is there any way I can still keep my pet active during the fight so at least I can get the bonus from FF for myself?
Any advice or comment welcome:
Thanks again!
#2728SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Demlar
Pets are no longer affected by Shatter, I believe, so there's no reason to not use your pet on Gruul.
#2729SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Dhorne View Post
Hi guys: Haven't been here in a while so I need to catch up on my reading. I just have a general question to bug ya'll with if you don't mind though. My guild won't let the hunters in the guild use their pets on Gruul's fight, I guess because people just can't seem to figure out how to get away from them when they explode and people die. That being said. My question is; Is there any way I can still keep my pet active during the fight so at least I can get the bonus from FF for myself?
Any advice or comment welcome:
Thanks again!
Pet's haven't been a liability on Gruul for over 6 months. They can die if you don't pay attention to a Cave-in, but that only hurts you, not the raid.

WWS of my pet on a Gruul Kill. ~100% DPS time, only ever dealt damage to Gruul.
#2730SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Dhorne
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Pet's haven't been a liability on Gruul for over 6 months. They can die if you don't pay attention to a Cave-in, but that only hurts you, not the raid.

WWS of my pet on a Gruul Kill. ~100% DPS time, only ever dealt damage to Gruul.
Thanks. What I was trying to figure out was how if there is a way to keep my pet active for me. I already use drums of battle to help out with the raid since they usually throw me in with rogues and druid OT's. I can still pull off pretty decent DPS by going all out on Gruul without my pet, I was just hoping there was a way to bump me up a little more.
Thanks for the feedback!

Last edited by Dhorne : 01/31/08 at 4:37 PM. Reason: correction
#2731SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Path
Originally Posted by Thayer View Post
it may look like its clipping auto shots, but it is actually not, read page 108 for the start of the overlap discussion

3:2 means you fire 3 steady shots for every 2 auto shots.
Going to have to disagree here. The new macro does indeed cause some clipping, just not as bad as it used to. Mathematically, it is impossible to get off two steady shots between auto shots without pushing the 2nd shot back a bit.

Ignoring the GCD, 1.1+1.1+0.5=2.7. So, in the best case scenario, you pushed back the autoshot by .6s (assuming a 2.9s weapon). The thing is, even pushing it back, you still get a DPS improvement, so you come out ahead (well, except for mana consumption, but that is a different issue <grin>).

Last edited by Path : 01/28/08 at 2:49 PM.
#2732SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3alienangel
As good a place as any to ask I think, what solutions have people found to noticing when your pet is taking damage? Pre-TBC I used to have a custom flexbar event that printed a warning via SCT when my pet's health dropped below 40%. That stopped working with the WoW 2.0 Scripting changes.

For the past 6 months or so I've been using a mod called SCT Pet Health that does pretty much the same thing, but sometimes by the time the pet is taking damage it's too late already. I haven't managed to get PowerAuras to work on pet debuffs, but something like that would be nice.

What do you use?
#2733SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Melkunie
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
As good a place as any to ask I think, what solutions have people found to noticing when your pet is taking damage? Pre-TBC I used to have a custom flexbar event that printed a warning via SCT when my pet's health dropped below 40%. That stopped working with the WoW 2.0 Scripting changes.

For the past 6 months or so I've been using a mod called SCT Pet Health that does pretty much the same thing, but sometimes by the time the pet is taking damage it's too late already. I haven't managed to get PowerAuras to work on pet debuffs, but something like that would be nice.

What do you use?
My two biggest helps to keeping my pet alive in raids/pvp was basicly using Pitbull to turn my pet's unitframe to red if hes focused(pvp wise) and secondly adding his HP unitframe near my players frame so it looks like:

[-----me-----]
[---pet---]

I always used to have my pet on the left of lowerscreen near his own hotbar. But it resulted it way to many pet casualities.

But i would like to second your question as well, having a mod/option to add a Scrolling Combat Text to the pet would be another big help.
#2734SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hopkins
Today I ran a bunch of parses using combinations of the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle, Sunfury, Dragonspine Trophy and Hourglass of the Unraveller on Dr. Boom and came up with some odd results...results that most hunters say shouldn't be.

I'm Beast Mastery specced, standard 41/20/0 raid build. Everything I have read says that the DST is useless to us and that Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle is the best to go with Hourglass of the Unraveller/Bloodlust Brooch as trinkets.

I ran five parses each using the following (DPS'd on Dr. Boom for 3 minutes each round, popping 2 mana potions during that time, and keeping IAoTH on) :

1. Wolfslayer with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch (1830 RAP, 27.78% Crit, 1.92 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

2. Wolfslayer with DST and Bloodlust Brooch (1870 RAP, 26.33% Crit, 1.92 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

3. Sunfury with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch (1836 RAP, 27.88& Crit, 2.06 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

4. Sunfury with DST and Bloodlust Brooch (1876 RAP, 26.43% Crit, 2.06 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

Now again, after reading a ton of posts and reading other people's parses all signs point to the Wolfslayer with no haste providing the best DPS. Yet, these are my average results:

1. Wolfslayer with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch
150,729 dmg (825 dps)

2. Wolfslayer with DST and Bloodlust Brooch
160,179 dmg (873 dps)

3. Sunfury with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch
145,603 dmg (800 dps)

4. Sunfury with DST and Bloodlust Brooch
155,351 dmg (854 dps)

So now I am totally confused. Each of the give parses with the same weapons/trinkets that I did were massively different than the one before or after it. The highest total parse was one using the Sunfury with the DST -- 162,248 dmg over three minutes, or 889 dps. How do I figure out what is the best when each fight with the same equipment against the same NPC results in such radically different numbers?
#2735SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Hopkins View Post
Today I ran a bunch of parses using combinations of the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle, Sunfury, Dragonspine Trophy and Hourglass of the Unraveller on Dr. Boom and came up with some odd results...results that most hunters say shouldn't be.

I'm Beast Mastery specced, standard 41/20/0 raid build. Everything I have read says that the DST is useless to us and that Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle is the best to go with Hourglass of the Unraveller/Bloodlust Brooch as trinkets.

I ran five parses each using the following (DPS'd on Dr. Boom for 3 minutes each round, popping 2 mana potions during that time, and keeping IAoTH on) :

1. Wolfslayer with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch (1830 RAP, 27.78% Crit, 1.92 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

2. Wolfslayer with DST and Bloodlust Brooch (1870 RAP, 26.33% Crit, 1.92 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

3. Sunfury with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch (1836 RAP, 27.88& Crit, 2.06 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

4. Sunfury with DST and Bloodlust Brooch (1876 RAP, 26.43% Crit, 2.06 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

Now again, after reading a ton of posts and reading other people's parses all signs point to the Wolfslayer with no haste providing the best DPS. Yet, these are my average results:

1. Wolfslayer with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch
150,729 dmg (825 dps)

2. Wolfslayer with DST and Bloodlust Brooch
160,179 dmg (873 dps)

3. Sunfury with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch
145,603 dmg (800 dps)

4. Sunfury with DST and Bloodlust Brooch
155,351 dmg (854 dps)

So now I am totally confused. Each of the give parses with the same weapons/trinkets that I did were massively different than the one before or after it. The highest total parse was one using the Sunfury with the DST -- 162,248 dmg over three minutes, or 889 dps. How do I figure out what is the best when each fight with the same equipment against the same NPC results in such radically different numbers?
It all depends on the minimum time you personally can fire an auto/stead/auto. This minimum time in turn depends on your rection time(or how fast you mash a macro), your latency and the unknown factor of how the server is processing the commands you send it (lag).

For me, my minimum time seems to be about 1.6-1.7 seconds (on average) between auto shots. Of course, depending on my weapon speed I need varying amounts of haste to get there.

I've actually been contemplating getting the Don Santos' out of the bank and seeing if I can use the new client/server behavior of WoW to squeeze some really tight rotations.
#2736SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stinkerbelle
Originally Posted by Hopkins View Post
So now I am totally confused. Each of the give parses with the same weapons/trinkets that I did were massively different than the one before or after it. ... How do I figure out what is the best when each fight with the same equipment against the same NPC results in such radically different numbers?
Your post doesn't mention what rotation you were using. Were you spamming steady/macro for a ~3:2 rotation, or sticking with the old 1:1?

It's not really surprising that the results varied greatly on each round. Actual crit rate alone will cause a lot of variation (you could include this in the results to rule this out), and you've added 3 other proc-events to the stew (iaoth, dst, hourglass). It's still a worthwhile test, but requires a lot more data to reduce the margin of variability.

Another way to test DPS potential with those gear choices is to just count shots/time. This eliminates crit and hourglass proc variability, which have already been pretty thoroughly tested for procs/dps over time.
#2737SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3knudlen
Originally Posted by Path View Post
Based on the tests I ran, the steady shot won't start to cast if an autoshot is mid cast. If it did, we would just get chain steady shots (and obviously we don't, other evidence is that the macro moves to an easy 1:1 rotation with RF procced). Now the interesting thing here is that you actually NEED some latency/slow reaction time to keep from falling into the inefficient 1:2 rotation. I noticed that a few times I fell into an a-s-s-a-s-s-a, and each time, the cast time between my subsequent autoshots was ~3.0s. To get a perfect 1:1.5 rotation with the new macro, you need a .2s latency/reaction time delay to cover up for the .2s between the GCD finishing and the start of the autoshot cast on the 1:1 portion of the rotation (when using a 2.9s weapon).
would using the 3.1 s1 xbow help with that? or am i mis-understanding where that .2s is falling? granted it would only extend the autoshot 1.5s or so but for people with most stateside latencies that seems to be a good sweet spot.
#2738SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seipher
Is quickshots good for you? Is rapid fire good for you? Of course the DST is good for you. Unless you have a lot of haste gear eating up the slack with that WSR you are going to benefit from DST procs a lot. In fact as far as I can tell it is still the best trinket a hunter can get.
#2739SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ithikul
I keep hearing they hotpatched something or other and the first macro now clips auto-shots more then naught thus making the second macro the higher dps macro. I personally have noticed some clipping with my timers spamming this first macro but is there a definative answer on this problem? I have read that even with the timers visually clipping your auto's it might not actually be clipping them.

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#2740SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pidge
Originally Posted by Ithikul View Post
Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I'm not even sure that macro is better for 1:1 rotation. It's seems to me that the way it works now, starting to cast Steady Shot after the .5 casting time for Auto Shot has started no longer stops the Auto Shot from going off. If this is true, you can actually can Steady Shot a hair earlier than a castsequence macro will allow.
#2741SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Garby
Hi. I've recently learned a lot about macros as they pertain to a Beast Mastery hunter, and would appreciate some help.

My big problem: I seem to lack a full understanding of shot rotations. I've been doing a lot of reading in this forum and have played a hunter for over a year, and I would appreciate some help. Specifically, which one of the following 3 macros will push the most damage out of my mana bar? Is one of the following 3 macros even the most optimal for damage?

For reference, my armory profile is here: The World of Warcraft Armory.

[Edit] Wow Web Stats - a WWS for the most recent raid I was in. Present for all bosses.

If this is the wrong thread for this sort of question, please direct me to the appropriate one. Thanks in advance. =)


Macro 1
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Macro 2
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2.1 Steady Shot,Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Macro 3
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/castrandom multi-shot, arcane shot, steady shot, bestial wrath, 13, 14, rapid fire
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#2742SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3peterk0
Hello fellow hunters,

I was wondering how the discovery of the "new" ~3:2 macro, would change the usefulness of the Ashtoungue Talisman of the Swiftness for a BM hunter. Does anybody have time to do some calculations on this matter? I would very much appreciate some data or equations. To expand it even further, it could be useful to leave haste as a variable, or just use the basic weapon speed and multiply it by shot speed increade gained by talents and/or quiver.

For example, I'm using the ~3:2 macro with 2.9 legionkiller with 95 haste rating, putting me with BM talents and quiver bonus to 1.98 attack speed.

The purpose will be to model the actual atp/dps gain with variuos weapon speeds and maybe macros even.

Thanks in advance.
#2743SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nadhiyah
BM hunter need help :)

Hello, I would like to ask some tips for a shot-rotation (perhaps macro too). I have read the most of the posts, but couldn't get further. With the one i use now, i only get 1100 dps, and 'am nowhere in the dps list. Most BM hunters have 1200+ dps. What am I doing wrong? Would you help me?
>>link to my profile<<
Thank you for the help!
#2744SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3kaers
Originally Posted by Nadhiyah View Post
Hello, I would like to ask some tips for a shot-rotation (perhaps macro too). I have read the most of the posts, but couldn't get further. With the one i use now, i only get 1100 dps, and 'am nowhere in the dps list. Most BM hunters have 1200+ dps. What am I doing wrong? Would you help me?
>>link to my profile<<
Thank you for the help!

Basically BM mostly consists of using macro's to do your shot rotations for you. But it seems as if the problem isn't going to be your rotation if you're alerady doing 1100 dps with your gear etc, but it seems to be coming from your statistics and talent points spent. I fail to see if you're in a heavy pve environment(I see you haven't played arena on those teams), that you would spend your points rather randomly and picked quite poorly. First things first, respec to 41/20 to maximize your personal dps. This would be an ideal spec to go for... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ... I personally value imp mend pet > spirit bond because of what I tend to do. After that is done, you will need to get slightly more hit so that you're near the cap. Once you've done both of those you should be in better standings in your raid dps ranking if you keep up everything else as you do.
#2745SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saryanne
Originally Posted by Hopkins View Post
Today I ran a bunch of parses using combinations of the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle, Sunfury, Dragonspine Trophy and Hourglass of the Unraveller on Dr. Boom and came up with some odd results...results that most hunters say shouldn't be.

I'm Beast Mastery specced, standard 41/20/0 raid build. Everything I have read says that the DST is useless to us and that Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle is the best to go with Hourglass of the Unraveller/Bloodlust Brooch as trinkets.

I ran five parses each using the following (DPS'd on Dr. Boom for 3 minutes each round, popping 2 mana potions during that time, and keeping IAoTH on) :

1. Wolfslayer with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch (1830 RAP, 27.78% Crit, 1.92 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

2. Wolfslayer with DST and Bloodlust Brooch (1870 RAP, 26.33% Crit, 1.92 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

3. Sunfury with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch (1836 RAP, 27.88& Crit, 2.06 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

4. Sunfury with DST and Bloodlust Brooch (1876 RAP, 26.43% Crit, 2.06 Weapon Speed, 138 Hit Rating)

Now again, after reading a ton of posts and reading other people's parses all signs point to the Wolfslayer with no haste providing the best DPS. Yet, these are my average results:

1. Wolfslayer with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch
150,729 dmg (825 dps)

2. Wolfslayer with DST and Bloodlust Brooch
160,179 dmg (873 dps)

3. Sunfury with Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch
145,603 dmg (800 dps)

4. Sunfury with DST and Bloodlust Brooch
155,351 dmg (854 dps)

So now I am totally confused. Each of the give parses with the same weapons/trinkets that I did were massively different than the one before or after it. The highest total parse was one using the Sunfury with the DST -- 162,248 dmg over three minutes, or 889 dps. How do I figure out what is the best when each fight with the same equipment against the same NPC results in such radically different numbers?
Your going through exactly the same pain I am. I have the WSR and Sunfury, plus the DST. It used to be that a 1:1 priority with my WSR was better, but with the new mechanics changes I'm having a crazy time figuring out which is better. All of my tests bounce back and forth. I'm almost wondering if I would be better off without the DST as well.
#2746SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3QuiggyB
You would make your life a ton easier if you would just capture the number of auto shots and steady shots fired in a time period, assign some fixed average value to each ability, do the multiplication and divide by time to arrive at a relative dps value. Then you dont have to worry about extra crits here and there throwing off a run.
#2747SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lindelle
Yet Another Question About the "New" Macro

I currently use the "old" macro and have Multi-Shot in it as well. If I wanted to put it into this new macro, would it 1.) Increase or decrease my DPS? and 2.) How and where would I need to put it in the macro? I don't understand the new one and the ration involved as well as I did the old one.

P.S. If you armory, I'm currently Marks, but I always spec back out of BM after we've finished our BT/Hyjal clears. I am normally 41/20 for most raiding.
#2748SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3kaers
Originally Posted by Lindelle View Post
Yet Another Question About the "New" Macro

I currently use the "old" macro and have Multi-Shot in it as well. If I wanted to put it into this new macro, would it 1.) Increase or decrease my DPS? and 2.) How and where would I need to put it in the macro? I don't understand the new one and the ration involved as well as I did the old one.

P.S. If you armory, I'm currently Marks, but I always spec back out of BM after we've finished our BT/Hyjal clears. I am normally 41/20 for most raiding.

Your gear will definitely support the 1.5:1 steady/auto rotation, have you tried using the spreadsheets and plugging in the data? In my experience, I have similar gear as to you, I've had the new macro increase my dps solidly over the older one we used to refer to.
#2749SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lindelle
Originally Posted by kaers View Post
Your gear will definitely support the 1.5:1 steady/auto rotation, have you tried using the spreadsheets and plugging in the data? In my experience, I have similar gear as to you, I've had the new macro increase my dps solidly over the older one we used to refer to.
Are you referring to the 3:2 thing going around now, or the normal MM/SV manual weaving ratio? The only variance I haven't toyed with on the spreadsheet is rotation ratio. Mainly because I've been trying to use it to figure out specific gear changes, such as which neck or which trinket is best to pair with Madness. And lastly, would it be better to leave it as just Steady/Auto/KC or to add in Multi and/or Arcane? I found replacing and sometimes clipping increased my DPS overall. However, I don't know what it would do with this new macro. Should I just go do some Dr. Boom tests and ignore all damage done by Multi to the bomblings? And just to reitirate, I normally raid as BM. If I do use MM for a raid, it's either Hyjal for Archimonde and the utility on kiting, or Council and Illidan.
#2750SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nosti
With the new macros floating around I went to Dr. Boom and tested some stuff.

BM spec - Serpent Spine Longbow - quiver 15% - 65 haste rating ===> 2.09 effective weapon speed

I'm not interested in the DPS but rather how many shots are fired during what time. I did 2 tests, one with a manual 1:1 shot rotation, and one with a spam macro driven 1:1.5 shot rotation, and I recorded for each attempt the amount of hits with Recount.

The macro I used is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

manual 1:1 shot rotation (2.09 speed)

duration = 2 minutes (Hunter's Mark duration)

amount of steady shots = 57
amount of auto shots = 57

total shots = 114

Notice that due to the 1:1 rotation the amount of auto shots and steady shots is equal, also 57*2.09=119.13, which means that nearly no auto shot has been delayed.

spam macro driven 1:1.5 shot rotation (2.09 speed)

duration = 2 minutes (Hunter's Mark duration)

amount of steady shots = 74
amount of auto shots = 50

total shots = 124

Notice how the total amount of shots increases by 10 by using the macro. From my experience steady shot and auto shot do about the same damage, so spamming the macro seems to indicate an increase in DPS.


EDIT: Did another test with spam macro, while i removed my haste gear, bringing my effective weapon speed to 2.17.

spam macro driven 1:1.5 shot rotation (2.17 speed)

duration = 2 minutes (Hunter's Mark duration)

amount of steady shots = 74
amount of auto shots = 45

total shots = 119

Notice how removing the haste rating doesn't affect the amount of steady shots, but it does affect the amount of auto shots.

EDIT: Last test with spam macro, using my Sunfury Bow, bringing my effective weapon speed to 2.02.

spam macro driven 1:1.5 shot rotation (2.02 speed)

duration = 2 minutes (Hunter's Mark duration)

amount of steady shots = 74
amount of auto shots = 51

total shots = 125

Same amount of steady shots, slight increase of auto shots, which can be due to small error in timing the 2 minutes. It SEEMS to me that hasting your bow 2.09->2.02 hasn't much effect.

Last edited by Nosti : 01/31/08 at 11:35 PM.
#2751SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rokh
So it seems that 2.09spd is the "sweet spot" for the spam macro, but why is that? Any math why hasting from 2.17 to 2.09 yields a 5 Auto Shot increase, where as hasting from 2.09 to 2.02 only yields a 1 Auto Shot increase? Could it just be lag, or an anomaly that needs more data sets to average out, or is there a mathmatical "sweet spot" for weapon speed?
#2752SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Omegatron
Originally Posted by Rokh View Post
So it seems that 2.09spd is the "sweet spot" for the spam macro, but why is that? Any math why hasting from 2.17 to 2.09 yields a 5 Auto Shot increase, where as hasting from 2.09 to 2.02 only yields a 1 Auto Shot increase? Could it just be lag, or an anomaly that needs more data sets to average out, or is there a mathmatical "sweet spot" for weapon speed?
That is a good question. Latency is a big factor in any test like that.

Nosti what was your average latency on the tests?

Last edited by Omegatron : 02/01/08 at 1:25 AM.
#2753SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nosti
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
That is a good question. Latency is a big factor in any test like that.

Nosti what was your average latency on the tests?
I'm not entirely sure, but during that time of the day my latency typically varies between 30 and 60 ms, so rather low.

EDIT: did the spammacro 2.17, 2.09 and 2.02 tests again and got exactly the same results

I believe there will be a 'sweet' spot somewhere, or at least a spot after which increasing speed further has no noticable effect.

EDIT: I believe that there won't be a sweet spot, but several -pretty- 'sweet' spots, in the sense that haste might have no decent effect unless you pass certain thresholds, aka step-function.

I'm trying to model this rotation, but there are still some things I don't understand about that rotation and if you are aware please reply.

#1
If I spam Steady Shot, will it be cast every 1.5 seconds (GCD), or will the Auto Shots in between delay it sometimes? 74 Steady Shot * 1.5 second = 111 seconds. But if you add 0.1 second latency/reaction time for each GCD you get 74 * 1.6 second = 118.4, which is really close to 120 seconds.

#2
Auto Shot has a 0.5 seconds casting time, but can this casting time start when the GCD is still active?

#3
How do I calculate the casting time of Steady Shot? With quiver, Bestial Swiftness, haste rating? Do all 3 have an effect?


EDIT:

spam macro driven 1:1.5 shot rotation (1.95 speed using Long Redwood Bow (2.8))

duration = 2 minutes (Hunter's Mark duration)

amount of steady shots = 74
amount of auto shots = 54

total shots = 128

Last edited by Nosti : 02/01/08 at 8:05 AM.
#2754SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Nosti View Post
#2
Auto Shot has a 0.5 seconds casting time, but can this casting time start when the GCD is still active?
Auto Shot is controlled server-side, the GCD is client only, so they are completely independant.

Originally Posted by Nosti View Post
#3
How do I calculate the casting time of Steady Shot? With quiver, Bestial Swiftness, haste rating? Do all 3 have an effect?
All haste effects lower the cast time of Steady Shot.
#2755SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pancho
Hello guys,
What is your opinion(experience) about (Tuskbreaker - Items - World of Warcraft)
#2756SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nosti
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Auto Shot is controlled server-side, the GCD is client only, so they are completely independant.

All haste effects lower the cast time of Steady Shot.
I'm trying to calculate the effective bow speed and Steady Shot casting time from scratch using 15% quiver + 20% Bestial Swiftness + additional haste rating but the formula I found on WoWiki seems flawed, or I'm doign somethign wrong.
#2757SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Lactose
If for example have 4% Haste from Haste Rating:
Steady Shot cast time = 1.5 / (1.15*1.20*1.04)
Steady Shot cast time = 1.045
#2758SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Scio
Ive been researching about the BT hunter trinket [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and tried to theory some about the new 3:2 rotation and the trinkets procc, seeing as we now fire off more SSs in ten seconds then with the old /castsequence this trinket might be undervalued.

I personally fire off two SSs and one AS in 2.7seconds, in ten seconds i fire off a total of 7.4 SSs, this trinket needs an avrage of 6.66666 SSs to procc it's effect. Now I could be far far off since math neither theorycrafting is for me, I just spread the word around about new mechanics, but I would like that someone that is alot more into the maths to do crunch some numbers and help me out. Would be greatly appreciated.
#2759SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Azulor
Apologies for cross-posting but the relevant discussion seems to be jumping from thread to thread:

http://elitistjerks.com/620136-post397.html

_Issue_: In my albeit limited tests, there appears to be a serious problem implementing 3:2 when your pet is actually attacking (and KC is in the macro).

To add to what is in that post, I recently went to Dr Boom with the same gear discussed in the post above, and edited the 3:2 macro so that the KC command was just \cast Kill Command, with no modifiers for the pet having a target. The same issue arose.

Hence, _query_: Can 3:2 be implemented when your pet is actually attacking something? My data suggests not but perhaps I have screwed up somehow.
#2760SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Demlar
I have a question on the new macro. I tried it out last night in Kara and had some unexpected results. The macro I used was:

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

When I was spamming that the only thing I did was cast auto shot. I never saw steady shot go off even once in the first 4 trash pulls going to Moroes. Am I missing something on the macro? Also, doesn't having kill command on just /cast rather than /castrandom mean it won't do steady shot till it casts kill command or am I missing something there as well? Any help is appreciated.
#2761SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Cranch
Hmm

Here are some more measurements, this time with close attention paid to Quickshot uptime.

/castsequence macro, Dr. Boom, 1.96 speed, ~80msec latency, hunter's mark clicked, macro spammed, exactly 1 minute elapsed.
Quickshot time   steadies  autos
12 sec           31        32
24 sec           31        32
24 sec           31        32
same as above, except using Abacus of Violent Odds also
Quickshot time   steadies  autos
17 sec           33        34
20 sec           33        33
/cast !auto /cast steady macro instead, no Abacus
Quickshot time   steadies  autos
27 sec           37        30
(lost it)        36        30
54 sec (woot)    37        34
as above, except with abacus
Quickshot time   steadies  autos
39 sec           38        32
22 sec           37        31
As expected, the /cast macro gives ~5% more shots.

Given my latency of ~80-100 msec, 60/1.6 = 37.5 which matches the number of steady shots I am seeing above.

Haste made the autoshots shoot faster, thereby giving more steady shots with the castsequence macro, which matches what I see above.

Stupidly, I thought quickshot affected steady shots, but of course it doesn't.

What the above says is that possibly the haste that the Abacus gives you may not get you any extra shots at all if you use the /cast /cast macro. In which case the trinket is not as good as the Hourglass or even the Core of Ar'kelos.

Last edited by Cranch : 02/01/08 at 7:32 PM.
#2762SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
orsraunia
Originally Posted by Scio View Post
Ive been researching about the BT hunter trinket [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] and tried to theory some about the new 3:2 rotation and the trinkets procc, seeing as we now fire off more SSs in ten seconds then with the old /castsequence this trinket might be undervalued.
Last teron kill, i had 110 steadies in 191secs and the trinket proced 11 times. I don't know if
this helps you at all, but it's an indication.

WWS LOG

With my rate of fire, the theoretical procs should have been about 16, so it's pretty close.
Especially if we take into account that when and if a proc gets refreshed, this new proc is probably not(?) recorded in the WWS log. Although i am not 100% sure about this last thing.

Meaning that i am not sure what happens if a new proc refreshes a previous one, is it recorded in the wws logs as a new proc or not being counted at all ? I think the latter (as this happens with FI too), but just in case If someone knows for sure, please let me know.

Last edited by orsraunia : 02/02/08 at 6:56 AM.
#2763SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Omegatron
Originally Posted by Demlar View Post
I have a question on the new macro. I/ tried it out last night in Kara and had some unexpected results. The macro I used was:

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

When I was spamming that the only thing I did was cast auto shot. I never saw steady shot go off even once in the first 4 trash pulls going to Moroes. Am I missing something on the macro? Also, doesn't having kill command on just /cast rather than /castrandom mean it won't do steady shot till it casts kill command or am I missing something there as well? Any help is appreciated.

Wow Web Stats
Spamming same macro you posted.

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

You said you never had a steady shot when using it, are you sure? If so, it is a error/typo in the macro you are using.
#2764SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kimmee
Originally Posted by Demlar View Post
I have a question on the new macro. I tried it out last night in Kara and had some unexpected results. The macro I used was:

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

When I was spamming that the only thing I did was cast auto shot. I never saw steady shot go off even once in the first 4 trash pulls going to Moroes. Am I missing something on the macro? Also, doesn't having kill command on just /cast rather than /castrandom mean it won't do steady shot till it casts kill command or am I missing something there as well? Any help is appreciated.
If that is the macro copied directly from your game, your problem is overlooking capitalization. You'll need to properly capitalize the S's in both Auto Shot and Steady Shot.

Reminds me of when my warlock stopcasting macro wouldn't work because I made it /cast Shadowbolt instead of /cast Shadow Bolt hehe.

EDIT: Just kidding, it works even with the lower case S, I just tested it. The only other thing I can think of is there might be extra spaces in there somewhere. I'm not sure if that affects it though.
#2765SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Leneson
It seems as if when im spamming my normal old 1:1 steady shot macro, everytime after it casts kill command it lags up and sits there not casting for a sec, then starts up again. I don't understand why this happens if KC isn't in anyway on the GCD....

Any ideas?
#2766SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Doomglazer
Another question concerning weapon choise at the moment i'm still using Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle.
But since we killed Lady Vash last night the bow that she drops comes into my reach.
I'm a 41/20/0 Beastmaster hunter. Should i go for the bow Lady Vash drops or should i stick wih my Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle ?
#2767SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Koshuki
I got a question about raiding as BM, since I would like to give it a final go because of its famous higher dps compared to any other hunter spec. I've always been MM (pre-TBC and with a 7/48/6 actual build). Actually we are raiding MH (4/5) and BT (4/9). Usually i can get good overall dps as MM, but last raid (BT, pet died only twice, specced BM 41/20) my damage went a bit crappy (way crap compared to my usual one)... using a 1:1 rotation instead of the 1:1.5 (with arcane and multi) which I used as MM. Any suggestions about it? I can't believe I am doing more dmg as MM than BM with the same gear. Armory isn't working so i'll write a few stats of me:

As MM selfbuffed with TSA and AoTH:

2306 AP
29,22% crit
140 hit rating
speed 2.52s

I don't have 2xT5, though I have beast tamers shoulders if it can help.

Any suggestion is of course welcomed, thanks <3
#2768SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Doomglazer View Post
Another question concerning weapon choise at the moment i'm still using Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle.
But since we killed Lady Vash last night the bow that she drops comes into my reach.
I'm a 41/20/0 Beastmaster hunter. Should i go for the bow Lady Vash drops or should i stick wih my Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle ?
I have both the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and [Serpent Spine Longbow]. I use the gun for all raid fights except Kael'thas (you really want a quiver equipped for this one). I use the bow in PvP exclusively.
#2769SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Blyx
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Would these macros produce the same 1:2 rotation? If not, why? I just find sometimes I'm getting severe chain steady shot casts (like 4-5) before an auto from just spamming the macro and I'm afraid this is hurting my DPS.
#2770SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saryanne
You know we really need a synopsis post , all of these threads are so dang long.

Ok I need some help from the Math guys. I have done test after test, but they are inconsistent and I can't get a good result.

I have the WSR and Sunfury. I also have the DST. As a normal 41/20 BM spec with IAOTH, counting in procs from DST and IAOTH, which weapon is "theoretically" better using the "new" shot macro.

Cheekys isn't helping me with the new macro, and due to so many procs and such, my Dr Boom testing is hard to get consistent data.
#2771SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
mistla
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I have both the [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] and [Serpent Spine Longbow]. I use the gun for all raid fights except Kael'thas (you really want a quiver equipped for this one). I use the bow in PvP exclusively.

Cheeky,

I am a much less experienced hunter than you and stand in awe of the work you have put into your spreadsheet. I use it almost exclusively for determining upgrades and shot cycles.

However, since 2.3.2 and the new 3:2 macro discussed in this thread I went out to Dr. Boom and did some testing. After viewing the results I started using my Sunfury bow (which like you I previously only used for pvp) instead of the WSR in raids with the 3:2 rotation. The result was about a 150dps boost over the old 1:1 macro with WSR. The bow was only slightly better than the WSR in testing (and I am a troll). For testing I used aspect of viper, no hunters mark, and popped no cooldowns. Additionally, the bow shoud be more tolerant of lag than the WSR when Rapid Fire, IAoH, Dragonspine, Bloodlust, ... pop or more haste gear is added.

The new shot mechanics, intentionally or otherwise seem to have freed bm hunters from weapon speed as the overriding factor in dps. I am prepared to switch back should Blizzard decide to revert the change, but right now I think the bow is the better weapon if you are a troll and use the 3:2 rotation macro.

Last edited by mistla : 02/04/08 at 1:11 PM.
#2772SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by mistla View Post
Cheeky,

I am a much less experienced hunter than you and stand in awe of the work you have put into your spreadsheet. I use it almost exclusively for determining upgrades and shot cycles.

However, since 2.3.2 and the new 3:2 macro discussed in this thread I went out to Dr. Boom and did some testing. After viewing the results I started using my Sunfury bow (which like you I previously only used for pvp) instead of the WSR in raids with the 3:2 rotation. The result was about a 150dps boost over the old 1:1 macro with WSR. The bow was only slightly better than the WSR in testing (and I am a troll). For testing I used aspect of viper, no hunters mark, and popped no cooldowns. Additionally, the bow shoud be more tolerant of lag than the WSR when Rapid Fire, IAoH, Dragonspine, Bloodlust, ... pop or more haste gear is added.

The new shot mechanics, intentionally or otherwise seem to have freed bm hunters from weapon speed as the overriding factor in dps. I am prepared to switch back should Blizzard decide to revert the change, but right now I think the bow is the better weapon if you are a troll and use the 3:2 rotation macro.
A lot of people are seeing that. I haven't been one of them. I think part of the OMGness of it is because people were unaware of how badly their /castsequence macros were hurting them, and the new macro does not have that problem. I haven't come up with what I feel is a good model of how the new macro works yet. I'm doing a little work on it, but with 2.4 looming I may delay putting hours into changing the spreadsheet just to have to deal with whatever new thing arrives. I have a sneaking suspicion we're kinda "between mechanics" right now. Either that, or Blizzard has been even more clueless than usual in regards to Hunter DPS mechanics the last couple patches/hotfixes.

I strongly recommend any Hunter try out all their weapons/macros and see what works best. There is some talk now that using KC in the macro causes you to clobber more Auto Shots. If that's true it may mean the new macro is no more total DPS (all tests have been petless on Dr. Boom) and less mana efficiency.

There are a lot of Hunters doing work on this, like Thayer. Hopefully that research will let us construct a better model of the timings of things.
#2773SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3densetsu1
Hi guys,

First of all thanks to all those for all the great help you provide on these forums. I've been reading around on and off all day today, but Im still confused on a few things. Please know I definitely have used the search function, i was just hoping for some clarification

Id like to know what the optimal macro for me would be as a 41/20 bm hunter with th s1 pvp xbow. I used the "old" macro for a while then just recently updated it with a newer macro with the !Auto Shot deal in it.. im just not sure if thats what i should be doing??

I used the spreadsheet but its all confusing to me, lol..

Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory

1738 rap and 27.46% crit unbuffed w/ aoth. Any advice on appropriate macro would be great.. Thanks!
#2774SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3QuiggyB
I believe what the posts above are saying is nobody knows what "best" is right now. Plenty of people have posted what works for them over the last several pages. You need to go spend some quality time with Dr Boom testing each with your range off weapons to see what works best for you. Over time things will become more definitive but for now thats the best you can do.
#2775SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grymwish
First, thank you all for doing all this testing and theory-work. I love messing with numbers and used to think I was good at it until I got to this site.

At the moment, I am using the arcanite-steam pistol (2.9 base speed), 41/20 BM, 15% quiver, and 25 Haste bonus. With the new macro, I have seen an inrease in raid damage using the other hunters as reference.

My question is: when Rapid Fire is used and/or IAotH procs (or DST for that matter which Im still in the back of the line for), is it better to switch to 1:1 during the haste or continue to spam the macro? Or at what speed is it better to switch to 1:1 ratio?

Ive tried to test it, but the IAotH procs are too random and rapid fire is too short to give consistant results.
#2776SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Reinforce
Hello, about the new macro, I've found 3 different versions of it - which is the right and correct one?

#showtooltip
/assist [help, combat]
/stopmacro [help]
/castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot


/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


#showtooltip Steady Shot
/assist [help, combat]
/stopmacro [help]
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


Thanks in advance~

Last edited by Reinforce : 02/05/08 at 8:04 PM.
#2777SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Anghellic
Hello, about the new macro, I've found 3 different versions of it - which is the right and correct one?

#showtooltip
/assist [help, combat]
/stopmacro [help]
/castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot


/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


#showtooltip Steady Shot
/assist [help, combat]
/stopmacro [help]
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


Thanks in advance~

These are the macro's I use.
1:1 rotation with KC in as well. (Better mana efficiency)

/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

3:2 rotation with KC. (Better DPS)

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Last edited by Anghellic : 02/06/08 at 12:21 AM.
#2778SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Reinforce
Thanks, I'll use that one since it seems to be more suited for slower bows then the Wolfslayer.

Also I would like to confirm something. Is the Vengefull Waraxe really better then Legacy?
#2779SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bupu
Originally Posted by Reinforce View Post
Thanks, I'll use that one since it seems to be more suited for slower bows then the Wolfslayer.

Also I would like to confirm something. Is the Vengefull Waraxe really better then Legacy?
It is indeed.
#2780SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kyuki
You can use the "spam macro" for 1:1 rotations aswell.
:
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
:

What you need to do is simply tap the macro three times fast, and then let your shot go off, and then tap three times again. Rinse and repeat.
#2781SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nho
Ok, not sure if this has been answered already, but I really don't have time to go through 100+ pages to find out.

I'm a BM hunter and my guild has Kara and ZA on farm. We've just started TK.

I have the Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix and the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle finally dropped for me. I'll probably never get the rifle off Doomwalker and I don't plan on shedding 2k+ gold for the rifle once it becomes BoE in 2.4

SO, my question is this. When does it become viable, as a BM hunter to use Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix over Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle ? How much +haste do I need to stack bascially ? I don't feel like spending 250-300g on the +28crit scope for the rifle if all I need is 1-2 more haste pieces.

Thanks for the info. This site has almost doubled my DPS since I started reading it about 2-3 weeks ago.

Last edited by Nho : 02/06/08 at 4:37 PM.
#2782SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mutilation
When I'm raiding Karazhan, and doing a boss like Prince or NB, I have to watch the AoE effects on these bosses from not killing my pet by commanding my pet in and forth all the time.. And while using KC+SS macro, everytime I've critted and starting to cast SS, my pet will charge in to do KC... Is there anything to prevent this??
#2783SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Mutilation View Post
When I'm raiding Karazhan, and doing a boss like Prince or NB, I have to watch the AoE effects on these bosses from not killing my pet by commanding my pet in and forth all the time.. And while using KC+SS macro, everytime I've critted and starting to cast SS, my pet will charge in to do KC... Is there anything to prevent this??
Try using conditionals in your Kill Command line.

[target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command

When you recall your pet that should clear his target. This will cause the kill command to not fire in the macro because the target=pettarget,exists conditional fails.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/06/08 at 6:13 PM. Reason: Excluded quote
#2784SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teldra
Originally Posted by Nho View Post
Ok, not sure if this has been answered already, but I really don't have time to go through 100+ pages to find out.

I'm a BM hunter and my guild has Kara and ZA on farm. We've just started TK.

I have the Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix and the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle finally dropped for me. I'll probably never get the rifle off Doomwalker and I don't plan on shedding 2k+ gold for the rifle once it becomes BoE in 2.4

SO, my question is this. When does it become viable, as a BM hunter to use Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix over Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle ? How much +haste do I need to stack bascially ? I don't feel like spending 250-300g on the +28crit scope for the rifle if all I need is 1-2 more haste pieces.

Thanks for the info. This site has almost doubled my DPS since I started reading it about 2-3 weeks ago.
Honestly this varies for everyone depending on their gear, latency, server lag, and play style. The best thing to do is spend some quality time with Dr. Boom and see what works for you. As for *me*, I found that using the new macro with no haste gear and a latency of 230 (on average) the Sunfury out performs the Wolfslayer by about 100 dps on static tests with Dr. Boom, and about 50 dps in normal boss fights.
#2785SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arthian
Is it time to start a new BM hunter thread.

I've just spent a few very interesting days reading through the thread and I have to say that there is a great wealth of information in there. However, the trend is that we are starting to get more and more, which weapon is good for me posts, or which shot rotation should I use.

What I would be prepared to do, as lets face it is much more interesting that work at the moment is start a new thread which would attempt to cover the basic, how do I play questions, leaving the rest of the thread to more theory crafting.

Do any of the more established posters here think this is necessary? If so the sort of topics I think should be covered would include:
  • shot rotation;
  • macro's;
  • weapon speed;
  • gear;
  • type of pet;
  • pet skills;
  • cheekys;
  • cookie cutter specs; and
  • pet's on bosses

I'm sure that there are others that people would come up with. The idea would simply be to make a linking page, for example shot rotation questions see this particulary good post.
#2786SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3opet123
BM raid dps

First off
yes i think 0/31/30 is an awesome spec, you can get about 1900 AP and about 30 crit with decent gear, S1 gear t4 w/e
and x/41/x isnt a bad spec either.
but the thing is, BM / MM or 41/20/0 is THE dps raid spec now.
your pet depending on whether its a cat / scorpid / ravager will have around 150 base dps
and in t4 the hunter will have around 360 base dps
with around 27% crit
with a 15% speed quiver and 2.8 speed bow your attack speed will be at 2.08 with BM spec
that is the key to shot rotation
because your pets dps is improved, your auto shot is also improved, giving you less wasted time during a shot rotation.
ofcourse a terrible hunter can screw that up.
but BM will become THE range raid dps, in the hands of a skilled hunter
in my guild the top 5 dps is me and another BM hunter
but full epic etc etc
the other dps is a deep fire mage as well as a shadow priest
all of us have t4 pieces and are experienced
#2787SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Seven
Originally Posted by Arthian View Post
Is it time to start a new BM hunter thread.

I've just spent a few very interesting days reading through the thread and I have to say that there is a great wealth of information in there. However, the trend is that we are starting to get more and more, which weapon is good for me posts, or which shot rotation should I use.

What I would be prepared to do, as lets face it is much more interesting that work at the moment is start a new thread which would attempt to cover the basic, how do I play questions, leaving the rest of the thread to more theory crafting.

Do any of the more established posters here think this is necessary? If so the sort of topics I think should be covered would include:
  • shot rotation;
  • macro's;
  • weapon speed;
  • gear;
  • type of pet;
  • pet skills;
  • cheekys;
  • cookie cutter specs; and
  • pet's on bosses

I'm sure that there are others that people would come up with. The idea would simply be to make a linking page, for example shot rotation questions see this particulary good post.
Such a thread would realy help a lot. Some parts are covered in Hunter - Help me Please, but I think we should realy have a new Summary thread like "BM Raiding Hunters in 2.3 Theorycrafting" which is kept up to date. This could realy save a lot of common questions answered multiple times in this thread.

It would be a lot of copy/paste work and credits should be given to people like glaurong, cheeky, ....
which pushed armies of hunters (including myself) to a whole other level of gameplay.

As a start I'd like to post one of the topics listed above, to see how such a ultimate BM Raiding Hunter post could look like.

[*]shot rotation macro's;

Introduction:
At the moment there exist several shot rotation macros with Steady shot and Auto Shot. It is considered the most efficient Rotation for BM Hunters because of their high attackspeed. Kill Command is included into those macros for an additional DPS boost at low mana costs.

If mana is none of a problem (f.e. with SP in your group), Beastmasters can also run what I'd like to call "Full out Rotations" with aditional Arcane Shot and Multi Shot.


Spammable Makros:

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Explanation: With the new "weird" shot mechanics (you can cast specials during the hidden autoshot casttime), this macro pulls off more steadyshots than autoshots. The result is a higher amount of shots per second, higher manausage per second, higher DPS. 3:2 rotation.


Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Explanation: This makro always waits for autoshot to !go off! until the next steady shot is cast. Result: True 1:1 rota, becomes more efficient with increasing amount of haste.


Beast Mastery Steady, Arcane, Multi Rotation (Ridiculously High Mana Usage, Very High DPS) Especialy good on trash with no active CC.

...placeholder.....should be some castsequence makro..... unfortunately can't recreate it as I'm currently not at my WoW Computer


Non Spammable Makros:

...placeholder ...


Sources:

link xy


Credits(at the end of the whole post):

True masters of the Beast are: ......

----------------------------------------------------
Alle the info has been taken from this thread so far. Feel free to copy paste, improve and correct the bad language ;-). This should just be an impression of how it could look like.

Last edited by Seven : 02/07/08 at 3:46 AM.
#2788SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Alassea
Hello, after reading about this new '3:2-macro' I was wondering about 1 thing: This macro gives you more steadyshots but less autoshots. Isn't it true you will get less IAotH (Quick Shots) procs (means less dps)? Since Quick Shots only procs from autoshots iirc.

I've seen a lot of people have been testing with AotV and got a lot more dps @ Dr. Boom... I've tried it myself with Don Santos' gun and AotH and I got more dps with the old 1:1-macro. Maybe it's just bad luck (tried both macro's 10 runs each, using just the macro's, no BW, trinkets) but it started to get me wondering why...

Last edited by Alassea : 02/07/08 at 7:13 AM.
#2789SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Griffen
Originally Posted by Seven View Post

Spammable Makros:

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Explanation: With the new "weird" shot mechanics (you can cast specials during the hidden autoshot casttime), this macro pulls off more steadyshots than autoshots. The result is a higher amount of shots per second, higher manausage per second, higher DPS. 3:2 rotation.
I'm sorry, I don't want to seem lazy as I haven't checked all previous posts and so on but I'm slightly confused by this macro.

I know there was macros like this circulating for a while a few weeks(?) ago when it seemed auto-shot could not be "delayed", thus firing 3 steady shots in a row would give you 2 consecutive auto shots. I might have gotten this wrong, but I thought this was hot fixed as it also produced double special shots if abused.

I could go back and read, but Im not sure which posts are from this time, and which posts are after the hot-fix.

So, question is really - is it still possible to do 3:2 rotations, how do they work? (have I misunderstood the concept)

And, can you really cast specials during the hidden auto shot casttime without delaying auto shot?

Best regards
Griffen
Argent Dawn, EU.
#2790SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Howitzer
What I am going to do is start work on the original OP post of this thread and create a culmination of the information in the 100's of pages of this mega-post. The thread will hopefully be renamed and be a focus point for BM hunters. There is too much great information here that can benefit lots of people. So, by stuffing all important information in the very 1st post, we can hopefully squash a lot of simple questions that get asked in this post over and over again. Give me a week or two to do it.
#2791SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Thayer
Originally Posted by Alassea View Post
Hello, after reading about this new '3:2-macro' I was wondering about 1 thing: This macro gives you more steadyshots but less autoshots. Isn't it true you will get less IAotH (Quick Shots) procs (means less dps)? Since Quick Shots only procs from autoshots iirc.

I've seen a lot of people have been testing with AotV and got a lot more dps @ Dr. Boom... I've tried it myself with Don Santos' gun and AotH and I got more dps with the old 1:1-macro. Maybe it's just bad luck (tried both macro's 10 runs each, using just the macro's, no BW, trinkets) but it started to get me wondering why...
So far, it seems that with 2.7 weapon speed there is some debate as to which macro yields more DPS.

The main problem with testing Don Santos is that it has its own proc as well, and if it stacks with Quick Shots, it increases DPS at a multiplicative rate. Because of this it may have some fluctuations in DPS returns, especially if your sample is not large enough.

I suggest you run tests with each macro that covers at least 1000 shots fired, in order the reduce the variations in critical hits and procs. Also note the final critical hit rate at the end of each test run, as any large variation in this will effect the final result outside of the behavior of the macro. Did you average out all 10 runs, or did you compare them individually?

Also, if you happen to have a WWS stats account available to you or your guild, see if they will allow you to post the combat logs for each test run to compare, as with this you can use the report filters to see how many times you got a proc from each ability.

You will also have to divide the total time spent in combat by the number of procs for each, as each macro consumes different amounts of mana, and thus the length of time changes. This is primarily the reason i suggest doing your test according to the amount of shots fired, as opposed to the amount of mana consumed (the result of a 10 bars each test), because it will eliminate this last step.

This way, you will come up with both a DPS comparison, and a procs per minute comparison.
#2792SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nikoa
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
What I am going to do is start work on the original OP post of this thread and create a culmination of the information in the 100's of pages of this mega-post. The thread will hopefully be renamed and be a focus point for BM hunters. There is too much great information here that can benefit lots of people. So, by stuffing all important information in the very 1st post, we can hopefully squash a lot of simple questions that get asked in this post over and over again. Give me a week or two to do it.
Howitzer, I wish you had decided to do this three weeks ago when as a noob hunter I read through all of the pages. I could have helped you. In any case things you should mention:

1) Shot rotation
2) Bow weapon speed
3) Scorpids how they got nurfed (mostly because there is about 20 pages worth of tests and ideas tossed around only to be nurfed)
4) Best BM pet
5) Your posts about what resists to have per raid

Those are the questions that come up a lot as I was reading all the posts.

oh and
6) New shot rotation (!Autoshot) vs old shot rotation (1:1 vs 1:2)
#2793SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Kill command crushing auto shot.

I wanted to try to figure out a way to test the 3:2 macro to find out if kill command is blocking auto shots. I spent some quality time with Dr. Boom to get a baseline then went to fight against a Servant of Sevine in The Blasted Lands (unkillable unless you destroy the crystal they walk around).

My pet was able to hold aggro with me using [Well Crafted Long Bow] and [Rough Arrow] allowing me to test using my full mana bar.

Macro used
#showtooltip
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

No haste gear other than quiver (15%), no trinkets and pet was put away for Dr. Boom test.
Aspect of the Viper, Superior Mana Oil and Elixir of Major Mage Blood.
Latency was around 80 for for both tests.


Dr. Boom 1000 shots fired

Ignored the opening shots after each feign. They were always Auto > Steady and then a 3:2 cycle
Ignored the ending shots before a feign which were usually just an extra auto.
Feign and drink 6 times

Results:
186 clean cycles - full 3:2 rotation. Longest streak was 25
7 2:1 strings - steady > auto > steady between clean cycles.
3 3:1 strings - steady > steady > auto > steady between clean cycles.
7 1:0 strings - An extra steady shot between clean cycles.

Final ratio (Steady:Auto)
591:384
Or
3.07:2

I believe the break down in the rotation can be attributed to lag.


Servant of Sevine 1000 shots fired

Ignored the opening shots after each feign. They were always Auto > Steady
Feign and drink 9 times

Results:
Only 20 clean rotations (3:2) were observed in the log.
Kill Command fired 158 times during the test.
The average number of steady shots following a kill command before the next auto shot was fired was 1.85 and only 4 kill commands were immediately followed by an auto shot. The breakdown was as follows:

# Count
0 4
1 55
2 70
3 22
4 7

# is the number of steady shots that fired after kill command before the next auto shot was fired. #0 means the kill command was immediately followed by an auto shot (this happened 4 times). #4 means there were 4 steady shots fired before the next auto shot was fired (this happened 7 times).

Final ratio (Steady:Auto)
688:294
Or
2.34:1



I was using a script to fire the macro every .05 seconds.

Dr Boom (3 second sample)
2/7 20:02:53.001 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 20:02:53.047 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 20:02:53.126 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 20:02:53.204 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 20:02:53.579 Your Steady Shot crits Dr. Boom for 686.
2/7 20:02:53.891 Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 187.
2/7 20:02:54.501 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 20:02:54.547 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 20:02:54.657 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 20:02:54.704 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 20:02:55.032 Your Steady Shot hits Dr. Boom for 295.
2/7 20:02:55.844 Your Auto Shot hits Dr. Boom for 190.


Servant of Sevine (3 second sample)
2/7 22:17:22.079 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.079 Concussive Shot fades from Servant of Sevine.
2/7 22:17:22.126 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.126 Your Steady Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 508.
2/7 22:17:22.126 Servant of Sevine attacks. Baconbit blocks.
2/7 22:17:22.204 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.266 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.360 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.422 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.501 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.547 Your Auto Shot hits Servant of Sevine for 236.
2/7 22:17:22.579 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.657 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.719 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.813 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.876 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:22.922 Baconbit hits Servant of Sevine for 128.
2/7 22:17:22.954 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.032 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.110 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.172 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.266 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.329 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.360 Baconbit 's Gore crits Servant of Sevine for 105.
2/7 22:17:23.407 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.469 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.563 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.626 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.704 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.735 Baconbit casts Growl on Servant of Sevine.
2/7 22:17:23.751 Your Steady Shot crits Servant of Sevine for 873.
2/7 22:17:23.782 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.860 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:23.907 Baconbit hits Servant of Sevine for 131.
2/7 22:17:23.922 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.016 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.079 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.141 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.235 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.297 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.376 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.454 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.532 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/7 22:17:24.563 Baconbit gains 50 Focus from Go for the Throat.
2/7 22:17:24.563 Baconbit 's Gore hits Servant of Sevine for 98.
2/7 22:17:24.688 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 22:17:24.751 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 22:17:24.797 You fail to cast Kill Command: Another action is in progress.
2/7 22:17:24.829 You fail to cast Kill Command: Not yet recovered.
2/7 22:17:24.829 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 22:17:24.907 You fail to cast Kill Command: Not yet recovered.
2/7 22:17:24.907 You fail to perform Steady Shot: Not yet recovered.
2/7 22:17:24.938 Baconbit hits Servant of Sevine for 131.
2/7 22:17:24.985 You fail to cast Kill Command: Not yet recovered.


It would appear it is the failure of the Kill Command that is stopping the auto shots and it may be that using the script to spam the macro so quickly actually magnified the problem. I can provide the raw combat logs to anyone that would like to see them.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/12/08 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Added item links
#2794SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Seven
Hmm I can somehow confirm that.
Here is a WWS log of Yesterdays BT run. I used the makro posted in my previous reply and was abled to stand and nuke the whole fight.
The Makro was spammed by simple "buttonmashing" without scripts as fast prax's one.

Teron Gorefiend

In this fight we get a ratio steady/Auto = 87/49 with one missed auto and one missed steady.

So it tends to 2:1 in this fight. If you take a closer look on other fights (I have only been in for Gorefiend, RoS, Mother S. and Illidan),
it slides to 3:2 and even 1:1. This happens in when the fight requires more movement than Gorefiend.

As a personal conclusion (only for ME in BT with KC in the makro):

The more time I'm abled to spam the marco undisturbed, the more the relation between steady and auto follows the steady direction.
I assume with 4x T6 Bonus this won't be a bad thing since the tier-6 set bonus counts for steadys not for autos. Firing more shots per time
should easily outweigh the damage loss by delaying some autos (which do more damage than my steadys atm, because of Arrow damage).

Has anybody found similar results in his WWS logs? If it is reproducable by others I should rapidly correct my previous post.
Maybe somebody could come up with a better Version of the macro which avoids delaying autos from KC.

Last edited by Seven : 02/08/08 at 7:27 AM. Reason: Bad spelling
#2795SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orsraunia
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
In this fight we get a ratio steady/Auto = 87/49 with one missed auto and one missed steady.

So it tends to 2:1 in this fight. If you take a closer look on other fights (I have only been in for Gorefiend, RoS, Mother S. and Illidan),
it slides to 3:2 and even 1:1. This happens in when the fight requires more movement than Gorefiend.
The factor that affects this ratio the most, is the number and nature of the haste effects that you get in a fight. It doesn't get any simpler than this.
Take me as an example, when my attack speed drops below 1.85 (rough estimate), it auto-converts to 1:1. This might be a flat 1.85 for anyone (about that much) or a 1,5 + latency (as i usually play with 220-280ms), i don't know that.

The only thing that i and the rest can tell you is some general remarks, unless someone spends days testing taking into account a great deal of factors and what happens on different values of these factors. Better try for yourself and see, this has been my opinion since ever.

Fact1: This /cast steady-auto spamming is not a rotation, it's not even a sequence. It's a free style spam issuing of commands to fire steady and auto. So whichever is ready at any given moment that these commands are being issued, it fires.

Fact2: If your average steady does more damage than your average auto, if you use a heavy hitting 3.0 speed weapon (like Archimonde's), if you use the Ashtongue talisman of swiftness trinket, if you can afford the extra mana, then in my opinion it's better to follow this style of playing and try to be as often hasted as possible [exactly like you would do with the classic strict 1:1 style (concerning trying to be hasted as often as possible), haste is our friend (i am talking about haste effects and not haste gear)].

Fact3: What we (at least me) are trying to do is like dish out a bit more damage by favoring steady over auto, get more procs out of our Ashtongue trinket and try to be hasted as often as possible, because nothing can beat an about 1,5 speed 1:1 style in my opinion. Note that i have ceased to accept the 0,5sec secret auto cast time as valid, after the recent changes. At least this is what i observe to happen with me and with the play style i use at the moment, i don't care if the 0,5 cast time applies in other cases, it doesn't apply to the play style i describe above.

It's not like discovering electricity, it doesn't need much thought or researching in my opinion. Of course i may be wrong.

In the log you mention, you have 120-69 (it's not a 87-49 ike you mention, you didn't include Nb of crits), meaning a 1,74:1 ratio. The haste effects you had were 4x QS and 2x Rapid Fire.

Look at my log (click me), i have 110-81, meaning a 1,36:1 ratio.
A lot closer to 1:1 due to 6xQS, 4x Drums of Battle, 3x Haste 2x Berserking, 1x Rapid Fire and 1x Bloodlust.

In a few words, this new thing that we do is a variation of the strict 1:1, converting it to a free style non-strict 1.x:1, favoring steady shot and thus using it more than auto shot and trying to be hasted for the max possible duration, so as to use a fast and tight hasted 1:1 for as much as possible. And during being unhasted, we maintain a high amount of shots per sec (should be relatively close to 1/sec) trying to get more procs of our Ashtongue trinket and more DPS, due to favoring the harder hitting steady.

It might seem strange that while we don't want to use the classic 1:1 steady-auto style, we actually try to be hasted for the max possible amount of time and slide to a hasted 1:1 for the max duration possible. But it's not strange, as in my opinion it is like that (when the situtation concerning weapon speed, trinket use, steady dmg, is like i state above):

strict 1:1 hasted style > 1.x:1 new free style > strict 1:1 classic unhasted style
#2796SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Azulor
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
Hmm I can somehow confirm that.
Here is a WWS log of Yesterdays BT run. I used the makro posted in my previous reply and was abled to stand and nuke the whole fight.
The Makro was spammed by simple "buttonmashing" without scripts as fast prax's one.

Teron Gorefiend

In this fight we get a ratio steady/Auto = 87/49 with one missed auto and one missed steady.

So it tends to 2:1 in this fight.

Has anybody found similar results in his WWS logs?
YES! I reported on this a week ago in two posts. Let me add that in these tests I used a Logitech MX Revolution mouse with unlocked wheel mapped to the macro for very fast spamming


[Hunter] Beast Mastery Bible

http://elitistjerks.com/620136-post397.html

DPS may still increase with 2:1 over 1:1, not sure of that. But 3:2 with KC viable would be optimal. WTB macro that does this.
#2797SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
It would appear it is the failure of the Kill Command that is stopping the auto shots and it may be that using the script to spam the macro so quickly actually magnified the problem. I can provide the raw combat logs to anyone that would like to see them.
So would you be able to run the same tests again without the KC in the macro? Is it possible that removing KC would up DPS even further (even over the loss of KC damage)?
#2798SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
So would you be able to run the same tests again without the KC in the macro? Is it possible that removing KC would up DPS even further (even over the loss of KC damage)?
Yes, I can try again with the pet attacking but Kill Command removed but I wan't really testing DPS, just trying to see if KC is stopping Auto shots (which appears to be the case). Aggro may be a problem however. I was about 20% over my pet at the end of each mana bar when fighting the Servant of Sevine but the pet should be able to hold the mob long enough to get a good data set.

I would also like to try it using a /castrandom for Kill Command to see if that removes the You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet. which may clear up the problem.
#2799SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Howitzer
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
Yes, I can try again with the pet attacking but Kill Command removed but I wan't really testing DPS, just trying to see if KC is stopping Auto shots (which appears to be the case). Aggro may be a problem however. I was about 20% over my pet at the end of each mana bar when fighting the Servant of Sevine but the pet should be able to hold the mob long enough to get a good data set.

I would also like to try it using a /castrandom for Kill Command to see if that removes the You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet. which may clear up the problem.

Considering your KC is hindering auto shots in some cases I would automatically assume that removing its use would increase DPS since #1 - autoshots occur much more often than every 6 seconds and #2 - KC crits sometimes don't even exceed the damage of 1 non-crit autoshot.
#2800SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Considering your KC is hindering auto shots in some cases I would automatically assume that removing its use would increase DPS since #1 - autoshots occur much more often than every 6 seconds and #2 - KC crits sometimes don't even exceed the damage of 1 non-crit autoshot.
I also need to test this firing the macro at 2 or 3 times a second rather than 20 times a second to find out if the speed I was sending the requests was magnifying the problem.
#2801SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnar
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
It would appear it is the failure of the Kill Command that is stopping the auto shots and it may be that using the script to spam the macro so quickly actually magnified the problem. I can provide the raw combat logs to anyone that would like to see them.
I think that's what's happening.

I use a 1:1 rotation via manual weaving, using auto, steady, and kill command. I wait until auto-shot starts casting (~.4-.1 sec before it fires), then use KC and immediately after steady-shot. I use Legionkiller with no haste gear (aside from procs).

For the past two weeks, I've been noticing an issue where KC lights up as available, I hit it to use it, and I get a "You Fail to Cast Kill Command" error.

2/5 21:26:48.609 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2213.
2/5 21:26:49.531 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 913. (54 blocked)
2/5 21:26:49.640 Quick Shots fades from you.
2/5 21:26:50.265 Doom Blossom 's Shadow Bolt hits you for 1953 Shadow damage.
2/5 21:26:50.484 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 954.
2/5 21:26:51.500 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 915.
2/5 21:26:52.671 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 988.
2/5 21:26:52.859 You fail to cast Kill Command: Another action is in progress.
2/5 21:26:54.421 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/5 21:26:54.640 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2161.
2/5 21:26:55.281 You gain Haste.
2/5 21:26:55.359 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 1035.
2/5 21:26:56.437 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2107.
2/5 21:26:57.312 Mune 's Kill Command crits Teron Gorefiend for 1001.
2/5 21:26:57.453 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 907.
2/5 21:26:58.390 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 911.

4 auto shots, 5 steady shots, when it should be 5/5. The auto-shot that's supposed to go off while I'm trying to cast KC doesn't. I can't think of any other reason beyond KC failing to cast (I still don't know why, it's within 6 sec of the crit), and stopping that auto-shot.
#2802SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Praxx
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
4 auto shots, 5 steady shots, when it should be 5/5. The auto-shot that's supposed to go off while I'm trying to cast KC doesn't. I can't think of any other reason beyond KC failing to cast (I still don't know why, it's within 6 sec of the crit), and stopping that auto-shot.
Is it possible that trying to fire KC while the auto shot is in the .5 sec cast time kills them both?

Based on your log it looks like you should have seen an auto shot around 21:26:53.480 which makes the combat log look like this.


2/5 21:26:48.609 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2213.
2/5 21:26:49.531 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 913. (54 blocked)
2/5 21:26:49.640 Quick Shots fades from you.
2/5 21:26:50.265 Doom Blossom 's Shadow Bolt hits you for 1953 Shadow damage.
2/5 21:26:50.484 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 954.
2/5 21:26:51.500 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 915.
2/5 21:26:52.671 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 988.
2/5 21:26:52.859 You fail to cast Kill Command: Another action is in progress.
2/5 21:26:53.480 ***missing auto shot***
2/5 21:26:54.421 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/5 21:26:54.640 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2161.
2/5 21:26:55.281 You gain Haste.
2/5 21:26:55.359 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 1035.
2/5 21:26:56.437 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2107.
2/5 21:26:57.312 Mune 's Kill Command crits Teron Gorefiend for 1001.
2/5 21:26:57.453 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 907.
2/5 21:26:58.390 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 911.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/08/08 at 6:54 PM. Reason: additional analysis
#2803SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
It could simply be the order you guys have the lines in your macro as well. I've been using the following macro for a few weeks now without any problems:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath

I bound that key to mousewheel down and set the left tilt of my mousewheel to "cruise down" in my logitech application. This spams the macro about 10 times a second.
#2804SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3chaintroll
I have been using the macro that has been suggested in this thread. Every now and then I get a message saying "another action is already in progress" when I spam the macro rapidly. After this happens the Esc key won't work anymore. When I see the message popping up a 2nd time the Esc key works again. Has anyone else experienced this behavior and if so, found a way to fix this?

The macro I use is:

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Before that I used this script and had the same thing happening:
/cast Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
#2805SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Gadget
I am noticing this ESC-doesn't work issue permanently in SSC. Because I only noticed it at Vashj, I thought she may be bugged. For me, only relogging helped, as far as I could tell.

I also notice there quite often that Feed Pet does not work. I get an error message like "invalid target" or "Spell not learned" (or similar, I am using a German client). Again, only relogging helps.
#2806SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dalakroth
Originally Posted by chaintroll View Post
I have been using the macro that has been suggested in this thread. Every now and then I get a message saying "another action is already in progress" when I spam the macro rapidly. After this happens the Esc key won't work anymore. When I see the message popping up a 2nd time the Esc key works again. Has anyone else experienced this behavior and if so, found a way to fix this?

The macro I use is:

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Before that I used this script and had the same thing happening:
/cast Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
I've noticed the same using that macro, it seems to be related to Kill Command. Sometimes my KC seems to try and activate when it's not available and it gets 'stuck'. Until it's cleared by actually using it on a mob I can't press Escape, feed my pet, mend pet, apply misdirection, etc.

It's extremely inconvinient, it happened the other night on Kael when I was supposed to MD Capernian to our lock tank and wiped the raid because I wasn't able to apply it.
#2807SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Neulztan
My guild just killed Archimonde last week, I was lucky and got the [Bristleblitz Striker]. I'm currently using the 3:2 rotation. Now this question struck my mind: Would I benefit from collecting haste gear, or should I keep it to a minimum? Or should I just throw away my new bow and continue using WSR with a 1:1 rotation?
Armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
#2808SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khassandra
Originally Posted by chaintroll View Post
I have been using the macro that has been suggested in this thread. Every now and then I get a message saying "another action is already in progress" when I spam the macro rapidly. After this happens the Esc key won't work anymore. When I see the message popping up a 2nd time the Esc key works again. Has anyone else experienced this behavior and if so, found a way to fix this?

The macro I use is:

/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Before that I used this script and had the same thing happening:
/cast Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
I've been having this issue for awhile with my macro. Blizzard says its an issue with Auto Shot that also affects wands. Someone yesterday suggested reordering the macro and so far its worked for me - no more Auto Shot getting stuck so far. Not sure if its a permanent fix as I haven't had any extended fights yet but so far so good. I moved the Kill Command line down below both shot casts:

/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#2809SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3crmnl
Hi everyone,

I am a t6 raiding bm hunter and have been struggling to get the 3:2 macro working lately. I have the archi bow with an unhasted rotation @ 2.17 seconds.

The macro I'm using is as follows:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I have approximately 180-200 ms on average. When spamming the macro sometimes I'll fall into a nice ss-a-ss-ss-a-ss-a-ss-ss-a-ss-a etc however the majority of the time I'll end up getting multiple steadies in a row or follow a ss-ss-a-ss-ss-a-ss-ss-a-ss-ss-a-ss-ss-a etc which I know doesn't give much benefit over the 1:1 rotation.

To spam the macro I use autohotkey so I've been able to play around with how many times the button is being hit per second. Ive been trying everything from 20-4 a second without being able to find a sweet spot.

Any help with how to get the proper 3:2 rotation to fall into place for the majority of the time would be much appreciated.

TIA.
#2810SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Daemous
Auto Shoot bug

I've landed in this bug a few times. I use a 1:1 spam macro with Kill Command *before* Steady Shot. There is an interaction with Kill Command that halts all normal white auto shots from occurring.

/console reloadui will not fix the issue.
Quitting and restarting will fix the issue.
I believe getting a new crit with your pet alive and then executing the Kill Command will clear the problem.

Removing KC from the macro seems to remove the problem. Although spamming KC in another way may just move the problem around.
#2811SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3oreoleo
I have the same problem, got Bristleblitz recently, never had luck on WSR for 6+ months...
I also can't get a 3:2 rotation.
#2812SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Olgas
Originally Posted by Dalakroth View Post
I've noticed the same using that macro, it seems to be related to Kill Command. Sometimes my KC seems to try and activate when it's not available and it gets 'stuck'. Until it's cleared by actually using it on a mob I can't press Escape, feed my pet, mend pet, apply misdirection, etc.

It's extremely inconvinient, it happened the other night on Kael when I was supposed to MD Capernian to our lock tank and wiped the raid because I wasn't able to apply it.
Yes, there is a definite bug with Kill Command that was introduced when they made the macro changes in the last patch.

I experience it all the time -- and it is miserable. I even tried switching to my old shot rotation and the bug still shows up, although not quite as frequently. There are now a ton of posts on the WoW forums complaining about this bug. According to many of these posts, this Kill Command lockup bug can occur even if you are not using a macro.

I believe this bug may also be the one that is causing the blocked Auto Shots. It is certainly causing my macro to not fire Kill Command, even when it is clearly ready to go.

Until they fix this bug, I'm afraid that all of the testing that is being done here regarding the effectiveness of the new macro rotation won't be reliable at all.
#2813SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3rs834
My guild was just able to clear ZA this past weekend; we havent really focused much on it at all. Being the only hunter in the group, the helmet of Hexlord and bow off Zul'jin basically defaulted to me. Both of these items have armor penetration stats on them. I am unsure of whether to stick with my current gear, or gem and enchant the new gear. So my question is, how does stacking armor penetration scale versus stacking haste? And how do they both compare to just using the T5 instance loot?
#2814SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khassandra
Originally Posted by Olgas View Post
Yes, there is a definite bug with Kill Command that was introduced when they made the macro changes in the last patch.

I experience it all the time -- and it is miserable. I even tried switching to my old shot rotation and the bug still shows up, although not quite as frequently. There are now a ton of posts on the WoW forums complaining about this bug. According to many of these posts, this Kill Command lockup bug can occur even if you are not using a macro.

I believe this bug may also be the one that is causing the blocked Auto Shots. It is certainly causing my macro to not fire Kill Command, even when it is clearly ready to go.

Until they fix this bug, I'm afraid that all of the testing that is being done here regarding the effectiveness of the new macro rotation won't be reliable at all.
If your macro is anything like this:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame: Clear()

try moving the two shot lines together and put KC on the bottom. I was having the bug all of the time and someone else suggested doing that. I tried it and haven't had a single lock up since. This is what is working for me now:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame: Clear()
#2815SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
g-man
Originally Posted by Daemous View Post
I've landed in this bug a few times. I use a 1:1 spam macro with Kill Command *before* Steady Shot. There is an interaction with Kill Command that halts all normal white auto shots from occurring.

/console reloadui will not fix the issue.
Quitting and restarting will fix the issue.
I believe getting a new crit with your pet alive and then executing the Kill Command will clear the problem.

Removing KC from the macro seems to remove the problem. Although spamming KC in another way may just move the problem around.

To confirm, getting a new crit with your pet alive and then executing the Kill Command will clear the problem. While this is not optimal, I have used this technique (if you can call it that) to clear the issue several times now. Depending on the situation, it is much faster/easier than restarting.

Last edited by g-man : 02/11/08 at 12:07 PM.
#2816SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnar
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
Is it possible that trying to fire KC while the auto shot is in the .5 sec cast time kills them both?

Based on your log it looks like you should have seen an auto shot around 21:26:53.480 which makes the combat log look like this.


2/5 21:26:48.609 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2213.
2/5 21:26:49.531 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 913. (54 blocked)
2/5 21:26:49.640 Quick Shots fades from you.
2/5 21:26:50.265 Doom Blossom 's Shadow Bolt hits you for 1953 Shadow damage.
2/5 21:26:50.484 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 954.
2/5 21:26:51.500 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 915.
2/5 21:26:52.671 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 988.
2/5 21:26:52.859 You fail to cast Kill Command: Another action is in progress.
2/5 21:26:53.480 ***missing auto shot***
2/5 21:26:54.421 You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet.
2/5 21:26:54.640 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2161.
2/5 21:26:55.281 You gain Haste.
2/5 21:26:55.359 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 1035.
2/5 21:26:56.437 Your Steady Shot crits Teron Gorefiend for 2107.
2/5 21:26:57.312 Mune 's Kill Command crits Teron Gorefiend for 1001.
2/5 21:26:57.453 Your Auto Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 907.
2/5 21:26:58.390 Your Steady Shot hits Teron Gorefiend for 911.
It's possible. Something is causing KC to go haywire. Best case is you miss an auto-shot as in the above log. Worst case is having your UI lock up as others have described.

Since I don't use a macro, I can tell you that it's not specifically macro related. Getting a crit and activating KC will reset it. I insert KC right before I start casting steady-shot, within the auto-shot cast time. Based on what others reported, moving KC to after steady-shot is cast might fix the problem. I'll try weaving like that on this week's run.

@rs834: Cheeky's Spreadsheet in the Hunter Spreadsheets in Development thread. Learn it, love it.
#2817SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3toga
+1

Originally Posted by g-man View Post
To confirm, getting a new crit with your pet alive and then executing the Kill Command will clear the problem. While this is not optimal, I have used this technique (if you can call it that) to clear the issue several times now. Depending on the situation, it is much faster/easier than restarting.
I have also been able to "reset" the bug by doing just what is described above.
#2818SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
I havent raided for almost three months now. Will spec BM for the first time in ages on wednesday and will have a few hours to run tests with Wolfslayer vs S3 gun using 3:2 rotation which I believe beats 1:1 after all reading all the posts about the comparisons.

My question is that how does haste items change 3:2's dps? Say.. Would belt of the black eagle be better than shadow-walker's cord with 3.0 speed weapon?
#2819SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
IMy question is that how does haste items change 3:2's dps? Say.. Would belt of the black eagle be better than shadow-walker's cord with 3.0 speed weapon?
As we don't yet have a really sold model for the 3:2 macro you'll have to test and see. Different people are reporting different results using the 3:2 macro. My own testing with a 3.0 speed weapon yields a 1:2 Auto:Steady rotation pretty much 100% of the time I have no other haste effects. Others say they always see the 2:3 Auto:Steady ratio in those circumstances.
#2820SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
I guess its time to go old school and just run 2x 30 min tests in Blasted Lands to average out IotH procs with both belts after finding out which gun is better. :|
#2821SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hunterlin
Actually "kill command bug" is part of wider bug. I have got same thing happen with rapid fire. Auto shot may interrupt rapid fire cast and after that rapid fire button stays active and auto shot inactive until you press rapid fire again.
(This can be cleared by using rapid fire again)

One more bug:
/cast rapid fire
/use bloodlust brooch
/cast steady shot
In most cases casts steady without activating rapid fire, but in 3-4 tries I can get rapid fire off. Bloodlust brooch is used in first press without glitches. Before 2.3.2 this macro did work perfectly.

I assume that rapid fire can be activated only if no casts are in progress, including auto shot. This means that to activate rapid fire we need to make pause to be sure that auto shot cast animation is complete and cast rapid fire only in idle time ( as if we had time to wait between casts ).
#2822SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Omegatron
I will only post this as far as my experience. If you macro kill command or not, KC "if" kill command goes off as a monster/mob or what ever you want to call it, IF it dies, it will bug out. Solution. Cast Kill Command again.

That is your solution. The Bug will seem to make it "appear" you cannot not autoshot. (If you click the auto shot hotbar, if you click the macro hotbar it is a moot point, if using the same macro as me)

How does one get out of autoshot lock? Cast a spell. If the only spell is locked is KC your the other spells should work arcane shot or steady shot.. Once the KC comes up make sure it "procs" that fixes the bug. If KC locks on you, you other spells work, and yes KC works. Keep using the macro. Worst case your KC doesn't go off in raid, but your steady or arcane or multishot did, not to mention any auto shot you wanted. In short if KC is bugged you can get off all your shots aside KC, and when KC goes off, and you spam it or click it Bug is gone.

Using

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Yes its a bug, but no reason to panic or complain about. Fix, just cast spell again. I know this isn't what most hunters want to know as a answer. I am just telling you, this is the easiest way to fix it. It is not perfect, but it fixes the problem.


I looked at some of the post before me. I think all you posted is true. But I am talking practical raid use of a macro. Its a bugged macro, but its hardly a bother in raids.

Last edited by Omegatron : Yesterday at 3:35 AM.
#2823SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hunterlin
Problem may appear like in last night raid, when it bugs between attempts on boss. This bug prevents not only autoshot but also feeding of pet until stuck cast is completed. It gives messages like "invalid target" when trying to feed pet while kill command is stuck. Most of spells does work, like you can ressurrect pet, just can not feed him while bugged.
#2824SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ivaldi
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
Yes its a bug, but no reason to panic or complain about.

...

But I am talking practical raid use of a macro. Its a bugged macro, but its hardly a bother in raids.
As was mentioned you cannot feed your pet. You cannot MD. If you have this happen and your pet dies, your pet comes back gimped at 75% damage (I'm a BM so that's a big deal, he does say 25% of my total damage, so now I'm doing 10% less damage...if my math is right), AND I can't MD. When this happens I go in search of critters, sometimes I find them, other times I am simply gimped.

I will be running my next 25 man with KC out of the macro entirely, hopefully my DPS doesn't drop too much. I also have the can't turn off autoshot problem, which can be a problem when FD is not ready and I'm bordering on overcoming the tank's threat. I have to run around to keep auto from firing.

Yes it's a bug, yes there is reason to panic and complain.
#2825SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Glaurong
I posted a solution, two posters after me posted solutions.

Move the kill command line down in your macro, to after the Steady Shot line.

Easy fix.
#2826SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Praxx
I had some time this weekend to do more testing on the DPS of the 1:1 vs. 3:2, macro ordering and spam speed.

Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
So would you be able to run the same tests again without the KC in the macro? Is it possible that removing KC would up DPS even further (even over the loss of KC damage)?
Ran the testing looking at the DPS not just the number of shots. It looks like the 3:2 is better than 1:1 even with it stepping on auto shots.

Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
I would also like to try it using a /castrandom for Kill Command to see if that removes the You fail to cast Kill Command: You can't do that yet. which may clear up the problem.
Tested and the DPS dropped over the standard /cast Kill Command macro.

Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
I also need to test this firing the macro at 2 or 3 times a second rather than 20 times a second to find out if the speed I was sending the requests was magnifying the problem.
Tested firing the macro 3 times a second and the DPS dropped over the 3:2 fast spam.


All tests were done using a script to fire the macro 20 times/sec except 3:2 with Kill Command (slow) which was done 3 times/sec.
Testing was done using no haste gear other than 15% quiver.
Testing was done with [Well Crafted Long Bow] and [Rough Arrow].

Results 
(code field used to maintain alignment)

Rotation                      Time in combat  Shots  Total Damage  DPS     Normalized Damage  Normalized DPS  Ratio s:a
3:2 with Kill Command         16:21           948    727,596       741.69  540,535            551.00          5.44:2
1:1 with Kill Command         16:55           1000   718,376       707.76  537,989            530.04          1.95:2
3:2 with Kill Command Random  18:22           965    770,908       699.55  564,811            512.53          6.18:2
3:2 with Kill Command (slow)  18:52           1002   763,264       674.26  563,131            497.47          3.65:2
3:2 no KC                     17:02           996    672,505       641.70  503,482            480.42          3.56:2

Damage was normalized using the average non-crit number for each attack type.  All damage and DPS numbers include pet damage.

Averages
Attack            Damage
Auto Shot hits    239.61 
Steady Shot hits  367.90 
Bite Hits         131.28 
Gore Hits          80.04 
Kill Command Hits 271.19 
Pet Hits          131.95

The following macros were used in testing.

3:2 - with kill command
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

1:1 - with kill command
#showtooltip
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=target/1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

3:2 - with kill command on random
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

3:2 - no kill command
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Reordering the macro seemed to avoid the auto shot lock up that people have been getting. I did not experience any lock ups during all of the testing.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/12/08 at 4:25 PM. Reason: formating
#2827SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Maturin
Stuck macro

I've tried moving the Kill Command line to the bottom of my macro, and it still hangs up just as often. Here has been my experience using two basic macros:

Using this one I get a 2:1 Steady/Auto rotation when spammed very quickly (mousewheel).

/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

Using this one I get a stable 1:1 Steady/Auto rotation.

/castsequence Steady shot, !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

Here are my results. Both macros work great on Dr. Boom. I get very predictable shot rotations using the Gladiator's Crossbow. As soon as I start fighting mobs, after about 3 kills I get the "ability not ready" message when I spam the macro. It seems to happen more frequently using the 2nd /castsequence macro.

Now for the crazy part. The way I've managed to fix it is I keep both macros on my bar, and just switch. When one doesn't work, I click the other and my shots start up again. Then when that one fails, I can go back to the other one. Riddle me that, Batman.
#2828SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Praxx
Originally Posted by Maturin View Post
I've tried moving the Kill Command line to the bottom of my macro, and it still hangs up just as often. Here has been my experience using two basic macros:

Using this one I get a 2:1 Steady/Auto rotation when spammed very quickly (mousewheel).

/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

Using this one I get a stable 1:1 Steady/Auto rotation.

/castsequence Steady shot, !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
The only difference I can see between your macros and mine is the following line on the end.

/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Perhaps try adding that to the end of your macros and see if that fixes the problem? It would be very strange if it does but...
#2829SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Maturin
I'll give that a try tonight. Praxx, were you using the immortal mobs in Blasted Lands for your tests? I can shoot Dr. Boom till I'm blue in the face and never have a problem, it's only when my pet tries (and possibly fails) to do a KC that things go wonky.

I'm trying to get a 1:1 macro working that incorporates KC and Lightning Breath, and doesn't bug out on me in the middle of a raid. My macro with LB actually seems to fail more, it's like LB can cause the same issue as KC, and putting it in the same macro doubles the failure risk.

Going to try a version of your 1:1:

#showtooltip
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence reset=target/1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Is there any reason to use /castrandom vs /cast for those single line commands? I thought there was only a difference when you put multiple abilities after it - for example:

/castrandom Kill Command, Lightning Breath

I thought the above should randomly do either each time that macro was used, compared to:

/cast Kill Command
/cast Lightning Breath

I thought that macro would try to do KC and LB, and either being unavailable wouldn't affect the other. Sorry if my understanding of these is noobing up the joint, but I'm finding some conflicting info on how the game interprets these.
#2830SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnar
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
Results 
(code field used to maintain alignment)

Rotation                      Time in combat  Shots  Total Damage  DPS     Normalized Damage  Normalized DPS  Ratio s:a
3:2 with Kill Command         16:21           948    727,596       741.69  540,535            551.00          5.44:2
1:1 with Kill Command         16:55           1000   718,376       707.76  537,989            530.04          1.95:2
3:2 with Kill Command Random  18:22           965    770,908       699.55  564,811            512.53          6.18:2
3:2 with Kill Command (slow)  18:52           1002   763,264       674.26  563,131            497.47          3.65:2
3:2 no KC                     17:02           996    672,505       641.70  503,482            480.42          3.56:2

Damage was normalized using the average non-crit number for each attack type.  All damage and DPS numbers include pet damage.

Averages
Attack            Damage
Auto Shot hits    239.61 
Steady Shot hits  367.90 
Bite Hits         131.28 
Gore Hits          80.04 
Kill Command Hits 271.19 
Pet Hits          131.95
Praxx, in those tests, you're getting a ratio of 3:1 steady/auto.

Looking at your tests as far as shots:

Run 1: 948 shots in 981 sec, .966 shots per sec.
Run 2: 1000 shots in 1015, .985 shots per sec.
Run 3: 965 shots in 1102, .876 shots per sec.
Run 4: 1002 shots in 1132, .885 shots per sec.
Run 5: 996 shots in 1022, .974 shots per sec.

Based on your attacks with the bow, steady out-damages auto by a fair margin. For most raiding hunters, they come in pretty even (my auto is actually slightly higher). So if you assume that auto damage = steady damage, only the shots per second matter. In that case, your 1:1 rotation, run 2, did the best, although your 3:2 fast spam with and without KC (runs 1 and 5) are both close behind.

This does seem to differ, though, with people's results of being able to get more total shots off in a given amount of time with a 3:2 rotation. That, and your 3:2 rotation is coming through as 5.44:2. My guess is that you're spamming the macro so fast that it doesn't allow time for the auto-shots to get through. Could it be that the magic spam amount for the macro is somewhere between 3 and 20 times a second?
#2831SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
All tests were done using a script to fire the macro 20 times/sec except 3:2 with Kill Command (slow) which was done 3 times/sec.
Nice work.

Why did you choose to only spam the 3:2 macro with KC at 3 times per second? The reason I ask is I use the 3:2 macro but have my N52 repeat it with every .10 seconds or .25 seconds (not sure which one I have it set to at the moment).

Is there a DPS loss by spamming too fast? I run with about 200-250ms latency.

Edit - I think I may have answered my own question. The first 3:2 KC was 20 times/sec while the second 3:2 KC (slow) test was 3 times/second? Do I have that correct?
#2832SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
Nice work.

Why did you choose to only spam the 3:2 macro with KC at 3 times per second? The reason I ask is I use the 3:2 macro but have my N52 repeat it with every .10 seconds or .25 seconds (not sure which one I have it set to at the moment).

Is there a DPS loss by spamming too fast? I run with about 200-250ms latency.

Edit - I think I may have answered my own question. The first 3:2 KC was 20 times/sec while the second 3:2 KC (slow) test was 3 times/second? Do I have that correct?
If our understanding of what's actually going on server-side is correct, by going faster you risk entering the "Window of Clobber" that exists between the end of a Steady Cast and the beginning of an Auto Cast. But going too slow you risk dead space in your rotation.

The key seems to be finding the perfect frequency rate of spam, and then hoping your instantaneous latency doesn't have too much jitter.

These tests were done with just 1 weapon speed. I'd love to see them replicated with 2.8, 2.9, and 3.0 speed weapons. I think the shot damages are pretty meaningless, it's the ratios and frequency that will tell the full story. I can give you pretty exact average damages per shot based on your gear, but I have no way of properly simulating the shot patterns the Steady-spam macro produces.
#2833SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Praxx
Originally Posted by Maturin View Post
I'll give that a try tonight. Praxx, were you using the immortal mobs in Blasted Lands for your tests? I can shoot Dr. Boom till I'm blue in the face and never have a problem, it's only when my pet tries (and possibly fails) to do a KC that things go wonky.
Yep, the Servant of Sevine in the blasted lands.

Originally Posted by Maturin View Post
Is there any reason to use /castrandom vs /cast for those single line commands? I thought there was only a difference when you put multiple abilities after it - for example:

/castrandom Kill Command, Lightning Breath

I thought the above should randomly do either each time that macro was used, compared to:

/cast Kill Command
/cast Lightning Breath

I thought that macro would try to do KC and LB, and either being unavailable wouldn't affect the other. Sorry if my understanding of these is noobing up the joint, but I'm finding some conflicting info on how the game interprets these.
I was using the /castrandom as a followup to a previous test to find out if it would help with KC stepping on Auto Shot. You should be OK using the /cast.
#2834SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
That just cant be right.. 3 times a second instead of 20 times a second causes 67 dps difference? I find that very hard to believe.
#2835SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Praxx
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
Based on your attacks with the bow, steady out-damages auto by a fair margin. For most raiding hunters, they come in pretty even (my auto is actually slightly higher). So if you assume that auto damage = steady damage, only the shots per second matter. In that case, your 1:1 rotation, run 2, did the best, although your 3:2 fast spam with and without KC (runs 1 and 5) are both close behind.
I am assuming you mean they are close on a per shot basis as opposed to total damage. I am going to keep the logs from my next dungeon run to use actual weapon damage to normalize then take a look at the numbers. I assume the variance was caused by the weapon I was using being such low damage.

Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
This does seem to differ, though, with people's results of being able to get more total shots off in a given amount of time with a 3:2 rotation. That, and your 3:2 rotation is coming through as 5.44:2. My guess is that you're spamming the macro so fast that it doesn't allow time for the auto-shots to get through. Could it be that the magic spam amount for the macro is somewhere between 3 and 20 times a second?
That could be and I am sure latency figures into it (I normally run around 90). Perhaps .25 and .20 spam tests are in order.
#2836SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Praxx
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
Edit - I think I may have answered my own question. The first 3:2 KC was 20 times/sec while the second 3:2 KC (slow) test was 3 times/second? Do I have that correct?
Yep
#2837SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
That just cant be right.. 3 times a second instead of 20 times a second causes 67 dps difference? I find that very hard to believe.
I don't. Even if you experience no jitter in latency that's the difference of 0.28s delay in the slower one. When using that over a 1.5s rotation thats ~20% more dead space potentially. That means for a Hunter who does 1,000 personal DPS, you just lost 200 of it.

Chalk this up as exhibit 453 as to why shot weaving is a fucking stupid mechanic.

(Note, my math is probably far too simplified above, but the general idea is the same.)
#2838SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
I guess its time to buy a G15 keyboard then unless I can make a semi decent macro with this G9 mouse.
#2839SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Praxx
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
These tests were done with just 1 weapon speed. I'd love to see them replicated with 2.8, 2.9, and 3.0 speed weapons.
I actually started looking up different speed weapons last night. If anyone knows of a low DPS 3.0 speed ranged weapon other than the [Sniper Rifle] let me know.

My worry is doing another 20+ hours of testing with weapon speeds / rotations / spam rates and then having 2.4 hit and blow all of the work out of the water. edit: Can't believe I just said that to Cheeky.

My guess is the ideal spam rate is .25 or .2

I can always parse the logs at work. hmm...

Last edited by Praxx : 02/12/08 at 6:42 PM. Reason: Attitude correction
#2840SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Trickdaemon
How does the key repeating work on the g15 keyboard? Do you just hit the key once and it continues or what? I have one stashed away somewhere, wondering if this would help.

Thanks for your help
#2841SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
I made a macro that clicks a button every 25ms for 40 times in a row so every time I click the macro button it clicks !cast macro 40 times per second. I clicked that roughly 2-4 times a second manually during the tests.

In short.. Conclusion from two 10 min tests = 80 dps higher with the clicking macro compared to normal finger smashing.

Will make a bit more accurate tests tomorrow.

Oh, I used 3.0 speed weapon and had 40-45ms.
#2842SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Praxx
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I think the shot damages are pretty meaningless, it's the ratios and frequency that will tell the full story. I can give you pretty exact average damages per shot based on your gear, but I have no way of properly simulating the shot patterns the Steady-spam macro produces.
I assume we would also need to know the frequency of KC in the tests. What variables would you be looking for?

Weapon speed
2.8
2.9
3.0

Macro
1:1
3:2

Spam speed
.25 s
.2 s

Anything I am missing?
#2843SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ivaldi
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I posted a solution, two posters after me posted solutions.

Move the kill command line down in your macro, to after the Steady Shot line.

Easy fix.
Did this a long time ago, no go.

My current macro looks like this, will be doing some testing tonight:
#showtooltip Steady Shot 
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0 
/cast !Auto shot 
/cast Steady shot 
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command 
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() 
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
#2844SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stinkerbelle
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post

Run 2: 1000 shots in 1015, .985 shots per sec.

Pratt, it's great you're going to all this (much appreciated) trouble to test the efficiency of various 3:2 methods.

To compund on the above contradiction between expected and actual results--i.e. all of your 3:2 macro mashes netted less shots/time than your 1:1 spam--it seems that even the output of the 1:1 is lower than the theoretical optimum.

Theoretically you'd be looking for 1.022 shots per second: 2/((2.7/(1.15*1.2))

Whichs is about 4% higher than 0.985 shots/second, a small yet significant difference. Perhaps it's due to the way time in combat is calculated. Or maybe it's connected to whatever is causing the 1:1 to net slightly more autos than steadies. Is it because you're starting with auto shot, and in most cases ending with it as well? Or might it be due either to running oom, or even KC interference with Steady Shot?
#2845SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pyros
Originally Posted by Trickdaemon View Post
How does the key repeating work on the g15 keyboard? Do you just hit the key once and it continues or what? I have one stashed away somewhere, wondering if this would help.

Thanks for your help
You can set it up for different modes, either a mode that repeat as long as you keep it pressed, or a toggle mode(press once and it repeats until you press again).
#2846SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3yarikh
Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
You can set it up for different modes, either a mode that repeat as long as you keep it pressed, or a toggle mode(press once and it repeats until you press again).
Anyone know if this is possible with an external program? Or basically: is there hope for those of us without a g15/n52?
#2847SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Praxx
Originally Posted by Stinkerbelle View Post
Pratt, it's great you're going to all this (much appreciated) trouble to test the efficiency of various 3:2 methods.

To compund on the above contradiction between expected and actual results--i.e. all of your 3:2 macro mashes netted less shots/time than your 1:1 spam--it seems that even the output of the 1:1 is lower than the theoretical optimum.

Theoretically you'd be looking for 1.022 shots per second: 2/((2.7/(1.15*1.2))

Whichs is about 4% higher than 0.985 shots/second, a small yet significant difference. Perhaps it's due to the way time in combat is calculated. Or maybe it's connected to whatever is causing the 1:1 to net slightly more autos than steadies. Is it because you're starting with auto shot, and in most cases ending with it as well? Or might it be due either to running oom, or even KC interference with Steady Shot?
I do start with an auto shot and try to end with a steady in the 1:1 but there is also some stepping on the auto by KC I think. I would always end the fight with an ice trap so it is not an OOM problem.

I think with the 3:2 auto is getting stepped on by KC much more frequently.
#2848SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Early
Is Blizz actually going to fix this crap? Have they even acknowledged it is a problem? Last I checked they haven't. It is doing the same lockups on the ptr so if something doesn't get changed we are going to have to live with this for a long time.This is really dumb mechanic for us and is something that needs to be fixed.
#2849SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Seven
Originally Posted by yarikh View Post
Anyone know if this is possible with an external program? Or basically: is there hope for those of us without a g15/n52?
I did this with my Logitech MX510 Mouse. I put the macro on "mousewheeldown". When I hold down the "fast scroll down key" (it is situated right next to the wheel) it keeps spamming the macro. I can't precicely say how often per second and if it is possible to adjust that rate by changing the scrollspeed in Windows. This trick should work with any Mouse similar to the one I use .I'm forced to use the built in Windows Vista Driver so maybe original Drivers provide more customisation.

Last edited by Seven : 02/13/08 at 7:53 AM. Reason: spelling error
#2850SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Docster
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
What I am going to do is start work on the original OP post of this thread and create a culmination of the information in the 100's of pages of this mega-post.
You're work are really appreciated - thank you!
#2851SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Belzi.ET
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I posted a solution, two posters after me posted solutions.

Move the kill command line down in your macro, to after the Steady Shot line.

Easy fix.
I don't think that this will work.

A long time, I had no problem with my macro at all, but the last Zul'Aman-Raid I experienced them for the first time.
After this, I thought about the circumstances and talked with my hunter-fellas.

If KC is available, you will cast it quite immediately with your macro. Now, there's a little gap between your KC-click and your pet performing KC. From all I saw, my macros only hangs, when my pet's target dies (or disappears) during this little time-gap (maybe affected by latency).

What happens now (just my thoughts):
- You are in some state of casting and therefore your auto-shot will be clipped until you leave that casting-state (this happens with a new successful KC).
- Your pet seems to be in some kind of combat. You cant feed it, but you should can (cause you aren't in combat). The WoW-Code prints a strange (or bad spelled) error-message ("You don't know this spell").

These thought are strengthen with my problems with KC. I never had problems during a running fight, only afterwards.

Sorry for bad spelling. English isn't my native language, so I have some problems in expressing my thoughts exactly.
#2852SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Maturin
More info on macro lockup

I spent a lot of time last night trying different macros, trying to make one fail repeatedly, and here is what I came up with.

Basic macro:

/castsequence !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath

I was using a Wind Serpent, and I think that becomes important shortly. Here is what happened:

Fighting flayers in Netherstorm.
Send in pet.
Spam macro via mousewheel.
Mob dies.
Macro never stops working in mid fight.

Switch to new target, send in pet, and spin the mouse wheel - I never start auto shots or steady shots. However, I can see my pet's LB ability flashing like crazy and going off whenever he has enough focus (it was off autocast). So the macro itself wasn't completely locked out, it just wouldn't restart the /castsequence part.

The only change I made was adding "reset=1" to the /castsequence macro, and it never failed again.

New Macro:

/castsequence reset=1 !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath

Something happens, probably related to how the mob dies & kill command as many people have suggested, and it locks out certain actions. If you're in the same situation as me and want to have a 1:1 steady/auto without locking up after every mob, try the above macro.
#2853SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Azulor
Originally Posted by Stinkerbelle View Post
Pratt, it's great you're going to all this (much appreciated) trouble to test the efficiency of various 3:2 methods.

To compund on the above contradiction between expected and actual results--i.e. all of your 3:2 macro mashes netted less shots/time than your 1:1 spam--it seems that even the output of the 1:1 is lower than the theoretical optimum.

Theoretically you'd be looking for 1.022 shots per second: 2/((2.7/(1.15*1.2))

Whichs is about 4% higher than 0.985 shots/second, a small yet significant difference. Perhaps it's due to the way time in combat is calculated. Or maybe it's connected to whatever is causing the 1:1 to net slightly more autos than steadies. Is it because you're starting with auto shot, and in most cases ending with it as well? Or might it be due either to running oom, or even KC interference with Steady Shot?
This is pretty important--none of Pratt's recent tests are actually close to 3:2, really. I actually think the reason has to do with haste, and this is consistent with what other folks have mentioned earlier.

A perfact 3:2 is very possible. I had a chance to go back and kill Morogrim for whatever reason and used a 3:2 macro with mousewheel spam, KC was used manually.

Azulor - WWS

My attack speed with haste gear is 2.1. (Note pet not merged here.) Also in all my Boom tests, getting 3:2 took some haste gear. Also some other folks have commented on this.

I just want us to keep in mind that haste gear may be an important ingredient in getting 3:2 and more total shots. Thanks for all the tests.
#2854SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Daemous
Originally Posted by Early View Post
Is Blizz actually going to fix this crap? Have they even acknowledged it is a problem? Last I checked they haven't. It is doing the same lockups on the ptr so if something doesn't get changed we are going to have to live with this for a long time.This is really dumb mechanic for us and is something that needs to be fixed.
I filed a bug about the hang-up. I included the exact macros which can cause the BUG. I got a stupid reply about them not supporting macros. I can understand them not touching bugs within macros. But clearly macros that can fubar the entire experience need to be addressed.
#2855SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Maturin View Post
I spent a lot of time last night trying different macros, trying to make one fail repeatedly, and here is what I came up with.

Basic macro:

/castsequence !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath

I was using a Wind Serpent, and I think that becomes important shortly. Here is what happened:

Fighting flayers in Netherstorm.
Send in pet.
Spam macro via mousewheel.
Mob dies.
Macro never stops working in mid fight.

Switch to new target, send in pet, and spin the mouse wheel - I never start auto shots or steady shots. However, I can see my pet's LB ability flashing like crazy and going off whenever he has enough focus (it was off autocast). So the macro itself wasn't completely locked out, it just wouldn't restart the /castsequence part.

The only change I made was adding "reset=1" to the /castsequence macro, and it never failed again.

New Macro:

/castsequence reset=1 !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath

Something happens, probably related to how the mob dies & kill command as many people have suggested, and it locks out certain actions. If you're in the same situation as me and want to have a 1:1 steady/auto without locking up after every mob, try the above macro.

Except using the /castsequence macro is a loss in DPS when compared to the 3:2 macro.
#2856SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Exbox
Ey, Howitz.

I was thinking for the OP...

When you compile everything, and start on your haste part, I think it would be wise to note that Autoshot has a .5 second cast, so too much haste stacking is actually just clipping at a point.

Eh. Haste is tooooo much on top of our tight rotations
#2857SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grymwish
Has anyone started to formulate an approx DPS increase/decrease per weapon speed with the 3:2 rotation? In other words, what I'm trying to determine is at what point does the increase in base damage given by a weapon of non-optimal speed become more of an increase to DPS than a 2.9 speed weapon of lower base damage. I've seen people play with the numbers but doesnt seem to be broken down into an equation that Ive seen yet (assuming a set 3:2 ratio).

For example: Arcanite steam pistol (87.2 dmg and 2.9 speed) vs. Bristleblitz Striker (95.8 dmg and 3.0 speed)

My thoughts would be, the equation needs to include:
the difference in the # of steady shots that can be shot in a set time
the RAP difference to figure up the average damage of a steady shot
the average difference in auto shot damage between the 2 tests
crit difference/ to hit difference
and probably more variables that I am missing

Unfortunately, I alone cannot get the equation to work right.
#2858SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Mattaos
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
I also have the can't turn off autoshot problem, which can be a problem when FD is not ready and I'm bordering on overcoming the tank's threat. I have to run around to keep auto from firing.
Striffing side to side will prevent autos, but another easier (and safer) method is to target your targets target. I have my G key bound to do this for several reasons...one being to instantly stop firing on a mob/boss to prevent aggro gain over the tank (if FD is on CD). This key bind helps also with quick MDs mid-fight. Just a thought to make raiding life easier to avoid having to run around to achieve the same effect.

Last edited by Mattaos : 02/13/08 at 1:57 PM.
#2859SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Azulor View Post
This is pretty important--none of Pratt's recent tests are actually close to 3:2, really. I actually think the reason has to do with haste, and this is consistent with what other folks have mentioned earlier.

A perfact 3:2 is very possible. I had a chance to go back and kill Morogrim for whatever reason and used a 3:2 macro with mousewheel spam, KC was used manually.

Azulor - WWS

My attack speed with haste gear is 2.1. (Note pet not merged here.) Also in all my Boom tests, getting 3:2 took some haste gear. Also some other folks have commented on this.

I just want us to keep in mind that haste gear may be an important ingredient in getting 3:2 and more total shots. Thanks for all the tests.
It's Praxx by the way and I was able to get very close to an exact 3:2 (3.07:2) in Dr. Boom testing. The results are linked in this post.

Trying to collect the data for the additional variables (spam rate, weapon speed and rotations) now. I don't use any haste gear except quiver and Serpent's Swiftness so the tests would be easy for others to replicate and easier for me to understand.

I would think there is an attack speed where one macro will be better than the other. Just trying to figure out what that number is.

A related question: Calculating my attack speed for a 2.7 spd weapon with quiver and SS would be 2.7/(1.15*1.2)=1.96 correct? Which would give me:

Weapon / Final
2.7 / 1.96
2.8 / 2.03
2.9 / 2.10
3.0 / 2.17
#2860SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by grymwish View Post
Has anyone started to formulate an approx DPS increase/decrease per weapon speed with the 3:2 rotation? In other words, what I'm trying to determine is at what point does the increase in base damage given by a weapon of non-optimal speed become more of an increase to DPS than a 2.9 speed weapon of lower base damage. I've seen people play with the numbers but doesnt seem to be broken down into an equation that Ive seen yet (assuming a set 3:2 ratio).

For example: Arcanite steam pistol (87.2 dmg and 2.9 speed) vs. Bristleblitz Striker (95.8 dmg and 3.0 speed)

My thoughts would be, the equation needs to include:
the difference in the # of steady shots that can be shot in a set time
the RAP difference to figure up the average damage of a steady shot
the average difference in auto shot damage between the 2 tests
crit difference/ to hit difference
and probably more variables that I am missing

Unfortunately, I alone cannot get the equation to work right.
I am working collecting the data for analysis to answer that very question. Cheeky and the others would be the math people, I am just the button pusher.
#2861SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
A related question: Calculating my attack speed for a 2.7 spd weapon with quiver and SS would be 2.7/(1.15*1.2)=1.96 correct? Which would give me:

Weapon / Final
2.7 / 1.96
2.8 / 2.03
2.9 / 2.10
3.0 / 2.17
That is perfectly accurate.
#2862SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Skislopr
@ praxx Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the white arrows [Rough Arrow] you are using produce results favoring the 3:2 shot rotation because weapon ammo is not factored into steady shot. However, you would be getting a large amount of dmg from your arrows in the 1:1 shot rotation. Would it not be better to use higher level arrows to get a better representation of the outcome in a raid setting when comparing the two shot rotations. Again, correct me if i am wrong.

Last edited by Skislopr : 02/13/08 at 4:17 PM.
#2863SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Skislopr View Post
@ praxx Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the white arrows [Rough Arrow] you are using produce results favoring the 3:2 shot rotation because weapon ammo is not factored into steady shot. However, you would be getting a large amount of dmg from your arrows in the 1:1 shot rotation. Would it not be better to use higher level arrows to get a better representation of the outcome in a raid setting when comparing the two shot rotations. Again, correct me if i am wrong.
Yes if we were looking at this from a DPS standpoint however, Cheeky will be able to calculate the DPS once the optimum shot cycle / ratio has been determined. This testing is to determine which variables give the greatest shot output.

Also, I need to use the lowest damage arrows and bow so my pet can hold aggro. I wouldn't want to try and gather the data from raids because of all the additional variables that would be thrown into the equation.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/13/08 at 4:47 PM. Reason: Clarity
#2864SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnar
Praxx, you could just give your pet 30-60 sec of building aggro time, then go to it with higher DPS bows is those are the only ones you have at the different speeds. Just figured that might be easier than finding low DPS speed weapons at those speeds.

Could you also include the number of KCs you got in each cycle? Thanks.


Skislopr: It may be easier to to think of Praxx's tests as finding the Shots Per Second of various cycles, at which point you can plug in your Damage Per Shot figures into each cycle and figure out your DPS. So ignore his damage numbers, only the shots / time value is important.
#2865SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Early
Yeah blizz has acknowledged that this is a problem and is going to fix it in 2.4.
WoW Forums -> 2.4 PTR known Issues List
#2866SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
Praxx, you could just give your pet 30-60 sec of building aggro time, then go to it with higher DPS bows is those are the only ones you have at the different speeds. Just figured that might be easier than finding low DPS speed weapons at those speeds.

Could you also include the number of KCs you got in each cycle? Thanks.
Not really a problem. I picked up these last night:

[Heavy Crossbow]
[Mithril Blunderbuss]
[Sniper Rifle]

I have been letting the pet beat on them for a bit before opening up then removing those pet attacks from the data.

I do plan to include the KC counts in the next round of data. I actually have that for the current data as well if you would like to see it but I plan on retesting the 2.7 spd weapon along with the others just to check my accuracy.
#2867SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Disarmonia
So I haven't raided in about 2 months and I'm pretty out of the loop as far as macros go now. Just wondering how I should go about making a new one with the newest UI changes. I have 3.0 speed bow, 2.14 with quiver and haste bracers(should probably replace). I have decent gear along with 4 piece T6 so generally my steady shot hits a little harder then my autos(I guess a 3:2 macro would be best?)
#2868SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Repus
Tonight on Teron i got 2512 dps but i feel like i could do more as i am using a 1:1 macro with a wind serpent would a 3:2 benefit me more?

Here is my WWS report Wow Web Stats

Also here is my armory The World of Warcraft Armory

Last edited by Repus : 02/14/08 at 1:56 AM.
#2869SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3crmnl
Reptus I've really looked at your kill and our kill and it makes no sense to me why our raids dps is so much lower. We have 1 more dps, a kill time of 4:06 compared to your 4:11, and I did 476k compared to your 361k. Our raids both did a total 4.9 mil dmg and we both had 99/100% presence time, what am I missing here?

Wow Web Stats our wws



After typing all that I realized your dps time was only 2:24 while mine was 4:06 and I didn't get ghosts so I looked for the shadow word:death debuff on your list but didn't see that either, so I guess I have to assume you died? Still having trouble understanding how thats possible'

Edit: Or possibly you waited until the last 2 mins or so of the fight to burn cd's and attempt the highest burst as opposed to sustained?
#2870SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Repus
No i did not die but that was a slow kill for us, we usually do alot better, and no i blow most of my cooldowns and such like bestial wrath at the beginning so i can pop it again for the last few percentages. Our kill was in the 2 minute range and we were flasked food buffed and everything to the max only thing we didnt have was darkmoon buff. The reason i didnt do as much damage is because my kill time was alot shorter then yours... almost 2x faster so therefor i wouldnt do as much damage as a 4 minute fight such as you did.
#2871SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3crmnl
hmm i wonder why your kill time says 4:11 then... o.O
#2872SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Girthbot
hmm i wonder why your kill time says 4:11 then... o.O
because you do not know how to read it right? you are looking at the full report and not the death



ive gotten 2270+ 2 weeks in a row on teron using a ravager and a 3:2 macro so thinking I should either try a 1:1 and ravager or 3:2 and a wind serpent with bite priority over LB. i think i could hit about 2400-2500 with my current setup on a perfect run but i know even more is possible.


has anybody tested these 4 scenarios?
ravager and 3:2
ravager and 1:1
windserpent and 3:2
windserpent and 1:1

if it is the windserpent what is the best setup prioritizing bite over LB? macro LB and let him auto cast bite? macroing both?
#2873SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Girthbot View Post
because you do not know how to read it right? you are looking at the full report and not the death



ive gotten 2270+ 2 weeks in a row on teron using a ravager and a 3:2 macro so thinking I should either try a 1:1 and ravager or 3:2 and a wind serpent with bite priority over LB. i think i could hit about 2400-2500 with my current setup on a perfect run but i know even more is possible.


has anybody tested these 4 scenarios?
ravager and 3:2
ravager and 1:1
windserpent and 3:2
windserpent and 1:1

if it is the windserpent what is the best setup prioritizing bite over LB? macro LB and let him auto cast bite? macroing both?
Don't even train Bite.
With Misery up, LB has better Damage/Focus and is a faster focus dump too.
#2874SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seven
I've tested on Najentus. Hopefully I can do the second Gorefiend test today. I'll take my ravager because I'm dissapointed of the WS.
Maybe it requires more crit than 30% to benefit from LB.

Cat and 3:2 macro with KC in the midlle
WS and 3:2 macro with KC at the end and LB after KC. (auto LB on)

DPS was about 305 vs. 312 in favor of the cat.

Raid Setup was a little different but group setup and gear was the same.

With Cat
steady : auto = 99 : 74 = 1,34

With: Windserpent
steady : auto = 113 : 81 = 1,4
#2875SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Trishelle
Testing

I just wanted to thank you all for the time and effort you have put into all of the testing, and also wanted to let you know that you have made it interesting enough for me that I have been doing a little bit of my own testing lately.

From the tests that I have ran, I am going to assume that a 3:2 rotation is not possible with a castsequence macro without having a loss of dps due to downtime waiting for cooldowns.

I was also wondering.. I use a ravager as my dps pet. Should I use a macro like the '/cast lightning breath' one used for WS for my pets gore ability? My pet seems to do about 225 or so (roughly) DPS when I am spec'd into 41/20/0 and using a 3:2 rotation with KC built in. Maybe if I took gore off of autocast it would improve my pets dps? Any response would be greatly appreciated.

And to the guy who was wondering about things dying or dissapearing..
If KC is available, you will cast it quite immediately with your macro. Now, there's a little gap between your KC-click and your pet performing KC. From all I saw, my macros only hangs, when my pet's target dies (or disappears) during this little time-gap (maybe affected by latency).
I think adding a [target=exists, nodead] might fix your problem. If it is what you think it is anyways.

Also I wanted to thank the person who suggested binding your dps macro to your mouse wheel! It is amazing!

Thanks guys! This site is the best.

EDIT: Was rereading and realized I missed a typo with my spec's numbers. Whoops!

Last edited by Trishelle : 02/14/08 at 7:56 AM.
#2876SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Azulor
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
It's Praxx by the way and I was able to get very close to an exact 3:2 (3.07:2) in Dr. Boom testing. The results are linked in this post.
Well, if I read that post correctly, you were using a 2.7 speed bow in those tests, which is fine of course---I should have specified that I've been using a 3.0 speed bow. And, to my point, in the data of yours I've seen with pet in combat, you're not that close to a 3:2.

If you were using a 3.0 bow on boom, then we have a further mystery, which is why some people require more haste effects to get 3:2 than others.


Also, @Glaurong, thanks for the suggestion for KC at the bottom, _however_ that doesn't work for me personally. I tested last night on trees in Skettis, as usual using my Logitech mouse with unlocked wheel. Had a perfect 2:1 rotation not 3:2 using the macro with KC. Sample size of 210 total shots (so 70 auto, 140 steady).

FWIW, what I am doing at the moment in raids is using Shift+Mousewheel mapped to a macro with no KC, then I have KC mapped to Shift+Spacebar. Not perfect by any means, but sort of seems to work.
#2877SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saryanne
Originally Posted by Early View Post
Yeah blizz has acknowledged that this is a problem and is going to fix it in 2.4.
WoW Forums -> 2.4 PTR known Issues List
Can somebody paste here what they said please? Can't access the WOW forums from work
#2878SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saryanne
I'm seeing some odd behavior on my toolbar when raiding, not able to reproduce it on DR Boom or on short fights. This ISN'T the KC lockup, I know what that is.

I'm using the "spam" macro, I also have the DST, a 2.9 speed bow (does it with my 2.7 too,) and IAOTH.

What happens is as I spam the macro my steady shot lights up (gold around it, like I'm using it,) but then goes off right away. As far as I can tell Steady Shot is not casting, I need to stop and hit the macro slowly. Now one would think I am hitting the macro to fast, but since many people use automated clickers doing 10 - 20 clicks a sec and I am manually clicking, I find that hard to believe.

Thoughts?
#2879SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Azulor View Post
Well, if I read that post correctly, you were using a 2.7 speed bow in those tests, which is fine of course---I should have specified that I've been using a 3.0 speed bow. And, to my point, in the data of yours I've seen with pet in combat, you're not that close to a 3:2.

If you were using a 3.0 bow on boom, then we have a further mystery, which is why some people require more haste effects to get 3:2 than others.
I was using the 2.7 speed weapon on Dr. Boom as well as the tests with the pet in combat. The point of the testing is to try and work out the effect of having the pet fighting with you. I am working on gathering data for 2.8, 2.9 and 3.0 speed weapons now.
#2880SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Demlar
From the official forums:

. 2.4 PTR known Issues List | 02/10/2008 03:03:41 PM EST
2.4 PTR known issues list.
As the 2.4 patch is still in development there are still issues that need to be resolved. This is a list of issues currently occurring on the 2.4 PTR that we are aware of and working to resolve. There is no need to report these issues here in the forums or via the in-game feedback tool.

UI
The new combat log is currently a work in progress bugs with the log should be held until we announce that it is ready for testing.

Using an instant ability after Steady Shot can lock out the use of Auto Shot.
Sometimes when Master Loot is enabled with a threshold above uncommon the Master Looter still has to assign uncommon Bind on Pickup loot.
Players are initially unable to loot any Bind on Pickup items with Master Loot on.

NPCs
Renaming Hunter pets disconnects the client.
Shattrath City Peacekeepers and Scryer Vault Guardians are missing from Shattrath City.
Gear conversion NPCs in Quel’danas are not fully implemented.
Madrigosa's flight path outside the Sunwell Plateau has unnatural movements.
The Hellfire Channelers in the Magtheridon encounter are not resetting properly.

Mac
Mac OSX 10.5.0 will corrupt the World of Warcraft application if it's approved individually to pass through a Firewall.
Mac OSX 10.5 is not playing back audible sounds over voice chat.

[ Post edited by Hortus ]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hortus
Blizzard QA
"Random does not mean fair, and past results do not influence future occurrences." - Corbenn
#2881SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnar
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I posted a solution, two posters after me posted solutions.

Move the kill command line down in your macro, to after the Steady Shot line.

Easy fix.
Only because it stops using Kill Command.

I ran Naj'entus last night with the following macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame: Clear()

And I had 2 KCs during the fight, over 3:16 minutes: Ragnar - WWS
Compared to the previous week, I had 5 KCs in 49 sec from manual weaving: Ragnar - WWS and 26 in 5:07 Ragnar - WWS also from manual weaving.

If you make the swap, and it seems to "fix" the KC bug for you, check to see if you're actually using KC.
#2882SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
Only because it stops using Kill Command.

I ran Naj'entus last night with the following macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame: Clear()

And I had 2 KCs during the fight, over 3:16 minutes: Ragnar - WWS
Compared to the previous week, I had 5 KCs in 49 sec from manual weaving: Ragnar - WWS and 26 in 5:07 Ragnar - WWS also from manual weaving.

If you make the swap, and it seems to "fix" the KC bug for you, check to see if you're actually using KC.
Glau - WWS

Expand everything, add KC hits, crits and misses for 32. For a 3'16" fight that is exactly one every 6 seconds.
#2883SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khassandra
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
Only because it stops using Kill Command.

...

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame: Clear()

...

If you make the swap, and it seems to "fix" the KC bug for you, check to see if you're actually using KC.
I use a macro almost identical to the above (mine clears the sound as well) and my KC activates almost constantly. And moving the KC cast line below the shot lines has cleared up the "stuck" bug for me completely, and I was getting it all the time before.
#2884SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Repus View Post
Tonight on Teron i got 2512 dps but i feel like i could do more as i am using a 1:1 macro with a wind serpent would a 3:2 benefit me more?

Here is my WWS report Wow Web Stats

Also here is my armory The World of Warcraft Armory
You are doing just about as good as you can. Something to keep in mind with Teron WWS' though. As your raid DPS goes up and your kills get shorter your DPS is more heavily weighted towards time you are spent under your cool downs. I compared you to a recent WWS of mine where I was going 1:1 as well.

Repus
81 - Autos Fired
1.92 - Time Between Autos
1604 - Average Auto Damage
835.417 - Auto Shot DPS

79 - Steadies Fired
1.97 - Time Between Steadies
1787 - Average Steady
907.107 - Steady Shot DPS


Glau
98 - Autos Fired
2.00 - Time Between Autos
1631 - Average Auto
815.296 - Auto Shot DPS

95 - Steadies Fired
2.06 - Time Between Steadies
1699 - Average Steady
824.757 - Steady Shot DPS

Even with a 3.0 speed bow and less haste gear your DST brings your average time between shots below mine.

As an aside, your raid is super heavy on physical DPS. If one of your hunters has SV gear you guys would be coming close to record kill times.
#2885SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Girthbot
If one of your hunters has SV gear you guys would be coming close to record kill times.
He just went back to BM. Might ask him to go back to SV for Sunwell.

Can't complain though when I have 3 FI's and a feral druid in group.
#2886SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orsraunia
Originally Posted by Azulor View Post
This is pretty important--none of Pratt's recent tests are actually close to 3:2, really. I actually think the reason has to do with haste, and this is consistent with what other folks have mentioned earlier.

A perfact 3:2 is very possible. I had a chance to go back and kill Morogrim for whatever reason and used a 3:2 macro with mousewheel spam, KC was used manually.

Azulor - WWS

My attack speed with haste gear is 2.1. (Note pet not merged here.) Also in all my Boom tests, getting 3:2 took some haste gear. Also some other folks have commented on this.

I just want us to keep in mind that haste gear may be an important ingredient in getting 3:2 and more total shots. Thanks for all the tests.
I've posted about haste some pages ago. In short:

1. there is no 2:1 or 3:2 rotation, it's not a rotation. Even the ratio is never a strict 2:1 or 3:2, if you get haste effects.
2. the steady-auto ratio is 1.x:1 and it depends on the number and kind of the haste effects you had in the combat. When the number and quality of the haste effects you got increases, x decreases (1.x:1 ratio).
3. The magic attack speed is about 1,87 for me, when it converts to 1:1 hasted. Maybe this number is not the same for all of us and it's something like 1,5-1,6 + latency, i don't know.

So, the goal (at least mine) is to try and get some haste effects going and be in a hasted 1:1 state for as long as possible. The shots per sec are about 1, the closer to 1 you are, the better you are doing.

(Talking about a BM hunter, with a 3.00 speed weapon)

P.S. All this research about the ideal number of spams per sec make me sad, i just wanted to note that for whatever it may worth.
#2887SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Seven
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
I've tested on Najentus. Hopefully I can do the second Gorefiend test today. I'll take my ravager because I'm dissapointed of the WS.
Maybe it requires more crit than 30% to benefit from LB.

Cat and 3:2 macro with KC in the midlle
WS and 3:2 macro with KC at the end and LB after KC. (auto LB on)

DPS was about 305 vs. 312 in favor of the cat.

Raid Setup was a little different but group setup and gear was the same.

With Cat
steady : auto = 99 : 74 = 1,34

With: Windserpent
steady : auto = 113 : 81 = 1,4
As I promised, here are the results for Gorefiend:

Itchy(Ravager) slightly out DPSes Scratchy(cat)
which confirms the results of the spreadsheet.
But I realy could'nt reconstruct the superiority of the windserpent ...

Shot ratios were:

KC in the Middle
119 : 68 = 1,75

KC at th end
120 : 83 = 1,45 (still no perfect 3:2, but getting more close to it)

So it seems that glaurongs tipp for KC drasticaly improves the auto clipping, at least in this encounter.

What I tried to do manualy was: When I saw KC firing at a Moment when Steady and KC went off at the near end of the autoshot cast, I released my "spamm it"-button for a little to see the autoshotcast begin. The rotation felt more fluently that way and almost no stadyshotcasts went off without autoshotcastbar running .
This was my personal !feeling!. Can anybody confirm that?

Last edited by Seven : 02/15/08 at 5:58 AM. Reason: Added passage.
#2888SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orsraunia
Originally Posted by Repus View Post
Tonight on Teron i got 2512 dps but i feel like i could do more as i am using a 1:1 macro with a wind serpent would a 3:2 benefit me more?

Here is my WWS report Wow Web Stats

Also here is my armory The World of Warcraft Armory
In the WWS log you have linked, your raid DPS appears to be 32k and the kill is a 251sec one. All have a 60-69% presence in this log, while only a shaman has a 100% one. I don't know what happened and if it was intentional, i am just pointing this out as a strange thing. I am not trying to imply that your DPS is not correct, it is correct judging by the average damage your steady-auto are doing. I am just pointing out this strange thing (presence) about your log and trying to imagine what you did. Maybe Voodoomoose send an elemental or something on teron while you were preparing and after teron reseted you went in ? I am just curious.

If you want to see the difference between what you are doing (1:1) and what you could be doing, compare with my log.

Teron, 1.36:1 - 2537dps - 1 shot/sec (click me)

110 steadies
81 autos
1.36:1 ratio
1 shot/sec

Comparing my haste effects to yours:

I have 1xQS and 1xDrums more than you and you have 3xHaste more than me.

All 3 of my haste gains are from DST, i didn't use any haste potions as i didn't have a shadow priest (and this is why i switch to illidan's bow after a certain point in the fight, loosing some dps) and my style of play drains a lot of mana.

So, in overall you were more hasted than me in this fight, your average steady and average auto damage is higher than mine (even though i got 5xDeadly Aim procs more than you, due to my style of play), you had 53 shots out of a total of 159 criting (0,33%) while i had 69 out of 191 (0,36%), the duration of the fight should be shorter for you (you have 6k more raid DPS than we do in this fight) than it is for me, a thing that makes your overall hasted time significantly more than mine and favors you over me, and still i did slightly more dps than you. This happened clearly and only because of my style of play, which is not the strict 1:1.

So, yes. If you start doing what i do, you'll see a good DPS increase.

And this brings us to something i had posted some pages ago, the 1.x:1 style of play (among other benefits) takes better advantage of haste effects. I can't prove it in theory (calculating based on what we currently assume valid about our mechanics), but it's obvious in my opinion from my short analysis above, comparing your log to mine, comparing your strict 1:1 to my 1.x:1.

In my opinion, we should stop over-researching and over-testing, like trying to find the ideal number of spams per sec. This seems to me as spoiling the game, but that's just me.

Additionally, we might be led to wrong conclusions and discover a "bug" in the new way the client-server "communication" works after the changes some weeks ago, or something that some people may think that is a bug and bring to us a so much unneeded and unfair nerf.

I think that this matter is over discussed and over analyzed, a lot of people (including me) have expressed their opinions, none has to prove anything to anyone, we can all go back to doing what we think is best for us and have fun.

I don't know exactly how this sounds to you, i hope it sounds the right way and you take my post as well-intended, because it really is.

Note that English is not my mother language and i can't always find the right words.
#2889SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Repus
You have to click on Teron Gorefiend Death instead of looking at the full report

Thanks for your help Orsaunia
#2890SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
In my opinion, we should stop over-researching and over-testing, like trying to find the ideal number of spams per sec. This seems to me as spoiling the game, but that's just me.
This is EJ sir, over-researching and over-testing is what happens here. If it isn't intended behavior and gets fixed, so be it. No point in trying to hide your new toy, hoping it wont get nerfed.
#2891SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Exbox
Orsraunia, Do you mind me asking what rotation you use?

Im guessing a 3:2 Until hasted, and you're hasted most of that fight, So you drop to a 1:1... do you continue the 1:1 even when hasted below 1.5?
#2892SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
P.S. All this research about the ideal number of spams per sec make me sad, i just wanted to note that for whatever it may worth.
Why is that? Wouldn't it be useful to know if pressing the macro to fast can hurt your DPS because of auto shot clipping?
#2893SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3brisgalad
2.7 weapon

been wondering why so many people are opting for 2.7 weapon speed in a BM build. sorry if im a noob =(
#2894SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
orsraunia
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
This is EJ sir, over-researching and over-testing is what happens here. If it isn't intended behavior and gets fixed, so be it. No point in trying to hide your new toy, hoping it wont get nerfed.
I am not trying to hide anything, i've made several posts about it. I just express my concerns about the possibility of us missing the point and trying to make tests with an accuracy of the level of like 50ms, while the current client-server communication mechanics possibly can't give us that kind of accuracy and thus we might be led to wrong conclusions.

I know to appreciate the value of all different kinds of tests that have been performed by various people. But in my opinion in some cases, when the need is to determine for example which is the best among 2 styles of play, the result can be attained without numerous tests that need the accuracy of the level of 50ms, but with a few simple thoughts and a quick browsing through some logs. That's my opinion and i don't expect you to agree with, you are entitled to having your own opinion, as i am entitled to having my own.

Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
Why is that? Wouldn't it be useful to know if pressing the macro to fast can hurt your DPS because of auto shot clipping?
Yes, it would be useful. I am not judging people that do that or saying that you shouldn't do that. It just makes me sad and i wanted to share that.

Originally Posted by Exbox View Post
Orsraunia, Do you mind me asking what rotation you use?

Im guessing a 3:2 Until hasted, and you're hasted most of that fight, So you drop to a 1:1... do you continue the 1:1 even when hasted below 1.5?
It's not really a 3:2, but lets say yes.
Yes, the goal is to be hasted for as long as possible during the fight and favor steady shot over all other shots.
Under haste it is 1:1 and that is the goal, a hasted 1:1 with a lot of BT trinket procs. I got 3,5 per minute in that log.
My attack speed rarely drops below 1,5 and if it drops below 1,5 (without bloodlust on) it's still not low enough to worth letting only autos and the occasional multi/arcane to fire, so 1:1 is still good.
When i have Bloodlust on, GCD is also reduced so i am still good for 1:1 on most cases.

EDIT: Thanks Lactose for correcting me, that had slipped from me. Seems like i have to rethink what i am doing when affected by Bloodlust and DST procs.

We are trying to manage haste effects, so as to be chained and not have all of them at the same time. The goal is to be hasted for as long possible, not as much possible.

So far, only once (while on Akama) my attack speed dropped low enough to make it worthwhile (to my best judgment) to halt steadies for a while and use arcane/multi and let the autos fly.

While i am on this subject, i think that having an addon that would display our attack speed in a small frame at any given time, could come in handy to those of us that like to "play" with non-permanent haste. Especially in those situations that the haste effects were used with a wrong timing and we want to look fast at our attack speed without losing focus, in order to react accordingly and not lose dps.

Last edited by orsraunia : 02/16/08 at 4:41 AM.
#2895SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
When i have Bloodlust on, GCD is also reduced...
Bloodlust/Heroism has no effect on the global cooldown.
#2896SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3draxon0012
The macro

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame: Clear()

When bound to mouse scroll wheel, in all seriousness makes me drop 20 FPS when scrolled. I'm on a very decent dual core rig running at 2.3ghz with 2 8800GTX Ultras in SLI.

I guess its just the client not being able to handle that many instructions per second.

Is there any fix for this?
#2897SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3abron
Hi folks,

a lock from our raid asked us beastmasters wether a melee-heavy or a caster-heavy group would take more profit from FI, so if more small hits and crits or less bigger hits and crits would scale better. To be honest i'm not able to answer this question because i don't know if critdamage scaling talents may push the profit of FI e.g. Excuse my bad english. Thanks in advance.
#2898SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Griffen
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
While i am on this subject, i think that having an addon that would display our attack speed in a small frame at any given time, could come in handy to those of us that like to "play" with non-permanent haste. Especially in those situations that the haste effects were used with a wrong timing and we want to look fast at our attack speed without losing focus, in order to react accordingly and not lose dps.
I do think the quartz cast/auto shot bar lists attack speed in the left "upper" corner of the cast bar, but it's not very accurate as it lists my WSR at a 2.0 auto shot speed, while it's listed as 1.93 (I think) in the character sheet.
#2899SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kyrre
Hey guys, I have been dwelling on this 3:2 rotation and all the information associated with it for quite a while, and I have come to a few conclusions.

I would like to share my thoughts and get some feedback if possible, thank you.


These are basically the rules I have come to:

---Get your attack speed between 1.8 and 2.0, and spam the 3:2 macro. Any slower than 2.0 and it will become a 2:1 macro, thus losing you dps. (3:2 is 6 steadies 4 autos in 9 seconds, 2:1 is 6 steadies 3 autos in the same time)

---The only thing better than this is a 1:1 rotation at faster than 1.8 speed.

These are basic facts, right?

---This means with a 3.0 speed weapon, simply using quiver + serpents swiftness will not work. (2.17 speed is too slow for the 3:2 rotation, it falls into a 2:1 rotation instead). With Hawk up, we can turn this into 1.89 speed, but that is only half of the time so not really a good solution.

---To obtain a quicker than 2.0 speed simply using quiver and serpent's swiftness, we need a weapon of base speed 2.7. (Wolfslayer can achieve a nice 3:2 rotation without haste)



These aren't exact numbers, but are numbers that work nonetheless..

---To turn a 2.9 weapon into a perfect 3:2 rotation, we need 90 haste. To turn a 3.0 weapon into a perfect 3:2 rotation we need around 150 haste.




So, the conclusion I came to was that I am to use 3:2 with a weapon speed of 1.99 ideally (Don't want to waste too much gear getting that speed to 1.85 for example, what would be the point? You'll see better returns using the gear for agi.) At under 1.80 speed, when using rapid fire or something, just use 1:1.

Have I got this right?









A side note on the improved aspect of the hawk talent:
3.0 speed weapon + 90 haste
3:2 rotation at 1.98 speed -----hawk proc----> 1:1 rotation at 1.72 speed.
5 shots in 4.5 seconds 5.23 shots in 4.5 seconds

2.9 speed weapon + 150 haste
3:2 rotation at 1.99 speed ----hawk proc----> 1:1 rotation at 1.73 speed.
5 shots in 4.5 seconds 5.2 shots in 4.5 seconds

Take from that what you want.


Thanks for your time and thoughts, I hope i've finally started making sense to myself.
#2900SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saryanne
Originally Posted by Kyrre View Post
Hey guys, I have been dwelling on this 3:2 rotation and all the information associated with it for quite a while, and I have come to a few conclusions.

I would like to share my thoughts and get some feedback if possible, thank you.


These are basically the rules I have come to:

---Get your attack speed between 1.8 and 2.0, and spam the 3:2 macro. Any slower than 2.0 and it will become a 2:1 macro, thus losing you dps. (3:2 is 6 steadies 4 autos in 9 seconds, 2:1 is 6 steadies 3 autos in the same time)

---The only thing better than this is a 1:1 rotation at faster than 1.8 speed.

These are basic facts, right?

---This means with a 3.0 speed weapon, simply using quiver + serpents swiftness will not work. (2.17 speed is too slow for the 3:2 rotation, it falls into a 2:1 rotation instead). With Hawk up, we can turn this into 1.89 speed, but that is only half of the time so not really a good solution.

---To obtain a quicker than 2.0 speed simply using quiver and serpent's swiftness, we need a weapon of base speed 2.7. (Wolfslayer can achieve a nice 3:2 rotation without haste)



These aren't exact numbers, but are numbers that work nonetheless..

---To turn a 2.9 weapon into a perfect 3:2 rotation, we need 90 haste. To turn a 3.0 weapon into a perfect 3:2 rotation we need around 150 haste.




So, the conclusion I came to was that I am to use 3:2 with a weapon speed of 1.99 ideally (Don't want to waste too much gear getting that speed to 1.85 for example, what would be the point? You'll see better returns using the gear for agi.) At under 1.80 speed, when using rapid fire or something, just use 1:1.

Have I got this right?









A side note on the improved aspect of the hawk talent:
3.0 speed weapon + 90 haste
3:2 rotation at 1.98 speed -----hawk proc----> 1:1 rotation at 1.72 speed.
5 shots in 4.5 seconds 5.23 shots in 4.5 seconds

2.9 speed weapon + 150 haste
3:2 rotation at 1.99 speed ----hawk proc----> 1:1 rotation at 1.73 speed.
5 shots in 4.5 seconds 5.2 shots in 4.5 seconds

Take from that what you want.


Thanks for your time and thoughts, I hope i've finally started making sense to myself.
I'm not strong enough on this subject to say that you are wrong, however, the testing I have seen shows that may not be correct. 2.9 weapons actually seem to do the most DPS using this new macro.

My own testing has led to me this conclusion as well. I have both the WSR and Sunfury, also have the IAOTH and the DST. My results have been erratic enough to get really frustrating, but I'm leaning towards using my Sunfury all the time. I just got a new keyboard that will allow me to program my spam rate, I'm going to see what that fixes.
#2901SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saryanne
Originally Posted by abron View Post
Hi folks,

a lock from our raid asked us beastmasters wether a melee-heavy or a caster-heavy group would take more profit from FI, so if more small hits and crits or less bigger hits and crits would scale better. To be honest i'm not able to answer this question because i don't know if critdamage scaling talents may push the profit of FI e.g. Excuse my bad english. Thanks in advance.
I'm not the huge math guy like a lot of people here, but I think it scales about the same for everybody. FI should be up pretty much constantly, so a 3% increase should be up across the board. So 300k damage gets turned into 309k no matter how you get there.

Now doing a quick think on the subject, if the Hunter is undergeared (low crit procs for KC crits,) or the hunter is not very good (not hitting KC all the time,) leading to FI not being up the majority of the time; this COULD lead to melee or "fast" dps classes being better. They are less likely to have FI run out in the middle of a cast / attack.

In a "good" enviroment though, it should seem to be about the same.
#2902SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Exbox
I usually find I'm lucky to get in our melee groups
they are as follows (usually):

Feral Druid
Enhance Sham
Rogue
Rogue
Fury Warrior

If any of those are missing, I usually get planted in there because on any given fight melee usually do more in our guild than the ranged.

I think it's an objective thing. The 3% should be thrown on whichever group will be doing the most dps on a given boss.
#2903SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saryanne
I set the groups up for us and try and build them like this.

Melee
Rogue
Rogue
DPS Warrior
Enhc Shammie
Ret Pally

Ranged One
BM Hunter
BM Hunter
MM (or sv or BM, depending what we have) Hunter
Feral Druid
Shadow Priest

Ranged Two
Moonkin
Ele Shammy
Mage
Lock
Mage or Lock

If we only have 2 Hunters (about 50% of the time,) I may put a Resto Shammy in there for totems or a mage or Lock, they like the FI procs.

I try to Optimize the Hunter DPS, which in turn due to FI procs helps out whoever else is with us.
#2904SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.34G63
2 piece T5, scoring a shadow priest, keeping mend pet up, and knowing when to pull your pet out to steal some chain heals --- all if you keep your pet on Azgalor.
#2905SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Melkunie
The best way to keep your pet alive and FI active on Azgalor is pretty simple, just stick your pet on the doomguards. I always ask if i can be in the group who is nearest to the doomguard tank and voila. The only fight where i break my 4/5 tier6 bonus is illidari council. I think using 2/5 tier5 there makes life so much easier.

Alot of the fights are just a matter of doing them alot and get experience in how to keep the pet alive.

Last edited by Melkunie : 02/16/08 at 7:11 PM.
#2906SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
I ran two tests, one with 37+31 haste (shadow-walker's cord + band of devastion) and the other with belt + band of the eternal champion. With 68 haste, quiver, 5/5 SS and viper I got almost perfect 3:2 rotation (246 steady, 162 auto). This resulted in 44 dps advantage to the higher haste setup. With a bit more haste I'd imagine 3:2 rotation to be solid.

In raid situation with AotH procs and drums the difference gets a bit smaller due the 1:1X or 1:1 rotation use especially if you have DST but its still higher dps to use 70-75 haste to get a good 3:2 rotation when not hasted.

It's probably better for a dwarf to use Al'Ar gun and two pure dps items instead of Vengeful gun + two haste items but as you might have guessed, I have allready DE'd that piece "crap" long ago...

I had 40-55ms during the tests.
#2907SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sienna
I did test the old castsequence macro vs the new !Auto Steady macro on Dr. Boom, lost 100 dps with the new one. 984 dps with castsequence vs 890 dps with new one. I didn't blow any cooldowns, both tests were done with Aspect of Hawk and Dragonspine Trophy. I have 2.04 auto cooldown with 41/20/0 S3 longbow and 105 passive haste.
#2908SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kwellthân
Is there an easy way to print this entire thread, from page 1 - 117 or do you have to go through them page by page pressing "print"?
#2909SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kyuki
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I did test the old castsequence macro vs the new !Auto Steady macro on Dr. Boom, lost 100 dps with the new one. 984 dps with castsequence vs 890 dps with new one. I didn't blow any cooldowns, both tests were done with Aspect of Hawk and Dragonspine Trophy. I have 2.04 auto cooldown with 41/20/0 S3 longbow and 105 passive haste.
Did you blow two mana pools, and that's it?

Did you ever look at streaks, lucky crits, a unlucky miss, or whatever?

If you're gonna do proper testing you better blow atleast a few more mana pools for each type of macro before you conclude anything.
A friend of mine did the same as you did, and stated the exact same thing as you did - I urged him to redo it, and get some proper testing done, and you know what? The !auto macro came out with 5%~ more dps .
#2910SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Maynard
Originally Posted by Kwellthân View Post
Is there an easy way to print this entire thread, from page 1 - 117 or do you have to go through them page by page pressing "print"?
I don't know if you can print all of them, but you could go in to your options under your user CP and set posts per page to 50 to cut back.

Personally I'd just wait for the bible to be posted shortly.
#2911SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ivaldi
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
both tests were done with Aspect of Hawk and Dragonspine Trophy.
Why and why? Please don't use randomly proc'ing abilities/items and tell us it was a fair comparison.
#2912SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
Why and why? Please don't use randomly proc'ing abilities/items and tell us it was a fair comparison.
To get real results you have to use them but to do so your tests need to be at least 1000 shots per test. =)
#2913SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.34G63
Even then you may get an unlucky string. I usually only DPS test when I don't have any procs, or when I do, shoot over 3,000 arrows on multiple occasions. Then it's down to comparing how many procs I got on each test, finding the similar ones, and comparing those.
#2914SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sienna
Originally Posted by Kyuki View Post
Did you blow two mana pools, and that's it?

Did you ever look at streaks, lucky crits, a unlucky miss, or whatever?

If you're gonna do proper testing you better blow atleast a few more mana pools for each type of macro before you conclude anything.
A friend of mine did the same as you did, and stated the exact same thing as you did - I urged him to redo it, and get some proper testing done, and you know what? The !auto macro came out with 5%~ more dps .
I didn't blow one mana pool only. I restarted the tests after mana was gone. In multiple tests the old macro worked better for me. I'll do more and more tonight. The result I posted was just the average.
#2915SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ivaldi
Anything that procs will radically throw your DPS off. Granted if they are off you won't be looking at actual DPS, but the idea is to look at the ratio between the two tests, not the magnitude. Ideally you should be look at total shots for each type, multiply each by average damage for that shot (should be the same for both tests) and divide the total by time right?
#2916SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zolneos
Hey everyone, I just picked up a wind serpent and i have a question. The current macro i use is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !auto shot
/castsequence reset=3 !Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] !Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(

Do i add something to this? Or should i keep it the way it is, thanks in advance!
#2917SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hunterlin
Originally Posted by Zolneos View Post
Hey everyone, I just picked up a wind serpent and i have a question. The current macro i use is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !auto shot
/castsequence reset=3 !Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] !Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(

Do i add something to this? Or should i keep it the way it is, thanks in advance!
Yes, add after kill command

/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Lightning Breath

and turn autocast of it off. This is fix for WS behaviour that he sometimes tries to cast breath from range and loses DPS while walking to range and back.
#2918SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Exbox
Orsraunia, at what speed do you start your 1:1'ing at, because just drums isnt enough to do it, or do you wait for a combination of things?
#2919SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
KlaDie
Hello,
I started a WWS-Log for my first time, with a DPS of 2021 @ Teron. According to the Logs 2 Pages ago, I wonder about a few things and kindly ask for some tipps / hints, what am I doing wrong. (sorry, it is in German)

Wow Web Stats (Hunter: Klausdieter)

BM 41-20-0, Pet: Cat without Bite
Rotation should be a 1:1.5 Auto/Steady
The Raid was planned for most Melee-Support. So I "only" got a Shadow (100% of the time), a MM-Hunter (100%) and a feral (~30% alive). There was no Shaman in the Group and no SV-Hunter in the Raid. I drank 2 Haste-Potions.


What I realy realy wonder about, are the following things:

- Trinket: I had 5 Proccs of "Deadly Aim" in a fight-durance of 3M11s, which means 191seconds. The 5 Proccs will have a maximum Uptime from 5times x 8secs = 40Sec. That means, the procc was active for ~20% off the fight. So I get a more RAP from (275rap : 20% of the time = 55RAP) 55Rap, which is not that much.... In my opinion, I should take the "Berskers Call" and the Trinket from KaelThuzad with 150Rap agains Undead / Demons instead next time.

- My Pet just had 2 (!) Frenzies in the hole fight, even I talented 4/5 @ Frenzy, which means, that the Pet has a 80% chance to get frenzy after a critical strike. In a normal fight, the Frenzy ist nearly allmost "up". How can this happened? The Pets learned "Cobra Reflexes" of course. (I hope, I didnt made misstakes translating German / English)

Many many thanks for your help. Even I was satisfied with 2k+ dps, that shouldnt be my maximum. Thats why I asked for your help.

Thanks.

Last edited by KlaDie : 02/18/08 at 12:04 PM.
#2920SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Belzi.ET
Originally Posted by KlaDie View Post
*snip*
- My Pet just had 2 (!) Frenzies in the hole fight, even I talented 4/5 @ Frenzy, which means, that the Pet has a 80% chance to get frenzy after a critical strike. In a normal fight, the Frenzy ist nearly allmost "up". How can this happened? The Pets learned "Cobra Reflexes" of course. (I hope, I didnt made misstakes translating German / English)
*snip*
WWS just logs the amount of buffs applied. Re-applied buffs (like frenzy) aren't counted.
So, in fact your pet lost frenzy just once during the fight and therefore applied the buff a second time.
#2921SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KlaDie
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
WWS just logs the amount of buffs applied. Re-applied buffs (like frenzy) aren't counted.
So, in fact your pet lost frenzy just once during the fight and therefore applied the buff a second time.
Oh, sorry - Didnt mentioned that. Well, than its quite ok - Many Thanks Belzi!
#2922SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3peterk0
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
WWS just logs the amount of buffs applied. Re-applied buffs (like frenzy) aren't counted.
So, in fact your pet lost frenzy just once during the fight and therefore applied the buff a second time.
And the same applies for Deadly Aim.
#2923SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
KlaDie
Originally Posted by peterk0 View Post
And the same applies for Deadly Aim.
I also noticed that for DeadlyAim. I think, there will be no other way, than count the Proccs "for myself". - Im not quite sure, if "Recap" will count this for every new procc oder like the WWS-Counts

Last edited by KlaDie : 02/18/08 at 4:24 PM.
#2924SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I'd love to see them replicated with 2.8, 2.9, and 3.0 speed weapons.
As requested.

I went back and did the testing firing 1000 shots with 4 different weapon speeds, 2 rotations, 2 spam rates, with and without KC.

The only two columns that may need some explanation are "KC?" and "Spam Spd". KC notes if Kill Command was included in the macro for the given test. Spam Spd is the number of times/sec the macro was fired for that test.

Weapon  Shot           Spam     Attack count  Combat    Shots       Ratio    Avg
Speed   Rotation  KC?   Spd     AS   SS   KC    Time     /sec       SS:AS    Lag
2.7     3:2       Y      20    263  737  164    1062    0.942     5.6 : 2     57
2.7     3:2       Y       5    339  662  156    1071    0.935     3.9 : 2     88
2.7     3:2       N      20    368  633    0     990    1.011     3.4 : 2     71
2.7     3:2       N       5    409  592    0    1006    0.995     2.9 : 2     90
2.7     1:1       Y      20    503  497  159    1038    0.963    0.99 : 1    135
2.7     1:1       Y       5    502  498  159    1039    0.962    0.99 : 1    136
2.7     1:1       N      20    504  496    0    1020    0.980    0.98 : 1    141
2.7     1:1       N       5    505  495    0    1050    0.952    0.98 : 1    106
2.8     3:2       Y      20    276  724  165    1016    0.984     5.2 : 2     75
2.8     3:2       Y       5    341  668  156    1072    0.941     3.9 : 2     65
2.8     3:2       N      20    349  651    0    1012    0.988     3.7 : 2     71
2.8     3:2       N       5    399  601    0    1034    0.967       3 : 2     91
2.8     1:1       Y      20    504  496  169    1097    0.912    0.98 : 1     97
2.8     1:1       Y       5    506  494  174    1159    0.863    0.98 : 1    121
2.8     1:1       N      20    501  499    0    1080    0.926       1 : 1    121
2.8     1:1       N       5    508  492    0    1122    0.891    0.97 : 1    119
2.9     3:2       Y      20    254  747  161    1072    0.934     5.9 : 2     64
2.9     3:2       Y       5    291  701  166    1182    0.839     4.8 : 2     83
2.9     3:2       N      20    336  665    0    1038    0.964       4 : 2     89
2.9     3:2       N       5    378  623    0    1106    0.905     3.3 : 2     84
2.9     1:1       Y      20    506  494  188    1211    0.826    0.98 : 1    104
2.9     1:1       Y       5    508  493  164    1181    0.848    0.97 : 1     97
2.9     1:1       N      20    505  495    0    1147    0.872    0.98 : 1     97
2.9     1:1       N       5    508  491    0    1130    0.884    0.97 : 1    105
3.0     3:2       Y      20    259  742  157    1056    0.948     5.7 : 2     77
3.0     3:2       Y       5    282  718  161    1134    0.882     5.1 : 2     94
3.0     3:2       N      20    318  683    0    1044    0.959     4.3 : 2     66
3.0     3:2       N       5    374  626    0    1053    0.950     3.3 : 2    102
3.0     1:1       Y      20    505  495  174    1141    0.876    0.98 : 1     86
3.0     1:1       Y       5    501  499  173    1112    0.899       1 : 1    108
3.0     1:1       N      20    506  494    0    1146    0.873    0.98 : 1     97
3.0     1:1       N       5    503  498    0    1102    0.908    0.99 : 1     88
The Excel data file can be found here. The file also contain links to the raw combat logs for each test.

Weapons used
[Well Crafted Long Bow]
[Heavy Crossbow]
[Mithril Blunderbuss]
[Sniper Rifle]

Macros used
3:2
#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

1:1
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

The only haste gear I used was 15% quiver/pouch. No trinkets were used during testing and I kept AoTV up the whole time.


Trivia
Shots fired: 32,010
Time in combat: 9h 38m
Damage done: 24,087,820
Mana used: 2,323,440
Warlocks Killed: 1

Last edited by Praxx : 02/19/08 at 9:56 AM. Reason: 1. Added link to data file 2. Added Avg Lag to data 3. cleaned up table
#2925SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
2.9	3:2	N	20	336	665	0	1038	0.964	   4 : 2
2.9	3:2	N	5	378	623	0	1106	0.905	 3.3 : 2
Especially the first one makes me wonder what's killing your rotation. The macro sends requests in "unlucky" situations which ends up with a couple 2:1 cycles in a row?

What kind of average latency do you have?

I know 2.9 without haste is 2.10 and not 2.08 which I use (3.0 + 68 haste) but I dont get results anywhere near this.

If I remember right I got only slightly worse ratio by using spam speed of 100 instead of 25.

I guess there is a huge difference between those 0.02 seconds if your latency is 40-50..
#2926SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3shaanah
There as 2.4 comes with the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes
I guess most of the BM hunters will be replacing Bristleblitz /black bow with it
2.8 speed should be perfect so we might as well call this new xbow WSR v2
Ofcourse it will be needed some live testing to prove that it is actualy bettter then the two bows above but I am
almost 100% sure it is.
#2927SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Seven
Originally Posted by shaanah View Post
There as 2.4 comes with the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes
I guess most of the BM hunters will be replacing Bristleblitz /black bow with it
2.8 speed should be perfect so we might as well call this new xbow WSR v2
Ofcourse it will be needed some live testing to prove that it is actualy bettter then the two bows above but I am
almost 100% sure it is.
I was also curious about that Xbow, so i typed the stats into cheekys spreadsheet. 3:2 spammed makro and 1:1 on quickshots

Surprise surprise: It got 5 Dps gain in my current gear compared to Bristleblitz.
BUT! It dramaticaly depends on the Rest of your gear how the Xbow performs! As I put in more SW gear (Chest and Ring / no haste on them)
the Bristleblitz got equal or even 15 DPS better. I've got to do some more tests to find out which stat influences the usefullness of such a fast weapon.
F.e. Quicker speed => less Steadys => reduced benefit from Ashtoungue Talisman and 4x T6 Bonus..... Stay tuned for updates ;-)

These were only Spreadsheet Numbers, so live testing needs to done with 2.4. Especialy with the weird mechanics we face atm.

BTW: Does somebody else think that 150 Heroic Badges is a ridiculously low price for a weapon of this quality?

Last edited by Seven : 02/19/08 at 5:45 AM. Reason: spelling, spelling, spelling my english got so bad
#2928SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Enova
I'm pretty sure that as long as you compare the new Xbow with Bristle or Black Bow, and otherwise using the same gear, the current spreadsheets can back that up;
I used an older version and just added a custom weapon, but I know Cheeky used to add some of the stuff before it hit live realms.

EDIT: Yeah, it's insanely cheap, but who cares...
#2929SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3shaanah
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
BTW: Does somebody else think that 100 Heroic Badges is a ridiculously low price for a weapon of this quality?
Well it is actualy 150 on the ptr but still its extremely low compared to the time you need to get Blackbow or Britsleblitz
The main question when comparing them by 3:2 shot rotation (undoubtfuly the new xbow will win by 1:1)
Will using blackbow/bristle + haste ( around 150 to bring it past 2.8 I think) still do more damage then the
2.8 wepon with lower dps and base damage and all the stats you can get in the place of those 150 haste?
I am not a big fan of haste itemization personaly but this xbow combined with the polearm from Felmyst ( Shivering Felspine - 53 haste) should be a pretty good looking combo making 3:2 almost perfect.
#2930SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3JoeBravo
Originally Posted by orsraunia View Post
While i am on this subject, i think that having an addon that would display our attack speed in a small frame at any given time, could come in handy to those of us that like to "play" with non-permanent haste. Especially in those situations that the haste effects were used with a wrong timing and we want to look fast at our attack speed without losing focus, in order to react accordingly and not lose dps.
My reply might be a bit late, but i do can give you a suggestion: www.wowace.com : PowerDisplay

I use this to display RAP, crit%, hit%, and attackspeed. It's update-rate is fast enough to see the effect of buff's on these stat's without opening your character pane.
#2931SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
2.9	3:2	N	20	336	665	0	1038	0.964	   4 : 2
2.9	3:2	N	5	378	623	0	1106	0.905	 3.3 : 2
Especially the first one makes me wonder what's killing your rotation. The macro sends requests in "unlucky" situations which ends up with a couple 2:1 cycles in a row?

What kind of average latency do you have?

I know 2.9 without haste is 2.10 and not 2.08 which I use (3.0 + 68 haste) but I dont get results anywhere near this.

If I remember right I got only slightly worse ratio by using spam speed of 100 instead of 25.

I guess there is a huge difference between those 0.02 seconds if your latency is 40-50..
I added the average latency for each test to the table in my original post. For the two tests in questions it was 89 and 84 respectively.

I wouldn't imagine we would see much of an increase in clipping going from 25/sec to 100/sec.

Is there any difference between the macro you use and the ones I used? Perhaps the /console Sound_EnableSFX lines are causing problems (more traffic to the server)?

Last edited by Praxx : 02/19/08 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Added link to original post
#2932SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Lactose
/console Sound_EnableSFX does sound like anything other than a client-side toggle for sound effects.
#2933SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kaladian
I'm sorry but to me personally the 150 badge xbow is wrong on every level. My guild has everything on farm but it took alot of work to get to this point in the game. When i put the new xbow in cheeky's it beats Illy's bow in a 1:1 rotation by roughly 50 dps and is about equal in 3:2 rotation. Any hunter who is in a guild doing KARA will have enough badges by 2.4 to purchase this xbow grats to you guys but it burns me up.
#2934SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
I've always like my macro's to be as clear as possible so I use this:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath

Dont know if it has any effect but then again I cant find any other differences other than the magical 0.02 weapon speed and slighly higher latency.
#2935SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Would you happen to have a combat log from one of your tests?
#2936SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
I deleted the stuff but I'll get you a few logs tomorrow once I'm back to BM for a few days.
#2937SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Saryanne
Well I can understand how this would upset people who put all the time and work into BT and such getting other bows. Yet at the same time, we have been screaming for a good weapon with a lower speed, so it's hard to really gripe when they give us what we want.

The following is pure speculation (hoping it doesn't get me into trouble here.) I think that Blizz may be in the process of reworking our shot dynamics. The unlinked auto shots and the bugged double aimed and MS stuff recently in then hotfixes is what I believe (hope,) was a first attempt. I think it still may be possible that in 2.4 we may see unlinked auto shots or some other improvement.

This could mean that a better weapon is actually a better weapon and we wont be so reliant on speed.
#2938SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Exbox
Originally Posted by Saryanne View Post
Well I can understand how this would upset people who put all the time and work into BT and such getting other bows. Yet at the same time, we have been screaming for a good weapon with a lower speed, so it's hard to really gripe when they give us what we want.

The following is pure speculation (hoping it doesn't get me into trouble here.) I think that Blizz may be in the process of reworking our shot dynamics. The unlinked auto shots and the bugged double aimed and MS stuff recently in then hotfixes is what I believe (hope,) was a first attempt. I think it still may be possible that in 2.4 we may see unlinked auto shots or some other improvement.

This could mean that a better weapon is actually a better weapon and we wont be so reliant on speed.

Yah man, I already have my 150 saved up, that speed is just incredible because we dont have to waste stats on haste, pretty much.

btw, /wave, saw your tell yesterday but I was afk.
#2939SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
I'm sorry but to me personally the 150 badge xbow is wrong on every level. My guild has everything on farm but it took alot of work to get to this point in the game. When i put the new xbow in cheeky's it beats Illy's bow in a 1:1 rotation by roughly 50 dps and is about equal in 3:2 rotation. Any hunter who is in a guild doing KARA will have enough badges by 2.4 to purchase this xbow grats to you guys but it burns me up.
I agree with Saryanne. Barring any new mechanics development this is a good thing for Hunters. I'm 117 badges short, and starting to farm as soon as I can. Good itemization is good itemization, regardless of how we get it. Now, if only it was a bow....

Originally Posted by Saryanne View Post
The following is pure speculation (hoping it doesn't get me into trouble here.) I think that Blizz may be in the process of reworking our shot dynamics. The unlinked auto shots and the bugged double aimed and MS stuff recently in then hotfixes is what I believe (hope,) was a first attempt. I think it still may be possible that in 2.4 we may see unlinked auto shots or some other improvement.

This could mean that a better weapon is actually a better weapon and we wont be so reliant on speed.
God I hope so. Lactose and I had threads on the US/EU forums trying to bring attention to the issue and outlining possible solutions, but the US one was seemingly ignored and the EU just "tagged" by a CM with no information or feedback provided.

I was very encouraged by the changes we saw in the last patch, even if they seemed a little screwy and had the over-powering side effects. Hopefully if/when they change anything they actually communicate their intent as well.
#2940SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kaladian
I really hope they will unlink autoshot from specials. This is the one things holding back hunter itemization right now. It isnt that i'm not happy for hunter out there who arent in BT getting a BT quality weapon for what i see as mininal effort but what do i get for all my time put in for a weapon that is too damn slow. I would like to see the buffing of MH/BT weapons also since that is what they did for SCC/TK weapons.
#2941SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Griffen
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
2.9	3:2	N	20	336	665	0	1038	0.964	   4 : 2
2.9	3:2	N	5	378	623	0	1106	0.905	 3.3 : 2
Especially the first one makes me wonder what's killing your rotation. The macro sends requests in "unlucky" situations which ends up with a couple 2:1 cycles in a row?

What kind of average latency do you have?

I know 2.9 without haste is 2.10 and not 2.08 which I use (3.0 + 68 haste) but I dont get results anywhere near this.

If I remember right I got only slightly worse ratio by using spam speed of 100 instead of 25.

I guess there is a huge difference between those 0.02 seconds if your latency is 40-50..
Just a question. I haven't totally grasped the mechanics of the 3:2 macro, but I was wondering - won't the additional hastes also alter the actual cast time of steady shot and therefore possibly change how the mechanics works in regards to weapon speed?

So that a modified 2.1 (hypothetical) speed with additional +haste might work differently than a 2.1 speed with only the regular hastes (SS and Quiver) since the cast time of the steady shot also will be altered.


PS: If anyone would care to elaborate on the mechanics of the 3:2 macro I would love to read it. Im pretty confused atm, to me it seems that either it causes the GCD to be ignored, or that GCD of steady shot is considered to start while auto shot is casting while the actual cast of steady shot starts as the auto shot is firing, causing it to be a minimum delay between 2 steady shots before next auto shot.

Last edited by Griffen : 02/19/08 at 1:13 PM. Reason: Adding a ps comment
#2942SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
WWS account creation doesnt work for me for some reason so here's a picture and log file. It's not a very large sample but rotation doesnt really change from what I've seen with own tests. I can do over a 1000 shot sample if you want though, but not today.

209 steady | 138 auto



RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting (I know, sorry for Rapidshare)

Had 19-22ms during the test.
#2943SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Driga
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I agree with Saryanne. Barring any new mechanics development this is a good thing for Hunters. I'm 117 badges short, and starting to farm as soon as I can. Good itemization is good itemization, regardless of how we get it. Now, if only it was a bow....
Yes, I'm already farming my badges for this, and I agree with Cheeky. This fixes an itemization hole, and whatever Blizzard's reason for doing it, I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. As a late-T5 raider, it's been kind of painful to contemplate going pretty much indefinitely without any possibility of a true, substantial ranged weapon upgrade. Maybe Blizzard should've fixed the MH/BT ranged weapons at the same time (or even the SSC/TK ones), but there's still no way this isn't a good thing. I'm pretty thrilled with this, and as a member of a guild that got a very late start raiding (started hitting SSC/TK seriously in early January), I'm hoping that the 2.4 badge loot will help speed our progression through T6 in the same way that 2.3 badge loot helped us through T5. We want to see all the content before WotLK, and anything that helps us gear up faster makes that more likely.
#2944SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Griffen View Post
PS: If anyone would care to elaborate on the mechanics of the 3:2 macro I would love to read it. Im pretty confused atm, to me it seems that either it causes the GCD to be ignored, or that GCD of steady shot is considered to start while auto shot is casting while the actual cast of steady shot starts as the auto shot is firing, causing it to be a minimum delay between 2 steady shots before next auto shot.
As of yet, there has been a complete failure at developing a solid model for the 3:2 macro. It depends on latency, jitter in latency, and speed in spamming the macro - all of which are pretty much random for most people.

We can model shot damages based on patterns and timing, but can't generate the patterns and timing reliably.
#2945SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Griffen
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
As of yet, there has been a complete failure at developing a solid model for the 3:2 macro. It depends on latency, jitter in latency, and speed in spamming the macro - all of which are pretty much random for most people.

We can model shot damages based on patterns and timing, but can't generate the patterns and timing reliably.
Aye, I can understand that it's near impossible to actually reproduce such mechanics with any accuracy, but is my understanding of it semi-correct? That because of the server side handling of auto-shot seems (somehow) to reduce the time between the shots (particularly the 2 steady shots in between auto-shots) with more than could be expected with the normal (old familiar) mechanics (accounting for GCD f.ex.).
#2946SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kavor
Hi people !

First i would like to apologize about my english ... i'm a french hunter and i would like to know what is the best : Hast ? Ignore Armor ? or just typicals stats ?

I think that you still talked about theses subjects but read 116 pages in english is very difficult so if someone could answers to me it will be very nice.

Thks.
#2947SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bulldazhor
As a french myself, i would encourage you to download monsieur cheeky's speadsheet and look what is best for you.
Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development

Bon courage
#2948SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khassandra
I haven't seen this asked or answered (and I did look although there's so much I may have missed it). As far as prime raid pets, it appears that ravagers are touted as the best dps due to having Gore. However, boar can also be taught Gore, and have Charge available to them. I know Petopia has the modifiers as +10 dps for ravagers and -10 dps for boar, but why? What are the modifiers based on? I'm not very good at crunching numbers but wouldn't the addition of Charge make boar comparable to ravagers?
#2949SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ronaro
Im raiding as bm and my guild at this moment is trying to kill archimonde. Im using a cat for dps but on archimonde fight he dies too fast or because of doomfire or from the curse... Some people told me to tame a wind serpent from netherstorm to this fight. Is that a good idea?
#2950SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Laif
Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
I haven't seen this asked or answered (and I did look although there's so much I may have missed it). As far as prime raid pets, it appears that ravagers are touted as the best dps due to having Gore. However, boar can also be taught Gore, and have Charge available to them. I know Petopia has the modifiers as +10 dps for ravagers and -10 dps for boar, but why? What are the modifiers based on? I'm not very good at crunching numbers but wouldn't the addition of Charge make boar comparable to ravagers?
Those are the actual in-game damage modifiers, and not Petopia "rankings". As in, Ravagers do 110% damage, while boars do 90% damage (compared to what a generic "average" would be). That is just how the pets are programmed in WoW.
#2951SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Cranch
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
As requested.

I went back and did the testing firing 1000 shots with 4 different weapon speeds, 2 rotations, 2 spam rates, with and without KC.

<stuff>
Thanks for the spreadsheet link. Using that, and using reasonable mean values for auto, steady, and kill command damage (i.e., mine from Cheeky's), and using a fixed dps weapon and changing speed only, it turns out that the highest total damage per 1000 seconds comes from a 2.8 speed weapon with the 3:2 macro using kill command and spammed 20 times a second.

Yes, lots of caveats. But it is interesting to see the damage peak at 2.8 (though 3.0 is close.)

Note I am using particular weights for auto, steady, and kill command. Your mileage will vary. But as long as the values were reasonable (I tried both a custom weapon as well as WSR), the peak still occurred at the same place.

Here's my table and the equation I used:

Equation: =(G4*C4/3*663+H4*635+I4*354)/J4

Resulting damage table per 1000 seconds:

27_32_20	643.1103
27_32_5	        632.9368
27_32_20_nokc	627.8188
27_32_5_nokc	616.2727
27_11_20	647.4192
27_11_5	        646.8329
27_11_20_nokc	603.6243
27_11_5_nokc	586.3414
28_32_20	678.0894           #1
28_32_5	        644.0437
28_32_20_nokc	621.8836
28_32_5_nokc	607.8687
28_11_20	625.9446
28_11_5	        593.9593
28_11_20_nokc	580.448
28_11_5_nokc	558.6189
29_32_20	647.5071
29_32_5	        584.0955
29_32_20_nokc	614.275
29_32_5_nokc	576.7316
29_11_20	581.7815
29_11_5	        589.9138
29_11_20_nokc	556.2158
29_11_5_nokc	564.0373
30_32_20	661.4252           #2
30_32_5	        617.1869
30_32_20_nokc	617.3745
30_32_5_nokc	612.9839
30_11_20	622.9062
30_11_5	        638.732
30_11_20_nokc	566.4642
30_11_5_nokc	589.5817

Last edited by Cranch : 02/20/08 at 8:22 PM.
#2952SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ivaldi
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Equation: =(G4*C4/3*663+H4*635+I4*354)/J4

Resulting damage table per 1000 seconds:

27_32_20	643.1103
27_32_5	        632.9368
27_32_20_nokc	627.8188
27_32_5_nokc	616.2727
27_11_20	647.4192
27_11_5	        646.8329
27_11_20_nokc	603.6243
27_11_5_nokc	586.3414
This table appears to show a higher DPS for 1:1 than 3:2 with a 2.7 speed weapon, however we know this to not be true. Am I misinterpreting something?

Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
I haven't seen this asked or answered (and I did look although there's so much I may have missed it). As far as prime raid pets, it appears that ravagers are touted as the best dps due to having Gore. However, boar can also be taught Gore, and have Charge available to them. I know Petopia has the modifiers as +10 dps for ravagers and -10 dps for boar, but why? What are the modifiers based on? I'm not very good at crunching numbers but wouldn't the addition of Charge make boar comparable to ravagers?
The question wasn't directly answered. With 20% less DPS the DPS of a boar doesn't come close to a Ravager, Cat or Wind serpent.

Originally Posted by ronaro View Post
Im raiding as bm and my guild at this moment is trying to kill archimonde. Im using a cat for dps but on archimonde fight he dies too fast or because of doomfire or from the curse... Some people told me to tame a wind serpent from netherstorm to this fight. Is that a good idea?
A wind serpent has 2% more health than a cat, and no abilities that would affect the survivability. If you aren't keeping a cat up right now, bringing a wind serpent isn't going to make any difference.
#2953SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khassandra
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
The question wasn't directly answered. With 20% less DPS the DPS of a boar doesn't come close to a Ravager, Cat or Wind serpent.
Cool, thanks very much. Guess I'll keep bringing my ravager to raids but will keep my Agamar for stuff like heroics and farming. He's just far too cute, and I've worked too hard to level him from 25 just to dump him because he's doing less dps.
#2954SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Drash
Ignore Armor/Pet Crit

Hey guys... I just had a couple of quick questions and maybe you'll have the answers or I can at least be pointed in the right direction to find them.

1. When does ignore armor begin to shine for hunters PvE wise? Is there a set amount to shoot for to where it'll out perform straight AP?

2. Will stacking ignore armor over AP hurt our pets more than helping us since it seems our pets scale with our AP and the ignore armor stat doesn't benefit them.

3. How can you find out what your pet's crit rating is? Does it scale with gear or is it a base amount that can be added to with talents?
#2955SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
This table appears to show a higher DPS for 1:1 than 3:2 with a 2.7 speed weapon, however we know this to not be true. Am I misinterpreting something?
No misinterpretation on your part. The numbers are what they are. It's interesting he had ~50msec higher lag during the 1:1 testing compared to the 3:2 yet got better dps. If only hunter shot rotations were easy to analyze...
#2956SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fendryl
Originally Posted by ronaro View Post
Im raiding as bm and my guild at this moment is trying to kill archimonde. Im using a cat for dps but on archimonde fight he dies too fast or because of doomfire or from the curse... Some people told me to tame a wind serpent from netherstorm to this fight. Is that a good idea?
Archimonde is a bad fight for pets. Even with max FR, doomfire's dot just tears them up; a mend just isn't enough to heal the damage. With a shadow priest, 2 pc T5, or both, you might be able to out-heal it. You may want to consider just keeping your pet with you so that you have the 2% damage from Focused Fire, and have TBW for a fear prevention. As you get used to the fight you'll find some times when it's safe to send in your pet to get a few FI procs off, but it's usually going to happen that a doomfire's eventually going to kill him.

You can often remove the curse with an improved mend (especially come 2.4), and depending on your decursers, they may get your pet as well. I can't see why using a wind serpent would be that much more beneficial (I use one), unless it's for the 'fly in, lb, fly out' behavior, but even then your pet's most likely going to catch a doomfire eventually.

It's annoying to have a fight where you can't make use of your pet, but then again, Archimonde isn't a DPS fight, it's a survival fight.
#2957SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rifeus
Been going through some pages here, but I still can't find a clear answer to this, and I belive people still speculate over this.

But what's roughly the best autoshot speed for the "new" 3:2 rotation, 2.0 seconds? And does that mean 2.0 seconds with calculated ms? i.e if you have 150 ms you'd want a 1.85 Attackspeed to hit 2.0 seconds?

Thanks in advance.
#2958SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
This table appears to show a higher DPS for 1:1 than 3:2 with a 2.7 speed weapon, however we know this to not be true. Am I misinterpreting something?
I think we are seeing the effects of KC on a very tight rotation. In testing I achieved higher shots/sec with a 1:1 using the 2.7 spd.

              Attack count    Combat     Shots      Ratio   Damage    Avg
Test          AS   SS   KC      Time      /sec      SS:AS     Done    Lag
27_32_20      263  737  164     1062     0.942    5.6 : 2   775730     56
27_32_5       339  662  156     1071     0.935    3.9 : 2   762489     87
27_11_20      503  497  159     1038     0.963   0.99 : 1   740104    134
27_11_5       502  498  159     1039     0.962   0.99 : 1   739506    136

Some of what we "know" may be based on incorrect assumptions (i.e. no interaction between KC and AS). When I have done Dr. Boom testing the 3:2 macro achieves higher shot output but this is not real testing as there is no pet involved.

From all the testing this is what seems to be happening.



In a clean 3:2 cycle the first auto shot is fired almost instantly after the first steady shot. The second auto is fired just before the start of the third steady. Any KC proc seems to bump the auto to the point of clipping into the next steady thus killing it.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/21/08 at 11:23 AM. Reason: correcting attached image
#2959SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Thanks for the spreadsheet link. Using that, and using reasonable mean values for auto, steady, and kill command damage (i.e., mine from Cheeky's), and using a fixed dps weapon and changing speed only, it turns out that the highest total damage per 1000 seconds comes from a 2.8 speed weapon with the 3:2 macro using kill command and spammed 20 times a second.
That was also the highest shots/sec using KC of any test but at a 5.2 : 2 ratio it is a mana beast. I went through my mana bar 10 times on that test.

If 2.8 is the sweet spot that will make the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] that much nicer.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/21/08 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Added item link.
#2960SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meterslayer
Originally Posted by Daemous View Post
I filed a bug about the hang-up. I included the exact macros which can cause the BUG. I got a stupid reply about them not supporting macros. I can understand them not touching bugs within macros. But clearly macros that can fubar the entire experience need to be addressed.

For reference: This does not only affect macros, it is an actual in game glitch. I do a manual rotation 100% of the time (thinking about giving a macro a shot, but I'm strangely opposed to the idea of more or less reducing myself to a one button spam)
This bug makes me CURSE the day I was born. It happens so often on kill command its amazing. It can however happen on ANY ability. I've had it hang me on popping rapid shot (hitting the button and being forced to move my character before the server registers that I've popped it seems to trigger this). Blizzard needs to figure out what is causing this and fix it, it may be because of the newer server side changes to abilities.. but I certainly hope not, as I live in Hawaii and my average latency on a good raid day is 200-250ms+

This is probably why I see it so often.. if I try to kill command at say 2% on a trash mob, the mob often dies before the KC registers and goes off, leaving it in the perpetual casting state and completely screwing my dps until I can get a arcane/multi/steady shot crit and use kill command again to reset it.

Extremely annoying.
#2961SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
I think we are seeing the effects of KC on a very tight rotation. In testing I achieved higher shots/sec with a 1:1 using the 2.7 spd.

              Attack count    Combat     Shots      Ratio   Damage    Avg
Test          AS   SS   KC      Time      /sec      SS:AS     Done    Lag
27_32_20      263  737  164     1062     0.942    5.6 : 2   775730     56
27_32_5       339  662  156     1071     0.935    3.9 : 2   762489     87
27_11_20      503  497  159     1038     0.963   0.99 : 1   740104    134
27_11_5       502  498  159     1039     0.962   0.99 : 1   739506    136

Some of what we "know" may be based on incorrect assumptions (i.e. no interaction between KC and AS). When I have done Dr. Boom testing the 3:2 macro achieves higher shot output but this is not real testing as there is no pet involved.

From all the testing this is what seems to be happening.



In a clean 3:2 cycle the first auto shot is fired almost instantly after the first steady shot. The second auto is fired just before the start of the third steady. Any KC proc seems to bump the auto to the point of clipping into the next steady thus killing it.
I see the same thing. 3:2 runs smooth without KC but KC seems to push autoshot back even more. Someday they will unlink our specials from autoshot without messing it up like last time. What i dont understand is why noone at Blizzard can firgure out most of our issues in shot rotation is because of the .5/sec hidden cast of autoshot.
#2962SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Katho
I've also noticed that the bug "resets" itself after a while. For example, last night I was doing a raid and the bug occured. So I go back to manually doing SS and KC (which works for me). But on clearing the way to the next boss all of a sudden the macro is working again.

The macro error doesn't reset after a successful manual KC. I tried that first. The macro doesn't reset after a /reloadui. I can't think of any rhyme or reason for it, unless it's just a time related reset. Also logging out and in to WoW has always fixed the bug for me, that seems pretty obvious.

Has anyone figured this out?

BTW, I'm using the standard 1:1 macro with WSR. I'm still trying to figure out the 3:2 macro and haven't grasped a complete understanding of it yet. Reviewing this forum to figure it out.
#2963SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
I see the same thing. 3:2 runs smooth without KC but KC seems to push autoshot back even more. Someday they will unlink our specials from autoshot without messing it up like last time. What i dont understand is why noone at Blizzard can firgure out most of our issues in shot rotation is because of the .5/sec hidden cast of autoshot.
We would be fine if they would just fix the interaction between KC and shots. KC isn't even supposed to invoke the GCD so there is no good reason for it to bump auto shot. We should be able to fire a KC right in the middle of casting any of our timed shots with no impact.
#2964SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Katho View Post
I've also noticed that the bug "resets" itself after a while. For example, last night I was doing a raid and the bug occured. So I go back to manually doing SS and KC (which works for me). But on clearing the way to the next boss all of a sudden the macro is working again.

The macro error doesn't reset after a successful manual KC. I tried that first. The macro doesn't reset after a /reloadui. I can't think of any rhyme or reason for it, unless it's just a time related reset. Also logging out and in to WoW has always fixed the bug for me, that seems pretty obvious.

Has anyone figured this out?

BTW, I'm using the standard 1:1 macro with WSR. I'm still trying to figure out the 3:2 macro and haven't grasped a complete understanding of it yet. Reviewing this forum to figure it out.
What macro are you using exactly? I fired 8,000 with each of the following two macros and never had the auto shot bug happen.

3:2
#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

1:1
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Many people have reported that moving the KC to after the shots helped with the problem.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/22/08 at 2:49 PM.
#2965SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
What macro are you using exactly? I fired 8,000 with each of the following two macros and never had the auto shot bug happen.
I think it only happens when your target dies. Something your 8,000 shots didn't run into.
#2966SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I think it only happens when your target dies. Something your 8,000 shots didn't run into.
Hmm, I have not run into it in any normal runs either however. Possible that the [target=pettarget, exists] evaluation avoids the problem?
#2967SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
Hmm, I have not run into it in any normal runs either however. Possible that the [target=pettarget, exists] evaluation avoids the problem?
Maybe. I've given up on the 3:2 macros so I've kinda lost interest in testing them any further.
#2968SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Katho
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
1:1
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Many people have reported that moving the KC to after the shots helped with the problem.
This is the macro I'm using, althought I think my reset is longer and there isn't the ! before Autoshot. I do know the [target=petattack, exists] part is in there and that the KC line is after the castsequence. I double checked two nights ago.

BTW, simple question I should probably be able to look up, but google doesn't seem to be any help. What does the ! do?

Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I think it only happens when your target dies.
I'd antidotally agree with this. (I know I shouldn't do that.)
#2969SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Katho View Post
BTW, simple question I should probably be able to look up, but google doesn't seem to be any help. What does the ! do?
The ! is a "toggle on" with no off so it can be spammed.
#2970SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Relwin
The autoshot 'sticking' will happen whenever you can't finish a cast on your intended target as best I can tell. The one i had the most fun with was on the PTR actually. I was trying to squeeze a quick arcane shot off before I got ported out of the demon realm on Kalecgos but didn't quite get it finished. Of course this stuck auto until I was able to catch a portal again. I haven't been able to figure out anything besides relogging to fix the issue reliably as well.
#2971SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fenz
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
What macro are you using exactly? I fired 8,000 with each of the following two macros and never had the auto shot bug happen.

3:2
#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

1:1
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Many people have reported that moving the KC to after the shots helped with the problem.

Is the main difference between these 2 macro's mana consumption?
#2972SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Fenz View Post
Is the main difference between these 2 macro's mana consumption?
More mana/sec but higher damage/sec, yes.
#2973SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
sparnicus
In a Nutshell

There's nothing here that the theorycrafters on this thread haven't already found, but I'm seeing a lot of people asking the same questions, which indicates to me that conceptually the differences in rotations still has many confused. Here is some data (not perfect, but good) that may help clear things up.

There are so many factors involved (haste rating, armor pen, crit rate, and just plain serendipity) that keep rotation comparison from being an exact science. But after a day of testing, here is what I have to show, and the deductions I've made:

Tests were done with no haste effects (which with GCD as a factor with Rapid Fire, Quick Shots, Heroism), as clipping will occur at any time a normal rotation speed falls below 1.5 seconds. The tests are 2 full minutes of data.



Upon first inspection, the conclusion that is probably made will be "well total Damage and DPS for the second rotation is higher, therefore it must be the better rotation". Yes, and no. As I've already stated, the fact that in 2 minutes there is no foolproof way to control crit chance (and there are blocks) the total damage numbers are less useful than we'd hope. The more interesting data lies at the bottom of each test. First we see that steady shot does roughly the same ammount of damage (min/max) as auto shot. This is of course a conditional factor; steady and auto scale from RAP in completely different ways:

SteadyShotDamage = 150 + (WeaponDamage/WeaponSpeed)*2.8 + 0.2*RAP
AutoShotDamage = AmmoDPS*WeaponSpeed + (RAP/14)*WeaponSpeed + WeaponDamage + ScopeDamage

Also take into consideration that this is WITHOUT the 4 piece T6 hunter bonus (10% dmg to steady).

Regardless, the deciding factor at almost any gear level (completely excluding pets) must be total shots over the timeframe.

We can see that while there are 58 auto shots on the first rotation, there are only 46 on the second. Since auto shot is on a static timer, this indicates shot clipping. However, the second rotation has overall dolled out 7 more total shots. Again, assuming that steady damage is greater than or equal to auto, our conclusions are:

More mana usage
Higher potential damage output
Increased opportunity to crit (Go for the Throat)

Upon retesting the second rotation, the following data was cataloged:



Is it significant that this time the same rotation, with the same timeframe yielded approximately 7k less total damage? No, because again there is no way to account for crits over such a short period of time, therefore this total will be slightly variable from test to test. If we look at the pertinent data once more, we see that both the total amount of shots fired and ratio of auto to steady are almost identical.

Last edited by sparnicus : 02/24/08 at 5:22 AM.
#2974SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kaji-Boulderfist
I don't know if it's been mentioned but wouldn't testing the 3:2 macro be more accurate on a mob like the Servant of Allistarj in Blasted lands. The mob never dies. You can send your pet in and let it build 50k threat or so then reset your meter or start your combatlog and go all out on it. It should give you more accurate KC proc data.
#2975SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
sparnicus
The plot thickens...

Here are the variables:

-Different mob, lower level, lower armor (therefore, again total damage/dps should be discounted)
-Cheap arrows
-2 minutes of data (the duration of an IMPROVED hunter's mark)
-Immediate use of bestial wrath with rapid fire upon engage
-Pet is a windserpent, bite priority over lightning breath





The initial rapid fire for the 2:3 of course set off massive clipping, which explains the slightly skewed final ratio of SS:AS, and the fact that total shots fell behind.

The pet did quite a bit more damage on the 1:1 than the 2:3, but then again, in completely random fashion, the first had 31 crits to the second's 24 (pretty big gap, no way to account for it).

It still seems like SS will normally do more damage (again even without t6 4-piece), so without the sloppy clipping of a rapid fire or a heroism, I still feel that 2:3 will come out on top. The conventional knowledge is to swap to the 1:1 during stretches of haste.

Anyone see anything here I don't? Keep in mind that 2 minutes is not enough time to weed most of the chaotic factors, but I'm fairly sure there isn't enough gear in the game to sustain a significantly longer solo rotation.

Last edited by sparnicus : 02/24/08 at 5:28 AM.
#2976SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Flouyd
Originally Posted by sparnicus View Post
The initial rapid fire for the 2:3 of course set off massive clipping, which explains the slightly skewed final ratio of SS:AS, and the fact that total shots fell behind.

The pet did quite a bit more damage on the 1:1 than the 2:3, but then again, in completely random fashion, the first had 31 crits to the second's 24 (pretty big gap, no way to account for it).

It still seems like SS will normally do more damage (again even without t6 4-piece), so without the sloppy clipping of a rapid fire or a heroism, I still feel that 2:3 will come out on top. The conventional knowledge is to swap to the 1:1 during stretches of haste.

Anyone see anything here I don't? Keep in mind that 2 minutes is not enough time to weed most of the chaotic factors, but I'm fairly sure there isn't enough gear in the game to sustain a significantly longer solo rotation.
Hmmm rapid fire does not produce clipping for 3:2. It just trensform into a 1:1 rotation. Clipping during rapid fire is far worst for 1:1 /castsequence then 3:2 spam makros.

What makes me not using the 3:2 rotation is, that nearly everytime KC procs it makes me clipping a AS completly. And it looks like its the same for you to. Or how do you explain that you fired less total shots then on teh Dr. Boom test?
#2977SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Kaji-Boulderfist View Post
I don't know if it's been mentioned but wouldn't testing the 3:2 macro be more accurate on a mob like the Servant of Allistarj in Blasted lands. The mob never dies. You can send your pet in and let it build 50k threat or so then reset your meter or start your combatlog and go all out on it. It should give you more accurate KC proc data.
You can find the result of my 32k shots against the Servant of Sevine in the Blasted Lands here.
#2978SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kharthus
Originally Posted by Fendryl View Post
You can often remove the curse with an improved mend (especially come 2.4), and depending on your decursers, they may get your pet as well. I can't see why using a wind serpent would be that much more beneficial (I use one), unless it's for the 'fly in, lb, fly out' behavior, but even then your pet's most likely going to catch a doomfire eventually.

It's annoying to have a fight where you can't make use of your pet, but then again, Archimonde isn't a DPS fight, it's a survival fight.
I also read somewhere that pets won't get Grip in 2.4. Of course, I hope to not be running Hyjal anymore so it probably won't matter. They should make them immune to Doomfire as well like on Supremus.

And unless it's been fixed, pets don't get the immunity at 10% so they die in about 1/2 sec.
#2979SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3steamrice
Originally Posted by Flouyd View Post
Hmmm rapid fire does not produce clipping for 3:2. It just trensform into a 1:1 rotation. Clipping during rapid fire is far worst for 1:1 /castsequence then 3:2 spam makros.

What makes me not using the 3:2 rotation is, that nearly everytime KC procs it makes me clipping a AS completly. And it looks like its the same for you to. Or how do you explain that you fired less total shots then on teh Dr. Boom test?
Do you have Kill Command in between !Auto shot and Steady shot? I recently moved it to the bottom of my macro and it has been a lot better.
#2980SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Flouyd
Originally Posted by steamrice View Post
Do you have Kill Command in between !Auto shot and Steady shot? I recently moved it to the bottom of my macro and it has been a lot better.
I tried it near everywhere. I used /cast and also /castrandom but nothing solved the Problem. Every time I got a KC before my Auto it just skips the Auto and cast another SS. Usually I have a very low ping (40-60 ms) and I think that's what ruins it for me. On the other hand my low ping helps my /castsequence macro quite a lot so I'm not really worried
#2981SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3lori2
hello,
Im looking for a new Bow/gun i wanted to know whats the best upgrade from [Steelhawk Crossbow]

thanks
#2982SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Scrummy
Well after looking at everyone else's number's and trying many things in raids I decided to go and do my own tests. Both were on the un-killable mobs in the Blasted Lands, Test 1 used a 1:1 rotation and Test 2 was a 3:2. I play/work at a LAN center where we have a fiber connection and on my computer I rarely see less than 120 FPS. So internet/video lag are something unheard of.

1 --> WWS Loading...

2 --> WWS Loading...

Both were exactly 2 minutes long and in Test 1 I actually lost the ferocious inspiration buff twice but got 1 more madness proc. Test 2 the pet crit enough to keep the buff up the whole time but the trinket only proc'd 3 times. This is basically the same test Sparnicus ran but using a ravager instead of the wind serpent. Rapid Fire, Bestial Wrath and my Berserker's Call were all popped immediately at the beginning. I kept viper on the whole time.

The results show the 1:1 rotation doing about 21 less dps and around 850 less total damage, but I saved almost 2k mana from all steady's I wasn't spamming with the 3:2 rotation. This was all performed with 4p t6 and I'm surprised my variation of steady damage to auto damage using the 3:2 wasn't much different than Sparnicus's.
#2983SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nvous23
Since I have a windserpent should I include Lightning Breath into my macro so my 3:2 looks like this:

#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

?
#2984SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seven
Originally Posted by lori2 View Post
hello,
Im looking for a new Bow/gun i wanted to know whats the best upgrade from [Steelhawk Crossbow]

thanks
I would recommend Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle from Theatre Event or Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix from Prince.
For more common questions refering to your personal Itemasation in general please refer to [Hunter]Help me please

A good source for Itemisation is Kaliban's Class Loot Lists

Since I have a windserpent should I include Lightning Breath into my macro so my 3:2 looks like this:

#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
Turn autocast of LB of and use the macro above. Its a fix for a strange WS behaviour where it doesn't move into melee range, loosing DPS.
#2985SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dunmail
Originally Posted by lori2 View Post
hello,
Im looking for a new Bow/gun i wanted to know whats the best upgrade from [Steelhawk Crossbow]

thanks
If BM Wolfslayer (Opera)
Prince's bow ain't bad either and does slightly more damage, but is slower.

If you're running KZ both are fairly obtainable.
#2986SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fimbo
Originally Posted by Dunmail View Post
If BM Wolfslayer (Opera)
Prince's bow ain't bad either and does slightly more damage, but is slower.

If you're running KZ both are fairly obtainable.
Or alternatively save 150 badges from your Kara runs and wait for patch 2.4: [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]
#2987SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Wunlastri
Anyone else annoyed how much that currently looks like Legionkiller?
#2988SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Esau
Yeah, i think Blizzard have got into a bad habbit of recycling skins for 'new' weapons. It's just plain lazy.


Any ETA on this?
#2989SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meanmoocow
Macro help for BM hunter

I have tried using the macros posted in this thread but have found that the steady shot weaving macro stops my autoshot cycle. Has there been a change to the macro language in 2.3? And is it possible to make a recycling macro for steady shot weaving (ie. auto pilot)?

My ranged attack speed it 2.10 if thats important (I'm not sure because I'm not really good with macros)
#2990SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3oshawa03
Hey guys,

I'm currently trying to 'catch back up' with where I was. I've been AFK for about 2 months. This whole 3:2 rotation thing seems so interesting, I'm currently trying to find where news of it first broke. I had a few questions if people didn't mind answering if I couldn't find them.

1) What changed to the /castsequence caused the 3:2 shot rotation? Does Autoshot not have its .5 hidden cast time anymore?

2) Did I see a post that b/c said a fix is coming in 2.4 that will eliminate the 3:2 shot rotation?

3) As a dwarf BM hunter, I currently have wolfslayer. I custom put the stats for the new 150 badge xbow into cheeky's spreadsheet, and found it to be a better dps then Wolfslayer, but less then Barrel-blade longrifle. It must be a combination of 2 factors I think...the +gun racial I get, plus the slower speed of the x-box isn't perfect for the 1:1 rotation. Any further suggestions?

4) Speaking of the BB Longrifle, with it being BOE next patch, I have interest in buying it, especially if he proves to be better then the new x-bow...however I fear its speed is too fast. My lat is usually around 250, and while I don't clip my auto's currently with wolfslayer (even when I have the Imp AotH buff), I totally do whenever I use quickshots...so I can only assume it would be worse with a faster gun. Any opinions?

The World of Warcraft Armory


Anyways...back to the reading grind. If anyone can suggest a page where the 3:2 talk started around about, I'd appreciate that greatly.
#2991SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nazaky
:(

Hey!
I’m a raiding hunter that raids ssc(6/6)/Tk3/4) but it seems that my overall dmg is a bit low in raids I’m a BM hunter 41/20 my current stats are: 1857 AP, Attack speed is 2,1, 129 hit rating and Crit raiting is 23,21% 536 Agility.
I’m using the sunfurry bow, My pet is a cat.
My mana pool isn’t all that great: 7k But i use things like:
[Superior Mana Oil]
[Elixir of Major Mageblood]
[Demonic Rune]
so its all right.

And now for my question, I’m currently using:
#Showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Been using that one for a while now.

But someone say i should use:
#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

And someone else say i should i use:
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

And someone else again say i should use :
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


:S... So im really confused, What should i go for?
Fell free to check out my armoury for a closer look at what gear I use.

The World of Warcraft Armory



- Nazaky
#2992SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Aylek
It's been a while, probably (roundabout 6 months or so) when one of our more mathematically gifted posters came up with a very comprehensive comparison off all end-game trinkets.

I was wondering how the result would be considering the 'new' shot mechanics. I am especially interested in a comparison of Dragonspine Trophy, Berserker's Call, Madness of the Betrayer and the Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness.

Last edited by Aylek : 02/26/08 at 9:13 AM.
#2993SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Nazaky View Post
And now for my question, I’m currently using:
#Showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Many people have reported that moving the Kill Command below the shots in the macro has fixed the problem with Auto Shot getting stuck. Also, in 2.3 they changed the behavior of cast in macros. From 2.3 patch notes "/cast will toggle spells again unless the name is prefixed with an exclamation mark, e.g. /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot". It is an on with no off so it can be spammed.



But someone say i should use:
#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1


This is the new 3:2 macro that gives a higher damage output but also greater mana consumption. Dr. Boom testing has shown this to output the following sequence. steady - auto - steady - auto - steady There seems to be a problem with the mechanic however. When Kill Command procs it pushes the auto shot a bit and clips it sometimes.

Another change in 3.2 seems to have changed when the servers will accept the auto shot command. When casting a steady shot it appears the .5 sec auto cast timer can begin while the steady shot is still firing making the two fire almost simultaneously.

The /console Sound_EnableSFX lines disable sound for the instant the macro is firing so you don't hear the weapon *click* even when a shot it not fired.



And someone else say i should i use:
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


This is basically the same as the one you are using with the exception of adding the "!" toggle, moving the kill command below the shots and clearing out some extra /script commands. The error will flash on the screen for an instant but be cleared by the macro. If that is annoying you can add in the /script UIErrorsFrame:Hide() and UIErrorsFrame:Show() like the ones in your current macro.



And someone else again say i should use :
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


This is the same as the second macro with additional error handling but no sound disable. The addition of the /castrandom Arcane Shot is something I have not messed with but I would think this would cause additional auto shot clipping and higher mana consumption for no additional and possibly less dps.


I would say go with the following.

#showtooltip
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=1 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

This should give you the same results as your old macro while accounting for some of the changes in 2.3.

Last edited by Praxx : 02/26/08 at 9:53 AM. Reason: spelling
#2994SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nvous23
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
I would recommend Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle from Theatre Event or Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix from Prince.
For more common questions refering to your personal Itemasation in general please refer to [Hunter]Help me please

A good source for Itemisation is Kaliban's Class Loot Lists


Turn autocast of LB of and use the macro above. Its a fix for a strange WS behaviour where it doesn't move into melee range, loosing DPS.
I currently have autocast of LB and bite off, I read someone else that they made bite a priority? I'm assuming because bite does more damage than lightning breath? How is it that you make bite a priority over LB? TYIA
#2995SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by nvous23 View Post
I currently have autocast of LB and bite off, I read someone else that they made bite a priority? I'm assuming because bite does more damage than lightning breath? How is it that you make bite a priority over LB? TYIA
You should leave bite on auto cast. The LB bug will cause the pet to stop outside of melee range and cast LB so the auto cast is turned off to correct that.
#2996SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rifeus
Hmmm rapid fire does not produce clipping for 3:2. It just trensform into a 1:1 rotation. Clipping during rapid fire is far worst for 1:1 /castsequence then 3:2 spam makros.
Does this mean that if you get to ~1.5 seconds casting time the 3:2 macro automaticly turns into a 1:1 rotation?
Is this true? - Then there is no use of using a 1:1 macro for quickshots and a 3:2 for without since the macro is gonna do that automaticly?
#2997SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Rifeus View Post
Does this mean that if you get to ~1.5 seconds casting time the 3:2 macro automaticly turns into a 1:1 rotation?
Is this true? - Then there is no use of using a 1:1 macro for quickshots and a 3:2 for without since the macro is gonna do that automaticly?
This for me is the interesting thing about a 3:2 macro.
Going from being able to run a 1:1 rotation with a minimum rotation time of 1.6s to one with a minimum time of 1.5s is more appealing than the mild dps increase at the cost of so much mana that 3:2 brings.
#2998SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
Every time quick shots and haste drums are up at the same time it switches to 1:1 rotation. Havent you guys watched combat logs while shooting at Dr. Boom?

Question to Praxx:

Have you tried any comparison between the most basic 3:2 which is:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

And the one you suggested to be the best:

#showtooltip
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=1 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

I just dont understand how the UIErrorFrame scripts can do anything but harm to bug/slow things down.
#2999SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Question to Praxx:

Have you tried any comparison between the most basic 3:2 which is:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

And the one you suggested to be the best:

#showtooltip
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=1 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

I just dont understand how the UIErrorFrame scripts can do anything but harm to bug/slow things down.
I have not tested for a difference between the macros with and without /script commands, no. My assumption is the /script commands are carried out on the client which would avoid any interaction. If you have a minute it would be simple enough to test.

1. Make a macro button with the /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() command.
2. Start casting Aimed Shot.
3. Try to cast Aimed Shot again (to generate an error).
4. Hit the macro to clear the error.

If anything happens other than the error clearing off the screen then there is some interaction. If not then having the commands in the macro has no impact.
#3000SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KayossZero
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Every time quick shots and haste drums are up at the same time it switches to 1:1 rotation. Havent you guys watched combat logs while shooting at Dr. Boom?

Question to Praxx:

Have you tried any comparison between the most basic 3:2 which is:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

And the one you suggested to be the best:

#showtooltip
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=1 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

I just dont understand how the UIErrorFrame scripts can do anything but harm to bug/slow things down.
I use macros such as these to never waste expensive ammo on shots that don't benefit from it:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command 
/equip Rough Arrow
/cast Steady Shot
/equip Timeless Arrow
I used to use the scripts to hide error spam, but now I just use Errormonster and I've never ever noticed any addition of lag or bugs/quirks with either the Ammo Swap macros or EM.
#3001SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
If anything happens other than the error clearing off the screen then there is some interaction. If not then having the commands in the macro has no impact.
Thats not exactly a raid situation simulation. When the button is being hit 20 times a second it is.
#3002SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hunterlin
When I made macros that swap ammo, I had feeling that it did slow down. May be because ammo swap plays sounds, and I have not made tests of macro with ammo swap to prove this.
Ammo swap does send message to server, so I will not be surprised if it slows rotation down by latency value.
#3003SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Docster
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Thanks for the spreadsheet link. Using that, and using reasonable mean values for auto, steady, and kill command damage (i.e., mine from Cheeky's), and using a fixed dps weapon and changing speed only, it turns out that the highest total damage per 1000 seconds comes from a 2.8 speed weapon with the 3:2 macro using kill command and spammed 20 times a second.
It seems to me you're not talking about Cheekys spreadsheet here? I tried looking at the previous posts, but didn't find any link to something that looked as this. If it's not Cheekys, could you please post the link?
#3004SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dalakroth
I'm having problems reproducing the 3:2 results, I'm using the macro below:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Seemingly no matter how hard I hammer the macro I ALWAYS come out with the usual Auto Shot, Steady Shot 1:1 ratio. In addition to this, Cheeky's spreadsheet shows me as getting more dps from a 1:1.x rotation (which admittedly is working well for me).

Is this due to my slow bow? I'm currently using the [Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix] without any haste. Do I need to be using a faster weapon (e.g. [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle]), or stack enough haste to get my bow down to the same speed?
#3005SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Docster View Post
It seems to me you're not talking about Cheekys spreadsheet here? I tried looking at the previous posts, but didn't find any link to something that looked as this. If it's not Cheekys, could you please post the link?
Correct, I'm talking about the shot data, found here.
#3006SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Balle
I used the 3:2 macro last night on keal, and i noticed my dps went up from 1148 (a 1:1 macro) to 1365 (a 3:2 macro) Nothing changed, same gear, I didnt notice any clipping with KC or anything, I was reading back a few pages and i saw ppl talking about KC messing up the auto, but i didnt notice anything, did it get fixed..whats the deal?
#3007SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3steamrice
Anyone else get this? Managed to get below 1.00 speed with bloodlust, quickshots, haste potion, and drums of battle tonight with the 3:2 macro for the hell of it because I was bored and came out with this. If this had been the 1:1 castsequence then I should have missed out on the extra autoshots but this macro manages to squeeze in 2 autoshots in between the global cooldown steady shots and maintain it! Once I lost quickshot it went back to 1:1 though.


03:26'11.780 Steamrice's Auto Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 877
03:26'12.341 Steamrice's Steady Shot crits Rage Winterchill for 2215
03:26'12.649 Steamrice's Auto Shot crits Rage Winterchill for 1912
03:26'13.518 Steamrice's Steady Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 920
03:26'13.760 Steamrice's Auto Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 881
03:26'14.598 Steamrice's Auto Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 824 (54 blocked)
03:26'15.160 Steamrice's Steady Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 813
03:26'15.507 Steamrice's Auto Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 869
03:26'16.342 Steamrice's Auto Shot crits Rage Winterchill for 1906
03:26'16.908 Steamrice's Steady Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 909
03:26'17.300 Steamrice's Auto Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 954
03:26'18.343 Steamrice's Steady Shot crits Rage Winterchill for 2537
03:26'18.651 Steamrice's Auto Shot hits Rage Winterchill for 1007
03:26'19.573 Steamrice's Auto Shot crits Rage Winterchill for 2506
#3008SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kaganar
Originally Posted by Balle View Post
I used the 3:2 macro last night on keal, and i noticed my dps went up from 1148 (a 1:1 macro) to 1365 (a 3:2 macro) Nothing changed, same gear, I didnt notice any clipping with KC or anything, I was reading back a few pages and i saw ppl talking about KC messing up the auto, but i didnt notice anything, did it get fixed..whats the deal?
Which exact macro are you talking about? /script hiding of the error message frame / sfx isn't that important, but where did you place your KC?
#3009SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seatuna
Ok I hope I dont upset anyone with posting this question here, but I need some BM help ,
(1)What is the best macro or a BM spec?
(2)Should I use a wind Serpent? or ravenger?
(3)What Spec would be the best running Heroics?
#3010SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Abbichum
Originally Posted by Seatuna View Post
Ok I hope I dont upset anyone with posting this question here, but I need some BM help ,
(1)What is the best macro or a BM spec?
(2)Should I use a wind Serpent? or ravenger?
(3)What Spec would be the best running Heroics?
there is a specific thread for questions like this, so more theorycraft-/discussion-like threads doesnt get spammed with the same questions over and over.

[Hunter]Help me please
#3011SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kooran
Wasn't sure which thread to put this in, but here goes.

I have always been under the impression that wolfslayer is king dps for bm hunters.

However I won the SSC bow fr omvashj last night, without a real intention of using it, but its better than having it sharded.

Plugged it into Cheekys spreadsheet and it came up with higher dps than using wolfslayer.

Is this because of the spam macro?
#3012SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Balle
Originally Posted by Kaganar View Post
Which exact macro are you talking about? /script hiding of the error message frame / sfx isn't that important, but where did you place your KC?
#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1


Also one quick question, Does a 3:2 macro with say a 2.8 or a 2.9 speed on a gun/bow turn into a 1:1 macro with rapid fire and QS up? sorry if this is stupid questin but i had no idea.

Last edited by Balle : 03/02/08 at 7:51 PM.
#3013SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orsraunia
Originally Posted by Kharthus View Post
I also read somewhere that pets won't get Grip in 2.4. Of course, I hope to not be running Hyjal anymore so it probably won't matter. They should make them immune to Doomfire as well like on Supremus.

And unless it's been fixed, pets don't get the immunity at 10% so they die in about 1/2 sec.
In my opinion, lets start worrying about the new encounter which will be very pet unfriendly, unless pets get immunity to certain bosses' abilities.
#3014SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rifeus
Originally Posted by Balle View Post
#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1


Also one quick question, Does a 3:2 macro with say a 2.8 or a 2.9 speed on a gun/bow turn into a 1:1 macro with rapid fire and QS up? sorry if this is stupid questin but i had no idea lol
That macro is fine, and yes that macro is supposed to turn into a 1:1 rotation if your attackspeed get's quick enough, which it will be with rapidfire for sure.
#3015SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Balle
Originally Posted by Rifeus View Post
That macro is fine, and yes that macro is supposed to turn into a 1:1 rotation if your attackspeed get's quick enough, which it will be with rapidfire for sure.
Hm is that what you want from the 3:2 macro, I'm still a bit lost on the whole 3:2 macro thing.
#3016SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3steamrice
Yes its normal because you aren't forcing a rotation with a sequence. The reason it auto adjusts to 1:1 is because your autoshot timer is at the point where it would shoot after every steady shot. The only downside is mana consumption but thats no problem with a JoW or SP. No matter what though you should end up with more shot output than with a 1:1 castsequence.
#3017SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Balle
so, pretty much to up dps use a 3:2 rather then a 1:1?
#3018SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rifeus
Balle, yeah it's a bit confusing.

You'd want to use the 3:2 macro, but using that macro dosen't mean you actualy have a 3:2 rotation.

At certain speeds, (let's say 2.0 seconds) it's favourable to have a 3:2 rotation, and using the macro will make sure that you use a 3:2 rotation

Using the same macro, at let's say 1.7 sec speed, it will auto adjust to a more favourable rotation (which is 1:1).
#3019SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Balle
Originally Posted by Rifeus View Post
Balle, yeah it's a bit confusing.

You'd want to use the 3:2 macro, but using that macro dosen't mean you actualy have a 3:2 rotation.

At certain speeds, (let's say 2.0 seconds) it's favourable to have a 3:2 rotation, and using the macro will make sure that you use a 3:2 rotation

Using the same macro, at let's say 1.7 sec speed, it will auto adjust to a more favourable rotation (which is 1:1).

Hmmmmmm I understand a bit better now, but its still a bit confusing.
#3020SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Neitor
I came into a discussion the other day with a mage from my former guild about ferocious inspiration. I was pretty sure that the buff is cumulative, meaning that if you have a group with 3 BM hunters in it, you would gain 9% more dmg if all 3 FI are up. But my mage counterpart was convinced that the debuff wasn't cumulative.

So my question to you guys is simply, is the FI cumulative or not? I remeber reading in the past that it was, but I havent seen any hard evidence.

Thanks in advance
#3021SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myul
Pretty simple to prove, you can see it in your charsheet while hovering with your mouse over the damage section, so yes, it's cumulative.
#3022SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dalakroth
Originally Posted by Neitor View Post
I came into a discussion the other day with a mage from my former guild about ferocious inspiration. I was pretty sure that the buff is cumulative, meaning that if you have a group with 3 BM hunters in it, you would gain 9% more dmg if all 3 FI are up. But my mage counterpart was convinced that the debuff wasn't cumulative.

So my question to you guys is simply, is the FI cumulative or not? I remeber reading in the past that it was, but I havent seen any hard evidence.

Thanks in advance
Yes, it is.

Ferocious Inspiration stacks, Expose Weakness and Trueshot Aura do not.
#3023SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Balle View Post
Hmmmmmm I understand a bit better now, but its still a bit confusing.
A 3:2 rotation is the same as a 1:1 with the exception of a clipped auto shot after every three steady shots so it ends up looking like this:




As your speed improves your the time between auto shots is reduced more than the cast time of steady shot until that clipping does not occur and your rotation converts to a 1:1 like this:

#3024SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Teldra
Originally Posted by Neitor View Post
I came into a discussion the other day with a mage from my former guild about ferocious inspiration. I was pretty sure that the buff is cumulative, meaning that if you have a group with 3 BM hunters in it, you would gain 9% more dmg if all 3 FI are up. But my mage counterpart was convinced that the debuff wasn't cumulative.

So my question to you guys is simply, is the FI cumulative or not? I remeber reading in the past that it was, but I havent seen any hard evidence.

Thanks in advance
Not only cumulative as others have pointed out, but it increases all types of damage not just physical as is the case with EW. I managed to tweak raid groups the other night and we had 5 BM hunters in one group for the *almost* constant 15% increase to damage because of the stacking. Mmmmmm
#3025SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Balle
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
A 3:2 rotation is the same as a 1:1 with the exception of a clipped auto shot after every three steady shots so it ends up looking like this:




As your speed improves your the time between auto shots is reduced more than the cast time of steady shot until that clipping does not occur and your rotation converts to a 1:1 like this:


so, why not just use a 1:1 then, sorry for all the retarded questions but i didnt know about the 3:2 till like a week ago.
#3026SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
In a 3:2 rotation because the shots use the /cast command the hidden auto shot timer can be started before the steady shot is fired. With a /castsequence macro the auto shot timer is not started until the steady shot goes off. This results in a higher shot output with a 3:2 macro but, because more of the shots fired are steady shots, it also results in higher mana consumption. The 3:2 rotation is also vulnerable to auto shots being stopped by kill command procs.

I am not totally sold on the 3:2 macro yet myself. With the KC problem it becomes more like 2:1 or 2.5:1. The increase in mana consumption seems to outweigh the increase in DPS.
#3027SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nutteh
Ive recently switched to using the 3:2 macro, from the looks of it it seems to work quite well during periods of mass haste (heroism/dst/haste potion/rapid fire)

This is from our bear run last night, during the first boss I was down to .582 attack speed, meaning I got 2 autoshots before a steady then back onto a autoshot >.1 of a second later
Wow Web Stats (see bottom)

The only major issue is mana consumpion is through the roof =(
#3028SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Steelshine
I am sorry if information regarding this has been posted before, and if it has, I will delete my post.

After seeing all the talk about the G15 keyboard, I finally purchased one for myself. However, I am unsure how to assign the macro keys that will eseentially give me a "controlled" spam for 3:2 or 1:1. I see options how to map keystrokes, but those are only used for one use. The macro option gives the option to record keystrokes and repeat, but does not seem to work in game. Sorry if I'm just being retarded :/


edit : I stopped being retarded and figured it out.

Last edited by Steelshine : 03/03/08 at 11:30 PM.
#3029SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Balle
So, I've been wondering, In 2.4 when the new badge bow come out, is it going to be better to use a 3:2 macro with a 2.8 speed bow rather then say the bow off archi or illidan. Anyone have any ideas?


I got the bow off lady vashj tonight and i was wondering why my 3:2 macro seemd to be cliping, when i was using my gun from alar it was fine but when i picked up the bow and used it it seemd to clip any ideas, thanks.

Last edited by Balle : 03/05/08 at 2:10 AM.
#3030SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3skorziks
Originally Posted by Balle View Post
So, I've been wondering, In 2.4 when the new badge bow come out, is it going to be better to use a 3:2 macro with a 2.8 speed bow rather then say the bow off archi or illidan. Anyone have any ideas?
Cheeky's latest spreadsheet(version 44) has the xbow of relentless strikes in it. Plugging that in, the answer to your question would be Yes, in a 3:2 the badge xbow will put out more dps then archi or illi's weapon. In fact, I believe the new badge xbow in a 3:2 will put out more damage then any pre 2.4 ranged weapon in the game.
#3031SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rachie
Originally Posted by skorziks View Post
Cheeky's latest spreadsheet(version 44) has the xbow of relentless strikes in it. Plugging that in, the answer to your question would be Yes, in a 3:2 the badge xbow will put out more dps then archi or illi's weapon. In fact, I believe the new badge xbow in a 3:2 will put out more damage then any pre 2.4 ranged weapon in the game.
Really, because using several gear setups (all including 4pc t6 bonus which i intend on keeping in some arrangement) I found the 3:2 rotation had higher dps with Bristleblitz Striker than the badge bow. What gear set up are you using? I also used the cookie cutter 41/20/00 build.
#3032SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Driga
I see the same thing on Cheeky's with my gear (3 pc T5, Vengeful Gladiator helm and axe, other T4.5-T5-ish pieces) -- Bristleblitz Striker has higher theoretical DPS with a 3:2 rotation than the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes. The Black Bow of the Betrayer and the S3 bow also come out slightly ahead of the Crossbow, though it's ahead of all other ranged weapons currently in-game.
#3033SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dormonag
Originally Posted by Rachie View Post
Really, because using several gear setups (all including 4pc t6 bonus which i intend on keeping in some arrangement) I found the 3:2 rotation had higher dps with Bristleblitz Striker than the badge bow. What gear set up are you using? I also used the cookie cutter 41/20/00 build.

If you are hit capped and using a 3:2 rotation it would make sense that Bristleblitz Striker and even Illidan's bow would result in higher DPS. Unlike a 1:1 rotation you are not concerned with reducing your auto shot speed to the point where it fits in perfectly with Steady Shot. In a 3:2 rotation, with almost any speed weapon, your auto shot will be delayed and queued to fire after the Steady Shot goes off. Since Steady Shot (and obviously auto shot) will do more "per hit" damage with a slower, harder hitting weapon it makes sense that the slower higher DPS bows will do more damage.
#3034SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Septus
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
In a 3:2 rotation because the shots use the /cast command the hidden auto shot timer can be started before the steady shot is fired. With a /castsequence macro the auto shot timer is not started until the steady shot goes off. This results in a higher shot output with a 3:2 macro but, because more of the shots fired are steady shots, it also results in higher mana consumption. The 3:2 rotation is also vulnerable to auto shots being stopped by kill command procs.

I am not totally sold on the 3:2 macro yet myself. With the KC problem it becomes more like 2:1 or 2.5:1. The increase in mana consumption seems to outweigh the increase in DPS.
I had heard that KC was clipping these shot rotations, but are you saying it's only a problem for 3:2, not the basic 1:1 rotation?
#3035SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Septus View Post
I had heard that KC was clipping these shot rotations, but are you saying it's only a problem for 3:2, not the basic 1:1 rotation?
Yes, that is what my testing has shown. The following ratios were determined using 1000 shots for each weapon speed with each macro.

3:2 macro
Weapon    SS:AS
Spd       Ratio
2.7     3.9 : 2
2.8     3.9 : 2
2.9     4.8 : 2
3.0     5.1 : 2

1:1 macro
Weapon    SS:AS
Spd       Ratio
2.7    0.99 : 1
2.8    0.98 : 1
2.9    0.97 : 1
3.0       1 : 1
I ran the same tests but removed KC from the macro and got these ratios.

3:2 macro
Weapon    SS:AS
Spd       Ratio
2.7     2.9 : 2
2.8       3 : 2
2.9     3.3 : 2
3.0     3.3 : 2

1:1 macro
Weapon    SS:AS
2.7    0.98 : 1
2.8    0.97 : 1
2.9    0.97 : 1
3.0    0.99 : 1
The full results of the testing can be found in this post.
#3036SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KraxisSingular
Then the big question becomes, does the loss of shots per second cost more than the loss of KC? Meaning, could it possibly be worth it to drop KC unless under BW?
#3037SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Azulor
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
Then the big question becomes, does the loss of shots per second cost more than the loss of KC? Meaning, could it possibly be worth it to drop KC unless under BW?
It's not necessary to make the choice really. You can trigger KC by hitting a separate key whenever it is up (be sure to have your interface set up so it notifies you and also the button on a visible bar so you can be sure about CD etc). I've been doing this for awhile now and, while not ideal, it avoids the troubles of continually spamming KC in the macro yet allows you to get KC in fairly often. edit: Well, I guess that assumes it's the spamming that causes the trouble. So if just using KC _always_ drops another shot, the answer may change.

Regarding the x-bow of relentless strikes, I am starting to think we will have to actually test it in-game. The TC is too loose right now with the 3:2 and I don't think the spreadsheet accurately captures it. One issue is that passive haste is needed (at least for me) to achieve a 3:2, beyond quiver/SS, and that's not factored in. Furthermore, I am not sure the spreadsheet is capturing the value of additional passive haste under the 3:2 (I confess to being uncertain as to it's value because I have limited haste gear to test with). Also, active haste plays an important role, especially on tough shorter fights like Teron and (I imagine) Brutallus, and that is also not modelled tightly but certainly is important.

I'm happy to be wrong on this matter, but I am saying I personally am not convinced we know the real answer yet.

Last edited by Azulor : 03/07/08 at 9:55 AM.
#3038SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Azulor View Post
It's not necessary to make the choice really. You can trigger KC by hitting a separate key whenever it is up (be sure to have your interface set up so it notifies you and also the button on a visible bar so you can be sure about CD etc). I've been doing this for awhile now and, while not ideal, it avoids the troubles of continually spamming KC in the macro yet allows you to get KC in fairly often. edit: Well, I guess that assumes it's the spamming that causes the trouble. So if just using KC _always_ drops another shot, the answer may change.
I haven't personally checked it out, but what you are saying is that if I remove KC from any macro I might be using, I can fire it during a Steady Shot cast? If that is so, then I will definately do that, as I have indeed an addon that tells me when my abilities are up (cooldowntimers2, lovely how it flashes, and I also have SCT that will tell it more directly).

I just assumed that since the macro contained it that it needed to be fired during a period of no casts.
#3039SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
I haven't personally checked it out, but what you are saying is that if I remove KC from any macro I might be using, I can fire it during a Steady Shot cast? If that is so, then I will definately do that, as I have indeed an addon that tells me when my abilities are up (cooldowntimers2, lovely how it flashes, and I also have SCT that will tell it more directly).

I just assumed that since the macro contained it that it needed to be fired during a period of no casts.
KC cannot be used during any cast. The best time to use it, since it is not on the GCD, is after an instant (or multi-shot) during the GCD when you cannot cast any other shot that is on the GCD. You just need to make sure they you're not using it during the auto shot cast time as it will reset it.
#3040SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3orsraunia
Originally Posted by skorziks View Post
Cheeky's latest spreadsheet(version 44) has the xbow of relentless strikes in it. Plugging that in, the answer to your question would be Yes, in a 3:2 the badge xbow will put out more dps then archi or illi's weapon. In fact, I believe the new badge xbow in a 3:2 will put out more damage then any pre 2.4 ranged weapon in the game.
Before generalizing, please keep in mind that trolls also get +1% crit with bows.
#3041SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sinestra
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
In a 3:2 rotation because the shots use the /cast command the hidden auto shot timer can be started before the steady shot is fired. With a /castsequence macro the auto shot timer is not started until the steady shot goes off. This results in a higher shot output with a 3:2 macro but, because more of the shots fired are steady shots, it also results in higher mana consumption. The 3:2 rotation is also vulnerable to auto shots being stopped by kill command procs.

I am not totally sold on the 3:2 macro yet myself. With the KC problem it becomes more like 2:1 or 2.5:1. The increase in mana consumption seems to outweigh the increase in DPS.
I'm not sold either. Not even close. Your research and tests prompted me to go out and try it on my own, on the Servants of Allistarj in Blasted Lands. I just wasn't seeing the great gains that have been theorized (and heck, even proven on Dr. Boom) on my SSC runs, so I wanted to head out there and test it out with my gear, with some slight variants.

So here I am...Popped aspect of the Viper, gear you see me logout in (slightly different than raid, haste stays the same)Clicky for Armory!. Superior Mana Oil for insurance. Using Sunfury, a final shot speed of 1.98 (98 haste rating), and Violet Eye Ammo (what can I say, I run expensive tests).

Test runs for 2 minutes on the dot each time. Spam speed of 2:3 macro is at least 5 to 10 times per second. Latency 26ms average.

Intended
Ratio ____ AS:SS __ KC _ Total Shots_ DPS__ Mana Consumed
2:3 _______45:80 -----17------125 -------1251------- 6000
1:1 _______63:62------20------125 -------1355------- 4400
2:3 _______44:79------20------123 -------1295------- 6100
1:1 _______63:62------18------125 -------1240------- 4500
2:3 _______46:79------18------125 -------1284------- 6100

And there ya have it. Total shots across the board? All roughly the same in the 2 minute timeframe. DPS didn't fluctuate much either...mostly predictable fluctuations you'd expect going from one fight to the next. But I averaged a good 1500 Mana consumed extra with the "2:3" macro. Ouch.

So, I test again. This time, without Kill Command:

ntended
Ratio ____ AS:SS __ KC _ Total Shots_ DPS__ Mana Consumed
2:3 _______53:76------XX------129 -------1231------- 4200
1:1 _______63:62------XX------125 -------1195------- 3200
2:3 _______52:77------XX------129 -------1160------- 4100

Much closer to 2:3 without Kill Command. Total Shots remain about the same, with 4 extras on the 2:3's. Naturally, more mana conserved all around. Loss of DPS though, heh. Those 4 extra shots just couldn't make up for the 18-20 KC's done in the previous test I suppose.

Removed Haste gear, replaced with Legacy and Merciless Gloves. Kill Command back on again.

2:3 _______43:83------18------126 -------1340------- 6500-------------2.02 Shot Speed
2:3 _______41:84------20------125 -------1310------- 6600-------------2.05 Shot Speed

Big ouch. Straight up 1:2 ratio there, again 125 total shots fired average. Slowing my shot speed killed my mana pool even worse than before.

I'm definitely not convinced that somebody at my gear level (starting SSC, mostly 2.3 Badge, Z'A, and Kara), especially running a shot speed between 1.9-2.05 is going to see much gains at all from utilizing the 2:3 Macro. Now, somebody decked out in some Tier 5 or Tier 6 gear, utilizing 4 piece bonuses, get a nice bonus to their Steady Shot damage. Not only that, Steady Shot's directly affected by Weapon Damage, so the slower hard hitting 95+ DPS weapons are going to make more steady's being fired shine brightly. I'm pretty convinced that many are looking at their WWS reports, seeing a general 2:3 Steady Auto average, which is, in reality, a mix of 1:1's with haste procs and activations, and probably lots of 2:1's and 5:2's all rolled up into a single Boss encounter.

I put up a post about it over in the official WoW forums. It was deleted. Blizzard got a little delete happy this last evening, sparked by all the spam about %,%,% Arena issues and Megatf's recent ban from the game...my post had nothing to do with either, and it was canned, too. I think some forum moderator was just so mad at us in general, they started deleting helpful posts. So, I remade it. WoW Forums -> 1:1 vs. 2:3, is the latter truly worth it?

This is all giving me a headache, and I need some sleep. Back tomorrow, heh.
#3042SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kaladian
Sinestra your correct that at your level of gear you will not gain much in terms of DPS by going to a 3:2 rotation. Once you get your 4 piece T6 along with the BT trinket the 3:2 rotation really shines. The 10% steadyshot damage along with the 300 rap proc of the trinket adds a good bit of DPS for sure. That is the problem with BM right now it is so good at the top level gear because of the synergy of those bonuses along with the 20% haste from the BM Tree. I shouldnt say problem with BM spec but problem with MM and SV specs right now is they can not compare with 3:2 rotation, 10% SS bonus, about 200-250 difference in pet dps and the 20% haste buff.
#3043SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stylfan
[*]shot rotation macro's;

Introduction:
At the moment there exist several shot rotation macros with Steady shot and Auto Shot. It is considered the most efficient Rotation for BM Hunters because of their high attackspeed. Kill Command is included into those macros for an additional DPS boost at low mana costs.

If mana is none of a problem (f.e. with SP in your group), Beastmasters can also run what I'd like to call "Full out Rotations" with aditional Arcane Shot and Multi Shot.


Spammable Makros:

Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Explanation: With the new "weird" shot mechanics (you can cast specials during the hidden autoshot casttime), this macro pulls off more steadyshots than autoshots. The result is a higher amount of shots per second, higher manausage per second, higher DPS. 3:2 rotation.


Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Explanation: This makro always waits for autoshot to !go off! until the next steady shot is cast. Result: True 1:1 rota, becomes more efficient with increasing amount of haste.


Beast Mastery Steady, Arcane, Multi Rotation (Ridiculously High Mana Usage, Very High DPS) Especialy good on trash with no active CC.

...placeholder.....should be some castsequence makro..... unfortunately can't recreate it as I'm currently not at my WoW Computer


Non Spammable Makros:

...placeholder ...


Sources:

link xy


Credits(at the end of the whole post):

True masters of the Beast are: ......

----------------------------------------------------
Alle the info has been taken from this thread so far. Feel free to copy paste, improve and correct the bad language ;-). This should just be an impression of how it could look like.[/quote]


<-- This was written on page 112 some time ago. Has there been any update or anything? And in that case, where?

But to get down to the point..
I Think i got through the 120 pages but i did some crafting both before and after.

So..

Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
IPopped aspect of the Viper
In co-orporatiopn with our beloved dr. boom i found that the 1:1 with viper is better than the 1:1 with AotH and the 3:2 with Aot-viper(using castsequence button spam on mousewheel), but the 3:2 with AotH topped both, so i would have wished that you had extended ur reasech to the use of AotH also.

Can any1 confirm the following.
Using 1:1 grants highest dps with AotV??
Using 3:2 grants highest dps with AotH, and outdps's the 1:1 AotV???


One more question though, is regarding Cheeky's spreadsheet.
Tapping in all my gear, raidbuffs and so forth i wind up having a total dps output of somehow 1200 (end of ssc/tk gear, using ravager and spamming 3:2 on mousewheel) But when we engage the bosses i rarely go all the way up there, sometimes i even dodge under 1000dps mark, mostly im around 1000-1100 which is kinda far from the 1200-1300 cheeky's give me.

The question is in this case, is anyone experiencing the same? Am i doing something wrong?

Thanks for the materail in here, your efforts and your time.

Regards
Zaroc
#3044SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Huntemup
Originally Posted by Stylfan View Post
-Snip-

One more question though, is regarding Cheeky's spreadsheet.
Tapping in all my gear, raidbuffs and so forth i wind up having a total dps output of somehow 1200 (end of ssc/tk gear, using ravager and spamming 3:2 on mousewheel) But when we engage the bosses i rarely go all the way up there, sometimes i even dodge under 1000dps mark, mostly im around 1000-1100 which is kinda far from the 1200-1300 cheeky's give me.

The question is in this case, is anyone experiencing the same? Am i doing something wrong?

Thanks for the materail in here, your efforts and your time.

Regards
Zaroc
Lag, movement time, spell pushback, engagement time, target swapping, etc. All help to hamper your "ideal" dps setup. Typically you can achieve 90-95% of what a spreadsheet gives you, assuming you are fairly skilled, and have a good connection.

All that said, you might have the bosses in at lvl 70 instead of 73, or some other math error.
#3045SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rienfleche
I have two questions...

First and foremost, I had once heard that the Barrel-Blade Longrifle is the highest-DPS weapon (pre 2.4) for a 1:1 shot rotation and, as such, I've been using one for several months, but I see virtually no discussion of 2.6 speed weapons here. Has more recent analysis made it not worthy of consideration or something?

Also, as I am using the Longrifle and thus have a very quick attack speed (1.88) even without haste procs (I have IAotH and the DST), I use the 1:1 macro to reliably use Kill Command without the Auto Shot clipping that occurs when macroing KC in the 3:2 rotation. Is there any way to macro in ammo switching for Steady/Auto with the 1:1 /castsequence, or should I just resign myself to either using expensive ammo constantly or switching to the 3:2 macro?
#3046SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sinestra
I'm going to head back out there tonight and run the test again using Aspect of the Hawk for the hell of it. I highly doubt I'll have a full mana pool using the 2:3 for 2 minutes during the test, heheh. I can have a buddy toss AB on me, heh. Using a pot will clip shots and skew a test!

Anyhow, the reason I did it with AotV though, last night, is to control the speed to get a real result of the 2:3's output at my speeds, and to show that Kill Command does, indeed, push back Auto Shot so much so as not to justify the extra mana consumption.

It's the total number of shots fired in a 2 minute controlled test that is the main point of it all. When a 2:3, with Kill Command proccing, turns in closer to 2:1 results and the SAME number of shots as a 1:1 generally did(unless less Kill Commands proc), then the justification just isn't there.

IAotH will make things too darned random, in my opinion.
#3047SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tenkai
Why is it that when I plug any gear level (even high-end BT gear with 4 Gronnstalker bonus) into Cheeky's Spreadsheet with, say, Bristleblitz on a 3:2 rotation, then change nothing about the gear but plug in Barrel-Blade Longrifle with a 1:1 rotation, the Barrel-Blade and 1:1 outclass the 3:2 rotation every time (and by a fair amount too, 15 or so DPS)? Is this an error in the spreadsheet or something having to do with it not representing shot rotations correctly?

This makes me wonder if a moderate amount of passive haste gear coupled with a 1:1 rotation and a medium-slow weapon like Crossbow of Relentless Strikes would outclass a slow weapon like Bristleblitz, no passive haste gear, and a 2:3 rotation. Any history of people trying this? When I spreadsheet both setups, they come out damn near even, though I gotta think there's something wrong with the spreadsheet. Cheeky's seems really iffy about paper doll attack speed and how it affects rotations.

Plus, in my experience, a 1:1 rotation makes it a lot easier to thread in KC without clipping your auto (one of the several advantages the cleaner 1:1 rot has over the sloppy 2:3).




(posted in the spreadsheet thread as well because the spreadsheet questions apply there, though the theorycrafting applies here)
#3048SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Enova
Originally Posted by Tenkai View Post
Why is it that when I plug any gear level (even high-end BT gear with 4 Gronnstalker bonus) into Cheeky's Spreadsheet with, say, Bristleblitz on a 3:2 rotation, then change nothing about the gear but plug in Barrel-Blade Longrifle with a 1:1 rotation, the Barrel-Blade and 1:1 outclass the 3:2 rotation every time (and by a fair amount too, 15 or so DPS)? Is this an error in the spreadsheet or something having to do with it not representing shot rotations correctly?

This makes me wonder if a moderate amount of passive haste gear coupled with a 1:1 rotation and a medium-slow weapon like Crossbow of Relentless Strikes would outclass a slow weapon like Bristleblitz, no passive haste gear, and a 2:3 rotation. Any history of people trying this? When I spreadsheet both setups, they come out damn near even, though I gotta think there's something wrong with the spreadsheet. Cheeky's seems really iffy about paper doll attack speed and how it affects rotations.
No, that's not an error you're getting. Barrel-blade is just that good, and it's an indication of how strange hunter mechanics are. And a good example of just how much weapon speed matters. Pretty much how an ilevel 100ish green weapon from the AH was better than some epics for shamans in the offhand slot, except shamans got that fixed.
The real secret of Barrel-Blade is its efficiency; it cuts down the time between steady shot casting and autoshot to a minimum. Weapon dps is really a secondary factor here, at most. In theory if you could find a new way to get a lower dead time, you'd get a new best weapon. Or, if the weapon stats gap was significant enough.

Unless we're talking about a 1:1.5 rotation, which is unreasonable for a BM, the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes should outclass Bristleblitz anyway, because of said lower dead times, given the same amount of haste. Theoretically, haste would benefit Bristleblitz more, because, at, say 20% haste, the crossbow would lose 0.56 seconds off the shot timers, and Bristleblitz should lose 0.60 seconds. the problem with theory is there's a limit (global cooldowns, passive haste availability on gear, etc) to how much haste you can make use of, and that limit doesn't yet allow for Bristleblitz to recover the lost ground, it still keeps things pretty close. Another thing that will keep the results close is the 4/5 tier 6 bonus. Again, by a small margin, that will favor Bristleblitz, regardless of haste, and scales slightly with AP in favor of it.

Practically, though, that moderate amount of haste you're talking about chunks a lot of your other stats off. Especially hit rating, which there's a massive shortage of in current tier 6 and equivalent gear. Now, hit cap takes priority over haste, so you need to be hit capped first. Assuming you have 4/5 tier 6, the only slots you can actually get +hit rating on are the feet weapons, a trinket slot, two rings and a necklace. Seeing as you want to keep 4/5 Gronnstalker on the table, you barely have enough items to get your hit cap with. And seeing as + hit rating and + haste rating rarely come together on the same item (do they ever, actually?), I'd say that stacking haste is not a very realistic option. Strangely enough, a Barrel-blade would not be out of place with a 3:2 rotation either, and it's still highly competitive. Without looking at the spreadsheets, I'd value it above Bristleblitz and slightly below Relentless.
#3049SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lazybum
Is there a such thing as too much haste? Currently I have 64 haste from BT craftable shoulders, bracers and I am using SSC bow (just killed vashj for 1st time last night). My bow speed is 2.09. Come patch 2.4 i plan on getting the axe and chest piece with badges as well as im going to try to get the boe epic craftables from the JC with haste on them, but before i put in all the work is there such a thing as too much haste?
#3050SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tenkai
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
Practically, though, that moderate amount of haste you're talking about chunks a lot of your other stats off.
yeah, it really hurts and it's the only thing keeping a hasted Crossbow of Relentless Strikes running 1:1 from completely outclassing its 2:3 counterpart without haste gear, but I guess that's the trade off innit

Originally Posted by Enova View Post
Especially hit rating, which there's a massive shortage of in current tier 6 and equivalent gear. Now, hit cap takes priority over haste, so you need to be hit capped first. Assuming you have 4/5 tier 6, the only slots you can actually get +hit rating on are the feet weapons, a trinket slot, two rings and a necklace. Seeing as you want to keep 4/5 Gronnstalker on the table, you barely have enough items to get your hit cap with. And seeing as + hit rating and + haste rating rarely come together on the same item (do they ever, actually?), I'd say that stacking haste is not a very realistic option.
the new 2.4 badge fist weapon has both hit and haste: Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality - Items - World of Warcraft

Then with Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Softstep Boots of Tracking, Tsunami Talisman, the hit on the crossbow, and hit gems in yellow sockets (don't even need to break socket bonuses) you can get over 99% hit rate on level 73. That's without a +hit ring or Biznick's Scope which is fortunately an option on my server. This is all while maintaining 4/5 Gronnstalker's and with a passive haste of 196 (that's including the haste neck off Brutallus, though nothing else from Sunwell).

Unless there's a good reason to advise against this kind of setup, I'm going to go for it because I really like a 1:1 rotation in its ideal circumstances. This character's a reroll and my guild is progressing really quickly so all the gear I have planned is definitely within reach.

edit: Still be nice to hear if someone has tried something like this before, and how it stacks up in reality rather than on the spreadsheet.
#3051SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fimbo
Originally Posted by Stylfan View Post
Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Higher Mana Usage, Higher DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Explanation: With the new "weird" shot mechanics (you can cast specials during the hidden autoshot casttime), this macro pulls off more steadyshots than autoshots. The result is a higher amount of shots per second, higher manausage per second, higher DPS. 3:2 rotation.
I always use this macro above. As oppossed to the one below:

Originally Posted by Stylfan View Post
Beast Mastery Steady Shot Shot Rotation (Lower Mana Usage, Lower DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Explanation: This makro always waits for autoshot to !go off! until the next steady shot is cast. Result: True 1:1 rota, becomes more efficient with increasing amount of haste.
Question: Am i reading this post correctly? That the top macro has to be constently spammed, ie by using a programmable keyboard to achieve it's full potential?

I have no desire to use such a keyboard, I use a special natural keyboard (and other wierd stuff) as I suffer from RSI, To DPS I manually hit the macro during every auto-shot, twice if kc is up...

Working in this manual way, would using the later so called 'pure' 1:1 macro make more sense? I can't see how i get a different number of shots - but maybe a math person can clarify?
#3052SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ozbert
(Removed)

Last edited by Ozbert : 03/11/08 at 9:10 AM. Reason: Potentially useless
#3053SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khassandra
Originally Posted by Fimbo View Post
Question: Am i reading this post correctly? That the top macro has to be constently spammed, ie by using a programmable keyboard to achieve it's full potential?

I have no desire to use such a keyboard, I use a special natural keyboard (and other wierd stuff) as I suffer from RSI, To DPS I manually hit the macro during every auto-shot, twice if kc is up...
You don't need a programmable keyboard, you can use the Blizzard Key Binding Options in-game to bind functions to any key. I use a laptop and have keybindings on my keyboard, but use my mouse buttons for critical things like my shot rotation, pet attack macro, feign death, etc. Stuff that needs to be hit fast, as my reaction time otherwise tend to be a little slow.
#3054SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fimbo
Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
You don't need a programmable keyboard, you can use the Blizzard Key Binding Options in-game to bind functions to any key. I use a laptop and have keybindings on my keyboard, but use my mouse buttons for critical things like my shot rotation, pet attack macro, feign death, etc. Stuff that needs to be hit fast, as my reaction time otherwise tend to be a little slow.
Mmm... Sorry to labour the point, but as i am understanding this i need to spam the macro multiple times a second, is that correct? If so, can i set up to do that in game? It doesn't sound to me like the sort of thing Blizzard is going to put in there standard UI.

I bind everything to a keyboard, i can't use a mouse at all (rather i use wierd joystick thing when necassary) so binding isn't an issue - Bongos (my UI addon) makes it very simple in fact.

(Of course this shouldn't be necessary at all - but that's a different point.)
#3055SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Fimbo View Post
Mmm... Sorry to labour the point, but as i am understanding this i need to spam the macro multiple times a second, is that correct? If so, can i set up to do that in game? It doesn't sound to me like the sort of thing Blizzard is going to put in there standard UI.

I bind everything to a keyboard, i can't use a mouse at all (rather i use wierd joystick thing when necassary) so binding isn't an issue - Bongos (my UI addon) makes it very simple in fact.

(Of course this shouldn't be necessary at all - but that's a different point.)
The Belkin n52 (and the newer version of it) and the G15 keyboard allow for adjustable key repeats. I believe there is also some macro software out there called AutoHotKey (or something like that) that also allows for this.

Edit: My n52 spams the /cast macro every .10 seconds.

Last edited by Bikiniwax : 03/11/08 at 11:18 AM.
#3056SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Khassandra
Originally Posted by Fimbo View Post
Mmm... Sorry to labour the point, but as i am understanding this i need to spam the macro multiple times a second, is that correct? If so, can i set up to do that in game? It doesn't sound to me like the sort of thing Blizzard is going to put in there standard UI.
Well I don't spam it anywhere near that fast and it seems to work pretty well. You can't set it up to do it automatically though, you have to repeatedly mash the button yourself. That's why I have mine on my mouse on the thumb button, easy for me to hit pretty fast (yes, I did see that you don't use a mouse, just saying...).
#3057SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fimbo
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
I believe there is also some macro software out there called AutoHotKey (or something like that) that also allows for this.
Worth looking into at if i need to go this way - thanks.

And on the first point, do we have an explanation somewhere on the boards that explains what the mathmatical bonus of spamming this key (as opposed to weaving) provides?
#3058SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3zoidfarb
Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
Well I don't spam it anywhere near that fast and it seems to work pretty well. You can't set it up to do it automatically though, you have to repeatedly mash the button yourself. That's why I have mine on my mouse on the thumb button, easy for me to hit pretty fast (yes, I did see that you don't use a mouse, just saying...).
I'm always missing autoshots whenever I'm spamming the macro. Is it because it's bound to my mousewheel or what?
#3059SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3jurgen
Originally Posted by zoidfarb View Post
I'm always missing autoshots whenever I'm spamming the macro. Is it because it's bound to my mousewheel or what?
When you say missing autoshots, do you mean they miss more when you use the macro? That's ridiculous so I'll assume you're trying to say autoshot isn't firing because you're spamming the macro too fast. This problem is probably the result of the blizzard default ui. If you (and your pet) are spamming the screen with damage numbers (As a BM hunter and his pet are wont to do), the default ui just filters out some of those attacks because it can't handle all of it at once. In other words, you won't see them flash on your screen, you'll only see them in your combat log. There are mods you can download which will display all the damage you deal as numbers above your target's head, if it bothers you that much.

To make absolutely sure you're not "missing" auto shots, you should download quartz or attack bar timer which will give you a bar that fills and resets every time your autoshot fires and lands.
#3060SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
grizz
Originally Posted by Tenkai View Post
yeah, it really hurts and it's the only thing keeping a hasted Crossbow of Relentless Strikes running 1:1 from completely outclassing its 2:3 counterpart without haste gear, but I guess that's the trade off innit



the new 2.4 badge fist weapon has both hit and haste: Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality - Items - World of Warcraft

Then with Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Softstep Boots of Tracking, Tsunami Talisman, the hit on the crossbow, and hit gems in yellow sockets (don't even need to break socket bonuses) you can get over 99% hit rate on level 73. That's without a +hit ring or Biznick's Scope which is fortunately an option on my server. This is all while maintaining 4/5 Gronnstalker's and with a passive haste of 196 (that's including the haste neck off Brutallus, though nothing else from Sunwell).

Unless there's a good reason to advise against this kind of setup, I'm going to go for it because I really like a 1:1 rotation in its ideal circumstances. This character's a reroll and my guild is progressing really quickly so all the gear I have planned is definitely within reach.

edit: Still be nice to hear if someone has tried something like this before, and how it stacks up in reality rather than on the spreadsheet.
I went through last night, with my current gear and gear that I will be picking up come Sunwell and figured my stats based on the following gear: Shivering Felspine (Felmyst polearm), Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Cluth of Demise (Sunwell neck), Gronnstalker's Spaulders, Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape, Carapace of Sun and Shadow (BoP LWing), Gronnstalker's Bracers, Gloves of Immortal Dusk (BoE LW), Gronnstalker's Belt, Legging of Immortal Night (Felmyst Legs), Gronnstalker's Boots, Band of Ruinous Delight (Eredar Twins Ring), Signet of Primal Wrath, and then the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes. Trinket slots are negligible, because with some luck I should get a Berzerker's Call and a Madness before 2.4. Obviously, I'm still going to keep 4 piece t6.

That totals out to: 168 Hit (without the need to gem for hit (minus 30 hit if you aren't a LWer)) and 143 Haste (which brings me to a 1.86 auto shot (minus 38 haste if you aren't LWer)). The only thing that is mildly concerning is my Mana level (5368 unbuffed), because of the fact that I'm sacrificing some Int on my chest and gloves for pure DPS stats (crit, hit, armor penetration, etc). Keep in mind this is just a preliminary set, and I will need to tweak it so I can get some more Int, and lose some hit so I'm not wasting ipts on unnecessary hit. But, with just drops you can get to the magic 142 hit (replace the Stormrage Signet Ring for the Band of Ruinous Delight or something) and still have what is about the right amount of haste for me personally, considering my connection, my computer, all that jazz. Just something I noticed while messing around with Cheeky's.

On a side note: What are peoples thoughts with that preliminary list?

Last edited by grizz : 03/11/08 at 1:46 PM.
#3061SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3zoidfarb
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
words
I don't mean that my autoshots end up missing the mob, they never actually go off while I'm spamming the macro. It'll go steady, auto and then steady and steady if I'm spamming it.
#3062SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Chulak
Originally Posted by zoidfarb View Post
I don't mean that my autoshots end up missing the mob, they never actually go off while I'm spamming the macro. It'll go steady, auto and then steady and steady if I'm spamming it.
That's the 2:3 macro working as intended . I've seen a noticeable overall increase in DPS vs. the 1:1 (castsequence) macro, though it is much more mana intensive. The danger of blindly spamming (or using an autorepeating keyboard) is that with a haste proc active you can actually see 4 or 5 steadies go off without an auto, at which point your DPS is taking a hit. I just revert to single hits of the macro to give me a straight 1:1 while hasted, then return to spamming after the haste proc has run its course. You should see steady/auto/steady/steady/auto/repeat when this macro is working optimally.
#3063SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Septus
Hmm, I thought that even with a 1:1 macro, you had to spam it pretty quickly, like perhaps at least twice a second or more to make sure that you maximize dps.
#3064SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Septus View Post
Hmm, I thought that even with a 1:1 macro, you had to spam it pretty quickly, like perhaps at least twice a second or more to make sure that you maximize dps.
It doesn't need to be spammed. The castsequesnce just ensures that even in a situation when you are spamming it, an auto shot will be fired after each steady.
#3065SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Septus
But for the sequence to be optimal, it needs to be triggered at a precise time right? And since you can't have perfect timing, you would need to spam it?
#3066SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Enova View Post
No, that's not an error you're getting. Barrel-blade is just that good, and it's an indication of how strange hunter mechanics are. And a good example of just how much weapon speed matters. Pretty much how an ilevel 100ish green weapon from the AH was better than some epics for shamans in the offhand slot, except shamans got that fixed.
The real secret of Barrel-Blade is its efficiency; it cuts down the time between steady shot casting and autoshot to a minimum. Weapon dps is really a secondary factor here, at most. In theory if you could find a new way to get a lower dead time, you'd get a new best weapon. Or, if the weapon stats gap was significant enough.

Unless we're talking about a 1:1.5 rotation, which is unreasonable for a BM, the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes should outclass Bristleblitz anyway, because of said lower dead times, given the same amount of haste. Theoretically, haste would benefit Bristleblitz more, because, at, say 20% haste, the crossbow would lose 0.56 seconds off the shot timers, and Bristleblitz should lose 0.60 seconds. the problem with theory is there's a limit (global cooldowns, passive haste availability on gear, etc) to how much haste you can make use of, and that limit doesn't yet allow for Bristleblitz to recover the lost ground, it still keeps things pretty close. Another thing that will keep the results close is the 4/5 tier 6 bonus. Again, by a small margin, that will favor Bristleblitz, regardless of haste, and scales slightly with AP in favor of it.

Practically, though, that moderate amount of haste you're talking about chunks a lot of your other stats off. Especially hit rating, which there's a massive shortage of in current tier 6 and equivalent gear. Now, hit cap takes priority over haste, so you need to be hit capped first. Assuming you have 4/5 tier 6, the only slots you can actually get +hit rating on are the feet weapons, a trinket slot, two rings and a necklace. Seeing as you want to keep 4/5 Gronnstalker on the table, you barely have enough items to get your hit cap with. And seeing as + hit rating and + haste rating rarely come together on the same item (do they ever, actually?), I'd say that stacking haste is not a very realistic option. Strangely enough, a Barrel-blade would not be out of place with a 3:2 rotation either, and it's still highly competitive. Without looking at the spreadsheets, I'd value it above Bristleblitz and slightly below Relentless.
Cheeky's sheet slightly overvalues weapon speed. It is an excellent model for everything else but weapon speed and the subtle interaction of the new "latency fix" code and a variable latency (and potentially a spammed macro or human reaction time) is hard to nail down with any confidence. Not to mention if you throw in Kill Command all bets are off.

I would suggest you save some of your logs from a boss fight and do some analysis yourself to see what kind of time between Auto Shots is typical for you with a /castsequence, with a 3:2 macro and with manual timing. Try some with Kill Command and some without. This will give you a much better idea of how weapon speed will come into play for your particular situation.

I know for me the sheet says that the faster weapons in the game will do more damage than my Legionkiller, but my experience and analysis of my own logs tells me otherwise. I've done some limited testing in boss fights and looking at the WWS after the fact backs up my predictions.

This isn't something as simple as faster is better. Although for me the new badge crossbow in 2.4 is a pretty decent upgrade and will tide me over till I get a shot at the legendary. (After Trohck, Zakazul and Edje, at 5% per kill, 1 kill per week, I'll get one in about 80 weeks!!!)

P.S. FU RNG!!!
#3067SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tenkai
Originally Posted by grizz View Post
I went through last night, with my current gear and gear that I will be picking up come Sunwell and figured my stats based on the following gear: Shivering Felspine (Felmyst polearm), Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Cluth of Demise (Sunwell neck), Gronnstalker's Spaulders, Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape, Carapace of Sun and Shadow (BoP LWing), Gronnstalker's Bracers, Gloves of Immortal Dusk (BoE LW), Gronnstalker's Belt, Legging of Immortal Night (Felmyst Legs), Gronnstalker's Boots, Band of Ruinous Delight (Eredar Twins Ring), Signet of Primal Wrath, and then the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes. Trinket slots are negligible, because with some luck I should get a Berzerker's Call and a Madness before 2.4. Obviously, I'm still going to keep 4 piece t6.

That totals out to: 168 Hit (without the need to gem for hit (minus 30 hit if you aren't a LWer)) and 143 Haste (which brings me to a 1.86 auto shot (minus 38 haste if you aren't LWer)). The only thing that is mildly concerning is my Mana level (5368 unbuffed), because of the fact that I'm sacrificing some Int on my chest and gloves for pure DPS stats (crit, hit, armor penetration, etc). Keep in mind this is just a preliminary set, and I will need to tweak it so I can get some more Int, and lose some hit so I'm not wasting ipts on unnecessary hit. But, with just drops you can get to the magic 142 hit (replace the Stormrage Signet Ring for the Band of Ruinous Delight or something) and still have what is about the right amount of haste for me personally, considering my connection, my computer, all that jazz. Just something I noticed while messing around with Cheeky's.

On a side note: What are peoples thoughts with that preliminary list?
It's true there's a lot of really nice haste gear in Sunwell. Blizzard seems to be almost forcing it on us (hint hint?).

As for your setup: Personally I would want a bit more haste to bring the autoshot timer down a touch more. For me, with my computer and connection, the sweet spot for paperdoll speed is about 1.75, so the closest I can get to that without completely wrecking my other stats, the better. And this becomes even easier given all the really nice haste loot from Sunwell.

Mana shouldn't really be a concern. Running a 1:1 macro, even one this fast, and even with threading in arcane or multi and keeping hawk up, you shouldn't go OOM as long as you've got fel mana pots and demonic runes (and usually you don't even need to use both, for some bosses you can get away with just a super mana pot). Mana oil and mageblood pots couldn't hurt, either.
#3068SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xEw
Since here was some talking about hit-rating i wanted to ask something:
I'm never missing a mob. I did vashj in pvp gear(accidentally) where i have about 100hitrating and got no single miss displayed. I get misses shown pink in the chatwindow (combat messages -> your misses) and i can't remember ever gotten one. I always recognize the misses when im in melee fight with a mob. But never in ranged fight.
I also talked with another hunter in my guild and he completely abandoned hitrating. He is atm raiding with about 85hitrating and does about exactly my damage(i took najentus to compare, should be a very good comparison because totally static fight), sometimes more. I have 159hitrating(i know too much, but the best combination with the items i possess according to cheekys) We are both using spammacro + autohotkey, so there should be quite less difference.
So the question: Is it just a displaybug from blizzard or is it not possible for a hunter to miss? second has to be ridiculous, because everyone here uses cheekys spreadsheet(as i do) and theres hitrating completely involved. Theres probably a quite easy explaination for this. I would like to know it :-)

thanks
#3069SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Acearan
Ok so recently I’ve just adopted the 3:2 shot rotation

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I am just wondering is there a macro that will allow me to use my arcane shot and mult into a 3:2 rotation? I tried using this macro but I lost about 100 Dps vs. dr boom. (I took multi out for obvious reasons)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, multi shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

I know u can do this and theoretically (spelling?) it would bring Dps but I’m not seeing it. If I was to do arcane and multi manually how would I order my shots to make this possible? Thanks in advance
#3070SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nosti
3:2 rotation analysed

I'm BM specced using [Serpent Spine Longbow] and I recently started gathering some Haste gear since I thought that it would be benefitial. I bought the pattern of [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] from the AH since I thought more haste would be better with my BM spec. So I crafted the shoulders but only afterwards I started thinking about the 3:2 mechanic and I found out that my shoulders were actually wasted for that rotation.

I will try to explain how I think the 3:2 rotation works, what the deciding factors are and what the max amount of haste is that is useful.

I'm using the following spam-macro:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot

When using this macro you will typically fire more Steady Shot than Auto Shots, but most important is that the total amount of shots (Steady+Auto) is higher than if you would use the old-school 1:1 rotation. When I spam this macro I find out that I fire 1 Steady Shot every +- 1.6 seconds (simply run tests for 2 minutes Hunter's mark duration and count the amount of Steady Shots). This 1.6 seconds is due to 1.5 second global cooldown + 0.1 second reaction/lag time.

The Steady Shot every 1.6s are you could say the 'framework' of the shot rotation. As opposed to the 1:1 rotation where the 'framework' is actually the Auto Shots and you're weaving your Steady in between the Auto Shots. In the 3:2 rotation your Steady Shots are the 'framework' and your Auto Shots fall in between the Steady Shot.

So let's now try to illustrate the rotation with some real numbers.

BM spec, [Serpent Spine Longbow], Quiver bring my Auto Shot speed on 2.17s and my Steady Shot casting time on 1.09s.

0.00 Auto Shot
0.00 Steady Shot starts casting
1.09 Steady Shot fires
1.50 GCD ends
1.60 Steady Shot starts casting
2.69 Steady Shot fires
2.69 Auto Shot fires (next Auto Shot will fire at 4.89s)
3.10 GCD ends
3.20 Steady Shot starts casting
4.29 Steady Shot fires
4.70 GCD ends
4.80 Steady Shot starts casting
4.89 Auto Shot fires

The important part is the part in red. It shows when the Auto Shot will fire, and as you can see, the Steady Shot will start casting before the Auto Shot can fire. Conclusion: With the setup I used in the calculation a 3:2 rotation cannot be obtained with the spam macro.

NOW what if we add a little Haste rating?

BM spec, [Serpent Spine Longbow], Quiver + 72 Haste rating bring my Auto Shot speed on 2.08s and my Steady Shot casting time on 1.04s.

How will the rotation look like?

0.00 Auto Shot
0.00 Steady Shot starts casting
1.04 Steady Shot fires
1.50 GCD ends
1.60 Steady Shot starts casting
2.64 Steady Shot fires
2.64 Auto Shot fires (next Auto Shot will fire at 4.72s)
3.10 GCD ends
3.20 Steady Shot starts casting
4.24 Steady Shot fires
4.70 GCD ends
4.72 Auto Shot fires
4.80 Steady Shot starts casting

WHAT HAPPENED THERE???

Due to the slightly faster Auto Shot and slightly faster casting of Steady Shot, the Auto Shot in red manages to shoot RIGHT before the Steady Shot! So you basicly gain a shot by using a little haste. So how to determine how much haste you need?

SteadyShot casting time + AutoShot speed < 3.2s

In the first case we get 3.26, so no 3:2 possible.
Second case we get 3.12 so 3:2 is possible.

I hope this solves some mysteries.

So now the next question is what happens if you keep increasing your haste? (or what happens if IAotH procs?) Would it be possible to get to a 4:3 rotation?

Let's have a look at the possibilities (we use same stats as in second case):

0.00 Auto Shot
0.00 Steady Shot starts casting
1.04 Steady Shot fires
1.50 GCD ends
1.60 Steady Shot starts casting
2.64 Steady Shot fires
2.64 Auto Shot fires (next Auto Shot will fire at 4.72s)
3.10 GCD ends
3.20 Steady Shot starts casting
4.24 Steady Shot fires
4.70 GCD ends
4.72 Auto Shot fires (next Auto Shot will fire at 6.80s)
4.80 Steady Shot starts casting
5.84 Steady Shot fires
6.30 GCD ends
6.40 Steady Shot starts casting
6.80 Auto Shot fires

With the same stats the Auto Shot comes 0.4 seconds too late for a 4:3 rotation.

What is the condition for 4:3 rotation?

SteadyShot casting time + 2xAutoShot speed < 4.8s

When my IAotH procs my AutoShot speed goes to 1.81s

1.04 + 3.62 = 4.66s < 4.8s thus when IAotH procs it allows for a 4:3 rotation.

5:4 rotation?

SteadyShot casting time + 3xAutoShot speed < 6.4s

BIG CONCLUSION:

Haste rating is not always benefitial for a 3:2 rotation, it goes in steps. If you have enough haste to go from a 3:2 rotation to a 4:3 rotation you will notice an increase in DPS.

A 3:2 rotation is easy to obtain with the common gear, but I doubt that a 4:3 is obtainable (without procs or Rapid Fire/Bloodlust).

The increase can be estimated.

3:2 shoots 60+40=100 shots in 60 GCD.
4:3 shoots 60+45=105 shots in 60 GCD.
5:4 shoots 60+48=108 shots in 60 GCD.

You will thus notice an increase of 5% for a 4:3 and 8% for a 5:4.

Last edited by Nosti : 03/12/08 at 7:45 AM.
#3071SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sinestra
That's wonderful theory and mathwork, Nosti.

Now the major problem is that Kill Command takes all of that and twists it into a bunch of wasted time, sadly, since it's affecting the hidden cast timer of Auto Shot, causing it to fire after a following Steady Shot than it originally "should" have. This had caused me to fire the same number of shots as I normally would have in a 1:1, and the end ratio (again in my situation) was a 2:1, when technically I should have been firing at a very near perfect 2:3.

I think that's our biggest problem with getting the whole mess perfectly sorted out, in my opinion.

Because I no longer want to try to figure a perfect workaround for the Kill Command situation, I'm going to just stick with the 1:1 and gather as much "smart" (well itemized) haste gear as I can in 2.4 paired with the incredible Crossbow of Relentless Strikes to get the tightest and most efficient rotation possible.
#3072SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fimbo
Thank you Nosti, that was exactly the explanation i was after.

I just wasn't accepting the logic of this 3:2 business, but a trip to Dr Boom convinced me last night that it did indeed work!

Your post explains the theory behind it in a way i can follow, i think i'll crib it for my guild (with credit ofc) - so thanks very much.


On a supplemental issue if anyone is interested in automating the key press this software: AutoHotkey - Free Mouse and Keyboard Macro Program with Hotkeys and AutoText
does so. It is, in my understanding, within Blizzards T&Cs because you have to trigger the repeating sequence.

I still feel this is a broken mechanic, i can't imagine it's by design, but we've all got used to playing how we have to to squeeze out that extra bit of DPS.
#3073SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3TranquilRage
Originally Posted by Nosti View Post
The increase can be estimated.

3:2 shoots 60+40=100 shots in 60 GCD.
4:3 shoots 60+45=105 shots in 60 GCD.
5:4 shoots 60+48=108 shots in 60 GCD.

You will thus notice an increase of 5%/8%.
How can this be?

Because of GCD the most Steadys you can get off in 60 seconds is 60/1.5 = 40
Your max rate of fire for Auto Shot in 60 Seconds is 60/wepspd = ~60/1.9* = 31
That's assuming they are unlinked and no clipping issues occur.

Now going from 60 SPM on a 1:1 rotation (2.7 base speed weapon) to 71 SPM is still a nice ~16% DPS increase but the GCD is the killer.

I wonder if stacking spell haste items to lower the GCD in 2.4 will make lots of difference? We might then be able to fit a 2:1 (S:A) rotation in on slower weapons and benefit from both haste and spell haste. For example. with a max quiver, 5/5 SS and +5% haste from other sources a 3.1 base speed weapon gives a 2.14s Auto Shot and a 1.04s Steady Shot . If we could then stack spell haste to bring GCD down to ~1s We could fit two Steady Shots into each Auto shot and greatly increase DPS.

It all depends on how much a point of spell haste lowers the GCD by and if its reasonable/cost effective to get it to below 50% of Auto Attack speed.
*2.6 base with max quiv and 5/5 SS
#3074SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nosti
Originally Posted by TranquilRage View Post
How can this be?

Because of GCD the most Steadys you can get off in 60 seconds is 60/1.5 = 40
Your max rate of fire for Auto Shot in 60 Seconds is 60/wepspd = ~60/1.9* = 31
That's assuming they are unlinked and no clipping issues occur.
I'm not talking about 60 seconds but about 60 GLOBAL COOLDOWNS which is more or less 1.6x60 seconds.

Originally Posted by TranquilRage View Post
I wonder if stacking spell haste items to lower the GCD in 2.4 will make lots of difference?
1) They will never add spell haste on hunter gear.
2) Using caster gear to obtain some spell haste will make you lose alot of other stats (agi/AP/crit)
3) I'm not sure spell haste will even affect OUR cooldown.

Last edited by Nosti : 03/12/08 at 7:49 AM.
#3075SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nosti
Originally Posted by Sinestra View Post
That's wonderful theory and mathwork, Nosti.

Now the major problem is that Kill Command takes all of that and twists it into a bunch of wasted time, sadly, since it's affecting the hidden cast timer of Auto Shot, causing it to fire after a following Steady Shot than it originally "should" have. This had caused me to fire the same number of shots as I normally would have in a 1:1, and the end ratio (again in my situation) was a 2:1, when technically I should have been firing at a very near perfect 2:3.

I think that's our biggest problem with getting the whole mess perfectly sorted out, in my opinion.

Because I no longer want to try to figure a perfect workaround for the Kill Command situation, I'm going to just stick with the 1:1 and gather as much "smart" (well itemized) haste gear as I can in 2.4 paired with the incredible Crossbow of Relentless Strikes to get the tightest and most efficient rotation possible.
I'm aware of the KC 'bug'. But I simply wanted to illustrate 3:2 with some clear numbers.
#3076SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DevEight
Hey guys.

My guild has recently started MH and we got Kaz'rogal and I was thinking about switching out my old T5 shoulders with the [Beast-tamer's Shoulders].

I also have T5 legs so if I switch out my shoulders I'd lose my 2-piece set bonus.

Would be nice if you guys could give me some feedback on this.
#3077SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xEw
They explicitely said that lowering the GCD via haste rating will not be the case for hunters.

@DevEight: I also have beasttamers but i dont put them in for t5 because losing t5 will make your pet die more often and therefore the petbonusdmg is for nothing. Maybe i'm overreacting but i intend not to lose the 2piecet5bonus ever and so i'm heading for 4t6 2t5(shoulder+glove, since this means the least statloss) with 2.4.

and since this is a new page i would like to point to the hit-problem i posted last page. I'm really interested in an answer :-)
#3078SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nandei
Rapid Killing

With 2.4 coming up with lots of haste gear and that amazing crossbow, I have been wondering how useful is Rapid Killing for a BM hunter?

I am cookie-cutter BM specced and raiding MH/BT (4 bosses down in each instance). I am the IHM-slave of my guild, so I don't have any points in Efficiency at all. I have been thinking about putting my two points in Rapid Killing into Efficiency instead. I am using 1:1 priority rotation with Arcane when I have mana and just Steady-Auto when I am low. As I have never had Efficiency I don't have a feel on how much of an effect those two points would have.

At the moment I have Sunfury and one haste item, a cloak from ZA timed chest. With Rapid Fire my attack speed with these is already going below gcd. Quite often I am also getting other haste effects on top of Rapid Fire: IAotH procs, shaman uses Bloodlust or someone uses Drums of Battle. With multiple hastes on, I find I cannot hold a rotation, I am missing some specials here and there. I think it is partly because of my playstyle (hand-weaving) and partly because of my rather high latency of 300ms. Usually in a boss fight I am using Rapid Fire three times. Without Rapid Killing that would be twice per fight.

I am just looking for other's opinions on this, is it worth getting some more mana efficiency and loosing one Rapid Fire per boss fight? Especially when already going below gcd with it and that getting only worse in the future.
#3079SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnar
Originally Posted by DevEight View Post
Hey guys.

My guild has recently started MH and we got Kaz'rogal and I was thinking about switching out my old T5 shoulders with the [Beast-tamer's Shoulders].

I also have T5 legs so if I switch out my shoulders I'd lose my 2-piece set bonus.

Would be nice if you guys could give me some feedback on this.
They're fantastic. The answer is simple: Use them for fights where your pet doesn't take a lot of damage (Rage, Kaz'rogal, prolly Anatheron too). Use the T5 2 piece for where your pet does take a lot of damage (Azgalor). Basically, if you're having a problem keeping your pet up on a fight while using Beast-Tamer's, then swap to the T5.
#3080SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3alienangel
Originally Posted by DevEight View Post
Hey guys.

My guild has recently started MH and we got Kaz'rogal and I was thinking about switching out my old T5 shoulders with the [Beast-tamer's Shoulders].

I also have T5 legs so if I switch out my shoulders I'd lose my 2-piece set bonus.

Would be nice if you guys could give me some feedback on this.
The spreadsheet will tell you the dps difference between the two, so the healing is the only factor to consider I imagine. I never had T5 2pc, and while my pet died a huge number of times the first few times on each encounter (something like 12 revive pets on early azgalor >.>) I found it dying less and less on later attempts. That was probably party from getting gear with more stam, but mostly it's from just learning to keep a mend up if pet is under full, and keeping it away from predictable damage.

So I'd say go with the upgraded stats, and see which fights you can keep the pet up on without too much trouble.

I wish T5 had belt/bracers/boots/ring so it was easier to get 2pc t5 without losing stats so much :S I managed to get a couple pieces recently and the healing output is insane.
#3081SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnar
Originally Posted by Nandei View Post
With 2.4 coming up with lots of haste gear and that amazing crossbow, I have been wondering how useful is Rapid Killing for a BM hunter?
My gut feeling is that Rapid Fire is still worth it, but it's tough to say since your latency / reaction time comes into play.

2 points in Efficiency is roughly 12 mp5 for an auto/steady cycle, and 14 mp5 for 1:1 priority using arcane.

I've got a faster weapon, so Rapid puts me below the GCD (1.4 with no other haste buffs / procs), but I feel it's still worth it. If you're going to get group buffs such as Heroism or Drums of haste, plan out when you'll get them so you can use Rapid before or after them. Likewise, I always use Rapid when I don't have a haste buff up, and it's even more beneficial when you're low on mana and using Viper.

As far as having it mess up your rotation, just focus on doing your 1:1 thing. You'll push back Auto-shot every time, but that's ok. Just focus on casting your next special after the GCD is up. Then again, I generally have 60-70 latency, so I can usually get the two shots out in ~1.65 sec. Going from 2.1 to 1.65 is a pretty big DPS boost. Even with more latency, I think you'd still be going from ~2.07 to ~1.8, and that's not bad.

Sure, sometimes I get a Hawk + DST proc immidiately after popping Rapid. Other times, I get the full effect with nothing overlapping it. Having both Hawk and DST procs up only happens 14% of the time, while having no haste proc happens about 37% of the time. I feel the haste boost from Rapid is worth it to hopefully speed up some of that 37%, and is worth the loss of ~13 mp5 even if I'm wasting some of the haste. If you don't have a DST, Imp Hawk is probably only up ~44% of the time.
#3082SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ragnar
A question about Haste

So, I've been playing around with Cheeky's spreadsheet and haste raiting, and I'm surprised to find sweet spots of haste, pockets where the benefit of haste raiting is disproportionately better than outside the pocket.

For example, using my gear (includes Legionkiller, DST, and Imp Hawk), I'm finding the following:

Haste Raiting -- DPS Increase compared to previous level
00 -- 0.00
10 -- 7.12
20 -- 7.12
30 -- 8.45
40 -- 7.08
50 -- 7.07
60 -- 7.07
70 -- 5.92
80 -- 8.58
90 -- 5.58
100-- 5.56

So going from 20 to 30 haste, I get a considerably larger benefit than going from 0 to 10, or 30 to 40. I've been trying to figure out why that is, and I'm just not seeing it. Any help explaining this would be greatly appreciated.

What's also odd is the drop in effectiveness at 70, the increase at 80, and drop back down at 90. I'd say that 70 is where it bumps hard against the GCD limit, but the increase at 80 has me confused.

If I repeat this with the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes, .1 speed faster than Legionkiller, I get:

00 -- 0.00
10 -- 6.50
20 -- 5.78
30 -- 8.76
40 -- 5.76
50 -- 8.11
60 -- 5.74
70 -- 5.72
80 -- 5.71
90 -- 5.69
100-- 2.94

Again a slight drop at 20, increase at 30, drop at 40, increase at 50, then steady decrease until 100. Is this a bug in the spreadsheet, or is there something I'm missing?

Last edited by Ragnar : 03/12/08 at 4:56 PM.
#3083SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tenkai
I'm also confused as to how Cheeky's handles haste in conjunction with shot rotations. That's why personally, I would say find the perfect paperdoll speed for you and your connection/computer (for me it's about 1.75 on a 1:1 rotation) and then gear haste to achieve that.
#3084SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grymwish
Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
So, I've been playing around with Cheeky's spreadsheet and haste raiting, and I'm surprised to find sweet spots of haste, pockets where the benefit of haste raiting is disproportionately better than outside the pocket.

For example, using my gear (includes Legionkiller, DST, and Imp Hawk), I'm finding the following:

Haste Raiting -- DPS Increase compared to previous level
00 -- 0.00
10 -- 7.12
20 -- 7.12
30 -- 8.45
40 -- 7.08
50 -- 7.07
60 -- 7.07
70 -- 5.92
80 -- 8.58
90 -- 5.58
100-- 5.56

So going from 20 to 30 haste, I get a considerably larger benefit than going from 0 to 10, or 30 to 40. I've been trying to figure out why that is, and I'm just not seeing it. Any help explaining this would be greatly appreciated.

What's also odd is the drop in effectiveness at 70, the increase at 80, and drop back down at 90. I'd say that 70 is where it bumps hard against the GCD limit, but the increase at 80 has me confused.

If I repeat this with the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes, .1 speed faster than Legionkiller, I get:

00 -- 0.00
10 -- 6.50
20 -- 5.78
30 -- 8.76
40 -- 5.76
50 -- 8.11
60 -- 5.74
70 -- 5.72
80 -- 5.71
90 -- 5.69
100-- 2.94

Again a slight drop at 20, increase at 30, drop at 40, increase at 50, then steady decrease until 100. Is this a bug in the spreadsheet, or is there something I'm missing?
From the way I understood what Cheeky has previously said many pages back (forgive me if Ive misquoted you Cheeky), he doesnt full understand the FULL in's and out's of how and why 3:2 rotations work. None of us do, all we know for sure is that it works for some set ups and that it is a mana hog.

So knowing that, I wouldnt trust the spreadsheet completely when it comes to random outlyers like those times you listed the dps dropping. It would be too tough to say if its a problem in the spreadsheet or if its a true occurance (at least until the time we fully understood the 3:2 rotation......or Blizz changes it again).
#3085SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ivaldi
I bet you it's not linear between those numbers either. There may be spikes or plateaus you're not seeing. Shadow priests have a similar issue with something called wait. Can't really tell you what it's about but at a certain point too much haste is a bad thing.
#3086SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3alienangel
Benefit from haste being a non-continuous curve doesn't seem that strange to me, since our damage comes in discrete chunks (attacks), and the different types of attacks we do are affected differently by haste - each level of passive haste changes the proportion of each type of attack from our total, hence some values of haste are better than others. This would be true even if we perfectly understood how "3:2" macros work, since by their nature they trigger attacks based on what can be fired.
#3087SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kamma
EDIT: Modified so that "busy" time does not include lag time (auto shots can sneak in during lag and the rotation continues without a clip).

Nosti, thank you for your post. I've been trying to get a firm understanding of the steady spam mechanic, and you post made me (I think, maybe, hopefully) see the big picture.

I'm sticking my neck out on this one, particularly since I'm a noob around these parts.

I did some math and developed a algorithm for determining the theoretical auto:steady ratio for given weapon speed, total effective haste, and lag. This is really just a reiteration (I think) of your post but with some funny symbols, so I take no credit.

I'll first present the algorithm, then some pretty pictures showing how things change with different variables, and then finally I will attempt to justify the algorithm.

Algorithm
  • given variables: W_s, L, \lambda (respectively weapon speed, lag/reaction time,and effective haste)
  • for m=1
  1. Find n\in\mathbb{N} such that

    (1.5+L)n-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}\le (1.5+L)(n+1)-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}

  2. If

    (1.5+L)n-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}<(1.5+L)n

    then return (# of auto shots, # of steady shots)=(m,n)
    else m=m+1 and go to 1.

EDIT: Note that in step one above (for all examples I can think of at least):

n=\left\lfloor\frac{1.5+mW_s}{(1+\lambda)(1.5+L)}\right\rfloor

Moreover, the rotation is done over a period of n steady shots each taking a time of 1.5+L. So, the shots per second is \frac{m+n}{(1.5+L)n}.

Pretty Pictures
Note: Made by evaluating 100 points for each graph. The resolution could probably be better, but since reality has randomness thrown in, these should get the idea across sufficiently.

Here's a graphical result of haste vs shots per second for W_s=3, \lambda=.15 ... 0.9, L=0, .1, .2 (order red, blue, green)


Here's a graphical result of haste vs shots per second for W_s=3, 2.8, 2.6, \lambda=.15 ... 0.9, L=0 (order red, blue, green)


Keep in mind, I don't know if this is right - it's merely the mathematical result if the assumptions I made represent reality.

Justification

First, ask the question: what marks the behinning and end of a cycle in the steady spam rotation? The answer is, auto shot clipping. Whenever an auto shot clips, due to the way that the .5 sec cast of auto shot occurs during the last .5 seconds of the steady shot cast which clipped the auto shot, the auto shot and steady shot line up and cast simultaneously. Since the entire rotation is essentially an inductive process, if any "condition" occurs more than once, there will be a repeating cycle. Thus, auto shot clipping marks the beginning and ending of the spam cycle.

Ok, so consider the make shift diagram below,
where [ to ] mark the gcd, S marks the beginning of a steady shot cast, --- marks casting, ) marks the end of a steady cast, and L marks a lag/reaction time of length L
L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]
Now suppose we have an auto shot which wants to cast during the first steady shot, marked by an X. Then it fires with the steady shot at ), marked by x.

L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]L[S----)   ]
    X--x
The next auto shot will occur \frac{W_s}{1+\lambda} seconds follow x. This of course can either come up during a blank space where nothing is being cast and the GCD is active, or it can become available during a busy time. So, all the potential space falls into two categories: (a) where nothing is occurring and the auto shot fires, and (b) where the auto cannot fire and will clip. If it clips, we have the end of the cycle, and if it doesn't then we look at the next possible auto shot.

Now, to simplify things define:

R=1.5+L
S=\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}+L

Using these we can label all the critical points in our diagram:
 LL[S--------)   ]LL[S--------)   ]LL[S--------)...
^  ^         ^   ^  ^         ^   ^
0  L         S   R  R+L     R+S  2R... etc.
Which stretched out to the nth steady shot we have:
  LL[S--------)      ]LL[S--------)      ]LL[S--------)...
^             ^      ^  ^         ^      ^
(n-1)R  (n-1)R+S    nR nR+L    nR+S (n+1)R... etc.
So, suppose that some auto shot following a clipped auto shot and before the subsequent clipped auto shot (marking the end of the cycle) occurs somewhere during the nth steady shot, its GCD, or lag that occurs before the next steady shot.

IE, if t_a is the time that auto shot tries to fire, we have the inequality:

nR+L<t_a\le (n+1)R+L

However, since auto shot becomes available some multiple of \frac{W_s}{1+\lambda} seconds following the clipped auto shot, and if we count time 0 as before the steady cast (and its preceding lag), then we have:

t_a=\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}+S where m\in\mathbb{N}.

Substitution into the previous inequality, some algebra, and substituting for R and S gives:

(1.5+L)n-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}\le (1.5+L)(n+1)-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}

This is the inequality found in step 1 of the algorithm. So, what step 1 does is (for a given m) finds which steady shot period the mth auto shot will attempt to fire during.

Then step 2 determines whether not the auto shot will try to fire during a "busy" time. If so, we've found the end of the cycle and m is the number of auto shots, and n is the number of steady shots. If not, add one more to m and go back through from step 1.

The inequality in step 2 comes from the following inequality representing the "busy" time (derived from the diagram above):

nR+L<t_a<nR+S

nR+L-S<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}<nR

(1.5+L)n-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}<(1.5+L)n


Well, there's my neck. Please tell me if and how I messed up. I have not checked it to actual data, although since I modified the "busy" time to not include the lag time, it coincides with Nosti's numbers. Of course, this is all merely a brief theoretical construction. Although I may have gotten some specifics wrong, I think the general approach could potentially provide a way to model this chaotic rotation.

And of course this would be modeling without the wonder that is kill command causing random lags.

I'm going to try to come up with a nice interpretation of what happens if the effective haste changes at some time, so we could potentially model the rotation including haste procs.

Last edited by Kamma : 03/13/08 at 12:45 AM.
#3088SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zurgat
Originally Posted by Phanuel View Post
Buffed up with ~1950 AP, Lightning Breath is hitting for around 180-190, so it's not terrible. But it's no 2.0 310+
Lightning breath : 99 to 113 Damage : 50 Energy
Plus 12.87% Dmg extra based on your RAP.

So, with 1950 Ranged Attack Power, your pet would gain 250,965 spell damage.
However, as it's an instant spell the added spell damage is only 30-33% correct?
75,2895 (30%) - 82,81845 (33%)

Wowwiki says it's Spell damage and healing - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft 42.86% however. Which would mean it could add 107,563599, which seems a bit high.
But some spells are 30%, and it's not listed on the hunter wiki whether lightning breath or scorpid poison follow any different rules.

From your values it looks like it's ~33%
Can anyone verify this percentage?


Also, scorpid poison is Scorpid Poison - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
55 damage over 8 seconds at the highest rank.
55 / 8 sec * 5 stacks = 34,375 damage per second. Not including the spell damage bonus.
Doesn't seem to compare too well to lightning breath. Unless the scorpid poison works on a different coefficient than LB?


And another quick question, physical pet attacks such as gore, bite and claw. Are these considered yellow attacks or white attacks?
Meaning glancing blows would not occur.

Last edited by Zurgat : 03/13/08 at 4:42 AM.
#3089SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
From your values it looks like it's ~33%
Can anyone verify this percentage?
I'm pretty certain it's not that high. I've got a few test results (not yet finished), so I should be able to get a definitive answer in not too long (barring work).
Things to consider: BM Talents (+20% damage), Loyalty (+25% damage), Wind Serpent bonus (+7% damage), race (Orc: +5% damage).
There's also some strangeness regarding the tooltip, which I might have tracked down what's the cause of, but not whether is a display bug only.

And another quick question, physical pet attacks such as gore, bite and claw. Are these considered yellow attacks or white attacks?
Meaning glancing blows would not occur.
Pet special attacks are yellow. They do not glance.
#3090SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3TranquilRage
Firstly My apologies to Nosti for missing the GCD part of his explanation.

In a 3:2 rotation its my understanding that the Auto Shot will be delayed until the second Steady fires (Assuming no KC) effectively increasing your Auto Shot speed to GCD + Delay Triggering Macro + Steady Shot Speed. As shown here.


This diagram assumes a high speed of macro execution and thus no delay between GCD end and Steady cast.

So if we use the following macro, We could trigger KC (if available) on every other Steady Shot. So we would alternate between an Auto Shot or a KC after every Steady Shot. Thus not clipping Auto any more. Further, if Auto got delayed by an additional Steady cycle, it would effectively resync itself.

#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/castsequence [target=pettarget, exists] Steady Shot, Kill Command, Steady Shot; Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

Please note I can't test this as I am at work. If I am missing something please let me know.
#3091SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I'm pretty certain it's not that high. I've got a few test results (not yet finished), so I should be able to get a definitive answer in not too long (barring work).
Things to consider: BM Talents (+20% damage), Loyalty (+25% damage), Wind Serpent bonus (+7% damage), race (Orc: +5% damage).
There's also some strangeness regarding the tooltip, which I might have tracked down what's the cause of, but not whether is a display bug only.


Pet special attacks are yellow. They do not glance.

Alright, it's going to be tricky then.
But, as i'd like to find out more exact values, i was wondering if anyone had done more detailed research on the spell damage coefficient yet?
Surely it's been theory crafted at some point in time? Post 2.2 at any rate.
If not, i guess we got ourselves a nice new project!


Dodge, block and parry can still happen then, but pets automatically move to the back of a mob, so dodge and armor should be only factors after that.
#3092SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Lactose
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Alright, it's going to be tricky then.
But, as i'd like to find out more exact values, i was wondering if anyone had done more detailed research on the spell damage coefficient yet?
Surely it's been theory crafted at some point in time? Post 2.2 at any rate.
If not, i guess we got ourselves a nice new project!
I'm in the middle of it right now. Hopefully I won't have to work too much this weekend, and will have time to finish the tests, and be back with some answers & results.
#3093SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I'm in the middle of it right now. Hopefully I won't have to work too much this weekend, and will have time to finish the tests, and be back with some answers & results.
Looking forward to it.


It could also be worth investigating whether caster pets : Petopia: "Caster" Pets
Take any difference in the spell coefficient compared to normal pets. There aren't a lot of caster pets, but as most pets are used for melee purposes, their melee DPS will be lower, while their spells "might" get a boost.
I think it's doubtful however, and suspect that caster pets are simply a flaw in the pet system which blizzard hasn't fixed yet. But one can never be sure until it's tested.


Originally Posted by TranquilRage View Post
Please note I can't test this as I am at work. If I am missing something please let me know.
It is my understanding that autoshot is unable to fire until 0.5 seconds after steady shot finishes. So you may want to look into that.
Your chart seems to assume it can fire immediately after.
#3094SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Nosti
Originally Posted by Kamma View Post

Pretty Pictures
Note: Made by evaluating 100 points for each graph. The resolution could probably be better, but since reality has randomness thrown in, these should get the idea across sufficiently.

Here's a graphical result of haste vs shots per second for W_s=3, \lambda=.15 ... 0.9, L=0, .1, .2 (order red, blue, green)


Here's a graphical result of haste vs shots per second for W_s=3, 2.8, 2.6, \lambda=.15 ... 0.9, L=0 (order red, blue, green)


Keep in mind, I don't know if this is right - it's merely the mathematical result if the assumptions I made represent reality.
Hehe, you seem to be a very mathematically educated person, capable of latex (I studied Physics myself).

Your results seem to be correct and are indeed just my results formulated in a more general and theoretically correct way. Nice work!

Some thing I was wondering, how do you determine the /lambda? Effective haste? What is the formula for it?

Some results I wanted to emphasize:

1) Lag can be benefitial! (LOL)

2) The amount shots/time clearly increase with haste in a stepwise way 3:2->4:3->5:4->6:5->....
You could indicate these x:y numbers on the graph for even more understanding (1.111 <-> 3:2 | 1.166 <-> 4:3). Eventuelly they will converge to a shot rotation where you fire 1 Steady and 1 Auto every GCD, that would require alot of haste rating, but with some Rapid Fire + procs it can be achieved. You might even be able to push it further so that there's sometimes 2 Auto's between Steadies, but those are really extreme cases.

3) I'm not sure how the hidden 0.5 Auto Shot casting time is taken into all of this. If this casting time is true I don't believe a 3:2 rotation could be obtained in some cases where I have been able to obtain it, OR I must been underestimating the lag/reaction time duration (which gives a little more leway to obtain 3:2).

Would 0.5s delay for autoshot after steady result in something like?

0.00 Auto Shot
0.00 Steady Shot starts casting
1.04 Steady Shot fires
1.50 GCD ends
1.60 Steady Shot starts casting
2.64 Steady Shot fires
3.10 GCD ends
3.14 Auto Shot fires (next Auto Shot will fire at 5.22s)
3.20 Steady Shot starts casting
4.24 Steady Shot fires
4.70 GCD ends
4.80 Steady Shot starts casting
5.84 Steady Shot fires
6.30 GCD ends
6.34 Auto Shot fires

Which is a 2:1 rotation.

Last edited by Nosti : 03/13/08 at 10:50 AM.
#3095SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Praxx
Originally Posted by TranquilRage View Post
#showtooltip
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/castsequence [target=pettarget, exists] Steady Shot, Kill Command, Steady Shot; Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

Please note I can't test this as I am at work. If I am missing something please let me know.
I believe your macro would force three steady shots between each auto because of the use of the /castsequence. Further, I believe it would hang in the /castsequence until kill command could be fired. Note: I am at work so I cannot test this in game to be certain.

Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
It is my understanding that autoshot is unable to fire until 0.5 seconds after steady shot finishes. So you may want to look into that.
Your chart seems to assume it can fire immediately after.
Actually not entirely true. Part of the reason the 3:2 macro is working at all is because the auto shot timer seems to start before the steady shot is fired. I have seen delays of less than a tenth of a second between a steady shot and an auto shot.

Here are three examples from one of my combat logs:

16:18:32.921 Steady Shot hits
16:18:32.984 Auto Shot crits

16:01:16.515 Steady Shot hits
16:01:16.609 Auto Shot hits

16:14:55.531 Steady Shot hits
16:14:55.640 Auto Shot crits

Each of these occurred on the first auto shot of a 3:2 cycle. This is the point where one auto shot has been delayed and the timer catches back up to the rotation.

Last edited by Praxx : 03/13/08 at 10:58 AM.
#3096SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3TranquilRage
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
It is my understanding that autoshot is unable to fire until 0.5 seconds after steady shot finishes. So you may want to look into that.
Your chart seems to assume it can fire immediately after.
Thats a very good point.

So the following needs to be true

GCD - SteadySpeed + Delay > 0.5 seconds. This could be why faster spamming macros clip more shots. Because the Delay is reduced. You need an additional haste of >9% after SS and a Quiver to bring Steady to a 1 second cast. So the more haste you have the faster you can have the macro spammed to reduce the delay needed to not clip shots.
#3097SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ragnar
Originally Posted by grymwish View Post
From the way I understood what Cheeky has previously said many pages back (forgive me if Ive misquoted you Cheeky), he doesnt full understand the FULL in's and out's of how and why 3:2 rotations work. None of us do, all we know for sure is that it works for some set ups and that it is a mana hog.

So knowing that, I wouldnt trust the spreadsheet completely when it comes to random outlyers like those times you listed the dps dropping. It would be too tough to say if its a problem in the spreadsheet or if its a true occurance (at least until the time we fully understood the 3:2 rotation......or Blizz changes it again).
Oh, sorry, I forgot to add. This is 1:1 rotation auto-steady rotation. Nothing to do with the bizzaro 3:2 crap.

Last edited by Ragnar : 03/13/08 at 11:42 AM.
#3098SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
I believe your macro would force three steady shots between each auto because of the use of the /castsequence. Further, I believe it would hang in the /castsequence until kill command could be fired. Note: I am at work so I cannot test this in game to be certain.
It would also, due to the conditional statement in the castsequence, if his pet were to ever die, do nothing but fire auto shots.
#3099SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
It could also be worth investigating whether caster pets : Petopia: "Caster" Pets
Take any difference in the spell coefficient compared to normal pets. There aren't a lot of caster pets, but as most pets are used for melee purposes, their melee DPS will be lower, while their spells "might" get a boost.
I think it's doubtful however, and suspect that caster pets are simply a flaw in the pet system which blizzard hasn't fixed yet. But one can never be sure until it's tested.
It is very much worth the effort. Recent testing on caster pets has revealed some rather considerable, and interesting, differences between them and 'normal' pets. Now these change don't seem to have much positive effect outside Wind Serpents. But I must direct you to this thread regarding 'caster' pets. From page 2 it begins to get interesting, and it is overall a fairly joined effort to find out the effects.

Basically what we have noticed (many thanks to Skätha for the taming of a high level caster) is that caster pets scale much better with agi in relation to crit (25 agi per 1% crit compared to 33 agi to 1% crit). They also crit 5% more with LB inherently, and their Int can be buffed for even more LB crit (something normal pets are completely incapable of). Inherently they also appear to have more hit, which is really odd.

So far it appears that caster pets can very much be worth the effort in large raids with full buffs. Especially if some Shammy is so kind to put down Grace of Air totem. But they suffer from a destinct lack of HP so pet unfriendly fights aren't their strength at all.

But really, what I would like is for some assistance in testing this out more. Currently there is not much data to go on, but it is highly encouraging. And again, many props to Skätha for daring to bring a caster pet to a raid.
#3100SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
So far it appears that caster pets can very much be worth the effort in large raids with full buffs. Especially if some Shammy is so kind to put down Grace of Air totem. But they suffer from a destinct lack of HP so pet unfriendly fights aren't their strength at all.
Very interesting, i wonder if this would this apply to monkeys, bats, serpents and scorpids as well?
Dots can't crit, but it might increase the spell damage and hit chance. (thus uptime)

Definitely worth researching.
Also a shame that there's no lightning bolt above level 60 yet. A serious oversight from blizzard, or intended...
#3101SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
I'm in the middle of it right now. Hopefully I won't have to work too much this weekend, and will have time to finish the tests, and be back with some answers & results.
I did a bunch of testing against the critter boars outside orgrimmar after the nerf.

The coefficient is ~0.1.

1.25% of your AP gets added directly as damage.

The numbers are so small and get rounded in two places but I'm 99% sure that is it.
#3102SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
I did a bunch of testing against the critter boars outside orgrimmar after the nerf.

The coefficient is ~0.1.

1.25% of your AP gets added directly as damage.

The numbers are so small and get rounded in two places but I'm 99% sure that is it.

That would be insanely little.

What level pet did you test it with, how much AP did you have, etc.
Could you post some of the findings?
#3103SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kamma
Originally Posted by Nosti View Post
Hehe, you seem to be a very mathematically educated person, capable of latex (I studied Physics myself).

Your results seem to be correct and are indeed just my results formulated in a more general and theoretically correct way. Nice work!

Some thing I was wondering, how do you determine the /lambda? Effective haste? What is the formula for it?

Some results I wanted to emphasize:

1) Lag can be benefitial! (LOL)

2) The amount shots/time clearly increase with haste in a stepwise way 3:2->4:3->5:4->6:5->....
You could indicate these x:y numbers on the graph for even more understanding (1.111 <-> 3:2 | 1.166 <-> 4:3). Eventuelly they will converge to a shot rotation where you fire 1 Steady and 1 Auto every GCD, that would require alot of haste rating, but with some Rapid Fire + procs it can be achieved. You might even be able to push it further so that there's sometimes 2 Auto's between Steadies, but those are really extreme cases.

3) I'm not sure how the hidden 0.5 Auto Shot casting time is taken into all of this. If this casting time is true I don't believe a 3:2 rotation could be obtained in some cases where I have been able to obtain it, OR I must been underestimating the lag/reaction time duration (which gives a little more leway to obtain 3:2).

Would 0.5s delay for autoshot after steady result in something like?

0.00 Auto Shot
0.00 Steady Shot starts casting
1.04 Steady Shot fires
1.50 GCD ends
1.60 Steady Shot starts casting
2.64 Steady Shot fires
3.10 GCD ends
3.14 Auto Shot fires (next Auto Shot will fire at 5.22s)
3.20 Steady Shot starts casting
4.24 Steady Shot fires
4.70 GCD ends
4.80 Steady Shot starts casting
5.84 Steady Shot fires
6.30 GCD ends
6.34 Auto Shot fires

Which is a 2:1 rotation.
I'm studying math and economics in school right now. So yes, latex ftw.

Effective haste is simply all the haste sources multiplied together minus 1.

\lambda=(1+quiverhaste)(1+talenthaste)(1+hasterating/1576)(1+haste_1)(1+haste_2)...(1+haste_k)-1

Which for a bm hunter with rapidfire, quickshots, and 20 haste rating would be:

\lambda=(1.15)(1.20)(1+20/1576)(1.40)(1.15)-1\approx1.24

The question of the auto shot cast time is the real mystery in all these macros. Does it only become inconsequential when you clip an auto shot completely, or does steady spam make the cast time no longer a factor ever? I don't know. My work was under the assumption that in a steady spam macro the auto shot cast time doesn't matter. From what I've observed, if you clip an auto shot (in the sense that it wanted to cast during a steady cast), it will shoot simultaneously with the steady shot that clipped it - no .5 second delay. However, I dont know about if the steady shot cast time simply bumps into the auto shot cast time (say an auto tries to fire .2 seconds after a steady shot fires making the auto cast overlap the steady shot cast by .3 seconds).

So, there are 3 catagories:

1) Complete auto clip, where auto tries to fire during a steady cast. Here the auto fires together with the steady shot. EDIT: Doing some observational testing, there does seem to be a delay, but it isn't .5 seconds.

2) Partial auto clip, where auto tries to fire within .5 seconds following a steady cast completion. ?????

3) No clipping, where auto fires later than .5 seconds after a steady shot, firing normally.

Anyone have experience enough to answer the mystery of case 2?

And yea, the lag being benefitial is LOL. But in line with in game observations, so we win there.

Last edited by Kamma : 03/13/08 at 2:19 PM.
#3104SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Kamma View Post

So, there are 3 catagories:

1) Complete auto clip, where auto tries to fire during a steady cast. Here the auto fires together with the steady shot.

2) Partial auto clip, where auto tries to fire within .5 seconds following a steady cast completion. ?????

3) No clipping, where auto fires later than .5 seconds after a steady shot, firing normally.

Anyone have experience enough to answer the mystery of case 2?

And yea, the lag being benefitial is LOL. But in line with in game observations, so we win there.
From what I have seen we have the following behavior in a 3:2 macro.



1. Complete auto clip by a steady shot: The auto will be held until the end of the steady. The cast timer on the auto well be started before the end of the steady making that auto fire almost simultaneously with the steady. This will happen when the steady shot cast begins before the .5 sec auto shot cast timer is up. (Auto shot #1 and #3 in the image)

2. Partial auto clip: As long as the .5 sec auto shot timer is completed before the next steady shot is started the auto shot will go off. (Auto shot #2 in the image).

3. No clipping: This will typically result in the auto shot being delayed because the .5 sec timer is not up by the start of the next steady. (auto shot #3 in the image)

It seems fine if you clip the beginning of the auto shot (it starts casting before the steady fires) but if you start a new steady before the auto fires (you clip the end of the .5 sec cast) the auto is stopped completely.
#3105SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kamma
Cool. Then the algorithm needs no (theoretical) adjustment.

I'm going to try to see what happens if we change L from being a constant to being a random value from some sort of probability distribution (random chances for lag spikes). Also, I'm going to try to sort out how the transitions between hasted states work out, and what that means for the rotation.
#3106SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
That would be insanely little.

What level pet did you test it with, how much AP did you have, etc.
Could you post some of the findings?
I did it naked and then again with all my gear on to minimize rounding, did it with no happiness bonus and no talents.

It is an incredibly small amount, I'd dig through some WWS reports to give you examples but WWS is basically down.
#3107SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kamma
Here are nice summation graphics. For both, the vertical axis is shots per second. Independent variables are effective haste (lambda) and weapon speed (s). I forced Maple to show contours corresponding to each "step" - so, the first contour corresponds to a 2:3, the second a 3:4, the third a 4:5, ... and the 200th 200:201.


For L=0


For L=0.1

The plots are on a 100x100 grid (10,000 evaluations), so they have reasonable resolution.

Not really new information, but this strongly shows how the primary determinant of getting into a certain rotation (2:3, 3:4, etc.) is haste and not weapon speed. So, using slower weapons will (most likely) be better dps.

EDIT:
Generating ranges of haste rating which achieve a given auto steady rotation

Suppose we know our weapon speed, lag, and desired rotation. Then, since we know that the mth auto shot clips during the nth steady shot cycle, we know that,

(1.5+L)n-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}<(1.5+L)n

Since the middle term decreases as \lambda increases, the left hand side of the equation places an upper bound on the value of \lambda. Taking the left hand side and middle, and solving for 1+\lambda,

1+\lambda<\frac{mW_s+1.5}{(1.5+L)n}

This means that for a given weapon speed, lag, and auto:steady rotation, we can find an upper bound for \lambda.

Now, if we are to sequence through all the possible rotations starting with 1:2, we can find all the thresholds where one rotation will break into the next rotation.
Substituting 1+\lambda=(1+HR/1576)(1+haste_1)(1+haste_2)...(1+haste_l), (where HR is haste rating)

(1+HR/1576)(1+haste_1)(1+haste_2)...(1+haste_l)<\frac{mW_s+1.5}{(1.5+L)n}

So,

HR<\frac{1576(mW_s+1.5)}{(1.5+L)(n)(1+haste_1)(1+haste_2)...(1+haste_l)}-1576

For a BM hunter with a 3.0 bow, and 15% quiver:

HR<\frac{1576(m(3.0)+1.5)}{(1.5+L)(n)(1.15)(1.20)}-1576

Here's a table for the haste rating thresholds for 1:2, 2:3, and 3:4 rotations, and lags of 0 ms, 100 ms, 200 ms, and 300 ms.


Note: all values rounded up. Negative values not shown.

         1:2   2:3   3:4
0 ms   | 138 | 328 | 423
100 ms |  30 | 208 | 297
200 ms |     | 104 | 188
300 ms |     |  11 |  89
Meaning, these are haste values at which the given rotation is no longer possible - the upper bound on haste rating for that rotation. Since moving over each threshold puts you into the next rotation, these also provide the lower bounds for each rotation.

So for 100 ms of lag: with 0 to 29 haste rating, you'll do a 1:2, with 30 to 207 haste rating, you'll do a 2:3, and with 208 to 296 haste rating, you'll do a 3:4. Etc.

Last edited by Kamma : 03/13/08 at 11:20 PM.
#3108SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Very interesting, i wonder if this would this apply to monkeys, bats, serpents and scorpids as well?
Dots can't crit, but it might increase the spell damage and hit chance. (thus uptime)

Definitely worth researching.
Also a shame that there's no lightning bolt above level 60 yet. A serious oversight from blizzard, or intended...
I'm not certain that there are caster pets for Gorillas, Bats, Serpents or Scorpids. I know there are Dragonhawks, and I think there are Owls and Carrion Birds.
Dragonhawks will certainly see a benefit from the hit (remember it is still somewhat uncertain what is going on), but they can't crit, so a large part of the basic idea of taking a caster pet is lost. Owls and Carrion Birds use Screech but it crits off the melee crit, so I doubt it will be affected.

If there are Serpent casters that are tameable, then those might benefit a fair bit. Their special is a nature spell like LB as far as I know, so they should see the same results. However, Serpents are less powerful raid pets in general.

It is my hope that I can convince people here to do some testing too so we can get a more full view on the viability of caster pets in fully buffed raids. And as said, so far it looks like they are in fact superior.
#3109SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Glaurong
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
That would be insanely little.

What level pet did you test it with, how much AP did you have, etc.
Could you post some of the findings?
Did a bit more testing today just to confirm stuff. Came up with different numbers, worse ones this time unfortunately.

+55 pet spell damage (naked)

Listed maximum damage: 116
Maximum observed after LBing pigs for a while: 147

+254 pet spell damage (gear on, no Beast-Tamer shoulders)

Listed maximum damage: 116
Maximum observed: 158

So 199 spell damage increased damage by about 11. Which comes out to about a 5% coefficient.

Pet happiness and talents remained constant through both tests.
#3110SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Donitsu
So, i'm getting a lot of flack for not picking up legionkiller and sticking with my wolfslayer sniper rifle. I had previous plugged into cheeky's and, currently using a 1:1 rotation because of mana concerns, WSR does a few more DPS. I was wondering if I could have any more solid math on this,

I understand the basics of the concept... less time between your steady and auto, the basics of IAotH and the amount of time spent in that, and the unwanted effects of multiple haste proc's on such a fast weapon.... i'm just looking for some harder math.
#3111SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sinestra
Originally Posted by Donitsu View Post
So, i'm getting a lot of flack for not picking up legionkiller and sticking with my wolfslayer sniper rifle. I had previous plugged into cheeky's and, currently using a 1:1 rotation because of mana concerns, WSR does a few more DPS. I was wondering if I could have any more solid math on this,

I understand the basics of the concept... less time between your steady and auto, the basics of IAotH and the amount of time spent in that, and the unwanted effects of multiple haste proc's on such a fast weapon.... i'm just looking for some harder math.
Just tell them you could care less about any weapon that drops now, as you're saving badges up for the Chicken Crossbow in 2.4...you didn't want to see Legionkiller go to waste so quickly. They'll leave you alone then.
#3112SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Omegatron
Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
You don't need a programmable keyboard, you can use the Blizzard Key Binding Options in-game to bind functions to any key. I use a laptop and have keybindings on my keyboard, but use my mouse buttons for critical things like my shot rotation, pet attack macro, feign death, etc. Stuff that needs to be hit fast, as my reaction time otherwise tend to be a little slow.
I just spam the macro myself, and yes, I am a clicker. I seem to do well, mostly, since clicking it seems to let me adjust the speed I want to macro to work. I will assume key binding does the same, but I enjoy using the mouse

I use a 3.0 speed bow, but with my haste gear its 2.05 (95 haste) My own experience has shown stack haste with slow weapons and you will do very well. I am no good at running math behind how or why this works. I just enjoy reading these forums, and learning what I can.

My ranged weapon [Bristleblitz Striker]

Macro
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


Example data of me using this macro spamed. (yes mouse clicking it, not mouse wheel scrolling)

Full report Wow Web Stats (1122 dps)
Shade of Akama Wow Web Stats (2310 dps)
Teron Gorefiend Wow Web Stats ( 1788 dps)


It works well for me. I know some of the new gear coming out in 2.4 has some stuff with haste, I suggest if you have a 2.9 or 3.0 bow pick up some haste gear if you can. It seems to work well.

Also, a few people have posted this is not mana efficient. That is very true. I use [Blackened Sporefish], [Superior Mana Oil] and [Fel Mana Potion]. I do use agility food on most fights. (or try be in a group with a shadow priest /wink wink nudge nudge)

Hope this helps answer any questions about haste and slow speed weapons.

Last edited by Omegatron : 03/16/08 at 7:27 AM.
#3113SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Esau
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
I just spam the macro myself, and yes, I am a clicker. I seem to do well, mostly, since clicking it seems to let me adjust the speed I want to macro to work. I will assume key binding does the same, but I enjoy using the mouse

I use a 3.0 speed bow, but with my haste gear its 2.05 (95 haste) My own experience has shown stack haste with slow weapons and you will do very well. I am no good at running math behind how or why this works. I just enjoy reading these forums, and learning what I can.

My ranged weapon [Bristleblitz Striker]

Macro
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


Example data of me using this macro spamed. (yes mouse clicking it, not mouse wheel scrolling)

Full report Wow Web Stats (1122 dps)
Shade of Akama Wow Web Stats (2310 dps)
Teron Gorefiend Wow Web Stats ( 1788 dps)


It works well for me. I know some of the new gear coming out in 2.4 has some stuff with haste, I suggest if you have a 2.9 or 3.0 bow pick up some haste gear if you can. It seems to work well.

Also, a few people have posted this is not mana efficient. That is very true. I use [Blackened Sporefish], [Superior Mana Oil] and [Fel Mana Potion]. I do use agility food on most fights. (or try be in a group with a shadow priest /wink wink nudge nudge)

Hope this helps answer any questions about haste and slow speed weapons.
Are you running Hawk or Viper?
#3114SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mollari
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
I just spam the macro myself, and yes, I am a clicker. I seem to do well, mostly, since clicking it seems to let me adjust the speed I want to macro to work. I will assume key binding does the same, but I enjoy using the mouse

I use a 3.0 speed bow, but with my haste gear its 2.05 (95 haste) My own experience has shown stack haste with slow weapons and you will do very well. I am no good at running math behind how or why this works. I just enjoy reading these forums, and learning what I can.

My ranged weapon [Bristleblitz Striker]

Macro
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


Example data of me using this macro spamed. (yes mouse clicking it, not mouse wheel scrolling)

Full report Wow Web Stats (1122 dps)
Shade of Akama Wow Web Stats (2310 dps)
Teron Gorefiend Wow Web Stats ( 1788 dps)


It works well for me. I know some of the new gear coming out in 2.4 has some stuff with haste, I suggest if you have a 2.9 or 3.0 bow pick up some haste gear if you can. It seems to work well.

Also, a few people have posted this is not mana efficient. That is very true. I use [Blackened Sporefish], [Superior Mana Oil] and [Fel Mana Potion]. I do use agility food on most fights. (or try be in a group with a shadow priest /wink wink nudge nudge)

Hope this helps answer any questions about haste and slow speed weapons.
I was curious about adding some haste when using a slower weapon, myself. I picked up the [Serpent Spine Longbow] the other night and have seen a damage increase over my [Tuskbreaker] while using the 3:2 rotation.

I'm not sure which direction i want to go when 2.4 comes out, though. Would the badge crossbow be an upgrade over the slower bow off vashj? If so, would it be best to haste it a little bit and run the mana efficient 1:1, or keep it as is and stick with 3:2?
#3115SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pharuun
I'm using Vengeful bow (Waiting for bristleblitz) and using 95 haste rating (2.05 attack speed).

What is the recommended weapon speed for BM to stay above the global cooldown, i was noticing with imp. hawk + rapid fire proccing my steady shot rotation was screwing up. Should i just drop Imp hawk, and keep my weapon speed at 2.05, or get it down to 2.10.

Wondering what the ideal ranged weapon speed is, to stay above the GCD, or if it even matters.
#3116SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Omegatron
Originally Posted by Esau View Post
Are you running Hawk or Viper?
Hawk.
#3117SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tune
I've read through most of this thread but haven't seen much of anything about using faster weapons. I currently am using bristleblitz and have gotten up to 2300 dps. Cheeky's spreadsheet is telling me I would get about 75 dps more using the [Barrel-Blade Longrifle] over [Bristleblitz Striker]. Has anyone done testing with this? I'm curious to see how the two weapons compare and if they're that much of a difference. If it's already been posted I apologize, but I didn't see anything when I was looking! Thanks.

Last edited by Tune : Yesterday at 10:05 AM.
#3118SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurgat
Originally Posted by Glaurong View Post
Did a bit more testing today just to confirm stuff. Came up with different numbers, worse ones this time unfortunately.

+55 pet spell damage (naked)

Listed maximum damage: 116
Maximum observed after LBing pigs for a while: 147

+254 pet spell damage (gear on, no Beast-Tamer shoulders)

Listed maximum damage: 116
Maximum observed: 158

So 199 spell damage increased damage by about 11. Which comes out to about a 5% coefficient.

Pet happiness and talents remained constant through both tests.

1 RAP gives the pet 0.22 AP and 0.1287 spell damage

So, ~1554 Ranged attack power would give your pet about 200 extra spell damage and 341,88 Attack power.
341,88 / 14 = 24,42 DPS for white attacks. (Not including armor calculation)

200 pet spell damage increases a pet's damage by about 11 as you say. Meaning an estimate of 5% of your pet's spell damage is converted to actual damage. Thus 12.87% * 5% = 0,6435% of your RAP is converted to increased pet damage.

It'd need a bigger test for more accuracy, but this is pretty good data so far.
I guess scorpids, dragonhawks and wind serpents follow the same 5% ?

Also for some calculations, what is the default pet Focus regeneration value? 20 per 2 seconds or less?
Bestial discipline can improve it by 50-100% and Go for the Throat will obviously boost it even further.

Last edited by Zurgat : Yesterday at 11:31 AM.
#3119SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Esau
"This macro is stupid IWIN button that works fine for kara hunters, not for high end raiding hunter, that is all."


auto -------------------- auto -------------------- auto ------------------- auto ------------------ auto ------------------ auto
steady-arcane - GCD -steady- steady - Multi - GCD - steady - steady - repeat*

"When your multi is still on cool down, you are going to use some other shots like scorpid sting, hunter mark if it is going to expire. I don't suggest using serpent sting among the rotation though scorpid sting deals 0 dps, it helps raid helers a lot.

This shot rotation applies on when your attack speed>2.0s(maybe 100ms latency) so lets say 2.1s, it benefits you even you are BM with 3.0 speed bow which will make your attack speed around 2.12s.

Ofcause check out don't use this when you have improved aspect of hawk proc or rapid fire or blood lust.

Also mp5 needed for this rotation is huge, which is around 450. You can use rank 1 multi shot, which is dealing about the same damage as steady and costs around the same mana.

About dps increasing on this rotation is 20%, but you need a shadow priest or retri paladin to keep the mana up.

So from raid buff, shadow priest > everything, it is not like Dudeh said 'They don't need it'. We do need mana. And our mp5 is 60 with bow, Chain pot won't let you keep up this rotation, use it wisely."


Thoughts?

This are not my views, i would just like to see what you guys think of this guys comments / view on rotation.
#3120SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Kasi
The issue though with the caster pets who use LB is the damage lost from the raid if you run with an enhancement shaman putting up SS debuff for an elemental damage to consume. Any dps gained from the pet needs to be calculated with that loss factored in. Our BM hunter does use a wind serpent and it does do very well in dps, but if and when we get an enhancement shaman he plans to go to a ravager I believe.
#3121SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rachie
Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
The issue though with the caster pets who use LB is the damage lost from the raid if you run with an enhancement shaman putting up SS debuff for an elemental damage to consume. Any dps gained from the pet needs to be calculated with that loss factored in. Our BM hunter does use a wind serpent and it does do very well in dps, but if and when we get an enhancement shaman he plans to go to a ravager I believe.
From what I understand, your rogues are going to eat up the SS debuff pretty fast anyway with deadly poison so this point is moot.
#3122SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Kasi
[Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion

Deadly poison does not eat up stormstrike charges. However instant poison does. Hopefully no rogues in raids are silly enough to use instant poison though.
#3123SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Priestie
A little of topic...

I just got my first piece of gear with haste rating (2h axe from ZA) and was noticing that only the CD of autoshot decreases when I equip it. (from the tool tips)

So does haste rating decrease auto shot CD aswell as decrease the cast time of steady shot? Or since steady shot uses mana and is thus a "spell" is only affected by spell haste?

For some reason i always thought steady shot was a constant 1.5sec cast and increases to haste and thus attack speed only applied to auto shot. I mean the casting animation of my steady shot button seems to line up 100% with the GCD animation which is 1.5 secs.

I was hoping to achieve a 1:1 rotaion with haste and the new badge xbow. Try to get my auto shot to about 1.65secs with steady shot at 1.5 secs. But i guess it just it dosen't work this way.

So very confused...

Last edited by Priestie : Yesterday at 6:29 PM.
#3124SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurgat
Pet focus regeneration seems to be about 24 per 4 seconds, 48 with bestial discipline. Maybe 24.5 as i get a lot of odd numbers on longer attempts to test this.
Could somebody verify this? There's no mention of this mechanic that i can see on wowwiki or elsewhere.

Lactose might know for sure, this could be useful information to add to the working theorycraft sticky if it turns out to be accurate. Same for the pet spell coefficient once it is researched in more detail.
#3125SourcePosted on <=2.0.0beo31
Originally Posted by Priestie View Post
A little of topic...
[..]
I was hoping to achieve a 1:1 rotaion with haste and the new badge xbow. Try to get my auto shot to about 1.65secs with steady shot at 1.5 secs. But i guess it just it dosen't work this way.

So very confused...
Well, not that off-topic as one might think. Some "We have BC cleared since autumn"-guy told me, most of their hunters are going for haste. I still wonder why this hasn't come up here big time. All I read is: "haste is bad", but no real: "why haste is bad for BM-hunters".

I have noticed that with my 3.0 bow (Brizzzzle!) I do a almost solid 2:1 rotation with the (now not not anymore that-) "new" rotation spamming SS, bad latency hinders me to get it to 3:2 I guess. Whenever IAotH gets on, I do a nice 1:1 rotation. With the new xbow in 2.4 I, too, aim for the same 1:1 rotation. I read in its (the xbow's) item comments, that 50 haste rating will be sufficient to achieve that goal. So here's the question: Is it? Or how much shall I aim for to minimize clipping?

With all that math and graphs you provided recently, I'm sure you have THE answer!
#3126SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kamma
Originally Posted by beo31 View Post
With all that math and graphs you provided recently, I'm sure you have THE answer!
The recent work I've done gives this answer (theoretically). Here's an algorithm which predicts the rotation which would result from a steady spam macro given Weapon Speed, Lag, and Haste.

In this post I develop the following formula for the haste rating threshold at which a given auto:steady rotation breaks down into a rotation closer to a 1:1.

HR<\frac{1576(mW_s+1.5)}{(1.5+L)(n)(1+haste_1)(1+haste_2)...(1+haste_l)}-1576

That is to say, using a weapon of speed W_s with lag of L, a given m:n (auto:steady) rotation will stay viable while HR is less than the above value.

Since you want to achieve a 2:3 (auto:steady) rotation, we want to know at what amount of haste rating will a 1:2 rotation break down into a 2:3. So m=1, n=2. Using the badge bow, we have W_s=2.8 and since you are BM (and I assume use a 15% quiver) haste1=0.15 (quiver), and haste2=0.2 (serpent's swiftness). So then,

\frac{1576((1)(2.8)+1.5)}{(1.5+L)(2)(1.15)(1.2)}-1576=1576\left(\frac{4.3}{4.14+2.76L}-1\right)

The threshold given L=0, .05, .1, .2, .3 comes out to:

L / HR
0 ms / 60.9
50 ms / 8.1
100 ms / -41.4 (no additional haste needed)
200 ms / -131.7 (no additional haste needed)

Similarly but instead asking when will a 2:3 shift into a 3:4, (that is when m=2, n=3)
L / HR
0 ms / 225.9
50 ms / 167.7
100 ms / 113.3
200 ms / 13.9

In reality lag is spikey of course, so if you are near a threshold, you may very well spike into the next rotation here and there causing your auto:steady ratio to not be exact - but this is a tool to get a sense of things.

Of course you can always force any "rotation" you want by simply activating the spells in the correct order (as long as you aren't hasted to a point where a given rotation is no longer possible), but for a steady spam macro to generate a particular rotation, use the above equation.

I have not gotten much feedback since I posted the algorithm, so I don't know if the community agrees with my work on this subject. But the theoretical results here do seem to generally match up with people's qualitative experiences (latency helps make a 2:3 viable, increasing haste notches up the rotation towards approximately a 1:1).

Last edited by Kamma : 03/17/08 at 10:58 PM.
#3127SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3beo31
Originally Posted by Kamma View Post
The recent work I've done gives this answer (theoretically). Here's an algorithm which predicts the rotation which would result from a steady spam macro given Weapon Speed, Lag, and Haste.
Whhooo, my subconciousness made me look away quickly, seeing that freaky plots, so I did not catch the details. Thanks for posting it again!

Well, achieving a close to 1:1 rotation is nearly impossible, unless you 're still playing with 56k modem, while getting a 3:2 with that new x-bow isn't, using 2-3 haste items, asuming u have a good connection. Thanks again!
#3128SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Houze
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Pet focus regeneration seems to be about 24 per 4 seconds, 48 with bestial discipline. Maybe 0.1 more, as i get a lot of odd numbers on longer attempts to test this.
Could somebody verify this? There's no mention of this mechanic that i can see on wowwiki or elsewhere.

Lactose might know for sure, this could be useful information to add to the working theorycraft sticky if it turns out to be accurate. Same for the pet spell coefficient once it is researched in more detail.

Lienna's log: Pet focus: bite/claw and scorpids : Also lists it as 24 per 4 seconds.
Well, i can't verify it with more then my words, but I'm sure I have seen those numbers on wowwiki and at this forum.
Base focus regen, 24 focus every 4 seconds. I'm pretty sure this is accurate, until proven otherwise.
#3129SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3beo31
WoWWiki says: 25/4s
#3130SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rachie
Originally Posted by Kasi View Post
[Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion

Deadly poison does not eat up stormstrike charges. However instant poison does. Hopefully no rogues in raids are silly enough to use instant poison though.
So no dot nature damage consumes stormstrike. Now I have another question then, does scorpid sting consume it? I know for farm content we do not really keep it up religiously. But for Sunwell we will keep it up especially for fights like Kalecgos where it is pretty healing intensive.
#3131SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Lactose
Last I checked, focus regeneration rate was 24.5 per tick, alternating between 24 and 25.

Scorpid Sting has no effect on Stormstrike.
Instantly attack with both weapons. In addition, the next 2 sources of NATURE DAMAGE dealt to the target are increased by 20%. Lasts 12 sec.
Serpent Sting might, but I doubt it (nor do I see any reason for it to be used).
#3132SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aragda
Originally Posted by Rachie View Post
So no dot nature damage consumes stormstrike. Now I have another question then, does scorpid sting consume it? I know for farm content we do not really keep it up religiously. But for Sunwell we will keep it up especially for fights like Kalecgos where it is pretty healing intensive.
All hunter stings count as poison effects, and thus are unaffected by stormstrike.
#3133SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Kasi
Even if it wasn't what Aragda said, Stormstrike says the next 2 sources of nature damage applied to the target. Scorpid sting does no damage, so I'd assume it didn't reduce the stack. (not sure on serpent sting though) I think next time I respec enhancement I am just going to go out with a hunter, a rogue and a druid and try some of this stuff out to see what exactly does consume SS just so I know for sure.
#3134SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Yondan
Wind Serpent

Can somebody please tell me the best way to use a Wind Serpent when raiding as BM? From what I can gather you should put the /cast lightning breath in your macro and turn off all other pet abilities on your cast bar. We shouldn't even use Dive or Bite to save focus for more lightning breath attacks, right?
#3135SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nyera
Ferocious Inspiration

So question - I was under the belief that Ferocious Inspiration would only stack one time for your group - e.g., you have a group with 3 rogues and 2 BM hunters - assuming that both pets crit, will the entire party get 6% bonus damage? Seems too good to be true, but I have people telling me it does.

Thanks
#3136SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Nyera View Post
So question - I was under the belief that Ferocious Inspiration would only stack one time for your group - e.g., you have a group with 3 rogues and 2 BM hunters - assuming that both pets crit, will the entire party get 6% bonus damage? Seems too good to be true, but I have people telling me it does.
It does stack multiple times, yes.
#3137SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aragda
Originally Posted by Nyera View Post
So question - I was under the belief that Ferocious Inspiration would only stack one time for your group - e.g., you have a group with 3 rogues and 2 BM hunters - assuming that both pets crit, will the entire party get 6% bonus damage? Seems too good to be true, but I have people telling me it does.

Thanks
Weve had a group before that was 4 bm hunters and a feral druid. We melted some faces.
#3138SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3alienangel
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Pet focus regeneration seems to be about 24 per 4 seconds, 48 with bestial discipline. Maybe 0.1 more, as i get a lot of odd numbers on longer attempts to test this.
Could somebody verify this? There's no mention of this mechanic that i can see on wowwiki or elsewhere.

Lactose might know for sure, this could be useful information to add to the working theorycraft sticky if it turns out to be accurate. Same for the pet spell coefficient once it is researched in more detail.

Lienna's log: Pet focus: bite/claw and scorpids : Also lists it as 24 per 4 seconds.
While I have nothing useful to add on what the actual value is, a thought that comes to mind is that if you're seeing "odd numbers" on longer attempts, it may be related to the rogue phenomenon of missed specials not consuming the full energy cost of an ability, which leads to odd things like having 39 energy when all your ability costs and energy regen effects are in multiples of 5.
#3139SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Houze
Originally Posted by Lactose View Post
Last I checked, focus regeneration rate was 24.5 per tick, alternating between 24 and 25.

Scorpid Sting has no effect on Stormstrike.
Instantly attack with both weapons. In addition, the next 2 sources of NATURE DAMAGE dealt to the target are increased by 20%. Lasts 12 sec.
Serpent Sting might, but I doubt it (nor do I see any reason for it to be used).
Serpent Sting should be affected by Stormstrike. Stormstrike is like warlocks ISB-buff, direkt damage spells consumes charges, DoT's take advantage off the buff but do not consume charges, so Serpent Sting should work like rogues Deadly Poison here, it gets 20% more damage.
Problem with Stormstrike is that it's seldom up more the a few seconds as it has only 2 charges, the shaman himself consumes 1 charge every 12th second using Earth Shock (alternates with Flame Shock), Thorns on the tank consumes charges, Elemental Shamans spams Nature Bolts that consumes charges, so it's highly unlikely that more then a single tick of Serpent Sting gets the 20% bonus from Storm Strike.
#3140SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nzambi
Trinket Question

Hey guys,

So my guild just started BT/hyjal and stopped SSC/TK. I was looking for a little help in deciding on end game trinkets for my BM hunter (lets just ignore that I'm currently sporting a BB and an hourglass). According the the apreadsheet the best combination currently available is the Ashtounge + Madness of the Bretayer/Crusade Card. Given the prices of blessings cards on my server i started thinking if Ashtounge + upgraded alchy stone would be a better combination. Any input?
#3141SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Houze View Post
so it's highly unlikely that more then a single tick of Serpent Sting gets the 20% bonus from Storm Strike.
Well, single ticks can't get affected by anything as far as I know. However Serpent Sting being landed while Stormstrike was up should result in a 20% more powerful sting. However, people here comment that it doesn't get affected at all. I wouldn't know that since I basically never use Serpent Sting in PvE.
#3142SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
Well, single ticks can't get affected by anything as far as I know. However Serpent Sting being landed while Stormstrike was up should result in a 20% more powerful sting. However, people here comment that it doesn't get affected at all. I wouldn't know that since I basically never use Serpent Sting in PvE.
Stormstrike, like improved shadowbolt, have no effect on DoT effects. The charges are only consumed by direct damage spells (lightning breath/lightning bolt/etc). The only debuff i can think of off hand that would affect serpent sting is misery.

Originally Posted by Houze View Post
Serpent Sting should be affected by Stormstrike. Stormstrike is like warlocks ISB-buff, direkt damage spells consumes charges, DoT's take advantage off the buff but do not consume charges, so Serpent Sting should work like rogues Deadly Poison here, it gets 20% more damage.
In the time that I raided on my rogue with an enhancement shaman I have never seen a situation where it appeared as though deadly poison received any benefit from stormstrike. From what I've seen, in my personal experience and from WWS parses, the only debuff that increased poison damage was misery.

EDIT: I stand corrected. After examining the log from BT last night it appears that on the rare occasions that deadly poison tic'd before the stormstrike charges were used, they did indeed gain 20% more damage.

Last edited by Sarutobi : 03/19/08 at 2:21 PM.
#3143SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3alienangel
Since this is a BM thread, does anyone actually use serpent sting? I don't see any situation in which it's worth the global cooldown, other than while running after supremus with arcane on cooldown.
#3144SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Vetpron
Guys, I've just levelled a hunter and plan on raiding as BM. I've sorted out all my shot rotation macros and so on, but I'd really like to do what I did with my enhance shammy and use some AEP values to quickly compare gear. I've searched the thread and thorugh some trawling have been unable to find some generally agreed upon values. If anyone cansuggest something, it'd really help. Also, is there any plan to consolidate some of the theorycraft contained within here into the first post so it's easily accessible for everyone? Thanks for your time.
#3145SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Vetpron View Post
Guys, I've just levelled a hunter and plan on raiding as BM. I've sorted out all my shot rotation macros and so on, but I'd really like to do what I did with my enhance shammy and use some AEP values to quickly compare gear. I've searched the thread and thorugh some trawling have been unable to find some generally agreed upon values. If anyone cansuggest something, it'd really help. Also, is there any plan to consolidate some of the theorycraft contained within here into the first post so it's easily accessible for everyone? Thanks for your time.
Use Cheeky's spreadsheet instead to get AEP values for your current gear. The problem is the AEP values change depending on your gear, and with your shot rotation too (as well as talent builds, etc.)
#3146SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Vetpron
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Use Cheeky's spreadsheet instead to get AEP values for your current gear. The problem is the AEP values change depending on your gear, and with your shot rotation too (as well as talent builds, etc.)
Oh I see, thanks for that; I will check it out.
#3147SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Intermission
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Since this is a BM thread, does anyone actually use serpent sting? I don't see any situation in which it's worth the global cooldown, other than while running after supremus with arcane on cooldown.
Pretty much.

While moving and arcane and multi on CD. (or if you cant pause for a split second for multi). Example fights: Surpemus, Mother, Council.

And even then, there is the mana cost to consider.
#3148SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sodee
I apologize in advance if this has been brought up, but sifting through the last 50 pages of "What shot macro do I use?" has worn on me.

My question is this -

I'm a raiding BM Hunter and I use a Ravager as my pet. I currently have it trained in the following:
Avoidance (Highest Rank)
Cobra Reflexes
Dash (Rank 3)
Gore (Rank 9)
Great Stamina (Rank 6)
Natural Armor (Rank 11)

I'm wondering however if I should have trained Bite on my ravager. It doesn't make sense to me to do so because Gore doesn't have a cooldown and as a BM hunter, I feed my pet practically endless amounts of Focus... however, we did some Hyjal raiding tonite and looking through the WWS I've noticed that all the other Hunters that were with us had it trained on their ravagers. There were 4 (Don't ask...) hunters along for Hyjal tonite:

Kraaven(Me) : Beast Mastery
urMiwi: Beast Mastery
Aboot: Marks
Strungy: Survival

WWS Loading...

This is our WWS of our hyjal run. The exact breakdown of the pets damage done during Rage was this :

Pets - WWS

That's a 43 dps difference between the two pets. Bear in mind that Miwi does outgear me, but the gap shouldn't be that large, should it?

Last edited by Sodee : Yesterday at 3:21 AM.
#3149SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zurgat
Originally Posted by Sodee View Post
I'm wondering however if I should have trained Bite on my ravager. It doesn't make sense to me to do so because Gore doesn't have a cooldown and as a BM hunter, I feed my pet practically endless amounts of Focus... however, we did some Hyjal raiding tonite and looking through the WWS I've noticed that all the other Hunters that were with us had it trained on their ravagers. There were 4 (Don't ask...) hunters along for Hyjal tonite:
Bite does about 120 damage, gore about 73.5.
If you have unlimited focus then training bite instead of dash is a good idea. Even if your focus isn't unlimited, Bite has a better damage per focus usage than gore does.
#3150SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Axejess
Originally Posted by Sodee View Post
I apologize in advance if this has been brought up, but sifting through the last 50 pages of "What shot macro do I use?" has worn on me.

My question is this -

I'm a raiding BM Hunter and I use a Ravager as my pet. I currently have it trained in the following:
Avoidance (Highest Rank)
Cobra Reflexes
Dash (Rank 3)
Gore (Rank 9)
Great Stamina (Rank 6)
Natural Armor (Rank 11)
Btw why dash max and so much armor? Shouldn't something like this be better for your pet?

I always do something like that for my raid pets. Aka 1 res full (arcane for tk/kara nature for za/ssc) and as much stam as i can get for it.
#3151SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Osse
I've never actually thought about (dont know why -.-) it before but does serpent's swiftness and rank 2 dash make pet run at 180% as in is it capped at 180%?

Just the "Btw why dash max" made me wonder what's going on. :/
#3152SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Axejess
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I've never actually thought about (dont know why -.-) it before but does serpent's swiftness and rank 2 dash make pet run at 180% as in is it capped at 180%?

Just the "Btw why dash max" made me wonder what's going on. :/
Well only if it isn't on cooldown and it's only use is wehen you send the pet to the mobs. And sins the pet mostly stays at the boss you don't really need it in raid. Dash only is good in my opninion for a lvl/grind pet sins then you are killing a lot of mobs but in raids the only real use is on thrash. Imho that way just take 1 rank that sould me more then enough for youre pet.
#3153SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Houjit
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
I've never actually thought about (dont know why -.-) it before but does serpent's swiftness and rank 2 dash make pet run at 180% as in is it capped at 180%?

Just the "Btw why dash max" made me wonder what's going on. :/
I think you mean bestial swiftness

Wowhead shows them as separate spell effects, and no one seems to know the answer. Assuming you're outside somewhere (for bestial swiftness to apply), my best guess would be a multiplicative percentage along the same lines as Haste

Last edited by Houjit : 03/20/08 at 8:39 AM. Reason: typo
#3154SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hunterlin
Not all speed effects stack. For example druid cat talents grant 30% speed, but it does not stack with catforms dash skill.
Only test may show if currently they stack or not.
#3155SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
alienangel
Originally Posted by Intermission View Post
Pretty much.

While moving and arcane and multi on CD. (or if you cant pause for a split second for multi). Example fights: Surpemus, Mother, Council.

And even then, there is the mana cost to consider.
On Mother and Council I'd still rather do scorpid instead of serpent if I have a free gcd to burn. Haven't actually discussed with our tanks whether it's helping or not, but I'd imagine it is.

Last edited by alienangel : 03/20/08 at 10:06 AM. Reason: capitalization
#3156SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3lairpie
Originally Posted by Sodee View Post
WWS Loading...

This is our WWS of our hyjal run. The exact breakdown of the pets damage done during Rage was this :

Pets - WWS

That's a 43 dps difference between the two pets. Bear in mind that Miwi does outgear me, but the gap shouldn't be that large, should it?
His pet did More melee attacks, more Kill commands, and hit harder on average.

You could probably hit KC more often, but there's only so much you can really do about your pet attacking less and hitting for less per attack. Hit pet also took a bit more damage and he's not wearing the 2t5 like you are so if anything, he needs to be more cautious with his pet than you do. You could probably get away with pulling your pet out of stuff a bit less, but obviously risking it dying is bad. That's a balance you'll have to strike. TBH, i'm not sure D&D would even kill a pet through avoidance, mend pet, health link, and likely a CoH or chain heal.

If you weren't pulling your pet out of D&D and it just didn't feel like attacking as often as his, don't know what to tell you; your pet is just lazy.
#3157SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KraxisSingular
Comparing Gores (adding Bite to his pet) your pet is down a fair few special attacks. Seems indeed to be a problem about presence more than anything. The remaining 'few' DPS his pet would do extra would likely be down to gear.

His pet 100% DPS time, your pet 95% DPS time. That is the main difference?
#3158SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ragnar
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
On Mother and Council I'd still rather do scorpid instead of serpent if I have a free gcd to burn. Haven't actually discussed with our tanks whether it's helping or not, but I'd imagine it is.
5% miss chance is very good; tanks would love to get it on their gear, and your healers should appreciate it. Particularly on those fights, where there's a ton of damage going around, we have a designated hunter keep Scorpid up.

Now, if you're not the designated hunter, you'd potentially be free to toss out Serpents when moving. For me, the mana cost and having to take up a debuff slot doesn't seem worth it. Only time I ever use it in raids is tossing it on Supremus while running in his kite phase, since he has very few debuffs up at that point.
#3159SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Azarias
Originally Posted by Kamma View Post
The recent work I've done gives this answer (theoretically). Here's an algorithm which predicts the rotation which would result from a steady spam macro given Weapon Speed, Lag, and Haste.

In this post I develop the following formula for the haste rating threshold at which a given auto:steady rotation breaks down into a rotation closer to a 1:1.

HR<\frac{1576(mW_s+1.5)}{(1.5+L)(n)(1+haste_1)(1+haste_2)...(1+haste_l)}-1576

That is to say, using a weapon of speed W_s with lag of L, a given m:n (auto:steady) rotation will stay viable while HR is less than the above value.

Since you want to achieve a 2:3 (auto:steady) rotation, we want to know at what amount of haste rating will a 1:2 rotation break down into a 2:3. So m=1, n=2. Using the badge bow, we have W_s=2.8 and since you are BM (and I assume use a 15% quiver) haste1=0.15 (quiver), and haste2=0.2 (serpent's swiftness). So then,

\frac{1576((1)(2.8)+1.5)}{(1.5+L)(2)(1.15)(1.2)}-1576=1576\left(\frac{4.3}{4.14+2.76L}-1\right)

The threshold given L=0, .05, .1, .2, .3 comes out to:

L / HR
0 ms / 60.9
50 ms / 8.1
100 ms / -41.4 (no additional haste needed)
200 ms / -131.7 (no additional haste needed)
I don't know how accurate your formula is (my math is a little rusty) but this seems like exactly the thing I was looking for! There is just 1 thing that I don't quite follow (besides how you came to that exact formula but I don't care about that):

Since you want to achieve a 2:3 (auto:steady) rotation, we want to know at what amount of haste rating will a 1:2 rotation break down into a 2:3.
Say what now? I've heard about a 3:2 rotation and of course the 1:1 rotation (which is the rotation I'd like to achieve) but what's this about a 1:2 and 2:3 rotation? Have I been missing out? Now I didn't read all of the 127 pages of this thread, but could someone elaborate on this?

Also, and this might be tight into the other issue, when I try to calculate the HR needed for a 1:1 rotation (and set m to 1 and n to 1) I get some freakishly high number. Is this correct or am I doing something wrong?
#3160SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Azarias View Post
Say what now? I've heard about a 3:2 rotation and of course the 1:1 rotation (which is the rotation I'd like to achieve) but what's this about a 1:2 and 2:3 rotation? Have I been missing out? Now I didn't read all of the 127 pages of this thread, but could someone elaborate on this?
Kamma just has the ratios reversed. His 2:3 is auto:steady, 3:2 is steady:auto so he is talking about the same rotation.
#3161SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Crydak
Hi Guys,
I've tamed a new Ravager yesterday for my BT/Hyjal Raids and wanted to know
if i "specced" my Pet correctly.It has currently the following Spells:
Shadow Resi Rank 5
Stamina Rank 9
Gore Rank 9
Bite Rakn 9
Avoidance Rank 2
Growl Rank 8

Or my second Specc:
Shadow Resi Rank 5
Stamina Rank 10
Gore Rank 9
Avoidance Rank 2
Growl Rank 8
Armor Rank 2
#3162SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Indora
Originally Posted by Kamma View Post
I have not gotten much feedback since I posted the algorithm, so I don't know if the community agrees with my work on this subject.
Ok, although it's very hard for me to explain things in english, I'll try.
A few weeks ago, I thought about this problem, too.
I nearly had the same ideas in mind as you have, but with much less math.

Your work on this algorithm is really great!
But of course there are a few things I would like to mention.

Btw, how do you write your formulars?

Originally Posted by Kamma
Whenever an auto shot clips, due to the way that the .5 sec cast of auto shot occurs during the last .5 seconds of the steady shot cast which clipped the auto shot, the auto shot and steady shot line up and cast simultaneously.
I think, there IS a delay of the auto shot, however, it's not 0.5 seconds.

Originally Posted by Kamma
R = 1.5 + L
The GCD is controlled client-side and isn't delayed by lag anymore. Thus, 1.5 + 'reaction' time shoud be correct.

Originally Posted by kamma
[...]and if we count time 0 as before the steady cast[...]
Do I understand you right?

L[S-------)      ]L[S-------)      ]
                 ^
                 0 ?
I think the start point should be:
L[S-------)      ]L[S-------)      ]
          ^
          0
But because I think there is still a small delay, even if the auto shot was clipped, it should even be more like
L[S-------)      ]L[S-------)      ]
             ^
             0

Last edited by Indora : 03/21/08 at 1:54 PM.
#3163SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Abynthe
Sorry for the contentless post, but I don't see the difference between the three ascii diagrams you just did.
#3164SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kamaa
Originally Posted by Crydak View Post
Hi Guys,
I've tamed a new Ravager yesterday for my BT/Hyjal Raids and wanted to know
if i "specced" my Pet correctly.It has currently the following Spells:
Shadow Resi Rank 5
Stamina Rank 9
Gore Rank 9
Bite Rakn 9
Avoidance Rank 2
Growl Rank 8

Or my second Specc:
Shadow Resi Rank 5
Stamina Rank 10
Gore Rank 9
Avoidance Rank 2
Growl Rank 8
Armor Rank 2
Get Max fire and shadow resist. Make sure you have avoidance and cobra reflexes and bite rank 9. I prefer dash also, but that's up to you. Put the leftovers in stam, it won't be much.
#3165SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Crydak
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Get Max fire and shadow resist. Make sure you have avoidance and cobra reflexes and bite rank 9. I prefer dash also, but that's up to you. Put the leftovers in stam, it won't be much.
Shadow resist was clear for me,but why Fire Resi?The only Encounters my Pet will need Fire Resi is Azgalor with his Rain of Fire and maybe Archimonde with his Doomfire.
#3166SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3EvilDeathCrab
Illidan's Flame Crashes, Agonizing Flames, & Phase 2.
Council - Nerevor's Flamestrikes.
Supremus - Any damage you or your pet should be taking on that fight will be fire.

Just some other examples.
#3167SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Crydak
Originally Posted by EvilDeathCrab View Post
Illidan's Flame Crashes, Agonizing Flames, & Phase 2.
Council - Nerevor's Flamestrikes.
Supremus - Any damage you or your pet should be taking on that fight will be fire.

Just some other examples.
Okay,that sounds plausible for me =)
Thx again
So long,
Crydak
#3168SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3thekimber
Originally Posted by Abynthe View Post
Sorry for the contentless post, but I don't see the difference between the three ascii diagrams you just did.
The diagrams are showing different points for "time 0". I think I agree with Indora that the theoretical point of time 0 should be like the second diagram, but does how it works in game? Maybe the third diagram is more accurate for that.
#3169SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Praxx
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
But because I think there is still a small delay, even if the auto shot was clipped, it should even be more like
L[S-------)      ]L[S-------)      ]
             ^
             0
I believe you are correct. The fastest I have seen an auto shot fire following a steady using the 3:2 /cast macro is .09 sec.
#3170SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
I believe you are correct. The fastest I have seen an auto shot fire following a steady using the 3:2 /cast macro is .09 sec.
I'm pretty sure that is the result of latency jitter. I fully believe that the 0.5s cast time of Auto Shot is fully effected by all haste, but that latency jitter prevents us from getting specific enough timing information to confirm. I don't think they can ever fire simultaneously.
#3171SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Abynthe
Originally Posted by thekimber View Post
The diagrams are showing different points for "time 0". I think I agree with Indora that the theoretical point of time 0 should be like the second diagram, but does how it works in game? Maybe the third diagram is more accurate for that.
When I posted that the three diagrams were not in <quote>s and did not have the first half of the rotation. They're a lot clearer now.
#3172SourcePosted on <=2.0.0georgejoseph
BRK WWS

So BigRedKitty just posted his WWS report of a Lurker fight on wowinsider.com

Wow Web Stats

he appears to have 3 autos for every 2 steadies. comments?

edit: BRK is Titan on the WWS

Last edited by georgejoseph : Yesterday at 4:01 PM. Reason: Clarify who BRK is on the WWS
#3173SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sinestra
Originally Posted by georgejoseph View Post
So BigRedKitty just posted his WWS report of a Lurker fight on wowinsider.com

Wow Web Stats

he appears to have 3 autos for every 2 steadies. comments?

edit: BRK is Titan on the WWS
I'd like to say he's replacing some steadies with other specials, such as Arcane, and Multi. But even with those added in it's not up to a standard 1:1.

My guess is they're still fresh on Tidewalker, and were having huge threat issues (had to sit and autoshot for a bit) from the tank.
#3174SourcePosted on <=2.0.0KraxisSingular
I have noticed that when I run with my 1:1 rotation I see something similar to 3:2 auto to Steady results. I believe it is down to not only Multi and Arcane, but also Mend Pet and other specials (on Morogrim dropping Explosive Trap).
Even fights wher I have felt it was getting close to perfect I have never achieved anything close to 1:1 due to all the other stuff I need to do.

If you watch the movie he posted of the Lurker fight you will see that he doesn't miss his Steadies. He just does all the other stuff that pushes them out of the rotation now and then.
#3175SourcePosted on <=2.0.0venomrage
spirit bond or animal handler??

what is best for raiding rly animal handler or spirit bond. i think animal handler cuz as i see it its better for my pet to hit more and do more damage than get 2%hp every 10 sec. imo spirit bond isnt so good at all but my guild master says otherway. wanted to see what you guys think
#3176SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Felixalias
Originally Posted by venomrage View Post
what is best for raiding rly animal handler or spirit bond. i think animal handler cuz as i see it its better for my pet to hit more and do more damage than get 2%hp every 10 sec. imo spirit bond isnt so good at all but my guild master says otherway. wanted to see what you guys think
Animal Handler > Spirit Bond.

Because there is no other way to stack hit on your pet, that 4% makes a difference that can't be made up for otherwise; Spirit Bond can be replaced with a few mend pets here and there, along with perhaps sympathetic healers and 2pc T5.
#3177SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Indora
ok, let's asume there is a 0.5 seconds casttime which is affected by haste.

In addition, I would like to add a control wheather the steady shot prevent your auto shot from shooting.
This is important when you add random lag spikes to your calculation (IE four steadys without one auto).

For a complete auto clip, the time between the end of the steady shot and the start of the next one has to be lower than \frac{0.5}{1+\lambda}

Then your Algorithm should be:

Algorithm
  • given variables: W_s, L, \lambda (respectively weapon speed, lag/reaction time,and effective haste)
  • for m=1
  1. If

    1.5 - \frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{0.5}{1+\lambda}

    End. Steady only 'rotation'.

  2. Find n\in\mathbb{N} such that

    (1.5+L)n-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}-1.5+\frac{1.5+0.5}{1+\lambda}\le (1.5+L)(n+1)-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}
  3. If

    (1.5+L)n-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}<(1.5+L)n+\frac{0.5}{1+\lambda}

    then return (# of auto shots, # of steady shots)=(m,n)
    else m=m+1 and go to 2.


Changes:

Changed the start point of your auto shot to
L[-----)     ]L[-----)     ]
           ^
           0
And Increased the time where auto is delayed to
L[----------)          ]L[----------)          ]
  <------------->

Last edited by Indora : 03/23/08 at 3:01 PM.
#3178SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xylotism
I just changed from the typical 41/20 to a 44/14/3, opting to trade out Aimed Shot and Mortal Shots [+30% crit damage] for Hawk Eye [+6 Range] and Catlike Reflexes [+3% dodge, +9% pet dodge]... is this a viable switch, or is that lesser crit damage going to kill me later? I'm not quite sure why I got +range, so I'll probably move that to 1 point Aimed Shot, 2 points Mortal [+12% crit]...

Input?
#3179SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Felixalias
Originally Posted by xylotism View Post
I just changed from the typical 41/20 to a 44/14/3, opting to trade out Aimed Shot and Mortal Shots [+30% crit damage] for Hawk Eye [+6 Range] and Catlike Reflexes [+3% dodge, +9% pet dodge]... is this a viable switch, or is that lesser crit damage going to kill me later? I'm not quite sure why I got +range, so I'll probably move that to 1 point Aimed Shot, 2 points Mortal [+12% crit]...

Input?
Losing Mortal Shots is going to kill you.

For Hawk Eye, Although I hear it is very helpful on Vashj (I have not attempted her myself, so I wouldn't know), in most cases range shouldn't be that big a deal (at least in comparison to having 12% more critical strike bonus).

For Catlike reflexes, the majority of damage your pet should be taking is magical (from things like debuffs and AOEs), where dodge won't help; Pets shouldn't be taking any cleaves since they are nearly always behind the target, and if your pet manages to get aggro on a mob, 9% dodge isn't going to help it all that much.

They are simply talents you should be able to do without.
#3180SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xylotism
Fair enough, I suppose I'll stick with cookie-cutter after all.

Another question though, I'm stealing aggro from my pet [ravager] every fight, if I go for maximum DPS. Should I just relax on the steady shots, or feign, or is there something else I can do to manage aggro?

As it stands, I can spam Steady, steal aggro, feign, and spam more until the mob is dead, or I can just wait to use Steady every 2 auto shots or so [keeping an eye on the threat meter] and be fine. I feel like one way or another I'm hindering my DPS. This is all with or without Intimidation... it doesn't make too much difference, aside from stunning the mob for 5 seconds, giving a longer period before I overtake aggro.

Also, how important is Imp. Hunter's Mark? I took 5 points Efficiency instead, but I'm wondering if that's going to put a damper on my group benefits.
#3181SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Felixalias
Originally Posted by xylotism View Post
Another question though, I'm stealing aggro from my pet [ravager] every fight, if I go for maximum DPS. Should I just relax on the steady shots, or feign, or is there something else I can do to manage aggro?

As it stands, I can spam Steady, steal aggro, feign, and spam more until the mob is dead, or I can just wait to use Steady every 2 auto shots or so [keeping an eye on the threat meter] and be fine. I feel like one way or another I'm hindering my DPS. This is all with or without Intimidation... it doesn't make too much difference, aside from stunning the mob for 5 seconds, giving a longer period before I overtake aggro.
For solo work, I've given up on trying to get my pet to hold any decent aggro; Unless it is an elite mob (in which case I use Misdirection + Intimidation), I find standing at max range (within reason, of course), at killing the mob before it reaches me is the best strategy (allowing my pet's focus to be used solely on damaging the mob, rather than futile attempts to steal aggro back from me).

Originally Posted by xylotism View Post
Also, how important is Imp. Hunter's Mark? I took 5 points Efficiency instead, but I'm wondering if that's going to put a damper on my group benefits.
I have 5/5 efficiency myself as we have a Survival hunter who has 5/5 Hunters mark. I think it would depend on raid setup as to how much of a DPS gain it would be (it would always have a bit of a gain since imp hunters mark will apply to your pet). I think that this also depends on your mana consumption; For solo work, it could go either way, as less downtime is nice, but faster killing due to additional pet AP is nice too. For raids, logically the best solution would be for one hunter to spec into it, most likely the one with the highest mana pool, or the lowest mana consumption. I wouldn't worry as much over this one, however working out a plan for group buffs with your raid leader or hunter class leader sounds like a good step.
#3182SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Revoltep
Don Santos'

I have been out of the loop for a while as far as BM raiding goes.

I have used a Sunfury Bow for the duration of my raiding experience, but I recently acquired a Don Santos' rifle.
My question is, does the use of the 3:2 macro make the bow a higher dps weapon?

AP 1806
crit 29.44
hit capped
(wasn't sure if this was viable information)

Anyhow, I've toyed around a bit with Dr. Boom testing, but I've never been very good with accurately calculating my dps.
Could anybody help me out?
#3183SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3neoreziel
Haste rating on BM ?

Hi all, I have read a lot about bm and haste rating items, but I'm still a little bit confused about it. Basically I have always thought that haste rating was useless (or at least not so good as it could be on MM or Surv) for a spec that already has a shot speed increased, but, with the new patch 2.4 and new craftable items with haste rating, some other from zul aman, maybe badges and so on, getting items with that stat is not so difficoult, so I've started wondering if was worth to give haste rating a try. Considering that such kind of items don't have according to my opinion good stat except a little bit of AP, I would like to ask, is a good choice to use haste rating on a BM hunter with the new patch? How much haste rating is required in order to get a better shot rotation (I'm using vengeful bow with 3.00 shot speed) ? Too much haste rating can penalize the shot rotation?
ty
#3184SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Indora
With a 3.0 bow you can use a lot of hasterating.

When all your haste (including imp. Aspect of the Hawk and Drums of Battle if you use them with more than one in your group) is active, you shouldn't get over 1.6 - 1.8 speed.

This depents on your lag and 'reaction' time (-> time between mashing your button twice.. we really need a self-explanatory name for this ^^).

Let's asume your maximum speed ist 1.7
With IAotH, Serpent Swiftness, quiver and Drums of Battle you have:
3 / 1.15 / 1.2 / 1.15 / 1.05 = 1.8 speed.

1.8 / 1.7 = 1.06

This means: 6% more speed is still possible without delaying your autoshot.
In hasterating:
6 * 15,77 = 93

p.s.: You shouldn't use a /castsequence macro. In addition, your benefit of huge haste buffs (IE Rapid Fire or Heroism) decreases.

p.s.s.: Haste can still be a benefit although your auto shot is delayed with iAotH active. But this is very unlikely.
#3185SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kaladian
As a BM raiding hunter who has MH/BT on farm since Nov, I look at the new loot from SP and wonder what to do. Nothing really makes me drool other then the legendary bow and the t6 belt since RoS has never dropped his belt for us. Most mail has less +hit/+crit in exchange for +haste. I have had to work hard to get my +hit to the point it is now since we dont always run with a Moonie. I guess time will tell but the casters are getting a ton more haste which from what i understand is very helpful to them. Just wonder when the dust settles where we will be on the DPS charts which is all the matter at the end of the day.
#3186SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grymwish
Our guild has killed Archimonde for the past 3 weeks now. My pet dies so much during the fight that Im wanting to change his name to Kenny.

Ive recently switched to a Wind Serpent for this fight and have him only casting Lightning Breath to help him stay out of Doomfire spawning range. But when Im doomfire kiting, it still dies a lot . My question is: Does Fire Resistance help resist doomfires? I would assume yes, but our GM says Fire Resistance (on pets or players) does not help with resisting Doomfire at all.

Also any other suggestions on that fight to keep the pet alive?
#3187SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Eliirion
Originally Posted by grymwish View Post
Our guild has killed Archimonde for the past 3 weeks now. My pet dies so much during the fight that Im wanting to change his name to Kenny.

Ive recently switched to a Wind Serpent for this fight and have him only casting Lightning Breath to help him stay out of Doomfire spawning range. But when Im doomfire kiting, it still dies a lot . My question is: Does Fire Resistance help resist doomfires? I would assume yes, but our GM says Fire Resistance (on pets or players) does not help with resisting Doomfire at all.

Also any other suggestions on that fight to keep the pet alive?
Don't use it. He'll live longer .

In seriousness, I only call out my pet to break fears (or res him to break fears). Otherwise, he's pretty much just going to die at some point or another to grip or doomfire.
#3188SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Eliirion View Post
Don't use it. He'll live longer .

In seriousness, I only call out my pet to break fears (or res him to break fears). Otherwise, he's pretty much just going to die at some point or another to grip or doomfire.
Sounds about right. On Archimonde your pet is pretty much just there as a second (preemptive) method to break fears. For the most part, I'll usually only send my pet in right after popping BW for a little damage boost, then call it back after it fades. If you really want to get a little extra DPS out of your pet send your pet in, when there are no doomfires on your side, right as a doomfire spawns on the opposite side, then pull it back after ~10 seconds. Fire resist will not help your pet with doomfires at all, from what i've seen it cannot be resisted (partially or fully) and if your pet gets the debuff it's dead. Mend pet can't keep up on healing.
#3189SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ivaldi
Originally Posted by Felixalias View Post
For Hawk Eye, Although I hear it is very helpful on Vashj (I have not attempted her myself, so I wouldn't know), in most cases range shouldn't be that big a deal (at least in comparison to having 12% more critical strike bonus).
I've done Vashj and...I didn't think the range would've made that much difference. Perhaps I would've chased the striders around less. There ARE fights where it would make a significant difference, but where it really shines is pulling in 25 mans. I am sometimes the only hunter, OR we are all BM. Set up my MD, run in, distracting shot, arcane shot, Feign Death, and pray.

Originally Posted by Felixalias View Post
For raids, logically the best solution would be for one hunter to spec into it, most likely the one with the highest mana pool, or the lowest mana consumption. I wouldn't worry as much over this one, however working out a plan for group buffs with your raid leader or hunter class leader sounds like a good step.
This is counterintuitive. You should be using every global cooldown, and that means you'll be replacing a shot with a lower mana cost HM. So anyone can train it, and I recommend having at least two people in case someone is absent etc. It is important to make sure hunters understand not to reapply until it is close to wearing off, as they reset the stack bonus when they do.
#3190SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3alienangel
Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
Sounds about right. On Archimonde your pet is pretty much just there as a second (preemptive) method to break fears. For the most part, I'll usually only send my pet in right after popping BW for a little damage boost, then call it back after it fades. If you really want to get a little extra DPS out of your pet send your pet in, when there are no doomfires on your side, right as a doomfire spawns on the opposite side, then pull it back after ~10 seconds. Fire resist will not help your pet with doomfires at all, from what i've seen it cannot be resisted (partially or fully) and if your pet gets the debuff it's dead. Mend pet can't keep up on healing.
This sounds pretty inefficient. I leave my pet in the whole time unless there's an obvious stack of fires near archimonde's feet. I keep Imp Mend Pet ticking on him the whole fight as well, but I doubt the Imp part of it actually removes the Doomfire DoT. Every time it dies I res it and pot.

Some fights the pet ends up dying 4-6 times (and I do poorly on damage), others it only dies once or twice (and I do very well). In both cases the other DPS in my group have 3% damage up, which is worth my spending time keeping the pet alive.
#3191SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3alienangel
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
I've done Vashj and...I didn't think the range would've made that much difference. Perhaps I would've chased the striders around less.
This is counterintuitive. You should be using every global cooldown, and that means you'll be replacing a shot with a lower mana cost HM. So anyone can train it, and I recommend having at least two people in case someone is absent etc. It is important to make sure hunters understand not to reapply until it is close to wearing off, as they reset the stack bonus when they do.
People get Hawkeye for Vashj to kill the bats I think, not for strider/elemental DPS. I've done bats as MM with Hawk Eye, and it's doable but frustrating. I tried it as BM without Hawkeye and as far as I could tell it's impossible, you don't have the range to hit them even when they're right above you.
#3192SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cheeky
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
It is important to make sure hunters understand not to reapply until it is close to wearing off, as they reset the stack bonus when they do.
It is also important to know that refreshing Hunter's Mark maintains the current level of stacking.
#3193SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Felixalias
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
There ARE fights where it would make a significant difference, but where it really shines is pulling in 25 mans. I am sometimes the only hunter, OR we are all BM.
I hear that. Trying to pull Morogrim without Hawk Eye is ridiculous, especially when someone else runs ahead of you.. Our Survival hunter usually takes care of this.



Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
This is counterintuitive. You should be using every global cooldown, and that means you'll be replacing a shot with a lower mana cost HM. So anyone can train it, and I recommend having at least two people in case someone is absent etc. It is important to make sure hunters understand not to reapply until it is close to wearing off, as they reset the stack bonus when they do.
I agree you should be using every GCD, and I usually wait until 10 seconds left to re-apply Hunters Mark. Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean here - Are you saying that it is worth 2 hunters spec'ing out of Efficiency, so that they are using 1-2 less GCDs a fight? Again, our Survival hunter is usually shouldered with this task.
#3194SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Relwin
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
People get Hawkeye for Vashj to kill the bats I think, not for strider/elemental DPS. I've done bats as MM with Hawk Eye, and it's doable but frustrating. I tried it as BM without Hawkeye and as far as I could tell it's impossible, you don't have the range to hit them even when they're right above you.
Hawkeye makes it easier certainly, but it's entirely doable as BM.

The trick is to make sure all your bat DPS know when one is coming and to prime your instants for when it's in range. The key spot to stand is right on the slight rise towards the inner section of the chamber. This gives you an extra yard or two of elevation for one more special or so. Granted, this will work every time with 3-4 DPS getting the bats as they come in, but I make no claims for it being able to run around and pick off bats. (but why bother is letting them get through in the first place?)
#3195SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
This sounds pretty inefficient. I leave my pet in the whole time unless there's an obvious stack of fires near archimonde's feet. I keep Imp Mend Pet ticking on him the whole fight as well, but I doubt the Imp part of it actually removes the Doomfire DoT. Every time it dies I res it and pot.

Some fights the pet ends up dying 4-6 times (and I do poorly on damage), others it only dies once or twice (and I do very well). In both cases the other DPS in my group have 3% damage up, which is worth my spending time keeping the pet alive.
I don't dispute the fact that it's inefficient, but it's the only way to make sure that my pet is alive when i need it to break a fear and keep myself away from a doomfire when my PvP trinket is on cooldown. Mend pet's only use in this fight is to remove grip if the dispeller who happens to be on my side doesn't have pet bars for grid. the extra 3-4 seconds your pet will live with doomfire on it isn't worth the global cooldown, and the marginal amount of extra damage the pet is able to do before a doomfire ends up eventually killing it, isn't worth the mana cost cost of 4-6 revive pets and the risk of not being able to break a fear and taking extra doomfire damage myself.
#3196SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grymwish
Originally Posted by Relwin View Post
Hawkeye makes it easier certainly, but it's entirely doable as BM.

The trick is to make sure all your bat DPS know when one is coming and to prime your instants for when it's in range. The key spot to stand is right on the slight rise towards the inner section of the chamber. This gives you an extra yard or two of elevation for one more special or so. Granted, this will work every time with 3-4 DPS getting the bats as they come in, but I make no claims for it being able to run around and pick off bats. (but why bother is letting them get through in the first place?)

We normally have 4 hunters in for Vashj (3 BM and 1 Surv). One covering each side killing elementals in phase 2. For phase 3, we converge at the 9:00 position of the map. With 4 of us there, we down the bats with Arcane and Multishot easily. Our one survival hunter with hawkeye can also run around and pickup any that happened to get by us. Also, we have a single healer dedicated to primarily heal us on phase 3 (normally our weakest healer of the raid) in case a hunter is DoT'ed by Vashj. Makes phase 3 cake if your other raid dps can deal out damage on Vashj, which has never been a problem for us.
#3197SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Revoltep
Originally Posted by grymwish View Post
We normally have 4 hunters in for Vashj (3 BM and 1 Surv). One covering each side killing elementals in phase 2. For phase 3, we converge at the 9:00 position of the map. With 4 of us there, we down the bats with Arcane and Multishot easily. Our one survival hunter with hawkeye can also run around and pickup any that happened to get by us. Also, we have a single healer dedicated to primarily heal us on phase 3 (normally our weakest healer of the raid) in case a hunter is DoT'ed by Vashj. Makes phase 3 cake if your other raid dps can deal out damage on Vashj, which has never been a problem for us.

I get the gist from the last few posts that the conventional wisdom concerning spore bats is to have all the hunter's murder the first few to get some poison free DPS time on Vashj for the rest of the raid.

Alternatively- this being the strategy that has worked best for my guild in our past Vashj kills- you CAN ignore the bats completely. While you do have to spend some extra time dealing with poison spots, the added dps of 2-4 hunters (possibly approaching or surpassing 4k) can help to finish the fight so much faster that, in my experience, it causes the bats not to matter.
#3198SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3fangless
Just a quick question,

When I plug a [Flask of Relentless Assault] in the hunter spreadsheet, it only comes up as 2dps more than [Elixir of Major Agility], is this correct ?
#3199SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Intermission
Originally Posted by fangless View Post
Just a quick question,

When I plug a [Flask of Relentless Assault] in the hunter spreadsheet, it only comes up as 2dps more than [Elixir of Major Agility], is this correct ?
That sounds accurate.

Flasks are cheaper when learning content, but elixir combo is often best (depending on gear, and Survival obviously is a no brainer)
#3200SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ivaldi
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
It is also important to know that refreshing Hunter's Mark maintains the current level of stacking.
Oops! Thank you. Now you WOULD want to keep hunters without IHM from overwriting your IHM right?
#3201SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Felixalias
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
Oops! Thank you. Now you WOULD want to keep hunters without IHM from overwriting your IHM right?
It says "A more powerful spell is already active".

Last edited by Felixalias : 03/24/08 at 9:13 PM. Reason: was unclear
#3202SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xylotism
Originally Posted by Felixalias View Post
For solo work, I've given up on trying to get my pet to hold any decent aggro; Unless it is an elite mob (in which case I use Misdirection + Intimidation), I find standing at max range (within reason, of course), at killing the mob before it reaches me is the best strategy (allowing my pet's focus to be used solely on damaging the mob, rather than futile attempts to steal aggro back from me).



I have 5/5 efficiency myself as we have a Survival hunter who has 5/5 Hunters mark. I think it would depend on raid setup as to how much of a DPS gain it would be (it would always have a bit of a gain since imp hunters mark will apply to your pet). I think that this also depends on your mana consumption; For solo work, it could go either way, as less downtime is nice, but faster killing due to additional pet AP is nice too. For raids, logically the best solution would be for one hunter to spec into it, most likely the one with the highest mana pool, or the lowest mana consumption. I wouldn't worry as much over this one, however working out a plan for group buffs with your raid leader or hunter class leader sounds like a good step.
Ah, very cool. Thanks for the input Felix, I'll take it into consideration.
#3203SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0ekaw
Originally Posted by Eliirion View Post
Don't use it. He'll live longer .

In seriousness, I only call out my pet to break fears (or res him to break fears). Otherwise, he's pretty much just going to die at some point or another to grip or doomfire.
I haven't stepped foot in MH yet, but this has to be good news from todays 2.4 patch notes today no?

* Archimonde's Grip of the Legion will no longer target pets.
#3204SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Cranch
Originally Posted by Intermission View Post
Flasks are cheaper when learning content
Depends on how long it takes for the raid to recover from a wipe, how often you're able to feign successfully, and the relative cost of flask to elixir.

For me, it's ~15 minutes, 50%, and 45g versus 2.5g. The elixir is a big win for me.
#3205SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0alienangel
Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
I don't dispute the fact that it's inefficient, but it's the only way to make sure that my pet is alive when i need it to break a fear and keep myself away from a doomfire when my PvP trinket is on cooldown. Mend pet's only use in this fight is to remove grip if the dispeller who happens to be on my side doesn't have pet bars for grid. the extra 3-4 seconds your pet will live with doomfire on it isn't worth the global cooldown, and the marginal amount of extra damage the pet is able to do before a doomfire ends up eventually killing it, isn't worth the mana cost cost of 4-6 revive pets and the risk of not being able to break a fear and taking extra doomfire damage myself.
You can actually break fears using BW? I could have sworn I'd tried it while feared and just couldn't use the ability.

Saving the pet just for that still seems counter productive though . Between the occasional tremor totem and pre-emptive moving away from fires before fears, I don't think I've had the pvp trinket on cooldown when I needed it to avoid running into a fire more than once that I can remember - am I just lucky? There have been a fair few attempts/kills where I haven't had to trinket at all.
#3206SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Eliirion
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
You can actually break fears using BW? I could have sworn I'd tried it while feared and just couldn't use the ability.

Saving the pet just for that still seems counter productive though . Between the occasional tremor totem and pre-emptive moving away from fires before fears, I don't think I've had the pvp trinket on cooldown when I needed it to avoid running into a fire more than once that I can remember - am I just lucky? There have been a fair few attempts/kills where I haven't had to trinket at all.
You can't. But since fear is a 1.5 second cast and BW is instant, it's not exactly hard to hit it in time. I also send my pet in during bw/trinket/rapid fire/happy times but that's only really to get SOME extra DPS, not because I actually plan on having my pet be a juggernaut and live an extended period of time. More often than not doomfire will spawn directly under him in the next 10-20 seconds and he'll die anyway. If I pull him back early... well, he might run through some or he might just pick it up on his own when he gets feared / I get chased.

I do, however, send him in the second I get air bursted. You get thrown far enough away your pet despawns (and loses doomfire too). I've only had it save him once in 9-10 months of killing Archimonde though, so I wouldn't exactly rely on that. If you spend time rezzing your pet 6 times over a fight (so at least 18 seconds of cast time - way more if untalented) you will be wasting a fair bit of potential personal DPS time, not to mention exorbitant mana costs and interrupted rotations at a time where you could be dps'ing -- which can be hard to find. I know that personally I spend a fair bit of time running the hell away. If you're wasting that not-running-the-hell-away time ressing, just so you can then run the hell away again... I just don't get the point. You would've been better off running your rotation for 10-20 seconds.

The only time I would concede the point is when the stars align and a doomfire never comes near you the entire time. In which case the lost dps time to ressing your pet might be made up by pet dps + +3% dmg to party (that is, when they aren't running the hell away).



Edit: I used to be pretty badly undergeared, and would quite frequently be at the bottom of our DPS. This was due to 2 factors: 1) Shitty gear and 2) I was overly safe and truly avoided doomfires like the plague.

I found the key to this fight is that when you finally get DPS time on Archie you really just need to blow everything you have. It's consistently put me in the 5-8 overall dps on him since (behind 4 melee and whichever caster got lucky and the stars aligned for, usually). If you're wasting that dps time ressing your pet you simply won't put up the numbers you could be putting up.
#3207SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Osse
You cant break fears hence you have to keep your eyes on the cast bar every time BW is up.
#3208SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0delle
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
You can actually break fears using BW? I could have sworn I'd tried it while feared and just couldn't use the ability.
I believe what Sarutobi is refering to is using beastial wrath when the fear cooldown is up/being cast. It's not usable if you yourself are feared but I have used it in the past right before you know fear is going to be cast making you immune or when just my pet has been feared and I didn't want him running to far off getting into trouble.
#3209SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0alienangel
Originally Posted by delle View Post
I believe what Sarutobi is refering to is using beastial wrath when the fear cooldown is up/being cast. It's not usable if you yourself are feared but I have used it in the past right before you know fear is going to be cast making you immune or when just my pet has been feared and I didn't want him running to far off getting into trouble.
Ah right, so just using it to avoid a fear. I have saved BW for that purpose, but only up to the next fear (whether I'm near a fire or not), and the pet was in or immediately sent in to melee once BW was cast.

I suppose I just haven't killed him enough to avoid overly lucky streaks then, I've only had maybe 12 kills, half of which were pampered with a tremor totem (making fears not a worry) and an spriest (making pet ressing not a worry on the handful of times it's died several times in one attempt).
#3210SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Azarias
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
Kamma just has the ratios reversed. His 2:3 is auto:steady, 3:2 is steady:auto so he is talking about the same rotation.
What about his 1:2 rotation? Is that the same as a 1:1 rotation? Also, is the amount of haste needed for a 3:2 rotation the same as the amount of haste needed for a 1:1 rotation?

I'm basically trying to find out how much haste is needed to get the 2.8 speed crossbow down to a 1:1 rotation with a 100 / 100-150 latency, so if someone could specifially awnser me that I'd be happy as well .
#3211SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0neoreziel
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
With a 3.0 bow you can use a lot of hasterating.

When all your haste (including imp. Aspect of the Hawk and Drums of Battle if you use them with more than one in your group) is active, you shouldn't get over 1.6 - 1.8 speed.

This depents on your lag and 'reaction' time (-> time between mashing your button twice.. we really need a self-explanatory name for this ^^).

Let's asume your maximum speed ist 1.7
With IAotH, Serpent Swiftness, quiver and Drums of Battle you have:
3 / 1.15 / 1.2 / 1.15 / 1.05 = 1.8 speed.

1.8 / 1.7 = 1.06

This means: 6% more speed is still possible without delaying your autoshot.
In hasterating:
6 * 15,77 = 93

p.s.: You shouldn't use a /castsequence macro. In addition, your benefit of huge haste buffs (IE Rapid Fire or Heroism) decreases.

p.s.s.: Haste can still be a benefit although your auto shot is delayed with iAotH active. But this is very unlikely.
ty for answer: I'll give it a try. One more thing. Better to use t6 items (and equal) or some with haste rating (for ex. the gloves dropped in bt). I mean, If I have only few items that give haste, is it a good choice to use em or not? With em i lose a lot of crit
#3212SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Balidor
Sorry to interrupt gents, but I was wondering if anyone had heard anything about the Shard of Contempt yet? It's not in the spreadsheet yet, so I can't check it myself, but is it worth using as a hunter?
#3213SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Tune
@Balidor

It's definitely not worth using as a hunter. The expertise is useless, and the proc has a 45 second internal cooldown with a 10% chance to proc.
#3214SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Balidor
In that case, should I use the Shadowsong Panther trinket? Or is the Bloodlust still superior?
#3215SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Tune
Shadowsong Panther (133 normalized ap) is a slight upgrade over Bloodlost Brooch (115 normalized ap). Also, if you can get Berserker's Call, it's better than either of them.
#3216SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Reebz
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Ah right, so just using it to avoid a fear. I have saved BW for that purpose, but only up to the next fear (whether I'm near a fire or not), and the pet was in or immediately sent in to melee once BW was cast.
You can use BW to break a CC on your pet, you just can't use it to break CC on you.
#3217SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0sparnicus
There seems debate on whether the Shivering Felspine upgrades the HoD, and now that it is a confirmed trash drop (rather than 3rd boss), the significance of the debate is pushed forward at least a few weeks. I was hoping for some input from a few other places.

It's absolutely a DPS upgrade, but at the expense of 30 hit (or 20 with a hit gem), and the stamina.

(No offense, but responses from players not in this gear bracket are probably not going to be very useful, btw).
#3218SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Speech
Originally Posted by sparnicus View Post
There seems debate on whether the Shivering Felspine upgrades the HoD, and now that it is a confirmed trash drop (rather than 3rd boss), the significance of the debate is pushed forward at least a few weeks. I was hoping for some input from a few other places.

It's absolutely a DPS upgrade, but at the expense of 30 hit (or 20 with a hit gem), and the stamina.

(No offense, but responses from players not in this gear bracket are probably not going to be very useful, btw).

It pushes my attack speed with legionkiller from 2.07 to 2.00. I've yet to do an actual log to see what it does to my dps. It should be noted though that t6 boots and belt have hit along with the leather LWing chest and gloves. I do not see the hit loss too sorely missed as those patterns / pieces start to drop.
#3219SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by sparnicus View Post
There seems debate on whether the Shivering Felspine upgrades the HoD, and now that it is a confirmed trash drop (rather than 3rd boss), the significance of the debate is pushed forward at least a few weeks. I was hoping for some input from a few other places.

It's absolutely a DPS upgrade, but at the expense of 30 hit (or 20 with a hit gem), and the stamina.

(No offense, but responses from players not in this gear bracket are probably not going to be very useful, btw).
I wasn't aware there was ever any question as to whether it was an upgrade. Even compared to [Twinblade of the Phoenix],which is superior to HoD if you're hit capped, it's nearly a 50 DPS upgrade (with my current gear). [The Blade of Harbingers] from the badge vendors is also a significant upgrade, although less so.
#3220SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Hellraza
Tried searching, but I couldnt find any info of the following thing:
Does Screech stack with Imp. Demo shout? Is it worth spending some time to level a bird and use it on hard hitting bosses or its just a waste of time / dps.

Any info will be really helpful.
#3221SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Hellraza View Post
Tried searching, but I couldnt find any info of the following thing:
Does Screech stack with Imp. Demo shout? Is it worth spending some time to level a bird and use it on hard hitting bosses or its just a waste of time / dps.

Any info will be really helpful.
Yes screech stacks - but having a bird for raids is probably a job for a marksman or survival hunter if you have one.
Thinking over it though, Improved demo shout would take you over the cap for AP reduction on a mob, so screech would only be offsetting curse of recklessness anyway.
#3222SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Khassandra
Everything I've read says that the Wolfslayer is the best weapon in the game for BM spec. But when I plug my data into Cheeky's spreadsheet, it gives me 43 dps LESS than the Arcanite Steam-Pistol. Does anyone have any idea why?
#3223SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Sarutobi
That would be due to the fact that you are below the hit cap. The loss of hit rating outweighs the benefits of the increased number of shots you would get from using WSR.
#3224SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Khassandra
Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
That would be due to the fact that you are below the hit cap. The loss of hit rating outweighs the benefits of the increased number of shots you would get from using WSR.
That can't be it, I don't think, or at least not the whole reason. Using Spicy Hot Talbuk raises my hit to cap, and still the spreadsheet says the Arcanite Steam-Pistol does more dps for me.
#3225SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Tune
Originally Posted by sparnicus View Post
There seems debate on whether the Shivering Felspine upgrades the HoD, and now that it is a confirmed trash drop (rather than 3rd boss), the significance of the debate is pushed forward at least a few weeks. I was hoping for some input from a few other places.

It's absolutely a DPS upgrade, but at the expense of 30 hit (or 20 with a hit gem), and the stamina.

(No offense, but responses from players not in this gear bracket are probably not going to be very useful, btw).
I'm going to be sticking with 2x[Dagger of Bad Mojo] until I can upgrade them to [Shiv of Exsanguination].
#3226SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Tune View Post
I'm going to be sticking with 2x[Dagger of Bad Mojo] until I can upgrade them to [Shiv of Exsanguination].
Assuming you have the idea gear setup now, daggers are indeed the best option until Shiv's become available. Nothing beats Shiv's.
#3227SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0m1rado
Boar Threat

Last night I hit 62 on my hunter and I've suddenly been pulling mobs off my boar almost constantly, BW/Intimidation or not. Though, I usually don't pull them off for a good bit longer when I use BW/Intimidation.

I'm used to seeing numbers like 5-7k threat immediately after a charge/intim/growl combo, but recently it seems to be barely topping 1k from the get-go, and not getting enough after to outpace my DPS against the mob's health...

Was there a nerf to boar threat or something with 2.4, or is steady shot just that much more threat via damage? I've switched from the old omen to the 2.4 version, which uses threat-2.0 instead of 1.0 I think, maybe that's what is to blame for the different numbers.
#3228SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Pixen
Apparently the Boar attack sequence has been changed from Charge > Growl > Melee to Charge > Melee > Growl, thus the AP is being attributed to the orange hit instead of the growl. Whether this was intentional or not is unknown.
#3229SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0alienangel
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Assuming you have the idea gear setup now, daggers are indeed the best option until Shiv's become available. Nothing beats Shiv's.
Hm, I was poking around with v43 of the spreadsheet last night, and my DPS with Felspine was higher than my dps with dual bad mojo, assuming hitcap from other slots. Was rather surprised actually, since I didn't expect the haste to be all that helpful, considering RF + DST + QS puts me below 1.5s anyway.

Edit: this is without madness and double ArP rings though, which I'd think would be the things from an ideal set-up that would significantly bias between felspine/mojos that I can think of.
#3230SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by sparnicus View Post
There seems debate on whether the Shivering Felspine upgrades the HoD, and now that it is a confirmed trash drop (rather than 3rd boss), the significance of the debate is pushed forward at least a few weeks. I was hoping for some input from a few other places.

It's absolutely a DPS upgrade, but at the expense of 30 hit (or 20 with a hit gem), and the stamina.

(No offense, but responses from players not in this gear bracket are probably not going to be very useful, btw).
Guess I can't comment on this since I'm not smart enough to be in T6+ gearing.

Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Hm, I was poking around with v43 of the spreadsheet last night, and my DPS with Felspine was higher than my dps with dual bad mojo, assuming hitcap from other slots. Was rather surprised actually, since I didn't expect the haste to be all that helpful, considering RF + DST + QS puts me below 1.5s anyway.

Edit: this is without madness and double ArP rings though, which I'd think would be the things from an ideal set-up that would significantly bias between felspine/mojos that I can think of.
Rapid Fire isn't modeled in the spreadsheet in any sort of normalized way. And you are still spending more time out of Quick Shots than in it, so a buff to non-hasted DPS through static haste is still going to look pretty good.
#3231SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
That can't be it, I don't think, or at least not the whole reason. Using Spicy Hot Talbuk raises my hit to cap, and still the spreadsheet says the Arcanite Steam-Pistol does more dps for me.
Unless you raid in different gear than your armory shows you in, you would be at 125 hit rating with WSR and hit food, which is 17 below the cap.

Also, taking another look at your gear, you'd be better served losing some of the haste rating if you were to switch to WSR. With 103 passive haste rating you would have a bit of clipping to deal with during quick shots/bloodlust/rapid fire/etc which could also be why you're not seeing that much of a gain (in this case a loss) by going with a faster weapon.
#3232SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Khassandra
Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
Unless you raid in different gear than your armory shows you in, you would be at 125 hit rating with WSR and hit food, which is 17 below the cap.
My armory shows what I'm currently wearing/equipping. Using +20 hit food with WSR still gives me significantly lower dps than using the ASP without hit food (which would have me at 124 hit rating). That's why I think there's something else aside from hit rating that's affecting things.

Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
Also, taking another look at your gear, you'd be better served losing some of the haste rating if you were to switch to WSR. With 103 passive haste rating you would have a bit of clipping to deal with during quick shots/bloodlust/rapid fire/etc which could also be why you're not seeing that much of a gain (in this case a loss) by going with a faster weapon.
I'm not clipping much, if at all, according to my WWS. I have no complaints over the damage I'm actually doing with the Arcanite Steam-Pistol. I'm just wondering why it shows a significantly higher dps in the spreadsheet than the Wolfslayer, which is supposed to be the best weapon for BM hunters.
#3233SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
I'm not clipping much, if at all, according to my WWS. I have no complaints over the damage I'm actually doing with the Arcanite Steam-Pistol. I'm just wondering why it shows a significantly higher dps in the spreadsheet than the Wolfslayer, which is supposed to be the best weapon for BM hunters.
Not sure if I'm misreading your response, or you misread my original statement, but I was implying that the passive haste would cause clipping with WSR, not the steam pistol.

Last edited by Sarutobi : 03/27/08 at 11:47 PM.
#3234SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0fangless
Originally Posted by sparnicus View Post
(No offense, but responses from players not in this gear bracket are probably not going to be very useful, btw).
I lul'd
#3235SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Reebz
Originally Posted by sparnicus View Post
(No offense, but responses from players not in this gear bracket are probably not going to be very useful, btw).
None taken.

However, I feel its my duty to point out that this entire game revolves around: numbers, maths and formulae.

You don't have to have the gear to understand the benefit it may or may not provide. Just a calculator and some know-how.
#3236SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Khassandra
Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
Not sure if I'm misreading your response, or you misread my original statement, but I was implying that the passive haste would cause clipping with WSR, not the steam pistol.
I understood. What I mean is that even when using WSR, I don't seem to be having much of a clipping issue.

The point is almost moot, since our server is about to activate phase 3 and I'll have the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes as soon as it does. Just wondering why is all.
#3237SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Rokh
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Assuming you have the idea gear setup now, daggers are indeed the best option until Shiv's become available. Nothing beats Shiv's.
Take a look at The Blade of Harbingers too. With my gear setup, switching some gems around, it's actually a significant upgrade until I get a Felspine from trash.
#3238SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Cyrice
Best Shot Rotation to use?

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the best shot rotation is to use...currently I use the following:

For Higher Damage but more mana use:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

For lower damage but less mana use:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I also use the BloodLust Brooch so that's in there as well so that will go off. Is this what I should be using or does anyone have any better recommendations? I tried looking through these posts but and I did find some shot rotations, but it still left me wondering what is the universally accepted best macro to use. Anyway, I appreciate your help!
#3239SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Admeta
Originally Posted by sparnicus View Post
There seems debate on whether the Shivering Felspine upgrades the HoD, and now that it is a confirmed trash drop (rather than 3rd boss), the significance of the debate is pushed forward at least a few weeks. I was hoping for some input from a few other places.

It's absolutely a DPS upgrade, but at the expense of 30 hit (or 20 with a hit gem), and the stamina.

(No offense, but responses from players not in this gear bracket are probably not going to be very useful, btw).
I have this type of gear... but I fail to understand how you can reason that you must have this gear to make comment. What are you, an Elitist Jerk? (pun intended)

I am always interested in what people like Cheeky have to say, regardless of the gear he/she is using. I don't see how someones gear has any bearing, provided they know what they are talking about.

Last edited by Admeta : 03/28/08 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Add an additional comment.
#3240SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0greensack
my personal rotation

hey i use a the following macro and for 18 seconds my dps is insane... if anyone sees anything wrong with it plz post something

/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast (orc racial) forgot name
/cast Bloodlust Brooch
/cast Rapid Fire

and it has a 2min CD on it and i can usualy get it off a few times in most bopss fights... generally 4 times because most 25m bosses have a 10m enrage timer and hey i cant verywell pop that immediatly or the tank wont get any aggro... even with a md t start... i used this once on lootreaver w/ a md on the tank and i Always open up w/ an aimed shot... so i md tank then aimshot for 4k then i use my general shot rotation

/cast Autoshot
/cast Steady Shot

about 2 times through my rotation after md wore off i pulled off the tanks and i got molly-whopped...

i always have to fd immediatly after i pop the macro because i always climb to tthe top of omen... this is also amazing for arena like wow... i had a 3v3 w/ an ele shaman and holy paladin prior to s3 the group was unstoppable... me and the ele shaman would unleash on the other teams heals i would cast intimidation instantly and b4 intimidation would end the healer was dead... it was soo much dmg in a tiny little bit of time... of course this macro would work best for orcs...because of the racial... but hey this spec was unstoppable

if anyone sees anything wrong with this strat gimi a shout... it works real well for me
#3241SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by greensack View Post
hey i use a the following macro and for 18 seconds my dps is insane... if anyone sees anything wrong with it plz post something

/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast (orc racial) forgot name
/cast Bloodlust Brooch
/cast Rapid Fire

and it has a 2min CD on it

if anyone sees anything wrong with this strat gimi a shout... it works real well for me
Rapid Fire can only be talented down to a 3 minute cooldown, not 2.
#3242SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Teldra
Originally Posted by greensack View Post

/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast (orc racial) forgot name
/cast Bloodlust Brooch
/cast Rapid Fire
I too use this rotation (minus the orc racial) for excellent burst damage - but I always FD **before** I use it. That way if FD is resisted I don't end up pulling aggro off the tank and wiping the raid.
#3243SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Rokh View Post
Take a look at The Blade of Harbingers too. With my gear setup, switching some gems around, it's actually a significant upgrade until I get a Felspine from trash.
It's all about stacking the armor penetration. Take a look at my post in "the best possible dps (using cheeky's spreadsheet)" thread. It's on page 5.
#3244SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Pixen
Is rapid fire ever worth working into a BW macro once you have a weapon of reasonable speed? I'm using a 2.60 speed bow currently, which puts it at 1.88 speed after SS and quiver haste. RF would put it at 1.35 speed, which would cause some serious clipping. What do you guys generally do about RF?
#3245SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Reebz
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
It's all about stacking the armor penetration. Take a look at my post in "the best possible dps (using cheeky's spreadsheet)" thread. It's on page 5.
I agree with you Kamaa, wholeheartedly!

As a "latency challenged" Oceanic player, I'm a big fan of armour penetration since stacking haste is of no conseqeunce to me unless I want the extra headaches of more auto clips.
#3246SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Greenpiggy
Originally Posted by Pixen View Post
Is rapid fire ever worth working into a BW macro once you have a weapon of reasonable speed? I'm using a 2.60 speed bow currently, which puts it at 1.88 speed after SS and quiver haste. RF would put it at 1.35 speed, which would cause some serious clipping. What do you guys generally do about RF?
Pop it with trinkets and TBW
Whats the alternative? you can pop it when you don't have those things up and you're still clipping, but without an extra 10% damage and whatever trinket bonus you have.
#3247SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Intermission
I would not recommend using Rapid Fire exclusively with BW. I have ~5 "cooldown" buttons in a line on an action bar:

Rapid Fire, Blood Fury, Zerkers Call, Beastial Wrath*, All of them w/o Blood Fury, All of them w/ Blood Fury.

*I havent been BM for a while though.

I used to use the "All of them..." macros quite often, however I rarely do now, if ever. Simply because you want to make sure you dont use Rapid Fire while Blood Lusted, but you do want to use your trinkets/BW while lusted or under rapid.
#3248SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Greenpiggy
Yes thats the only exeption, never pop RF while under Bloodlust.
(Or Haste drums as well)
#3249SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Etspiritus
Does weapon speed matter with a 3:2 rotation?
#3250SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Etspiritus View Post
Does weapon speed matter with a 3:2 rotation?
Only that it's better and more mana efficient with a slower weapon.
#3251SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Tomcool
I have used a Ravager only during my BM time. My guild just recently cleared TK and are working through Hyjal/BT. I am wondering if or when windserpents do more DPS than ravagers. I have heard once your crit is past 30% and I have heard Ravagers will always outdps windserpents as BM.
#3252SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Tomcool View Post
I have used a Ravager only during my BM time. My guild just recently cleared TK and are working through Hyjal/BT. I am wondering if or when windserpents do more DPS than ravagers. I have heard once your crit is past 30% and I have heard Ravagers will always outdps windserpents as BM.
I haven't done the math extensively, but you can see the work on Cheeky's spreadsheet. Windserpent has been better for me for quite some time now.
#3253SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Indora
Cheeky's Spreadsheet is a bit inaccurate with calculating your benefit of Go for the Throat.
It assumes the whole focus can be used by your pet.

Thus, you shouldn't get a windserpent at the point the spreadsheet claim it is better than a ravager, but a few % crit later.

Last edited by Indora : 03/31/08 at 11:32 AM.
#3254SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Nexdeus
Windserpent has been better for me for quite some time now.
That being said, I assume you use the new Steady/Auto Macro with Lightning breath as a substitute for KC ?
#3255SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Tune
Originally Posted by Nexdeus View Post
That being said, I assume you use the new Steady/Auto Macro with Lightning breath as a substitute for KC ?
Negative, you add LB in a new line underneath KC. It should look something like this:

/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
#3256SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Tune View Post
Negative, you add LB in a new line underneath KC. It should look something like this:

/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
Drop the castsequence. I can't think of a single good reason to use castsequence these days.
/castrandom Steady Shot, !Auto Shot

or

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
#3257SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Indora
Drop the castsequence. I can't think of a single good reason to use castsequence these days.
-manaefficiency (Yes, I saw your disclaimer ^^)
-low latency + fast weapon ([Consortium Blaster])
#3258SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Exbox
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Only that it's better and more mana efficient with a slower weapon.
That and if it's too slow you lose out on shots.
#3259SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0alienangel
While we're pointing out issues with /cast macros, I'll chip in to point out that with my crappy computer, spamming a /cast macro kills my FPS, spamming a /castsequence one doesn't.
#3260SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
I haven't done the math extensively, but you can see the work on Cheeky's spreadsheet. Windserpent has been better for me for quite some time now.
I tired a Windserpent for a raid, it was coming in a bit less than the Ravager I normally take. I attribute this to 2 facts:
1 - As was stated, I don't model the "focus cap", and as such show a faster rate of usage than you would see in game.
2 - Because it requires me to press a key to cast Lightning Breath, it doesn't happen as fast as the server can auto-cast Gore, and when I am in motion to avoid Death & Decay, fires, run to the Infernal tank, etc. This "wastes" focus, and lowers the frequency even more from an ideal.

Maybe when my crit rate is a bit higher (40%+ in raid settings with Feral, Kings, and GoA right now) I'll try again, but since we're just starting to get into T6 content I need to make sure I bring as much consistent DPS to the table as possible.
#3261SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0alienangel
On the topic of focus caps, does anyone notice their focus bar doing strange things? I've had occasion to watch it for a few 10s of seconds at a stretch, and it seems to spend surprisingly large amounts of time stuck around 50%. This is using a wind serpent with LB macroed to a /cast macro, BD and GftT, ~35% crit. I'd expect it to either be capped at 100%, at around 70%, or empty fairly often. Is it just filling to 100% then getting used so often that the display just looks like a stable 50%?

I've never tried comparing my pet's total LB casts to the number of GCDs available during a fight, probably should.
#3262SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Reebz
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Drop the castsequence. I can't think of a single good reason to use castsequence these days.
I can't either.

I went from 900dps to 1.1k by switching from a sequence to a random.

Get some mana oils/pots if you're having issues with your mana pool - you'd be crazy not to take up a "free" 20% increase in dps.
#3263SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Lactose
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
model the "focus cap", and as such show a faster rate of usage than you would see in game.
2 - Because it requires me to press a key to cast Lightning Breath, it doesn't happen as fast as the server can auto-cast Gore, and when I am in motion to avoid Death & Decay, fires, run to the Infernal tank, etc. This "wastes" focus, and lowers the frequency even more from an ideal.
I've found that, once the pet is in melee, with no further movement/repositioning expected, turning on auto cast works better than spamming it yourself. For stand and deliver type fights, I start with spamming manually, then activate auto cast ~10 seconds in.
Of course, for a lot of fights this isn't very viable, but the option is there.
#3264SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kamaa
Let's be realistic here. The #1 reason to have a Wind Serpent is because you can get one to match your armor. With your T5 gear use a blue one. I also suggest using a [Azure Whelpling] to match. If you're wearing T6 then nothing beats a red wind serpent from blades edge and of course the latest rage to match, [Phoenix Hatchling]. All of this looks much better if you're playing a Blood Elf. Orcs with your DPS racials need not apply.
#3265SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Let's be realistic here. The #1 reason to have a Wind Serpent is because you can get one to match your armor. With your T5 gear use a blue one. I also suggest using a [Azure Whelpling] to match. If you're wearing T6 then nothing beats a red wind serpent from blades edge and of course the latest rage to match, [Phoenix Hatchling]. All of this looks much better if you're playing a Blood Elf. Orcs with your DPS racials need not apply.
Actually the #1 reason is that they eat conjured bread . I'll happily take a 5 dps hit to not have to worry about pet food.
#3266SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Actually the #1 reason is that they eat conjured bread . I'll happily take a 5 dps hit to not have to worry about pet food.
I'll concede to that.
#3267SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
Kamaa, here's a further increasement of your algorithm:

K[L-----)     ]K[L-----)     ]K[L-----)     ]
Where K is your "reaction-"time (Btw, we really need a self explanatory name for this. :>) and L your latency.

(And in addition, as mentionend before

Startpoint of t_a
K[L-----)     ]K[L-----)     ]
            ^
            0
t_a starts \frac{0.5}{1+\lambda} after the end of the steady.
In addition, the interval in which the auto is delayed is increased by \frac{0.5}{1+\lambda}, too.

K[L----------)          ]K[L----------)          ]
   <------------->
This changes:

S=\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}+K+L
R=1.5 + K

nR+L<t_a<nR+S
changes to
nR+L+K<t_a<nR+S+\frac{0.5}{1+\lambda}



The whole new algorithm:
  1. Find n\in\mathbb{N} such that

    (1.5+K)n-\frac{1.5}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}<(1.5+K)n+\frac{0.5}{1+\lambda}
  2. If

    (1.5+K)n-\frac{2}{1+\lambda}<\frac{mW_s}{1+\lambda}<(1.5+K)n

    then return (# of auto shots, # of steady shots)=(m,n)
    else m=m+1 and go to 1.

edit: mmh, I'm sure there are still mistakes... I will edit it later.

Last edited by Indora : Yesterday at 7:51 AM.
#3268SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Abbichum
Being a jewelcrafter i was looking forward to make [Design: Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] since it has more average attack power than [Bloodlust Brooch]. I started to wonder wether it was actually an upgrade due to the 1.5min cd which will not allow it to be used together with BW. What my question is: Is the higher average ap worth more than the effect of being able to time the brooch together with tbw. Or, more important, is this modelled in cheekys spreadsheet?

Last edited by Abbichum : Yesterday at 10:18 AM.
#3269SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
Originally Posted by Abbichum View Post
Being a jewelcrafter i was looking forward to make [Design: Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] since it has more average attack power than [Bloodlust Brooch]. I started to wonder wether it was actually an upgrade due to the 1.5min cd which will not allow it to be used together with BW. What my question is: Is the higher average ap worth more than the effect of being able to time the brooch together with tbw. Or, more important, is this modelled in cheekys spreadsheet?
No, it isn't. Only as a average 1,5% dmgincrease.

What my question is: Is the higher average ap worth more than the effect of being able to time the brooch together with tbw
10% more dmg with TBW -> 10% more effect out of ap -> equivalent to 10% more ap.

80 + 320*15/90 = 133,3 average ap
72 + (278*20/120) * 1.1 = 123 average ap

Even in the worst case (Figurine can't be used together with TBW once, which isn't the case) the figurine is better.

Last edited by Indora : Yesterday at 12:32 PM.
#3270SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kamaa
Indora,

Do you have a conclusion? What's your point? I don't even know what you're talking about.
#3271SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kwellthân
Does anyone know of a page where a hunter can see what their specific endgame item is for a specific slot?
Rogue consider Dragonspine trophy endgame pre-2.4, but what about us BM's what do we want?
#3272SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kamaa
Originally Posted by Kwellthân View Post
Does anyone know of a page where a hunter can see what their specific endgame item is for a specific slot?
Rogue consider Dragonspine trophy endgame pre-2.4, but what about us BM's what do we want?
http://elitistjerks.com/689693-post121.html
#3273SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
No, it isn't. Only as a average 1,5% dmgincrease.



10% more dmg with TBW -> 10% more effect out of ap -> equivalent to 10% more ap.

80 + 320*15/90 = 133,3 average ap
72 + (278*20/120) * 1.1 = 123 average ap

Even in the worst case (Figurine can't be used together with TBW once, which isn't the case) the figurine is better.
The pet's AP contribution from the trinket is multiplied during BW too. Not sure if that's enough to tip the scale on the 10 AP average difference though.
#3274SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
I'd like to see the best Hunter DPS but without being an enchanter.
#3275SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Osse
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
I'd like to see the best Hunter DPS but without being an enchanter.
Take 8 agility off?
#3276SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kamaa
Originally Posted by Bikiniwax View Post
I'd like to see the best Hunter DPS but without being an enchanter.
Originally Posted by Osse View Post
Take 8 agility off?
Thank you.
#3277SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
The pet's AP contribution from the trinket is multiplied during BW too. Not sure if that's enough to tip the scale on the 10 AP average difference though.
Maybe... Lets check it out.

Pet AP gain from Panther: 29.3
Pet AP gain from Brooch: 27*1.5 = 40.6

Overall:

Panther = 133.3 + 29.9 = 162.6
Brooch = 123 + 40.6 = 163.6

So in effect the Brooch is very marginally better. However, this calculation is slightly faulty. It assumes no interaction between the Panther and BW at all, and that isn't true. At the very least they will interact on the first BW, then on the third, then the fifth... etc etc.
#3278SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Esari
erhm

Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Drop the castsequence. I can't think of a single good reason to use castsequence these days.
/castrandom Steady Shot, !Auto Shot

or

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
Could someone tell what im doing wrong.. changed my main to hunter and started to raid when 2.4 arrived. Now i have been calculating and playing with Cheeky's sheet. I have tested like billion+trillion macros. cheeky tells me that the best rotation for me is. 1:1.x with multi-shot. Currently getting best dps by far with macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I know i shouldnt be using the castsequence,but just cant outperform this macro with other ones(yet).. give me some pro macros that i could try.

thanks
#3279SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Reebz
Originally Posted by Esari View Post
Could someone tell what im doing wrong.. changed my main to hunter and started to raid when 2.4 arrived. Now i have been calculating and playing with Cheeky's sheet. I have tested like billion+trillion macros. cheeky tells me that the best rotation for me is. 1:1.x with multi-shot. Currently getting best dps by far with macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I know i shouldnt be using the castsequence,but just cant outperform this macro with other ones(yet).. give me some pro macros that i could try.

thanks
Use the macro below and add in Lightning Breath below KC.

Never use multishot in a BM rotation.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castrandom !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
#3280SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kamaa
Originally Posted by Reebz View Post
Use the macro below and add in Lightning Breath below KC.

Never use multishot in a BM rotation.
Multi-shot is often better DPS than steady shot. Stop giving poor advice.
#3281SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Esari

Never use multishot in a BM rotation.

According the cheeky I get 70dps increase adding the multi-shot to my rotation, compared to 1:1 auto/steady
#3282SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Indora
Kamaa,

what I want to say is, that there are a few little mistakes in your algorithm (as mentioned on page 127).

Originally Posted by Indora View Post
Originally Posted by Kamaa
Whenever an auto shot clips, due to the way that the .5 sec cast of auto shot occurs during the last .5 seconds of the steady shot cast which clipped the auto shot, the auto shot and steady shot line up and cast simultaneously.
I think, there IS a delay of the auto shot, however, it's not 0.5 seconds.

Originally Posted by Kamaa
R = 1.5 + L
The GCD is controlled client-side and isn't delayed by lag anymore. Thus, 1.5 + 'reaction' time shoud be correct.
[...]
In addition (as mentioned in my other posts), adding a autoshot casttime also changes:

Originally Posted by Indora
[...]
the start point of your auto shot to
L[-----)     ]L[-----)     ]
           ^
           0
And increase the time where auto is delayed to
L[----------)          ]L[----------)          ]
  <------------->
#3283SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
Maybe... Lets check it out.

Pet AP gain from Panther: 29.3
Pet AP gain from Brooch: 27*1.5 = 40.6

Overall:

Panther = 133.3 + 29.9 = 162.6
Brooch = 123 + 40.6 = 163.6

So in effect the Brooch is very marginally better. However, this calculation is slightly faulty. It assumes no interaction between the Panther and BW at all, and that isn't true. At the very least they will interact on the first BW, then on the third, then the fifth... etc etc.
Heh... Quoting myself.

I made a little mistake in the timings of BW/Panther interaction. It is of course the first, then the fourth then the seventh BW the Panther can be combined with it.

But that is still better than the calculation I did before. Also, the Panther provides more personal effect which in turn is better as we gain more effect out of AP than our pets do (they gain the flat 14AP = 1 DPS, while we gain considerably more with our AP affected abilities).
#3284SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kaladian
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Multi-shot is often better DPS than steady shot. Stop giving poor advice.
1:1 ratio yes that is true but all the BM hunters in our guild go 3:2 and it better dps then MS in a 1:1 rotation. With 4-T6 and the BT trinket it all works very well together.
#3285SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
AP than our pets do (they gain the flat 14AP = 1 DPS, while we gain considerably more with our AP affected abilities).
Pets do much better than that through all the multipliers BM pets get (FI, Frenzy, Ferocity, Kill Command, Cobra Reflexes, and Serpent Swiftness). Try putting your pet in a group with Improved Battle Shout and buff with Blessing of Might. The DPS goes up significantly.
#3286SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Pets do much better than that through all the multipliers BM pets get (FI, Frenzy, Ferocity, Kill Command, Cobra Reflexes, and Serpent Swiftness). Try putting your pet in a group with Improved Battle Shout and buff with Blessing of Might. The DPS goes up significantly.
Ah yes... Though I can't imagine it it anywhere near our 'AP efficiency', and that was the main point.
#3287SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Teldra
How does latency effect the different macro commands? I've tried /castsequence, /cast, and /castrandom on Dr. Boom, and it seems like they're pretty close to being the same with /cast edging out the others at 200-250 latency. I've also tried:

/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot

which seems to do substantially more damage at the cost of really draining mana quickly. Of course I'd only use this on bosses to avoid breaking CC, and therefore multi might not do as well on a single target boss.


I'm also starting to have aggro issues and might need to switch to Salv I find I'm doing around 10-11% of raid dps on Lurker and Hydros (last night's kills). How can I get my tanks to generate more threat?
#3288SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ruind
Originally Posted by Teldra View Post

...Snip...

which seems to do substantially more damage at the cost of really draining mana quickly. Of course I'd only use this on bosses to avoid breaking CC, and therefore multi might not do as well on a single target boss.

...Snip...
Multi no longer breaks CC, you still see an arrow fly in its direction but it does no damage.
#3289SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Teldra
Originally Posted by Ruind View Post
Multi no longer breaks CC, you still see an arrow fly in its direction but it does no damage.
i was pretty sure I had seen that although they had implemented that in the 2.4 test realms, they left it out of the live patch. I haven't tested it in game though.
#3290SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Eliirion
Originally Posted by Ruind View Post
Multi no longer breaks CC, you still see an arrow fly in its direction but it does no damage.
Oh it definitely breaks CC.
#3291SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sympa
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Multi-shot is often better DPS than steady shot. Stop giving poor advice.
Still so very agressive kamaa. Stick to numbers.
#3292SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kamaa
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
Kamaa,

what I want to say is, that there are a few little mistakes in your algorithm (as mentioned on page 127).



In addition (as mentioned in my other posts), adding a autoshot casttime also changes:
Not my posts bud. It's an easy mistake, but the name is different. I've been posting on the boards for a while now. Not sure when the math guy showed up.

Originally Posted by Kaladian View Post
1:1 ratio yes that is true but all the BM hunters in our guild go 3:2 and it better dps then MS in a 1:1 rotation. With 4-T6 and the BT trinket it all works very well together.
Yeah, but that's not what Reebz said. Reebz said never use it. That is poor advice, especially to any up and coming hunter just moving into 25 man raids.

Even in a 3:2 rotation with 4 pc T6 your hunters will be switching to a 1:1 rotation while hasted, and using Multi-Shot at this time will provide higher DPS. Also, the [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] falls short in comparison to [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Berserker's Call] or [Madness of the Betrayer]

Last edited by Kamaa : 04/02/08 at 3:17 PM.
#3293SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Exbox
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Not my posts bud. It's an easy mistake, but the name is different. I've been posting on the boards for a while now. Not sure when the math guy showed up.



Yeah, but that's not what Reebz said. Reebz said never use it. That is poor advice, especially to any up and coming hunter just moving into 25 man raids.

Even in a 3:2 rotation with 4 pc T6 your hunters will be switching to a 1:1 rotation while hasted, and using Multi-Shot at this time will provide higher DPS. Also, the [Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] falls short in comparison to [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Berserker's Call] or [Madness of the Betrayer]
Be that as it may, it would be better to note that with QS up it is beneficial to put a multi in for a steady in the 1:1 rotation, yet with a DST or RF haste up (and i daresay heroism) it is better to stick with straight Steady:Auto in that multi adds a very heavy cast time.




Also, currently I'm having trouble attaining a steady high mark in dps, some nights I do it and some nights I don't. I'm going to make a trip to DR boom tonight, but I'd like some input on the macro's I'm using.

For my 3:2, of course I'm using something to the jist of
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot(Rank 1)
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill command

(I'm currently using a Ravager althought it is time I pull my WS back out)

But I'm looking for input on what I should do for my 1:1 hasted rotation.
Should I keep going with the 3:2, or should I go with my /castsequence 1:1 macro for QS (and more versions of haste)
#3294SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cheeky
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
Ah yes... Though I can't imagine it it anywhere near our 'AP efficiency', and that was the main point.
I think they are in the 50-67% range of our ability to turn AP into DPS. That's not insignificant. Not sure how much it matters to your original point (which I've forgotten) but I thought I'd throw that out there.
#3295SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kamaa
Originally Posted by Exbox View Post
For my 3:2, of course I'm using something to the jist of
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot(Rank 1)
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill command

(I'm currently using a Ravager althought it is time I pull my WS back out)

But I'm looking for input on what I should do for my 1:1 hasted rotation.
Should I keep going with the 3:2, or should I go with my /castsequence 1:1 macro for QS (and more versions of haste)
In theory the 3:2 macro should automatically switch to a 1:1 macro when you reach the point that 1:1 is more beneficial.
#3296SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kiya
Hey guys,

Sorry to butt in like this, but I've been reading this forum a lot lately and I've grown very fond of it
Plus, i like playing with numbers and i've been topping the dps meters since i started reading here, so I wanted to become a bit more then a "forum peeper".

Now, there is also another reason i decided to write here. Tonight I got 4 new pieces of gear, that makes 5 new pieces of gear in 2 weeks. I like keeping gear and switching it around for various needs, checking out dps changes and so on. But i never used haste rating before. And this is a lot of gear changed in a short period of time, with haste i don't know much about.
The World of Warcraft Armory (don't mind the pants, will gem them tomorrow, but i hope to figure out what gems i should use based on your replies - had t5 pants before)

So, problem 1: i changed the Girdle of the Prowler with the one in the profile, the t5 gloves with these, the Boots of the Crimson Hawk with these. And my dps went down. I use 3:2 shot rotation, i guess haste is clipping my shots? How much haste can i have till they get clipped, since i also have DST?

Problem 2: I seem to have more ap then other BM hunters, how much is the "cap" after which i benefit way more from crit? I was going for some 2000ap, but now i'm not sure. Too bad i enchanted the halberd already with Savagery, to reenchant it would hurt my pockets. But i'll do it, i will also regem what's needed.

Thanks in advance
#3297SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Exbox
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
In theory the 3:2 macro should automatically switch to a 1:1 macro when you reach the point that 1:1 is more beneficial.
Ah. well i'll be checking. I've noticed that sometimes using this macro when im hasted with just QS i'm at 1.85 weapon speed (chyea, I'm aware this needs some very in depth tweaking) and sometimes due to server side lag i go 2:1 or 3:2 still.
#3298SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Reebz
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Multi-shot is often better DPS than steady shot. Stop giving poor advice.
As has been mentioned, it's only decent in a 1:1 rotation.

Considering how many people have made the switch to a 3.00 weapon and the use of a 3:2, the whole "but you'll be hastned" argument is largely invalid unless you're specifically stacking haste gear. If you're incredibly lucky you may be hastened for a total of 1 minute in an 8 minute fight through procs.

Not to mention, that unless you've got a Shadow Priest, good luck with that, considering multi-shot as roughly 3 times the mana cost of a Steady Shot.

Don't ever forget that it is Damage Per Second. We're not Dr.Boom testing for 30 seconds here.

There's usually a lot of seconds in a 7-10 minute encounter and, over time, I would wager 3 steady shots are more damage than a multi-shot.
#3299SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kamaa
Originally Posted by Reebz View Post
As has been mentioned, it's only decent in a 1:1 rotation.

Considering how many people have made the switch to a 3.00 weapon and the use of a 3:2, the whole "but you'll be hastned" argument is largely invalid unless you're specifically stacking haste gear. If you're incredibly lucky you may be hastened for a total of 1 minute in an 8 minute fight through procs.

Not to mention, that unless you've got a Shadow Priest, good luck with that, considering multi-shot as roughly 3 times the mana cost of a Steady Shot.

Don't ever forget that it is Damage Per Second. We're not Dr.Boom testing for 30 seconds here.

There's usually a lot of seconds in a 7-10 minute encounter and, over time, I would wager 3 steady shots are more damage than a multi-shot.
WWS Loading...

With a 3:29 second fight I was hasted through procs alone through 122 seconds of the fight. That's not counting the two drums of battle and the bloodlust. If I understand WWS correctly this isn't even counting the times that QS might have procced while it was still up, but only the times that I was without the buff and actually gained it. There could have been more procs.

That said, I only fire multi's when QS is my solitary haste proc. There is a minimum of 72 seconds of QS here. There is of course overlap on some of the other haste buffs, but there will often be times when that 12+ second buff is up w/o other haste affects. During this time it is better DPS to sub multi's.

"but you'll be hastned" is exactly right. All buffs/procs considered there was a total of 227 seconds of hasted time in that 209 second fight. The drums are repeatable every 2 minutes and the rapid fire every 3 minutes. This isn't to say you'll be hasted for 100% of longer fights, but you will definitely be hasted a lot, and depending on the fight you'll be under haste more oft than not.
#3300SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Reebz
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
WWS Loading...

With a 3:29 second fight I was hasted through procs alone through 122 seconds of the fight. That's not counting the two drums of battle and the bloodlust. If I understand WWS correctly this isn't even counting the times that QS might have procced while it was still up, but only the times that I was without the buff and actually gained it. There could have been more procs.

That said, I only fire multi's when QS is my solitary haste proc. There is a minimum of 72 seconds of QS here. There is of course overlap on some of the other haste buffs, but there will often be times when that 12+ second buff is up w/o other haste affects. During this time it is better DPS to sub multi's.

"but you'll be hastned" is exactly right. All buffs/procs considered there was a total of 227 seconds of hasted time in that 209 second fight. The drums are repeatable every 2 minutes and the rapid fire every 3 minutes. This isn't to say you'll be hasted for 100% of longer fights, but you will definitely be hasted a lot, and depending on the fight you'll be under haste more oft than not.
And mana issues? You seem to have skipped right over that point.

Anyway, moving on and using your WWS as an example:

Bloodboil
Gorefeind
Sharhaz

Across all three encounters you used multishot between 7 to 9 times.

So, again, I shall restate: Never use multishot in a rotation.

Steady:Auto, now thats a rotation.

You use multishot intermittantly or only when a certain ability is procced. That is not a rotation!

Please, in future, properly read posts before launching an aggressive attack.
I clearly stated "rotation", I did not say "never use multishot".

Refer back to the original post I was replying to, the OP clearly had multishot embedded in his cast macro.
#3301SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rakki
I am trying to help a friend of mine, who plays BM hunter and who is rather new to this game, to improve.

I noticed that he didn't pick Rapid Killing talent despite the fact that it is always present in the talent build of all high-end BM hunters I have seen so far.

So, I am wondering how valuable Rapid Killing is to BM hunter. Do you all just take it because there is no better talent, or is it really superb?

Afaik, BM hunter already has very short delay between autoshots (about 2s, perhaps), and using Rapid Fire will make it almost impossible to weave in Steady Shot. Just for your info, we always play with 400-500ms latency on a good day. So what skills should he use when Rapid Fire is active?

And, lastly, how necessary is Efficiency talent to a BM hunter? The obvious answer is probably: it depends on gears. However, I am looking for more detailed explanation if possible.

Thanks in advance.
#3302SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
I think they are in the 50-67% range of our ability to turn AP into DPS. That's not insignificant. Not sure how much it matters to your original point (which I've forgotten) but I thought I'd throw that out there.
Far from insignificant... That would be around 5-6 AP per DPS or so?
My point was that the Shadowsong Panther trinket provides a heavier personal DPS bonus, while teh Bloodlust Brooch provides a heavier pet DPS bonus due to BW. But given your numbers, the advantage of the pet for the Brooch is only around half to two thirds the value of a similar bonus to the hunter.

In short, the Shadowsong Panther is best in any battle that takes more than 2 minutes. And even before that it hardly worse.
#3303SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Reebz
Originally Posted by Rakki View Post
I am trying to help a friend of mine, who plays BM hunter and who is rather new to this game, to improve.

I noticed that he didn't pick Rapid Killing talent despite the fact that it is always present in the talent build of all high-end BM hunters I have seen so far.

So, I am wondering how valuable Rapid Killing is to BM hunter. Do you all just take it because there is no better talent, or is it really superb?

Afaik, BM hunter already has very short delay between autoshots (about 2s, perhaps), and using Rapid Fire will make it almost impossible to weave in Steady Shot. Just for your info, we always play with 400-500ms latency on a good day. So what skills should he use when Rapid Fire is active?

And, lastly, how necessary is Efficiency talent to a BM hunter? The obvious answer is probably: it depends on gears. However, I am looking for more detailed explanation if possible.

Thanks in advance.
Rapid Killing is all about the reduced Rapid Fire cooldown, it's good.

If your friend is having difficulty weaving shots, especially with a +300ms ping, advise him to use a rotation macro. A quick search and you'll surely find one, if not here there are plenty of websites offering various types.

Efficiency is critical to any raiding hunter, it allows us to maximise our preferred stats of agility/crit/AP (amongst others) and have less of a concern about our mana pool. You can view Efficiency as +10% to your mana pool. The only time you might spec out of Efficiency is if you are always grouped with a Spriest or Shaman, are required to spec into Imp Hunters Mark or if you are Survival and have Thrill of the Hunt.
#3304SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
esco
so, my question is this. What weapon/weapons are the best for a bm hunter? I am currently using the vengeful waraxe. on the spreadsheet it gives me the best dps, but im trying to see if it would be worth it to get 2 1hds so i can put 2 oils on during raids. Any suggestion or recommendations?

Last edited by esco : 04/03/08 at 3:47 AM.
#3305SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1valkrin-Eitrigg
Last night I received several items from hyjal and BT and was wanting to ask a few questions regarding them. I figured since it dropped and no one else needed it I would pick it up,[Choker of Serrated Blades], I was using the worgen claw neck peice and with that I have 122 hit. Ive punched them both into the spread sheet and was wondering if the spread sheet takes into account Armor Ignore(I may have missed whether it does or not in the spreadsheets forum). If I were to use hit food and wear the choker would it be an upgrade? I have 497 armor ignore currently and I'm not quite sure how well that increases my dps, Ive looked over different posts and havent really found anything much on armor ignore other than its great but don't go out of your way for it.

One more question I have is about a pair of shoulders I received. [Beast-tamer's Shoulders]. I got that last night and [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] the night before. Should I just switch out the beast tamer's for BM friendly fights, or just forget about them and stick with the predator? I lose over 1% crit placing me at 27.34%. Any help is appreciated, thank you.
#3306SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1nedm
Originally Posted by esco View Post
im trying to see if it would be worth it to get 2 1hds so i can put 2 oils on during raids. Any suggestion or recommendations?
What i do to get around that problem is bind two 1h weapons with 30 int enchants on each to my AoV button. This way i can mana oil everything, and when i get to around 1/3rd mana or so, i switch and let it go up to around 2/3rd. This usually puts me just in range of my pot to put me back up to full.

And obviously i have my vengeful axe bound to the AoH button in the same way.
#3307SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Indora
Originally Posted by Kamaa
Not my posts bud. It's an easy mistake, but the name is different. I've been posting on the boards for a while now. Not sure when the math guy showed up.
Oh.
I even noticed the double 'm' instead of double 'a' but thougth it was a mistake of mine.

Anyway...
It looks like no one is interested in this algorithm here.
I think it would be a nice addition for your spreadsheet, Cheeky. This algorithm could make your 2:3 button much more accurate!
(Although there will be a lot of question why the first 20 hasterating don't give any dps, but the 21. do. )
#3308SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1bulldazhor
Please for any help or suggestion on équipement please use the dedicated post instead of this one
[Hunter]Help me please

Thanks
#3309SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1ash.it
@Kamaa

Steady Shot Rank 1 110 Mana
Multi-Shot Rank 6 275 Mana

Bringing the average damage from your WWS

Steady avg 952 -> 8,654 damage per mana
Multi avg 1101 -> 4,0036 damage per mana

As others have already pointed out .. it's a matter of efficiency and depends by situations. A 3 minute fight doesnt sound to me to be a great example as you may bear your mind most on longer encounters imho.
Reading posted informations I may say that Steady Shot is double efficient than multi for a Beast Master on a single target encounter. Period.

/cheers

Ash
#3310SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jerem
Originally Posted by ash.it View Post
@Kamaa

Steady Shot Rank 1 110 Mana
Multi-Shot Rank 6 275 Mana

Bringing the average damage from your WWS

Steady avg 952 -> 8,654 damage per mana
Multi avg 1101 -> 4,0036 damage per mana

As others have already pointed out .. it's a matter of efficiency and depends by situations. A 3 minute fight doesnt sound to me to be a great example as you may bear your mind most on longer encounters imho.
Reading posted informations I may say that Steady Shot is double efficient than multi for a Beast Master on a single target encounter. Period.

/cheers

Ash
That depends on how you define "efficient".
SS is more MANA efficient than Multi.

When you don't consider mana an issue at all (and ... something blue and red tells me that it is Kamaa's case ...), Multishot is just more DAMAGE efficient than SS.
#3311SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Relwin
Originally Posted by Reebz View Post
You can view Efficiency as +10% to your mana pool.
It's also +10% to any mana gains you have as well. All around, it's a clutch talent that gives a 10% boost in longevity, which is much better than a bigger mana pool. Although, if you have a paladin that can consistently keep up JoW, you should never be mana starved.
#3312SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ravenoak
give me some pro macros that i could try.

Originally Posted by Esari View Post
Could someone tell what im doing wrong.. changed my main to hunter and started to raid when 2.4 arrived. Now i have been calculating and playing with Cheeky's sheet. I have tested like billion+trillion macros. cheeky tells me that the best rotation for me is. 1:1.x with multi-shot. Currently getting best dps by far with macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I know i shouldnt be using the castsequence,but just cant outperform this macro with other ones(yet).. give me some pro macros that i could try.

thanks

Someone on this site awhile back said something about Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros, So I went to to check it out. I love it! Not sure how many other have tried this out...but here is the macro

MACRO 1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

MACRO 2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot


Take the button for MACRO 1, place it somewhere you can mash it endlessly.

Take the button for MACRO 2, and place it on the last button space (right hand side) of Action Bar 6. If you have your action bars expanded out, collapse them, go to the 6th tab of buttons, and place it in the last spot. If you have an addon or mod that changes your buttons, turn it off, place the macro in the proper place and then reload your addon.

Macro 1 is spammed, with a 2.9 weapon as a BM hunter (Sunfury, Steam Pistol, etc.) with as close to 2.0 attack speed as possible. Macro 1 will automatically trigger Macro 2 when Kill Command is available, and will also guarantee no clipped Auto Shots or macro hangs when the Kill Command goes off.

here is teh link again Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros
#3313SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
alienangel
Regarding all the bickering about multishot, I'm curious what the theory behind claims like "multi is only better than steady when you're not in an unhasted 3:2 phase" is.

As I understand it, replacing one of the steady shots in a 3:2 with a multishot does not incur any greater cooldown, and does not clip autoshots any worse than the steadyshot would have anyway. Obviously it sends mana consumption through the roof, but with a shadow priest that just means I need to use some super mana pots too, and don't end every fight at 85% mana.

Every time I've tried this, my DPS has been higher than weeks I didn't try it. However if I try to set a custom rotation in the spreadsheet with the the 2nd steady replaced with a multi every 10-12s, it doesn't predict much of a DPS gain, so either I am imagining the difference, or am not doing what I think I am (and hence setting up the custom rotation in the spreadsheet wrong).

Usually I just do it with a normal 3:2 /cast macro, but with the steadyshot line replaced with a "/castrandom Steady Shot, Multi-Shot". A couple of times I did it manually, with similar results. I've been meaning to take a set of logs and find out what sequence this actually generates, but haven't had the time recently :S

Last edited by alienangel : 04/03/08 at 2:38 PM. Reason: this sentence no verb
#3314SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Esau
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
Someone on this site awhile back said something about Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros, So I went to to check it out. I love it! Not sure how many other have tried this out...but here is the macro

MACRO 1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

MACRO 2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot


Take the button for MACRO 1, place it somewhere you can mash it endlessly.

Take the button for MACRO 2, and place it on the last button space (right hand side) of Action Bar 6. If you have your action bars expanded out, collapse them, go to the 6th tab of buttons, and place it in the last spot. If you have an addon or mod that changes your buttons, turn it off, place the macro in the proper place and then reload your addon.

Macro 1 is spammed, with a 2.9 weapon as a BM hunter (Sunfury, Steam Pistol, etc.) with as close to 2.0 attack speed as possible. Macro 1 will automatically trigger Macro 2 when Kill Command is available, and will also guarantee no clipped Auto Shots or macro hangs when the Kill Command goes off.

here is teh link again Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros
That is A M A Z I N G!
#3315SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1yarikh
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
Someone on this site awhile back said something about Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros, So I went to to check it out. I love it! Not sure how many other have tried this out...but here is the macro

MACRO 1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

MACRO 2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot


Take the button for MACRO 1, place it somewhere you can mash it endlessly.

Take the button for MACRO 2, and place it on the last button space (right hand side) of Action Bar 6. If you have your action bars expanded out, collapse them, go to the 6th tab of buttons, and place it in the last spot. If you have an addon or mod that changes your buttons, turn it off, place the macro in the proper place and then reload your addon.

Macro 1 is spammed, with a 2.9 weapon as a BM hunter (Sunfury, Steam Pistol, etc.) with as close to 2.0 attack speed as possible. Macro 1 will automatically trigger Macro 2 when Kill Command is available, and will also guarantee no clipped Auto Shots or macro hangs when the Kill Command goes off.

here is teh link again Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros
This works great! At least on normal mob testing, i'll have to further check it out in BT tonight. Thanks, also bookmarking bigredkitty forums.
#3316SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Faerdael
Originally Posted by yarikh View Post
This works great! At least on normal mob testing, i'll have to further check it out in BT tonight. Thanks, also bookmarking bigredkitty forums.
This has worked alot better for me also. I am not seeing the steady,steady,steady chains I was before. I do have a question about this second macro, that I am hoping someone else can answer. The /castsequence macro will trigger kill command even when I have to call my pet back. Is is possible to add a target=pettarget function to the kill command in /castsequence, and without causing any issues with the subsequent !auto shot commands?

Last edited by Faerdael : 04/03/08 at 4:40 PM. Reason: grammar
#3317SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1grymwish
Originally Posted by Kiya View Post
Hey guys,

Sorry to butt in like this, but I've been reading this forum a lot lately and I've grown very fond of it
Plus, i like playing with numbers and i've been topping the dps meters since i started reading here, so I wanted to become a bit more then a "forum peeper".

Now, there is also another reason i decided to write here. Tonight I got 4 new pieces of gear, that makes 5 new pieces of gear in 2 weeks. I like keeping gear and switching it around for various needs, checking out dps changes and so on. But i never used haste rating before. And this is a lot of gear changed in a short period of time, with haste i don't know much about.
The World of Warcraft Armory (don't mind the pants, will gem them tomorrow, but i hope to figure out what gems i should use based on your replies - had t5 pants before)

So, problem 1: i changed the Girdle of the Prowler with the one in the profile, the t5 gloves with these, the Boots of the Crimson Hawk with these. And my dps went down. I use 3:2 shot rotation, i guess haste is clipping my shots? How much haste can i have till they get clipped, since i also have DST?

Problem 2: I seem to have more ap then other BM hunters, how much is the "cap" after which i benefit way more from crit? I was going for some 2000ap, but now i'm not sure. Too bad i enchanted the halberd already with Savagery, to reenchant it would hurt my pockets. But i'll do it, i will also regem what's needed.

Thanks in advance
First of all speaking for many hunters here, we all hate you for your trinkets (j/k). Thats sick having both of those trinkets.

Ok back to your question, honestly I would put delicate gems x 3 in the pants. That will buff AP and crit together. At the level you're at now with gear, start leaning towards crit gear over AP gear, but of course dont go overboard.

When it comes to haste gear, thats much harder to evaluate. I'd check Cheeky's sheet to compare different gear for ap/crit vs haste. I lean towards AP/crit gear over haste because high dps from haste only works with that particular weapon's shot speed. If you get a new weapon with a different speed, all of the haste gear you spent dkp on to get your previous weapon to 'ideal shot speed' can sometimes drop your dps by alot. AP/Crit gear is more consistant to increase your dps no matter what your shot speed is, especially with as fast as you're getting geared.
#3318SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dreamflow
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
Someone on this site awhile back said something about Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros, So I went to to check it out. I love it! Not sure how many other have tried this out...but here is the macro

MACRO 1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

MACRO 2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot


Take the button for MACRO 1, place it somewhere you can mash it endlessly.

Take the button for MACRO 2, and place it on the last button space (right hand side) of Action Bar 6. If you have your action bars expanded out, collapse them, go to the 6th tab of buttons, and place it in the last spot. If you have an addon or mod that changes your buttons, turn it off, place the macro in the proper place and then reload your addon.

Macro 1 is spammed, with a 2.9 weapon as a BM hunter (Sunfury, Steam Pistol, etc.) with as close to 2.0 attack speed as possible. Macro 1 will automatically trigger Macro 2 when Kill Command is available, and will also guarantee no clipped Auto Shots or macro hangs when the Kill Command goes off.

here is teh link again Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros

I'm wondering, what about this macro with a 3.0 Speed Weapon?
#3319SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1lairpie
Originally Posted by nedm View Post
What i do to get around that problem is bind two 1h weapons with 30 int enchants on each to my AoV button. This way i can mana oil everything, and when i get to around 1/3rd mana or so, i switch and let it go up to around 2/3rd. This usually puts me just in range of my pot to put me back up to full.

And obviously i have my vengeful axe bound to the AoH button in the same way.
Yeah, I do that, but I start with the int loaded weapons on first till I burn through the mana from the enchants then swap to my s3 axe to use till i get low. Also, a bit less ap and crit for the first little part of the fight is never an all bad thing.
#3320SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kamaa
Originally Posted by Reebz View Post
And mana issues? You seem to have skipped right over that point.

Anyway, moving on and using your WWS as an example:

Bloodboil
Gorefeind
Sharhaz

Across all three encounters you used multishot between 7 to 9 times.

So, again, I shall restate: Never use multishot in a rotation.

Steady:Auto, now thats a rotation.

You use multishot intermittantly or only when a certain ability is procced. That is not a rotation!

Please, in future, properly read posts before launching an aggressive attack.
I clearly stated "rotation", I did not say "never use multishot".

Refer back to the original post I was replying to, the OP clearly had multishot embedded in his cast macro.
Calm down Reebz. Mana issues are addressed in EVERY single post I make. It's in big red and blue letters. You are acting as if I said I used multi-shot in a rotation. I no longer do. I never said I do. My reason for it is not mana consumption, but that it would require either manual weaving or a separate DPS macro on bosses and trash, and I don't need the extra DPS that can be squeezed out by doing so. It would however have more potential.

At a much lower gear level, ie anything prior to 4/5 T5, using Multi-Shot in a rotation will provide a noticeably larger DPS increase and should be used when feasible. The only debate I have with you is your use of the word never. It's simply inaccurate.

Last edited by Kamaa : 04/03/08 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Punctuation.
#3321SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1alienangel
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Regarding all the bickering about multishot, I'm curious what the theory behind claims like "multi is only better than steady when you're not in an unhasted 3:2 phase" is.

As I understand it, replacing one of the steady shots in a 3:2 with a multishot does not incur any greater cooldown, and does not clip autoshots any worse than the steadyshot would have anyway. Obviously it sends mana consumption through the roof, but with a shadow priest that just means I need to use some super mana pots too, and don't end every fight at 85% mana.

<snip>

Usually I just do it with a normal 3:2 /cast macro, but with the steadyshot line replaced with a "/castrandom Steady Shot, Multi-Shot". A couple of times I did it manually, with similar results. I've been meaning to take a set of logs and find out what sequence this actually generates, but haven't had the time recently :S

Following up on this, managed to find an old log of a Teron kill using one of these "3:2 /w multishot priority" rotations. It's hard to see what's going on because of quick shots, DST, heroism and rapid fires, but here's a segment that seems mostly unhasted: Wow Web Stats

I see the expected 3:2 pattern occuring, with a steady shot being replaced by a multishot every 11-12 seconds. The surrounding autos don't appear to be getting clipped unusually badly (if anything, there's less clipping than from double steadys). DPS for the fight seems acceptable given what a slow kill it was (2.1k for a 4:16 min kill, no group buffs other than heroism, tranquil air and VT).

So I went and tried to set up my manual rotation in the spreadsheet again, and this time it did predict a DPS boost, so all is well - ~20 dps gained, which makes sense for a 10s CD shot that does about 200 damage more than the steady shots it's replacing. The logs seems to confirm that the /cast macro still adjusts well to haste, turning 1:1 steady:auto into 1:1 priority multi/steady:auto.

The total number of multishots fired is somewhat low for the fight duration though, although I don't remember what exactly I was doing that night.

So to summarize: Multi-shot on cooldown appears to be a DPS boost even for 3:2 rotations, so long as you're replacing a steady shot with a multi, not necessarily so if you're trying to add a multi-shot to the current set of attacks.
#3322SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1nedm
from my personal testing i agree that multi, at least with my current gear setup is absolutely worth using over a steady in the rotation. While horribly wasteful, mana wise, at this point in time there is no downside to have to pot as often as i do, aside from eating into my money. The way i figure, if i want to put up the max dps numbers i can manage, i'll need to use that pot cooldown. Ending every fight nearly OOM at least makes me feel like i was trying as hard as i could.
#3323SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kiya
Originally Posted by grymwish View Post
First of all speaking for many hunters here, we all hate you for your trinkets (j/k). Thats sick having both of those trinkets.

Ok back to your question, honestly I would put delicate gems x 3 in the pants. That will buff AP and crit together. At the level you're at now with gear, start leaning towards crit gear over AP gear, but of course dont go overboard.

When it comes to haste gear, thats much harder to evaluate. I'd check Cheeky's sheet to compare different gear for ap/crit vs haste. I lean towards AP/crit gear over haste because high dps from haste only works with that particular weapon's shot speed. If you get a new weapon with a different speed, all of the haste gear you spent dkp on to get your previous weapon to 'ideal shot speed' can sometimes drop your dps by alot. AP/Crit gear is more consistant to increase your dps no matter what your shot speed is, especially with as fast as you're getting geared.
Thank you, i actually worked and spent my dkp for those trinkets after doing some reading here, so this forum and the people here are to blame, really
Otherwise the rogues/druids/warriors would have got them for sure. In the mean time i reenchanted the 2H, gemmed the pants and i reached some very nice ap/crit figures for me. I'm lucky with loot because our 1 enh shammy is inactive, the other hunters are sometimes inactive or have drained their dkp. So i was the only dps mail wearer in raid when i got the 4 items (belt, boots, pants, 2h wep) and got them all for minimum dkp
And about gear, i always save it till i get an sure upgrade (of the same stats). If an item has more hit, stam, haste, whatever, i keep it and after getting a new wepon for example i switch them around to balance everything.

Manito answered my haste question in the link above (the kiya posting around there isn't me ):
"With a 2.8, you are on what I would consider the "borderline" speed - often times you will get a 3:2, but you are more likely, over longer periods, to see less than 3:2 ratio, and get closer to 1:1. You also run the risk, with such a tight rotation, of skipping auto shots. With a small amount of haste and 2.8, however, you can have a very tight and much more mana efficient 1:1"

I have 2 haste items with 2.9 speed, so I'll try a 1:1 version of the macro posted above:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget, exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

and

/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command

Does this look ok to you?

Last edited by Kiya : 04/04/08 at 5:14 AM.
#3324SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Reebz
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Calm down Reebz. Mana issues are addressed in EVERY single post I make. It's in big red and blue letters. You are acting as if I said I used multi-shot in a rotation. I no longer do. I never said I do. My reason for it is not mana consumption, but that it would require either manual weaving or a separate DPS macro on bosses and trash, and I don't need the extra DPS that can be squeezed out by doing so. It would however have more potential.

At a much lower gear level, ie anything prior to 4/5 T5, using Multi-Shot in a rotation will provide a noticeably larger DPS increase and should be used when feasible. The only debate I have with you is your use of the word never. It's simply inaccurate.
Agree to disagree then

I guess we're now just being picky about wording, as I maintain I said "never in a rotation", not just simply the word "never".

Let's move on!
#3325SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Devore
I tried to find a decent answer to something that's been doing my nut for the last few weeks.

I just started in Kara a few weeks back and I was getting on great. I never ran out of mana and I hardly used mana pots, now following 2.4 I am drinking like Keith Floyd! I drank 3 pots during Prince fight last night and I was still gasping for mana.

I am using Flask of Restoration and I am having to stay in Aspect of the Viper just to get any mana back at all. I even had a Resto Shaman in my group.

I am using the Standard 1:1 Steady Rotation macro and the only thing I am casting is pet heal (rarely) and keeping up Scorpid Sting to help out the healers.

Am I doing somethign wrong?? Is there now a bigger need to reduce my Att Pwr and Hit and go for more Int?
#3326SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jerem
The mana regen changed, that's a fact.
I however see hunters' mana regen not much of an individual issue, but more of a general raid synergy problem.

Get used to chain-pot, you will have to anyway (that was true before 2.4 as well).
Take Wisdom as a 3rd blessing.
Convince a Paladin to maintain JoW on the boss.
Use Super-mana or Fel-mana, depending on what's appropriate.
#3327SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Primalr
Originally Posted by Tongaro View Post
Ok done some searches and wasn't able to find an answer to this but my guild is working on Azgalor in MH and have decided to use the range max distance to out range the fire. I have read it has a 35 yd range and was wondering if I will be targetable by it since that is my range too.

If so how do other BM hunters that are doing this fight and use this strat handle it?
Option 1) Put points in hawkseye. This is actually quite useful in loads of other encounters too.
Option 2) Attack the infernals. (this is what we do with anyone who can't safely dps the boss)

Pet Option 1) Send it to attack the infernals, to keep FI up from a place where it is safe.
Pet Option 2) Deck it out in maximum fire resistance levels and you can keep it up with mend pet.

Edit: Seems I accidentally replied to a very old post, please ignore this message.

Last edited by Primalr : 04/04/08 at 9:25 AM.
#3328SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Pixen
Originally Posted by Jerem View Post
The mana regen changed, that's a fact.
I however see hunters' mana regen not much of an individual issue, but more of a general raid synergy problem.

Get used to chain-pot, you will have to anyway (that was true before 2.4 as well).
Take Wisdom as a 3rd blessing.
Convince a Paladin to maintain JoW on the boss.
Use Super-mana or Fel-mana, depending on what's appropriate.
2.4 changed the way regen from spirit/int was calculated. Hunters do not regenerate mana through spirit/int inside the 5 second rule, nor did they prior to 2.4. Thus, the combat mana regen of hunters (while shot rotating) is exactly the same as it was prior to 2.4, and any difference you notice in mana consumption while running your macros (in theory) is psychological.

Then you might say "hey, there's times where I'm resting to regen mana, like in between Hyjal waves. What then?" Due to the nature of the spirit/int change, your spirit regen is likely actually slightly higher than it was in 2.3 while raid buffed (AI, DS, MotW, food buff).

The regen change pretty much (according to the math) only affect unbuffed hunters while farming/grinding. There's a lot of hysteria about this flying around the official forum, but it appears to be mostly unfounded.
#3329SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
Option 1) Put points in hawkseye. This is actually quite useful in loads of other encounters too.
Option 2) Attack the infernals. (this is what we do with anyone who can't safely dps the boss)

Pet Option 1) Send it to attack the infernals, to keep FI up from a place where it is safe.
Pet Option 2) Deck it out in maximum fire resistance levels and you can keep it up with mend pet.

Edit: Seems I accidentally replied to a very old post, please ignore this message.
If you stay at 35 yards you will be fine. I have never been rained of fire upon if you stay at max range.

You can put your pet on Doomguards. With 2xT5, full FR resists and chain heals, I leave my pet on Azgalor usually the whole time. I rarely even have to use pet mend, if ever.
#3330SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Seven
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
Someone on this site awhile back said something about Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros, So I went to to check it out. I love it! Not sure how many other have tried this out...but here is the macro

MACRO 1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

MACRO 2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot


Take the button for MACRO 1, place it somewhere you can mash it endlessly.

Take the button for MACRO 2, and place it on the last button space (right hand side) of Action Bar 6. If you have your action bars expanded out, collapse them, go to the 6th tab of buttons, and place it in the last spot. If you have an addon or mod that changes your buttons, turn it off, place the macro in the proper place and then reload your addon.

Macro 1 is spammed, with a 2.9 weapon as a BM hunter (Sunfury, Steam Pistol, etc.) with as close to 2.0 attack speed as possible. Macro 1 will automatically trigger Macro 2 when Kill Command is available, and will also guarantee no clipped Auto Shots or macro hangs when the Kill Command goes off.

here is teh link again Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros
Great Macro, perfectly works for me. While I cutted out the sound switch and LB another Idea came to my mind:

Let's insert Arcane Shot in there!

As I'm allways whith a SP, mana is not an issue. Here is what I've come up with till now:

Macro1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot

/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/click MultiBarBottomLeftButton11
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Macro2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Macro3:

/castsequence reset=5 Arcane shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Macro3 is placed left of macro2 in actionbar 6.


I'm aware that it isn't perfect yet, it hangs now and then (could'nt figure out yet why), but I think some of you can fix that small problem.
#3331SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ebonleaf
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
Great Macro, perfectly works for me. While I cutted out the sound switch and LB another Idea came to my mind:

Let's insert Arcane Shot in there!

As I'm allways whith a SP, mana is not an issue. Here is what I've come up with till now:

Macro1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot

/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/click MultiBarBottomLeftButton11
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Macro2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Macro3:

/castsequence reset=5 Arcane shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Macro3 is placed left of macro2 in actionbar 6.


I'm aware that it isn't perfect yet, it hangs now and then (could'nt figure out yet why), but I think some of you can fix that small problem.
Did you try fliping the 2nd click to the bottom? In theory, after your first auto then Steady will fire next, then arcane followed by your auto thus restarting the process. Almost like a 1:1.5, but with a 3:2 as your main cycle.

I'm at work and i can't actively test, so please bear in mind this is just an idea

#showtooltip Steady Shot

/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/click MultiBarBottomLeftButton11
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Macro2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Macro3:

/castsequence reset=5 Arcane shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Macro3 is placed left of macro2 in actionbar 6.
#3332SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Pixen View Post
2.4 changed the way regen from spirit/int was calculated. Hunters do not regenerate mana through spirit/int inside the 5 second rule, nor did they prior to 2.4. Thus, the combat mana regen of hunters (while shot rotating) is exactly the same as it was prior to 2.4, and any difference you notice in mana consumption while running your macros (in theory) is psychological.

Then you might say "hey, there's times where I'm resting to regen mana, like in between Hyjal waves. What then?" Due to the nature of the spirit/int change, your spirit regen is likely actually slightly higher than it was in 2.3 while raid buffed (AI, DS, MotW, food buff).

The regen change pretty much (according to the math) only affect unbuffed hunters while farming/grinding. There's a lot of hysteria about this flying around the official forum, but it appears to be mostly unfounded.
I believed that until tonight... I even thought people who commented on this might be under the influence of what others speak of.

Something is definately not right. Until 2.4 I rarely had to use more than a single Fel Mana potion, never had to change to Viper. Since our guild didn't have have Ret pallies JoW was vitually non-existant, and I was often the raid gypsy, not having a home being thrown around. I did however use both Mana oil and mageblood elixir. With that in mind I went out and invested in some haste pots. Tonight I finally raided under what I would call normal conditions, limited synergy. One Druid being the sole synergy I had, and that is better than quite often, but I digress.
I couldn't keep my mana up. Well I could, but just barely. Slamming my first Fel Mana at around 5k mana, drums of restoration right after and keeping at it like that held me in. On Morogrim I was 'lucky' to be sent to the grave and thus had my pot up by the time I got back... For the first time I had to change to Viper without having fooled around with Arcane/Multishot. I didn't do anything different, save not using Arcane Shot to get me on my feet after FD, that quickly got changed to Auto/Steady. Even my DPS was down a notch due to me being more careful with my mana.

I don't know what it is, but it isn't the same anymore. All you guys who are so lucky to have Spriests and JoW all the time, be happy that you do. It seems more than ever that we need those helpers. I do at least, something I didn't before.
#3333SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Naq
I just have some questions for you guys.
Atm im using a 1:1 rotation with sunfury shit bow of phoenixes. Will in a couple of days get [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]
My question really is what is the ultimate rotation for that bow.
If u want to give any other comments on gear or anything feel free, advice is always appriciated
#3334SourcePosted on <=2.0.0abron
According to cheeky a 1:1 rota comes up on top with the new crossbow.

I will buy it too when it's available though i'm sitting in bt farm gear with illidan and archimondes bow. We're working on brutallus these days still missing some dps. I'm doing around 1850-1900ish dps when i go full out with no groupbuffs available because i'm used to sit in grp 5 with the other unloved. According to cheeky the new crossbow will be a gain of nearly 50dps when i switch from my courrent 3:2 bows to this doing a 1:1 instead. My question is: Will i gain more dps if i switch to the archibow whenever any kind of haste comes up like drums, heroism, rapidfire etc and switch back when unhasted? My haste rating from items is 111 - no trophy.

Thanks so far.
#3335SourcePosted on <=2.0.0QuiggyB
Originally Posted by Seven View Post
Great Macro, perfectly works for me. While I cutted out the sound switch and LB another Idea came to my mind:

Let's insert Arcane Shot in there!

As I'm allways whith a SP, mana is not an issue. Here is what I've come up with till now:

Macro1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot

/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/click MultiBarBottomLeftButton11
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Macro2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Macro3:

/castsequence reset=5 Arcane shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Macro3 is placed left of macro2 in actionbar 6.


I'm aware that it isn't perfect yet, it hangs now and then (could'nt figure out yet why), but I think some of you can fix that small problem.

Cant you just change the /cast Steady Shot line to /castrandom Arcane Shot, Steady Shot and get rid of the extra /click line?
#3336SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nisu
Originally Posted by QuiggyB View Post
Cant you just change the /cast Steady Shot line to /castrandom Arcane Shot, Steady Shot and get rid of the extra /click line?
I think so, yes. The whole reason KC is off in its own macro is so that when it gets stuck, it'll get the additional macro stuck without affecting the main one.
#3337SourcePosted on <=2.0.0KraxisSingular
To stretch it even further wouldn't it then be possible to add Multishot with a castmodifier?
#3338SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kwellthân
Originally Posted by Nisu View Post
I think so, yes. The whole reason KC is off in its own macro is so that when it gets stuck, it'll get the additional macro stuck without affecting the main one.

So you could do with a:

/castrandom Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

instead of the:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I've been using so far Anyone who can see why these 2 macros shouldn't provide the same amount of dmg on a 1:1 and if so, which one is best?
#3339SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Schmotz
From what I have heard/seen about the upcoming 2.4 badge loot all eyes have been on the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] as the ultimate Beast Mastery bow. But what about the new badge axe comming out? The Blade of Harbingers - Items - WOWDB. How would you guys say this axe compares to the Halberd of Desolation or the Season 3 Waraxe in terms of overall dps?
#3340SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rasher
Originally Posted by Schmotz View Post
How would you guys say this axe compares to the Halberd of Desolation or the Season 3 Waraxe in terms of overall dps?
Felspine > Badges Axe > Halberd > Season 3
#3341SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Like everything else it depends on what you're wearing and how you're shooting. Use spreadsheet, check for yourself.

For me, Felspine > Halberd > Badges Axe
#3342SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nisu
Originally Posted by Kwellthân View Post
So you could do with a:

/castrandom Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

instead of the:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I've been using so far Anyone who can see why these 2 macros shouldn't provide the same amount of dmg on a 1:1 and if so, which one is best?
First, I'm not sure why you're quoting my post, seeing as how I'm talking about something different. Second, your first macro will be significantly worse because it has a /castrandom, which means that each time you mash it it picks Steady or Auto to fire randomly, so you could hit it a number of times without it ever casting steady.
#3351SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Praxx
Originally Posted by RTM View Post
From what I understand, the point of the double macro is to prevent Kill Command from locking out auto shot. If KC does lock up, it does so to the second macro which lets you still use auto shot from the main macro. If/when they fix that bug I would think that you could stop doing the double macro thing.
I gave the two macro system a try for a full Kara run and got more lock ups than I have in a long time. I have gone back to a single macro and am having no problems.
#3352SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1RTM
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
...snip...


Macro 1 is spammed, with a 2.9 weapon as a BM hunter (Sunfury, Steam Pistol, etc.) with as close to 2.0 attack speed as possible. Macro 1 will automatically trigger Macro 2 when Kill Command is available, and will also guarantee no clipped Auto Shots or macro hangs when the Kill Command goes off.
That's where I got the 'no KC hang' thing from. I don't have KC macro'd to Steady Shot so I can't provide first-hand experience one way or another.

So if that's the case, I guess I'd also be interested in knowing what the purpose of the double macros is.
#3353SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Naryn
The point of putting KC in a separate macro is to allow you to attack a different target than your pet. If you try to use

/castsequence [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command,!Auto Shot,!Auto Shot,!Auto Shot

in place of the /click command, if you are on a different target than your pet the macro will attempt to cast Auto Shots at your pet's target.
#3354SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
I wonder if the old 1:1 macros couldn't benefit from this little extra macro. At times ies does feel as if a KC does make my next Auto hang a little.

Imight have to try this out.
#3355SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hentrenson
The extra macro is just way to put Kill command into your rotation, without having KC bugging your shot rotation.
#3356SourcePosted on <=2.0.0EBO11
I have been reading these forums for a bit and final found the need to post. I have been using a 3:2 macro (the one from brk forums). I just go wsr from kara and my attack speed is 1.96. From reading the brk macro thread in brk I should be using a 1:1. On the spead sheet i down loaded a 1:1 is the best. To cut to the point what is the best 1:1 shot macro out there. I have looked around and can't seem to find the answer. I had used one in the past that i made, but it would do 1:1 at times and clip other times. Thank you in advance for your answers.
#3357SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jimmysnuka
Originally Posted by EBO11 View Post
I have been reading these forums for a bit and final found the need to post. I have been using a 3:2 macro (the one from brk forums). I just go wsr from kara and my attack speed is 1.96. From reading the brk macro thread in brk I should be using a 1:1. On the spead sheet i down loaded a 1:1 is the best. To cut to the point what is the best 1:1 shot macro out there. I have looked around and can't seem to find the answer. I had used one in the past that i made, but it would do 1:1 at times and clip other times. Thank you in advance for your answers.
I'm under the assumption (correct me if i'm wrong) that you shouldn't have to change the macro, it should just work it's way into a 1:1. If you take a slow weapon and use that macro, you get 3:2 rotaion, but when you add a haste proc, it turns into a 1:1 rotation. Thus if you lowered the weapon speed substantially it's more of less acting as a permanent haste proc and thus should work it's way into a 1:1 rotation for you. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding.
#3358SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Manito
Originally Posted by volant View Post
The Kill Command lockout bug prevents your character from casting autoshot, not a certain macro from using it. The game doesn't care what button you use to cast a spell, just that you're casting it.
Actually, when a specific spell "locks" and it is part of a macro, it will lock out that macro as well.

That's the entire reason I have the macros separated. If KC locks and it is mainlined in the primary shot macro, it will "lock" the Steady/Auto macro as well.

/wave to those who posted my macro here, I was surprised to see it :P


Last edited by Manito : Yesterday at 12:01 PM.
#3359SourcePosted on <=2.0.0KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Jimmysnuka View Post
I'm under the assumption (correct me if i'm wrong) that you shouldn't have to change the macro, it should just work it's way into a 1:1. If you take a slow weapon and use that macro, you get 3:2 rotaion, but when you add a haste proc, it turns into a 1:1 rotation. Thus if you lowered the weapon speed substantially it's more of less acting as a permanent haste proc and thus should work it's way into a 1:1 rotation for you. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding.
Well it is wrong unfortunately.
Yes, the 3:2 macro will turn into a 1:1 rotation if hasted enough. I'm not certain about when it does so, but it seems to be around 1.7 second per auto (2.7 weapon with Quick Shots will generate a 1:1 rotation).
However, a 2.7 speed weapon is still slow enough for there to be a fair bit of hangtime between GCD and actual Autoshot. In that time you will still load up a new Steady, despite it being less favourable. The clipping will be considerable.

Like 1:1 is highly dependant on speed, so too does the 3:2 macros seem to be, as the weapon need to be slow enough to not get clipped to death like a 2.7 weapon, but fast enough to not be forced into a 2:1 rotation.
#3360SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Sienna
Something I calculated tonight, which is interesting to find out finally:

I compared Bloodlust Brooch to having a 118 AP passive trinket. This is after all how we calculate the dps coming from Brooch.

But since Brooch is on a 2 minute cooldown, 99% of hunters time it with Wrath to get the most out of it. So I used Cheeky's spreadsheet to see the difference between having 118 AP passively, or having 350 AP for 20 seconds and 72 AP for 100 seconds, and manually calculated the BW effect.

The result was only a 151 passive AP trinket was enough to reach the dps of Brooch timed with Wrath every 2 minutes.

This calculation doesn't even take rapid fire or other /use items you can time with Brooch to maximize its dps.

So the 118 AP is quite deceiving while Brooch is worth around 151 AP.

Then I went ahead and calculated Berserker's Call. It's 150 AP passive when we average it. But look how much it actually is:

183 passive AP = Berserker's Call timed with BW.

This will put things into perspective when people compare Brooch to Ashtongue trinket, which puts Brooch way over Ashtongue since with even 50% uptime on Ashtongue, average AP is less than 150 and Ashtongue isn't even up 50% of the time.

Edit: I also did the same calculation for Madness of Betrayer. I took the PPM as 2 and checked it vs Bloodlust, suprise suprise, Bloodlust came up to be better as well, but I'm not making full use of hit from it atm, around 7 hit rating is wasted if I equip it.

Last edited by Sienna : Today at 6:24 AM.
#3361SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sienna
Btw I have a question about the new badge xbow. I use a mac so my Office can't use visual basic macros in Cheeky so I'm unable to change shot rotation to 3:2 to check. But at 1:1 rotation if I upgrade to badge xbow with S3 axe, I get around the same dps upgrade as if I upgrade to badge axe and keep using S3 bow. But since I usually use 3:2 now would I get any dps upgrade switching to badge xbow? Or is it better that I just buy the badge axe, which will obviously give a good dps boost at 3:2 rotation as well.
#3362SourcePosted on <=2.0.0ekaw
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
I gave the two macro system a try for a full Kara run and got more lock ups than I have in a long time. I have gone back to a single macro and am having no problems.
I had the same experience on Rage the other night with the dual macro locking up quite often whereas the standard 2:3 macro with KC has worked fine for a good while now.
#3363SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jimmysnuka
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
Well it is wrong unfortunately.
Yes, the 3:2 macro will turn into a 1:1 rotation if hasted enough. I'm not certain about when it does so, but it seems to be around 1.7 second per auto (2.7 weapon with Quick Shots will generate a 1:1 rotation).
However, a 2.7 speed weapon is still slow enough for there to be a fair bit of hangtime between GCD and actual Autoshot. In that time you will still load up a new Steady, despite it being less favourable. The clipping will be considerable.

Like 1:1 is highly dependant on speed, so too does the 3:2 macros seem to be, as the weapon need to be slow enough to not get clipped to death like a 2.7 weapon, but fast enough to not be forced into a 2:1 rotation.
Well, it has to be true at some point... lol.. Does anybody know for sure what speed the standard 3:2 macro turns into a 1:1 rotation? or is there a better 1:1 macro to be using these days for times when raid awareness needs to be at a high and quartz examination needs to give? (I hear plenty of talk about /castsequence being not so hot these days)
#3364SourcePosted on <=2.0.0KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Jimmysnuka View Post
Well, it has to be true at some point... lol.. Does anybody know for sure what speed the standard 3:2 macro turns into a 1:1 rotation? or is there a better 1:1 macro to be using these days for times when raid awareness needs to be at a high and quartz examination needs to give? (I hear plenty of talk about /castsequence being not so hot these days)
Actually the problem is that the /cast macro that is used to generate the 3:2 rotation acts differently for people with different ways of using it and latency of course. So for some it might be 1.7 that is the magic 1:1, for others it might be a lot faster.
For instance if you have slaved the macro to the mousewheel, the macro will be spammed a great deal, chances are then that a secondSteady might find it's way ahead of the Autoshot even if the speed is less than 1.7. And that is only one possible way it mgiht be different.
#3365SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jimmysnuka
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
Actually the problem is that the /cast macro that is used to generate the 3:2 rotation acts differently for people with different ways of using it and latency of course. So for some it might be 1.7 that is the magic 1:1, for others it might be a lot faster.
For instance if you have slaved the macro to the mousewheel, the macro will be spammed a great deal, chances are then that a secondSteady might find it's way ahead of the Autoshot even if the speed is less than 1.7. And that is only one possible way it mgiht be different.
Interesting... so more of the 'a bit different for each person - get your ass out and test it yourself' thing. Seems to be a common trend trying to find the best weapon/rotation/haste/setup/etc.
#3366SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
I'm working on the (improved) algorithm for determining your rotation while spamming a /cast macro just at this moment.
It looks like latency isn't relevant, but 'reaction'-time is. (Time between mashing your macro twice.)
#3367SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Daemous
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
Actually, when a specific spell "locks" and it is part of a macro, it will lock out that macro as well.

That's the entire reason I have the macros separated. If KC locks and it is mainlined in the primary shot macro, it will "lock" the Steady/Auto macro as well.

/wave to those who posted my macro here, I was surprised to see it :P

That's not entirely true. It depends on the macro and if it blocks because it attempts to do force a shot that is borked.

FWIW, I have a bug report summary (linking to all reported bugs) of this issue at Blizzard at WoW Forums -> [BUG] Hunter Auto-Shot Roundup/Summary
#3368SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rifeus
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Something I calculated tonight, which is interesting to find out finally:

I compared Bloodlust Brooch to having a 118 AP passive trinket. This is after all how we calculate the dps coming from Brooch.

But since Brooch is on a 2 minute cooldown, 99% of hunters time it with Wrath to get the most out of it. So I used Cheeky's spreadsheet to see the difference between having 118 AP passively, or having 350 AP for 20 seconds and 72 AP for 100 seconds, and manually calculated the BW effect.

The result was only a 151 passive AP trinket was enough to reach the dps of Brooch timed with Wrath every 2 minutes.

This calculation doesn't even take rapid fire or other /use items you can time with Brooch to maximize its dps.

So the 118 AP is quite deceiving while Brooch is worth around 151 AP.

Then I went ahead and calculated Berserker's Call. It's 150 AP passive when we average it. But look how much it actually is:

183 passive AP = Berserker's Call timed with BW.

This will put things into perspective when people compare Brooch to Ashtongue trinket, which puts Brooch way over Ashtongue since with even 50% uptime on Ashtongue, average AP is less than 150 and Ashtongue isn't even up 50% of the time.

Edit: I also did the same calculation for Madness of Betrayer. I took the PPM as 2 and checked it vs Bloodlust, suprise suprise, Bloodlust came up to be better as well, but I'm not making full use of hit from it atm, around 7 hit rating is wasted if I equip it.
If you take TBW into account for the Brooch and the Beserkers call trinket you need to do that for the Ashtongue trinket aswell, there is a chance (not a small one) that it'll be up doing TBW.

Same goes to madness of the betrayer.
#3369SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Manito
Originally Posted by Daemous View Post
That's not entirely true. It depends on the macro and if it blocks because it attempts to do force a shot that is borked.

FWIW, I have a bug report summary (linking to all reported bugs) of this issue at Blizzard at WoW Forums -> [BUG] Hunter Auto-Shot Roundup/Summary
Uh, actually, what I said is entirely true If an action - any action - locks up, and that action is referenced directly within a macro that also executes other commands, it will lock that macro from working until the locked action is properly triggered again, either on its own (as it is with my macro) or manually by using the specific locked action.

#3370SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Something I calculated tonight, which is interesting to find out finally:

I compared Bloodlust Brooch to having a 118 AP passive trinket. This is after all how we calculate the dps coming from Brooch.

But since Brooch is on a 2 minute cooldown, 99% of hunters time it with Wrath to get the most out of it. So I used Cheeky's spreadsheet to see the difference between having 118 AP passively, or having 350 AP for 20 seconds and 72 AP for 100 seconds, and manually calculated the BW effect.

The result was only a 151 passive AP trinket was enough to reach the dps of Brooch timed with Wrath every 2 minutes.

This calculation doesn't even take rapid fire or other /use items you can time with Brooch to maximize its dps.

So the 118 AP is quite deceiving while Brooch is worth around 151 AP.

Then I went ahead and calculated Berserker's Call. It's 150 AP passive when we average it. But look how much it actually is:

183 passive AP = Berserker's Call timed with BW.

This will put things into perspective when people compare Brooch to Ashtongue trinket, which puts Brooch way over Ashtongue since with even 50% uptime on Ashtongue, average AP is less than 150 and Ashtongue isn't even up 50% of the time.

Edit: I also did the same calculation for Madness of Betrayer. I took the PPM as 2 and checked it vs Bloodlust, suprise suprise, Bloodlust came up to be better as well, but I'm not making full use of hit from it atm, around 7 hit rating is wasted if I equip it.
To say what Rifeus said in another way, if the only thing a cooldown does is apply a % modifier to damage a fixed % of time, there's no reason for the relative gains from two items to be different during that cooldown - if Madness is better without BW, then it's better during BW as well.

The differences though are:

i. Bloodlust/Berserker's Call have an effect that buffs pet damage, and the pet is affected by that BW too. Madness/DST do not affect the pet, but Ashtongue does.

ii. The on-use trinkets always provide their maximum benefit, since you can always use them during BW. Although given how often the proc trinkets proc you could just wait a few seconds for a proc before using BW anyway.
#3371SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sienna
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
To say what Rifeus said in another way, if the only thing a cooldown does is apply a % modifier to damage a fixed % of time, there's no reason for the relative gains from two items to be different during that cooldown - if Madness is better without BW, then it's better during BW as well.

The differences though are:

i. Bloodlust/Berserker's Call have an effect that buffs pet damage, and the pet is affected by that BW too. Madness/DST do not affect the pet, but Ashtongue does.

ii. The on-use trinkets always provide their maximum benefit, since you can always use them during BW. Although given how often the proc trinkets proc you could just wait a few seconds for a proc before using BW anyway.
Let's assume you wait for the trinket to proc, the proc is 8 seconds on Ashtongue, BW is 18, hoping for another proc in that 18 is just pushing your luck. And then what is the cutoff for "ok let's not wait anymore and hit BW"? If you wait too long you are losing more dps than you'll have gained.

I just did this experiment to get a clear passive AP value for how much Call and Brooch worth. They are not 150 and 113, they are 183 and 151 during sustained dps. So when you compare them to a passive AP trinket from now on, these are the values you should think of.

About ashtongue, I'm pretty sure it's worse than Brooch since I did around 25 x 2 minute tests yesterday, uptime was close to 40% in average with 3:2 macro. Will be even less with 1:1. 275 AP on 40% uptime is 110 AP. Yes it can proc during BW but 110 AP is nowhere comparable to 151 AP coming from Brooch. That's one 26g wasted on Ashtongue.
#3372SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
About ashtongue, I'm pretty sure it's worse than Brooch since I did around 25 x 2 minute tests yesterday, uptime was close to 40% in average with 3:2 macro. Will be even less with 1:1. 275 AP on 40% uptime is 110 AP. Yes it can proc during BW but 110 AP is nowhere comparable to 151 AP coming from Brooch. That's one 26g wasted on Ashtongue.
It's not 110 AP compared to 151 though, that's comparing two different things (a trinket without BW factored in to a trinket with BW factored in). It's 110 compared to 118 AP. If you want to compare the effective AP while under BW, then you need to put that 110 AP average through the same BW modifier you put bloodlust's 118 AP average through to get 151.

On a more practical note though, if your ashtongue uptime is so low that in only gives you an 110 AP average, then it's a no brainer to use bloodlust over it, since bloodlust is a guaranteed 118.
#3373SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sienna
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
It's not 110 AP compared to 151 though, that's comparing two different things (a trinket without BW factored in to a trinket with BW factored in). It's 110 compared to 118 AP. If you want to compare the effective AP while under BW, then you need to put that 110 AP average through the same BW modifier you put bloodlust's 118 AP average through to get 151.

On a more practical note though, if your ashtongue uptime is so low that in only gives you an 110 AP average, then it's a no brainer to use bloodlust over it, since bloodlust is a guaranteed 118.
Yes what I meant was if Ashtongue is 110 on average, it's obviously worse than bloodlust since with bloodlust even without BW factored it's 118, should have written more clearly there.

And is it just me who has 40% uptime on ashtongue? What's other people's experience with that trinket so far? Granted I just got it yesterday and tested it for 3 hours in blasted lands with 3:2 macro, maybe a longer testing needed, don't know.

And I found it interesting that a 118 average trinket becomes equivalent to 151 average trinket if timed with BW. I assumed it'd be higher value, but not this high. And Cheeky's spreadsheet doesn't calculate the value of trinkets using that method. I think it's misleading. That was the main reason of my first post. I've seen in this thread that people order trinkets according to dps worth just using cheeky which is not the correct way to do it.
#3374SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Yes what I meant was if Ashtongue is 110 on average, it's obviously worse than bloodlust since with bloodlust even without BW factored it's 118, should have written more clearly there.

And is it just me who has 40% uptime on ashtongue? What's other people's experience with that trinket so far? Granted I just got it yesterday and tested it for 3 hours in blasted lands with 3:2 macro, maybe a longer testing needed, don't know.

And I found it interesting that a 118 average trinket becomes equivalent to 151 average trinket if timed with BW. I assumed it'd be higher value, but not this high. And Cheeky's spreadsheet doesn't calculate the value of trinkets using that method. I think it's misleading. That was the main reason of my first post. I've seen in this thread that people order trinkets according to dps worth just using cheeky which is not the correct way to do it.
I've honestly never tested my uptime, and took the spreadsheet's word for uptime on Ashtongue (and since it's not a PPM trinket, I'd imagine the spreadsheet model of uptime for it is pretty accurate). I'd imagine the spreadsheet estimates greater than 40% uptime, or it wouldn't think Ashtongue's average AP is better than bloodlust's.

How did you test uptime btw? If you made the easily made mistake of just counting the number of "You gain Deadly Aim" messages, multiply by buff duration, and divide by fight duration, you get an underestimate of uptime since that won't catch reprocs. Is there a 2.4 compatible mod or parser that actually tracks both gaining and losing a buff?

As for the spreadsheet not accounting for trinket use during BW, this has been brought up earlier, and cheeky explained how to do it for yourself if that's how you use the trinket: Hunter Spreadsheets -- In development
#3375SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sienna
I tested uptime by manually counting procs every time and counting how many times it refreshed itself, if it was 8 procs in 2 minutes and 4 of them were refreshes I took it like:

8*8=64-4*4=48

I just took refreshes to be 4 second losses to get some average.
#3376SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1alienangel
And you did that for 3 hours :o? Ouch.
#3377SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
And you did that for 3 hours :o? Ouch.
lol yeah, the joy of getting a new epic after quitting raiding for 8 months, so testing was inevitable Wasted 25 super mana pots, drums and many many arrows.
#3378SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ebonleaf
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
Actually the problem is that the /cast macro that is used to generate the 3:2 rotation acts differently for people with different ways of using it and latency of course. So for some it might be 1.7 that is the magic 1:1, for others it might be a lot faster.
For instance if you have slaved the macro to the mousewheel, the macro will be spammed a great deal, chances are then that a secondSteady might find it's way ahead of the Autoshot even if the speed is less than 1.7. And that is only one possible way it mgiht be different.
I recently got my [Dragonspine Trophy]. When either that or quickshots proc, it takes me down to about a 1.4-1.7 fire speed. I'm using [Tuskbreaker], until our badge vendor is up, and the [Hauberk of the War Bringer] at the moment. The normal 3:2 macro i use switches quite well to a 1:1. I lace that with a manual arcane or multi shot and it's good to go. My latency is usually hovering about 135-137.
#3379SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rutnut
Rapid Fire implementation

Alright, I've tried searching through the 100+ pages in this thread, and so far I haven't found anything satisfactory.

But, here are my two questions:

With that cookie cutter BM spec, rapid fire is on a 3 min cd, whereas BW + most trinkets (for me Bloodlust Brooch) are on a 2 min cd.


1 - Should I be trying to always use these cooldowns whenever they are available? or should I be delaying BW by a minute so that they coordinate with each other:

Case 1: Use all CD's when available

0 min: BW/BB & RF
2 min: BW/BB
3 min: RF
4 min: BW/BB
6 min: BW/BB & RF

Case 2: Delay BW

0 min: BW/BB & RF
3 min: BW/BB & RF
6 min: BW/BB & RF

Case 3 - I haven't thought this one too much through...but I guess you could delay just the BB trinket to coincide with RF more...

0 min: BW/BB & RF
2 min: BW
3 min: BB & RF
4 min: BW
6 min: BB & RF



2 - Since whenever rapidfire is activated, my shot speed is lower than the GCD timer, should I still be spamming my macro for maximum dps over this time? or is there a better shot rotation to be aiming for when my shot speed is lowered (i.e. tossing arcane or multi in....or something)

Thanks
#3380SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ebonleaf
Originally Posted by Rutnut View Post
Alright, I've tried searching through the 100+ pages in this thread, and so far I haven't found anything satisfactory.

But, here are my two questions:

With that cookie cutter BM spec, rapid fire is on a 3 min cd, whereas BW + most trinkets (for me Bloodlust Brooch) are on a 2 min cd.


1 - Should I be trying to always use these cooldowns whenever they are available? or should I be delaying BW by a minute so that they coordinate with each other:

Case 1: Use all CD's when available

0 min: BW/BB & RF
2 min: BW/BB
3 min: RF
4 min: BW/BB
6 min: BW/BB & RF

Case 2: Delay BW

0 min: BW/BB & RF
3 min: BW/BB & RF
6 min: BW/BB & RF

Case 3 - I haven't thought this one too much through...but I guess you could delay just the BB trinket to coincide with RF more...

0 min: BW/BB & RF
2 min: BW
3 min: BB & RF
4 min: BW
6 min: BB & RF



2 - Since whenever rapidfire is activated, my shot speed is lower than the GCD timer, should I still be spamming my macro for maximum dps over this time? or is there a better shot rotation to be aiming for when my shot speed is lowered (i.e. tossing arcane or multi in....or something)

Thanks
I've actually started using BW+BB, and then once those are done using RF. Either DST or IAoTH usually proc during BW+BB, so the haste is already there. And yes, what works for me, is spamming whenever haste is up on the 3:2 (1:1)
#3381SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Teldra
Originally Posted by Rutnut View Post
1 - Should I be trying to always use these cooldowns whenever they are available? or should I be delaying BW by a minute so that they coordinate with each other:


2 - Since whenever rapidfire is activated, my shot speed is lower than the GCD timer, should I still be spamming my macro for maximum dps over this time? or is there a better shot rotation to be aiming for when my shot speed is lowered (i.e. tossing arcane or multi in....or something)

Thanks
#1: I don't know about you, but I have to be dang careful when using my trinkets together with rapid fire. I've been easily exceeding my tank's TPS even with normal shot rotations. I usually use the BLB along with Bestial Wrath and Rapid fire together, but only *after* successfully feigning and only on the "bigger" trash mobs, like the giants in SSC.

#2: This one is highly variable depending on talents and gear. I'd like to find out for myself, but am not sure how.
#3382SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1spinaldex
I don't know if this is useful to anyone, but I wrote this to answer a few questions to our guild in regards to my recent climb in haste rating and my interests in seeing what would happen if I just kept stacking it. For reference we're In T5 content, working on Vashj, Rage down, and we do 2 weekly ZA clears .. so that should answer what kind of gear we have access to.

All tests were done without Tsunami Talisman, with Monkey on, 41/20, etc .. so not to affect the accuracy of the tests with random procs.

I want to apologize in advance if anything I say here is not accurate. I'm not as much of a statistician and genius as most are on this website, but I felt that the least I could do is try to understand what I'm seeing by writing the post on our own forums (sort of like a personal notebook), and thought .. "you know, maybe the folks at EJ could use some of this). So .. don't flame me!!!!



Paste:
-------------


The purpose of this demonstration is to show the differences between Hunter DPS Macros, the effects of gear on them, and the choices between weapon speeds. I did these tests after getting the Savage Choker Haste Neck from ZA tonight, and felt it was time yet again to check the results of DPS across the board. Last time I took these results and kept them to myself, but this time I will make them public to show more detail to any min/maxers interested in learning more about maximizing hunter potential.


All tests were performed on Dr. Boom, and were tested on a duration of mana pool of 100% (Haste set = 6300, Non-Haste = 6700).

The Damage done during the mana pool is important to gauge mana efficiency.

For example, the 3:2 Macro typically produces less damage than an optimal 1:1 Macro because it is less efficient, however it produces significantly more DPS. This is important as a different macro might be useful depending on your group and raid layout (ie, No Shadow Priests, No Wisdom, etc).



The tests were performed using the stats below. Both sets were at hit cap of 136 Hit Rating or higher. No reported missed shots on any tests.


Non_Haste
==========
1655 RAP
26.15% Crit
0 Haste Rating


Haste Set
=========
1700 RAP
24.28% Crit
143 Haste Rating


Notes:

Hunters RAP is at a ratio 14 RAP to 1 DPS. So, the actual difference in RAP between the sets is negligible as it would only give about a 3 more DPS. For the purposes of this test, that difference will be disregarded.


The Crit % difference between the sets is nearly 2% in favor of a non-haste set. This should give it an edge as 2% crit makes a marked improvement in similiar set builds.




Now, on to the show:





3:2 Macro
----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______80,716______ 616.5
[No Haste] BBLR ____________77,687______ 628.2
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______82,123______ 673.90
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________72,212______ 673.1




1:1 Macro
-----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______97,510______ 554.3
[No Haste] BBLR ____________84,524______ 555.1
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______78,242______ 602.5
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________77,670______ 560.8



1:1.5 Macro
----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______71,243______ 641.5
[No Haste] BBLR ____________68,536______ 586.3
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______57,362______ 582.5
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________53,859______ 568.4



As you can see from the tests above ... Haste provides significant return when combined with the right macro. The 3:2 Macro provides a nearly 90 DPS edge over all other combinations.

The 3:2 Macro utilizes significantly more mana, but the return is profound.

The 1:1.5 Macro, which utilizes Arcane Shot, is not very efficient as the usage of Arcane Shot cuts off the next AutoShot and prevents it from being fired at the right time. This lowers DPS by a good chunk.

The original 1:1 Macro used pre 2.3 has been completely negated due to Macro/UI changes that affected macro lag and latency impact on the parsers.


For this reason, it is recommended that in optimal conditions (raid buffs, mana oils, etc) that a Hunter focus on Haste Rating & additionally, utilize the 3:2 Macro.

It is interesting to note .. that the speed variations between the guns doesn't matter when stacking enough haste with the 3:2 Macro because it auto-adjusts (a nice feature of the 3:2 macro) to the speed you are firing at. However, in all the less-forgiving macros, which gun you use can make upwards of a 70DPS difference, and that doesn't reflect the "damage" on the gun. This gives credence to the tests done by T6 hunters that the WolfSlayer Sniper Rifle and Barrel-Blade Long Rifle (used for testing here) are actually better guns in T6 content than the Illidan Bow, because even though it has less DPS, the timing on the bow causes next to no clipping even under extreme hasted conditions.

One other addendum is that the use of the 1:1.5 Macro (using Arcane Shot) can reach in the mid 600s if using the right speed combination. This *might* be of use with the TK Trinket [Talon of Al'ar] because even though the additional 40 damage does not proc on Autoshot, it will add to the base damage of the next Steady Shot. This is reported to only add about 15 DPS over time, but that would bring this rotations in to respectable ranges if it could be maintained with the right combination of gear. This warrants additional analysis. A down side to this setup is the high amount of mana it requires as Arcane Shot is another 207 mana per 10 second rotation that you do not have with other shot rotations.







3:2 Macro
----------------------

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()







1:1 Macro
-----------------------

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=1.93 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()





1:1.5 Macro

------------------------

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=1.93 !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#3383SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ebonleaf
Originally Posted by spinaldex View Post
I don't know if this is useful to anyone, but I wrote this to answer a few questions to our guild in regards to my recent climb in haste rating and my interests in seeing what would happen if I just kept stacking it. For reference we're In T5 content, working on Vashj, Rage down, and we do 2 weekly ZA clears .. so that should answer what kind of gear we have access to.

All tests were done without Tsunami Talisman, with Monkey on, 41/20, etc .. so not to affect the accuracy of the tests with random procs.

I want to apologize in advance if anything I say here is not accurate. I'm not as much of a statistician and genius as most are on this website, but I felt that the least I could do is try to understand what I'm seeing by writing the post on our own forums (sort of like a personal notebook), and thought .. "you know, maybe the folks at EJ could use some of this). So .. don't flame me!!!!



Paste:
-------------


The purpose of this demonstration is to show the differences between Hunter DPS Macros, the effects of gear on them, and the choices between weapon speeds. I did these tests after getting the Savage Choker Haste Neck from ZA tonight, and felt it was time yet again to check the results of DPS across the board. Last time I took these results and kept them to myself, but this time I will make them public to show more detail to any min/maxers interested in learning more about maximizing hunter potential.


All tests were performed on Dr. Boom, and were tested on a duration of mana pool of 100% (Haste set = 6300, Non-Haste = 6700).

The Damage done during the mana pool is important to gauge mana efficiency.

For example, the 3:2 Macro typically produces less damage than an optimal 1:1 Macro because it is less efficient, however it produces significantly more DPS. This is important as a different macro might be useful depending on your group and raid layout (ie, No Shadow Priests, No Wisdom, etc).



The tests were performed using the stats below. Both sets were at hit cap of 136 Hit Rating or higher. No reported missed shots on any tests.


Non_Haste
==========
1655 RAP
26.15% Crit
0 Haste Rating

Haste Set
=========
1700 RAP
24.28% Crit
143 Haste Rating

Notes:

Hunters RAP is at a ratio 14 RAP to 1 DPS. So, the actual difference in RAP between the sets is negligible as it would only give about a 3 more DPS. For the purposes of this test, that difference will be disregarded.

The Crit % difference between the sets is nearly 2% in favor of a non-haste set. This should give it an edge as 2% crit makes a marked improvement in similiar set builds.

Now, on to the show:

3:2 Macro
----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______80,716______ 616.5
[No Haste] BBLR ____________77,687______ 628.2
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______82,123______ 673.90
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________72,212______ 673.1

1:1 Macro
-----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______97,510______ 554.3
[No Haste] BBLR ____________84,524______ 555.1
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______78,242______ 602.5
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________77,670______ 560.8

1:1.5 Macro
----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______71,243______ 641.5
[No Haste] BBLR ____________68,536______ 586.3
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______57,362______ 582.5
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________53,859______ 568.4


As you can see from the tests above ... Haste provides significant return when combined with the right macro. The 3:2 Macro provides a nearly 90 DPS edge over all other combinations.

The 3:2 Macro utilizes significantly more mana, but the return is profound.

The 1:1.5 Macro, which utilizes Arcane Shot, is not very efficient as the usage of Arcane Shot cuts off the next AutoShot and prevents it from being fired at the right time. This lowers DPS by a good chunk.

The original 1:1 Macro used pre 2.3 has been completely negated due to Macro/UI changes that affected macro lag and latency impact on the parsers.


For this reason, it is recommended that in optimal conditions (raid buffs, mana oils, etc) that a Hunter focus on Haste Rating & additionally, utilize the 3:2 Macro.

It is interesting to note .. that the speed variations between the guns doesn't matter when stacking enough haste with the 3:2 Macro because it auto-adjusts (a nice feature of the 3:2 macro) to the speed you are firing at. However, in all the less-forgiving macros, which gun you use can make upwards of a 70DPS difference, and that doesn't reflect the "damage" on the gun. This gives credence to the tests done by T6 hunters that the WolfSlayer Sniper Rifle and Barrel-Blade Long Rifle (used for testing here) are actually better guns in T6 content than the Illidan Bow, because even though it has less DPS, the timing on the bow causes next to no clipping even under extreme hasted conditions.

One other addendum is that the use of the 1:1.5 Macro (using Arcane Shot) can reach in the mid 600s if using the right speed combination. This *might* be of use with the TK Trinket [Talon of Al'ar] because even though the additional 40 damage does not proc on Autoshot, it will add to the base damage of the next Steady Shot. This is reported to only add about 15 DPS over time, but that would bring this rotations in to respectable ranges if it could be maintained with the right combination of gear. This warrants additional analysis. A down side to this setup is the high amount of mana it requires as Arcane Shot is another 207 mana per 10 second rotation that you do not have with other shot rotations.


3:2 Macro
----------------------

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

1:1 Macro
-----------------------

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=1.93 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


1:1.5 Macro

------------------------

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=1.93 !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I condensed some on your post for length.

It seems like your leaving dmg on the table, having traded for DPS or is it just me?

Whats the time frame this is in? Are you firing for a set time then stopping or just going until your OOM? If so, whats the set time, or how long until you run out of mana?

On most of those trials your dps is higher with haste, but your about 10k+/- lower in overall damage.
#3384SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
spinaldex
The duration is my mana pool. Which, was an important factor in my testing.

See, there's one major complaint with the 3:2 rotation .. the mana usage. So, it should reflect a significantly lower total damage per mana pool. I wanted to compare that as well. And let's be honest, at the point where you drain your mana pool, you shouldn't see much more than 10-20 DPS fluxtuation, even if one set has 500 more mana. The only way that large of fluctations happen is if you are wearing things that proc .. which is fine for raiding but not for a test like this.

From what I saw, it took about 30 seconds in to each test to hit the average DPS (watching it in Recount) I was going to get. They would pop up, and down a little from crit to crit, but what I was at within 30 seconds is what i was at 2 minutes later when I was out of mana.


I hope that helps in getting a grasp of how I ran the tests.


The interesting things I found were that:

- 3:2 Rocks and it doesn't seem to use more mana (or much) than the others.
- Weaving arcane shots if you have no haste gear, are BM, and have a slow weapon yields almost as high DPS as an optimum setup. That's good to know for any future changes that might happen with the effects of trinkets, gear, etc that could raise it's damage or other spells (like Talon).
- Stacking Haste Rating is not a bad thing as some people say. Now, I've read that "80" is a better number, and I'd be glad to try that out if anyone wants to see that. But .. I'm going for 200 Haste Rating now .. and will report back when I have the other 3 pieces I need.

Last edited by spinaldex : 04/11/08 at 3:39 PM.
#3385SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ebonleaf
Originally Posted by spinaldex View Post
The duration is my mana pool. Which, was an important factor in my testing.

See, there's one major complaint with the 3:2 rotation .. the mana usage. So, it should reflect a significantly lower total damage per mana pool. I wanted to compare that as well. And let's be honest, at the point where you drain your mana pool, you shouldn't see much more than 10-20 DPS fluctuation, even if one set has 500 more mana. The only way that large of fluctuations happen is if you are wearing things that proc .. which is fine for raiding but not for a test like this.

From what I saw, it took about 30 seconds in to each test to hit the average DPS (watching it in Recount) I was going to get. They would pop up, and down a little from crit to crit, but what I was at within 30 seconds is what i was at 2 minutes later when I was out of mana.


I hope that helps in getting a grasp of how I ran the tests.


The interesting things I found were that:

- 3:2 Rocks and it doesn't seem to use more mana (or much) than the others.
- Weaving arcane shots if you have no haste gear, are BM, and have a slow weapon yields almost as high DPS as an optimum setup. That's good to know for any future changes that might happen with the effects of trinkets, gear, etc that could raise it's damage or other spells (like Talon).
- Stacking Haste Rating is not a bad thing as some people say. Now, I've read that "80" is a better number, and I'd be glad to try that out if anyone wants to see that. But .. I'm going for 200 Haste Rating now .. and will report back when I have the other 3 pieces I need.
I guess what I'm getting at is are you seeing these haste improvements in your WWS reports and over all raid performance? Are you topping the DPS while coming in lower on overall damage, or are they rising in unison? You can fire 1 shot, crit, and not fire again for 30 seconds and your DPS for that second will be high, with a poor damage return.

Honestly, i used to look at my DPS alot. Now i look more at my overall dmg with a glance at DPS. Take Hydross for example. A warlocks or mages dps may be leaps and bounds (2-300) beyond mine for the simple fact that they're aoe bombing the adds, but my overall damage is right up there among them if not more so at times.
#3386SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1spinaldex
My overall damage has gone up considerably since I started building the haste set. I'm not in all T5, so don't expect ridiculously high numbers, but my WWS are starting to get in the 1400 range on favorable fights like Tidewalker. And all I'm using is a mix of crafted, trash drops, ZA gear, and a couple non T5 pieces from SSC/TK. I'm liking it so far.

DPS is damage output .. the only point in showing how much overall damage I could do is based on proving mana consumption. Mana consumption is largely irrelevant if you have:

- Wisdom on the boss
- Wisdom on yourself
- 2x Mana Oils
- Major Mageblood
- Shadow Priest in your group
#3387SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ebonleaf
Originally Posted by spinaldex View Post
My overall damage has gone up considerably since I started building the haste set. I'm not in all T5, so don't expect ridiculously high numbers, but my WWS are starting to get in the 1400 range on favorable fights like Tidewalker. And all I'm using is a mix of crafted, trash drops, ZA gear, and a couple non T5 pieces from SSC/TK. I'm liking it so far.

DPS is damage output .. the only point in showing how much overall damage I could do is based on proving mana consumption. Mana consumption is largely irrelevant if you have:

- Wisdom on the boss
- Wisdom on yourself
- 2x Mana Oils
- Major Mageblood
- Shadow Priest in your group
Just for giggles i plugged your gear into Cheekys vs my own.

On a lvl 70 mob, 9999 armor, 3:2 rot selected, ravager pet; I was a good 40+ dps above you in your current haste gear. Against a mob like Gruul or similar, 35+.

I guess we'll just stay with what works for us individually. LOL

I just can't see loosing all those extra stats and overall dmg for that much haste. But, if it works well for you, that's great and i would stay with it.
#3388SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Felixalias
Originally Posted by spinaldex View Post
My overall damage has gone up considerably since I started building the haste set. I'm not in all T5, so don't expect ridiculously high numbers, but my WWS are starting to get in the 1400 range on favorable fights like Tidewalker. And all I'm using is a mix of crafted, trash drops, ZA gear, and a couple non T5 pieces from SSC/TK. I'm liking it so far.

DPS is damage output .. the only point in showing how much overall damage I could do is based on proving mana consumption. Mana consumption is largely irrelevant if you have:

- Wisdom on the boss
- Wisdom on yourself
- 2x Mana Oils
- Major Mageblood
- Shadow Priest in your group
Unfortunately, hunters are often shoved into a group without a shadowpriest, unless you have a considerable amount of hunters (probably 3 and a feral as the other group members), and it is pretty rare to have a pally tank that is on the boss the majority of the time (Who doesn't have a pally tank for morogrim, but who has the pally tank on morogrim himself). This leaves the mana oil (often hunters use a 2hander, so only 1 mana oil can be used) and any other buffs, which is when hunters start to notice mana problems. I personally can't imagine ever going oom with JoW on the boss and Wis on me alone, let alone consumables and the shadowpriest.
#3389SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1spinaldex
Originally Posted by Felixalias View Post
Unfortunately, hunters are often shoved into a group without a shadowpriest, unless you have a considerable amount of hunters (probably 3 and a feral as the other group members), and it is pretty rare to have a pally tank that is on the boss the majority of the time (Who doesn't have a pally tank for morogrim, but who has the pally tank on morogrim himself). This leaves the mana oil (often hunters use a 2hander, so only 1 mana oil can be used) and any other buffs, which is when hunters start to notice mana problems. I personally can't imagine ever going oom with JoW on the boss and Wis on me alone, let alone consumables and the shadowpriest.
Agreed on all points, but I usually am lucky enough to have a combination of a few of them and one missing, and never run in to mana problems. Worst case I'll rotate Fel Mana Potions and Haste Potions.



----------




As far as Cheeky's Spreadsheet .... I know it's the pinnacle of think tank boredom, but I wanted to trust in tested results. I know it says haste sucks .. but ... I can't match it's results with what I'm seeing on Dr Boom.
#3390SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DaDragonFly
h-mark

One thing i wanted to toss in, although it may not affect much, is h-mark and its mechanic on adding AP. Do not forget that h-mark now stacks per shot, every shot adding i think 11 AP, up to 30 times or somthign, for a total of 440 AP maxed stacked.

Now, what I though was interesting, was the TIME that it takes to get it all stacked.... obvisouly if your on a fast (BM hasted) rotation, then you stack it up fast and gain from the 440 + ap for a longer duration. A slower shot rotation takes longer to get it fully stacked.

Anyway, just makes it interesting on final DPS numbers when you factor in h-mark.
#3391SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ebonleaf
Originally Posted by spinaldex View Post
Agreed on all points, but I usually am lucky enough to have a combination of a few of them and one missing, and never run in to mana problems. Worst case I'll rotate Fel Mana Potions and Haste Potions.



----------




As far as Cheeky's Spreadsheet .... I know it's the pinnacle of think tank boredom, but I wanted to trust in tested results. I know it says haste sucks .. but ... I can't match it's results with what I'm seeing on Dr Boom.
Actually, it doesn't... but that's cool. I don't want to keep going back and forth.

It works well for you, and that's what counts.

Just something i noticed though, the way your gemmed, your meta isn't active. Is that purposeful or ?
#3392SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Regdar
Originally Posted by spinaldex View Post
Non_Haste
==========
1655 RAP
26.15% Crit
0 Haste Rating


Haste Set
=========
1700 RAP
24.28% Crit
143 Haste Rating


Notes:

Hunters RAP is at a ratio 14 RAP to 1 DPS. So, the actual difference in RAP between the sets is negligible as it would only give about a 3 more DPS. For the purposes of this test, that difference will be disregarded.


The Crit % difference between the sets is nearly 2% in favor of a non-haste set. This should give it an edge as 2% crit makes a marked improvement in similiar set builds.




Now, on to the show:





3:2 Macro
----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______80,716______ 616.5
[No Haste] BBLR ____________77,687______ 628.2
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______82,123______ 673.90
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________72,212______ 673.1




1:1 Macro
-----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______97,510______ 554.3
[No Haste] BBLR ____________84,524______ 555.1
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______78,242______ 602.5
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________77,670______ 560.8



1:1.5 Macro
----------------------
[No Haste] Tuskbreaker ______71,243______ 641.5
[No Haste] BBLR ____________68,536______ 586.3
[143 Haste] Tuskbreaker ______57,362______ 582.5
[143 Haste] BBLR ____________53,859______ 568.4


I'm kinda skeptical about this because you never mentioned your average crit chance during each of the tests. The theory is that the longer the time spent shooting, the more accurate the results (meaning all values will be averaged out and possibly match your paperdoll, which is ideal).
#3393SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Regdar View Post
I'm kinda skeptical about this because you never mentioned your average crit chance during each of the tests. The theory is that the longer the time spent shooting, the more accurate the results (meaning all values will be averaged out and possibly match your paperdoll, which is ideal).
Exactly, getting any meaningful results from Dr Boom'ing requires not just several runs of each setup, but many runs. That is mainly the reason why most of us defer to others with more time/determination to do this. I wish I had the time and the weapons to test it out. Unfortunately I only have Don Santos, and I have indeed tested the 3:2 and found it wanting so far. More DPS indeed, but not much and at a vastly higher cost.

Btw, 14 AP isn't equal to 1 DPS. It is more like 3-4 AP = 1 DPS.
#3394SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1alienangel
Seriously, stop testing DPS by shooting at Dr. Boom and writing down the DPS number from each attempt. There are too many random variables involved for this to be useful unless you're standing there shooting for a very very long time.

Use Dr Boom for what he is, a stable target to fire shots at. Shoot at him for a while (doesn't even have to be a long while, one cooldown cycle of whatever cooldowns you use works), record how many of each type of shot you fired (regardless of whether they hit, crit or missed). Break out the calculator, work out how much each of those shots would hit for on average with your raid buffed AP, hit and crit rates. Multiply each attack count by its average damage, divide by the duration of the test, and bingo, you have a useful DPS estimate, as opposed to completely worthless records of how much damage you happened to do to Dr. Boom one evening.

This only breaks down if you have random haste procs in your normal gear, since those affect your shot ratios instead of your shot damage.
#3395SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
alienangel
So I finally found a nice tool to track uptime of various buffs - was about to try to write a crude one myself when I stumbled upon tunah's much better one: Procs with/without internal cooldowns

Sadly all I have to feed it right now are ZA logs, which are too small a sample-size to calculate reasonably accurate effective PPM. The uptime numbers are nice to look at though ^_^

Running 3:2 nearly the whole time, with DST, Imp Hawk, a Rapid Fire and a Heroism:

edit: several of the values were wrong since the script was correctly counting only my attacks but incorrectly counting everyone's procs. Fixed values with a (hopefully now correct) parse of them all again.

Madness of the Betrayer proc:
Parsing for proc named Forceful Strike
Duration: 10.6072857039315 (dev: 1.50689357686135, range: 9.59400010108948 - 14.0620000362396, n: 7)
Standard deviation of duration is more than 10%.
This can indicate a proc with no cooldown that refreshes itself.
Interval: 26.4556667009989 (dev: 13.2733689965104, range: 11.2340002059937 - 53.0460000038147, n: 6)
Uptime: 40.46%
Internal cooldown: 0.0
Proc chance: 5.26% (7/133)
DST proc:
Parsing for proc named Haste
Duration: 9.60042858123779 (dev: 0.0668812479492544, range: 9.48400020599365 - 9.68799996376038, n: 7, total: 67.2030000686646)
Interval: 33.4348333279292 (dev: 12.2548171925629, range: 20.5469999313354 - 56.9370000362396, n: 6, total: 200.608999967575)
Uptime: 28.77% (57.7s/200.6s)
Uptime2: 33.50% (67.2s/200.6s)
Internal cooldown: 20
Proc chance: 7.50% (6/80)
Quick Shots:
Parsing for proc named Quick Shots
Duration: 13.9398333628972 (dev: 4.38297466340553, range: 11.6410000324249 - 23.7339999675751, n: 6)
Standard deviation of duration is more than 10%.
This can indicate a proc with no cooldown that refreshes itself.
Interval: 36.228200006485 (dev: 10.4957693551258, range: 24.9219999313354 - 55.0780000686646, n: 5)
Uptime: 39.75%
Internal cooldown: 0.0
Proc chance: 11.54% (6/52)
The small sample size is really evident on the DST parse, with the average duration apparently varying a lot due to log timestamp unreliability.

Anyone who used Ashtongue for a reasonably long 100% dps-time fight have a 2.4 log they could zip and send me (via filefront/rapidshare I guess)? I didn't think to use mine yesterday for this.


Got a log for the Ashtongue trinket from Khara (The World of Warcraft Armory) on a 4:30 Teron kill:

Parsing for proc named Deadly Aim
Duration: 8.85550000270208 (dev: 1.73015611130118, range: 7.64599990844727 - 13.3259999752045, n: 12)
Standard deviation of duration is more than 10%.
This can indicate a proc with no cooldown that refreshes itself.
Interval: 17.0227272727273 (dev: 7.10540347109751, range: 8.48300004005432 - 31.7569999694824, n: 11)
Uptime: 52.64%
Internal cooldown: 0.0
Proc chance: 19.35% (12/62)
52% uptime on a decent length fight.

The uptime values apparently discard the duration of the last proc, I'm not really sure why. For the DST proc above I included a line for "Uptime2", which includes this value.

Last edited by alienangel : 04/12/08 at 8:37 PM.
#3396SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Olgas
Originally Posted by spinaldex View Post
Both sets were at hit cap of 136 Hit Rating or higher.
FYI, the hit cap is actually 142, not 136.

The miss rate against a level 73 mob or skull boss is 9%. So, you need 142 Hit Rating to never miss.
#3397SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Manito
Originally Posted by Olgas View Post
FYI, the hit cap is actually 142, not 136.

The miss rate against a level 73 mob or skull boss is 9%. So, you need 142 Hit Rating to never miss.
With 136 hit rating, after 1000 shots, you would miss maybe 3-4 of them, just FYI. 6 hit rating is only 0.376% less than cap, the chance of missing is minimal, to the point of almost being insignificant at best.

I run with 141 hit rating, making my miss rate 0.06% - which is half a shot missed every 1000 shots. Meaning in one night of raiding, I might miss one shot. I miss 5-6 shots every 10,000 shots. For most, this is acceptable losses.

#3398SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rifeus
Every 1 point of hit is as important as the other, except the last one.

I'm not hit capped either, lacking an odd 5 hit but it's an anoying thing. You could miss a tranq on RoS, or one of the MD shots.
#3399SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Manito
The odds of that are similar to the odds of getting a 5$ winning lottery scratch-it.

The importance of being fully capped is debatable.

#3400SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1alienangel
You can tranq RoS o.O?
#3401SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pharzo
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
You can tranq RoS o.O?
Seethe is considered a Frenzy.
#3402SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1alienangel
Originally Posted by pharzo View Post
Seethe is considered a Frenzy.
Wow.

Either I have been consistently disappointing everyone on this fight every week since I started raiding again, or no-one in my guild knows this :S

Edit: actually, Seethe isn't actually cast unless someone pulls aggro right? I don't remember seeing it too often. So probably a non-issue.
#3403SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Intermission
He casts Seethe when he is taunted. Our MT taunts on the pull so we all get Seethe, we throw a couple MD's while Seethe is up and he does his shieldslam/devastate/etc, and then when Seethe ends 10 seconds later the raid starts full dps. The hunter that isnt doing the first MD tranq's the Seethe effect (it takes away the 100% attack speed buff, and the raid keeps the aggro buff).

click these two for reference: seethe - Wowhead Search
#3404SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
Hi guys

Now that the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] clearly is the #1 dps weapon for a bm hunter, I ask myself how much hasterating would be required using a 3:2 shot rotation to really optimize DPS with this weapon. What would you say?
#3405SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Osse
Pick a few different amounts and go to Blasted Lands. That's the only way to know.
#3406SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Female Tauren
Doesn't haste make 3:2 less effective? That's why people switch to 1:1 under haste effects, isn't it?
#3407SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
Thought that a speed of about 1.95 (without impr. aoth of course) would be the optimum for a 3:2 rotation?
#3408SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Olgas
Originally Posted by Manito View Post

The importance of being fully capped is debatable.
I agree with your point. I run with less than 142 myself, even though I have gear in the bank that could get me there.

My point was only to correct the earlier post, where someone had stated they were hit capped at 136. 136 is not the hit cap. 142 is.
#3409SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Naryn
Just thought I'd do a sanity check here, which may also pose as a reminder that the "ideal weapon" is heavily dependent on your gear and shot rotation. I've read a lot of buzz about the badge crossbow, so I entered it into Cheeky's spreadsheet to see how big an improvement it would be over my [Bristleblitz Striker]. I was surprised to see that it was a downgrade (~1914 dps vs 1932 with Bristleblitz, raid buffed). Then I tried changing the shot rotation. Right now I use the 3:2 rotation, like many others do. However, according to the spreadsheet the badge crossbow beats out Bristleblitz by a large margin if I changed to a 1:1.5 rotation (1969 vs 1922). Does this sound right to you guys?
#3410SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1leflings
In reply to Naryn; yes - i can defintaly see bristleblitz being superior in a 3:2 rotation. Not only will your steady's hit harder, you will also be clipping auto shots less becaues of the slower attack speed on the bow. And in a 1:1.5 rotation the crossbow is expected to pull ahead because of less "lost" time between steady shots/specials.
#3411SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
could you post an example of the 1:1.5 rotation you used pls?
#3412SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Naryn
Auto->Steady->Multi->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->Arcane->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady
#3413SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Balle
So you just throw in a multi or arcane every now and then?
#3414SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
hum it's just confusing, finding the best weapon+rotation combo for me seems nearly impossible, since I've read a lot of different "best" options so far
#3415SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Naryn
Originally Posted by Balle View Post
So you just throw in a multi or arcane every now and then?
The rotation I posted is the one generated by Cheeky's for my gear loadout. My understanding is that it generates rotations based on minimizing autoshot clipping -- in this case, adding a special after every 4th steady shot.
#3416SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1mattrk
Originally Posted by Naryn View Post
Auto->Steady->Multi->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->Arcane->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady->Auto->Steady

Is there a macro that can do this? or is a 1:1.5 done manually?
#3417SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1jurgen
Originally Posted by mattrk View Post
Is there a macro that can do this? or is a 1:1.5 done manually?
If there is a macro that does this, it would need to be individualized for your gearset.
#3418SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Naryn
I wouldn't recommend macroing that rotation due to the situational applicabilty of Multi Shot, and the fact that your rotation would have to change due to haste effects in order to maintain optimal dps. Far better to just macro Auto->Steady and fit in the other specials when you can.
#3419SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tomcool
can somone post an example of the 1.1.5 rotation macro. I know it will differ based on gear I just need an idea.
#3420SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Naryn View Post
I wouldn't recommend macroing that rotation due to the situational applicabilty of Multi Shot, and the fact that your rotation would have to change due to haste effects in order to maintain optimal dps. Far better to just macro Auto->Steady and fit in the other specials when you can.
Agreed, however 4 Steadies = at least 6 seconds, though realistically much more, so instead of a Multi it would be substituted with an Arcane. A little less DPS but no CC problems.
#3421SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Manito
Originally Posted by Jaffi View Post
could you post an example of the 1:1.5 rotation you used pls?
The simplest 1:1.5 ratio I can think of would be to use a standard 1:1, and every other rotation, mash either arcane or multi (where applicable) during the steady cast so that it goes off with the autoshot.
#3422SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1HuntroGuy
I've been searching forever to find a macro that prevents auto-shot from clipping. I'm current speed is 2.17 on range and I'm using this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I'm looking for 3:2 macro I can spam constant without watching timers or my auto-shot to go to prevent clipping, I have horrible eye - sight and I would love a macro I can just spam without worrying about autto-shot clipping.

Thanks Appreciate The Feedback
#3423SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tune
A 3:2 macro will clip auto shots without haste buffs being up (hence the 3 steady per 2 auto). If you want a macro that just does steady, auto, steady, auto use 1:1.
#3424SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
Originally Posted by Tune View Post
A 3:2 macro will clip auto shots without haste buffs being up (hence the 3 steady per 2 auto). If you want a macro that just does steady, auto, steady, auto use 1:1.
I think the optimal speed to avoid this would be an attackspeed of ~1.60. You can achieve this with impr. aoth up, if you use the 2.80 xbow and a little bit of haste (around 50-60 haste rating). So I think this would be the best solution.
#3425SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Melkunie
The anvil is open on Neptulon so i had the chance to test the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes]
However, o far i didn't had much chances to test it out for real(had a long night of twin practice) but in the short period on dr. Boom using a 3:2 macro i saw some new records for me DPS wise.

However with rapid fire and quickshots up and using [Hard Khorium Choker] and shivering Felspine i had multiple streaks of 2 autoshots in a row. So i am not totaly sold yet with the new BOJ crossbow and will run more tests later today with different amounts of haste and different rotations. Any others who managed to pick the crossbow up yet?

Last edited by Melkunie : 04/14/08 at 8:12 AM.
#3426SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Motto
Hi Melk, long time no chat.

I would go with some ammounts of haste and using a 1:1 with this baby, just bought it in the morning before work and didn't get to test it out except on some trash around SWP.

Point of fast weapons is that it brings auto shot speed closer to steady cast time, under the same haste conditions. Back this up with decent weapon dps and we might have a winner, even in spite of all the counter-arguments and how hard it is to grasp it being an upgrade from 2 end bosses.

Keep us updated on your findings.
#3427SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Pixen
Edit: Post moved to the help thread.

Last edited by Pixen : 04/14/08 at 10:31 AM.
#3428SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Melkunie
Originally Posted by Motto View Post
Hi Melk, long time no chat.

I would go with some ammounts of haste and using a 1:1 with this baby, just bought it in the morning before work and didn't get to test it out except on some trash around SWP.

Point of fast weapons is that it brings auto shot speed closer to steady cast time, under the same haste conditions. Back this up with decent weapon dps and we might have a winner, even in spite of all the counter-arguments and how hard it is to grasp it being an upgrade from 2 end bosses.

Keep us updated on your findings.
Just came back from some more testing on Dr Boom. With some haste i managed to get it down to 1,92 seconds and 3:2 came out pretty strong. With the right timing of bloodlust, rapid fire and haste pots this weapon can be a beast.

Think i'll stick with 1:1 for now since that gave the most stable results. WTB DST from badges
#3429SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Motto
Is the stat loss (especially in +hit) worth the haste? And how much haste gave optimal results? I am at 63 if i recall right and it feels I could squeeze a bit more.
#3430SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
so you would definitely say that the xbow in combination with some haste (let's say as much as you need to reach a speed of 1.9 to 1.95) and a 1:1 rotation is the very best choice for max dps?
#3431SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1lairpie
Has anyone else experienced vastly higher than normal rates of disconnecting from wow while using a spammed 3:2 macro? I'm kind of wondering if the game is kicking me out for sending too many commands or something. I don't know the exact speed as I'm doing it by binding a mouse button to scroll up, the macro to scroll up, and it just has a slider without units on how fast i want to go. Probably 8-10 times I'd freeze up then DC from the server. My gf sitting right next to me wasn't experiencing any issues like that. It also could be some mod, so i'm going to try dropping all my mods for a few hours of playing and see if i have the same issues with the macro.
#3432SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Pixen
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
Has anyone else experienced vastly higher than normal rates of disconnecting from wow while using a spammed 3:2 macro? I'm kind of wondering if the game is kicking me out for sending too many commands or something. I don't know the exact speed as I'm doing it by binding a mouse button to scroll up, the macro to scroll up, and it just has a slider without units on how fast i want to go. Probably 8-10 times I'd freeze up then DC from the server. My gf sitting right next to me wasn't experiencing any issues like that. It also could be some mod, so i'm going to try dropping all my mods for a few hours of playing and see if i have the same issues with the macro.

I doubt that's causing the issue. I have my macros bound to toggles on my g15 keys, and they'll spam the macro every 0.25 seconds. Though, I generally only run those macros when I have something else that demands my attention (probably for 30-60 seconds at a time, a few times a night, so it's a relatively small portion of my time spent raiding. If it was non-stop spam it could be causing it, but it's unlikely.
#3433SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Balle
The 3:2 macro as been the better macro so far with the new badge xbow. From what I've seen I'm going from like 1350dps with the 1:1 to 1850dps with the 3:2 on boss fights. From what I've read the 1:1 is better then the 3:2 with the 2.8 speed of the bow, so why am i getting better numbers with the 3:2 any ideas?
#3434SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Naryn
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
Has anyone else experienced vastly higher than normal rates of disconnecting from wow while using a spammed 3:2 macro? I'm kind of wondering if the game is kicking me out for sending too many commands or something. I don't know the exact speed as I'm doing it by binding a mouse button to scroll up, the macro to scroll up, and it just has a slider without units on how fast i want to go. Probably 8-10 times I'd freeze up then DC from the server. My gf sitting right next to me wasn't experiencing any issues like that. It also could be some mod, so i'm going to try dropping all my mods for a few hours of playing and see if i have the same issues with the macro.
I have my shot macro bound to my mousewheel as well, and I noticed that if I set it to spin freely that the game would freeze up if I spun the wheel too fast. I never experienced a disconnect though. I assume that it is in fact due to too many commands being sent, as I've experienced this on the PTR as well with no mods.
#3435SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cranch
Originally Posted by Naryn View Post
I have my shot macro bound to my mousewheel as well, and I noticed that if I set it to spin freely that the game would freeze up if I spun the wheel too fast. I never experienced a disconnect though. I assume that it is in fact due to too many commands being sent, as I've experienced this on the PTR as well with no mods.
That is correct, there is a spam limit enforced by the server. However, I use a Nostromo keypad and press the macro 20 times a second and have yet to be disconnected. I should note my latency ranges from 40-120 msec normally.
#3436SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Luckydave
Hi guys, I've only been playing my hunter for a few months so I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm doing. I've heard that manually weaving your rotation with latency around 300-400 was the best way to reach peak dps. Below are 2 parses showing manually weaved shots vs macro (the steady macro with a link to another KC macro which I can't remember right now at work. I'll update it when I get home). By the way my gear sucks but I do what I can with what I've got


HKM Attempt 1 - Manual Rotation

HKM Death - Macro

Any help would be appreciated. I've checked out Cheeky's and it's saying I should be sitting at around 1460 dps so I know there's alot more that I can be doing.

Do you think it's just my rotation is off? I always get scared that I'm clipping my auto shots but my computer is running at ~50fps and I'm hitting my steady what I would consider to be pretty accurately according to my quartz bar.

Thanks in advance for any help guys, and for everyone who has helped put in on this thread thankyou for getting my dps above 600 and converting me from MM when I started raiding lol.

My Armory for those who are interested.
#3437SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1itsafineday
Originally Posted by Luckydave View Post
Hi guys, I've only been playing my hunter for a few months so I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm doing. I've heard that manually weaving your rotation with latency around 300-400 was the best way to reach peak dps. Below are 2 parses showing manually weaved shots vs macro (the steady macro with a link to another KC macro which I can't remember right now at work. I'll update it when I get home). By the way my gear sucks but I do what I can with what I've got


HKM Attempt 1 - Manual Rotation

HKM Death - Macro

Any help would be appreciated. I've checked out Cheeky's and it's saying I should be sitting at around 1460 dps so I know there's alot more that I can be doing.

Do you think it's just my rotation is off? I always get scared that I'm clipping my auto shots but my computer is running at ~50fps and I'm hitting my steady what I would consider to be pretty accurately according to my quartz bar.

Thanks in advance for any help guys, and for everyone who has helped put in on this thread thankyou for getting my dps above 600 and converting me from MM when I started raiding lol.

My Armory for those who are interested.
Dear Dave,

Your Dps is relatively good for your level of gear, i would say that you could rarely hit what cheeky spreadsheet says you could hit to, and that was good for what you did.
#3438SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Ghaniel
Hey guys, I need a little help.

Firstly i'd like to say thank you for taking the time to check out the post and helping me out. I have a bit of a unique situation due to my location so any advice would be really appreciated.

Basically I'm a BM Hunter with more or less the 41/20/0 spec. I have the new Crossbow of relentless strikes and I'm wondering what Macro I should use.

What makes my situation unique is that im in Australia and even though our oceanic servers have their clocks set to the same time as local, that's about as far as it goes. Therefore at best i'm sitting at around 300-400ms. We Aussies have had to live with this from day one and any day our ping is under 700ms is a good day :/

Needless to say this very much affects the Hunter class and it's macro spamming shot rotation. I really want to pull my weight within my guild and currently I'm usually sitting 1st-3rd on DPS at any one time but I feel I could do better.

Here is my armory link: (any other advice would be welcome)
The World of Warcraft Armory
I understand a few of my gems are a little strange, but it's mainly to activate that rather difficult meta.

I have no haste items and have been wary about getting any or using improved aspect of the hawk (especially with our mana issues these days making viper almost mandatory)

I have just been using the 1:1 macro to prevent my ping from clipping auto shots and just throwing in Arc/Multi shots as they're available (mana willing) using this tactic with my current gear (And decent ammo) I usually record myself doing around 930-940dps but I feel I could do better.

Any advice regarding shot rotations, haste etc specifically related to my horrible (unchangable) ping would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!

~Ghani

Last edited by Ghaniel : 04/15/08 at 3:56 AM.
#3439SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dendrah
Hey all!

Normally you don't question a bible but still I'm going to ask a question. I have been survival for so long that I lost the touch of beastmaster a bit. Due to change of guild and them having a better survival hunter I went back beastmaster.

My main issue is my shot rotation.
I got a 2.9 speed weapon, 15% pouch, 20% BM speed buff and 37 haste rating and use improved hawk all the time.

I'm weaving shots manual.
I hit steadyshot after each autoshot and kill command whenever I can do it.

Is this optimal? Is there a better way to do things?
What is the macro for this?

Tbh I didn't really see the difference between the 3:2 and the 1:1 macro apart form using castsequence *blush*
#3440SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1EvilDeathCrab
Dendrah:

That's the crux of it! /castsequence forces a 1:1 rotation because it must cast the spells in the order they appear. The downside is that it takes a little longer to execute (server/client communication), and can be bad if you have lousy ping. Also, if you have a slow attack speed, you could be losing a lot of downtime in between your steady->auto gap. The /cast /cast macro manages to create some magical syzygy between the planets such that if properly spammed it will generate a 3:2 rotation (typically). Depending on your haste/latency, this macro should theoretically give you the "optimal" 3:2 rotation, and with enough haste it will transition into a 1:1 rotation on its own. I would suggest checking out the shot rotation thread or the other hunter megathreads for the extreme number crunching.

I believe the current standard is that hand weaving trumps all, assuming that the player is perfectly hand-weaving their rotation. That being said, I use a macro because sunwell fights are generally very unforgiving if you stop paying attention to what's going on, so by mindlessly mashing a macro I get to concentrate on the other aspects of the encounter.
#3441SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Manito
20 times a second on your Nostromo? I use a delay of 0.5 seconds (2 times per second) and it works great for me. Why would you need 20 times a second?
#3442SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cranch
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
20 times a second on your Nostromo? I use a delay of 0.5 seconds (2 times per second) and it works great for me. Why would you need 20 times a second?
I tried 5, 10, and 20 shots/second and counted shots on Dr. Boom. 20 consistently gave me the largest number of shots (after compensation for haste effects.)

That makes sense, too. If it's time to shoot, I'll take the shot within 0.05 seconds, whereas you take it within 0.5 seconds -- i.e., you are potentially wasting up to 0.5 seconds of time where you could be starting a steady shot but are not.
#3443SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Luckydave
Originally Posted by itsafineday View Post
Dear Dave,

Your Dps is relatively good for your level of gear, i would say that you could rarely hit what cheeky spreadsheet says you could hit to, and that was good for what you did.
Thanks for the quick response. I'll stick to the macro for raids then. I've been having trouble getting the perfect rotation when I manually weave my shots, but I'm a perfectionist so I'll still keep working at it on Dr Boom until I can pull it off. The latency really screws me over though.

I'll find the macro again and post it up for the Aussies out there who are experiencing the same problems. It is the best macro I've found so far. And when I hit 1400dps I'll let you guys know how it was done haha.

Thanks again for your help.
#3444SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Yaelle
Originally Posted by EvilDeathCrab View Post
The /cast /cast macro manages to create some magical syzygy between the planets such that if properly spammed it will generate a 3:2 rotation (typically). Depending on your haste/latency, this macro should theoretically give you the "optimal" 3:2 rotation, and with enough haste it will transition into a 1:1 rotation on its own.
That's how I understood the macro as well. Using the [Ancient Amani Longbow] it weaves a 3:2 rotation, using the same macro with [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] you'll get 1:1.
I however removed the KC line and hit the button manually, due to the KC-hangup-bug.
#3445SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Naq
[Rift Stalker Mantle](with 4-set bonus) vs. [Beast-tamer's Shoulders]
What do you say guys, my skills with math very low and i dont understand how to use a spreadsheet.
Ye im a builder /cry

Last edited by Naq : 04/16/08 at 12:02 PM.
#3446SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Praxx
Originally Posted by Yaelle View Post
That's how I understood the macro as well. Using the [Ancient Amani Longbow] it weaves a 3:2 rotation, using the same macro with [Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle] you'll get 1:1.
I however removed the KC line and hit the button manually, due to the KC-hangup-bug.
Even with a 2.7 spd weapon you will need to stack some haste to push the 3:2 to a 1:1 rotation. How much haste is required I don't know. You can take a look at results of testing with different macros / weapon speeds / with and without KC here.
#3447SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aragda
Originally Posted by Naq View Post
[Rift Stalker Mantle](with 4-set bonus) vs. [Beast-tamer's Shoulders]
What do you say guys, my skills with math very low and i dont understand how to use a spreadsheet.
Ye im a builder /cry
Personaly, I have the 4/5 bonus and I dont intend to break it with just one piece. Im keeping up with the other hunter in our raids, whos got about 5 peices of gear above me at the moment, without any trouble due to the set bonus (as well as hoarding my dkp ^_^ )

Once Im able to upgrade at least two pieces (and preferably after I get my halbred so I can stay hitcapped without sacrificing my agi food) I'll probably swap em out.
#3448SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Obellix
hey guys... ive been reading alot on this 3:2 vs 1:1 macro rotation and ive also been keeping an eye out for reports on that bug with KC locking up a macro. i got 2 questions for you guys.

1. knowing that the 3:2 with KC in it will clip and auto shot here and there, will it still clip using the following macros that ive recently seen on the a few hunter forums?

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12

and

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

from what i can understand, when KC locks up, only the second macro will not work and you can still spam the first one until you get a crit again.


and 2. if i keep using my 1:1 macro, what reset timer should i put in for castsequence? my actual attack speed or something a bit higher to account for latency (usually under 200ms )


thx for your input!
#3449SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Luckydave
Hi Obellix,

That is close to the macro I use (plus the few extra bits that stop errors etc) and it is getting me better results than I can get by manually weaving and from all other macros I've used (which is alot). As far as I've found this is the best macro out there. Hope it helps.
#3450SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Badabing
Kill Command

Does ferocious inspiration proc off it?
#3451SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khassandra
I believe FI procs off any of the pet's critical hits, so yes.
#3452SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Thelegend
It has been a while since I tinkered with Cheeky's spreadsheet myself, but I was under the impression that Hit Rating was a more expensive stat than Agility. Thus logically I would have thought that for any given Raid (assuming you use Food buffs for every boss) you would be better off itemising to 20 Rating below Hit cap then using [Spicy Hot Talbuk] on boss attempts.

It isn't something I can test personally as I am fortunate enough to be above hit cap in the current optional gear I wear. If anyone has the itemisation costs of Agility vs Hit Rating I would be very interested to hear about it.
#3453SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1lairpie
Originally Posted by Thelegend View Post
It has been a while since I tinkered with Cheeky's spreadsheet myself, but I was under the impression that Hit Rating was a more expensive stat than Agility. Thus logically I would have thought that for any given Raid (assuming you use Food buffs for every boss) you would be better off itemising to 20 Rating below Hit cap then using [Spicy Hot Talbuk] on boss attempts.

It isn't something I can test personally as I am fortunate enough to be above hit cap in the current optional gear I wear. If anyone has the itemisation costs of Agility vs Hit Rating I would be very interested to hear about it.
Nope, they cost the same amount. As per the (correct in this case) WoWWiki: Item_Values a primary stat (ie not sta) and a combat rating (ie hit rating) are both worth 1. As a simple way to see this, how much agi is on a gem vs hit rating?
#3454SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jimmysnuka
hmm.. if 1 hit = 1 agi.. that would mean that the 30 hit scope is a bit better then the 28 critt scope? I would take 30 agi over 28 critt any day of the week.
#3455SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Thelegend
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
Nope, they cost the same amount. As per the (correct in this case) WoWWiki: Item_Values a primary stat (ie not sta) and a combat rating (ie hit rating) are both worth 1. As a simple way to see this, how much agi is on a gem vs hit rating?
Good to know - Thanks.

On that basis then would your optimum Raiding Hit Rating actually be 20 less than cap at 122 Rating. As 9% is only needed for Bosses, for raw optimisation, you are better having less Hit for Trash (where it is in effect wasted) then using Hit food to get to cap on boss fights.

Of course this assumes you have sufficient gear to work with, but for Raid long DPS figures I would think this is the better way (not to mention Talbuk Venison is far easier/quicker to farm than Warped Flesh!).

Food for thought.
#3456SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1lairpie
Originally Posted by Thelegend View Post
Good to know - Thanks.

On that basis then would your optimum Raiding Hit Rating actually be 20 less than cap at 122 Rating. As 9% is only needed for Bosses, for raw optimisation, you are better having less Hit for Trash (where it is in effect wasted) then using Hit food to get to cap on boss fights.

Of course this assumes you have sufficient gear to work with, but for Raid long DPS figures I would think this is the better way (not to mention Talbuk Venison is far easier/quicker to farm than Warped Flesh!).

Food for thought.
Saying the cost the same, doesn't mean they are worth the same. Spirit also costs the same amount as agility, but i think I'll save the spirit gear for my druid.

But yes, if you have a lot of gear without passive +hit on it, the hit scope is often a better choice than the crit scope. 10 hit rating costs the same as 10 crit rating, but is worth substantially more at some gear levels if you're not hit capped. As always blah blah blah spreadsheet, but yes, if you can use the hit, the hit scope is often better than the crit scope.
#3457SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Indora
You forget that 20 equiped hitrating and 20 buffed agility is the same as 20 equiped agility and 20 buffed hit.
After all it's only a different for trash and thus neglectable.
#3458SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Thelegend
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
You forget that 20 equiped hitrating and 20 buffed agility is the same as 20 equiped agility and 20 buffed hit.
After all it's only a different for trash and thus neglectable.
Well the thing is, with my current gear as is, 1 Hit rating is the equivalent of 0.573 DPS. Agility is the equivalent of 0.446 DPS. Thus for pure min-maxing I get 11.46 DPS for 20 Hit Food (when below cap obviously) as opposed to 8.92 DPS from the 20 Agility Food.

Therefore, if gear allows, you are better spending your Item Level Budget on Agility as opposed to Hit past 122 Hit Rating.

Seems like small differences on the face of things, but in reality most upgrades for me pre-Sunwell were only every giving me 5-7 DPS so it is in fact quite a substantial increase.
#3459SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Wunlastri
To be certain, isn't the +30 hit scope (from MC right) less effective at lvl 70. Like what they did with hand of justice making the proc occur less and less and higher levels? Or am I just making all of this up?
#3460SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Praxx
According to wowwiki there is no loss in effectiveness at level 70.

This schematic ([Biznicks 247x128 Accurascope]) is good even for level 70 characters and may aid DPS more than the [Stabilized Eternium Scope] if the character has not reached the hit cap. The information on the Hit page may be useful in determining this.
#3461SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Pixen
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
To be certain, isn't the +30 hit scope (from MC right) less effective at lvl 70. Like what they did with hand of justice making the proc occur less and less and higher levels? Or am I just making all of this up?
Procs were nerfed so that enchants like crusader weren't still the best available once you reached the level cap. The rating system was introduced as a scaling mechanism.
#3462SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
Originally Posted by Obellix View Post
hey guys... ive been reading alot on this 3:2 vs 1:1 macro rotation and ive also been keeping an eye out for reports on that bug with KC locking up a macro. i got 2 questions for you guys.

1. knowing that the 3:2 with KC in it will clip and auto shot here and there, will it still clip using the following macros that ive recently seen on the a few hunter forums?

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12

and

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

from what i can understand, when KC locks up, only the second macro will not work and you can still spam the first one until you get a crit again.


and 2. if i keep using my 1:1 macro, what reset timer should i put in for castsequence? my actual attack speed or something a bit higher to account for latency (usually under 200ms )


thx for your input!
how can you bind this /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 to bartender bar/button? Is it possible?
And what about Lightning Breath?

Currently I'm using this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

is it possible/ recommended to bind LB to the actionbar, too?
#3463SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Naryn
Originally Posted by Jaffi View Post
how can you bind this /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 to bartender bar/button? Is it possible?
And what about Lightning Breath?

Currently I'm using this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

is it possible/ recommended to bind LB to the actionbar, too?
Bartender adds keybindings to the Interface | Key Bindings page. You keybind a Bartender button just like any other action bar button. Now, if you're talking about what frame name to use in place of "MultiBarBottomLeftButton12", you can get the name of any unit frame with a /script command (which I unfortunately do not have access to at the moment). I use Bartender myself, and the frame name for the bar buttons is of the form "BT3Buttonx".

2nd edit: You can use the following macro to get the name of a frame on your screen. Put it on a hotkeyed action button and mouseover the desired frame (in this case the action bar button you want to use for the macro), then activate the macro:

/run if (GetMouseFocus():GetName()) then DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetMouseFocus():GetName()) end

Last edited by Naryn : 04/18/08 at 8:09 AM.
#3464SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Praxx
Originally Posted by Naryn View Post
Now, if you're talking about what frame name to use in place of "MultiBarBottomLeftButton12", you can get the name of any unit frame with a /script command (which I unfortunately do not have access to at the moment).
I think you are looking for something like this: /script ChatFrame1:AddMessage("You are hovering over frame: " .. GetMouseFocus():GetName())
#3465SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1erb
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
To be certain, isn't the +30 hit scope (from MC right) less effective at lvl 70. Like what they did with hand of justice making the proc occur less and less and higher levels? Or am I just making all of this up?
30 hit rating at level 70 is worth 1.9% hit, at 60 its worth 3%
#3466SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Obellix
Originally Posted by Jaffi View Post
how can you bind this /click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12 to bartender bar/button? Is it possible?
And what about Lightning Breath?

Currently I'm using this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

is it possible/ recommended to bind LB to the actionbar, too?
yes you can .. and you can keep all the error removal script aswell, i posted the macros in the simplest way possible to avoid confusion.

Last edited by Obellix : 04/17/08 at 5:37 PM.
#3467SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Wunlastri
Originally Posted by erb View Post
30 hit rating at level 70 is worth 1.9% hit, at 60 its worth 3%
To be certain, the cap rises as you level up and each individual point is worth less and less as you level up?
#3468SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1SpartanKillian
The cap remains 9%--it's the amount of hit rating required to achieve 9% that scales with your character's level. At 70, it's 142, or 15.77 hit rating per 1%.

There was some discussion a ways back that in a two-role model, the +hit scope would actually be better than the +crit scrope in theory, but in practice there weren't enough items out there without +hit that were strictly superior.
#3469SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Praxx
Originally Posted by SpartanKillian View Post
The cap remains 9%--it's the amount of hit rating required to achieve 9% that scales with your character's level. At 70, it's 142, or 15.77 hit rating per 1%.

There was some discussion a ways back that in a two-role model, the +hit scope would actually be better than the +crit scrope in theory, but in practice there weren't enough items out there without +hit that were strictly superior.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the "cap" is 9% because the highest level boss is level 73. However, a level 69 character would need something like 170 hit rating for level 73 mob.
#3470SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1alienangel
Originally Posted by Jimmysnuka View Post
hmm.. if 1 hit = 1 agi.. that would mean that the 30 hit scope is a bit better then the 28 critt scope? I would take 30 agi over 28 critt any day of the week.
It's better in terms of item level yes. Whether it's better in terms of DPS depends on your other gear. Just because 1 hit, 1 crit and 1 agi all cost the same on an item's budget (assuming no existing allocation of those stats already on the item) doesn't mean you should value each of them equally.
#3471SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1SpartanKillian
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but the "cap" is 9% because the highest level boss is level 73. However, a level 69 character would need something like 170 hit rating for level 73 mob.
True enough, although for all practical purposes, no level 69 is going to see a level 70 raid boss outside of one of the world encounters. But you're absolutely correct--I was thinking in terms of when we had to change over from +X% gear to the current rating system and jumped ahead to level 70. No more posting towards the end of the workday.
#3472SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
I lately see that in Cheeky 1 hit actually is worth more than 1 agility for me, it used to be the opposite, did they change it to a 2 roll system and did anyone confirm it?
#3473SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
ItadaN
Need Help

Hi guys, I am inspired with this "bible" and thus, specced to BM after being MM for like forever.

I am not that familiar with macros and I would like some help to find a gd macro for myself.

My Armory

I used to do my shots rotation manually but I realised the need to use a macro so as to not miss a shot.

I would appreciate if someone could show me a good and working macro that can be used for character.

I am currently using the one as follow:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Thanks in advance

Last edited by ItadaN : 04/18/08 at 2:47 AM.
#3474SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nuri
Originally Posted by Naryn View Post
Bartender adds keybindings to the Interface | Key Bindings page. You keybind a Bartender button just like any other action bar button. Now, if you're talking about what frame name to use in place of "MultiBarBottomLeftButton12", you can get the name of any unit frame with a /script command (which I unfortunately do not have access to at the moment). I use Bartender myself, and the frame name for the bar buttons is of the form "BT3Buttonx".
Ah hah..
I've been trying to figure this out, and at first this still made no sense to me (what? you don't specify the bar? how does that work?)

So to clarify for others like me, the format is how Naryn stated, and no you don't include the bar number. The button numbers run from 1-12 in bar 1 and then 13-24 in bar 2 etc.

For example if you want the button name for say the 4th button on the 5th bar it would be BT3Button52

Thanks Naryn
#3475SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Fimbo
Originally Posted by Thelegend View Post
On that basis then would your optimum Raiding Hit Rating actually be 20 less than cap at 122 Rating. As 9% is only needed for Bosses, for raw optimisation, you are better having less Hit for Trash (where it is in effect wasted) then using Hit food to get to cap on boss fights.
This is basically what i do.

I run at ~120 HR and switch between +20 Ag food for trash and +20 HR for bosses.

For me it is mainly due to the fact that kit that I have doesn't reach the hit cap without badly nerfing myself with old blues. So the +20 HR food is a bigger DPS increase on bosses than the equivalent Ag or AP.
#3476SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Yaelle
Originally Posted by Fimbo View Post
This is basically what i do.

I run at ~120 HR and switch between +20 Ag food for trash and +20 HR for bosses.

For me it is mainly due to the fact that kit that I have doesn't reach the hit cap without badly nerfing myself with old blues. So the +20 HR food is a bigger DPS increase on bosses than the equivalent Ag or AP.
I think this is a very good point, for alliance characters (possible Draenei in group) or Raids that do use Moonkins, you could use +20 Agility again. Being hit capped can be a waste under certain circumstances.
#3477SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dendrah
hm maybe I'm missing something but I'm BM specced and I would prefer AP food and AP pots above Agi food and agi pots...

Am I wrong to go for 40 AP over 20 agi or 60 AP over 35 agi/20 crit?

Ofc Flask beats all pots but there are no agi flasks
#3478SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
looks like this for me now:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget, exists] BT3Button47
/click [target=pettarget, exists] PetActionButton4
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


second /click is lightning breath.

Do you think putting the two clicks between auto and steady shot would be worth it?

Like this:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget, exists] BT3Button47
/click [target=pettarget, exists] PetActionButton4
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#3479SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rifeus
Originally Posted by Dendrah View Post
hm maybe I'm missing something but I'm BM specced and I would prefer AP food and AP pots above Agi food and agi pots...

Am I wrong to go for 40 AP over 20 agi or 60 AP over 35 agi/20 crit?

Ofc Flask beats all pots but there are no agi flasks
It depends on your gear level, but generally if you're raiding 1 agi > 2 AP
#3480SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gadget
Originally Posted by Dendrah View Post
hm maybe I'm missing something but I'm BM specced and I would prefer AP food and AP pots above Agi food and agi pots...

Am I wrong to go for 40 AP over 20 agi or 60 AP over 35 agi/20 crit?

Ofc Flask beats all pots but there are no agi flasks
At my gear level (T4/T5+, hitcapped, considering BoK), the 35 Agi/20 crit pot beats the 120 AP flask (by 2,5 DPS in the spreadsheet). Plus you can use the Draenic Wisdom at the same time, giving a small manaplus with Kings as well.

The 20 agi buffood beats 40 AP IMHO due to the extra 0,5% crit. However, that maybe personal pref perhaps.
#3481SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
At my gear level (T4/T5+, hitcapped, considering BoK), the 35 Agi/20 crit pot beats the 120 AP flask (by 2,5 DPS in the spreadsheet). Plus you can use the Draenic Wisdom at the same time, giving a small manaplus with Kings as well.

The 20 agi buffood beats 40 AP IMHO due to the extra 0,5% crit. However, that maybe personal pref perhaps.
Agreed. Mostly the 20 Agi foods offer 22 Agi because of Kings, and that is the crux. Kings make Agi vastly better on a 1:2 scale compared to AP. For grinding, I suppose 40 AP is better, but I never use food for grinding.

Og and use Elixir of Major Mageblood instead of the Int/Spirit elixir. It should prove to be a much better overall effect.
#3482SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
Plus you can use the Draenic Wisdom at the same time, giving a small manaplus with Kings as well.
For regen purposes, you're actually better off using [Elixir of Major Mageblood] as Draenic Wisdom only provides you with mana regeneration while Aspect of the Viper is active. Comparing the 2, Draenic Wisdom provides you with 18 mp5 with viper (20 mp5 with 1-piece T6) while viper is active while Major Mageblood provides 16 mp5 regardless of which aspect you use.

Originally Posted by Gadget View Post
The 20 agi buffood beats 40 AP IMHO due to the extra 0,5% crit. However, that maybe personal pref perhaps.
It's neither preference nor your opinion, at most (if not all) gear levels, 20 agility will provide more of a DPS increase than 40 AP.
#3483SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
Originally Posted by Obellix View Post
hey guys... ive been reading alot on this 3:2 vs 1:1 macro rotation and ive also been keeping an eye out for reports on that bug with KC locking up a macro. i got 2 questions for you guys.

1. knowing that the 3:2 with KC in it will clip and auto shot here and there, will it still clip using the following macros that ive recently seen on the a few hunter forums?

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12

and

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

from what i can understand, when KC locks up, only the second macro will not work and you can still spam the first one until you get a crit again.


and 2. if i keep using my 1:1 macro, what reset timer should i put in for castsequence? my actual attack speed or something a bit higher to account for latency (usually under 200ms )


thx for your input!
hm, didn't notie any difference between using /click or /cast in the macro.
#3484SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Redzik
Hello im just new in here.
I spend some h searching for smth about Armor Ignore and how its compared to AP or smth but i didnt find anything.
I just dont know if use Shatt Offensive ( Aldor one +200 ap when proc) neck od MH trash neck ( 70 ap , 175 Armor ignor).
If some would be so nice and link smth about Armor ignore.
big Thx.

_
Redzik
#3485SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Crydak
Maybe we can start a "Best BM-Highend-Gear-Setup" discussion here aswell as in the sv thread (link:[Hunter] SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1 , bottom of the page)

Since max. armor penetration seems to fit with a bm hunter too,some items for a sv hunter can be working quite well in the
highend gear of a BM too.

Waiting for some Wishlists =)
#3486SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jaffi
Hey guys

do you think it doesn't matter in which order you put the spells into your macro? for example:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()


#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

which one would you recommended?
#3487SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rifeus
Originally Posted by Crydak View Post
Maybe we can start a "Best BM-Highend-Gear-Setup" discussion here aswell as in the sv thread (link:[Hunter] SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1 , bottom of the page)

Since max. armor penetration seems to fit with a bm hunter too,some items for a sv hunter can be working quite well in the
highend gear of a BM too.

Waiting for some Wishlists =)
[Hunter] Best possible DPS in Cheeky's Spreadsheet

Feel free to discuss in there I belive.
#3488SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Omegatron
Originally Posted by Dendrah View Post
hm maybe I'm missing something but I'm BM specced and I would prefer AP food and AP pots above Agi food and agi pots...

Am I wrong to go for 40 AP over 20 agi or 60 AP over 35 agi/20 crit?

Ofc Flask beats all pots but there are no agi flasks
Go with agil over AP for most cases. Kings and druid buff will buff your raw stats in raids.
#3489SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Omegatron
I do not understand the math behind it, but I am finding using the 3:2 macro using the BB to still be better then the badge Xbow.

The Xbow does nice dps, but you run out of mana too quick. Both are nice, I prefer the BB. More dps for the mana. I also use drums of battle whenever I can since I am a LW so maybe that changes my results a bit. =/

Last edited by Omegatron : Yesterday at 5:35 AM.
#3490SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jaffi
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
I do not understand the math behind it, but I am finding using the 3:2 macro using the BB to still be better then the badge Xbow.

The Xbow does nice dps, but you run out of mana too quick. Both are nice, I prefer the BB. More dps for the mana. I also use drums of battle whenever I can since I am a LW so maybe that changes my results a bit. =/
it's also my opinion, the black bow + 3:2 beats the xbow without haste. I don't know what's it like with some haste, I'll test it if some of the leatherworking patterns will drop for us in sunwell
#3491SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
I do not understand the math behind it, but I am finding using the 3:2 macro using the BB to still be better then the badge Xbow.
Less Auto Shot clipping.

it's also my opinion, the black bow + 3:2 beats the xbow without haste.
REMEMBER: The spreadsheet provides rotations, not macros!

The most time while using a 3:2 "rotation macro" (This name isn't correct, because it's nothing else than spamming your normal Steady Shot button.) with a 3.0 weapon and without haste, you will NOT recieve a 3:2 rotation!

Most likely, the result will be a 1:2 rotation.
#3492SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rifeus
Using 80 haste, 3:2 rotation and the new crossbow beats both using BB with 53 haste and 80 haste with a 3:2 rotation.
#3493SourcePosted on <=2.0.0mockery
Hello with all teh reading i have done im at a x-roads currently, even in game testing i dont think im getting teh best i can get.

Currently i have the 3.10 pvp crossbow, im bm spec and it shows my AS 2.22, im really after some feed back for what might be my best shot rotation. ive tried so many marcos and manual weaving... no matter what i do i seem to start clipping shots about 6 attacks in. im using quartz and i play with a 350 ping. blows my mind when i consider myself a good player and see under geared hunters come it and beat me in dps.

thanks in advance.
#3494SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sienna
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
Less Auto Shot clipping.



REMEMBER: The spreadsheet provides rotations, not macros!

The most time while using a 3:2 "rotation macro" (This name isn't correct, because it's nothing else than spamming your normal Steady Shot button.) with a 3.0 weapon and without haste, you will NOT recieve a 3:2 rotation!

Most likely, the result will be a 1:2 rotation.
It's not the same as spamming steadyshot button though. If you do that, you won't fire any autoshots. And with 3.0 bow + 50ish haste, spamming 3:2 macro gives exactly 3:2 for me if Kill Command is done manually. If KC is included in the macro I get something like 1.85:1. So it's all about kill command eating autos in that macro if you are not getting 3:2.
#3495SourcePosted on <=2.0.0erb
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
It's not the same as spamming steadyshot button though. If you do that, you won't fire any autoshots. And with 3.0 bow + 50ish haste, spamming 3:2 macro gives exactly 3:2 for me if Kill Command is done manually. If KC is included in the macro I get something like 1.85:1. So it's all about kill command eating autos in that macro if you are not getting 3:2.
I've noticed that I can never really get 3:2. Last nights pug Gruul as an example Would this be a factor of KC or more so of DST?
#3496SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Praxx
That would be Kill Command bumping some auto shots.
#3497SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Manito
KC has always bumped Auto Shots, using the separated macro helps to reduce this _some_, but nothing is perfect. You'll see significant DPS differences for your pet if you compare macroing KC versus manually weaving it in - you'll simply see more casts of KC when it is macro'd.

The most time while using a 3:2 "rotation macro" (This name isn't correct, because it's nothing else than spamming your normal Steady Shot button.)
Unlike "spamming the normal Steady Shot button" - this macro has !Auto Shot...it will force the Auto Shots if it is available, where spamming the Steady Shot button will not, and will more often than not simply cast Steady over and over again.

I've noticed that I can never really get 3:2. Last nights pug Gruul as an example Would this be a factor of KC or more so of DST?
Gruul would be a bad one to test it on, as you are typically moving a lot more than most fights (avoiding cave-ins and other players during Shatter). DST will also affect your apparent ratio massively, I have DST as well, and when it procs, I am firing 1:1 every time.
#3498SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jaffi
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
KC has always bumped Auto Shots, using the separated macro helps to reduce this _some_, but nothing is perfect. You'll see significant DPS differences for your pet if you compare macroing KC versus manually weaving it in - you'll simply see more casts of KC when it is macro'd.
So macrong kc in your seperated macro would be the best choice I guess?
#3499SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
It's not the same as spamming steadyshot button though. If you do that, you won't fire any autoshots.
Uh, you're right, sorry.

But the point is:
A lot of people do not understand the difference between a macro and a rotation.
#3501SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1bulldazhor
Originally Posted by Witherwings View Post
Hi : )
Bla Bla Bla
this is again not the right post for this kind of question, please use the dedicated post on this same forum.
it's noit difficult to find, it's simply called Hunter, Help me please

regards
#3502SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cranch
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
It's not the same as spamming steadyshot button though. If you do that, you won't fire any autoshots. And with 3.0 bow + 50ish haste, spamming 3:2 macro gives exactly 3:2 for me if Kill Command is done manually. If KC is included in the macro I get something like 1.85:1. So it's all about kill command eating autos in that macro if you are not getting 3:2.
Well, looking at my WWS's on bosses lately, my steady:auto ratio is much closer to 1.1:1, from which I would conclude that quickshots occur often enough that I don't have a problem with losing autoshots.

I'm curious as to exactly how you do the manual KC. Do you wait until autoshot has gone off but you haven't started doing steady? Or do you just pound a separate key with KC bound to it?

Did you compare your total dps/damage both ways?
#3503SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1lairpie
I have KC on a separate key and hit KC and my steady button basically simultaneously, but KC slightly ahead. I haven't tested a ton, but from actually watching, that seemed to basically eliminate KC eating autoshot.
#3504SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Pixen
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
I have KC on a separate key and hit KC and my steady button basically simultaneously, but KC slightly ahead. I haven't tested a ton, but from actually watching, that seemed to basically eliminate KC eating autoshot.
Yeah I did this for a while when I was manually weaving; had KC bound to my mousebutton and spammed it in between steady shot casts. Worked pretty well.

Now I have my 3:2 macro on a toggle, so I can't really work KC in manually. At least, I don't have a real incentive to do so.
#3505SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1lairpie
I just had the thought to simply have the g15 toggle macro that basically just spams mouse wheel up for me, bound to a 3:2 macro, also separately spam mouse wheel down or something for KC. That would essentially mimic me manually hitting KC macro followed immediately by steady/auto macro. By actually separating them as far as the game is concerned, might prevent KC from eating some of the autos. Anyone else try doing something like that with a toggle macro separately hitting KC then immediately a 3:2 macro w/o KC in it?
#3506SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Guys is there something we don't know about crit chance against bosses? I've runned a entire BT with 42% crit and just checked WWS of all bosses, the average auto crit I got is 30% and average steady I got is 31%. I can understand that in a short fight RNG can play tricks, but an entire BT run with 4000 arrows shot, isn't it a bit strange that the crit rating is 10 below of what it should be?

It's been like this last week at brutallus as well, I had 42% crit and a retri pally, so 45% total crit, the most I had was again 30% on both steady and auto, in all tries.
#3507SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1lairpie
Mind posting that wws link, even as anonymous? Might help if we can actually see what you're talking about and possibly be able to tell why. One small part of that is I believe your character sheet is your chance to crit against lvl 70 mobs, not lvl 73.
#3508SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
Mind posting that wws link, even as anonymous? Might help if we can actually see what you're talking about and possibly be able to tell why. One small part of that is I believe your character sheet is your chance to crit against lvl 70 mobs, not lvl 73.
Yes, but crit chance against lvl 73 is not 11 lower than your crit chance against lvl 70, it's like 0.12% lower or something like that.

Here is the link

Tailss - WWS

although now I checked the entire run including trash and it's 35% steady and 33% auto. Still quite low. But bosses even lower.
#3509SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Yes, but crit chance against lvl 73 is not 11 lower than your crit chance against lvl 70, it's like 0.12% lower or something like that.

Here is the link

Tailss - WWS

although now I checked the entire run including trash and it's 35% steady and 33% auto. Still quite low. But bosses even lower.
Hmm... that is somewhat odd indeed. Looked you up on Armory and your tooltip crit is 31% (only one PvP item so I assume it is raidgear I looked at), in the raid you had Leader of the Pack, Scroll of Agility (only once though), Blessing of Kings and Mark of the Wild. That's about 7.5% extra crit. And as you say a Retri pally for another 3%.

However, I noticed that your hitrating is 100 flat, so perhaps some of the reason could be found in missed shots? Each miss would result in an overall reduction in critpercentage now that we know we are on a one-roll. And with no Well Fed I know you didn't eat any Spicy Talbuk... So perhaps that is the essence of it? Misses and lvl 73 bosses.
#3510SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Manito
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
Hmm... that is somewhat odd indeed. Looked you up on Armory and your tooltip crit is 31% (only one PvP item so I assume it is raidgear I looked at), in the raid you had Leader of the Pack, Scroll of Agility (only once though), Blessing of Kings and Mark of the Wild. That's about 7.5% extra crit. And as you say a Retri pally for another 3%.

However, I noticed that your hitrating is 100 flat, so perhaps some of the reason could be found in missed shots? Each miss would result in an overall reduction in critpercentage now that we know we are on a one-roll. And with no Well Fed I know you didn't eat any Spicy Talbuk... So perhaps that is the essence of it? Misses and lvl 73 bosses.
Don't you mean now that we know we're on a two-roll system? One roll for hit, one roll for crit?
#3511SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
I had a shaman as well, agility totem = 2% crit. I had exactly 42% crit on all boss fights and I use spicy hot talbuk so I go with 120 hit rating. That's 1.5% chance to miss. So my crit should be around 40%. Not 31%.
#3512SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
Don't you mean now that we know we're on a two-roll system? One roll for hit, one roll for crit?
Of course... doh!

Originally Posted by Sienna
I had a shaman as well, agility totem = 2% crit. I had exactly 42% crit on all boss fights and I use spicy hot talbuk so I go with 120 hit rating. That's 1.5% chance to miss. So my crit should be around 40%. Not 31%.
Apparently I missed the Well Fed bonus. Found it by looking up another player and then going to the Well Fed table. And passive totems don't show up... typical.

Well, I have no explaination but bad luck then. But having looked at the report split up into bosses and trash it is interesting to note that trash gives you around 38% crit, while the bosses range around 30-31% on avarage, with around 1% missed shots.
#3513SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
And this is not just one night. I've had similar crit results in other BT clears and also Brutallus tries. I asked a friend of mine to check his crit on a BT boss, he did Illidan, said he had 41% crit in spellbook and 31% crit overall on his auto and steady on Illidan. Did they break something about crits in 2.4 I wonder.
#3514SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cranch
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
although now I checked the entire run including trash and it's 35% steady and 33% auto. Still quite low. But bosses even lower.
Well, here's what I see

mob	stdy	auto

trash	38	36
naj	41	29
sup	24	30
shade	52	26
teron	31	30
ess	41	26
gurt	32	27
shahr	21	28	(due to shadow gear I assume)
malande	35	33
malande	37	34
illidan	31	31
Seems to show a large variation in crit rate, that's all.
#3515SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1env
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Guys is there something we don't know about crit chance against bosses? I've runned a entire BT with 42% crit and just checked WWS of all bosses, the average auto crit I got is 30% and average steady I got is 31%. I can understand that in a short fight RNG can play tricks, but an entire BT run with 4000 arrows shot, isn't it a bit strange that the crit rating is 10 below of what it should be?

It's been like this last week at brutallus as well, I had 42% crit and a retri pally, so 45% total crit, the most I had was again 30% on both steady and auto, in all tries.

I observed the same lack of crit at bossfights.

For example in these illidan tries:
Env - WWS

The Webstats say:
30% crit auto shot
32% crit steady

According to my charinfo during the raid it should be around 8% more.
#3516SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1mrgood
Im sorry, this must get asked all the time but I simply cant find it.
Can anyone post the 1:1 steady shot macro please?
#3517SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dendrah
/cast !autoshot
/cast steadyshot

....

Been on this forum so often...
It is the same macro for 3:2 and 1:1 if you have the speed for it

If you don't have the speed for it then use Castsequence. It is also on this forum around page 125 or so... I'm to lazy to look
#3518SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Praxx
Originally Posted by mrgood View Post
Im sorry, this must get asked all the time but I simply cant find it.
Can anyone post the 1:1 steady shot macro please?
1:1
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=1 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#3519SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Well, here's what I see

mob	stdy	auto

trash	38	36
naj	41	29
sup	24	30
shade	52	26
teron	31	30
ess	41	26
gurt	32	27
shahr	21	28	(due to shadow gear I assume)
malande	35	33
malande	37	34
illidan	31	31
Seems to show a large variation in crit rate, that's all.

And it must be 42% in average since I had 42% crit. But it's 33%. How do you explain a 9% gap?
#3520SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1QuiggyB
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
And it must be 42% in average since I had 42% crit. But it's 33%. How do you explain a 9% gap?

The same way you explain auto shot critting 26% less than steady on Shade and 6% more on Supremus. They are random numbers. The other hunter in your raid averaged over 40% and had very different numbers fight over fight than you. This is how random numbers work.
#3521SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1env
You are right, if we were just looking at a single fight.
The phenomenon spreads over the whole raiding time, in every single raid (as far as i am concerned) - this cannot be explained by randomess.
#3522SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Thetaniner
It's human nature to look for non-random streaks in a random situation. You're trying to find a reason for your low average crit rate that really isn't there at all. What you're seeing is the RNG doing exactly what it's supposed to do, but doing it against what you'd like to see. Then your brain looks for a reason that this is happening.

Look at the WWS reports over the next couple weeks and then make your assessments.
#3523SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
ohrion
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
And it must be 42% in average since I had 42% crit. But it's 33%. How do you explain a 9% gap?
The level of the mob you're attacking reduces your crit rate, RNG, lack of perfect positioning on bosses like supremus, lack of buff uptime due to other players.

Last edited by ohrion : 04/23/08 at 12:24 PM.
#3524SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Originally Posted by ohrion View Post
The level of the mob you're attacking reduces your crit rate, RNG, lack of perfect positioning on bosses like supremus may be a factor.
Yes, by 0.2%.
#3525SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Sienna
Originally Posted by QuiggyB View Post
The same way you explain auto shot critting 26% less than steady on Shade and 6% more on Supremus. They are random numbers. The other hunter in your raid averaged over 40% and had very different numbers fight over fight than you. This is how random numbers work.
Because he's a survival hunter with 50% crit, yes it's expected to have him crit more than I do, but he's also way below his designated crit chance. And no, you can't just say they are random numbers and get away with it. Did anyone even bother to check if blizzards RNG is actually up on track? If a hunter crits 30% in 1 million shots instead of his designated 42% will you still say "hey it's just RNG"? No. Randomness is only about short intervals. In long intervals with thousands of shots it MUST approach to designated. Any RNG which does not simulate the Gaussian Bell is determined to be a bad RNG.

Can you start checking your WWS reports for entire dungeon clears and see if you really approached your designated crit chance? I'm sure that I'll do this every week. And if every week I'm getting way below of designated, then something is wrong with this.

Same happened in Brutallus, I had 45% crit chance in all tries, like I said, the highest crit I got from auto and steady was 33% in a single try. That's 25 wipes, so lots of shots.

Last edited by Sienna : 04/23/08 at 12:29 PM.
#3526SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Thetaniner View Post
It's human nature to look for non-random streaks in a random situation. You're trying to find a reason for your low average crit rate that really isn't there at all. What you're seeing is the RNG doing exactly what it's supposed to do, but doing it against what you'd like to see. Then your brain looks for a reason that this is happening.

Look at the WWS reports over the next couple weeks and then make your assessments.
I'm a PhD student in mathematics (not that you need a PhD in mathematics for this but I know what I'm talking about), this is not my brain playing me tricks. I just know that in 4000 shots, 9% gap is pretty much impossible in statistical terms.
#3527SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cranch
Keep in mind that there is no guarantee that Blizzard's RNG is a nice, uniform RNG. I wouldn't be surprised if they did things to it to drastically increase its variance to make the game more interesting.

That said, if every single time you do Brutallus you have exactly the same buffs on you and debuffs on the mob, and you get approximately the same delivered crit rate, then it's reasonable to assume that a good approximation for your delivered crit rate is what you measured.

Perhaps Brutallus is more resistant to ranged physical crits. What do the other melee see regarding their crit rates?
#3528SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Keep in mind that there is no guarantee that Blizzard's RNG is a nice, uniform RNG. I wouldn't be surprised if they did things to it to drastically increase its variance to make the game more interesting.

That said, if every single time you do Brutallus you have exactly the same buffs on you and debuffs on the mob, and you get approximately the same delivered crit rate, then it's reasonable to assume that a good approximation for your delivered crit rate is what you measured.

Perhaps Brutallus is more resistant to ranged physical crits. What do the other melee see regarding their crit rates?
The moment I see my steady/auto crit 10 higher than estimated instead of 10 lower all the time I'm gonna change my mind. Until then I'm going to take the average of my crit chances, like you said, instead of what it says in my spellbook.
#3529SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Trushott
One of my hunter friends and I have been debating +hit for pets, and I was wondering if one of you guys could shed some light on the subject. Pet misses seem to be around 7-10% for just the melee swing.

1. Is there any possible way to up the chance to hit of your pet other than the 4% from BM talents?

2. Does personal hit rating give your pet 15% of it?

Any answers to these 2 questions would be greatly appreciated thank you in advance.

Last edited by Trushott : Today at 2:34 PM.
#3530SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Sienna
The only way you can increase your pets chance to hit other than BM talents is to put it in a group with a dranei warrior which gives 1% chance to hit, or to have a druid with increased faire fire which gives 3% chance to hit to all raid. Other than those I can't think of any. And your personal hit rating has no effect on your pets hit rating.

Last edited by Sienna : 04/23/08 at 2:51 PM.
#3531SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Felixalias
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
The only way you can increase your pets chance to hit other than BM talents is to put it in a group with a dranei warrior which gives 1% chance to hit, or to have a druid with increased faire fire which gives 3% chance to hit to all raid. Other than those I can't think of any. And your personal hit rating has no effect on your pets hit rating.
Don't forget [Beast-tamer's Shoulders].

edit: These don't affect hit at all. Sorry for misread.

Last edited by Felixalias : 04/23/08 at 3:37 PM.
#3532SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1SpartanKillian
While decent shoulders, they don't actually contribute to your pet's hit rating (eqv), they just help it hit harder.
#3533SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Felixalias
My mistake, sorry, misread it.
#3534SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1alienangel
Regarding the crit-rate argument, are you actually calculating your observed crit rate (total number of crits for all ranged attacks / total number of all ranged attacks), or just using the crit % calculation provided by WWS for individual attacks? There's no guarantee that WWS's crit% calculation for individual attacks will match the calculation for WoW's expected crit rate.
#3535SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cyonsiaros
Quick question,

2 piece t5, which fights if any do you guys use it on? I use it for things like rage winterchill because my pet stays in 100% and I never need to mend pet. In fact, seldom do I ever mend pet /w 2piece t5. I use rift legs and mantle for this, I do have the t6 counterparts for these slots. The dps just heals the pet through everything. I feel I might be rather addicted as I roll t6 versions for raiding less then half the time.

Generally if pets receive heals, its from the hunters that control them in our raids. It's nice to have 300+ heals per second on your pet just from doing damage and never really needing to burn a mend pet.
#3536SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Regarding the crit-rate argument, are you actually calculating your observed crit rate (total number of crits for all ranged attacks / total number of all ranged attacks), or just using the crit % calculation provided by WWS for individual attacks? There's no guarantee that WWS's crit% calculation for individual attacks will match the calculation for WoW's expected crit rate.
Why not? Isn't it what WWS is doing? Checking all steadyshots I fired and looking what % of them did crit?
#3537SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Manito
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Regarding the crit-rate argument, are you actually calculating your observed crit rate (total number of crits for all ranged attacks / total number of all ranged attacks), or just using the crit % calculation provided by WWS for individual attacks? There's no guarantee that WWS's crit% calculation for individual attacks will match the calculation for WoW's expected crit rate.
Pretty much covers what I was going to say. WWS isn't perfect, and I'm fairly certain their crit rating evaluation (as well as a number of their other calculations) are still a little in flux since the patch and the combat log changes. I've been checking my crit rating against my projected numbers with ReCount since the patch, and everything there is fine. I'm betting its a WWS issue. Do your own tests with your own damage meter (ReCount in sync with other raid members will give you just as accurate a count as a singular WWS will) and see where your crit is at.

And no offense to the person with the PhD in mathematics, but math doesn't appear to be the issue here - just an assumption that the data from WWS is 100% without fault (even though their site says it on every report that there are probably bugs and they are still working them out). Knowing that a 9% gap over a 4000 shot sample is impossible should have led you to this conclusion immediately :P

Last edited by Manito : 04/23/08 at 11:17 PM.
#3538SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Sienna
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
Pretty much covers what I was going to say. WWS isn't perfect, and I'm fairly certain their crit rating evaluation (as well as a number of their other calculations) are still a little in flux since the patch and the combat log changes. I've been checking my crit rating against my projected numbers with ReCount since the patch, and everything there is fine. I'm betting its a WWS issue. Do your own tests with your own damage meter (ReCount in sync with other raid members will give you just as accurate a count as a singular WWS will) and see where your crit is at.

And no offense to the person with the PhD in mathematics, but math doesn't appear to be the issue here - just an assumption that the data from WWS is 100% without fault (even though their site says it on every report that there are probably bugs and they are still working them out). Knowing that a 9% gap over a 4000 shot sample is impossible should have lead you to this conclusion immediately :P
I'll check with recap next run. Thanks for letting me know though, I didn't know WWS can be that faulty.

And about not coming into conclusion that the WWS data must be false, I blame blizzard. They have broken so many things in every patch, I immediately assume that they might have accidentally broken some crit talent or whatever so it results to people critting less. If Blizzard had a perfect track record yeah then first thing in my mind would be that the data must be faulty.

Last edited by Sienna : 04/23/08 at 11:37 PM.
#3539SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Suicidal Insanity
I just checked brut WWS. I would expect to have something like 36 (unbuffed) + 5 (druid) + 2 (totem) + 2 (food) + 2 (kings) + 3 (retri) crit. However I also had 10% less crit during various attempts as well as our kill.
#3540SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1alienangel
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I'll check with recap next run. Thanks for letting me know though, I didn't know WWS can be that faulty.

And about not coming into conclusion that the WWS data must be false, I blame blizzard. They have broken so many things in every patch, I immediately assume that they might have accidentally broken some crit talent or whatever so it results to people critting less. If Blizzard had a perfect track record yeah then first thing in my mind would be that the data must be faulty.
I wasn't just saying that WWS might be wrong. What I was saying was:

i. you can't compare your steady shot crit rate on WWS to your expected crit rate on Cheeky's - the latter is your crit rate over all ranged attacks, the former is just your crit rate on one attack. If you fire 50 steady shots and 50 autoshots, and none of the steadies crit but all the autos do, you still have 0% steady shot crit rate but 50% observed crit rate.

ii. WWS isn't necessarily calculating crit % in the same way the character sheet defines it. Given the 2-roll system for our attacks, I think what the crit % on your character sheet indicates is the percentage of attacks that hit which will be crits. If WWS is just counting number of crits over total number of attacks, that's a different number. On the other hand the charactersheet might mean % of crits over all attacks, while WWS could be calculating only over attacks that landed - again different numbers. Basically, you need to look at the columns for total hits, misses and crits and use them to calculate observed Crit Rate using the same system Cheeky's/Character Sheet is using to display expected Crit Rate. WWS recently also does random weird things like saying "Azgalor's death misses you" - I have no clue if it counts stuff like that against one of your missrate values (admittedly unlikely, but really weird).
#3541SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
If you are hitcapped none of that should matter though. Then what you see in WWS must be the designated crit chance in your character sheet or cheeky.
#3542SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Sienna
Ok here's some new things about 3:2 macro under heavy haste. Went to blasted lands, popped rapid fire+haste potion. Auto cooldown went to 1.03 seconds. Here is the log:

4/24 21:48:00.987 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,1651,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:01.635 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,1555,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:02.037 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,665,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:02.854 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,643,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:03.112 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,661,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:04.022 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,1570,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:04.575 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,1480,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:04.977 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,1642,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:05.956 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,656,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:06.228 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,1727,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:07.484 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,651,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:07.617 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,670,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:08.516 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,696,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:09.050 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,667,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:09.361 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,1611,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:10.548 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,630,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:10.675 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,651,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:11.670 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,659,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:12.215 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,1562,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:12.474 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,75,"Auto Shot",0x1,1723,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
4/24 21:48:13.674 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000FBAA77,"Tailss",0x511,0xF130001DF405705E,"Servant of Razelikh",0x10a48,34120,"Steady Shot",0x1,650,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil


Autos are shooting at a 1000ms'ish frequency while steadies follow inbetween at a 1500-1600ms frequency. This indicates that 3:2 spamming does not have an effect on GCD indeed since you still don't get steadyshots faster than 1.5 frequency, but the macro definitely removes the autoshot link to steadyshot up to a degree because during the continuous shoot of steadyshots every 1.5 seconds I still have autoshots at 1sec intervals. Which is not possible with the regular 1:1 macro or manual weaving. Autos follow faster than 0.5 seconds after steadyshot is shot. There are multiple occasions of an auto following 110ms after a steady.

Which actually shows that haste for hunters even above the haste cap, increases dps.

I did the same test with only rapid fire and the result was the same. 1500ish ms between steadyshots and 1250-1300ms between autoshots which is a bit weird since only rapid fire takes my auto cooldown to 1.44 but I was still getting autoshots under 1.44 seconds. Really weird indeed.

I don't know the exact mechanics which cause this but I'm now sure that popping rapid fire under heroism is not a waste of a cooldown. You get the dps increase still.

And watch out for the occasion where the macro actually shot 2 autoshots instead of putting a steady inbetween twice, since if it did put a steadyshot, it would have clipped that auto. It's a very smart macro indeed.

Last edited by Sienna : 04/24/08 at 10:14 PM.
#3543SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1KraxisSingular
Well that is a beauty of it really.

If your Autos become so fast that you can get two off under one GCD, or close to it, it will fire them and still get the Steady off. That is a massive increase in DPS. Meaning Rapid Fire, Quick Shots and Bloodlust/Heroics can combine to form a most powerful DPS machine.

But it is getting there that is the tough one.
#3544SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Indora
Using Heroism while using a 3:2 rotation means:
The same amount of steadys.
More autos because of faster auto shots.
More autos because of less clipping.

Using Heroism while already using a 1:1 means:
The same amount of steadys.
More auto because of faster auto shots.


You see the difference?
I think stacking huge haste buffs isn't the way to go, trying to get a 1:1 rotation all the time is the best way.

Only if you're at ie 1.3 or 1.2 speed and still have a 1:1 rotation, goimg to 2:3 (steady:auto) makes sense. (But still not as much as while shooting 3:2, because the clipping while 1:1 isn't as high as using 3:2)
#3545SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ebonleaf
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
Using Heroism while using a 3:2 rotation means:
The same amount of steadys.
More autos because of faster auto shots.
More autos because of less clipping.

Using Heroism while already using a 1:1 means:
The same amount of steadys.
More auto because of faster auto shots.


You see the difference?
I think stacking huge haste buffs isn't the way to go, trying to get a 1:1 rotation all the time is the best way.

Only if you're at ie 1.3 or 1.2 speed and still have a 1:1 rotation, goimg to 2:3 (steady:auto) makes sense. (But still not as much as while shooting 3:2, because the clipping while 1:1 isn't as high as using 3:2)
I did notice that with the haste axe and crossbow, per cheekys (I don't take it as gospel by any means but it has been pretty damn accurate so far with everything i've modeled), my DPS would be higher on a 1:1 rotation. However its registering that my overall damage done after 50 shots would be lower. The reverse would be said of the 3:2 rotation. I use Manitou's macro for 3:2, manually timed for a 1:1. When my DST or IAoTH proc, or when rapid fire is up, i can mash for a pretty steady 1:1. I can drop back to manual timing 1:1 when the haste effects subside. It seems to work fairly well right now. I'm about 15ish badges from the axe. The only stats i loose over the S3 are Stam and Hit, which i can make up for in other areas. I'll keep the S3 axe in my bags for my stam gear set. Just my thoughts.
#3546SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Griffen
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
Autos are shooting at a 1000ms'ish frequency while steadies follow inbetween at a 1500-1600ms frequency. This indicates that 3:2 spamming does not have an effect on GCD indeed since you still don't get steadyshots faster than 1.5 frequency, but the macro definitely removes the autoshot link to steadyshot up to a degree because during the continuous shoot of steadyshots every 1.5 seconds I still have autoshots at 1sec intervals. Which is not possible with the regular 1:1 macro or manual weaving. Autos follow faster than 0.5 seconds after steadyshot is shot. There are multiple occasions of an auto following 110ms after a steady.
My assumption about 3:2 and gcd is that gcd is still accounted for but that it "starts" while auto shot is still casting (when spamming the macro) which would give less gap between steady shots and explain why unhasted bm hunters with 1.8+ speed sees a dps increase over 1:1 shot rotation, as well as why 3:2 is a better rotation than 2:1. But need to test this.
#3547SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
thesmoosh
I had been practicing spreading out my haste cooldowns (drums, haste pot, rapid fire), not wanting to get my autoshot below 1.5s (I used WSR and now the badge Xbow) and during last night's Teron attempt I noticed the exact same thing as Sienna. That when I popped all my haste cooldowns together my autoshot seemed to get faster without being clipped by steadies.

I don't quite understand what Indora said. I use the 3:2 macro, but unless I have JoW (and last night I didn't) I only spam it when my autoshot is 1.7s or faster, and the rest of the time I try to manually hit it to get a 1:1 ratio.

If anyone could clarify if/why stacking haste cooldowns is bad, I would greatly appreciate it.

Here's the WWS from last night: Wow Web Stats

Last edited by thesmoosh : 04/26/08 at 11:01 AM.
#3548SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sienna
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
Using Heroism while using a 3:2 rotation means:
The same amount of steadys.
More autos because of faster auto shots.
More autos because of less clipping.

Using Heroism while already using a 1:1 means:
The same amount of steadys.
More auto because of faster auto shots.


You see the difference?
I think stacking huge haste buffs isn't the way to go, trying to get a 1:1 rotation all the time is the best way.

Only if you're at ie 1.3 or 1.2 speed and still have a 1:1 rotation, goimg to 2:3 (steady:auto) makes sense. (But still not as much as while shooting 3:2, because the clipping while 1:1 isn't as high as using 3:2)
If you use a 1:1 rotation with the 1:1 macro, regardless of speed, you will clip more autos due to autos always following after 500ms. 3:2 macro spam is the only way you can have autos shooting right after steadies. You cannot break the game mechanics with manual weaving or spamming castsequence macro.
#3549SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Catcher6250
Quick Question:

As a BM hunter, do I want to stack AP or Agility?
#3550SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1lairpie
Originally Posted by Catcher6250 View Post
Quick Question:

As a BM hunter, do I want to stack AP or Agility?
1. [Hunter]Help me please
2. There is no set answer to any question remotely like that, you have to use a spread sheet that bases answers on your current gear.
#3551SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Catcher6250
Thank you for answering my question. I know there is this Cheeky's Spreadsheet thing but I don't have excel on my computer
#3552SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1DarkDisciple
So, my guild killed kalecgos finally. I had heard pets could be targeted by portals, so I speced surv and didn't use one. I raid BM for everything else basically, so I am wondering, have pets been fixed for kalec? Are they safe to use?
#3553SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lidocaine
Originally Posted by DarkDisciple View Post
So, my guild killed kalecgos finally. I had heard pets could be targeted by portals, so I speced surv and didn't use one. I raid BM for everything else basically, so I am wondering, have pets been fixed for kalec? Are they safe to use?
I don't believe Kalecgos has targeted pets for portal at any point on live servers. Perhaps the PTR, but since Week 1 of 2.4 I've never seen him do it. You're safe.
#3554SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rifeus
Originally Posted by Catcher6250 View Post
Thank you for answering my question. I know there is this Cheeky's Spreadsheet thing but I don't have excel on my computer
If you have Kara quality gear or better go for the agility gems, if not get the AP gems.
#3555SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Makata
Im having trouble with chaining Steady Shot with 3:2 macro. How can i fix this?
#3556SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Manito
Originally Posted by Makata View Post
Im having trouble with chaining Steady Shot with 3:2 macro. How can i fix this?
From what I'm seeing from your armory - 2.8 speed weapon, 27 haste rating + quiver = 2.00 attack speed?

You must have some latency issues, this is causing your auto shot speed to be overtaken by steady shot cast messages, resulting in steady shot rather than auto shots being cast. Try and reduce your latency, or increase your haste a little and get down to the 1.9-.195 range, should give you a little cleaner rotation if you're lagging bad and it can't be helped.
#3557SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Praxx
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
From what I'm seeing from your armory - 2.8 speed weapon, 27 haste rating + quiver = 2.00 attack speed?

You must have some latency issues, this is causing your auto shot speed to be overtaken by steady shot cast messages, resulting in steady shot rather than auto shots being cast. Try and reduce your latency, or increase your haste a little and get down to the 1.9-.195 range, should give you a little cleaner rotation if you're lagging bad and it can't be helped.
I am guessing he doesn't run using the [Arcanite Fishing Pole]. With [The Blade of Harbingers] he would be at 2.8/(1+20%)/(1+15%)/(1+(80/1570))=1.93 which should be just about right no?

@Makata: What macro, if any, are you using for your rotation and what does your latency average?
#3558SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Riful
I have some questions about the new crossbow from new the badge vendor.
I currently am using BB (Archimonde Bow) and we are currently on Illidan. I am also using Manito's 3:2 rotation macro
and I haven't seen any problems getting to the top of those dmg meters on most fights.
The question is if I should change to the crossbow, and if it would increase my dps?
#3559SourcePosted on <=2.0.0lairpie
No one can answer that question for you without plugging all of your gear into a spread sheet for a decent idea and testing to have a real answer. Its better for some people, worse for others.
#3560SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Meanmoocow
Originally Posted by Riful View Post
I have some questions about the new crossbow from new the badge vendor.
I currently am using BB (Archimonde Bow) and we are currently on Illidan. I am also using Manito's 3:2 rotation macro
and I haven't seen any problems getting to the top of those dmg meters on most fights.
The question is if I should change to the crossbow, and if it would increase my dps?
You would need to look at what your +hit. The 32ap cancels out the loss of 2 damage and you lose 7 crit rating. From what I can see on cheeky's spread sheet, Crossbow of relentless striking is better. I wasn't able to pull you up in armory so I'm not sure what gear you using.
#3561SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Riful
Originally Posted by Meanmoocow View Post
You would need to look at what your +hit. The 32ap cancels out the loss of 2 damage and you lose 7 crit rating. From what I can see on cheeky's spread sheet, Crossbow of relentless striking is better. I wasn't able to pull you up in armory so I'm not sure what gear you using.
I haven't been able to try out the spreadsheet yet, but I am currently 6 hit rating from capping hit. (which I will cap when I change t5 with t6/bowstitched leggings and madness of the betrayer.)
My current stats are:
Autoshot speed is 2.14
Attack power is 2092 with only hawk.
Crit is 31.21%
and hit rating is 136

I was mostly thinking it wasn't an upgrade, but I don't know if a faster weapon would increase my dps enough or at all to use 150 marks and craft a new scope for it. I guess I could buy it later if I get some pure dps items and have to get some +hit from somewhere. I used to just use hit rating food on bosses when I didn't have enough though.

Also I was wondering if pure agi gems are better than pure attack power gems?

My profile incase the one doesn't work. I don't know why you couldn't see it or if the link was wrong. But it could be because I just made this account on the forums.
The World of Warcraft Armory
#3562SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Originally Posted by Riful View Post
I haven't been able to try out the spreadsheet yet, but I am currently 6 hit rating from capping hit. (which I will cap when I change t5 with t6/bowstitched leggings and madness of the betrayer.)
My current stats are:
Autoshot speed is 2.14
Attack power is 2092 with only hawk.
Crit is 31.21%
and hit rating is 136

I was mostly thinking it wasn't an upgrade, but I don't know if a faster weapon would increase my dps enough or at all to use 150 marks and craft a new scope for it. I guess I could buy it later if I get some pure dps items and have to get some +hit from somewhere. I used to just use hit rating food on bosses when I didn't have enough though.

Also I was wondering if pure agi gems are better than pure attack power gems?

My profile incase the one doesn't work. I don't know why you couldn't see it or if the link was wrong. But it could be because I just made this account on the forums.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Just curious, what sort of answer do you expect to find? Theoretically the best answer any of us can give you is by plugging all your gear and your rotation into a model of some sort, and seeing whether the bow or the xbow produces higher numbers. Unless there's something stopping you from accessing excel spreadsheets, the best person to do this would be you.

If you want someone to do it without using a model of some sort, all you can get is opinion, or discussion of whether an upgrade is worth losing badges now when your future gear plans change the value of the upgrade.

If you really just do want opinion, I'd say stick to agi gems, stick with your current bow and 3:2 rotations, and replace your ssc ring with the badge ring.
#3563SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kengel
Hey, I've been using the gladiator crossbow. I'm constantly being told WsR is better for 41/20. Why is this, and at what point dose pure damage outweigh speed?
#3564SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Riful
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
Just curious, what sort of answer do you expect to find? Theoretically the best answer any of us can give you is by plugging all your gear and your rotation into a model of some sort, and seeing whether the bow or the xbow produces higher numbers. Unless there's something stopping you from accessing excel spreadsheets, the best person to do this would be you.

If you want someone to do it without using a model of some sort, all you can get is opinion, or discussion of whether an upgrade is worth losing badges now when your future gear plans change the value of the upgrade.

If you really just do want opinion, I'd say stick to agi gems, stick with your current bow and 3:2 rotations, and replace your ssc ring with the badge ring.
Yeh I don't have excel so I was just getting peoples opinion on this. Figured maybe other people had gone through this situation. I guess it's more technical than just seeing it by just looking at current stats.
#3565SourcePosted on <=2.0.0lairpie
Originally Posted by Kengel View Post
Hey, I've been using the gladiator crossbow. I'm constantly being told WsR is better for 41/20. Why is this, and at what point dose pure damage outweigh speed?
There's no simple set point where having an ideal speed outweighs a higher weapon dps. You pretty much have to plug your gear and buffs into cheeky's spread sheet, and see which combination of weapon and rotation give you the best damage. Its not even set for each person. I use a WSR some of the time, and the s3 rifle some of the time based on mana consumption issues. For things where i have a ret paly and am hitting pots, doing a 3:2 with the s3 is my top damage setup, but I'd rather not stop to drink every other pull when we're speed clearing things, so I use my WSR and a 1:1 rotation some of the time.
#3566SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Riful
Ok I downloaded the spreadsheet and used open office to check out the dps change.
I changed out BBS with the new badge crossbow and changed berserker's call with Dragonspine Trophy. And I also increase my dps with 5 more by using the angelista's revenge over ring of lethality.
Also gonna use Shoulders of the Hidden Predator instead of Beast-tamers. Until I get t6 atleast. But I'm not sure though if Beast-Tamers would be better for inspiration buff to be up more often? Maybe for pet friendly fights like azgalor etc.

And I went from 1156.93 DPS to 1200.46 DPS with my own buffs.

So I guess I'll be going for the crossbow and changing that ring along with using DST instead now


I'm not sure if this was with 1:1 rotation, since I don't think I can use macroes with open office.
But I guess it is mostly the same with the 3:2 rotation from Manito's macro.

Last edited by Riful : Yesterday at 6:52 PM.
#3567SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Aragda
Cheeky's does not model macros (he sais this all the time in his thread). it models rotations, some of which can be obtained with a macro. the "optimal" dps rotation (as well as the highest mana useage) has so far been impossible to macro, or rather, no one has sucessfully done it (Im sure its blizzard's intent to keep it that way so people cant play the game just by pressing one button)
#3568SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Makata
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
I am guessing he doesn't run using the [Arcanite Fishing Pole]. With [The Blade of Harbingers] he would be at 2.8/(1+20%)/(1+15%)/(1+(80/1570))=1.93 which should be just about right no?

@Makata: What macro, if any, are you using for your rotation and what does your latency average?
Macro i use

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Yeah my weapon spd is 1.93. Shivering Felspine + Bindings of Lightning Reflexes

Latency usually fluctuates between 150-25Oms

Basically if i use 3:2 without a haste proc i chain steady shots. So without procs i use cast sequence 1:1 then switch to 3:2 when i get one

Last edited by Makata : Yesterday at 9:21 PM.
#3569SourcePosted on <=2.0.0presidentofmalf
BM macro suggestions, etc.

So I'm gearing up in BT/Hyjal right now... guild has cleared both and I'll have my T6 4set soon enough (have 3 right now).

At the moment, I'm wearing S3 helm (have T6 but I think S3 is superior before 4set) , the SSO exalted neck, T5 shoulders and gloves (have T6 gloves but not wearing til 4set, & I love the t5 2set bonus and lose hit), Chest from Bloodboil, Celestial Archer bracers, DST, Tsunami, Nynjah's Tabi boots, and T6 pants. Oh... weapons are Trollbane and Black Bow of the Betrayer or the badge crossbow. Latency is 150-250 typically.

Wondering which ranged/which macro you guys think I should use and how much DPS you think I should be able to do, raid-buffed, on average. There's a hunter in my guild w/Berserker's Call and Madness of the Betrayer, also has his T6 4set and insists that due to my trinkets alone, I should be out-DPSing him by at least 100... I disagree.

What's everyone think? Thanks!
#3570SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Riful
Originally Posted by Riful View Post
Ok I downloaded the spreadsheet and used open office to check out the dps change.
I changed out BBS with the new badge crossbow and changed berserker's call with Dragonspine Trophy. And I also increase my dps with 5 more by using the angelista's revenge over ring of lethality.
Also gonna use Shoulders of the Hidden Predator instead of Beast-tamers. Until I get t6 atleast. But I'm not sure though if Beast-Tamers would be better for inspiration buff to be up more often? Maybe for pet friendly fights like azgalor etc.

And I went from 1156.93 DPS to 1200.46 DPS with my own buffs.

So I guess I'll be going for the crossbow and changing that ring along with using DST instead now


I'm not sure if this was with 1:1 rotation, since I don't think I can use macroes with open office.
But I guess it is mostly the same with the 3:2 rotation from Manito's macro.

I checked the same gear in the different version for Microsoft Excel and I could try the 3:2 rotation. I found out that DST and the new badge crossbow gave me lower DPS with that rotation. So I figured I'll be sticking to my current gear after all, and try to get 4 t6.

I went from 1223.99 DPS to 1199.53 DPS when I tried the new crossbow against BBS with a 3:2 rotation.
And only a 1dps increase with DST over berserker's call.
#3571SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kash
Just a quick question:

What's better: Deactivating LB with Windserpent and just use it manually (macro) compared to deactivating LB just in the beginning of the pull and set it to auto-cast once it attacks the boss.
Sometimes it just stays in melee range, even with auto-cast.
#3572SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Borborygmos
I guess you have seen this question like 1000 times already, but i'm a new lvl 70 hunter. I've been doing manually so far the 1:1 rotation but i wanted to try the macro. So i tried to search for it, but i found 4-5 different macros, people saying that the other people's macro delay auto-shots and i got confused.

So what is the single best 1:1 shot rotation macro for BM hunter with 1.98 attack speed?
#3573SourcePosted on <=2.0.0SiRk
Originally Posted by Kash View Post
Just a quick question:

What's better: Deactivating LB with Windserpent and just use it manually (macro) compared to deactivating LB just in the beginning of the pull and set it to auto-cast once it attacks the boss.
Sometimes it just stays in melee range, even with auto-cast.
Once a windserpent is in melee range, it will stay there unless the mob it's attacking gets rooted/stunned. DPS wise there is no difference if you put the LB in the macro or on auto-cast (if you spam the macro often enough). Personally I have it on autocast the entire time: on the first 2/3 LB's (unless you got some early crits in), the pet will stay ranged untill it doesn't have enough focus anymore to do another LB, then it will go in melee range. Ideally you should turn off autocast and enable it once your pet is in melee range, but the diffence in DPS will be negligable on boss fights.
#3576SourcePosted on <=2.0.0lairpie
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
Sadly, I am of the mind that BM hunters usually do their most contributing in lock heavy groups. Lock, Lock, BM, Spriest, Mage comes to mind first and foremost. It's annoying how the best party buff a hunter can get can best be used by casters who can barely help him and the most raid useful spec can be placed anywhere (and oft is placed poorly due to lack of personal dps). But hey, that's our class. I'm sure every other class has the same issues.
We, and many other guilds, usually do feral druid, bm hunter, bm hunter, survival hunter, resto shaman using GoA. Its a fully viable tanking group, as GoA is arguably better than commanding shout, devo, or blood pact, and for some things better than all 3. SoE for agro/dps or stone skin for mitigation help the druid, the shaman can get the better SoE, GoA, and Stone skin totems w/o sacrificing much of anything in resto.

FI stacks, you get GoA on your hunters, heroism for your hunters, mana spring and mana tide for the hunters, crit, all in all its a pretty nice group setup for everyone other than the shaman, but most of the time we have a shaman left over anyway. We usually end up with an elemental shaman with a group of casters, a resto shaman with some healers and a caster or two, an enh shaman with our rogues/ret paly/ms warrior, then a resto shaman with the druid/hunters party.
#3577SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Leneson
So on a few Teron kills ago, I decided to use Multi-Shot, which I've recently been advocating, due to its largely higher damage than steady shot. And I got these results. (this was when I had worse gear then I have now too btw).

Leneson - WWS

Now, people on the WoW Hunter forums were debating my results, saying that I got a close to 1 shot per second ratio, so even though I'm hand weaving multi, I'm losing shots per second, and thus lowering my dps. Some people on those forums claimed that spamming the macro almost always leads to a 1.1 shot per second ratio (for some mystical reason no one understands, they said), but doesn't haste and weapon speed affect that too? The person who posted that was using a 2.8 speed crossbow, in that Teron I was also.

Thanks ahead,
Leneson
#3578SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Riful
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
you sure about that part? try setting the rotation to 1:1 on the QuickShots/DST tabs, since your 3:2 macro will usually drop to a 1:1 when they're procced.

DST is a ~15 dps gain for me in the spreadsheet over Berserker's Call, also using bristleblitz and a 3:2.
You're right, I tried to put the information in again and got the same result you just mentioned. So I will change to DST. I think I saw the most increase in DPS when I was buffed (obviously).

I got different scores with the new badge xbow aswell, with my latest test I got 1 DPS less if I changed to the xbow from BBS. So I guess I'll just be changing the trinket and maybe buy the new Angelista's Revenge. I also saw a DPS increase when I used Dory's Embrace over Blood Knight War Cloak.

So the spreadsheet has helped me use the right item when I am uncertain. Because it's easy to just see which item gives you more stats, it is hard to see how those stats affect different aspects of buffs/pet and speed/rotations.

I will be going for the Neck from Supremus and Cloak from Teron and 2 more t6 items. So I figured out I "needed" less items than I thought.

Last edited by Riful : Yesterday at 6:38 PM.
#3579SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Manito
Originally Posted by SiRk View Post
Once a windserpent is in melee range, it will stay there unless the mob it's attacking gets rooted/stunned. DPS wise there is no difference if you put the LB in the macro or on auto-cast (if you spam the macro often enough). Personally I have it on autocast the entire time: on the first 2/3 LB's (unless you got some early crits in), the pet will stay ranged untill it doesn't have enough focus anymore to do another LB, then it will go in melee range. Ideally you should turn off autocast and enable it once your pet is in melee range, but the diffence in DPS will be negligable on boss fights.
You're wrong, actually. Windserpents with LB on autocast will, on some encounters (not all), actually stop meleeing, back up a couple yards, cast LB, and then move back into melee range to attack again. This is why LB is typically put into a shot rotation macro that is spammed for assured casts without melee damage interruption.
#3580SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zala
But LB consumes the Stormstrike Debuff.

Stormstrike:
next 2 Nature attacks have 20% dmg increase
200 Windserpent Lightningbreath * 0,2 = 40 extra dmg
2000 Lightningbolt Shaman *0,2 = 400 extra dmg

In a Raidenviroment you shouldnt use your Windserpent.
#3581SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Riful
Originally Posted by Zala View Post
But LB consumes the Stormstrike Debuff.

Stormstrike:
next 2 Nature attacks have 20% dmg increase
200 Windserpent Lightningbreath * 0,2 = 40 extra dmg
2000 Lightningbolt Shaman *0,2 = 400 extra dmg

In a Raidenviroment you shouldnt use your Windserpent.
Well in my case we have only one enhancement shaman and the extra DPS I get from using a Wind Serpent over other pets is enough for me to use a Wind Serpent. Since I crit all the time most pets don't fully use the advantage of the constant focus gains and lightning breath won't be affected by armor.

With a shamans stormstrike on 10sec CD and earthshock every 6 second (actually 12 seconds since they should be using flameshock every 12 seconds) I really don't want to nerf my own dps just because the shammy gets a little less dps. The enhancement shaman gets off a earthshock after a strormstrike usually so it's not always that the pets steal his buff. But I don't see this to be a reason to change as I said.

But I think they should fix it that LB won't steal charges though.

Last edited by Riful : Yesterday at 10:01 PM.
#3601SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sienna
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
The thread is at [Hunter/Shaman] Wind Serpents with DPS Shammies . I believe the conclusion was actually that if a Wind Serpent is really 50-60 dps gained per hunter, than as long as you have multiple hunters they should be using wind serpents, since an elemental shaman's gain from the debuff does not outweigh the total raid's gain from the different pets (i.e. the fact that the individual serpents gain less from the debuff than the shaman is irrelevant if there are enough serpents).

The thread didn't really conclude though, since until Cheeky can work on the windserpent model a bit more we don't have very good theoretical numbers on what the DPS difference actually is between a serpent and some other pet.
I can only say that my ravager does significantly more dps than my windserpent on brutallus and I have 42% crit raidbuffed. So I stopped using windserpent almost altogether lately. The spreadsheet shows that WS does more damage but in all the tries I had my ravager had at least 50 more dps than my serpent.
#3602SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Manito
Originally Posted by Sienna View Post
I can only say that my ravager does significantly more dps than my windserpent on brutallus and I have 42% crit raidbuffed. So I stopped using windserpent almost altogether lately. The spreadsheet shows that WS does more damage but in all the tries I had my ravager had at least 50 more dps than my serpent.
Sounds like a possible pet management issue? That, or Brutallus must somehow be resisting the Nature damage, because otherwise the math just doesn't add up. Do you have Lightning Breath on autocast or is it part of your shot rotation macro or manually cast in some other fashion?
#3626SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Manito
Originally Posted by Shotmaster View Post
I have a quick question about pet dps, specifically ravager's and wind serpents. Here are 3 WWS of 1 ravager and 2 WS on a Teron Gorefiend kill. The group was 3 BM hunters, 1 resto shaman and one feral druid. Is it typical for a ravager to have such significantly higher dps? If not, what would be a possible explanation for the difference?

Ravager - 644dps
SpiderPig - WWS

WS#1 - 482dps
NagaPlease - WWS

WS#2 - 539dps
Frostshock - WWS
After reading over the stats, from the look of it, the ravager was just hitting significantly harder physically. 1700 max damage KC, average 544. All base physical damage was higher, indicating that "Shotty" has much better gear that is improving his pets physical damage. You'll notice that the special damage effects, however, show that the WS both hit significantly harder with their personal damage attacks (19k and 29k Lightning Breath damage, versus the Ravagers pitiful 18k with Gore/Bite). It's merely a matter of better agility/AP that is increasing the ravagers physical damage, I'm willing to bet if Shotty switched to a Wind Serpent, he'd see an even bigger jump in DPS.

*edit* I went one step further, armoried all 3 of your hunters. You (Shotty) have 755 Agility, 1999 RAP unbuffed + no aspect, and you are capped on hit rating. Grimmlock, the one with the 539 DPS WS, has 570 Agility, 1913 RAP unbuffed + no aspect, and is hit capped (if I did the math right, he was buffed on armory, but I subtracted out the key stats). Scarto, with the 482 DPS WS, has 597 Agility, 1985 RAP, unbuffed + no aspect, and is not hit capped (121 hit rating, a theoretical 1.33% miss rating on a 73+ boss fight). So you have a 158 / 185 agility bonus unbuffed over both of the other hunters, which, when you factor in raid buffs (King's 10% bonus gives you more than it gives them), you're looking at a ~200+ agility deficit, which will significantly factor into your pet DPS.

Last edited by Manito : Today at 12:24 AM.
#3627SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Shotmaster
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
After reading over the stats, from the look of it, the ravager was just hitting significantly harder physically. 1700 max damage KC, average 544. All base physical damage was higher, indicating that "Shotty" has much better gear that is improving his pets physical damage. You'll notice that the special damage effects, however, show that the WS both hit significantly harder with their personal damage attacks (19k and 29k Lightning Breath damage, versus the Ravagers pitiful 18k with Gore/Bite). It's merely a matter of better agility/AP that is increasing the ravagers physical damage, I'm willing to bet if Shotty switched to a Wind Serpent, he'd see an even bigger jump in DPS.

*edit* I went one step further, armoried all 3 of your hunters. You (Shotty) have 755 Agility, 1999 RAP unbuffed + no aspect, and you are capped on hit rating. Grimmlock, the one with the 539 DPS WS, has 570 Agility, 1913 RAP unbuffed + no aspect, and is hit capped (if I did the math right, he was buffed on armory, but I subtracted out the key stats). Scarto, with the 482 DPS WS, has 597 Agility, 1985 RAP, unbuffed + no aspect, and is not hit capped (121 hit rating, a theoretical 1.33% miss rating on a 73+ boss fight). So you have a 158 / 185 agility bonus unbuffed over both of the other hunters, which, when you factor in raid buffs (King's 10% bonus gives you more than it gives them), you're looking at a ~200+ agility deficit, which will significantly factor into your pet DPS.

Thanks for the quick reply Manito. I am actually a survival hunter that went BM for a change of pace and thats why my agi is so high and why my BM gear is a little lacking. It hadn't occurred to me that my agility was the significant factor. Thanks again for the help I'll be sure to pass along the information to my guildmates. p.s. Scarto uses hit food to get him to a more acceptable +hit number.
#3628SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
Originally Posted by Nataliah View Post
My latency during raids is often around 200 ms. I use the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes and my speed is close to 1.90 without haste effects.

How quickly should the 3:2 macro be spammed? I use a program that allows me to just hold down a button and it'll continuously spam the macro. However, when used, my rotation is often 2:1, so often that it's something bizarre like 5:3 instead.
Well, I've written the program above to answer exactly this question.
Sadly, I have no idea how to write it in java, maybe someone else can do this?
#3629SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tool811
pet spec

I'm sure this has been answered among the hundreds of posts, but I'm interested in knowing the best way to spec my pet for PvE raiding. I'm currently going with a Ravager, but I've heard a scorpid puts out more dps - Any help is appreciated
#3630SourcePosted on <=2.0.0SpartanKillian
Originally Posted by Tool811 View Post
I'm sure this has been answered among the hundreds of posts, but I'm interested in knowing the best way to spec my pet for PvE raiding. I'm currently going with a Ravager, but I've heard a scorpid puts out more dps - Any help is appreciated
Do you mean Windserpent? Scorpids were the pet of choice a ways back because of the way their poison stacked/buffed but that is no longer the case--they're still useful for arenas, though. In terms of raiding pets, Windserpents and to a lesser extent Ravagers seem to be the right call. In terms of spec'ing him for raiding, get Cobra Reflexes, Avoidance 2, some small amount of +sta and/or +armor (these don't scale well), max appropriate resists for wherever your progression is, and Lightning Breath 6--which should be added to your macro, not placed on autocast.
#3651SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Teldra
I've seen some posts lately that show upper and lower speed limits for the 3:2 macro (2.1 and 1.9 respectively). Has anyone info on which specific ratios occur at various weapons speeds? For example, the 3:2 devolves into a 1:1 below 1.9 weapon speed - does it stay a 1:1 all the way down to .6 or .7?

What % crit is needed for the wind serpent to become viable? And what % crit does the wind serpent surpass a ravager?
#3652SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Manito
Originally Posted by Teldra View Post
I've seen some posts lately that show upper and lower speed limits for the 3:2 macro (2.1 and 1.9 respectively). Has anyone info on which specific ratios occur at various weapons speeds? For example, the 3:2 devolves into a 1:1 below 1.9 weapon speed - does it stay a 1:1 all the way down to .6 or .7?

What % crit is needed for the wind serpent to become viable? And what % crit does the wind serpent surpass a ravager?
This should help some:

Weapon Speed || Steadies || Autos || Steady:Auto
______________________________________

| ........ 1.59 ........ || ..... 38 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.61 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 35 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.64 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.00:1 ... | ---> Slowest speed for true 1:1
| ........ 1.67 ........ || ..... 49 ...... || .. 42 .. || ...1.17:1 ... |
| ........ 1.74 ........ || ..... 67 ...... || .. 59 .. || ...1.14:1 ... |
| ........ 1.79 ........ || ..... 40 ...... || .. 34 .. || ...1.18:1 ... |
| ........ 1.83 ........ || ..... 61 ...... || .. 47 .. || ...1.30:1 ... | ---> now closer to 3:2 than 1:1
| ........ 1.86 ........ || ..... 51 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.34:1 ... |
| ........ 1.88 ........ || ..... 31 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.30:1 ... |
| ........ 1.92 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.40:1 ... |
| ........ 1.96 ........ || ..... 26 ...... || .. 18 .. || ...1.44:1 ... |
| ........ 2.07 ........ || ..... 23 ...... || .. 16 .. || ...1.44:1 ... | ---> these speeds are the closest tested for true 3:2
| ........ 2.11 ........ || ..... 39 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.56:1 ... |
| ........ 2.14 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 14 .. || ...1.71:1 ... |
| ........ 2.17 ........ || ..... 43 ...... || .. 23 .. || ...1.87:1 ... | ---> now closer to 2:1 than 3:2
______________________________________
Remembered this from an earlier discussion on BRK - link to the original thread is here, with the link to the original WoW Hunter Forum thread inside that one: Dr. Boom shot rotation tests with a slow (3.0) bow

Hope this answers your question sufficiently.
#3653SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Omegatron
BM spec question.

My crit rating in raids buffed is about 35% with a feral druid 40%. I gave up a 1 point in Bestial Discipline for more health. I did not see the reason to have my pet focus bar cap'd out since my crit was that high in raids. I took a extra point in endurance training. I have seen other hunters put the extra point into Bestial Swiftness.

Any of you Sunwell / Blacktemple hunters doing this? Just wondering. I don't see the need for 100% focus regen at a high crit rate. 50% focus regen seems to work just fine.


I do not use a WS. I just use a ravager with with only Dash and Gore for focus skills in raids. So I have no idea how this would work for WS pets. It seems to work darn well with the ravager.

This is the spec I am using.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Thanks for any advice.
#3654SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Alwayz
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
I do not use a WS. I just use a ravager with with only Dash and Gore for focus skills in raids. So I have no idea how this would work for WS pets. It seems to work darn well with the ravager.
If you use a WS or put Bite (rank 9) on your ravager you will find that you can never have enough focus. Some pets have larger focus dumps than others though which is why it is very common to see 2/2 Bestial Discipline. Claw and Screech are very high focus dumps and if you do not have a high critical rate, or a feral druid in your party to help augment that, you're going to need that extra focus most of the time. Having 2% increased life to me does not out weigh the possible loss of pet DPS in case you do not get a lot of crits to get focus back. You could also plug this into Cheeky's to see how the spec and pet set up helps or hurts your DPS.
#3655SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Bikiniwax
I see no problems doing this. I believe there was a post months ago in this thread which showed at what Crit %'s you could start removing a point (and maybe later two) from Bestial Discipline. However, finding it is another story.
#3656SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
Even with bite and claw my cat is focus capped a lot. Anytime I crit 2 shots in a row as it gets a focus tick its going to cap out on energy. I just recently caved and went and got a wind serpent and it seems to be able to burn off the focus a bit better. However, there's still a lot of times where its not attacking because it doesn't have enough energy. Losing the damage there to gain a slight amount of survivability doesn't seem worth it. Also, getting a pet that can burn off focus a bit better would help too.
#3657SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2mofoasso
Haste BM Hunter needing help!

I have a 1.9 Bow speed with 110 haste. I also have the Dragonspine Trophy. I am not sure which to use, the 3:2 or a 1:1.

3:2

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

1:1

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence reset=3 !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

With the extra macro for Kill Command

/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command in multibar 12

If anyone can shine some light on this for me please.
The World of Warcraft Armory
My Stats on wowarmory to see my spec and such!
#3658SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Teldra
Originally Posted by mofoasso View Post
I have a 1.9 Bow speed with 110 haste. I also have the Dragonspine Trophy. I am not sure which to use, the 3:2 or a 1:1.
If you're BM, use the 3:2 macro.
#3659SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
This should help some:

Weapon Speed || Steadies || Autos || Steady:Auto
______________________________________

| ........ 1.59 ........ || ..... 38 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.61 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 35 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.64 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.00:1 ... | ---> Slowest speed for true 1:1
| ........ 1.67 ........ || ..... 49 ...... || .. 42 .. || ...1.17:1 ... |
| ........ 1.74 ........ || ..... 67 ...... || .. 59 .. || ...1.14:1 ... |
| ........ 1.79 ........ || ..... 40 ...... || .. 34 .. || ...1.18:1 ... |
| ........ 1.83 ........ || ..... 61 ...... || .. 47 .. || ...1.30:1 ... | ---> now closer to 3:2 than 1:1
| ........ 1.86 ........ || ..... 51 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.34:1 ... |
| ........ 1.88 ........ || ..... 31 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.30:1 ... |
| ........ 1.92 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.40:1 ... |
| ........ 1.96 ........ || ..... 26 ...... || .. 18 .. || ...1.44:1 ... |
| ........ 2.07 ........ || ..... 23 ...... || .. 16 .. || ...1.44:1 ... | ---> these speeds are the closest tested for true 3:2
| ........ 2.11 ........ || ..... 39 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.56:1 ... |
| ........ 2.14 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 14 .. || ...1.71:1 ... |
| ........ 2.17 ........ || ..... 43 ...... || .. 23 .. || ...1.87:1 ... | ---> now closer to 2:1 than 3:2
______________________________________
Remembered this from an earlier discussion on BRK - link to the original thread is here, with the link to the original WoW Hunter Forum thread inside that one: Dr. Boom shot rotation tests with a slow (3.0) bow

Hope this answers your question sufficiently.
If I understand the steady shot cast time mechanics then, with a 2.8 speed bow, I would need 543 haste rating to get to the point where my auto shots were coming faster than the steady shot cast timer (1.5075 vs. 1.5076). I don't believe this much haste rating is realistic.

From wowwiki: Steady Shot Cast Time = 1.5 / 1.15 (quiver) / 1.2 (Serpent's Swiftness) = 1.087 1.087 + 0.5 + 0.2 = 1.787

I carried this out to include haste rating and simply calculated the cast time of steady shot as a 1.5 spd weapon +.7 sec to determine the final cast time of steady shot.

Under the effects of rapid fire, using a 2.8 speed weapon and 0 haste rating you get a shot speed of 1.44 and a steady shot cast speed of 1.47. Once your auto shot speed drops below the cast time of the steady shot a 3:2 /cast macro will drop to a 1:1 rotation.

I have read that 1.9 final auto shot speed is the sweet spot for the BM Hunter but no math to back it up. With 107 haste rating, 15% quiver and 20% SS my attack speed is 1.896. If the calculation on steady shot cast time is correct it is at 1.715. For the table above, I would need 434 haste rating to drop to a 1.589 attack speed. That would still leave my Steady Shot cast timer at 1.55 which would not give me a true 1:1.

Am I missing something in the math...?

Last edited by Praxx : 05/14/08 at 1:55 PM.
#3660SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Teldra
Is there any way to consolidate all the current BM info onto one post somewhere? That way people can go look at one quick and easy source to answer most questions. One more macro post or question on what gear to get and I'm going to /stabeyeswithletteropener.
#3661SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Amnesiac
Hi. One of our hunters seems to be a little low on the dps, was wondering if I could get some help figuring out how to increase it.

Hunters - WWS

All three use the Badge xbow, the one with the most DPS has 80 haste rating though (1.93 speed shot), while the second has ~25 (2 speed shot) and the third has 0 (2.03 speed shot).

I also see serpent stings in the log, and have already said that those need to stop. I think it is a combination of lack of haste messing with the shot timing, plus using serpent stings. Does that sound about right?
#3662SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Bugaboo750
I Cant remember if i can post links to other guild sites...... If i cant just delete my post.
Im the class leader for my small guild. This is a post i made since most of our hunters seemed to have no idea how to hunter.
Forum Topic : Guild Forums : Vigilance - Guild Launch Guild Hosting
Keep in mind this is a Raid DPS page. i know nothing about PVP, and not a whole lot about hunters.
This is in response to the about wanted BM info consolidated.
#3663SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nzambi
Originally Posted by Amnesiac View Post
Hi. One of our hunters seems to be a little low on the dps, was wondering if I could get some help figuring out how to increase it.

Hunters - WWS

All three use the Badge xbow, the one with the most DPS has 80 haste rating though (1.93 speed shot), while the second has ~25 (2 speed shot) and the third has 0 (2.03 speed shot).

I also see serpent stings in the log, and have already said that those need to stop. I think it is a combination of lack of haste messing with the shot timing, plus using serpent stings. Does that sound about right?
The serpent sting problem is def part of it. But looking at the avg damage done on the SS and autos by the other two compared to the 3rd, it looks like he is lacking in AP comapred to the other two. I would imagine this would have more to do with his falling short on dps rather than the lack of haste.

For example: Last night on Azgalor the hunters in my guild posted these numbers. Hunter WWS 5/13
Relevant Armory profiles are here:Randyy and Nzambi

But in summation, I have 0 haste (2.03 speed). Randyy has 105 (1.9 speed). He beats me on some fights, i beat him on others. The point is there is no way that your hunter's lack of haste is the sole or even primary reason he's falling behind the other two.
#3664SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Reebz
I'll have to agree with Nzambi above, I actually make a point not to equip haste items, let alone stack it.

The most important thing a hunter can do is get their shot timings correct. If necessary, use one of the various macros available here at EJ.

Ensure that Hunters Mark is also up at all times, sounds simple, but I've seen hunters who are so preoccupied that they forget - an instant loss in 440RAP.

You're 100% correct regarding the Serpent Stings - the only time I ever use them if I am on the move (and Arcane is on CD) or I am starting a fight. Never interrupt your shot rotation to apply Serpent Sting, it wastes a GCD and is a mana drain.

Furthermore, inspect their talent trees. A lot of new or inexperienced BM hunters forego the 2 points for 4% pet hit - critical mistake! Another thing - their DPS time is at 85% on Solarian - not good. Mana oils, BoW, Mageblood elixir, chain pot. There is no reason for them to dip under 97% on Solarian, that is a pure tank and spank.

Finally, make sure they're using quality arrows.
Everyone is in Kara nowadays, there's no excuse.
#3665SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Tanth
Originally Posted by Reebz View Post
Finally, make sure they're using quality arrows.
Everyone is in Kara nowadays, there's no excuse.
They're even available in Shattrah, so even less of an excuse to not have them.
#3666SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Balle
3:2 or 1:1 with CoRS?

Okay I have 52 haste rating 1.96 attack speed with the CoRS Should i use a 3:2 or a 1:1. I didnt mean to be so vague sorry Reebz!

Last edited by Balle : 05/15/08 at 4:02 PM.
#3667SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Reebz
Originally Posted by Balle View Post
3:2 or 1:1 with CoRS?
A vague question gets a vague answer: It depends on haste, lag, etc.

But generally, assuming no haste, I'd lean towards a 3:2.
#3668SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Omegatron
Originally Posted by Reebz View Post
A vague question gets a vague answer: It depends on haste, lag, etc.

But generally, assuming no haste, I'd lean towards a 3:2.
I found the 3:2 to be best.

As to stats, find a balance, do not just stack haste and ignore crit, hit, armor pen and agil. Haste is not a bad stat. If a person has a 3.0 bow use some haste, not a lot, but you want to use it.

Just go look at the top hunter stats. I am just adding this, I think this whole idea that a 3.0 bow speed = bad to be very funny. Just look at the top hunter dps. WWS Scoreboard


Also, thanks to response to my question above.

Last edited by Omegatron : 05/15/08 at 7:54 AM.
#3669SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Indora
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
With 107 haste rating, 15% quiver and 20% SS my attack speed is 1.896. If the calculation on steady shot cast time is correct it is at 1.715. For the table above, I would need 434 haste rating to drop to a 1.589 attack speed. That would still leave my Steady Shot cast timer at 1.55 which would not give me a true 1:1.

From wowwiki: Steady Shot Cast Time = 1.5 / 1.15 (quiver) / 1.2 (Serpent's Swiftness) = 1.087 1.087 + 0.5 + 0.2 = 1.787

Am I missing something in the math...?
Autoshot casttime.
I'm quite sure that it's affected by haste, instead of fix 0.5 seconds.

Latency.
The Global Cool Down isn't affected by Latency since patch 2.3

But still, GCD is the limiting factor for your rotation. At the moment your autoshot speed (ie 1.55) is faster than your effective GCD (GCD + reactiontime), you get a 1:1 rotation.

Reactiontime.
While spamming a button with a G15, you will not come under 0.025 seconds of average reactiontime.
With a mousewheel, it's even hard to hit 0.05!


Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
I have read that 1.9 final auto shot speed is the sweet spot for the BM Hunter but no math to back it up.
I posted the math to proove this above. It's correct.
Only changing latency can push you to a 2:1 rotation at this speed.

Here are the "hastecaps" for certain weaponspeeds:

2.7: 32
2.8: 85
2.9: 137
3: 190

Most of the time, you doesn't need to stack this much haste, not even G15 user will.
It depends on how you spam your macro...

G15 User: (spamming 20 times per second)
to get 75% uptime, you need:

2.7: 10
2.8: 60
2.9: 111
3: 164

Mousewheel user: (spamming around 7 times per second)

2.7: 0
2.8: 15
2.9: 65
3: 116

Button user: (spamming around 4 times per second)
Please notice that results on this level can differ quite a lot - sometimes you have a smooth rotation for 5 cycles, but sometimes 5x 2 steadys in a row.

2.7: 0
2.8: 0
2.9: 15
3: 65

edit: As you can see, the sweet spot is between 1.92 and 1.95

Last edited by Indora : 05/15/08 at 10:43 AM.
#3670SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Halle
Originally Posted by mofoasso View Post
3:2

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
I have a hunter alt for farming that I wish to learn a bit more about so forgive me if I sound like a newbie, it's cause I am.

Been looking at macros and I understand this 3:2 is the one to use for my BM spec but what are the sound options in there for?

Also what other shots should I be throwing in (and when) to maximise dps?

As a final note, if someone could collate the info from all 140+ pages of this thread it would really help newish hunters such as myself
#3671SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Praxx
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
G15 User: (spamming 20 times per second)
to get 75% uptime, you need:

2.7: 10
2.8: 60
2.9: 111
3: 164

edit: As you can see, the sweet spot is between 1.92 and 1.95
I think we have a miscommunication. By "sweet spot" I meant the point at which the 3:2 /cast macro will put out a 1:1 steady / auto rotation.

Another part I am not understanding is, how does reaction time enter into the equation when a user with the g15 or n52 is spamming the macro 20/sec? Doesn't the automation of the button press remove reaction time as a factor?


@Halle: The sound option is there for spamming the macro. Even if your weapon does not fire you get the *click* from a shot being readied. The command keeps the sound from playing 5 times a second. As far as additional shots, BM Hunters using the macro fire steady shots and auto shots almost exclusively. In a normal stand and shoot fight I will not fire any other shots but those two.
#3672SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
H0mez
Quick question...

People using the G15 for their macro, are you constantly spamming the button or having the g15 software spam it for u? Then just using the key as a on/off switch for the macro?

Also, does using a side key at all have any added benefit compared to smashing the '3' key like I do now? I figure it would be easier to setup the g15 keys with the 1:1 and 3:2 macros for hasted procs..

Last edited by H0mez : 05/15/08 at 1:00 PM.
#3673SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Teldra
Originally Posted by Halle View Post
I have a hunter alt for farming that I wish to learn a bit more about so forgive me if I sound like a newbie, it's cause I am.

Been looking at macros and I understand this 3:2 is the one to use for my BM spec but what are the sound options in there for?

Also what other shots should I be throwing in (and when) to maximise dps?

As a final note, if someone could collate the info from all 140+ pages of this thread it would really help newish hunters such as myself
The other lines in there simply turn off the warning or error sounds and messages that will flood your game when using that macro. It's the correct macro, but it's designed to be spammed rapidly and will start giving you errors like "You can't do that yet" or "Spell isn't ready". I forget the exact message since I use that macro myself and it effectively blocks it

As a BM hunter, you don't really need to be using other shots. Sure, you can throw in a multi or arcane whenever you feel like it, but they wont do much for increasing dps, especially for a farming alt.
#3674SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Teldra
Originally Posted by H0mez View Post
Quick question...

People using the G15 for their macro, are you constantly spamming the button or having the g15 software spam it for u? Then just using the key as a on/off switch for the macro?

Also, does using a side key at all have any added benefit compared to smashing the '3' key like I do now? I figure it would be easier to setup the g15 keys with the 1:1 and 3:2 macros for hasted procs..
I use a Saitek Game Commader (same kind of thing with programmable macros) and have it set to spam a certain key on my keyboard every 1/10th second as long as I'm holding the button down. The key is bound to an in-game macro. In other words, I don't spam-wack the key, I just hold it down as long as I want to be shooting.

If you use the 3:2 macro, it will naturally devolve into a 1:1 under haste - so you don't need to hit a separate macro button.
#3675SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
I have my G4 key toggle bound to spam mousewheel up every 1/10th of a second then mouse wheel up is bound to a toolbar button. I use mouse wheel up because it allows me to type while the macro is going, where as it spamming 6 or whatever constantly would mean i can't type. As a raid leader, being able to type instructions and communicate while damaging, especially on trash where people are trying to sub in and out and such where I'm not taking care of everything on vent is one of the biggest advantages of using a macro in the first place.

I also threw in a /petattack into the macro, so my pet constantly assists me, then I have a separate macro that doesn't do anything with my pet other than tell it to LB / KC its target if it has one. That's bound to mousewheel down and toggling my g1 key spams mousewheel down.
#3676SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2H0mez
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
I have my G4 key toggle bound to spam mousewheel up every 1/10th of a second then mouse wheel up is bound to a toolbar button. I use mouse wheel up because it allows me to type while the macro is going, where as it spamming 6 or whatever constantly would mean i can't type. As a raid leader, being able to type instructions and communicate while damaging, especially on trash where people are trying to sub in and out and such where I'm not taking care of everything on vent is one of the biggest advantages of using a macro in the first place.

I also threw in a /petattack into the macro, so my pet constantly assists me, then I have a separate macro that doesn't do anything with my pet other than tell it to LB / KC its target if it has one. That's bound to mousewheel down and toggling my g1 key spams mousewheel down.
I'll give that a try, seems like that would be better so I can constantly be spamming the macro while being able to type or smash other buttons to BW, drop trap or rapid fire.
#3677SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2alienangel
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
I have my G4 key toggle bound to spam mousewheel up every 1/10th of a second then mouse wheel up is bound to a toolbar button. I use mouse wheel up because it allows me to type while the macro is going, where as it spamming 6 or whatever constantly would mean i can't type. As a raid leader, being able to type instructions and communicate while damaging, especially on trash where people are trying to sub in and out and such where I'm not taking care of everything on vent is one of the biggest advantages of using a macro in the first place.

I also threw in a /petattack into the macro, so my pet constantly assists me, then I have a separate macro that doesn't do anything with my pet other than tell it to LB / KC its target if it has one. That's bound to mousewheel down and toggling my g1 key spams mousewheel down.
On that note, binding your macro to something like F7 has the same effect (you can type while your g15 is spamming), without the annoying sideeffect that biding mousewheel up has of scrolling whatever chat window you mouseover.
#3678SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Splint
I have a Pet Macro Question.

I was wondering if anyone has a macro that will make my pet attack my target. I would like the macro make my pet dash to the target if it is up.

I've also been having an issue as to where the MA will tab target and sometimes tab onto a sheeped or CC target. Is there a way to add into the macro that if the target is CC'd and I accidently hit the attack macro that the pet will not attack the target?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

-Splint
#3679SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Praxx
Originally Posted by Splint View Post
I have a Pet Macro Question.

I was wondering if anyone has a macro that will make my pet attack my target. I would like the macro make my pet dash to the target if it is up.

I've also been having an issue as to where the MA will tab target and sometimes tab onto a sheeped or CC target. Is there a way to add into the macro that if the target is CC'd and I accidently hit the attack macro that the pet will not attack the target?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

-Splint
If you bind pet attack to a key (in the key bindings menu) your pet will attack the target you are on. It will also use dash every time it is up if you have on auto-cast.

As far as avoiding breaking CC, there is no longer a way for macros to make a decision like that. You just have to be careful with your pet. Make sure you know the kill order and switch to the next target yourself. One thing that has helped me control my bet is to have the following bindings:

pet attack: mouse button 4
pet follow: shift + mouse button 4 (to recall them quickly)
pet stay: ctrl + mouse button 4
#3680SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Splint
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
If you bind pet attack to a key (in the key bindings menu) your pet will attack the target you are on. It will also use dash every time it is up if you have on auto-cast.

As far as avoiding breaking CC, there is no longer a way for macros to make a decision like that. You just have to be careful with your pet. Make sure you know the kill order and switch to the next target yourself. One thing that has helped me control my bet is to have the following bindings:

pet attack: mouse button 4
pet follow: shift + mouse button 4 (to recall them quickly)
pet stay: ctrl + mouse button 4
Thanks very much....that solves all my needs. Appreciate it.
#3681SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Indora
The sweet spot, where your rotation become 1:1 is GCD + reactiontime.
In my exmaple, it's around 1.6.

For the most player, everything between 1.7 and 1.9 results in a 4:3, 5:4, 6:5....n+1:n rotation, not a true 1:1.



reactiontime = time to push button twice (the name is actually wrong, but I don't know a better one ^^.)
reactiontime = 1 / clicks per second
average reactiontime = 1 / clicks per second / 2
#3682SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Indora
Originally Posted by Nataliah View Post
My latency during raids is often around 200 ms. I use the Crossbow of Relentless Strikes and my speed is close to 1.90 without haste effects.

How quickly should the 3:2 macro be spammed? I use a program that allows me to just hold down a button and it'll continuously spam the macro. However, when used, my rotation is often 2:1, so often that it's something bizarre like 5:3 instead.
How much haste rating do you have exactly?
#3683SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nataliah
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
How much haste rating do you have exactly?
90 haste rating. 37 from Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes and 53 from The Blade of Harbingers.

When using the 3:2 rotation on Dr. Boom, the macro works pretty nicely. In one minute, I get approximately 37/38 steady shots and 27/28 auto shots, which is about 1.35:1, though there are still sequences where it's 2:1, but evened out by the 1:1. Every other time, mainly when I'm in a group, the macro cranks out 2:1 more often and sometimes even 3:1.
#3684SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kaji-Boulderfist
Originally Posted by Amnesiac View Post
Hi. One of our hunters seems to be a little low on the dps, was wondering if I could get some help figuring out how to increase it.

Hunters - WWS

All three use the Badge xbow, the one with the most DPS has 80 haste rating though (1.93 speed shot), while the second has ~25 (2 speed shot) and the third has 0 (2.03 speed shot).

I also see serpent stings in the log, and have already said that those need to stop. I think it is a combination of lack of haste messing with the shot timing, plus using serpent stings. Does that sound about right?

The third hunter used The Beast Within 1 time on Solarian. Assuming 7 minutes is the correct time, Optimally that should allow for 4 uses, In practice you should get AT LEAST 3 uses throughout the fight. If He's not using TBW he may not be using trinkets either which is going to hurt his DPS even more. On Alar his pet didn't do anything at all. He also didn't use TBW once.
#3685SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Indora
Originally Posted by Nataliah View Post
90 haste rating. 37 from Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes and 53 from The Blade of Harbingers.

When using the 3:2 rotation on Dr. Boom, the macro works pretty nicely. In one minute, I get approximately 37/38 steady shots and 27/28 auto shots, which is about 1.35:1, though there are still sequences where it's 2:1, but evened out by the 1:1. Every other time, mainly when I'm in a group, the macro cranks out 2:1 more often and sometimes even 3:1.
I think the 2:1 or 1:1 rows are because of uneven latency - what explains that you have these problems only while raiding, not at dr. bumm.

Based on your reactiontime, you have enough haste.
Further haste rating may helps with this problem, although i think it's not very efficient in terms of item stats.
#3686SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Leneson
So last Teron kill my guild decided we could stack a group for me and our top rogue and see If we could pump out some record dps, or at least do our best.....

These were the results: Wow Web Stats

First off, I do NOT have four piece t6, and I find by weaving multi into my rotation, in place of a steady shot, It increases my DPS, or at least seems to. People generally tend to argue with me about it, saying that spamming the 3:2 Macro does some "special effective GCD haste" crap. I personally can't understand why one wouldn't hand weave multi in, as from my wws it clearly did higher average damage than both auto and steady. Close to 200 more damage per hit to be exact......

Can ANYONE possibly explain to me the "special magic" that the macro does, that makes it completely inefficient to weave a shot that costs the same time (one GCD) and CLEARLY does more damage.....

On a side note that kill put me at 3rd hunter on WWSscoreboard, and for anyone who was curious, the group makeup was as follows....

Arms Warrior (Solarian trinket) Imp BS
Rogue
Enh Shaman
Me
Feral Druid
#3687SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Indora
There's no "special magic" which favours steady shot.
But "Using Multi Shot reduces clipping" is wrong, too.
It just makes more damage (for someone without 4x t6).
#3688SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Jaffi
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
This should help some:

Weapon Speed || Steadies || Autos || Steady:Auto
______________________________________

| ........ 1.59 ........ || ..... 38 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.61 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 35 .. || ...1.00:1 ... |
| ........ 1.64 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.00:1 ... | ---> Slowest speed for true 1:1
| ........ 1.67 ........ || ..... 49 ...... || .. 42 .. || ...1.17:1 ... |
| ........ 1.74 ........ || ..... 67 ...... || .. 59 .. || ...1.14:1 ... |
| ........ 1.79 ........ || ..... 40 ...... || .. 34 .. || ...1.18:1 ... |
| ........ 1.83 ........ || ..... 61 ...... || .. 47 .. || ...1.30:1 ... | ---> now closer to 3:2 than 1:1
| ........ 1.86 ........ || ..... 51 ...... || .. 38 .. || ...1.34:1 ... |
| ........ 1.88 ........ || ..... 31 ...... || .. 24 .. || ...1.30:1 ... |
| ........ 1.92 ........ || ..... 35 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.40:1 ... |
| ........ 1.96 ........ || ..... 26 ...... || .. 18 .. || ...1.44:1 ... |
| ........ 2.07 ........ || ..... 23 ...... || .. 16 .. || ...1.44:1 ... | ---> these speeds are the closest tested for true 3:2
| ........ 2.11 ........ || ..... 39 ...... || .. 25 .. || ...1.56:1 ... |
| ........ 2.14 ........ || ..... 24 ...... || .. 14 .. || ...1.71:1 ... |
| ........ 2.17 ........ || ..... 43 ...... || .. 23 .. || ...1.87:1 ... | ---> now closer to 2:1 than 3:2
______________________________________
Remembered this from an earlier discussion on BRK - link to the original thread is here, with the link to the original WoW Hunter Forum thread inside that one: Dr. Boom shot rotation tests with a slow (3.0) bow

Hope this answers your question sufficiently.

I ran a few tests today (without iaoth of course) at the following speeds: 2.6 2.9. In both cases, while spamming a 3:2 macro, it sometimes happened that a "wrong" steady was casted and the rotation temporary turned to 2:1. Sometimes it happened, sometimes it didn't. Think it might be a cause of latency and how fast/slow you are spamming the macro?
#3689SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Indora
Originally Posted by Jaffi View Post
I ran a few tests today (without iaoth of course) at the following speeds: 2.6 2.9. In both cases, while spamming a 3:2 macro, it sometimes happened that a "wrong" steady was casted and the rotation temporary turned to 2:1. Sometimes it happened, sometimes it didn't. Think it might be a cause of latency and how fast/slow you are spamming the macro?
My calculations above only include "reactiontime". Latency itself doesn't affect the rotation, only Latency Jitter does.
It calculates the haste / reactiontime needed for 50% 3:2 rotation uptime, but this can be changed easily.
#3690SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Leneson
Someone in the WoW hunter forums (UGH) posted this after I started talking about weaving in multi......he seems INCREDIBLY adamant about the fact that he is right, but I generally tend to take 99% of everything on the hunter forums with a truck load of salt.....

" Yes, the gcd is always 1.5 second, I'm not arguing that and I'm not saying haste makes the gcd faster.

However, for steady shot the gcd can be EFFECTIVELY shorter, due to the gcd being able to start BEFORE the casting of steady, during the window before an auto shot.

Open mind people. This is what makes 3:2 possible."

Can anyone confirm or deny what he is saying as being true? This is where the whole discussions starts, mostly sparked by my linking of a WWS.....

WoW Forums -> BT / Hyjal - Personal Best DPS ( & Sunwell )

The questioning starts by me on post 322

Last edited by Leneson : Yesterday at 12:40 AM.
#3691SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
Originally Posted by Leneson View Post
Someone in the WoW hunter forums (UGH) posted this after I started talking about weaving in multi......he seems INCREDIBLY adamant about the fact that he is right, but I generally tend to take 99% of everything on the hunter forums with a truck load of salt.....

" Yes, the gcd is always 1.5 second, I'm not arguing that and I'm not saying haste makes the gcd faster.

However, for steady shot the gcd can be EFFECTIVELY shorter, due to the gcd being able to start BEFORE the casting of steady, during the window before an auto shot.

Open mind people. This is what makes 3:2 possible."

Can anyone confirm or deny what he is saying as being true? This is where the whole discussions starts, mostly sparked by my linking of a WWS.....

WoW Forums -> BT / Hyjal - Personal Best DPS ( & Sunwell )

The questioning starts by me on post 322
It's correct, but his results aren't.
Just try to shoot a steadyshot ~300ms before your auto goes off. The GCD will start immediately, but your steady shot will wait until the auto is shot. This way, you can also avoid latency!

However, this is possible with a multi shot, too, (Although harder to see, because of the not visible casttime) and thus no argument against it.

"Open mind people. This is what makes 3:2 possible."

That's correct and very important. By sourcing out the gcd from one auto shot interval to the other, it's possible to shoot 3 steadys inbetween 2 auto intervals with quite low clipping.

edit: To clarify this: Steady Shot and/or Multi Shot do NOT have a shorter cooldown or something like that. But it's possible to move a part of the GCD from one auto shot interval to another.

Last edited by Indora : Yesterday at 7:52 AM.
#3692SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jaffi
Originally Posted by Nataliah View Post
90 haste rating. 37 from Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes and 53 from The Blade of Harbingers.

When using the 3:2 rotation on Dr. Boom, the macro works pretty nicely. In one minute, I get approximately 37/38 steady shots and 27/28 auto shots, which is about 1.35:1, though there are still sequences where it's 2:1, but evened out by the 1:1. Every other time, mainly when I'm in a group, the macro cranks out 2:1 more often and sometimes even 3:1.
same thing 4 me, it's not really possible to achieve a "clear" 3:2 rotation by just spamming a 3:2 macro... the 2:1 appears frequently. I testet it with ~83 haste (2.6 autospeed) in a bossfight and still didn't achieve 3:2 all the time..

But since this did not appear that frequently while running tests @drboom, i think it has to do with kill command triggerd bye the macro while bossfights etc.

Last edited by Jaffi : Yesterday at 3:47 PM.
#3693SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
I'm still more interested in the pet DPS for that parse than the silly steadyshot GCD rehash (I was the first reply there about your pet's crazy dps ).

What perplexes me the most is that only your pet's physical attacks seems to be unusually hard, its lightning breaths are all for fairly modest amounts.

And yes, using MS over steady is higher DPS, you can confirm this very easily by just setting up a rotation in Cheeky's using it - the problem though is that I've been unable to come up with a macro that uses it correctly - every one I've tried that does 3:2 normally then replaces a steady with a multishot when multi is available ends up messing up the 3:2 right after the multishot, spending a few cycles to get back on track, and ends up yielding about the same DPS as base 3:2 as a result. So basically while you're in the 1:1 region of haste, the multi taking priority gives you higher DPS, when you're in the 3:2 region it doesn't (at least not for my haste/latency/repeatRate combination).
#3694SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Leneson
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
I'm still more interested in the pet DPS for that parse than the silly steadyshot GCD rehash (I was the first reply there about your pet's crazy dps ).

What perplexes me the most is that only your pet's physical attacks seems to be unusually hard, its lightning breaths are all for fairly modest amounts.

And yes, using MS over steady is higher DPS, you can confirm this very easily by just setting up a rotation in Cheeky's using it - the problem though is that I've been unable to come up with a macro that uses it correctly - every one I've tried that does 3:2 normally then replaces a steady with a multishot when multi is available ends up messing up the 3:2 right after the multishot, spending a few cycles to get back on track, and ends up yielding about the same DPS as base 3:2 as a result. So basically while you're in the 1:1 region of haste, the multi taking priority gives you higher DPS, when you're in the 3:2 region it doesn't (at least not for my haste/latency/repeatRate combination).
Hahaha, always the pet dps . The people on the wow forums are basically calling me a huge fraud and telling me I faked these results for my epeen, although it's REALLY funny because I didn't. Heres what I can come up with on how my pet did so much fucking damage...

Feral Druid in group, Imp Judgment of the Crusader on the boss, Improved battle shout with solarian trinket, scroll of str and agi, enh shaman in group (so all that ap stacks by 10%), imp faire fire on the boss, improved hunters mark on the boss. There was also expose weakness, around 270 ap. This is ALL multiplied as far as I can tell by the Beast Tamers Shoulders 3% increased pet damage buff, making for some (as you can see) insane numbers. Maybe those shoulders scale stupidly well with that many buffs, better than any other item?

Last edited by Leneson : Yesterday at 6:58 PM.
#3695SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dendrah
Leneson,

I just checked your gear in the armory. Looks all nice.

I have 2 things you might wanna change in your next attempt thou.

Not only your pet gets the +3% hit. Also you so lose some hit and get some AP/crit/ignore armor instead.

Most buffs you descrip for your pet boost his physical dmg. Why not take a ravager and have those things also influence Gore?
#3696SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
Leneson
Originally Posted by Dendrah View Post
Leneson,

I just checked your gear in the armory. Looks all nice.

I have 2 things you might wanna change in your next attempt thou.

Not only your pet gets the +3% hit. Also you so lose some hit and get some AP/crit/ignore armor instead.

Most buffs you descrip for your pet boost his physical dmg. Why not take a ravager and have those things also influence Gore?
I do switch out gear...I wear my cloak of fiends and my exalted hyjal ring.......I just mostly use my armory gear because I dont always have an oomkin with me at all times...

I was thinking about using a ravager as well, I think I'll actually go tame one and use it and see what happens, thanks for the advice!

Edit: Even with ALL those buffs on cheeky's SS, it still says ravager comes out ahead by about 30 dps.....
Double Edit: When I change my pets buffs in the SS, it doesnt seems to change the avg damage values for gore and what such in the table at the pot of the pet tab.....do buffs still affect these in the end calculation?!

Gore
Rank 9
Min Damage 37
Max Damage 61
Average Damage 49
Gore Double Damage 50.00%
Regular Adjustment 213.44%
Total Adjustment 320.16%
Armor Mitigation 17.18%
Total Damage 129.93
Cooldown 1.5
Max DPS 86.62
Focus 25
Focus per Second 16.67
Damage per Focus 5.20

No where in there does it list anything scaling with AP....but with LB it does (at least with my AP)....I dont get it......
Here's the LB damage table in the SS....

Lightning Breath
Rank 6
Min Damage 99
Max Damage 113
Hunter RAP 2880
Ratio to LB spell dam 1.25%
Damage from RAP 15.48
Average Damage 121.48
Crit Chance 13.00%
Crit Damage 150.00%
Full Resist Chance 13.00%
Partial Resist Chance 5.14%
Crit/Resist Modifier 98.62%
Unleashed Fury 120.00%
Mood 125.00%
Ferocious Inspiration 102.99%
Hunter Racial 100.00%
Pet Family 110.00%
Adjustment 167.59%
Total Damage 203.59
Cooldown 1.5
Max DPS 135.73
Focus 50
Focus per Second 33.33
Damage per Focus 4.07


Who knows?!

Last edited by Leneson : Today at 7:51 AM.
#3701SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Bikiniwax
Originally Posted by Splint View Post
I have a Pet Macro Question.

I was wondering if anyone has a macro that will make my pet attack my target. I would like the macro make my pet dash to the target if it is up.

I've also been having an issue as to where the MA will tab target and sometimes tab onto a sheeped or CC target. Is there a way to add into the macro that if the target is CC'd and I accidently hit the attack macro that the pet will not attack the target?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

-Splint

/petattack [target=pettarget,noexists]
/stopmacro [target=pettarget,noexists]
/petfollow

Works for me.

Last edited by Bikiniwax : 05/20/08 at 11:56 PM.
#3702SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Nurit
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
Gore does not scale with ap.
LB does, but very very weak.

The only error I can see is: The spreadsheet does not add imp. Fearie Fire to LB's Hitchance.

edit: You're right.
sure, since 2.4 it does: Patchnotes

edit: ignore my post, i swapped gore and growl >:

Last edited by Nurit : 05/20/08 at 4:58 PM.
#3703SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Talithin
In regards to the legendary bow: Thori'dal the Stars' Fury.

I'm not sure how relevant this picture may be but it has apparently been mined from the Magtheridon-EU server tonight (after the opening of Kil'Jaeden's gate) and shows a newly itemized Thori'dal including a higher total dps and a more BM-friendly speed of 2.70.

Picture

Source

Plugging the bow into cheekys spread sheet(using standard tier 6 level gear with 0 dmg ammo) shows an increase of nearly 100 dps over the 3.00 bow which was previously thought to be the legendary bow.

This buff is surprisingly significant and finally makes the bow look like something worthy of the title 'legendary'.

Last edited by Talithin : 05/21/08 at 9:13 PM.
#3704SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2KraxisSingular
Sweet lord, that is one heck of a boost.

But then comes the question, what about our friendly neighbourhood Survs? This would obviously still be a weapon of certain value in upgrades, but honestly now it 'sucks' as much fo them as it did for us before.

Blizzard jumps between two stools instead of laying a plank between them. Something like the bow being made faster if the wielder had 5/5 in SS.

But at least it is now more worth of legendary than before, and for the vast majority of hunters it is perfect, whereas before it was the minority it fitted.
#3705SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Crydak
Now that we know that the legendary Bow has a 2.7 speed,we might start removing some haste gear out of our character planners.So our hunters can go for more armor penetration,for example.
#3706SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ferrari_13
*mistake
#3707SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Female Tauren
Gear question, I got Clutch of demise from Brutallus last night, which replaced the armor pen neck from Hyjal trash.

I had ~950 armor pen with the old neck, 4 piece T6, using 3:2 rotation with the Illidan bow with no other haste gears and a low 200 latency. I put the new neck into Cheeky's spread sheet and it showed a ~2 dps increase.

Does this seem right to everybody?
#3708SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2SpartanKillian
Without looking at your armory, that seems about right. Whenever you're working out how valuable ArPen is make sure you take into account -armor debuffs like Sunder and Faerie Fire.
#3709SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Gleithan
More pets to become viable in WotLK?

I saw the following in the WotLK thread regarding some pet changes in the alpha:

Hunter:
- Scare Beast's tooltip now shows the correct cast time.
- The pet ability Bite now has the same damage, focus cost and cooldown as Claw.
- Screech renamed Demoralizing Screech.
- Furious Howl's buff range increased to 20 yards.
- Shell Shield no longer reduces your turtle's attack speed.
- Steady Shot's bonus damage slightly reduced. Scaling unchanged.
With the bite change, it expands the number of pet families with a focus dump by a lot...it "can be learned by: Bats, Bears, Boars, Carrion Birds, Cats, Crocolisks, Dragonhawks, Gorillas, Hyenas, Nether Rays, Raptors, Ravagers, Serpents, Spiders, Tallstriders, Turtles, Warp Stalkers, Wind Serpents, Wolves" Granted, for the min/max crowd it will still probably be Ravager, Cat or Raptor as they remain the only families with a +10% DPS modifier (or perhaps a windserpent). But for people not on the bleeding edge, maybe a Hyena, Tallstrider or Nether Ray would work for them. Spiders would be a great choice as well (+7% DPS), if they got Dash (which they should).

With no cooldown, I think there would be no point in teaching a Ravager Bite anymore. There would definitely be no point in teaching it to a Cat or Raptor, since it would just alternate casts with the identical Claw (or never cast at all? I don't get the whole priority thing). Bite would probably cost a Windserpent of a lot of focus, reducing the number of Lightning Breath casts. Not training bite on these families would open up a few points for some passive stamina, armor or resistances as well.

Furious howl might deserve a second look as well, in that it is a lot easier/safer to shoot from 20 yards than 10, and if Wolves have a focus dump in the new bite they will put out more dps.

Could turtles be a legit tanking pet with this change to shell shield and no cooldown bite? The lack of dash would be annoying, but to solo an elite or something they could prove useful. Of course without another stable slot I don't see many people picking one up for such a specialized use.

I'm looking forward to what they come up with for the rest of the hunter class, but I am encouraged by these few pet changes so far.
#3710SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Female Tauren
Originally Posted by SpartanKillian View Post
Without looking at your armory, that seems about right. Whenever you're working out how valuable ArPen is make sure you take into account -armor debuffs like Sunder and Faerie Fire.
So with raid debuffs and some more armor pen upgrades, the Brut neck would eventually become a downgrade to the Hyjal neck?
#3711SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Squinky001
Windserpent Question

I've been trying to figure out what to do in regards to whether I should use a Windserpent or not. I know it largely depends on group composition, but for example; the next raid I'm scheduled for has only two shaman running in it, one is elemental and one is Resto. I'm unclear on whether there will be Stormstrike charges even up to be consumed by my WS rather than the Ele shaman. Am I correct in assuming that the mechanic is that an Enhancement Shaman puts up the Stormstrike? And if this is the case, would my using a WS then not affect the sole Ele shaman if we have no Enh shaman running that day?


On a relatively unrelated note, I've been told by a few people that Bristleblitz Striker is one of the best bows in the game. (At least that's available to us. We're just starting to poke at Kalegcos so no Golden Bows for us yet.) And plugging it into Cheeky's along with (granted somewhat limited) Dr. Boom tests, I cannot get BBS to pull ahead of my Crossbow of Relentless Strikes. For reference, I have 5/5 T6, Blade of the Harbingers and the haste ring from BT trash which brings my attack speed without haste procs to 1.93 with Crossbow (I've also not been lucky enough to get a DST yet). I've only done a small amount of testing on Dr. Boom, using both 3:2 and 1:1 macros for both Crossbow and BBS. The best DPS seemed to be from Crossbow with a 3:2. I'm assuming this is because of the passive haste I have, but I wanted to know if anyone else had similar experiences.

Thanks in advance for any responses.
#3712SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kash
Originally Posted by Squinky001 View Post
Am I correct in assuming that the mechanic is that an Enhancement Shaman puts up the Stormstrike? And if this is the case, would my using a WS then not affect the sole Ele shaman if we have no Enh shaman running that day?
Yes that's correct. Stormstrike increases the next two Nature spells that hit the target with an additional 20% damage. Your WS would benefit from an Enhancer. If you have an Elemental Shaman you should avoid using a WS, because his nature damage hits are much higher then your WS's Lightning Breath.

Originally Posted by Squinky001 View Post
I've only done a small amount of testing on Dr. Boom, using both 3:2 and 1:1 macros for both Crossbow and BBS. The best DPS seemed to be from Crossbow with a 3:2. I'm assuming this is because of the passive haste I have, but I wanted to know if anyone else had similar experiences.

Thanks in advance for any responses.
"the only statistics you can trust are those you falsified yourself"
Winston Churchill
#3713SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
One thing to note, depending of course on gear, skill, etc, if you have an elemental shaman, enhancement shaman, and 2 bm hunters, its often still better for the hunters to both use a WS, however it'd have to be some crazy gear imbalance to make 1 wind serpent worth using.
#3714SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Squinky001
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
One thing to note, depending of course on gear, skill, etc, if you have an elemental shaman, enhancement shaman, and 2 bm hunters, its often still better for the hunters to both use a WS, however it'd have to be some crazy gear imbalance to make 1 wind serpent worth using.
Well, my question was more about what happens when there is only an Elemental shaman, and no Enhancement shaman. Are there still stormstrike charges to be eaten if no enhancement shaman is there? Is the WS still cutting into the Elemental shaman's DPS with no enhancement shaman? The other BM hunter in the group usually runs with a cat (and our third hunter is Marks and uses a cat as well, though we usually only run with one or two hunters per raid) so it comes down to me not using the WS if it's going to affect the elemental shaman.

If the lack of the enhancement shaman means that I can safely use my Windserpent then it'll just be a matter of checking the raid composition before the raid to see which pet I should bring. If it doesn't, then.. well, I have a cool WS for five-mans or something. ^^; (Or I go and re-tame a ravager in place of the WS, since I can't be parted with my two tigers.)
#3715SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Talithin
Stormstrike is an ability used only by enhancement shamen so if there isn't one in the raid, the debuff charges will not be on the mob your pet is attacking.
#3716SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Squinky001
Originally Posted by Talithin View Post
Stormstrike is an ability used only by enhancement shamen so if there isn't one in the raid, the debuff charges will not be on the mob your pet is attacking.
Ok, thank you very much! (And, as you can tell, I know very little about shaman. ^^; )
#3717SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Runningelk
LW vs. Enchanting

OK. Here's the situation. My guild is 3/5 Hyjal and 1/9 BT. We're not a hard core guild by any stretch of the imagination, but we do OK. I'm the guild JC so I won't be dropping that but my other profession is "in play". I picked up enchanting specifically for the +4 stats to ring hoping that the WotLK enchants would wow me. I have seen that +40 AP ring enchants will be available, but I'm not certain if that's enough of a benefit to keep enchanting, or if I should go LW for the drums. Chances are there might only be one other person who has the drums in my raid groups... but most of the time I'd be alone.

What do you think? Money is not a problem. Are the drums worth the switch?
#3718SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
Yes. Skills are cheap to level, you can level up enchanting again when you get some really good lvl 80 rings.
#3719SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Intermission
Drums are many times better than any other raiding profession for any class in the game, regardless of how many or how few drummers you have in your group.

If money isn't a concern (LW is bloody cheap to level anyway, less than 300g on my server to get to 350), I recommend LW. Dont even think about WOTLK professions yet. You're likely to drop whatever you have for the best raid benefit then anyway. All the mages/priests/locks with LW will probably drop LW and pick up tailoring + whatever the new best early-expansion raid profession is, assuming drums get nurfed (which surely they would have to).
#3720SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2alienangel
Originally Posted by Kash View Post
Yes If you have an Elemental Shaman you should avoid using a WS, because his nature damage hits are much higher then your WS's Lightning Breath.
Please don't say things like this to people asking for advice without any supporting arguments >.> There's a whole thread about just this argument, and the best conclusion it could come to was that if you have more than one hunter using windserpents, they should probably keep using the windserpents regardless of what it does to elemental shamans, but if there's only one hunter using a windserpent it's probably better to have him switch to something else given an equally geared elemental shaman.
#3721SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2zeryel
question .. when does armor ignore become more valuable then other stats(agi/ap/crit)
i know armor ignore is godsend for rogues/warrs but at what "magical" number would we start seeing an upgrade?

ive been trying to get cheeky to work but it just shows ridiculous numbers so if anyone else knows, please help.

i also had another question regarding Agility. i know its important to stack, but when does it show diminishing returns as BM over stacking crit rating? ive seen other hunters stacking crit / ap gems instead of agi and creeping up to my dps in raids.

i know this might not be the perfect place also - but at what agi can one switch to surv and still maintain decent dps while benefiting the raid?
#3722SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
There are no magical numbers. Armor pen depends on what you're giving up to get it and how much of other stats you have. The only way to figure this out is a spread sheet or doing all the math yourself from scratch. That actually is the answer for most of your questions.

The ap/crit gems are mostly to make yellow gem socket bonuses work when you're hit capped and thus don't need hti/agi gems.
#3723SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by zeryel View Post
i know this might not be the perfect place also - but at what agi can one switch to surv and still maintain decent dps while benefiting the raid?
A = Your personal DPS as BM
B = Your personal DPS as SV
C = (The strength of your expose weakness debuff (modified for uptime))*.3*(number of physical DPS in your raid)

When B + C > A it's time to make the switch to survival.
#3724SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
Don't forget some magical not readily quantifiable benefit of increased tank threat from your expose.
#3725SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Melkunie
- Steady Shot's bonus damage slightly reduced. Scaling unchanged.
preparation for (the return of) Steady Shot Rank 2?
#3726SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sandrielle
Originally Posted by Sarutobi View Post
A = Your personal DPS as BM
B = Your personal DPS as SV
C = (The strength of your expose weakness debuff (modified for uptime))*.3*(number of physical DPS in your raid)

When B + C > A it's time to make the switch to survival.
as lairpie posted, the additional tank threat will help cause some casters cap will be higher and thus more dmg.

i would personally add Improved Hunters Mark, cause i havent seen many BM hunters skilling it and if your raid would be without IHM if you are not SV, you can safely add that as well. btw, just add that to the strength of your EW debuff.
#3727SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dendrah
Imp HM is a must to BM hunters more then to Surv hunters imho...

Your pet is 30-40% of your dmg. Giving him 110 extra AP can never hurt.

Missing efficiency? Well you got mana oils and magebloodpotions to make up for that. And you can swing some more pots.
Still not enough? Then the fight is not a DPS race and you can safely turn on viper aspect and keep the potion CD for your HP's. (Archimonde, Mother,...)
#3728SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Omegatron
Originally Posted by Dendrah View Post
Imp HM is a must to BM hunters more then to Surv hunters imho...

Your pet is 30-40% of your dmg. Giving him 110 extra AP can never hurt.

Missing efficiency? Well you got mana oils and magebloodpotions to make up for that. And you can swing some more pots.
Still not enough? Then the fight is not a DPS race and you can safely turn on viper aspect and keep the potion CD for your HP's. (Archimonde, Mother,...)
What my pet damage is should be 30 or 40% of my damage?

Look at this. Omegatron - WWS

Its nothing special but my pet damage was about 20% of my damage. Where do you get this 30 or 40% numbers, I want to know what they are doing. Or did you pull that out of your magic hat?
#3729SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Teldra
Originally Posted by Omegatron View Post
What my pet damage is should be 30 or 40% of my damage?

Look at this. Omegatron - WWS

Its nothing special but my pet damage was about 20% of my damage. Where do you get this 30 or 40% numbers, I want to know what they are doing. Or did you pull that out of your magic hat?
My magic hat, which I assure you is an excellent color of black and quite shiny , states that on average my pet has been doing about 33% of my total damage. Now I haven't actually averaged this mathematically, but rather from what I remember of the WWS reports where I was checking on this very thing. It's been some time since I've done this, so the ratio may have changed. I'll have to check again since now I'm curious if it's the same of not.
#3730SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
Your pet did spend 5404-5150=254 seconds = 5% of the time you were attacking that it wasn't. That's probably not uncommon, but especially if you are often threat capped, your pet could often spend more time attacking than you, so that could be a little bit of difference.

You don't have imp HM, perhaps someone else does, but there's another small amount.

For several of the boss fights your pet is a bit higher than that.

You don't have bite trained which in theory means you lose a small chunk of pet dps.

Haste and armor pen don't help your pet at all outside of a few more GFTT procs. A hunter with similar gear but without haste or armor pen would see more pet damage compared to their own. Not having the steady shot set bonus would be a big help to comparative pet dps as well.

You didn't have a shaman. Many guilds are putting a resto shaman with imp SoE and GoA in with their feral druid and hunters group. This means your pet didn't have SoE and also that your pet didn't spend time with bestial wrath and heroism up which is a huge dps boost for the pet along with the hunters.

None of those things make a huge difference but combined they could definitely add up to a decent chunk more pet damage.
#3731SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dendrah
Well Lairpie made the point already half clear. I normally have a feral druid in my party as well as a fury warrior. His shouts add to my pet's DPS. I have the pet dmg shoulders too. Your pet influence depends on your party and equipment as well as your own treat cap. I have seen moments (rare but real) where my pet actually was nr 5 or 6 on treat meter with growl deactivated.

Quick target switching and lots of dash help too.
#3732SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Yatha
How important is the T6 4 piece bonus?

I am asking because after getting the helm, gloves and shoulders, my guild is now working on The Council. I want the bonus, but it seems that the T6 pants are just not worth the DKP. Well, in my case, the GP as my guild uses EPGP. So, do I get the bonus as fast as possible, or do I wait until we down Illidan and grab the chest. Be it known that my guild has horrible luck on the Bow Stitched (none have dropped) and we are only running MH every other week on off nights.

Where should I be?

Me and our other BM hunter typically lead on raw DPS. We have a good competition going and push each other well. I am wondering though, if our numbers are where they should be. I use 2 different bosses to judge the progress of our damage. I like to use TG as a gauge for us only because you can simply stand there and let loose with out moving. We will both sustain about 1700 DPS through the entire fight if we don’t get ghosted. That usually spikes out at 1900 after our first BW/Trinket pop but then evens out after most haste procs are gone.

Am I stupid for not being a LW?

We have just 1 of our 3 hunters (the survival hunter) popping Drums during bosses. I wont dispute the validity of drums in a hunter group, but what I am wondering is, am I selling myself and my guild short, by not having drums of my own? We are not “Hardcore”, we only raid 3 nights a week, but we do want to be inside Sunwell some time before the next expansion.

Thanks in advance for any responses to my questions.
#3733SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
If you're going to take the pants, should definitely get leatherworking for drums and the sunwell chest. Then if you get lucky enough to get bowstitched eventually, you can use t6 bracers, shoulders, gloves, helm for the 4pc. Either way, I would get the bonus asap.

On TG last night we put our MT into the hunter group to see what kind of threat we could get for him with me and another BM hunter, feral druid, resto shaman and for one of the first times we didn't have all of our good damagers sitting at 120% threat for 1/2 the fight, was a nice change. Between 2 FIs, SoE, GoA (i know windfury would be better for threat, but screw that, I only get to play my hunter once in a while (resto druid main) I wanted GoA), lotp, heroism pretty early, and 3 leather workers, his threat was way higher than normal.

What group setups are you using that 1700 dps is one of your top damagers? No enh shaman for the melee and they're not leatherworkers either? I know last night on TG I did a bit over 2k dps with basically all badge and pvp gear (bt crafted shoulders, and just got the ring last night, everything else is quite a bit lower). And that was with screwing up and using rapid fire in a random time where all my other haste procs had dropped off because I didn't think the fight would last long enough to use BW again, but it just barely did. Having timed RF with BW would have been a pretty significant upgrade. Just using that as an example of how powerful drum rotations can be.
#3734SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2yarikh
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
On TG last night we put our MT into the hunter group to see what kind of threat we could get for him with me and another BM hunter, feral druid, resto shaman and for one of the first times we didn't have all of our good damagers sitting at 120% threat for 1/2 the fight, was a nice change. Between 2 FIs, SoE, GoA (i know windfury would be better for threat, but screw that,
Tell your shaman to learn how to twist wf/goa!
#3735SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2orcsgotbooty
Originally Posted by yarikh View Post
Tell your shaman to learn how to twist wf/goa!
Making a resto shaman twist? Our enhance twists, but I think its better to let the restos keep their gcds for heals beyond dropping totems normally.
#3736SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
Yeah, we already stole his normal devo, and 2 tree auras, I don't think having the shaman twising instead of healing is really a good idea. Though our enh shaman does need to twist more, that just doesn't help me.
#3737SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dendrah
To Yatha:

4 pieces of T6 is worth it... while using a 3:2 or 1:1 rotation minimum 50% of your shots are steadyshots.
Let's take a perfect 1:1 rotation and steady and normal shots doing equal dmg. Then the 4T6 bonus gives you 5% more dmg... Is there any other item you can think of that would give you such an upgrade? No the epixx bow from KJ does not count.
Don't throw away the stuff you wear now. Keep it for time where you can grab other parts of the T6 set.

Considering leatherworking...
I dropped my herbalism and picked up leatherworking. I got in one day up to near 350 (347-348 or so atm) and started using the first drums. They already upgrade my and my parties DPS. The haste drums will be even a bigger upgrade.
If you have to drop enchanting knowing all important enchants or such for it then don't. If you have to drop a gathering skill then do and get the gathering on an alt or just buy your materials.
#3738SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2khel
There is a huge misunderstanding that it seems most hunters are unaware of with the 3:2 macro...I keep seeing people saying that if you get quickshots up that it turns into a 1:1. This is simply not true in most situations, unless you are not spamming the macro fast enough. The 3:2 macro will continue to do a 3:2 shot rotation with 'perfect' macro spam until your autoshot cast time drops to 1.5s or faster. The reason most people find that they are getting a 1:1 shot rotation with quickshots up is because of macro-spam frequency.

If you use a g15, set it to spam 20x+ per second, then you can see this more clearly.

Let's use the badge bow for example, 2.8 speed, with no haste on gear. Normal autoshot frequency is 2.03s (SS cast time 1.09s), and with quickshots active it becomes 1.76s (SS cast time 0.95s).

Without Quickshots:
0.00s - Steady Shot begins cast
1.09s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
1.50s - GCD completes...shot already in progress
1.59s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast
2.68s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot is not ready yet (not until 3.62s)
3.09s - GCD completes, Auto Shot not ready (until 3.12s), so Steady Shot begins cast
4.18s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
4.59s - GCD completes...shot already in progress
4.68s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast
Giving the 3:2 that you would expect

With Quickshots:
0.00s - Steady Shot begins cast
0.95s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
1.45s - Auto Shot fires
1.50s - GCD completes, Auto Shot not ready, so Steady Shot begins cast
2.45s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot not ready (until 2.71s) so Steady Shot begins cast
3.40s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
3.90s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast

This is with 'perfect' macro spam and you still get a 3:2 rotation with quickshots and a 2.8 speed weapon. It only goes to 1:1 if you are say...0.1s late starting the next Steady Shot at the 1.50s mark, and another delay at the 2.45s mark, to allow Auto Shot to be available rather than the 2nd Steady Shot.
#3739SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Littlehelper
Originally Posted by khel View Post
Without Quickshots:
0.00s - Steady Shot begins cast
1.09s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
1.50s - GCD completes...shot already in progress
1.59s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast
2.68s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot is not ready yet (not until 3.62s)
3.09s - GCD completes, Auto Shot not ready (until 3.12s), so Steady Shot begins cast
4.18s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
4.59s - GCD completes...shot already in progress
4.68s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast
Giving the 3:2 that you would expect
This is a 1:2 Rotation. It's Steady-> Auto -> Steady -> Steady -> Auto -> Steady -> repeat
Because the Steady Shot at the end is not in the same situation as the first one you would always have 2 Steadys between your Autoshots. If you don't account for the idea that the GCD of the Steady is started before the cast itself, you will not be able to model a 3:2 Rotation(at least with a Steadycasttime above 1.0).

But your right that the 3:2-macro doesn't switch to a 1:1 as soon as it would be appropriate (afaik).
#3740SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Indora
There are a few mistakes, khel:

"1.09s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
1.59s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast"

- auto shot casttime is reduced by haste, too.
It's hard to proof, but using this in formulas have shown more precise results.

"1.50s - GCD completes...shot already in progress"

The second GCD doesn't start at 1.5.
On average, it starts at 1.5 + average Spamspeed.

Using a G15 with 20 clicks / second, your Spamspeed is:
1 / 20 / 2 = 0.025s

"1.59s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast
3.09s - GCD completes, Auto Shot not ready (until 3.12s), so Steady Shot begins cast"

The GCD already completes at 3.0 (assuming a Spamspeed of 0s).
Starting a shot (It doesn't matter which one) while your auto shot is still casting starts the GCD, while your steady shot is waiting until the autoshots ends to begin casting.


Correct the mistakes in your calculation and calculate more then 2 auto shot intervals.
You are right, there isn't a 1:1 rotation at a speed of 1.75s...
Instead you become a 4:3 or maybe 5:4 rotation:

auto
steady
steady
auto
steady
auto
steady
auto
steady

This rotation is a huge dps boost compared to a 3:2 rotation.

Last edited by Indora : 05/29/08 at 7:03 AM.
#3741SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2khel
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
- auto shot casttime is reduced by haste, too.
It's hard to proof, but using this in formulas have shown more precise results.
You mean to tell me that autoshot doesn't have a 0.5s cast time? Um...I have never seen or heard any evidence to indicate this. Do you have any sources? If this was true then a BM specced hunter would have an autoshot cast time of 0.36s without quickshots up, which I really doubt... You may want to doublecheck your sources here.

Originally Posted by Indora View Post
"1.50s - GCD completes...shot already in progress"

The second GCD doesn't start at 1.5.
On average, it starts at 1.5 + average Spamspeed.
The GCD starts as soon as Steady Shot begins to cast, and ends 1.5s later. Spam speed only changes how soon your shots can begin to fire once they are available to use.

Originally Posted by Littlehelper View Post
If you don't account for the idea that the GCD of the Steady is started before the cast itself, you will not be able to model a 3:2 Rotation(at least with a Steadycasttime above 1.0).

But your right that the 3:2-macro doesn't switch to a 1:1 as soon as it would be appropriate (afaik).
Without Quickshots (2.03s Autos, SS cast time 1.09s):
0.00s - Steady Shot begins cast
1.09s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
1.50s - GCD completes
1.59s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast
2.68s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot not ready (until 3.62s)
3.09s - GCD completes, Auto Shot not ready (until 3.12s), so Steady Shot begins cast
4.18s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
4.59s - GCD completes
4.68s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast
5.77s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot not ready (until 6.71s)
6.18s - GCD completes, Steady Shot begins cast
7.27s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins to cast
7.68s - GCD completes
7.77s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins to cast
8.86s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot not ready (until 9.30s)
9.27s - GCD completes, Steady Shot begins to cast
10.36s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins to cast
10.77s - GCD completes
10.86s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins to cast
11.95s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot not ready (until 12.39s)
12.36s - GCD completes

Ah I should have continued it further...so in this case it is even worse to just mindlessly spam the "3:2" macro. I am not including spamspeed because I wanted to model the idea first and then make it practical afterwards...you could set your g15 to spam 100x per second instead of 20 if your computer could handle it. So even with a 2.8 speed weapon you need some passive haste on gear, or at least a 0.03s delay on your spamspeed to get a 3:2 steady:auto rotation. I expect that with 3.0 speed weapons it would be very dangerous to use this 3:2 macro with a fast spam speed unless you have at least 100+ haste or so to get to a speed where a 3:2 steady:auto rotation is done instead of 2:1 steady:auto.

Or another option would be to adjust your spam speed...which isn't very practical if you are doing it manually. Setting a g15 to spam 10x per second (every 0.1s) instead of 30x (every 0.03s) or more could totally change your shot rotation.
#3742SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2alienangel
Two things Khel:

1. Autoshot's cast-time is definitely not locked in at 0.5. I don't know of anyone coming up with an actual model of what does affect it, but Midnight and others did play with the stat-duping bug on PTR to stack massive amounts of haste, and observed autoshot firing at higher frequency than 2Hz (wow, we should talk about shot frequency in hertz more often!)

2. Even if spamming a /cast/cast macro faster forces 3:2 to persist while under quickshots/dst instead of dropping to 1:1, why would you want to? On the spreadsheet I lose DPS by making myself do 3:2 when under quickshots instead of doing just 1:1. This will obviously vary depending on the hunter's latency, attackspeed and other stats, but I suspect for most 1:1 while hasted will still yeild higher dps on the spreadsheet, so they don't need to worry about forcing 3:2 while hasted.
#3743SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Energy
Originally Posted by khel View Post
With Quickshots:
0.00s - Steady Shot begins cast
0.95s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
1.45s - Auto Shot fires
1.50s - GCD completes, Auto Shot not ready, so Steady Shot begins cast
2.45s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot not ready (until 2.71s) so Steady Shot begins cast
3.40s - Steady Shot fires, Auto Shot begins cast
3.90s - Auto Shot fires, Steady Shot begins cast

At 2.45s you begin casting a Steady Shot according to you but in reality your GCD hasn't completed yet so it is impossible to start steady here.
#3744SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Praxx
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
2. Even if spamming a /cast/cast macro faster forces 3:2 to persist while under quickshots/dst instead of dropping to 1:1, why would you want to? On the spreadsheet I lose DPS by making myself do 3:2 when under quickshots instead of doing just 1:1. This will obviously vary depending on the hunter's latency, attackspeed and other stats, but I suspect for most 1:1 while hasted will still yeild higher dps on the spreadsheet, so they don't need to worry about forcing 3:2 while hasted.
I would agree with this. When Rapid fire is up the 3:2 macro turns into a 3:3 (1:1) because the time between autos has been compressed more than the steady shot cast time. This allows the auto shot that is normally clipped in the 3:2 rotation to fire.
#3745SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2zeryel
wanted to start a new discussion regarding mp5. is it viable at all to have 2 1h's with 30 intel and a 2h with agi enchant.
i currently run 2 breeching comets. was lookin forward to getting trollbane from za and making that my hawk weapon and the 2 1h's as my viper weapon.

is it worth doing this like in arenas? if anyone has ever tried this, please let me know how things worked out.
there hvnt been many times when ive run out of mana in a fight but there are times when i hold back on BW till a pot is up just so i dont exhaust mana too much.

also had another question regarding cheeky's. ive seen that using armor ignore weapons dosnt raise my dps that much but ive seen a lil differnt. anyone know how accurate cheeky's really is in this respect?
#3746SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kierran
Originally Posted by zeryel View Post
is it viable at all to have 2 1h's with 30 intel and a 2h with agi enchant.
i currently run 2 breeching comets. was lookin forward to getting trollbane from za and making that my hawk weapon and the 2 1h's as my viper weapon.

is it worth doing this like in arenas? if anyone has ever tried this, please let me know how things worked out.
I take my two +30 Int arena 1-handers with me to raids for emergency use. Between shadow priests, judged wisdom, and fel mana pots I rarely need to switch to Viper, but for those times when mana becomes an issue, the 1-handers are useful to have around. Just set up a macro to make switching between the weapons coincide with switching between the aspects:
/castsequence Aspect of the Viper, Aspect of the Hawk
/equip Gladiator's Cleaver (main hand)
/equip Gladiator's Hacker (off hand) 
/equip Vengeful Gladiator's Waraxe
This should toggle between the two cases on each button press.

Last edited by Kierran : Yesterday at 11:32 AM. Reason: Original macro was incorrect
#3747SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2ObservingLife
Just a heads up: They've stated clearly that using a G15 or software program to automate many keypresses while holding down the button is against the ToU.
#3748SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lairpie
Originally Posted by ObservingLife View Post
Just a heads up: They've stated clearly that using a G15 or software program to automate many keypresses while holding down the button is against the ToU.
Where? I imagine a lot of us would like to see that, or rather not like to see it, but you know what I mean.
#3749SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Cranch
Originally Posted by lairpie View Post
Where? I imagine a lot of us would like to see that, or rather not like to see it, but you know what I mean.
See WoW Forums -> Seeking Blue clarification: key repeating (scroll down to the Blizzard poster who unequivocally says you may not hold down a key to spam your shot macro.)

Presumably, Warden has now been modified to check for a G15 driver, and to see if the driver was programmed to press a shot macro key repeatedly. Otherwise, it would be hard to distinguish the disallowed events from someone accurately pressing keys over time.

It's unfortunate that BM hunters can't maximize their dps without pressing a large number of keys in a short period of time, with most of the keys having no effect.

Last edited by Cranch : 05/29/08 at 7:13 PM. Reason: added emphasis
#3750SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2pridehunter
I have a quick question. I have had a couple hunters ask me about a hybrid MM Surv build. Apperently they have been told that with enough haste it puts out more dps then BM. IS this in fact true i have not seen this posted anywhere yet and am curious what the actuall numbers are.
#3751SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Cranch
Originally Posted by pridehunter View Post
I have a quick question. I have had a couple hunters ask me about a hybrid MM Surv build. Apperently they have been told that with enough haste it puts out more dps then BM. IS this in fact true i have not seen this posted anywhere yet and am curious what the actuall numbers are.
Since survival builds have more rap and crit than BM builds with the same gear, and since haste has less of an effect on BM builds than survival builds, it stands to reason that it may be possible that a survival build with sufficient haste will have more dps than a BM build (with the same gear.) However, that doesn't imply that the highest possible dps with survival exceeds the highest possible dps with BM, when allowing different gear.
#3752SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2pridehunter
Thats pretty much what i thought I just wanted to be sure. Mostly Because one of the hunters in my guild has gone that way from bm and i didnt want to say WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING. Just wanted to help him be the best hunter he could be no matter the spec
#3753SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rane
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
See WoW Forums -> Seeking Blue clarification: key repeating (scroll down to the Blizzard poster who unequivocally says you may not hold down a key to spam your shot macro.)
Considering I haven't seen an uproar in the Hunter community about mass hunter bans (and I doubt the type of "hunters" that did get banned would speak up on the forums), nor have I myself received any action for this kind of behaviour even though I've been using it for well over 3 months, I'd take this with a grain of salt.

My faith in the Blizzard AA dudes suggest they do look a bit further than just "he spammed a key a lot -> ban", and my typing in raidchat and manually clicking some consumables makes it pretty obvious I'm not botting either. More likely the above is just to cover their bases because some people will try to dispute their bans that way if they didn't.
#3754SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2ItadaN
Hey guys, I am seeking some input regarding my current gear.

I am currently using a 3:2 shot rotation, weaving in arcane and multi shots whenever possible.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Just wondering whether this is the best possible dps that I can dish out.

WWS:Wow Web Stats

Feel free to leave comments. Thanks in advance.
#3755SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Lancerx
Multi Box BM Hunter question

Hi,

New to forum and been loving the amount of information available. I did allot of research and decided to post in hopes someone could help me with a situation im in, If this has been answered im sorry I could not find it. I run five accounts at once and currently play five hunters. I am having a hard time trying to figure out if it would be better dps in the long run having five BM hunters or 4 BM and 1Marks. I know the trueshot should add about 34dps give or take, but I know also that I would then be losing ferocious inspiration which is up about 97% of the time and also serpents swiftness. I thought about maybe going 3 BM, 1 Marks and 1 Surv but quickly decided that expose armor could not compare to the dps I would lose in BM. I am really thinking that 5xbm would be better dps but I am really not sure. I would love to hear some thought and opinions on the matter I as regard this community's opinions in high regard. Thanks in advance for your help.
#3756SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cranch
Originally Posted by Lancerx View Post
Hi,

New to forum and been loving the amount of information available. I did allot of research and decided to post in hopes someone could help me with a situation im in, If this has been answered im sorry I could not find it. I run five accounts at once and currently play five hunters. I am having a hard time trying to figure out if it would be better dps in the long run having five BM hunters or 4 BM and 1Marks. I know the trueshot should add about 34dps give or take, but I know also that I would then be losing ferocious inspiration which is up about 97% of the time and also serpents swiftness. I thought about maybe going 3 BM, 1 Marks and 1 Surv but quickly decided that expose armor could not compare to the dps I would lose in BM. I am really thinking that 5xbm would be better dps but I am really not sure. I would love to hear some thought and opinions on the matter I as regard this community's opinions in high regard. Thanks in advance for your help.
That's an interesting question. I'll use my gear to estimate the numbers (4 x T5.) I'm using Cheeky's spreadsheet, but with all raid buffs turned off (but using Major Agility and Warp Burgers.) I also turned off FI so I could stack it myself.

1 BM = 1200 dps 1 Surv = 1000 dps

5 BM x 5 FI (uptime 100% to keep it simple) = 1200 x 5 x 1.15 = 6900 dps

(4 BM (EW) + 1 Surv(EW)) x (4 FI ) = (4 x 1250 + 1050) x 1.12 = 6776 dps (assuming 220 rap from EW)

Since TSA rap < EW rap, there's no point in trying that.

A more accurate analysis would take into account that FI isn't up anywhere near 100% of the time, despite the theoretical expected uptime (and same for EW.) Since FI is a 3% damage bonus, whereas EW is about a 4-5% damage bonus, but Survival hunters have less dps, it's probably reasonable to conclude it's a wash in practice, and you should do what works for you best in terms of being able to control the players.

Last edited by Cranch : Yesterday at 1:18 AM.
#3757SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cranch
Originally Posted by Rane View Post
Considering I haven't seen an uproar in the Hunter community about mass hunter bans (and I doubt the type of "hunters" that did get banned would speak up on the forums), nor have I myself received any action for this kind of behaviour even though I've been using it for well over 3 months, I'd take this with a grain of salt.

My faith in the Blizzard AA dudes suggest they do look a bit further than just "he spammed a key a lot -> ban", and my typing in raidchat and manually clicking some consumables makes it pretty obvious I'm not botting either. More likely the above is just to cover their bases because some people will try to dispute their bans that way if they didn't.
Understood, but I'd still prefer if there was a way to get the same effect without violating the explicitly-interpreted ToS.

It seems reasonable to bind, say F1 to F4 to 2 separate macros and just "play the piano" with the 4 keys to spam the macros at a finger rate that is 1/4 what it would have to be otherwise. (i.e, just hit the keys F1,F2,F3,F4 in that order with 4 fingers one after another.) I'll experiment with this tomorrow. One possibility is steady is in one macro and auto is in the other. Another is that they are both the same macro. Should be interesting!

I'll also try to see if there's any way at all I can press just 1 key per second, roughly, and still get the same dps (I've got both Quartz and Sorren's shot timer installed.) I'd also be interested in exact shot strategies that people use that manually time their shots (i.e., are you actually able to maintain a 3:2 rotation when no haste effects are in place?)

We should probably continue this discussion in the Shot Rotation thread.
#3758SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lancerx
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
That's an interesting question. I'll use my gear to estimate the numbers (4 x T5.) I'm using Cheeky's spreadsheet, but with all raid buffs turned off (but using Major Agility and Warp Burgers.) I also turned off FI so I could stack it myself.

1 BM = 1200 dps 1 Surv = 1000 dps

5 BM x 5 FI (uptime 100% to keep it simple) = 1200 x 5 x 1.15 = 6900 dps

(4 BM (EW) + 1 Surv(EW)) x (4 FI ) = (4 x 1250 + 1050) x 1.12 = 6776 dps (assuming 220 rap from EW)

Since TSA rap < EW rap, there's no point in trying that.

A more accurate analysis would take into account that FI isn't up anywhere near 100% of the time, despite the theoretical expected uptime (and same for EW.) Since FI is a 3% damage bonus, whereas EW is about a 4-5% damage bonus, but Survival hunters have less dps, it's probably reasonable to conclude it's a wash in practice, and you should do what works for you best in terms of being able to control the players.

Thats Awesome bro. I would love to know how you came up with this math. I was pretty sure that EW was not as good as FI but what I was asking and really want to know is If I should make 1 of the 5 hunters Markmans for True Shot Aura or have all 5 BM for 5xFI??? thanks in advance.
#3759SourcePosted on <=2.0.0jurgen
Originally Posted by Lancerx View Post
Thats Awesome bro. I would love to know how you came up with this math. I was pretty sure that EW was not as good as FI but what I was asking and really want to know is If I should make 1 of the 5 hunters Markmans for True Shot Aura or have all 5 BM for 5xFI??? thanks in advance.
If you actually read the quote you can see where he says TSA < EW, answering your question...
#3760SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lancerx
Originally Posted by jurgen View Post
If you actually read the quote you can see where he says TSA < EW, answering your question...
Yea man im sorry I feel dumb and should. I have not been to sleep and took me a while to get that. Thanks again Cranch for your awesomeness and help. And thanks Jurgen for pointing out my stupidity , Ima go get some sleep now, this forum is so awesome I am learning so much researching here. Thanks everyone.
#3761SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hink
Macro spamming alternatives

Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
Presumably, Warden has now been modified to check for a G15 driver, and to see if the driver was programmed to press a shot macro key repeatedly. Otherwise, it would be hard to distinguish the disallowed events from someone accurately pressing keys over time.

It's unfortunate that BM hunters can't maximize their dps without pressing a large number of keys in a short period of time, with most of the keys having no effect.
I've been using AutoHotKey for quite a while, and this seems like bad news. However, AHK can compile it's scripts, so it would be harder for Warden to check for a particular process, since the compiled executables will differ from script to script. Making your script wait for a random interval between keystrokes might be useful too:

#HotkeyInterval 2000
#MaxhotkeysPerInterval 70
$2::
Loop
{
	if not GetKeyState("2", "P")
	break
	Send 2
	Random, stime, 40, 60
	Sleep, stime
}
return
This will spam the "2" key at about 20Hz, but the individual waiting periods between keystrokes will vary.

And, if all else fails, the technically inclined could fashion an external USB keyboard type device that would spam the steady macro. Whoever is comfortable with a soldering gun and C programming could easily tweak something like HIDKeys into a steady-shot-spamming-footpedal
#3762SourcePosted on <=2.0.0KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
See WoW Forums -> Seeking Blue clarification: key repeating (scroll down to the Blizzard poster who unequivocally says you may not hold down a key to spam your shot macro.)

Presumably, Warden has now been modified to check for a G15 driver, and to see if the driver was programmed to press a shot macro key repeatedly. Otherwise, it would be hard to distinguish the disallowed events from someone accurately pressing keys over time.

It's unfortunate that BM hunters can't maximize their dps without pressing a large number of keys in a short period of time, with most of the keys having no effect.
It is more unfortunate that Blizzard ban and then inform us. Luckily i don't have a G15, but I was close to buying one for this reason. For years they have allowed this and never said a word or a warning. That isn't terribly great form. Perhaps people could have read through the big screen of text, but really a more solid warning would have cost Blizzard nothing and allowed all those normal players to not get banned, and yes I have heard of people getting banned, mostly they just settle with moving on as they hit a brick wall emailing. Meh...

Remember if you are banned from the game you can't post on the forum either.

Last edited by KraxisSingular : Yesterday at 9:28 AM.
#3763SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lancerx
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
It is more unfortunate that Blizzard ban and then inform us. Luckily i don't have a G15, but I was close to buying one for this reason. For years they have allowed this and never said a word or a warning. That isn't terribly great form. Perhaps people could have read through the big screen of text, but really a more solid warning would have cost Blizzard nothing and allowed all those normal players to not get banned, and yes I have heard of people getting banned, mostly they just settle with moving on as they hit a brick wall emailing. Meh...

Remember if you are banned from the game you can't post on the forum either.
I had no idea this could happen. I use a Nostrom N52 gamepad because I multi box running 5 clients on one machine. I use it because of the fact I have to use 1000's of macros in game. I use no automation like that but I do set my keys to turbo. This means basicly instead of having to press my power over and over I can just hold down a key and it fires it over and over on turbo. I use all my keys like this. I hope that is not a problem. I dont see any advantage form doing it as I am not using any macro's or anything. What do you all think?
#3764SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Teldra
I don't see any difference in binding a n52 or G15 key to W and holding it down to run forward, or assigning a macro to a specific key and having that key bound and held down. I mean honestly, are you going to wack your G15 "move forward" button once for every step you take, or do you just hold it down to move forward? I can see them getting upset if you're using software/hardware that allows custom scrips, but if you're simply replicating a single keypress while using the in-game macro system?
#3765SourcePosted on <=2.0.0KraxisSingular
Well in the thread they differenciate between moving and casting because the game makes the differenciation. The game understands and performs the 'lazy' hold for moving, but won't allow it for other stuff (as you will quickly notice when you play the first time, you can't just hold down the button for your cast attacks). So when you circumvent that (and don't require to press the button for ever action, aside from moving) then you have done some automation. And that they can, and apparently will ban people for.

I suggest you just get rid of these things. Risking the loss is not worth it when you can still manage otherwise. Personally I have any action that requires spam bound to my mousewheel up and down. Makes for an easy lazy moving one finger backwards and forwards a little.
#3766SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kurkis
I personally look at it like this. You can't tell the guy who uses the G15 for his shot rotation that it is ok and then tell some guy in AV who uses it so they can afk that it isn't ok. While these are two different extremes you are using the same feature of the keyboard to achieve them.

Automation is automation and if Blizzard was to say, 'go ahead and use the G15 and all it has to offer, we don't care' then how can Blizzard possibly turn around and sue WoW Glider for what they are doing? I guess we would call that a double standard and that is bad business.

If two kids are caught for under aged drinking and one has 9 beers while the other had nothing more then a couple sips the cop is going to bust them both regardless because under aged drinking is under aged drinking.

The question is if Blizzard is actively seeking and banning those who are using a G15 keyboard to fire a shot rotation or cast their spells while they are raiding. The answer there is probably no.

They are simply on the record saying automation of any kind is unacceptable and those caught doing it will be banned. I think they are just covering their ass, thats my opinion.

Just to add onto that, I would think Logitech would need some sort of disclaimer saying that by using these features while playing World of Warcraft can result in the loss of your account and to use and your own risk. You go in Best Buy as some average Joe looking for a new keyboard, the G11 and G15s promote World of Warcraft. WoW is one of the games you can get presets for when you load the software. I really have to think that unless you are using the keyboard and its macro features in a malicious way there isn't much to worry about.

Last edited by Kurkis : Yesterday at 1:02 PM.
#3767SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lancerx
Originally Posted by Teldra View Post
I don't see any difference in binding a n52 or G15 key to W and holding it down to run forward, or assigning a macro to a specific key and having that key bound and held down. I mean honestly, are you going to wack your G15 "move forward" button once for every step you take, or do you just hold it down to move forward? I can see them getting upset if you're using software/hardware that allows custom scrips, but if you're simply replicating a single keypress while using the in-game macro system?
OK so Just to follow up I sent a in game ticket to a GM and asked him if I was violating the ToS. He said that as long as I was not using it for any kind of automation then it was ok. He said If it was used in a sense where you press a key and the device either hardware of software would then send multiple keystrokes then that would be considered automation and a violation of the ToS. I just wanted to make sure sense I have 5 accounts with 70s on all 5, I do not want to get banned

Anyway I let him know while talking to him about how I 5 box and he said that was all good too, and I took some screenshots just in case. Just thought id share with you all.
#3768SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Talithin
Blizzard use G15s at all of their events including the last 2 BlizzCons and they all have the macro and keystroke settings activated. Blizzard also have, as far as i know, a moderately large deal with Logitech which means that all G15 keyboards come with a WoW mod pack (albeit heavily outdated) auto installed. If Blizzard are working this closely with the Logitech team and using the keyboard that you are referring to quite openly, I doubt that using the inbuilt auto-keypress feature is, in any way, a violation of the ToS. I believe there have been 2 or 3 blue posts as well that refer to the legality of using both the G15 keyboard and multibox hard/software.
#3769SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Hink
As I was trying to illustrate before, the fact that shot rotation automation is legal or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether you can get caught or not, since we probably agree that trying to avoid getting carpal tunnel isn't all that immoral.

And while it might be easy to program Warden to check for G15 drivers, it would be significantly more difficult to detect a compiled AutoHotKey script (which can be used in conjunction with the G15, while we're at it). And it would be absolutely impossible to prove anything if you have a hardware device that behaves as a keyboard, since there'd be no other indication of it other than two keyboards being present (which is perfectly legal, I can have 10 connected at the same time if I want to use my USB ports).

People are not interested about how Blizzard will interpret the ToS. They are not interested if automation is legal or moral. What they do want, however, is not to get banned. So the only way to keep our spam up is be smart about it.
#3770SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lethnon
Hey, just had a quick question. My main is a shammy, and coming from the enhancement shaman thread, we had Pawn addon strings for gear. Are there any such strings set up for BM hunters? I did a search on Pawn, but got nada. Thanks!
#3771SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Marthel
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
See WoW Forums -> Seeking Blue clarification: key repeating (scroll down to the Blizzard poster who unequivocally says you may not hold down a key to spam your shot macro.)

Presumably, Warden has now been modified to check for a G15 driver, and to see if the driver was programmed to press a shot macro key repeatedly. Otherwise, it would be hard to distinguish the disallowed events from someone accurately pressing keys over time.

It's unfortunate that BM hunters can't maximize their dps without pressing a large number of keys in a short period of time, with most of the keys having no effect.
You know, I might be missing the point here, but this is not what he says. I think he and the person he was replying to were talking at cross purposes. What he is saying is you must not use it to automate things that macros are not capable of, for example using one key press to cast two spells in sequence.

So he says in a different thread:

Do not use them to automate game play in any fashion.
Do not use them so that a single macro press results in multiple actions.
Do not use them to insert time delays between hardware functions. For example, making a macro that causes your character cast a spell, delay one second, then cast another spell would be unacceptable.
Its clear (at least to me) that he is not talking about it spamming the same key (and thus firing the same macro) [which really - how is that different from binding it to your mouse wheel] but rather using it to "make a macro style function" that accomplishes something you can't do with the in-game macros - e.g. cast this thing, wait 1.2 secs, cast that thing.

Storm in a teacup - IMHO.
#3772SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Lactose
WoW Forums -> Seeking Blue clarification: key repeating

Originally Posted by Malkorix (Blizzard poster)
This is not okay. One hardware function = one action, according to standard macro rules. A hardware function is a keypress (including press/release) associated with movement and an ability/item. Obviously, our default macro rules enable you to use 'modifying' trinkets or abilities, such as nature's swiftness, plus a single spell all in a single press.

To clarify: No, you may not use hardware or software to auto-spam your shot rotations - period.
#3773SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Thereos
just use mousewheele and all those problems should be solved.

well now to myproblem ...
i had more disconnects lately, and i am wondering if it could be possible that its why i changed my macro and spam it to often.

my macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
does someone got any informations related to that?
#3774SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
Suspiria
Hi all

My guild is starting SSC and TK (Solarian down, Void Reaver try), cleared ZA (and trying to catch a bear =P), and Gruul farming. I need some tips about my gear and shot rotation: i've switched BM from Surv for a substantial increase of my dps, but i think there is something to do about small things...

Currently I am using that 1:1.5 shot rotation:
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/castsequence reset=1.62 !Auto shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Recently i've take my Dragonspine Trophy, and i'm searching for a different macro when it proc.
Armory link on profile.
I know: 2 T5 pieces boorst my dps very well, but for now... =\
My doubts are: socketing, correctly shot rotation, and other stuff. I'm open to any kind of tips! =)

Last edited by Suspiria : Today at 12:51 PM.
#3775SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.2
flydiscoguy
Lightning Breath

Hey, I'm new to the forum but I was hoping you guys could help me with a question about Lightning breath and bite.


Is it worth it to even train bite knowing that LB is the major dps or is it better to get bite and LB? DPS wise

and while im at it, if I am gonna use the wind serpent for pve mainly should i even get dash?

Last edited by flydiscoguy : Today at 4:58 PM.
#3776SourcePosted on <=2.0.0KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by flydiscoguy View Post
Hey, I'm new to the forum but I was hoping you guys could help me with a question about Lightning breath and bite.


Is it worth it to even train bite knowing that LB is the major dps or is it better to get bite and LB? DPS wise

and while im at it, if I am gonna use the wind serpent for pve mainly should i even get dash?
For some time I have been using Bite on top of LB. Mainly to see if it is worth it.

The argument behind getting Bite is that if you have LB bound to any sort of spamable key, then it will retain priority over Bite. Hence you will see no LBs getting displaced by untimely Bites. So the main negative point is solved there. So what is the positive point then? Well, at times we will be moving around the boss, in that timeperiod spamming the shotkey/macro is less likely (I try to do it still, but there are periods where it can't be done) and there are crit droughts as well. In those periods Bite will help a fair bit since the natural regen of the pet is at 2/2 BD 48 focus, just shy of LB. And a quick double crit will overload the LB after a drought. Bite will mean less lost focus due to that.

But, we are talking single digit DPS gain or lost. If some resistance needs those 29 points I suggest you take them right away over Bite.
#3801SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Praxx
Originally Posted by Barradin View Post
Sorry to have to post this here... but I've never had some straightforward answer to what kind of dps a properly geared (i.e. has kara/za gear for SSC/TK, has SSC/TK gear for MH/BT with some badge thrown in possibly) BM hunter should be putting out on given fights. I'm asking becuase I've never seen these numbers anywhere and I feel I'm suffering the problem of night working hard enough for better dps because you're not sure it's possible to go higher or not (thus I assume that I'm doing the best possible rather than catching some flaws in my play/rotation). I'm one of the top 3 dps in guild right now so there's not a lot of pressure to perform better.

So just to ask, what are some good (not average) numbers for the following bosses?

Gruul
Lurker
Morogrim tidewalker
Nallorak (bear boss ZA)
Rage Winterchill

That's as far as our guild has progressed... feel free to throw in some later boss targets too.

Thanks in advance!
I am not sure if mine qualify as "good" but I am in the gear range you are looking at. Most of my gear is Badge / Kara with some SSC / ZA / PVP thrown in. Here are numbers I am seeing for these bosses.

Gruul: 1732 DPS Wow Web Stats
Lurker: 1220 DPS Wow Web Stats
Morogrim: 1424 DPS Wow Web Stats
Nallorak: 1191 DPS Wow Web Stats
Rage: 1286 DPS Wow Web Stats

These are the reports with my highest DPS out of all I have for each of the bosses. I think I was higher on our last Rage kill (around 1400) but I did not have my combat logging on.
#3802SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Barradin
I'm hitting similar numbers on everything but gruul... I have no idea how you put out 1700 there... I don't do more than 1100 or 1200 on that fight... good group setup maybe (I know our guild is pretty bad at that)? standing on a stone where you don't get sent flying on ground slam?

my talent spec is identical and my gear is of very comparable quality (armory) BB is my other trinket.

Anyways, thanks for the numbers!
#3803SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Praxx
Originally Posted by Barradin View Post
I'm hitting similar numbers on everything but gruul... I have no idea how you put out 1700 there... I don't do more than 1100 or 1200 on that fight... good group setup maybe (I know our guild is pretty bad at that)? standing on a stone where you don't get sent flying on ground slam?

my talent spec is identical and my gear is of very comparable quality (armory) BB is my other trinket.

Anyways, thanks for the numbers!
Yep, get into position behind one of the stone pillars turns it into a stand and shoot fight. My group is usually three warlocks, 1 elemental shaman and me.
#3804SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ralnar
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> 08/06/05 Info on crit and hit chances

motive has shared some details on the calculations of hit and crit chances:

part 1

The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.

All crit rate adjusting abilities, items, and talents add the flat % to the base % crit rate. So if I have a 5% base crit rate and then use an item or talent that increases that crit rate (let's use Improved Backstab talent for example - +30% crit), my new crit with backstab is 35%.

Regarding how defense decreases the rate of critical strikes, each point of defense that a target has over the attacker, the attacker loses 0.04% chance to crit. So, for example, if a level 60 Rogue is attacking a level 60 Warrior who has 25 defense, the rogue's crit rate will be decreased by 1%.

part 2

+toHit items subtract from your miss%.

So, ignoring all defensive actions (Block/Parry/Dodge/etc..) if I have 20% crit chance, 20% miss chance, and 60% hit chance and I equip an item that gives me +5% toHit and +5% crit, my stats become 25% crit, 15% miss chance, 60% hit chance.

New hit chance = (Original hit%) + (toHit modifiers) - (crit modifiers)
60% + 5% - 5% = 60%

New crit chance = (Original crit%) + (crit modifiers)
20% + 5% = 25%

New miss chance - (Original miss%) - (toHit modifiers)
20% - 5% = 15%
Not sure if anyone has seen this yet, but first time in a long time (if ever) that a blue posted about the roll system for hit/crit.

Of course, it isn't exactly layman writings but the way it is being described here is that crit could eventually remove misses from the roll table once crit pushed out all normal hits. I've seen the >102.4% avoidance rogues, has there been any attempts for the >100% crit DPSers?
#3805SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Pixen
You do realize the post you're quoting is from almost two years ago? I'm not sure how accurate it is to date, considering that most testing done since then has led people to insist that melee at the least uses a one roll system.

I may be missing something, but I'm not seeing where this is coming from
#3806SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2oshawa03
Which Macro?

Hey guys,

Been away from the game for awhile...just getting back into it and I've got two 1:1 macro's...not sure which one is 'the' macro to use these days or even what the difference is between them:

Macro 1:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=2 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Macro 2:
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=2/target Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();


Not sure why #2 has KC before SS and AS with a /castrandom while #1 has it after SS and AS with a /cast.

Also, I thought my shot speed was too fast (1.93) for a 3:2 rotation...and when I tried it in Cheeky's spreadsheet my overall dps lowered, however I've noticed a few ppl in these last few pages claiming to have the exact same shot speed as me and saying 3:2 is better. Below is my armory link and I usually have a 200 lat...does it make sense that 1:1 is more output for me?

***It appears armory is down atm...I can add this later
#3807SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Barradin
Thanks praxx:P

as far as 1.93 attack speed is concerned that's supposedly right around the break point you should switch from 3:2 to 1:1. In my experience (also a 1.93 attack speed), I get approximately +50 dps using 3:2 from my boom tests... not terribly rigorous in my tests but I consistently do more damage with 3:2 at that speed. I think that the relative difference between 3:2 and 1:1 is greater as you slow down your attack speed with 3:2 doing more damage over 1:1 (to a upper max of 2.1 attack speed). again, 3:2 is always a mana hog compared to 1:1.
#3808SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ralnar
Originally Posted by Pixen View Post
You do realize the post you're quoting is from almost two years ago? I'm not sure how accurate it is to date, considering that most testing done since then has led people to insist that melee at the least uses a one roll system.

I may be missing something, but I'm not seeing where this is coming from
My apologizes, the European date system threw me.
#3809SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Teldra
Originally Posted by Barradin View Post
Sorry to have to post this here... but I've never had some straightforward answer to what kind of dps a properly geared (i.e. has kara/za gear for SSC/TK, has SSC/TK gear for MH/BT with some badge thrown in possibly) BM hunter should be putting out on given fights. I'm asking becuase I've never seen these numbers anywhere and I feel I'm suffering the problem of night working hard enough for better dps because you're not sure it's possible to go higher or not (thus I assume that I'm doing the best possible rather than catching some flaws in my play/rotation). I'm one of the top 3 dps in guild right now so there's not a lot of pressure to perform better.

So just to ask, what are some good (not average) numbers for the following bosses?

Gruul
Lurker
Morogrim tidewalker
Nallorak (bear boss ZA)
Rage Winterchill

That's as far as our guild has progressed... feel free to throw in some later boss targets too.

Thanks in advance!
Raid damage can vary wildly depending on buffs and group synergy. I usually run with a druid (+5% crit) and another BM hunter for (+3% damage). This isn't super for synergy, but at least I'm not with the healers.

I typically do around 1250-1450 dps most of the time. One way to really get a good look at a large sample size is to check out WoWWebStats and do a search on a particular boss. For example, there's almost 20,000 listings for just Shade of Aran fights. Go check it out.
#3810SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Barradin
Yeah I tried doing that but either I don't know how to search it properly (can isolate by boss no problem) or I have to manually check what the gear of each hunter is on the armory to see if they're reasonably equivalently geared as I am which is really time consuming... and also... you have to make sure that the date of the fight is very recent (i.e. their armory profile is likely to be similar to what they were wearing at the time of the fight.

that being said... I do recognize that groupings make a huge difference... I was just trying to get an idea if I was like 2 or 3 hundred dps off the mark (what my raid dps can vary by) or something crazy like that.
#3811SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Reebz
I think its fair to say that you should be pushing 1200dps irresepctive of group makeup with your gear.

Throw in a LOTP and a Heroism, expect no less than 1350-1400.


I personally aim for 1500-1600dps on tank and spank fights (like RW or Azgalor) but have noticed through in-game damage metres that peaks of over 2000dps are easily achievable with a simple Heroism and trinket pop.
#3812SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Dendrah
How much DPS you put out is a bit a trickt question. There really are alot of things to consider.

Do you keep hunter mark up or do you have another hunter doing it?
Do you keep scorpid sting up?
Do you have trapping duty (like on Morrogrim)
Do you have a feral druid?
Do you have a shaman? Does he have the totem talents?
Do you have leatherworkers?
Do you have other BM hunters?
Do you have a DPS warrior? (for you pet)
Do you have a shadow priest and in that case access to haste pots and 100% hawk time?
Is there an arms warrior?
Is there a survival hunter?
Is there a moonkin with Faeriefire?
Are there 3 or 4 paladins so you get all the buffs?
Do shamans/leatherworkers get switched in and out for more bloodlust/drums?
Does the boss have recklesness?
Are all armor reducing effects up on the boss?
Can your tank keep up on treat or do you need to FD all the time?
Do you have a healer looking for your pet or do you have to mend it yourself?

It may sound far fetched but you got 40 CD's per minute. Let's say you steadyshot for 600 and we ignore crit.
2 mends in 1 minute will steal you 2 CD's and so 2 steadyshots so 1200 dmg. Comes down to 20 DPS.
1 huntermark every 2 minutes? You lose 5 DPS.
Scorpid sting every 20 seconds? You lose 30 DPS.

It adds up... And so far crits have been ignored.

Last edited by Dendrah : 06/06/08 at 2:29 AM.
#3813SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Hobokin
After using Manito's 3:2 macro, I noticed that I was chaining steadies in raids, using a 3.0 speed weapon. My typical shot rotation was turning into more of a 2:1 than 3:2, and occasionally I would cast 3 steady shots in a row without a single auto going off.

A search on these forums found only 1 other person having the same issue, and it was deemed to probably be lag. My MS is ussally in the high 100s to low 200s. I cannot duplicate the same scenario outside of a raid setting. Testing on Dr Boom, I'm getting very close to 3:2 ratios, with both 2.8 and 3.0 speed weapons.

This is the macro I have been using.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists]MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Has anyone else had this problem, and any ideas on how to fix it?
#3814SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Reebz
As an Australian player, I'm usually running with ~350ms at the best of times.

After I made a post about Manito's macro actually lowering my DPS, Manito himself raised the point that due to lag and having seperate buttons may cause issues with high ping players.

I highly recommend the following macro, I have been using it for the past 6-8 weeks with no issues.

I know it works because I've had 1800+ dps results, which is near my theoretical "Cheeky SS" maximum.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castrandom !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show();
Obviously, remove LB if not necessary, and as a side note, I've never had a "KC lockup" with this.
#3815SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Beatricx
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
guys i need some other hunters thoughts on a few things here. I have just started running some 25 man content and my gears not bad. I use Mantios 3.2 macro...and right now I have a Ravenger pet. there have been other hunters in my raids that I know I outgear...but seem to get out DPS'ed more then I should. Iwant to post a few WWS stats , If anyone can just take a look and maybe see something that I am missing.

Wow Web Stats

Wow Web Stats

WWS Loading...


Im just looking for something that I am missing, I shouldnt be below these other hunters.
With your attack speed it looks like you may clip a lot when aoth procs, try switching to a 1:1 when it procs and see what that does for you. You have a TON of haste for that bow so you may actually do more dps just switching to a 1:1 also, dump that KZ trinket for Abacus of Violent Odds - Item - World of Warcraft until you get your hands on a DST
#3816SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Hink
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
guys i need some other hunters thoughts on a few things here. I have just started running some 25 man content and my gears not bad. I use Mantios 3.2 macro...and right now I have a Ravenger pet. there have been other hunters in my raids that I know I outgear...but seem to get out DPS'ed more then I should. Iwant to post a few WWS stats , If anyone can just take a look and maybe see something that I am missing.

Wow Web Stats

Wow Web Stats

WWS Loading...


Im just looking for something that I am missing, I shouldnt be below these other hunters.
You're messing up your shot rotation. I don't know how you're using that macro, or how it affects your rotation, but you're getting way too few steady shots in there. If you were shooting 3:2 you'd end up with more steady shots than autos, and you can see that's clearly *not* the case. You're not even close to a decent 1:1. Also, the poison vial is kind of crap, use the spreadsheet to find some better trinket. Go to the blasted lands and experiment with your rotation macros. For the gear I'm wearing now, and with my latency (~150ms tops) I find 3:2 is putting out just as much dps as 1:1, but with increased mana usage, so I'm still rolling with 1:1.
#3817SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
guys i need some other hunters thoughts on a few things here. I have just started running some 25 man content and my gears not bad. I use Mantios 3.2 macro...and right now I have a Ravenger pet. there have been other hunters in my raids that I know I outgear...but seem to get out DPS'ed more then I should. Iwant to post a few WWS stats , If anyone can just take a look and maybe see something that I am missing.

Wow Web Stats

Wow Web Stats

WWS Loading...


Im just looking for something that I am missing, I shouldnt be below these other hunters.
Get to the hit cap, those misses may not seem like a lot but it does hurt the DPS. If you are MDing on the pull then the Aimed / Arcane / Multi makes sense as well as Arcane while on the move. If you aren't on MD duty then you shouldn't be using those shots. The hunter that topped you had 126 Steady shots and 114 Auto shots, no other shots fired.

With 89 Haste rating your attack speeds for Auto / Steady are 1.67 and 1.59 under quick shots, this is fine for the 3:2 macro. Under rapid fire your attack speeds for Auto / Steady are 1.37 and 1.43 which should give you a solid 1:1 stream.

The Beast Within, Rapid Fire and the Bloodlust Brooch only used once each in a 6 minute fight, this is not nearly enough. You want to get to the top of the threat list, feign, then fire the following macro.

#showtooltip
/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast Rapid Fire
/use Bloodlust Brooch

You should use Bestial Wrath / Brooch three times during a 6 minute fight and rapid fire twice (1st and 3rd bestial wrath). Feign Death every time it is up that way threat won't be a problem unless you get more that one resist in a row.

You should be able to push out 1100 - 1400 DPS on this fight depending on how many times D&D has you on the run. Speaking of which, don't stand in with a big pack of other ranged DPS, find your own spot off to the side. The target of D&D is randomly selected from the raid and the effect placed on the ground where they are standing. If you are standing with 10 other ranged DPS your chance of getting is 40%. If you are standing by yourself your chance is 4%.

Edit: I missed the shot ratio problem that Hink pointed out. He is correct, you should see more Steady Shots than Auto Shots. Our first Rage kill I had 52% steady 48% auto shots and hit 1286 DPS which is lower than it should have been. What macros are you using and how are you using them (manual spam, mouse wheel, g15)?

Last edited by Praxx : 06/06/08 at 12:45 PM.
#3818SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Horko
I ran into something odd today. I'm normally a 7/20/34 survival, but I swapped to BM for the weekend for goofing off.

I went out to Dr Boom to fiddle with trinket setups for BM. While I had my DST equipped, I went ahead and popped rapid fire and a haste pot. Around then is when quick shots went off, as did the DST. My shot speed was at 0.86 and the 3:2 macro actually reversed itself and went to a 1:2 Steady, Auto, Auto rotation for a couple of cycles.

I don't know if anyone else has run into this, but it did make me laugh. I'm just guessing that with this thing it's theoretically possible to stack haste so high that you reverse it every time you proc some form of haste.
#3819SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
 Praxx
Originally Posted by Horko View Post
I ran into something odd today. I'm normally a 7/20/34 survival, but I swapped to BM for the weekend for goofing off.

I went out to Dr Boom to fiddle with trinket setups for BM. While I had my DST equipped, I went ahead and popped rapid fire and a haste pot. Around then is when quick shots went off, as did the DST. My shot speed was at 0.86 and the 3:2 macro actually reversed itself and went to a 1:2 Steady, Auto, Auto rotation for a couple of cycles.

I don't know if anyone else has run into this, but it did make me laugh. I'm just guessing that with this thing it's theoretically possible to stack haste so high that you reverse it every time you proc some form of haste.
At 554 Haste Rating your Auto Shot time is reduced below your steady shot time. You were at .862 and 1.26 respectively. If you threw in Bloodlust and Drums of Battle you could get to .640 and 1.04 which would give you 2 Autos for every Steady, a ton of DPS and an empty quiver.

Last edited by Praxx : 06/06/08 at 1:35 PM.
#3820SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Kamaa
Though I wouldn't suggest running around with that much passive haste rating, I do have a question related to haste. The other day I accidentally fired an aimed shot mid fight, and the thing went off almost instantly. I barely had time to see the cast bar. Only the debuff confirmed I had actually fired off an aimed shot. My question is, with DST procs and other haste procs, is there a point where a hasted aimed shot can be a DPS boost?
#3821SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ravenoak
What macros are you using and how are you using them (manual spam, mouse wheel, g15)?

Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
Get to the hit cap, those misses may not seem like a lot but it does hurt the DPS. If you are MDing on the pull then the Aimed / Arcane / Multi makes sense as well as Arcane while on the move. If you aren't on MD duty then you shouldn't be using those shots. The hunter that topped you had 126 Steady shots and 114 Auto shots, no other shots fired.

With 89 Haste rating your attack speeds for Auto / Steady are 1.67 and 1.59 under quick shots, this is fine for the 3:2 macro. Under rapid fire your attack speeds for Auto / Steady are 1.37 and 1.43 which should give you a solid 1:1 stream.

The Beast Within, Rapid Fire and the Bloodlust Brooch only used once each in a 6 minute fight, this is not nearly enough. You want to get to the top of the threat list, feign, then fire the following macro.

#showtooltip
/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast Rapid Fire
/use Bloodlust Brooch

You should use Bestial Wrath / Brooch three times during a 6 minute fight and rapid fire twice (1st and 3rd bestial wrath). Feign Death every time it is up that way threat won't be a problem unless you get more that one resist in a row.

You should be able to push out 1100 - 1400 DPS on this fight depending on how many times D&D has you on the run. Speaking of which, don't stand in with a big pack of other ranged DPS, find your own spot off to the side. The target of D&D is randomly selected from the raid and the effect placed on the ground where they are standing. If you are standing with 10 other ranged DPS your chance of getting is 40%. If you are standing by yourself your chance is 4%.

Edit: I missed the shot ratio problem that Hink pointed out. He is correct, you should see more Steady Shots than Auto Shots. Our first Rage kill I had 52% steady 48% auto shots and hit 1286 DPS which is lower than it should have been. What macros are you using and how are you using them (manual spam, mouse wheel, g15)?
I have been using Manitos 3.2 macro. I have it bound to my mouse wheel as well as a G15 key. I just got the G15 button set up last night.

What is the 3.2 macro that everyone is using as well as the 1.1 , I thought I had them all set.

I realized about the lack of RF / trinket uses, I made that macro ...so that should be ok now.

The other guy said I had to much haste for a 3.2...the problem here is I dont know what is TO MUCH haste.
#3822SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Sarutobi
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
Im just looking for something that I am missing, I shouldnt be below these other hunters.
One thing that stood out to me, aside from what others have posted above, is (at least in the Rage parse) that you and the other hunters are not being credited with the damage your pets are doing, so that parse isn't really an accurate representation of the damage that you're doing.
#3823SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Praxx
Originally Posted by Ravenoak View Post
I have been using Manitos 3.2 macro. I have it bound to my mouse wheel as well as a G15 key. I just got the G15 button set up last night.

What is the 3.2 macro that everyone is using as well as the 1.1 , I thought I had them all set.

I realized about the lack of RF / trinket uses, I made that macro ...so that should be ok now.

The other guy said I had to much haste for a 3.2...the problem here is I dont know what is TO MUCH haste.
Re macros: The two I use are from the big red kitty post by Manito here.

MACRO 1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

MACRO 2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

Re haste question: You are only really "wasting" haste rating once you drop below the 1.5 auto shot speed. This is the point where your auto and steady swap and the autos are coming faster than the steadies. With 89 haste rating you should see the following shot speeds under the listed haste effects.

EffectAuto ShotSteady Shot
Rapid Fire1.3721.435
Quick Shots1.6701.594
Bloodlust1.4771.491
Drums of Battle1.8321.681
Dragonspine Trophy1.6061.560
Haste Potion1.5471.529

The only two effects that will put you below 1.5 are Rapid Fire and Bloodlust and then, just barely. We should really stop calling it a 3:2 macro because, as your haste increases the ratio adjusts towards the 1:1. (4:3, 5:4, 6:5, etc.) until you reach the 1.5 attack speed. It is really just a /cast /cast macro as opposed to a /castsequence macro.
#1372SourcePosted on <=2.0.01.372
#3824SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Teldra
Originally Posted by Kamaa View Post
Though I wouldn't suggest running around with that much passive haste rating, I do have a question related to haste. The other day I accidentally fired an aimed shot mid fight, and the thing went off almost instantly. I barely had time to see the cast bar. Only the debuff confirmed I had actually fired off an aimed shot. My question is, with DST procs and other haste procs, is there a point where a hasted aimed shot can be a DPS boost?
Most likely not. I've messed around with aimed shot once in a while, and it typically hits for a little less than steady shot. Don't even bother with it.
#3825SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xaraphyne
Originally Posted by Hobokin View Post
After using Manito's 3:2 macro, I noticed that I was chaining steadies in raids, using a 3.0 speed weapon. My typical shot rotation was turning into more of a 2:1 than 3:2, and occasionally I would cast 3 steady shots in a row without a single auto going off.
I ran into this same exact problem, having a 3.0 weapon and an adjusted attack speed of 2.14. I devised a forced 3:2 macro.

#show Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/castsequence Steady Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Feel free to test it if you like. It turns out a perfect 3:2 and converts easily to a 1:1 with haste. The only downside is that /castsequence slows you down a bit, depending on your latency it may not be best for you.
#3826SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2oshawa03
Wind Serpents

Can someone tell me what bosses, from Mag on, are bad bosses for wind serpent pets b/c they have high resistance to the lightning breath?

Thanks
#3827SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Originally Posted by oshawa03 View Post
Can someone tell me what bosses, from Mag on, are bad bosses for wind serpent pets b/c they have high resistance to the lightning breath?

Thanks
None of them? Maybe Mother Sharaz when she happens to go into nature resist mode.

Zul'jin is a pain with windserpents, not because of resists but because in phase 3 casting LB gets the pet zapped by a lightning bolt...

Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
That petopia article is in need of a lot of updating though. This bit in particular:

After a good bit of research, it appears that the only real difference between "casters" and normal pets is their base attributes. "Casters" benefit from scaling, talents and abilities in exactly the same way that normal pets do.
is flat out wrong, since casters scale with buffs a lot better (especially in the case of windserpents). I'm guessing they benefit from +spellhit/dmg buffs like Inspiring Presence, Totem of Wrath, Wrath of Air and Imp Divine Spirit too, but haven't managed to test this yet. With the amount of pet buffing I can do for brutallus, I'm fairly sure a caster would outperform a non-caster. Sadly my caster WS is still level 56 and levelling very slowly >.> And the highlevel casters from Setthek are too ugly to use.
#3828SourcePosted on <=2.0.0oshawa03
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
None of them? Maybe Mother Sharaz when she happens to go into nature resist mode.

Zul'jin is a pain with windserpents, not because of resists but because in phase 3 casting LB gets the pet zapped by a lightning bolt...
Sweet thanks, thats good to hear. I stumbled across an artical while I was looking up 'pet resistance training' for raids that mentioned how wind serpents were good, but many bosses resisted their lightning breath. Pretty sure it said Void Reaver as an example, but didn't provide any other.
#3829SourcePosted on <=2.0.0acer6798
Generally one wouldnt decide his pet due to a single fight. simply because the pet is weak in a certain fight doesnt mean that overall dps would be less. As for zul'jin i generally dismiss or simply turn of LB for p3 since my pet would generally die. Also from seperate WWS (no link) between my caster and regular version of WS, i noted that my regular WS had slightly more dps. and also had more stam allowing it to survive fights my caster pet could not. Also im not sure why i hunter is being placed with an elemental shammy, but if he is its generally a wasted slot compared to using any other caster in the raid. Tested on Brutalis with full blown CD's that caster version pets did lower dps.
#3830SourcePosted on <=2.0.0alienangel
Originally Posted by acer6798 View Post
Tested on Brutalis with full blown CD's that caster version pets did lower dps.
Damn, sorry to hear that

Was this with full buffs on the pet (double scrolls + pet food + double totems)? The more you can multiply the bonus agi and int it gets the more the crit difference would be between the two pets.
#3831SourcePosted on <=2.0.0acer6798
Well Pet food and a scroll. no double scroll or double totems but i dont see how it would make up the difference. adding in the lower base health from the caster version i would generally prefer the regular version
#3832SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mancer
Originally Posted by alienangel View Post
None of them? Maybe Mother Sharaz when she happens to go into nature resist mode.

Zul'jin is a pain with windserpents, not because of resists but because in phase 3 casting LB gets the pet zapped by a lightning bolt...
Also Hydross is immune to nature damage during his Nature phase (so ~50% of the fight).

Originally Posted by oshawa03
Sweet thanks, thats good to hear. I stumbled across an artical while I was looking up 'pet resistance training' for raids that mentioned how wind serpents were good, but many bosses resisted their lightning breath. Pretty sure it said Void Reaver as an example, but didn't provide any other.
There is a base resist rate for all bosses since they all have some amount of Nature* resistance, but its the same for physical attacks where armour reduces the amount of damage done for each attack. Full/Partial spell resists are more noticeable in SCT because the mitigation from armour doesn't have a notification for it; it just quietly lowers the damage done.

*A pet that did Arcane, Shadow, Fire or Frost damage would be great because CoE/CoS would lower the resist rate quite a bit.
#3833SourcePosted on <=2.0.0oshawa03
Thanks Mancer!

If I could bother you for one last question...could you look at post #3806 on the previous page? I didn't get a response to it and I'm a bit of a macro noob so I wasn't sure which 1:1 macro I should be using, or if either of them is the correct current macro. I think they are both a bit old.
Could you possibly tell me which one is best and insert a line for the lightning breath? I've seen so many different ones and I'm not sure which is right for me.
#3851SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Khassandra
Originally Posted by Praxx View Post
We had a fairly lengthy discussion on this in guild last night. Might you have a link to the blue post?
WoW Forums -> Imp mark
#3852SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2acer6798
I dont have the link personally. but it should be easily found in the hunter forum section. I to would confirm this (also with a survival hunter specced TotH i dont see why efficiency over Imp HM is necessary. They should already have less mana issues then any other specced hunter. Thats how my guild works it at least.
#3853SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rachie
Originally Posted by Wunlastri View Post
Define irony; Finally killing Brutallus and feeling like crap on teh DPS charts.
I know my hit is low as they asked me to respec between attempts and the gemming is off, but this...
Wow Web Stats I don't know what I did wrong.

I never even casted multi shot as far as I can recall and the only reasons for such a poor performance I can think of being on mark/scorpid duty. That and I md'd every chance I got. Anything you can gather? And yes I am aware I wasn't in an optimal group.
I'm not entirely sure if you've changed your spec. But right now you are only using 57 of your 61 talent points :O. I also would recommend only putting 41 in BM tree and putting 5/5 into Mortal shots.

The first thing I notice is you did more auto's than Steadys. I think you did about 170 Steady shots and over 200 autos.

With a 1:1 rotation and an average of 1018 per steady you lost about 30k damage. I realize you may have missed a few by either putting up scorpid or refreshing HM. But you shouldn't miss that many. You should also pretty much stop using multi's and arcanes.

I can't tell because you have a dst, but do you use haste pots? If you don't you should. I doubt you're having any mana issues with a ret pally.

You have mana spring but no heroism :O? What gives?

Your pets dps is 359. That is really low. You aren't using kill command at all.
#3854SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Wunlastri
Originally Posted by Xterra2k View Post
One thing that stood out to me after looking at the WWS is that it appears you didn't use an [Elixir of Demonslaying]. Since 2.4.1 or so, the Attack Power provided by the elixir also applies to ranged attack power. Although the elixir only lasts 5 minutes, you should be able to stop for a second or two and apply a second one for the last minute of the fight.
No, I'm pretty sure me not having mortal shots may have done it.
#3855SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Codizzle
3:2 problems

ive been having a few problems with the 3:2 macro and i was hoping for help (though my questions probably have been answered somewhere) and ive copied the macro directly from manitos post, and there in the correct positions.

first of all im aware that there is some clipping involved, but my shots seem to be clipping very bad, more than i would have imagined and i dont believe my latency is the problem...if anyone has a link to a vid with a BM hunter using the 3:2 macro and having a auto shot cast bar on screen that would be nice.

also i dont seem to be maintaining a 3:2 ratio, it seems to be more of a 4:2->2:1 ratio....the first 2 steadies go off alright and then the auto with a little clip, then i get a steady off and then another just as the auto shot is about to go off, clipping it very badly.

does anyone have any advice?
#3856SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
gan0rz
You can view my first Kalecgos video for an auto shot display. I'm using the most updated version of the 3:2 macro and a 3.0 bow, it should show you how much clipping you should be expecting.

kalecgos2.wmv - FileFront.com

I have no haste gear on, but I'm using dst. (Also keep in mind I'm banging drums from time to time.)

Also if you want to see some more bm hunter pov you can check out my brutallus video.

Brutallus2.wmv - FileFront.com (no auto shot bar on this, i recently got rid of it)

hope they help.

Last edited by gan0rz : 06/10/08 at 12:47 AM.
#3857SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Manito
Originally Posted by Codizzle View Post
ive been having a few problems with the 3:2 macro and i was hoping for help (though my questions probably have been answered somewhere) and ive copied the macro directly from manitos post, and there in the correct positions.

first of all im aware that there is some clipping involved, but my shots seem to be clipping very bad, more than i would have imagined and i dont believe my latency is the problem...if anyone has a link to a vid with a BM hunter using the 3:2 macro and having a auto shot cast bar on screen that would be nice.

also i dont seem to be maintaining a 3:2 ratio, it seems to be more of a 4:2->2:1 ratio....the first 2 steadies go off alright and then the auto with a little clip, then i get a steady off and then another just as the auto shot is about to go off, clipping it very badly.

does anyone have any advice?

Get Quartz and configure the auto shot timer bar, very helpful to see when and if you are clipping, and by how much.
#3858SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rezdan
Since you're here Mon, do you happen to know how adversely Latency affects your Macro setup?

Furthermore, happen to know how much more/less haste I would need to cancel Latency (so to speak)?

Cheers!
#3859SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Manito
Originally Posted by Rezdan View Post
Since you're here Mon, do you happen to know how adversely Latency affects your Macro setup?

Furthermore, happen to know how much more/less haste I would need to cancel Latency (so to speak)?

Cheers!
Latency affects the /cast/cast macro setup much less adversely than a /castsequence macro does, because the macro doesn't have to wait to send commands to the server, I've actually watched a bad lag spike hit, seen myself appear frozen for a few seconds, and then all the shots fire out in the proper order that they were /cast in rapid succession as the server and client resync.

The exact amount of haste needed to compensate for latency/graphical lag issues is really a case by case basis - there are just too many factors to give a definitive, hard numbers answer. I would recommend collecting a few pieces of haste gear, grab Quartz and Kharthus's, and swap gear to find your optimal breakpoints. Beyond that, your guess on what is "perfect" for a given latency range is as good as mine
#3860SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2acer6798
Originally Posted by Manito View Post
Latency affects the /cast/cast macro setup much less adversely than a /castsequence macro does, because the macro doesn't have to wait to send commands to the server, I've actually watched a bad lag spike hit, seen myself appear frozen for a few seconds, and then all the shots fire out in the proper order that they were /cast in rapid succession as the server and client resync.

The exact amount of haste needed to compensate for latency/graphical lag issues is really a case by case basis - there are just too many factors to give a definitive, hard numbers answer. I would recommend collecting a few pieces of haste gear, grab Quartz and Kharthus's, and swap gear to find your optimal breakpoints. Beyond that, your guess on what is "perfect" for a given latency range is as good as mine
Seeing as latency differs from player to player the advice man stated is fairly accurate, You can also test out haste in Cheeky's spreadsheet however i don't believe this to have as strong of a representation compared to hard numbers. Seeing as collecting haste gear might lose priority in your loot system (which im not sure is an issue for you or not) my best recommendation would be to use Qaurtz and roughly figure how much latency you work with during your regular rotation. After that it would be fairly simple to figure out how much haste would be needed in order to find the "perfect" haste for your Latency/Computer.
#3861SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rezdan
I've been keeping an eye on Latency for the past month, and its fairly constantly 280ms which I've always kept updated in Cheekys.

Its just, I'm a cookie-cutter BM spec with a DST and 3.0 weapon speed and in trying to tighten up my shots I don't wanna get too much haste. Furthermore, whereas -Armor Ignore for example can be beneficial throughout, Haste fluctuates and I don't want to invest in items that are gonna be useless if my latency goes up/down 50ms.

Just lookin for some Equation (hehe i wish) for whether I need more or less haste with 280ms.

Sorry for the confusion hehe and any help at all is appreciated.
#3862SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2acer6798
Well for an equation im not sure if there is one to be found given ones latency. Too many variables to count on. If your shooting a 3:2 rotation then generally you want to be around. 2.05 AS for your weapon (give or take a couple points).

After this you adjust for your latency, if its little to non then you can slack on haste and stack crit. If you generally run with more latency then youll want more passive haste to even things out. Trick is finding what macro/haste works best for your gear-set/latency. There isnt a set 1 macro that is better then the others no matter what. It all comes down to generally situational at best.

Best advice i can give you. if your looking at being worried about your latency, stack your passive haste and aim for around a 2.00 AS. if you think your fine go with a 2.05 or even a 2.1 if you feel it serves you best.
#3863SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Indora
Constant latency does not have any impact on your (3:2-)rotation - however, it decreases your dps.

Instable latency effect your rotation: Sometimes you will shoot 3-4 steadys in a row, other times you will have a 1:1 for 3-4 shots... I recommend to stop spamming the macro for a short moment (not more than 1/2 second) if you notice that your casttime won't end before the GCD does(use quartz and watch the timers).

edit:
It's basicly the same problem with pushbacks:

While one shot is still casting, the next one can be started already (as long as there is no GCD to prevent this).

Originally Posted by Indora
auto shot cast
|---|.......................................|---|
steady shot cast
.....|-----------||-----------||-----------|.....|-----------|
GCD
|-------------||-------------||-------------||-------------|
This is an example for survival hunter, but it's all about the same problem.

GCD ends while steady is still casting = Another steady starting, leaving no free room for the auto shot

The reason for a long steady cast differs:
- pushback
- high latency
- slow casttime (no serpents swiftness)

Last edited by Indora : 06/10/08 at 12:12 PM.
#3864SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rezdan
Originally Posted by acer6798 View Post
Well for an equation im not sure if there is one to be found given ones latency. Too many variables to count on. If your shooting a 3:2 rotation then generally you want to be around. 2.05 AS for your weapon (give or take a couple points).

After this you adjust for your latency, if its little to non then you can slack on haste and stack crit. If you generally run with more latency then youll want more passive haste to even things out. Trick is finding what macro/haste works best for your gear-set/latency. There isnt a set 1 macro that is better then the others no matter what. It all comes down to generally situational at best.

Best advice i can give you. if your looking at being worried about your latency, stack your passive haste and aim for around a 2.00 AS. if you think your fine go with a 2.05 or even a 2.1 if you feel it serves you best.
I've finally found the post pertaining to Haste:
WoW Hunt Forums

Hasted Speed = cast time / 1.20 (Serpent swiftness) * 1.15 (Quiver) * 1.15 (IaoH) * 1.40 (RF) * (1+ (x/1570))
-where x is the total added up haste from gear.

Simplified to: x = 1413y - 3690
With 3.0 speed. x = 549
DST is 325, leaving me to shoot for 224.

Indora has stated that Constant Latency does NOT affect my rotation, so there would be no need to include it in the Optimal Haste equation.

Conversely, Acer6798 has stated that if i generally run with more latency, i'll want more haste to even things out.

Anyone that can clear this up?
#3865SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tirth
Originally Posted by Rezdan View Post
I've finally found the post pertaining to Haste:
WoW Hunt Forums

Hasted Speed = cast time / 1.20 (Serpent swiftness) * 1.15 (Quiver) * 1.15 (IaoH) * 1.40 (RF) * (1+ (x/1570))
-where x is the total added up haste from gear.

Simplified to: x = 1413y - 3690
With 3.0 speed. x = 549
DST is 325, leaving me to shoot for 224.

Indora has stated that Constant Latency does NOT affect my rotation, so there would be no need to include it in the Optimal Haste equation.

Conversely, Acer6798 has stated that if i generally run with more latency, i'll want more haste to even things out.

Anyone that can clear this up?

I also would like to see this elaborated on a bit. Full BM with 62 haste; trinkets, IaoTH, the works and the 3:2 /cast macro and EVERY night here lately I have been seeing a consistant 1:1 in my WWS reports. Thing is I run with about 400+ latency at all times. Is this hurting me? Will more haste make the macro reverse if I and more? Is there something that I maybe missing that will help? I am scratching my head this morning wondering just what is really going on and if I need to back off a little.


Wow Web Stats

164/144=1.12 Right?

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am just kinda confused a little about this whole thing....
#3866SourcePosted on <=2.0.0acer6798
First off a 3:2 is exactly that. 3 steady to 2 auto. However adding in a QS (using badge bow and roughly 70 haste) puts me into a solid 1:1 rotation. Generally i have a QS proc up about 50% of any given fight. Adding in multiple others (DST, BL, RF, Etc.) more commonly this leaves my 3:2 in a 1:1 rotation. So why not simply use a 1:1? because in those down periods where you dont have any haste a 3:2 is going to be superior dps wise to a 1:1.

That said your dps is still fairly low for supremus (tho the fight doesnt allow for a very accurate dps reading)

This is a link for my latest Supremus Wow Web Stats (btw how do i link it cleaner?) anyways im BM w/o a DST so generally i have 50% rotation of 3:2 and 50% as a 1:1. But when you look at supremus i actualy had more Auto shots then Steady's. If your simply looking into your rotation to fix a dps issue i dont think its that simple. Obviously i can work on my rotation as well (i could explain the more auto then steady but dont feel necessary unless someone was that interested)

Armory is down so i cant see your gear, however my average shots are hitting for 300 more dmg then yourself. so im not exactly sure why. But on that note all i can say is improving your rotation is all well in good, but in your case it doesnt seem to be the entire issue.

No rotation is perfect. Just test them out until you find one that best works for you. my best advice.
#3867SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tirth
Originally Posted by acer6798 View Post
First off a 3:2 is exactly that. 3 steady to 2 auto. However adding in a QS (using badge bow and roughly 70 haste) puts me into a solid 1:1 rotation. Generally i have a QS proc up about 50% of any given fight. Adding in multiple others (DST, BL, RF, Etc.) more commonly this leaves my 3:2 in a 1:1 rotation. So why not simply use a 1:1? because in those down periods where you dont have any haste a 3:2 is going to be superior dps wise to a 1:1.

That said your dps is still fairly low for supremus (tho the fight doesnt allow for a very accurate dps reading)

This is a link for my latest Supremus Wow Web Stats (btw how do i link it cleaner?) anyways im BM w/o a DST so generally i have 50% rotation of 3:2 and 50% as a 1:1. But when you look at supremus i actualy had more Auto shots then Steady's. If your simply looking into your rotation to fix a dps issue i dont think its that simple. Obviously i can work on my rotation as well (i could explain the more auto then steady but dont feel necessary unless someone was that interested)

Armory is down so i cant see your gear, however my average shots are hitting for 300 more dmg then yourself. so im not exactly sure why. But on that note all i can say is improving your rotation is all well in good, but in your case it doesnt seem to be the entire issue.

No rotation is perfect. Just test them out until you find one that best works for you. my best advice.
I think its finally comming to me that at a certain point I belive my rotation is down and well, I think that the haste that I have is efficent for the latency that I have being I have a steady 3:2 and a 1:1 working as one. After studying different WWS reports on the same fights and browseing over Armory profiles. The difference in what I am looking for has to be in the Crit. My gear make up is highly composed of Agi but low on the side of Crit with a little haste mixed in. Looking at Acers WWS for example (and I am just guessing) I suppose you have around 30% unbuffed crit? No? Where as I am struggleing with 27.5% or so atm Just going to have to go back to the drawing boards and find a way to bring it up more...

I really dont know why the armory wont let me pull up your page either...

I was getting confused with the whole haste / crit deal some are saying that the haste is better for high latency people and should be stacked a lot higher.

Just like was said yesterday,there is just no set way for Latency,I guess. It is just not solid enough to make a calculation on.
#3868SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Manito
Originally Posted by Tirth View Post
I also would like to see this elaborated on a bit. Full BM with 62 haste; trinkets, IaoTH, the works and the 3:2 /cast macro and EVERY night here lately I have been seeing a consistant 1:1 in my WWS reports. Thing is I run with about 400+ latency at all times. Is this hurting me? Will more haste make the macro reverse if I and more? Is there something that I maybe missing that will help? I am scratching my head this morning wondering just what is really going on and if I need to back off a little.


Wow Web Stats

164/144=1.12 Right?

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am just kinda confused a little about this whole thing....
Look at your Buffs/Gains list. 9 Quick Shots, 6 Hastes, 3 Rapid Fires, 1 Heroism. Not overly surprising that over a 12-13 minute period you were averaging pretty close to a 1:1.
#3869SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lominen
Brutallus issue

Hey people.

Simply can't stand this issue occuring anymore now. I am in a guild currently on M'uru in SWP, yet I have recently migrated here and my gear is still a bit from the average at this level, armory profile here:

The World of Warcraft Armory

Anyway despite doing Brutallus for a while now, I still on a regular basis run into aggro issues. Its not because I don't feign, it's not because I don't use Omen, it's not because I don't know how to control my aggro on feign resists, but basically even 4-5 min. into the encounter with consecutive feigns on cooldown, meaning like 7-8 feigns at least, and despite being not even in top10 on Omen, I all out of nowhere draws aggro. Neither is it due to being in melee range, but it just seems like my feign dont really have any effect.

Now I realize resist is not uncommon, but I hardly doubt it can happen that many times in a row. And in particular when both Omen and my UI shows it as a succesful feign, I really got no clue how to fix this issue.

So basically I am asking for advice, ppl with similar experiences and hopefully fixes for it to make this shit go away. Not really any point to have an aggro dump when it doesnt work.

Thank you in advance.

Vidara
#3870SourcePosted on <=2.0.0TheIceMan
i experienced this problem when i cast ms / as immediately after using fd.

maybe it helps when you wait 2-3 until you doing the next action
#3871SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
Very often, high latency and instable latency go hand in hand...
Thus, the advice to take more haste if your latency is high, will be correct most of the time.

But it's not important how high your latency is.
Higher lateny = more delay before the start of a steady shot

As long as all steady shots are delayed for the same amount of time, the breach between steadys doesn't decrease. It's just delayed. Thus your dps decreases, but your rotation doesn't change.

edit:
@Lominen

Just stay 1-2 seconds lying on the ground.
#3872SourcePosted on <=2.0.0acer6798
Originally Posted by Tirth View Post
I think its finally comming to me that at a certain point I belive my rotation is down and well, I think that the haste that I have is efficent for the latency that I have being I have a steady 3:2 and a 1:1 working as one. After studying different WWS reports on the same fights and browseing over Armory profiles. The difference in what I am looking for has to be in the Crit. My gear make up is highly composed of Agi but low on the side of Crit with a little haste mixed in. Looking at Acers WWS for example (and I am just guessing) I suppose you have around 30% unbuffed crit? No? Where as I am struggleing with 27.5% or so atm Just going to have to go back to the drawing boards and find a way to bring it up more...

I really dont know why the armory wont let me pull up your page either...

I was getting confused with the whole haste / crit deal some are saying that the haste is better for high latency people and should be stacked a lot higher.

Just like was said yesterday,there is just no set way for Latency,I guess. It is just not solid enough to make a calculation on.
Armory seems to be working again. (seemingly not for all people however)And your right im sitting around 29.8% crit unbuffed. Its hard to say that my extra 3% crit chance makes me average almost 300 more dmg per shot however.

I wish i had the link for where i read that high latency = more passive haste. i do believe it was either on the EJ forums themselves or the hunter forums. There is a formula posted about how to achieve a 1:1 passive how much haste you would need. IMO the more latency you have, the most haste you stack and the less crit you aim for. If latency is good (between 50-120) then your good to ease up on the passive haste and still have a tight rotation.

@Lom Its all latency related. You might have feigned but because you began your rotation almost instantly the server doesnt have time to recognize the feign and aggro wipe you. Simply adding a second to your fun will up your dps as you cant do any dps if your either dead or threat capped.

@Indora I think the reasoning behind the passive haste is that is slightly affects your rotation, but with the more latency you have its able to tighten up your rotation. All of your shots share the same latency so that is true, but with more passive haste your rotation is still tighter. For those who run with higher latency will generally benefit more from stacking passive haste then those who run with a low latency and are able to stack crit. Thats my take on it.
#3873SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lominen
Considered latency, but seeing as I am usually between 50 and 70 I really didn't consider it to be an issue like that. But I guess the only way to sort it would be to test

Ty
#3874SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rifeus
Originally Posted by Lominen View Post
Hey people.

Simply can't stand this issue occuring anymore now. I am in a guild currently on M'uru in SWP, yet I have recently migrated here and my gear is still a bit from the average at this level, armory profile here:

The World of Warcraft Armory

Anyway despite doing Brutallus for a while now, I still on a regular basis run into aggro issues. Its not because I don't feign, it's not because I don't use Omen, it's not because I don't know how to control my aggro on feign resists, but basically even 4-5 min. into the encounter with consecutive feigns on cooldown, meaning like 7-8 feigns at least, and despite being not even in top10 on Omen, I all out of nowhere draws aggro. Neither is it due to being in melee range, but it just seems like my feign dont really have any effect.

Now I realize resist is not uncommon, but I hardly doubt it can happen that many times in a row. And in particular when both Omen and my UI shows it as a succesful feign, I really got no clue how to fix this issue.

So basically I am asking for advice, ppl with similar experiences and hopefully fixes for it to make this shit go away. Not really any point to have an aggro dump when it doesnt work.

Thank you in advance.

Vidara
This is a problem that happens to many hunters, it is described various places in this thread The Hunter Lounge - Theorycraft Within

Basically it is a bug with the game, where a fully working FD does not reset your threat. This can happen once, or several times in a row, sometimes resulting in overaggro.

You’re saying that this happens after 7-8 FD’s which should happen really rarely, but it is possible.
It happens quite often in the beginning of the fight, I suggest you use your FD’s very tactically timed with your cooldowns, since you do not want to FD in the middle of TBW, but right after.

Some people mention that doing the following helps:
  • Having a command like Hunters Mark break your FD.
  • Waiting until your shot hit the boss before FDing
  • Letting your FD visual effect show for at least a second.

However none of these has been proved to work, and most of them lowers your dps.

I suggest you just tell your guild that this will randomly occur or ask for salvation instead of wisdom. (at least at the beginning)
#3875SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Twelve
Ive seen the Feign bug happen quite a few times during SWP too..
It only ever seems to happen if you dont stay feigned for long enough.

Not like back pre-TBC when you could tap feign then shoot instantly after it.
Try staying feigned for at least 1-2 seconds and that should solve the problem.
#3876SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Khassandra
Originally Posted by Twelve View Post
Try staying feigned for at least 1-2 seconds and that should solve the problem.
That does not solve the problem. Nothing that has been tried has proven to solve the problem thus far. While it does lower my dps, the only way I've found to handle it once it happens is to lay off the shot macro and stick to autoshots until someone else moves ahead of me on the threat meter.
#3877SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rezdan
Originally Posted by indora
Higher lateny = more delay before the start of a steady shot

As long as all steady shots are delayed for the same amount of time, the breach between steadys doesn't decrease. It's just delayed. Thus your dps decreases, but your rotation doesn't change.
Originally Posted by acer6798 View Post
I wish i had the link for where i read that high latency = more passive haste. i do believe it was either on the EJ forums themselves or the hunter forums. There is a formula posted about how to achieve a 1:1 passive how much haste you would need. IMO the more latency you have, the most haste you stack and the less crit you aim for. If latency is good (between 50-120) then your good to ease up on the passive haste and still have a tight rotation.

@Indora I think the reasoning behind the passive haste is that is slightly affects your rotation, but with the more latency you have its able to tighten up your rotation. All of your shots share the same latency so that is true, but with more passive haste your rotation is still tighter. For those who run with higher latency will generally benefit more from stacking passive haste then those who run with a low latency and are able to stack crit. Thats my take on it.
Any way to really hash this out? I did post the Haste formula above but I can't quite think where latency fits into it. My AutoShots won't be shooting slower on server because of high ms right? So just my Steady's will? This means that there *could* be some way to figure out how Latency affects your rotation and whether Haste is more/less useful right?
#3878SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cranch
I feign, and then shoot to break the feign (rather than move.) That seems to work better. (My feign macro also has a /stopcasting in it prior to the /cast Feign Death, but that's just because I am paranoid.)
#3879SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Bakuu
Shot Macro

Hello. This is my first post so, please, bare with me. I am a BM hunter. My attributes (in PVE/raiding gear) are:
Dam: 607-769
Speed: 2.10
Att Pwr: 1469

I have used a shot macro (once) but coding was wrong and continued to "bug" me out. Had to relog to reset. Since then, I have not used a shot macro. I am interested in using one again but, I am uncertain as to which one would best suit me. I have been playing for 2 years but have really never (except that 1 time) utilized a shot macro. So, I do not have the knowledge to know exactly what to look for. If anyone could assist me, please do.

P.S. I posted some stats of myself above because I didn't know what information that I needed to give in order for the assistance (if anyone provides it) would be useful. Thank you.
#3880SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rifeus
Originally Posted by Bakuu View Post
Hello. This is my first post so, please, bare with me. I am a BM hunter. My attributes (in PVE/raiding gear) are:
Dam: 607-769
Speed: 2.10
Att Pwr: 1469

I have used a shot macro (once) but coding was wrong and continued to "bug" me out. Had to relog to reset. Since then, I have not used a shot macro. I am interested in using one again but, I am uncertain as to which one would best suit me. I have been playing for 2 years but have really never (except that 1 time) utilized a shot macro. So, I do not have the knowledge to know exactly what to look for. If anyone could assist me, please do.

P.S. I posted some stats of myself above because I didn't know what information that I needed to give in order for the assistance (if anyone provides it) would be useful. Thank you.
I suggest you use the following macro: (credits to Manito):

MACRO 1:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/click [target=pettarget,exists] MultiBarBottomLeftButton12
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

MACRO 2:

/castsequence reset=4 Kill Command, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot, !Auto Shot

You can read about it on the following page: Manito's Modified 3:2 Steady Shot Macros .

However this will occasionally bug you out, with kill command being 'stuck'. This happens if use kill command at the same time the mob dies, but the mob dies before you get to fire your kill command.

Edit: If you can try and archive a little extra haste, to bring to from 2.1 to ~2.07
#3881SourcePosted on <=2.0.0smoogle
I have one question that i should already know already but heh!
Um im still unsure of what shot rotation i should use when my autoshot falls below 1.5speed... For example im at 2.1 speed with haste gear which makes my autoshot at around 1.5 when i hit rapid fire.. What happens then when quickshots procs or DST procs.. what shot rotation should i be using then ? i have alwyas continued to spam steady shot but wasn't sure if this was the best thing to do
#3882SourcePosted on <=2.0.0khel
Originally Posted by smoogle View Post
I have one question that i should already know already but heh!
Um im still unsure of what shot rotation i should use when my autoshot falls below 1.5speed... For example im at 2.1 speed with haste gear which makes my autoshot at around 1.5 when i hit rapid fire.. What happens then when quickshots procs or DST procs.. what shot rotation should i be using then ? i have alwyas continued to spam steady shot but wasn't sure if this was the best thing to do
The most practical way to get the most dps in these extreme-haste situations, is just to keep spamming the "3:2" macro. If your autoshot went down to 0.5s or something then spamming it would just keep shooting autoshots and sent off a steadyshot when the GCD was gone, fitting in the most possible shots per GCD.
#3883SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lominen
Originally Posted by Cranch View Post
I feign, and then shoot to break the feign (rather than move.) That seems to work better. (My feign macro also has a /stopcasting in it prior to the /cast Feign Death, but that's just because I am paranoid.)
Exactly the same goes for me. stopcasting before feign and autoshot to get back up. Did you run into any problems with that?
#3884SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Indora
Just write down a typical shoot cycle:

L = Latency (ie 0.28)
H = Haste (ie 1.38)
S = average SpamSpeed (ie 0.1) *
W = Weaponspeed (ie 2.8)

previous shots:
auto
steady

       Action                  Time
steady shot click            0
steady shot start            L
steady shot end              L + 1.5 / H
auto shot start              L + 1.5 / H    delayed by the steady shot and thus starts just after it
auto shot end                L + 2 / H **
steady shot 2 click          1.5 + S   starts after GCD is ready
steady shot 2 start          1.5 + S + L
steady shot 2 end            1.5 + S + L + 1.5 / H

Auto shot 2 start            (1.5 + W) / H + L   casts Weaponspeed seconds after the first auto
        OR
Steady shot 3 start          3 + 2 S + L  starts after GCD is rdy

* SpamSpeed is the time it takes you to click your button after the GCD ends
** assumes auto cast time reduced by haste (Well, actually it doesn't matter anyway in this case).
We're interested in what comes first: Auto shot 2 or Steady Shot 3...
In the first case, we have a 3:2 rotation, in the second a 2:1 rotation.

All we have to do now is to subtract one of the other and controll whether the result is < 0:

If ((1.5 + W)/H + L) - (3 + 2 S + L) < 0
Then rotation = 3:2
Else rotation = 2:1

As you can see, L is subtracted by L. Because of this a rotation does not depend on latency, as long as its constant.
However, latency can differ quite a lot between 1.5 seconds and destroy your rotation:
Let's assume the first steady shot is delayed for 400ms and the third one for only 100 ms. This decreases the breach in which an auto shot can come through by 300ms. (Which will most likely kill your rotation)

Thus, constant latency doesn't have any affect on your rotation, only instable does.
Euiping more haste enlarges the breach for your auto shot (As you can see in the forumla, too: H is a denominator. The higher H, the lower the result and the more likely it'll be below 0).
A larger breach can compensate instable latency easier and thus help your rotation. But as long as your latency is constant, there's no reason to take more haste than normal.

Last edited by Indora : Yesterday at 10:58 AM.
#3885SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Shibam
Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
That does not solve the problem. Nothing that has been tried has proven to solve the problem thus far. While it does lower my dps, the only way I've found to handle it once it happens is to lay off the shot macro and stick to autoshots until someone else moves ahead of me on the threat meter.
You can also try feigning and while youre down pull the pet off and see if it drops your name in omen. I had to do that awhile back before sunwell. I but i havnt had to do that sense.
#3886SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Bakuu
Thank you Rifeus, for your reply about a shot macro for me as a BM hunter.
#3901SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Nataliah
Originally Posted by train View Post
I got a question regarding Manito's 3:2 macro. I've been recently looking into AutoHotKey lately and have tried it, but with the Manito's 3:2 macro, it makes my computer completely freeze up, or have an extreme amount of lag every time I hold down my macro key. Is there a work around for this with AutoHotKey? Or do I have to go back to the manual scroll wheel mouse . I usually have the sleep timer function around 0-5 if you understand what that means.
I had a similar problem using a different hotkey program. What I did to solve the problem was go to Control Panel, then Keyboard, and lower the slider for Repeat rate. I had to lower it a lot for my computer to not slow down. For me, the slider is only at the one-fifth mark.
#3902SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Grotkrish
I guess a lot of you have already seen this, from the 2.4.3 PTR patch notes:

Hunters: Using an instant ability after Steady Shot will no longer lock out auto shot.
Has anyone done any testing on the PTR yet? The way I read it, it means Kill Command will no longer delay our shot rotation?
#3903SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Felixalias
Originally Posted by Grotkrish View Post
I guess a lot of you have already seen this, from the 2.4.3 PTR patch notes:



Has anyone done any testing on the PTR yet? The way I read it, it means Kill Command will no longer delay our shot rotation?
I took this to mean Kill Command will no longer glitch and lock up grayed out.
#3904SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Deathstalkr
Originally Posted by Felixalias View Post
I took this to mean Kill Command will no longer glitch and lock up grayed out.
Given that this will be the case. What impact does this play on the shot rotation? Will this help prevent clipping too or merely keep KC from locking up?
#3905SourcePosted on <=2.0.0abron
In regard of Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury, would you stack haste to get a »real« 1:1, maybe even with dropping iAotH or go back to only maybe 2 peaces of hasteitems which would lead to a speed between 1,90 and 2,00 to perform a 3:2 ... just wondering because some nice items joined with no haste on them challenging all the haste from swp. Just wondering an still waiting on cheeky 50.0 *g
#3906SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Manito
Originally Posted by Grotkrish View Post
I guess a lot of you have already seen this, from the 2.4.3 PTR patch notes:

Hunters: Using an instant ability after Steady Shot will no longer lock out auto shot.
Has anyone done any testing on the PTR yet? The way I read it, it means Kill Command will no longer delay our shot rotation?
This worries me - because the issue wasn't just with Auto Shot locking (in fact, it really had nothing to do with Auto Shot locking at all) - the issue was that Steady Shot macros with Kill Command directly in-line with the macro would lock up the ENTIRE macro (including the Auto Shot/Steady Shot lines) in combination with Kill Command becoming locked. The issue the entire time has been Kill Command triggering before Steady Shot was finished casting, causing a bug that locked out Kill Command from being triggered until it was activated again by another critical strike.
#3907SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Sip
I am using macro with kill command in macro and if is locked I can still fire SS without problems and unlock it with next crit.
#3926SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Masnie
Originally Posted by Dendrah View Post
Well I have a question. It is not 100% BM hunter but still...

I claim having 122 hit and using hit food for bosses is superiour to having 142 and using agi food everywhere.
While there is no difference in stat/item budget, there is a very practical difference. Should you die in a bossfight (think of unavoidable deaths like Azgalor's doom or Teron's Shadow of death) and receive a Battleres or Soulstone you are lacking 20 hitrating since you can't refresh the now missing foodbuff. This means it is generally better to have the complete 142 hitrating on your gems and gear, and using the 20 agility food instead.
#3927SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Indora
Originally Posted by Sthellesta View Post
I followed your advice and did the same test with the frequency of hitting steady every .001 seconds, the fastest the G15 would let me. The results are here. The test only lasted 431 seconds as that is when I dropped below 500 mana.

Using Lactose's format: 151 Auto Shots (2.85), 280 Steady Shots (1.53) Average latency ~180.

Considerably higher frequency, but still 7 short of the theoretical 287 I should have gotten in 431 seconds.
This proves what I said:
There is no server-side queue for cast resquest while waiting for the GCD.

But I'm wondering why the frequency is 1.53 and not 1.5 + Seconds per Click / 2 ( = 1.5005)...
Did you have any FPS problems?
Am I correct assuming you have around 13 FPS while spamming your macro?
Calculation: 1 / 0.039 / 2 = 12.82
- 0.039 is the average delay per Steady or 'Seconds per Click'
- /2 because sometimes, you click just after the GCD ends and sometimes *Clickfrequence* Seconds later
#3928SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Lominen
Originally Posted by Masnie View Post
While there is no difference in stat/item budget, there is a very practical difference. Should you die in a bossfight (think of unavoidable deaths like Azgalor's doom or Teron's Shadow of death) and receive a Battleres or Soulstone you are lacking 20 hitrating since you can't refresh the now missing foodbuff. This means it is generally better to have the complete 142 hitrating on your gems and gear, and using the 20 agility food instead.
Well that have to go in the very knitpicking department won't it? Teron doesn't last more than 5min tops, Azgalor prolly a bit longer. But how often will you see a _hunter_ get combatressed in these fights? Isn't it usually shamans of any kind, spriests, healers etc that benefit the raid a bit more. And even if you do get the res, that short time with 20 less hitrating will hadly make any difference. When you venture into sunwell at least an early death is more or less fatal for your raid since most of the encounters are on a quite tight timer.

It is no secret that obtaining hit is very hard without equal bidding on leather loot. Since Blizz decided to entirely keep hit off i.e. the original t6 pieces. I'd say that in the earlier stages of the game you sacrifice to much by aiming for a strict 142 all the time.
#3929SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dendrah
Originally Posted by Masnie View Post
While there is no difference in stat/item budget, there is a very practical difference. Should you die in a bossfight (think of unavoidable deaths like Azgalor's doom or Teron's Shadow of death) and receive a Battleres or Soulstone you are lacking 20 hitrating since you can't refresh the now missing foodbuff. This means it is generally better to have the complete 142 hitrating on your gems and gear, and using the 20 agility food instead.
I believe strongly in adapting your gear to the encounter.

On trash I dop my hit to around 95 and fill my open slots up with arm penetration, haste, crit, AP, other stuff...

If we have a balance druid around keeping up imp FF I also aim for 95 hit. Even for 75 hit with the hit food.

It takes some gear balancing and takes up some bag slots but it gives a good result.

You're not going to tell me you don't bring SR gear to Mother because you lack hit do you?
#3930SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Sthellesta
Originally Posted by Indora View Post
This proves what I said:
There is no server-side queue for cast resquest while waiting for the GCD.

But I'm wondering why the frequency is 1.53 and not 1.5 + Seconds per Click / 2 ( = 1.5005)...
Did you have any FPS problems?
Am I correct assuming you have around 13 FPS while spamming your macro?
Calculation: 1 / 0.039 / 2 = 12.82
- 0.039 is the average delay per Steady or 'Seconds per Click'
- /2 because sometimes, you click just after the GCD ends and sometimes *Clickfrequence* Seconds later
I did not record my FPS, but I believe it was above at least 20 the entire time. I will redo the test after my raid tonight and record my FPS.

Another possibility might be minor lag spikes. If I got a very small increase in latency just as the GCD came off, the packets might not be reaching the server at equal intervals, causing a short delay.
#3931SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ivaldi
Originally Posted by Dendrah View Post
If we have a balance druid around keeping up imp FF I also aim for 95 hit. Even for 75 hit with the hit food.
Actually this brings up a good point for me. On Sunwell bosses our moonkin likes to sacrifice himself to the attrition gods about half the time. Therefore I'm wondering if I'm hurting myself by gearing with the expectation the boss will have imp FF. I don't even want to talk about the times he forgets to put it up, forgets to refresh it, or plain doesn't care.

Are the stats that I gain worth risking the single most important stat, especially on a progression boss (where 0% miss is crucial for the first MDs)?
#3932SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dendrah
If you can't count on your druid then make sure you have the hit yourself

You can also try to have alternative weapons sets who can be switched half way in. Althou I think the Halberd is not easy to replace with something better.
#3933SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Sthellesta
I redid the test. Same macro on my G15 spamming the same key every .001 seconds. The test this time lasted 600 seconds.

225 Auto Shots (2.67), 387 Steady Shots (1.55) Average latency ~260. 13 steadies short of the expected 400.

Now, the FPS part is where it gets weird. While casting a steady shot, my framerate would be in the 40-50 range. But the moment the GCD got close to coming off, my FPS just dropped. The lowest that my mod picked up was 6.7. This kept repeating in a cycle until I stopped the test.

Last edited by Sthellesta : 07/04/08 at 6:56 AM.
#3934SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Indora
Originally Posted by Sthellesta View Post
I redid the test. Same macro on my G15 spamming the same key every .001 seconds. The test this time lasted 600 seconds.

225 Auto Shots (2.67), 387 Steady Shots (1.55) Average latency ~260. 13 steadies short of the expected 400.

Now, the FPS part is where it gets weird. While casting a steady shot, my framerate would be in the 40-50 range. But the moment the GCD got close to coming off, my FPS just dropped. The lowest that my mod picked up was 6.7. This kept repeating in a cycle until I stopped the test.
Until now I thought the GCD works this way:
At the moment a cast is clicked, the gcd starts (not waiting for the server's 'OK') and prevents any other casts to be used.

But what you describes doesn't fit with my assumption...
There shouldn't be any delay, the first activation after the end of the gcd should start the next gcd and prevent the following clicks from causing lags.
I think the client waits for a signal from the server until he really stops all following clicks (Maybe the first click was prevented by something - In this case, a player with high latency would have to wait 200+ seconds until the alert message reaches him, preventing him from casting anything in the meantime.)

But this still doesn't explain the average 50 ms delay on your Shots... your Seconds per Steady, 1.55039 are nearly exactly 50 ms slower than expected (1.5005).

Any Idea where this could come from? Serverside computing time?
FPS problems?

Assuming 10 FPS while spamming the macro:
1 / 10 / 2 = 50 ms delay - exactly the number we want...

But this doesn't make any sense, because the FPS problems are caused by the clicks - At the moment the first click comes through shouldn't be any delay. (Well, the delay of 50 FPS... 10 ms)
#3951SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Macloud
I had a quick question about my 3:2 macro using a windserpent. I tested it earlier, and it felt like it took way too much time for the pet to fire off LB and KCs. I think it's because I have the part of the macro that manually tells it to use LB in the wrong place. If someone would take a look and verify that I haven't done anything wrong, or correct it if I have, I would really appreciate it. I'm so used to a cat at this point that windserpent macros are still very new to me.

#showtooltip Auto Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] lightning breath
/cast Steady shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#3952SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Targrend
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
Is it really this way? Do you have any source to prove this statement? I would really appreciate it.
This has been known since not long after the dawn of time. See:

Formulas:Item values - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
#3953SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Reebz
I've run into a slight dilemma in recent times: ArP or Haste?

I'm sure others are in a similar situation, relevant info below:
Gear: WoW Armory - Light: Reebz
Gear Access: up to Illidari Council @ BT
Spec: always BM
Latency: 450ms
(Please ignore the fact that my Quickstriders are gemless, only got them a few hours ago)

As it stands, I've got enough gear to mix and match to be hit capped and run with around ~750 ArP.

Having used CoRS for quite a while, Haste never really interested me as I'm an Australian player with 450ms latency. Recently aquiring Bristlebritz Striker has made me think twice.

I've just had Bindings of Lightning Reflexes crafted and probably plan on picking up Valestalker Girdle. I've also contemplated the Vanir's Badge Fists if I go down the haste path.

However, looking at T6 gear, its very ArP heavy and I feel this might be a better fit with my latency. I've managed to aquire one Dagger of Bad Mojo and plan on sourcing another. Having these I would most likely be pushing the 1000 ArP mark.

I have and still do use Cheeky's spreadsheet and it is a great guide but by no means do I take it as gospel (I've found varying results). Plugging my gear into the XLS, I find that (with my current gear), swapping my Steadying Bracers with Lightning Reflexes instigates a DPS drop. However, after that, if I sub in Valestalker Girdle, it increases (albeit marginally).

So, long story short, I'm looking for some experienced opinions on the path I should take going forward into true end-game content, in specific regard to comparing and contrasting 2 different stats which both increasingly scale as more is accumulated - while keeping in mind my Aussie latency and potential upgrade path.

I thought I had it all planned out, but balancing Haste/ArP has really got me dumbfounded.
#3954SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Sethius
Hello, I've been looking through this thread and the forums and can't find anything that answers the questions I have so I decided to get the balls to just post a question and ask.

I raid 41/20/0 now, before I raided survival which was more of a weaving shots, having a bat pet with screech but now that I'm BM I have some questions so I can maximize my DPS.
Here is a link to my Armory Profile
805-963 Damage
2313 Ranged Attack Power
30.28% Crit Chance
Unbuffed except for AOTH

My questions are, as BM using [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] what shot macro do I want to be using? and what trinkets would be the best that I have to use at the moment -([Dragonspine Trophy][Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] on top of the ones already equipped in my profile.

and I currently have a 70 trained Ravager and a 70 trained Wind Serpent, which one do I want to use in raids?

and If you notice anything with my gear that I should change please let me know, money is no object and I have access to BT gear if I need a replacement.
#3955SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Kilrage
Originally Posted by Sethius View Post
and If you notice anything with my gear that I should change please let me know, money is no object and I have access to BT gear if I need a replacement.
Couple ideas for you:

First, consider getting the 30 hit scope or the 28 crit rating scope. Id go with hit and regem chest to 3 spinels maybe.

Id suggest the DST + Berserkers Call for trinkets. Im an alchemist myself, and would hate to give up the stone, but that trinket combo is pretty sick. You can also use the stone + DST for mana intensive fights so you can chug the Fel Mana's as needed.

You may also want to check out spreadsheet numbers with a swap of Dorys for Cloak of Fiends and Insidious Bands to Lightning Reflexes.

Weapon would also be a spot to examine numbers on. I think S3/Harbingers/HoD come out ahead of Trollbane a bit.

Your gear is great though, grats.

Oh yeah and for macros, Id go for the 3:2 one. It adjusts to 1:1 rotation if your haste gets that high automatically. That can be found at BRK (click). And I like Wind Serpent for 10s/5s and Ravager for 25s I guess.
#3956SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Kaganar
Originally Posted by Sethius View Post
Hello, I've been looking through this thread and the forums and can't find anything that answers the questions I have so I decided to get the balls to just post a question and ask.

I raid 41/20/0 now, before I raided survival which was more of a weaving shots, having a bat pet with screech but now that I'm BM I have some questions so I can maximize my DPS.
Here is a link to my Armory Profile
805-963 Damage
2313 Ranged Attack Power
30.28% Crit Chance
Unbuffed except for AOTH

My questions are, as BM using [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] what shot macro do I want to be using? and what trinkets would be the best that I have to use at the moment -([Dragonspine Trophy][Ashtongue Talisman of Swiftness] on top of the ones already equipped in my profile.
You want to be using a half decent manual rotation ;-)

This question has been answered many times, basically /cast /cast (3:2), even though this bow is fast enough that even with minor haste it does 1:1 (equivalent to a castsequence macro). Especially if you have constant drums rolling in your group Using the 1:1 macro will use a lot less mana when you're completely unhasted and should be doing 3:2, but the 3:2 macro is still recommended AFAIK (it does 1:1 as soon as weapon speed allows it).

and I currently have a 70 trained Ravager and a 70 trained Wind Serpent, which one do I want to use in raids?
Again, answered before (I think this was in a separate thread where the elemental shamans were crying with what turned out to be very good reason, though): if you have an elemental shaman in your raids, bring the Ravager, else bring the Wind Serpent.

and If you notice anything with my gear that I should change please let me know, money is no object and I have access to BT gear if I need a replacement.
Use Cheeky's spreadsheet. The best I can give you are rules of thumb:

ZA [Cloak of Fiends] > [Dory's Embrace]
BT [Shadowmaster's Boots] > BT [Softstep Boots of Tracking] > [Quickstrider Moccasins]
[Dagger of Bad Mojo]x2 > 2x[Blade of Infamy]> [Trollbane] TBH probably the badge weapons (fists, but also the axe I suppose, again, get Cheeky's spreadsheet) are superior to Trollbane.
#3957SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Ivaldi
Originally Posted by Kilrage View Post
Id suggest the DST + Berserkers Call for trinkets. Im an alchemist myself, and would hate to give up the stone, but that trinket combo is pretty sick. You can also use the stone + DST for mana intensive fights so you can chug the Fel Mana's as needed.

You may also want to check out spreadsheet numbers with a swap of Dorys for Cloak of Fiends and Insidious Bands to Lightning Reflexes.
I disagree, I am currently using DST with the Crossbow of Ugly and find myself below 1.5 autoshot often. I recently swapped back to Dory's (over Vengeance due to my ArP being stacked), so I'm currently at 0 haste. I still find myself below 1.5 attack speed often, but that may be due to our guild's excessive use of drums.

I do agree with regemming to cap your hit, unless you have a reliable boomkin. It's been said before, many times, until cap hit is point for point the most valuable stat for a raiding hunter.
#3958SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Khassandra
Originally Posted by Lominen View Post
Well that have to go in the very knitpicking department won't it? Teron doesn't last more than 5min tops, Azgalor prolly a bit longer. But how often will you see a _hunter_ get combatressed in these fights? Isn't it usually shamans of any kind, spriests, healers etc that benefit the raid a bit more. And even if you do get the res, that short time with 20 less hitrating will hadly make any difference. When you venture into sunwell at least an early death is more or less fatal for your raid since most of the encounters are on a quite tight timer.

It is no secret that obtaining hit is very hard without equal bidding on leather loot. Since Blizz decided to entirely keep hit off i.e. the original t6 pieces. I'd say that in the earlier stages of the game you sacrifice to much by aiming for a strict 142 all the time.
I get a battle rez whenever possible on dps heavy fights such as Council, which lasts more than 5 minutes. Even though Brut is a short fight, every bit of dps counts and I've been battle rezzed then, too. I consider that 20 hit to be very important so I try to get it in my gear rather than with a food buff and always recommend the same to other hunters who ask about it.
#3959SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3pwnsauce123
hunter mehanincs

hello guys, ive been wondering this er since i joine htis new guild...my brother is a hunter and he is pretty much geared out..while some other hunter is below on him in gear...once raid time comes along he just somkes him in dps and my brother wonders whats the problem. the macro? they both have the same pets but still the other guys is pulling off 1400dps while my brother is only doin almost 1k at times in DPS...can any hunter help me please in figuring what the problem is?
this is the macro i use:

#showtooltip Steady Shot

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Lightning Breath
#3960SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3SpartanKillian
Without seeing a WWS log, it's tough to pinpoint what the other guy is doing that your brother is not. That's a pretty generic macro, so I can't imagine it's the cause of a 400 dps gap (that is, there is no macro out there that could possibly outperform that one by 400 dps--even Manito's, while better, won't do that).
#3961SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Kaganar
Originally Posted by pwnsauce123 View Post
hello guys, ive been wondering this er since i joine htis new guild...my brother is a hunter and he is pretty much geared out..while some other hunter is below on him in gear...once raid time comes along he just somkes him in dps and my brother wonders whats the problem. the macro? they both have the same pets but still the other guys is pulling off 1400dps while my brother is only doin almost 1k at times in DPS...can any hunter help me please in figuring what the problem is?
this is the macro i use:

#showtooltip Steady Shot

/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Lightning Breath
The macro that I use? I thought this was your brother?

Anyway, please provide armory links to both so we can judge the perceived gear gap
#3962SourcePosted on <=2.0.0pwnsauce123
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Terokkar&n=Helboi...<-----thats mine
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Terokkar&n=Breagi<----his,,,
he seems to have that advantage on some items but still idk whats goin on with me..am i not spamming the button quick enough?...using the trinks at a bad time? experience? idk
#3963SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Garby
Originally Posted by pwnsauce123 View Post
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Terokkar&n=Helboi...<-----thats mine
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Terokkar&n=Breagi<----his,,,
he seems to have that advantage on some items but still idk whats goin on with me..am i not spamming the button quick enough?...using the trinks at a bad time? experience? idk
He's logged out with Hawk, whereas you're logged out with Viper. Is Viper your main Aspect in raids? If so that's a significant DPS loss.
#3964SourcePosted on <=2.0.0pwnsauce123
:)

no its HAWK..but i mean is there any other macros..or the button cliliking idk what it could be its just wierd..what do u guys think..hes been playin longer than me but ive been playin longer on this too becasue of the badge gear i have..
#3965SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Goldy
Originally Posted by pwnsauce123 View Post
no its HAWK..but i mean is there any other macros..or the button cliliking idk what it could be its just wierd..what do u guys think..hes been playin longer than me but ive been playin longer on this too becasue of the badge gear i have..
It could be any number of things. Group setup - maybe he has a better group for him: classes like bm hunter, spriest, enh-shammy, feral druid are nice to team with what classes are you usually stuck with? Are you using your trinkets to full effect (ie stacking buffs from beast within, rapid fire and bloodlust brooch), are you using full elixir (major agi, major mageblood) and weapon enhancements? Is your party using drums? Are you spamming the living out of your macro? Do your shots lock up in any way? (only shooting steadys or autos for multiple times in a row)

Try to get a WWS report where this dps discrepency occurs and it will be easy to see what is the problem.
#3966SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ramija
First of all Hi and Sorry for my English, it isn`t the Best.


I would like to know how you guys think about the +12 Dam Scope. Would it be better then the 28 crit Scope with a BM Specc, when i already hit about 30% Crit unbuffed or More?

Here`s my Armory Link for Equip Questions: The World of Warcraft Armory
#3967SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Æthien
It's 12 damage on your autoshots vs ~1.4% crit.
With your bow I Assume you are using a 3:2 rotation so autoshots arent even half of your personal dps.

Simply said: 12 damage is never better than 28 critrating.
#3968SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ramija
That +12 Dam dont react on Weapon Damage and Steady Shot?
#3976SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3santipants
Originally Posted by Namless View Post
First off thanks for all the info about hunters and other classes. I usually find what I need here. I finally spec'd BM from MM. In my old spec I had 3 points in surefooted so my HR was capped, but now that I'm 41/20 my HR is low. I was wondering if you guys could give me some advice in my gems and possible some gear. Here is my armory:

The World of Warcraft Armory

Currently my guild is raiding SSC/TK so thats the limits of my gear.
As the poster above me stated, you would want to replace your 8 crit / ap+mp5 gems with agility and agi+hit gems. If you look at most raiding hunters we gem for 10agi and 5agi+5hit, personally I go with agi+stam gems for when I absolutely need a blue spot filled as surviving becomes a big issue in later bosses. Get rid of the 20ap gems pronto. Your meta gem needs to be replaced as well, farm up the cash and get a relentless earthstorm diamond. Find an enchanter exalted with Keepers of Time and get +15 agi on your gloves if you can afford it.

As for your chest do hmgt as often as you can until Kael drops his mail chest, it's ridiculously good or save some badges. The ebon breastplate was pretty good but it lacks agility and there are so many better options now.
#3977SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Kaganar
Originally Posted by santipants View Post
As the poster above me stated, you would want to replace your 8 crit / ap+mp5 gems with agility and agi+hit gems. If you look at most raiding hunters we gem for 10agi and 5agi+5hit, personally I go with agi+stam gems for when I absolutely need a blue spot filled as surviving becomes a big issue in later bosses. Get rid of the 20ap gems pronto. Your meta gem needs to be replaced as well, farm up the cash and get a relentless earthstorm diamond. Find an enchanter exalted with Keepers of Time and get +15 agi on your gloves if you can afford it.

As for your chest do hmgt as often as you can until Kael drops his mail chest, it's ridiculously good or save some badges. The ebon breastplate was pretty good but it lacks agility and there are so many better options now.
Above poster is correct. I would like to add one more gem though that's often forgotten: Jagged Seaspray Emerald. Mainly because CSR is not that much of a hot stat anyway, and even then a Smooth Lionseye (+10 CSR) is considered better. However, if you need to get a blue socket from the badge chest (as in my gear), 5 agi from the shifting gem doesn't beat 5CSR+4AP from the jagged plus the socket bonus :-)

Basically: rule of thumb, shiftings (agi/stam) and delicates (agi), unless the socket bonus is good :-)
#3978SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Lahnna
Hi guys! Well this is the first time I post though I've been reading you for quite a long time now. I have a had a hunter for about a year and still can't play it at his 100% capacity. First off, I want to make you some questions I've had for a long time: When I use TBW, what should I cast aswell? Both trinkets and rapid fire? Just the trinkets so i dont go below 1,50 attack speed so SS doesnt clip with AS? Or shall I cast everything, even Rapid-fire, and just use instants ( arcane and multi-shot)?
Another thing i want to ask, is with my gear (The World of Warcraft Armory) I don't know which macro to use. I have 1,95 attack speed without quick-shots, and to tell the truth, I'm now raiding BT and have never used a macro, so any ideas are welcome.
Well that's all for the moment, I hope you can help me and thanks in advance
#3979SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Squinky001
Originally Posted by pwnsauce123 View Post
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Terokkar&n=Helboi...<-----thats mine
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Terokkar&n=Breagi<----his,,,
he seems to have that advantage on some items but still idk whats goin on with me..am i not spamming the button quick enough?...using the trinks at a bad time? experience? idk
Well, what I can see is that you have 20 more hit rating than you need (Draenei hit cap is 127, not 142), not the top-end enchant on your shoulders, your weapons aren't quite as good as his, and the Abacus of Violent Odds with your attack speed is a bad idea. (I have a 1.93 attack speed myself and see somewhere around a 30 DPS loss if I put the Abacus in Cheeky's spreadsheet.) Also, it looks like he's just got slightly better gear in a lot of slots compared to what you have.

Are you having pet management issues at all? A dead pet is a loss of 200 to 300 dps on it's own.
#3980SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Squinky001
Originally Posted by Lahnna View Post
Hi guys! Well this is the first time I post though I've been reading you for quite a long time now. I have a had a hunter for about a year and still can't play it at his 100% capacity. First off, I want to make you some questions I've had for a long time: When I use TBW, what should I cast aswell? Both trinkets and rapid fire? Just the trinkets so i dont go below 1,50 attack speed so SS doesnt clip with AS? Or shall I cast everything, even Rapid-fire, and just use instants ( arcane and multi-shot)?
Another thing i want to ask, is with my gear (The World of Warcraft Armory) I don't know which macro to use. I have 1,95 attack speed without quick-shots, and to tell the truth, I'm now raiding BT and have never used a macro, so any ideas are welcome.
Well that's all for the moment, I hope you can help me and thanks in advance
Rapid fire affects the cast time of Steady Shot, so your rotation (if using a macro anyway) stays the same it's just faster; If you're hand weaving you'll mostly likely clip shots pretty badly. Personally, I blow everything with TBW. I have a macro to cast TBW, Rapid Fire and would put in clicky trinkets if I had any. Blowing trinkets and Rapid Fire at the same time as TBW gives you more bang for your buck due to the increase in damage TBW gives you.

Multi-shot is not an instant cast, actually. But it's sort of moot because as a BM hunter you pretty much shouldn't be using Arcane shot or Multi-shot unless you're moving and want to get and Arcane shot off.

The most common macros are the 1:1 macro and the "3:2" macro. 1:1 is a /castsequence that gives you 1 autoshot to 1 steady shot no matter what, it's also the less mana intensive macro. The so called "3:2" macro is favoured by many, many people because it adjusts itself to your current attack speed. It's a /cast /cast macro and is much more mana intensive, but is usually better DPS if you have the mana support to use it.

These are the macros I use:

1:1 (less mana, usually lower DPS)

#showtooltip
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/castsequence reset=1 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()


"3:2" (more mana, usually better DPS)

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/stopmacro [dead]
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

(I've got the /stopmacro [dead] line in there out of personal preference. I was having weird behaviour when spamming my macro and a mob dieing where I'd automatically switch to a new target without actually clicking or tabbing to a new one. That line seemed to fix it so now I don't have to worry about breaking sheeps.)

There is another version of the 3:2 macro that take KC out and puts it in a separate macro to avoid the KC lock up issue. I don't use it as I've never really had a problem with KC locking up.

All that said, go out to Dr. Boom and test the two macros out several times to see which gives you better DPS.
#3981SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Squinky001
Originally Posted by Ramija View Post
First of all Hi and Sorry for my English, it isn`t the Best.


I would like to know how you guys think about the +12 Dam Scope. Would it be better then the 28 crit Scope with a BM Specc, when i already hit about 30% Crit unbuffed or More?

Here`s my Armory Link for Equip Questions: The World of Warcraft Armory

As far as I know, there is no crit cap that is reasonably attainable, meaning there is pretty much never a point where you stop benefiting from crit. 28 crit is just flat out better than +12 damage. (There's a reason that scope is a lot more expensive.)

Also, more crits = more focus for your pet = more damage your pet does = more damage you (and your party) do.

Also, I'm going to hope that's your PVP gear and not raiding gear in your Armoury since you're almost 90 under hit cap.
#3982SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3wolfteak
I have been raiding TK, SSC and some tastes from the first bosses in MH and BT.

When i go to cheeky, it gives me something awsome dps, but i just can't pull it! And TBH i don't know why

2.03 weap speed, so i use 3:2 macro, and switch to 1:1 when iAotH procs, such as i use rapid fire
I keep my pet alive and active, but i still do certainly less dmg than the other hunters...

I have always been a Marksman hunter, but i recently respecced BM as i got the xbow from badges.
I just don't see what can i do better now...

Any suggests?

PS: The World of Warcraft Armory
#3983SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Squinky001
Originally Posted by wolfteak View Post
I have been raiding TK, SSC and some tastes from the first bosses in MH and BT.

When i go to cheeky, it gives me something awsome dps, but i just can't pull it! And TBH i don't know why

2.03 weap speed, so i use 3:2 macro, and switch to 1:1 when iAotH procs, such as i use rapid fire
I keep my pet alive and active, but i still do certainly less dmg than the other hunters...

I have always been a Marksman hunter, but i recently respecced BM as i got the xbow from badges.
I just don't see what can i do better now...

Any suggests?

PS: The World of Warcraft Armory
Well, the numbers in Cheeky's are theoretical number based on ideal circumstances. Very rarely are you going to have a no-threat issues, no moving, etc fight. That accounts for some of the difference. As for your gear; in most cases Agi > AP, so gem and enchant Agi over AP as much as possible. Also, gemming for MP5 is usually a waste, go with an Agi/Stam gem for blue and Hit, Crit or Agi/Hit for yellow if you need to meet meta requirements, alternately use two green gems to meet the meta then go all agi for the rest. Do plug gemming strats into Cheeky's, though, sometimes gemming to meet a socket bonus will give you better DPS than gemming pure Agi.

Don't forget the +28 scope for your Chicken of Relentless Strikes, too. XD

And as a last thought, by switching to a 1:1 do you mean you start spamming a different macro? Because with the 3:2 /cast/cast macro you don't need to do that as it adjusts itself automatically based on your current attack speed. (So it will turn into a 1:1 when you're under enough haste to make that happen.)
#3984SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Sindroth
Exactly what Squinky said. Also making sure you have your Hit as close to caped as possible. 142 is capped so it looks like you're missing 14 hit rating. Changing a couple gems to be hit/agi should fix that up.
#3985SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Barradin
agreed... more hit, time your cooldowns well and chug mana/felmana potions like crazy and fire in aspect of the hawk as long as possible.

Also, hunters, especially BM, thrive on not wasting a single cooldown (or as few as possible). This means that you should make every effort/know the fights well so that you can be standing still and firing as much as possible. shave a few seconds off your movements here and there and it will make a huge difference!

I would take note of exactly what buffs you have for certain fights, writing them down and then setting up Cheeky's with exactly those buffs and debuffs used (including bosses armor value) so you get an actual theoretical dps reading for a fight. I find that even one or two boss debuffs/self buffs can drop/increase your theoretical dps by 100 - 200 dps+... particularly when you start pulling 1500 - 1800 theoretical dps.

Lastly, make sure you're using stand-and-shoot fights as benchmark tests of your performance... some good fights at your level:

Nalorak (bear boss za)
Akilzon (eagle boss za)
Halazzi (Lynx boss za)
Lurker below (SSC)
Gruul (people say so but I disagree... maybe I just suck:P)
Morogrim Tide walker (SSC)
Rage Winterchill (MH)
Kaz'Rogal (MH)

Nalorak is, personally, what I would use as the ideal benchmark... you literally don't ever have to move and might get knocked over once or twice in a fight (Though he does have pretty high armor).
#3986SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Kelwick
RE:

RE: "Hi guys! Well this is the first time I post though I've been reading you for quite a long time now. I have a had a hunter for about a year and still can't play it at his 100% capacity. First off, I want to make you some questions I've had for a long time: When I use TBW, what should I cast aswell? Both trinkets and rapid fire? Just the trinkets so i dont go below 1,50 attack speed so SS doesnt clip with AS? Or shall I cast everything, even Rapid-fire, and just use instants ( arcane and multi-shot)?
Another thing i want to ask, is with my gear (The World of Warcraft Armory) I don't know which macro to use. I have 1,95 attack speed without quick-shots, and to tell the truth, I'm now raiding BT and have never used a macro, so any ideas are welcome.
Well that's all for the moment, I hope you can help me and thanks in advance".

You are correct in trying to stay above 1.5 shot speed (under will clip)... However do not Delay your CDs too long as you will start to lose out on prolong idle CD abilities VS trying not to clip your AS. Example: you are at 1.95 shot speed, if you and your group have 4 drummers with drums of battle that means your shot speed will constantly be at 1.84 or so ...pretty much anything will put you under 1.5, so do not save you CDs and keep using your 3:2 macro as it becomes a 1:1 very quickly for you. Your aims eventually should be to have 4 x t6 and either black bow of the betrayer, Archi bow, or one of the season 4 pvp ranged options (with some haste ie. hyjal belt, cloak of fiends, etc. depending on you speed conditions and lag and everything that will give u a headache as to what is ideal) as they are all 3.0 shot speed and as the bonus from t6 while spamming a heaving steady shot rotation will eventually pan out to 3.0 with more dps is better than new badge bow all in all in Cheeky's spread and all :P. In regards to 1:1 ... any mana issues are specifications you want to fix on boss fights ..in corporate this macro for fine tuning with your ever avoidance of going oom while waiting for a FEL MANA POTION CD and despite your mana oil(s) , otherwise just spam 3:2 ... it becomes a 1:1 sequence at certain speeds. Let the EJ people come down on me now for saying that :P. Right now I'm at the point where I have crossbow of relentless. and BBOTB and with my haste options and currently being in sunwell with 5 t6 (but only using 4) I should be using BBOTB for optimal dps and mana regen. Again ... no t6 bonus? stick with badge bow all the way. Aim for 1. BBOTB, 2. S4 3. Archie bow for BM, aim for either Archie bow, BBOTB, S4 ranged, or even some use legionkiller (yech) for survival options in sunwell .. you won't see me use the latter , this is your gear list presunwell for ranged weapons, any ranged weapon in sunwell is better. Ideally with a 3.0 weapon and haste gear you can formulate your speed so that it will never/rarely drop under 1.5 if you know when uncontrollable effects from other members will affect your speed so that you can save anything that will drop you under a 1.5 speed for PROMPTLY after when these affects are finished.

Oh yeah here's a BM speedometer WoWInterface Downloads : Hunter : Speedometer ...why do people still insist on having their character screens open? . This is a neat small box on your screen that you can move that shows you your shot speed at all times without having to keep open your character box at ll times ...ewwww character boxes mess up my sexy UI .

Last edited by Kelwick : 07/24/08 at 12:20 PM.
#3987SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Talithin
Originally Posted by Barradin View Post
agreed... more hit, time your cooldowns well and chug mana/felmana potions like crazy and fire in aspect of the hawk as long as possible.

Also, hunters, especially BM, thrive on not wasting a single cooldown (or as few as possible). This means that you should make every effort/know the fights well so that you can be standing still and firing as much as possible. shave a few seconds off your movements here and there and it will make a huge difference!

I would take note of exactly what buffs you have for certain fights, writing them down and then setting up Cheeky's with exactly those buffs and debuffs used (including bosses armor value) so you get an actual theoretical dps reading for a fight. I find that even one or two boss debuffs/self buffs can drop/increase your theoretical dps by 100 - 200 dps+... particularly when you start pulling 1500 - 1800 theoretical dps.

Lastly, make sure you're using stand-and-shoot fights as benchmark tests of your performance... some good fights at your level:

Nalorak (bear boss za)
Akilzon (eagle boss za)
Halazzi (Lynx boss za)
Lurker below (SSC)
Gruul (people say so but I disagree... maybe I just suck:P)
Morogrim Tide walker (SSC)
Rage Winterchill (MH)
Kaz'Rogal (MH)

Nalorak is, personally, what I would use as the ideal benchmark... you literally don't ever have to move and might get knocked over once or twice in a fight (Though he does have pretty high armor).
You can't get more benchmark than Teron and Brutallus to be honest. Both are revered when it comes to testing your maximum dps potential.
#3988SourcePosted on <=2.0.0teknikal
So after hours and hours of reading, i think i confused myself more about being BM. Currently my guild is working on Felmyst and on our first Brutallus kill, i was able to push out 2071 dps, only having raid buffs and no consumables what so ever. (we killed him on our second attempt and only planned on surviving until he enraged but we ended up killing him instead) So my question is, what would be the ideal AS speed? I am currently using the xbow and my shots are at either 1.93 or 1.96 depending on the cloak i use. Being that i am a troll i would rather use my Black Bow of the Betrayer for the extra 1% crit, but confused on where my AS speed should be at. Some say 2.07 and some say 2.1. Also is it bad to have my macro set to mouse wheel up and down, spamming it like crazy or having it set on my g15 keyboard to go off every ___ seconds? Thanks for the help.
#3989SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Gildorr-jsa
Your ideal attackspeed depends on latency, movement during bossfights, the rotation you want to use, etc etc. Its not the same for everyone. However being around 2.10 would be ideal for a 3.2 rotation I think.
#3990SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ivaldi
Originally Posted by teknikal View Post
Currently my guild is working on Felmyst and on our first Brutallus kill, i was able to push out 2071 dps, only having raid buffs and no consumables what so ever.
That is quite incredible, if you wouldn't mind I'd like to look at a WWS to see what I'm doing wrong. With full consumables I'm usually pushing 2300 at most, sometimes a lot less. If you look at my armory keep in mind I have a boomkin. Also you have a LOT of hit rating o.O
#3991SourcePosted on <=2.0.0beathoven
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
That is quite incredible, if you wouldn't mind I'd like to look at a WWS to see what I'm doing wrong. With full consumables I'm usually pushing 2300 at most, sometimes a lot less. If you look at my armory keep in mind I have a boomkin. Also you have a LOT of hit rating o.O
I typically push around 2700-2800 on Brut, so i took the liberty to check your armory.

First thing i noticed is your very low hit rating. 103 means you're 39 points short of the cap. Switch your yellow crit gems with hit gems would be a good start.

Next thing is your neck. If you're exalted with SSO and (hopefully) Aldor get the melee neck. It's really good and a lot better than what you are using at the moment.

Third thing, instead of using those 2 1h weapons either try to get a Shivering Felspine or the 150 badge 2h weapon ([The Blade of Harbingers]).

Other than that it of course depends heavily on group makeup. If you're in a bad group you can easily loose several 100 dps. We typically have 3 hunters (2 bm, 1 survival), 1 feral druid tank and 1 resto shammy in one group, which is not absolutely optimal but close to (warrior instead of the survival hunter and an enhancement instead of a resto shammy would be).

The rest only boils down to how good you do your shot rotation. I typically use a form of the 3:2 macro and spam that.
#3992SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Yaelle
Beathoven, having a Moonkin available in your Raid setup means Improved Faerie Fire (+3% Hit chance), he could actually go as far down as 95 Hit rating.
#3993SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ivaldi
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
I typically push around 2700-2800 on Brut, so i took the liberty to check your armory.

First thing i noticed is your very low hit rating. 103 means you're 39 points short of the cap. Switch your yellow crit gems with hit gems would be a good start.

Next thing is your neck. If you're exalted with SSO and (hopefully) Aldor get the melee neck. It's really good and a lot better than what you are using at the moment.

Third thing, instead of using those 2 1h weapons either try to get a Shivering Felspine or the 150 badge 2h weapon ([The Blade of Harbingers]).

Other than that it of course depends heavily on group makeup. If you're in a bad group you can easily loose several 100 dps. We typically have 3 hunters (2 bm, 1 survival), 1 feral druid tank and 1 resto shammy in one group, which is not absolutely optimal but close to (warrior instead of the survival hunter and an enhancement instead of a resto shammy would be).

The rest only boils down to how good you do your shot rotation. I typically use a form of the 3:2 macro and spam that.
Thank you for a lot of useless advice about my gear. I was very specific when I asked for a WWS, because I know where upgrades can be found and what they will do for me. You are doing more DPS than me, you also have 3 very solid upgrades from Sunwell.

As said in my original post, and the post above this one, I have 3% hit in addition to what is in my armory.

I am Scryer, as you can see from my shoulder enchant and my rep page. I have the hit neck as well, but swapped that out for the armor pen one and use my badge legs to make up the hit.

I have swapped out all haste, due to using the bade crossbow, and finding myself often in a tight 1:1 or below 1.5s draw speed. Any haste would be largely wasted compared to ArP.

I understand group synergy, however so far I have not seen that group synergy will make up 400 DPS.

I've been using 3:2 for a long time and feel comfortable with it. The only thing I can see that I have yet to resolve is I am still seeing occasional strings of Steady Shots, with no Autos in between. Thus far I have not seen a solution on these forums. A WWS would help me compare the buffs, shot rotation, and group comp, to see if the difference in DPS makes sense or not.

On a side note, our dual glaive rogue puts out around 2700 DPS or so, so perhaps we're having debuff issues as a raid...
#3994SourcePosted on <=2.0.0beathoven
Sorry, didn't think about the boomkin when i looked at your armory.

Here is a link to our WWS history, feel free to check the various Brutallus kills in regard to your original question.

I still personally think that either your group or raid debuffs seem to be a problem, but if your dual glaive rogue can push 2.7k (which is already very decent for a dual glaive rogue) then i'm pretty certain it's not raid debuffs.

Here the WWS history: Wow Web Stats
#3995SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Squinky001
Originally Posted by Kelwick View Post
Aim for 1. BBOTB, 2. S4 3. Archie bow for BM, aim for either Archie bow, BBOTB, S4 ranged, or even some use legionkiller (yech) for survival options in sunwell .. you won't see me use the latter , this is your gear list presunwell for ranged weapons, any ranged weapon in sunwell is better.
I would have to disagree there, myself. Going by what Cheeky's keeps telling me and what my Dr. Boom's tests show, Crossbow of Relentless Strikes is the stronger weapon for me personally until we start downing the Eredar Twins and I get a Golden Bow. And even then, the bow itself is mostly a sidegrade and is only an upgrade if I can get all the gear I'd ideally like for an Armor Pen heavy gear set.

I've spent hours upon hours fiddling with Cheeky's trying to plan out what gear I want from Sunwell, what the best set up of my current gear is and what my best options for rotations/gemming/etc are. I consistently have Crossbow with around 80 haste coming out on top. (Including when I go out to Dr. Boom and test out my rotations with my different ranged weapons.)

I'm not entirely convinced of terrible clipping if one's attack speed falls below 1.5s. I've yet to see my rotation be any worse than a third steady in a row once or twice during a fight on Brut and that is a fight that I'm pretty much constantly under some amount of haste buff. We have three to four drum users in our group, usually one or two heroisms and I usually get three haste potions in as well as two Rapid Fire, nevermind all the Quick Shots procs. Heck, even last night out at Dr. Boom my attack speed fell to 1.2 sec with RF and QS and I noticed that it wasn't clipping much at all. I use Quartz with the swing timer and cast bar enabled so I can keep an eye on what my rotation is doing and what my attack speed is. (Also for manual weaving when farming)

I keep using my Crossbow because it simply gives me more shots in the same amount of time than, say, Bristleblitz does. And using my Crossbow I pretty consistently out-dps the other hunters I run with that use the slower bows like BBS.

But, the real point of the matter is: Use Cheeky's. Plug in all the numbers and all the variables. Use that to determine what's supposed to best for you with your gear and weapon, then test it on Dr. Boom and in raids. Sometimes what's supposed to be the best weapon won't be for you, and only testing can tell you that.
#3996SourcePosted on <=2.0.0mako
When you have passive haste and constant haste procs (quick shots, dst, rapid fire, drums) the slower bow is going to pull out ahead (especially if it's hitting 1.5s auto's under procs). It's not really possible to go faster than 1 auto + 1 steady in 1.5 seconds, so when you're already hitting that cap, the higher average damage becomes more significant.

Cheeky's is a great tool, but it can't tell you everything.

Of course, chicken-stick's other stat contributions are incredibly good compared to black bow's ~40mp5.
#3997SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by mako View Post
Cheeky's is a great tool, but it can't tell you everything.
Luckily the mechanics changes in the expansion will remove that limitation.

I find even with Leatherworkers in the group and Bloodlust every boss fight the faster weapon (badge crossbow) wins out. Of course, haste is a very personal thing for Hunters. We all have different FPS and latency. Testing, testing, and more testing is the only way to know for sure.
#3998SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dralmoo
By modeling drums + haste potion as 480 passive haste, I gain about 40 DPS using Black Bow vs Crossbow. (Armory should be accurate but if not, 4PC T6, no DST). But that's only 15 secs out of every 120, and with only drums for haste, Crossbow is about 20 DPS better, so clearly the math still favors the Crossbow. Too bad, I really want the Black Bow to better somehow, it's so much cooler looking
#3999SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cheeky
Originally Posted by Dralmoo View Post
By modeling drums + haste potion as 480 passive haste, I gain about 40 DPS using Black Bow vs Crossbow. (Armory should be accurate but if not, 4PC T6, no DST). But that's only 15 secs out of every 120, and with only drums for haste, Crossbow is about 20 DPS better, so clearly the math still favors the Crossbow. Too bad, I really want the Black Bow to better somehow, it's so much cooler looking
The xbow is also ridiculously well itemized. The only way to better it would be to convert the +crit to Agility.
#4000SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ivaldi
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
Sorry, didn't think about the boomkin when i looked at your armory.

Here is a link to our WWS history, feel free to check the various Brutallus kills in regard to your original question.

I still personally think that either your group or raid debuffs seem to be a problem, but if your dual glaive rogue can push 2.7k (which is already very decent for a dual glaive rogue) then i'm pretty certain it's not raid debuffs.

Here the WWS history: Wow Web Stats
Thank you for that. After spending some time comparing, various WWS, it appears to be your crit alone that is causing the disparity. You have a feral druid, a shaman dropping agi, and a ret pally, which are pushing your crit so high you do more damage in 5 minutes than I can do in 6 (and much more DPS). JoW keeps you from asking for a spriest or mana potting. If anyone has further insight feel free to add, I compared one of the older WWSs to decrease the difference in gear:

Mine: WWS
His: WWS
#4001SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3mako
Originally Posted by Cheeky View Post
Luckily the mechanics changes in the expansion will remove that limitation.

I find even with Leatherworkers in the group and Bloodlust every boss fight the faster weapon (badge crossbow) wins out. Of course, haste is a very personal thing for Hunters. We all have different FPS and latency. Testing, testing, and more testing is the only way to know for sure.
I'm grateful blizzard decided that we are allowed to have "normal" autoattack damage too =) Losing the haste limitation alone should be a nice dps buff. We're like ranged rogues only better!

Maybe I'm an idiot, but since the gap between black bow and the chicken stick isn't that big on cheeky's, i like to go with the stylish option for the most part. >_>
#4002SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Macloud
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
Sorry, didn't think about the boomkin when i looked at your armory.

Here is a link to our WWS history, feel free to check the various Brutallus kills in regard to your original question.

I still personally think that either your group or raid debuffs seem to be a problem, but if your dual glaive rogue can push 2.7k (which is already very decent for a dual glaive rogue) then i'm pretty certain it's not raid debuffs.

Here the WWS history: Wow Web Stats

What 3:2 do you use? Would you mind pasting it here? I've seen a few Wind Serpent 3:2 macros but some of them are different from each other, and it confuses me as to which one has LB in the correct place.
#4003SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3beathoven
Originally Posted by Macloud View Post
What 3:2 do you use? Would you mind pasting it here? I've seen a few Wind Serpent 3:2 macros but some of them are different from each other, and it confuses me as to which one has LB in the correct place.
Thats the one i personally use. Depending the the fight i turn of the first 3 lines to do them manually when they are needed:

/use Berserker's Call
/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast Rapid Fire
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Bite
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
#4004SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Macloud
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
Thats the one i personally use. Depending the the fight i turn of the first 3 lines to do them manually when they are needed:

/use Berserker's Call
/cast Bestial Wrath
/cast Rapid Fire
/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Bite
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/cast Steady Shot
Ok thanks a ton. Does it make a huge difference that you have Bite included? I always thought that given LB is such a huge focus dump, you couldn't really compile LB and something else effectively. There'd be no focus left, even with the talents in the BM and Marks tree. Not to mention I've only ever heard of a few hunters trying bite + LB.
#4005SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3heritikyl
Originally Posted by Macloud View Post
Ok thanks a ton. Does it make a huge difference that you have Bite included? I always thought that given LB is such a huge focus dump, you couldn't really compile LB and something else effectively. There'd be no focus left, even with the talents in the BM and Marks tree. Not to mention I've only ever heard of a few hunters trying bite + LB.
I think he has that for those pet's he has trained Bite on. Since you wouldn't train bite on a Wind Serpent (due to as you said the insane focus dump that is LB) so it wouldn't get used. It's like using a Ravager with that macro, he won't cast Lightning Breath, the macro will just skip on.
#4006SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3beathoven
Actually, i do use those and i actually use Bite on my WS.

With the amount of crit i have with my gear and fully raid buffed and having both 2/2 GffT and 2/2 BD i typically have excess Focus even for my WS (not a whole lot, granted, but a little bit).

After analyzing a few of my WWS records with the WS i noticed that Bite even on Autocast and being the 2nd ability on my pet bar (after Growl) was used less than it should have been.

I did some tests on the servants in BS and noticed the same there too, and the reason is fairly simple i found out in the end. If you spam the macro you virtually make LB the top prio cast instead of Bite, which has a better Damage per focus ratio, thereby lowering the optimal DPS of your pet.

And thats why i have both disabled on my petbar now and cast them both from the macro, first Bite, then LB. The difference is not huge, but i think on average i calculated around 5-10 dps more for my pet.

With WotLK with will ofc change due to the change to Bite (lower damage and no CD anymore, basically making it the same as Claw).
#4007SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Macloud
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
Actually, i do use those and i actually use Bite on my WS.

With the amount of crit i have with my gear and fully raid buffed and having both 2/2 GffT and 2/2 BD i typically have excess Focus even for my WS (not a whole lot, granted, but a little bit).

After analyzing a few of my WWS records with the WS i noticed that Bite even on Autocast and being the 2nd ability on my pet bar (after Growl) was used less than it should have been.

I did some tests on the servants in BS and noticed the same there too, and the reason is fairly simple i found out in the end. If you spam the macro you virtually make LB the top prio cast instead of Bite, which has a better Damage per focus ratio, thereby lowering the optimal DPS of your pet.

And thats why i have both disabled on my petbar now and cast them both from the macro, first Bite, then LB. The difference is not huge, but i think on average i calculated around 5-10 dps more for my pet.

With WotLK with will ofc change due to the change to Bite (lower damage and no CD anymore, basically making it the same as Claw).
That makes sense. I transferred the other day to a guild that was basically on Muru instead of Brut, and while I haven't been on a Brut kill, I was in on my old guild's Brut attempts. I've raided with a cat since I rolled my hunter. Period. I'm used to the DPS of Claw, the versatility of a pet that can dash in and out, and although I've had a windserpent forever, I didn't really use him too much until my unbuffed crit rating hit about 32 with my 4 piece T6. The guild I'm in now actually HAS a Hunter group, so I've signed up for their next Sunwell clear of Kalecgos up to Twins, and I'm hoping to test out the Windserpent more effectively that way.

The only time I really ever got the chance to test out my own was on Shade of Akama, Teron, and Illidari Council, but even then Council has WAY too much pet management to really test out a macro that has every pet ability manually spammed. Your Windserpent Macro looked really intriguing, so I'm hoping to test that in a few days. I've pushed up to around 1693-1700 (on Brut tests) or so in a 1 BM Hunter + 3 Lock group with only Rapid Fire as a haste buff (It was a survival attempt, not a DPS test), so I'm curious to see what will happen with this Windserpent, fully buffed (I usually cap out around 38-41 raid crit), with Drums, Rapid Fire, and proper Bloodlust rotations.


I'm also in dire need of a CV and at least the Teron cape to completely max out my pre-Sunwell gear, so I know those upgrades will play a huge role as well. I have a Felspine that I use too, and I just use hit food to make up the hit I lose with the swap from the BT spear. Even then, I'm still below cap.
#4008SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Zuktar
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
Thank you for that. After spending some time comparing, various WWS, it appears to be your crit alone that is causing the disparity. You have a feral druid, a shaman dropping agi, and a ret pally, which are pushing your crit so high you do more damage in 5 minutes than I can do in 6 (and much more DPS). JoW keeps you from asking for a spriest or mana potting. If anyone has further insight feel free to add, I compared one of the older WWSs to decrease the difference in gear:

Mine: WWS
His: WWS
You rate of fire: 1,57 shots per second
His rate of fire: 1,75 shots per second

If you give yourself a 1,75 shots per second rate in your WWS, you end up +- 240 dps higher. And ofcourse all those fantastic partymembers that popped up in his report would benefit you as well.
#4009SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
Actually, i do use those and i actually use Bite on my WS.

With the amount of crit i have with my gear and fully raid buffed and having both 2/2 GffT and 2/2 BD i typically have excess Focus even for my WS (not a whole lot, granted, but a little bit).

After analyzing a few of my WWS records with the WS i noticed that Bite even on Autocast and being the 2nd ability on my pet bar (after Growl) was used less than it should have been.

I did some tests on the servants in BS and noticed the same there too, and the reason is fairly simple i found out in the end. If you spam the macro you virtually make LB the top prio cast instead of Bite, which has a better Damage per focus ratio, thereby lowering the optimal DPS of your pet.

And thats why i have both disabled on my petbar now and cast them both from the macro, first Bite, then LB. The difference is not huge, but i think on average i calculated around 5-10 dps more for my pet.

With WotLK with will ofc change due to the change to Bite (lower damage and no CD anymore, basically making it the same as Claw).
You have the right idea but the wrong implementation and the reasons backwards.

Firstly, you are right that Bite has better DPF looking at the spells outright. 3.43 vs 2.12. And Bite benefits from a couple less obvious things as well. It has 5% extra crit since our pet's inherent crit is 5% for melee while for spells it is 0%. And, now I'm moving onto uncertain ground, since LB is a spell it should only get 50% damage on crits, but I haven't in fact looked into it. Looks heavily in favour of Bite. But it isn't. LB scales, and even if it does so badly, it is still great. Also LB ignores armor (nature damage). That leads to LB hitting harder per hit, but still remains below Bite on DPF.
What does that mean? It means that when you have focus overflowing, LB is king, when it is restricted then Bite is better. If your pet can fire LB, it should. Don't force Bite ahead of it. It is better DPF, but what does that help you when that 'saved' focus is then wasted because you can't spend it fast enough?
What Bite is actually good for is to fill those critdroughts with something. Our pets generate 48 focus in 4 secs (assuming 2/2 BD), 2 short of LB, but enough for Bite. So if LB isn't fired (and you have no Bite), then a couple of stringed crits will waste a lot of focus. With Bite it means the wastage will be less. And if the critdrought continues then on the next tick of focus LB will be ready again anyway.
#4010SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3teknikal
Originally Posted by beathoven View Post
I typically push around 2700-2800 on Brut, so i took the liberty to check your armory.

First thing i noticed is your very low hit rating. 103 means you're 39 points short of the cap. Switch your yellow crit gems with hit gems would be a good start.

Next thing is your neck. If you're exalted with SSO and (hopefully) Aldor get the melee neck. It's really good and a lot better than what you are using at the moment.

Third thing, instead of using those 2 1h weapons either try to get a Shivering Felspine or the 150 badge 2h weapon ([The Blade of Harbingers]).

Other than that it of course depends heavily on group makeup. If you're in a bad group you can easily loose several 100 dps. We typically have 3 hunters (2 bm, 1 survival), 1 feral druid tank and 1 resto shammy in one group, which is not absolutely optimal but close to (warrior instead of the survival hunter and an enhancement instead of a resto shammy would be).

The rest only boils down to how good you do your shot rotation. I typically use a form of the 3:2 macro and spam that.
Hmm seems like armory had me in my pvp gear. With my full raiding gear on, im in 4/5 t6 using the Shivering Felspine and either the BBOTB or the Xbow. Im hit capped and playing with about 50ms. While using the xbow i usually use Cloak and Fiends and have a speed of 1.93 and i just spam my Manito macro like crazy. But the thing is, would i gain more dps using BBOTB, and gaining my troll racial of 1% crit or do you think sticking with the xbow is better? Ive been marks my whole raiding career i guess you can call it that, and i knew Brutallus was a dps check so i had to go BM to cover all the other dps that cant perform where they should be. Not because of lack of gear or skill but just because there class cant push the numbers.
#4011SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Ivaldi
Originally Posted by teknikal View Post
Hmm seems like armory had me in my pvp gear. With my full raiding gear on, im in 4/5 t6 using the Shivering Felspine and either the BBOTB or the Xbow. Im hit capped and playing with about 50ms. While using the xbow i usually use Cloak and Fiends and have a speed of 1.93 and i just spam my Manito macro like crazy. But the thing is, would i gain more dps using BBOTB, and gaining my troll racial of 1% crit or do you think sticking with the xbow is better? Ive been marks my whole raiding career i guess you can call it that, and i knew Brutallus was a dps check so i had to go BM to cover all the other dps that cant perform where they should be. Not because of lack of gear or skill but just because there class cant push the numbers.
His response was actually to mine, which was commenting on your post. The short of it is, I either misread several times, or am dyslexic, cause I swear up and down your post said 2700 not 2070 before. As for which bow to use, that is a question of personal preference. Try them both out, several attempts, and see which one does more DPS for you. As Cheeky said, it's based on latency, frame rate, and what kind of cereal you had for breakfast.
#4012SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3wolverton
I see alot of folks here recommending agility gems for thier gear, i have recently become a fan of atk power gems as a beast hunter. I have started using some of the 20 atk power gems (bold ornate ruby), my reasoning for this is that 22% of my ranged attack power translates into pet attack power. I was wondering what the rest of hunter community felt about attack power gems vs agil or other gems.


I am sure some will do an armory on me and that is fine, yes my hit cap is only 80 at the moment. I never focused heavily on hit rating after i looked over the dps meters on some of the raids and saw that my misses where low. I guess i need to sit down and try to run the numbers and see how much dps i am losing based on an 80 hit rating vs a 142 hit rating with lower atk power. I am typically in the top 5 in dmg done on the boss fights and that is using the WWS that the guild runs on the fights.

In terms of raiding we are in MH just up to working on archi and dropped the first 2 bosses in BT. I am saving badges for gems and possibly new legs.

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments?
#4013SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3MetallicaRulez0
@Wolverton: Your Hit and Crit are both incredibly low for where you are in content. I'd wager a guess that even though you have ~100-120ish more AP then most Hunters at that gear level, your overall DPS will be lower than socketing Agility and Hit. Crit gives your pet more focus, and Hit is probably your best bet until capped, gem-wise.

Just as a comparison, my Hunter has slightly worse gear than you progress-wise, and I'm sitting at 2k AP with Hawk, Hit Cap, and about 31% Crit unbuffed. Whether that extra AP is worth ~8% Crit and 4% Hit is up to you.
#4014SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Cranch
Wolverton, good to see another Perenolde theory crafting hunter posting!

Your attribute weights work out to (assuming a few raid buffs) :

Agility + 1	0.642
AP + 1		0.269
Crit + 1	0.570
Hit + 1		0.835
Int + 1		0.000
Armor Pen + 1	0.082
Haste + 1	0.754
(See Cheeky's spreadsheet for details.)

So, as you can see, a 20 ap gem is worth 5.4 incremental dps, versus a 10 agi gem being worth 6.4 incremental dps. A +5 hit 5 agi gem, however, is worth 7.4 dps to you. (This includes the added damage from your pet.)

Of course, changing your gems around for agi or hit isn't going to make a practical difference in your dps. What does it matter if you gain ~20 dps by upgrading all of your gems? Your group buffs (e.g., Leader of the Pack, a shaman, etc.) and a solid shot rotation will increase your dps far more than tweaking your gems.

Now as to suggestions. Possible item upgrades that don't depend on luck or on Blizzard not to fix the possibly-broken weightstone buff would be:

The Blade of Harbingers		+37 dps
Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots		+14 dps
Trousers of the Scryer's...	+20 dps   (costs you the 2 piece bonus)
You can plug in the above attribute weights into Loot Rank for WoW to rate various items that do depend on luck. Be sure to update the weights as your gear or talents change.

Oddly enough, you really only have the 4 piece T6 set with bonus to look forward to in MH/BT; everything else pre-Sunwell is a ~15 dps gain or less for you and dependent on luck. You can probably figure out why I only run ZA and a Sunwell PUG nowadays.
#4015SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Baandun
Gear

This is my hunter: The World of Warcraft Armory
Note about my armory: I do not use the S1 helm for raiding, I use the T4 helm with a Relentless Earthstorm Diamond and a +4 hit +4 agi gem. I also have the T4 legs with the same enchant as the legs my armory shows.

I'm in a T5 guild and I pull around 650ish-1000 DPS if I don't have to move much. I have 1810 AP with Hawk and 100 HR with T4, but 85 with badge pants. My main concern is that my crit is very low (21.60%), and I'm wondering how I can get it higher, while keeping my hit rating high.

I'm saving badges for the badge bow. I also accidentally picked the caster kara rep ring, and am going to have that fixed, as I am only a few hundred rep away from exalted with the violet eye >>. So I just want to know what else I should do.

Also, I use the 3:2 macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

What exactly is the proper thing for me to be doing? Just spam it, or use arcane/multishot whenever CD is up? Just arcane in between steadies?
EDIT: fixed a typo

Last edited by Baandun : 07/28/08 at 2:46 AM.
#4016SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3teknikal
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
His response was actually to mine, which was commenting on your post. The short of it is, I either misread several times, or am dyslexic, cause I swear up and down your post said 2700 not 2070 before. As for which bow to use, that is a question of personal preference. Try them both out, several attempts, and see which one does more DPS for you. As Cheeky said, it's based on latency, frame rate, and what kind of cereal you had for breakfast.
Yea i guess ill have to just test things out, hopefully it won't cause too much trouble. Thanks for the help =]
#4017SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Macloud
Originally Posted by Baandun View Post
This is my hunter: The World of Warcraft Armory
Note about my armory: I do not use the S1 helm for raiding, I use the T4 helm with a Relentless Earthstorm Diamond and a +4 hit +4 agi gem. I also have the T4 legs with the same enchant as the legs my armory shows.

I'm in a T5 guild and I pull around 650ish-1000 DPS if I don't have to move much. I have 1810 AP with Hawk and 100 HR with T4, but 85 with badge pants. My main concern is that my crit is very low (21.60%), and I'm wondering how I can get it higher, while keeping my hit rating high.

I'm saving badges for the badge bow. I also accidentally picked the caster kara rep ring, and am going to have that fixed, as I am only a few hundred rep away from exalted with the violet eye >>. So I just want to know what else I should do.

Also, I use the 3:2 macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/cast !Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

What exactly is the proper thing for me to be doing? Just spam it, or use arcane/multishot whenever CD is up? Just arcane in between steadies?
EDIT: fixed a typo

Just wanted to give you the same version of your macro without the annoying "click" or as some people put it "Whoosh" sounds. It's been posted before, but I think it got buried somewhere.

#showtooltip Auto Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

As for your gear, T5 is completely loaded with Hit. In fact, it's got so much you'll be dropping a ton once you make the switch from T5 to T6. The best gem combination to solve your current problems (since you shouldn't waste epic gems on T5 gear just yet)

Agi/stam - Shifting Nightseye
Agi/hit - Glinting Noble Topaz
Crit Rating - Smooth Dawnstone


The gems should help with some of your stat gaps, but keep in mind that you WILL gain lots of hit once you start accumulating T5. T4 is just awful for stats, so for the most part, other stats are made up through the off pieces like boots, belt, neck, trinkets, etc. You could start with the 25 badge neck. I've had mine since Hydross, simply because the hit it provides is well balanced with the Agi/Stam/AP it provides. It's essentially your neck + hit included, so it's win/win. Food is also a lot more important here. It's not until you have decent amounts of T5 and T6 that it becomes easier to keep your stats at a relative balance. It's perfectly possible at your gear level, just a tad harder without consumables or trinkets.

I would also suggest trying to grab the Hourglass of the Unraveler from BM (to replace your Skyguard Cross). It's essentially one of THE best trinkets in game, even as a blue, and there are loads of players who still have one well into BT simply because they can't get their hands on a Tsunami talisman (Leo), Madness of the Betrayer (Council), or even a DST (Gruul). That's 32 Crit rating right there. Just as well, replacing your current scope with a 28 crit Scope would help, as would obtaining the badge bow whenever you're able. It already comes with 14 hit and some added Crit rating.

Last edited by Macloud : 07/28/08 at 10:11 AM.
#4018SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Baandun
Originally Posted by Macloud View Post
Just wanted to give you the same version of your macro without the annoying "click" or as some people put it "Whoosh" sounds. It's been posted before, but I think it got buried somewhere.

#showtooltip Auto Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast Steady shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

As for your gear, T5 is completely loaded with Hit. In fact, it's got so much you'll be dropping a ton once you make the switch from T5 to T6. The best gem combination to solve your current problems (since you shouldn't waste epic gems on T5 gear just yet)

Agi/stam - Shifting Nightseye
Agi/hit - Glinting Noble Topaz
Crit Rating - Smooth Dawnstone


The gems should help with some of your stat gaps, but keep in mind that you WILL gain lots of hit once you start accumulating T5. T4 is just awful for stats, so for the most part, other stats are made up through the off pieces like boots, belt, neck, trinkets, etc. You could start with the 25 badge neck. I've had mine since Hydross, simply because the hit it provides is well balanced with the Agi/Stam/AP it provides. It's essentially your neck + hit included, so it's win/win. Food is also a lot more important here. It's not until you have decent amounts of T5 and T6 that it becomes easier to keep your stats at a relative balance. It's perfectly possible at your gear level, just a tad harder without consumables or trinkets.

I would also suggest trying to grab the Hourglass of the Unraveler from BM (to replace your Skyguard Cross). It's essentially one of THE best trinkets in game, even as a blue, and there are loads of players who still have one well into BT simply because they can't get their hands on a Tsunami talisman (Leo), Madness of the Betrayer (Council), or even a DST (Gruul). That's 32 Crit rating right there. Just as well, replacing your current scope with a 28 crit Scope would help, as would obtaining the badge bow whenever you're able. It already comes with 14 hit and some added Crit rating.
Thanks for the help, I figured as I might collect T5 I would see better stats (or course). I just have to have some good luck.

As for the badge neck, I'm currently at 80 badges so I wanted to save up some more and get the badge bow. Then 25 more badges shouldn't be hard to get for the badge neck. I wasn't planning on upgrading the awful scope on my bow just yet, because it's somewhat expensive and I should have that new bow soon. Although, I was thinking of getting the SSO exalted neck. I have a ton of banked Aldor rep items, and could get from where I am now to exalted. I haven't seen the Hourglass drop yet since I've run BM, so I'll have to try and run it some more.

I don't want to replace any Glinting Noble Topaz with Smooth Dawnstone yet, as I'll lose some crit. Though as I get more +hit pieces (Hoping to get Pauldrons of Primal Fury from ZA).

Food is something I forgot about, but I usually use buy pots from the AH. Now I'll try to remember to pick up food as well =). Thanks for that macro, too. I'd seen it before but I usually turn off in-game sound to hear in vent better and to improve my FPS. Though I keep sound on out of raids and when I'm at a new encounter.

Also, one more thing -- kind of a side note: I just ran an H Mech mostly mashing that macro. Previously I wouldn't mash it, and I would just use arcane and multi when the CD was up. This time I mashed it, while using some arcane shots, and multi into groups. But for the most part on bosses mashing the macro. I did see a boost in my DPS. Normally I would have pulled, just guessing, but 800 or 900 DPS. But on that run I never dropped below 900 DPS, and getting more than 1000 DPS on all the boss fights. On the last boss, I pulled 1200 DPS. Not geat, but better than what I did before.

Last edited by Baandun : 07/29/08 at 2:20 AM.
#4019SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Tithene
BM hunter in pvp gear vs. pve gear

BMB Forum,

All my answers to date have been gotten in past posts thru-out EJ. However, recently I have come into a situation that I cannot find discussion on in these forums. My guild leader has been ousting people who have been getting t4+ tokens in raids and turning them in for pvp gear instead of the pve gear...along with general crack-down on anyone who pvps more than they raid. I, being Hunter class lead, and having used Cheeky's spreadsheet have seen that the occ. piece of pvp gear appears to be better than pve equivalent. I am wearing, for instance: The World of Warcraft Armory (I apologize if that link is incorrectly added to this post. I don't *do* posts in forums). However, I have a few BM hunters who are almost exclusively in pvp gear and may get booted from the guild if I cannot make a good argument about how the gear is not hurting their dps/abilities.

So, dear forum, (1)is pvp gear acceptable as raiding gear? (2)When does it become a hindrance and not a benefit, if it is acceptable some or all of the time? (3)What criteria should I use for assessing my hunters who are showing up to raid in almost full pvp? We are a t4/t5 guild atm; (4)does the level that you are raiding at make a difference in acceptability of pvp gear on BM hunters?

Ty for any advice you can give.

Last edited by Tithene : 07/29/08 at 10:28 AM.
#4020SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Faerdael
Originally Posted by Tithene View Post
BMB Forum,

All my answers to date have been gotten in past posts thru-out EJ. However, recently I have come into a situation that I cannot find discussion on in these forums. My guild leader has been ousting people who have been getting t4+ tokens in raids and turning them in for pvp gear instead of the pve gear...along with general crack-down on anyone who pvps more than they raid. I, being Hunter class lead, and having used Cheeky's spreadsheet have seen that the occ. piece of pvp gear appears to be better than pve equivalent. I am wearing, for instance: The World of Warcraft Armory (I apologize if that link is incorrectly added to this post. I don't *do* posts in forums). However, I have a few BM hunters who are almost exclusively in pvp gear and may get booted from the guild if I cannot make a good argument about how the gear is not hurting their dps/abilities.

So, dear forum, (1)is pvp gear acceptable as raiding gear? (2)When does it become a hindrance and not a benefit, if it is acceptable some or all of the time? (3)What criteria should I use for assessing my hunters who are showing up to raid in almost full pvp? We are a t4/t5 guild atm; (4)does the level that you are raiding at make a difference in acceptability of pvp gear on BM hunters?

Ty for any advice you can give.
Well, I for one have a T6 helm banked in favor of my S3 for raiding right now. Its pretty much a superior helm, set bonus excluded. Some pieces are, of course better than others. Regarding season 3 and 4 gear, the helm is serviceable thru T6 content while the chest, legs and shoulders will do fine in T5 (in fact, S2 shoulders are comporable to T5, assuming you don't need the hit). All in all, its generally better than any kara/gruul/mags gear they are going to grab, aside from a few pieces (the rings, Aran cloak, and DST are all that come to mind, to be honest).

The problem alot of classes have with using pvp gear is a decided lack of hit (or spell hit, as it were) and somewhat low spell damage stat bonus (exlucing weapons). Hunters do not have this problem, as Blizzard decided to add a nice amount of hit rating to our gear, and we gain more in terms of DPS via pure stats than casters would. Also a slightly lower mana pool, lack of mana regen on gear isn't too big an issue. Most of us are trying to figure out how much leather gear we can get away with wearing anyway. Your GM needs to allow people to maximize their DPS instead of guaging the viabilty of raiding gear based on its lack of resilience.

You should really be evaluating your hunters based on their collective gear and spec, and not based on how much resilience they wear. Are they hit capped (or at least to 122, where they can be capped by eating [Spicy Hot Talbuk])? Are they specced properly to raid? Are they gemming, enchanting for raiding? If so, then there is really not an issue here, and your leader should take some time to learn some more about hunter gear, or at least listen to his class leader about it.
#4021SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Barradin
I totally agree tithene,

Personally, I just looked into a pvp SV build and found that even with all badge/za/MH gear, popping on 4 pieces of arena gear still outperformed my raid gear (and I don't have a good arena rating for any of the fancy S3/4 pieces).

So in short, yes, as long as you can keep up your hit, have the right rotation, don't run out of mana, etc. It's irrelevant whether you have that extra resiliance or not.

Go back to your raid leader/GM and tell him he shouldn't be so picky about pvp gear. Best way is to show him the meters to prove it:P
#4022SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ramija
Dont Forget that many Raidguilds use PvP/Arena Gear while Progress Phases. The Ammount of Stamina on these items allow you to try a little Longer in Wipetrys and the Resilence lowers the Damage taken from Dots (Bloodboil for Example)

Like Faerdael and Barradin said, when you get the right Stats on other Slots , PvP Gear can be an Upgrade
#4023SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Teldra
Your raid leader needs to pull his head out. If people (such as yourself) are doing research on their class, they undoubtedly know more than this person. At the very least you as lead should be able to tell your hunters what's ok and what's not. He sounds like a micro manager of the worst kind to me...

My current guild aggressively pursues a hands off approach to management. Everyone's expected to know their class and play it well. Those doing blatantly silly things like socketing +strength gems aren't invited to raid, but if you want to raid as some off spec and can pull it off, more power to you.

As far as assessing your hunters, look at the WWS. You can easily see who's missing a lot of shots, who's doing good damage, who's managing their pet well, etc. Most hunters will tell you skill matters far more than equipment. WWS is great for assessing those skills.
#4024SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tithene
Ty for the data. I myself have never pvp'd, so I was at a loss to defend my hunters. From your data, it looks like what I need to do is take my hunters out for BL mobs and Dr. Boom tests recorded on WWS. I've started doing this w/ my recruits.

Should I encourage hunters to pvp for such piece of gear? Are we only talking about filling up the main slots for armor (legs, chest, wrist, helm, gloves, boots) or other pieces. Where would *I* go to start learning how pvp items can be gained? (my guild's GL and officers will think I've lost a nut...I've always been adamantly anti-pvp)
#4025SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
Faerdael
Do arena matches definitely. As a class leader in previous guilds, doing t4-t5 content I required my hunters to do arena matches, at least for a helm. In fact, I recall once doing 5's with 4 hunters and a prot pally (ouch) - just to get points for the week. Pretty much, our attitude was if you are not doing arena as a hunter, then you weren't doing all you could to improve yourself and thereby improve the guild. I would recommend any hunter not in T6 content to get their S3 Helm pronto (or S4 if you have the rating).

The stuff you will earn from arena points is going to be decidedly better than the S2 gear from farming honor in BG's, I don't think they added hit to most items until season 3, and take less actual play hours than BG grinding, which could be better used trying to farm up badges. For raiding in season 3 gear, assuming your hunters dont have any ranking of note, the [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Helm] is clearly the best item. [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Leggings] are slightly worse than T5, although probably slightly better than the [Void Reaver Greaves]. The [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Armor] will work fine, but is about even with Hero MGT drop, so I'd spend points elsewhere initially. The [Vengeful Gladiator's Waraxe] is also serviceable, and about on par with [Trollbane], with the latter only really pulling ahead if you are hit capped (survival hunters excluded).

The guardian's gear is pretty good as well, however if you are in all pvp gear with only a [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes], you are only going to end up with 85 hit rating, which obviously isn't going to get the job done, and you will probably be rather thin on AP. When I was in this position, the helm was clearly going to be the best upgrade (and hardest to replace) and came first. Bear in mind that the 2.4 badge gear is better than any pvp gear for raiding (helm excluded) (some 2.3 stuff is better too), and I would advise pvp gear be used to fill a "need" slot. Shoulders, for example, should be pretty easy to come by, from either ZA or VR. The rings and neck are rather underwhelming for pve and I'd stick to Kara/badge stuff there. The only things that are going to be better than T5 stuff outright are the Helm and Shoulders, and your hunters probably will not be seeing the shoulders.

As far as setting up an arena team goes, I believe you still need to goto Gadgetzan to get a charter. Its about 80g for a 2v2 team.

Last edited by Faerdael : Today at 12:00 PM.
#4026SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Macloud
Originally Posted by Baandun View Post
Thanks for the help, I figured as I might collect T5 I would see better stats (or course). I just have to have some good luck.

As for the badge neck, I'm currently at 80 badges so I wanted to save up some more and get the badge bow. Then 25 more badges shouldn't be hard to get for the badge neck. I wasn't planning on upgrading the awful scope on my bow just yet, because it's somewhat expensive and I should have that new bow soon. Although, I was thinking of getting the SSO exalted neck. I have a ton of banked Aldor rep items, and could get from where I am now to exalted. I haven't seen the Hourglass drop yet since I've run BM, so I'll have to try and run it some more.

I don't want to replace any Glinting Noble Topaz with Smooth Dawnstone yet, as I'll lose some crit. Though as I get more +hit pieces (Hoping to get Pauldrons of Primal Fury from ZA).

Food is something I forgot about, but I usually use buy pots from the AH. Now I'll try to remember to pick up food as well =). Thanks for that macro, too. I'd seen it before but I usually turn off in-game sound to hear in vent better and to improve my FPS. Though I keep sound on out of raids and when I'm at a new encounter.

Also, one more thing -- kind of a side note: I just ran an H Mech mostly mashing that macro. Previously I wouldn't mash it, and I would just use arcane and multi when the CD was up. This time I mashed it, while using some arcane shots, and multi into groups. But for the most part on bosses mashing the macro. I did see a boost in my DPS. Normally I would have pulled, just guessing, but 800 or 900 DPS. But on that run I never dropped below 900 DPS, and getting more than 1000 DPS on all the boss fights. On the last boss, I pulled 1200 DPS. Not geat, but better than what I did before.

Glad to hear it helped! That macro was definitely a god send for me too when one of my guildies from my old Garithos guild showed it to me. Back then I was manually timing Steady, Autos without using KCs, and was only pulling 1200 DPS or so on Vashj. Needless to say those numbers jumped tremendously when I was introduced to the macro.
#4027SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
 Aeverius
Originally Posted by Faerdael View Post
As far as setting up an arena team goes, I believe you still need to goto Gadgetzan to get a charter. Its about 80g for a 2v2 team.
It can be done in Nagrand and Blade's Edge as well. Also, the cost is 40g per person, so 80g is correct for 2v2; 3v3 is 120g and 5v5 is 200g.

Last edited by Aeverius : 07/31/08 at 12:14 PM. Reason: clarification
#4028SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Critzkrieg
Hello there,

I recently acquired myself a Dragonspine Trophy from Gruul. It was a very unexpected drop and I am not exactly at, or anywhere near for that matter, optimal gear. Aside from changing all my pvp gear around, if it were a decision of what trinket combination would be better? Keeping Hourglass of the Unraveller and Dragonspine Trophy, or using a bloodlust brooch along with the dragonspine trophy?
#4029SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3KraxisSingular
While I have a certain love for the Hourglass, and by extention the Tsunami Talisman, there is no doubt that the DST beats it hands down. And going Hourglass and DST would not synergize will with Bestial Wrath. So DST and Bloodlust Brooch. Don't sell the Hourglass though, might come in handy later.
#4030SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Velenorx
Originally Posted by Ivaldi View Post
*snip*

I understand group synergy, however so far I have not seen that group synergy will make up 400 DPS.

*snip*

I have to disagree. Recently i have had just that example on Brutalles. 2 different nights (and IDs):

Points both Raids have in common:
-SV-Hunter
-SA,FF,CoR on Brutallus
-my personal elixirs/Food, etc

Night 1:
Group-setup:Resto-shaman (GoA,Strenght), Feral, SV-Hunter, BM, BM
Ret Pally was in the Raid for Seal of everlasting Mana and 3% Crit, so 3x Haste Pot
I was doing roughly 2400 DPS with is well in my normal Range of 2300-2400

Night 2:
I had only a Warri for Battle-Shout as Group support
No Ret Pally in Raid
I had huge Mana Issus, even had to switch to AotV for some seconds
I was doing roughy 1700-1800 DPs only.
Granted we wiped a few times that night and some DPS was lost during those we are going to wipe times.

I excluded Trys in which i got Burn.

So I say Group/Raid-Support can be a major DPS loss, because they add up.
#4031SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Macrolol
Simple question- S4 Helm or T6. I can't get the SS to work at the moment, and I'm first in line for the KJ helm, but I'd like an honest opinion on whether i should replace my T6.

Oh and CVoS doesn't exist for me.
#4032SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Velenorx
Originally Posted by Macrolol View Post
Simple question- S4 Helm or T6. I can't get the SS to work at the moment, and I'm first in line for the KJ helm, but I'd like an honest opinion on whether i should replace my T6.

Oh and CVoS doesn't exist for me.
If you can make use of the +hit even S3 is better than T6, so take S4, but it's best if you check on Cheekey Spreadsheet.
#4033SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3CROSSKILL
haste v. armor pen and other various things

I'm currently (partially out of boredom and partially to test it) rolling a hasted hunter. My intent, due to GCD's, is to drop my shot speed using passive haste to 1.7sec on the Xbow. Once I am that low I will be looking to pick up a 3.0 speed harder hitting bow (PRAYING for the Brutal Glad) which should give me a "normalish" 1.9 BM attack speed on a very hard hitting bow.

Bearing in mind I'm trying to stack haste and need to reach 236 passive haste rating to reach this, I've currently run into a situation I don't know what to do with.

Is armor penetration going to be as crucial to current end-game boss fights as I've been told and read? My guild is currently 5/5, 6/9 and learning Mother. I've been told that especially for the Illidan fight armor pen is going to be crucial by a few more progressed hunters on the server...if it is...is Angelista's revenge going to be worth the 60 badges it costs compared to the rings I am using now?

here is my current armory... CrosskillPvE

Gear that will change for hasted set will be...
Head - Brutal Glad
Neck - Endless Nightmares
Back - Cloak of Fiends
Belt - Valestalker Girdle
Boots - Quickstrider Mocassins
Bow - 3.0 speed (Betrayer or S3/4 Bow)
Trinket1 - Berzerkers Call

The full set should put me at the following (with AoTH on)
agi: 587
ap: 2074
hit: 123
crit: 27.79
p-haste 237
shot speed: 1.9
shots/sec 31.57894737

Please remember that the purpose of stacking this haste is to carry a slower speed, harder hitting bow but keep a 1:1 rotation as BM. My primary set outside of raid situations is a pvp set.

Additional information:

typical raid buffs I receive every raid that are pertinent: MOTW, Might, Kings, Wisdom, WoA Tot, Imp FF. The low agi/crit are not a major concern to me as I am pushing 40% crit and 2500+ap in most raids. I also use hit food to reach cap and typically (thanks to an alt elixir master) use major agility and draenic wisdom...

any thoughts, comments, concerns, and/or criticism would be appreciated...
#4034SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Krystallynn
Long time reader, first time poster.

BM Hunter, averaging around 1400 dps, but wanted to play with a WS for the frequent fights where my pet just has to sit on the sidelines or he dies. I was under the impression that the Lightning Breath macros here has the pet sit on the side and just shoot, but they all have the Kill Command in them, which appears to make the pet close and puts me in the same situation I was in.

So, questions:

Using the macro (tried several I found here) my pet does nothing, just sit there, until I tell it to go attack, then it start shooting and Kill commanding, along with normal melee. I seem to be missing something, but what?

Is it possible to have a macro where the WS just shoots and doesn't close?
Is it the Kill command that's making the pet close?
Is it possible to do decent dps without the Kill command? This one I'm pretty sure is "no".

Thanks in advance for the help. I normally use a ravager but there are a few fights he evaporates on and I'd like a viable alternative.
#4035SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3CROSSKILL
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
I normally use a ravager but there are a few fights he evaporates on and I'd like a viable alternative.
Quick questions/suggestions...

I used to have a similar problem. Even with the fact I was keeping MP up constant, my pet was dying. Check two things if you want to fix this also...

these may be idiot checks but they may be the problem also, so no offense if you have addressed these already:

1 - check your pet spec and make sure that you are carrying avoidance and proper resistance for the zone you are in...I spec my ravager with shadow/fire since we run MH/BT all week.

2 - ask your healers if they're tossing your pet anything at all...if they aren't they they apparently have no clue how a BM Hunter operates (no offense to your healers - mine didn't until I explained some things to them also). Even with my MP up constantly with improved MP I can't outheal the damage my pet takes on most of the boss fights. Its well worth it for your raid overall to have the healers use small hots on the hunter pets. Its a negatable mana loss considering the dps and bonuses they add for the raid.

*NOTE - if you are working BT don't even bother trying to keep a pet up on Naj'entus. None of our hunters can in there and the healing is too intense for the healers to help out. Let alone the fact that an 8k frost burst will kill almost any pet. I let mine die and then rez him right after the frost blast when I know BW cooldown will be up.

Hope some of this helps...
#4036SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Krystallynn
Originally Posted by CROSSKILL View Post
*NOTE - if you are working BT don't even bother trying to keep a pet up on Naj'entus. None of our hunters can in there and the healing is too intense for the healers to help out. Let alone the fact that an 8k frost burst will kill almost any pet. I let mine die and then rez him right after the frost blast when I know BW cooldown will be up.
Bingo.

Naj - pet dead
Supremus - pet dead
Illidan - pet dead
Sunwell robots - pet dead

I can keep him alive, but it's a lot of work and I do more dps with him just standing at my side staying alive than trying to work in heals, pulling him out, etc. I'm not an uber hunter who has l33t skills, I'm just an old PvE hunter doing the best he can with what he has

We have shamans, my pet gets accidental heals, but no healer's going to actually heal my pet

Thanks for the reply
#4037SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Cranch
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
Bingo.

Naj - pet dead
Supremus - pet dead
Illidan - pet dead
Sunwell robots - pet dead

I can keep him alive, but it's a lot of work and I do more dps with him just standing at my side staying alive than trying to work in heals, pulling him out, etc. I'm not an uber hunter who has l33t skills, I'm just an old PvE hunter doing the best he can with what he has

We have shamans, my pet gets accidental heals, but no healer's going to actually heal my pet
I've used my pet on Naj, Sup, and the robots with no problems. The 2xT5 bonus helps a lot, of course, but a bit of pet management goes a long way to keeping them alive. E.g., for Sup, I pull the pet off for the kiting phase. We use AoE heals for the robots, and I just keep my pet topped off for Naj (with sta food if necessary, and I get a warlock most of the time. I think my pet has ~8-9k hp for Naj [been a while.])
#4038SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Squinky001
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
Naj - pet dead
Supremus - pet dead
Illidan - pet dead
Sunwell robots - pet dead
I've never had much problem keeping my pet up on Naj'entus, only lose her on Supremus if I forget to recall her during kiting phase and thus she runs through a volcano, only lose her on Illidan if don't pull her out of fire and haven't lost her on the robots that I can recall. Granted we have some awesome healers who will toss my pet a heal if they can and, because she's in melee, she catches spill-over heals from chain heal and the like, but it's not impossible to keep your pet up on these fights.

Really, the only fight I have a lot of problem with is Illidari Council. I tend to play it safe and keep her at my side for most of the fight, sending her in pretty much just to BW when it's clear.
#4039SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
Krystallynn
Any thoughts on my my pet just sits there and doesn't shoot lightning breath until I manually tell it to attack while I'm macroing?

Last edited by Krystallynn : 08/02/08 at 6:22 PM.
#4040SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Squinky001
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
Any thoughts on my my pet just sits there and doesn't shoot lightning breath until I manually tell it to attack while I'm macroing?
A pet will not attack until you tell it to. If you don't have LB on autocast it will not cast it until you press your macro with it in. Also, a windserpent as I recall has to get very close to melee range to cast LB so trying to get it to just attack with LB is probably not going to fix your pet dying problems. The best advice is to practice pet management skills to keep them from dying to AOE best you can.
#4041SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3KraxisSingular
Originally Posted by Squinky001 View Post
A pet will not attack until you tell it to. If you don't have LB on autocast it will not cast it until you press your macro with it in. Also, a windserpent as I recall has to get very close to melee range to cast LB so trying to get it to just attack with LB is probably not going to fix your pet dying problems. The best advice is to practice pet management skills to keep them from dying to AOE best you can.
LB = 20 yards. Enough to be troublesome, but you can move to a position where it won't be so. But in most cases it is a matter of pulling the pet back. And sending it in it...
#4042SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3serbian
Naj - pet dead
Supremus - pet dead
Illidan - pet dead
Sunwell robots - pet dead
God bless Chain heals :P
#4043SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Felixalias
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
Naj - pet dead
Supremus - pet dead
Illidan - pet dead
Sunwell robots - pet dead
I can't say I agree with this list; On Naj'entus, as long as I use the two-piece t5 set bonus my pet survives just fine (with only 2 resto shamans in the raid). On Supremus, I don't even use the set bonus and my pet has no problem at all surviving. I don't have any specific resistances trained for these fights either (I train it with shadow and nature). On Supremus, I make sure to pull my pet out a little less than 10 seconds before the kite phase, and it takes virtually no damage the entire fight.

I haven't done Illidan or the sunwell, so I can't say for those.
#4044SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3mmatrix
Hi guys..

I heard the following are capped haste..

Haste cap
2.7: 32
2.8: 85
2.9: 137
3: 190


However, Im using the xbow of relentless... It is at speed 1.92 for me now.. with rapid fire it will be 1.37.. isnt it clipping my steadyshot??

And isnt the optimal att spd with haste is 1.9?
Btw, here is an armory of my hunter..

The World of Warcraft Armory
#4045SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Khassandra
Originally Posted by CROSSKILL View Post
*NOTE - if you are working BT don't even bother trying to keep a pet up on Naj'entus.
Sorry to disagree but my pet rarely dies on Naj. Between mend pet and chain heals, he survives pretty much every fight to the end.
#4046SourcePosted on <=2.0.0mako
Originally Posted by Khassandra View Post
Sorry to disagree but my pet rarely dies on Naj. Between mend pet and chain heals, he survives pretty much every fight to the end.
Don't forget the occasional prayer of mending bounce.
#4047SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Faerdael
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
Using the macro (tried several I found here) my pet does nothing, just sit there, until I tell it to go attack, then it start shooting and Kill commanding, along with normal melee. I seem to be missing something, but what?

Is it possible to have a macro where the WS just shoots and doesn't close?
Is it the Kill command that's making the pet close?
Is it possible to do decent dps without the Kill command? This one I'm pretty sure is "no".
1. You can create a macro where if the pet is not attacking, it will cast lightning bolt. Thing to bear in mind is that it will still close to 20 yards to be in range to cast this. You can try something like

/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget,exists] Lightning Breath;Lightning Breath
/cast !auto shot
/cast steady shot

2. Kill command will make your pet close
3. Of course you can do "decent" dps without kill command, but Kill command is obviously going to give you more..
#4048SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dormonag
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
Bingo.

Naj - pet dead
Supremus - pet dead
Illidan - pet dead
Sunwell robots - pet dead

I can keep him alive, but it's a lot of work and I do more dps with him just standing at my side staying alive than trying to work in heals, pulling him out, etc. I'm not an uber hunter who has l33t skills, I'm just an old PvE hunter doing the best he can with what he has

We have shamans, my pet gets accidental heals, but no healer's going to actually heal my pet

Thanks for the reply
Naj - My pet usually survives with heals off the melee and the occasional mend pet when Naj throws up his shield

Supremus - Your pet should only be on Supremus during the "Tank and Spank" phase. When the volcanoes are up make sure to top off his health and have him run alongside you.

Illidan:
Phase 1 -Pull him back when Illidan does his Flame Crash(?) after he lands he will usually spawn a fire when you can pull your pet back and send him back in after the tank has repositioned him.

Phase 2 - Pet by your side

Phase 3 - 5 Find a nice spot and put your pet on "stay" away from other players to avoid agonizing flames. Your BW cooldown should be saved for every shadow demon phase and even when you are stunned from a demon, your BW pet can do non-trivial damage to a slowed demon and really make a difference during the encounter.


The issue seems to be that you want to park your pet on the boss and forget about him/her and that's just not the way BM functions in higher level raids.
#4049SourcePosted on <=2.0.0lockelee
Hey folks, just wondering if anyone can help with some dps issues i have been having lately. I feel like i'm falling behind and i'm not sure what to do.

Armory The World of Warcraft Armory
WWS WWS Loading...

I use the Split 3:2 macro with KC on a seperate macro

Note, i do have my t6 shoulders which i just got last night and the badge chest(scaled drakeskin chestguard) I feel lost as my shots don't seem to be going as fast as i would like it too and my KC seems to take a bit longer to go off. I stare at the button when it's high lighted for like 3 secs, and sometimes it's soo long that it loses the chance to use it due to it wearing off.

Thanks again for your time
#4050SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Deathstalkr
Originally Posted by mmatrix View Post
Hi guys..

I heard the following are capped haste..

Haste cap
2.7: 32
2.8: 85
2.9: 137
3: 190


However, Im using the xbow of relentless... It is at speed 1.92 for me now.. with rapid fire it will be 1.37.. isnt it clipping my steadyshot??

And isnt the optimal att spd with haste is 1.9?
Btw, here is an armory of my hunter..

The World of Warcraft Armory
I don't recall exactly what the post says but, Ideal I have always read 1.9 is the 'sweet spot' for a BM hunter. This is the speed you would be at Un-hasted, IE sitting in Shat. There is a post somewhere in this forum that goes into this in much better detail. For further explanation please search this thread or perhaps someone will link it if they want to do the work for you.


P.S. just as a quick note, I took a look at your armory, the easiest attainable item I seen as an upgrade for you would be the cape out of ZA. Or you could dump the mojo's and pick up badge 2h thus dropping another haste item for the 1.9 speed. Just options...refer to the spreed sheets as always.
#4051SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3nfmmalice
Hello, I just recently picked back up my hunter after 3-4 months of Inactivity.. (HAd to Switch to a Mana Battery Spriest for raids)

Since a lot of what seem to be newer mechanics have come into play, I was hoping someone could take a look at my Setup and make suggestions...

I have 3 Rainged Weapons to Choose from: Sunfury, Wolfslayer, and the Ancient Amani Bow off ZulJin that I got 2 Days ago...

Here's an Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory

(Please Excuse the Carrot.. I Actually Have Bloodlust Brooch in it's Place with Hourglass)

The Shot Rotation I am using is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Lightning Breath(Rank 6)
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Im only getting ~715 DPS Witht the Amani Longbow...

When I first came back, I was using my Sunfury, and this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I was hitting ~845 DPS Average...

Is Sunfury a Superior Weapon? Should I go Back to Wolfslayer?

I HAVE to be missing SOMETHING, because I feel like I should be doing more damage than that...

Any IDeas or help would be GREATLY Appreciated!
#4052SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Squinky001
Originally Posted by nfmmalice View Post
Hello, I just recently picked back up my hunter after 3-4 months of Inactivity.. (HAd to Switch to a Mana Battery Spriest for raids)

Since a lot of what seem to be newer mechanics have come into play, I was hoping someone could take a look at my Setup and make suggestions...

I have 3 Rainged Weapons to Choose from: Sunfury, Wolfslayer, and the Ancient Amani Bow off ZulJin that I got 2 Days ago...

Here's an Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory

(Please Excuse the Carrot.. I Actually Have Bloodlust Brooch in it's Place with Hourglass)

The Shot Rotation I am using is:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Lightning Breath(Rank 6)
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Im only getting ~715 DPS Witht the Amani Longbow...

When I first came back, I was using my Sunfury, and this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/cast !Auto shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill command
/cast Steady shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

I was hitting ~845 DPS Average...

Is Sunfury a Superior Weapon? Should I go Back to Wolfslayer?

I HAVE to be missing SOMETHING, because I feel like I should be doing more damage than that...

Any IDeas or help would be GREATLY Appreciated!

A majority of the difference there is going to be due to the macros you're using. The first macro is a /castsequence and forces a 1:1 rotation. With slower bows that proves to be less DPS because of a lot of dead time (time spent between the stead shot going off and waitng for the next auto shot to shoot). The second macro is a /cast/cast macro which gives a rotation based on current weapon speed. If your unhasted speed is slow enough it gives something akin to a 3:2 rotation, a "AS, SS, AS, SS, SS, AS, repeat" which ends up being better DPS with a slow weapon even though you're clipping auto shots. The clipping is intentional to create as little deadtime as possible.

Try punching your gear in to Cheeky's spreadsheet as well as taking all three weapons out to Dr. Boom and testing them with the /cast/cast macro. From my understanding, Wolfslayer is one of the best BM weapons until the badge crossbow because of it's speed lending to the least amount of deadtime in your rotation.
#4053SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.3
nfmmalice
Well.. I just switched over to Manito's Macro.. and my DPS went up...

But Everytime I try to Aspect of Viper... it turns it off.. ??

And my Kill Command Isnt Triggering.. ?

Last edited by nfmmalice : 08/05/08 at 4:11 PM.
#4054SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Korikin
Maybe your shot macro is clicking your aspect of the viper button and turning it off?
#4055SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Faerdael
Have no idea what the Viper thing is about . . .

As far as kill command not firing goes, it means that your /click line does not match the position where you have the second button. Can't really help you there, you are going to need to find the proper value in the macro to match the position of the kill command macro.
#4056SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Mondas
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
Bingo.

Naj - pet dead
Supremus - pet dead
Illidan - pet dead
Sunwell robots - pet dead

I can keep him alive, but it's a lot of work and I do more dps with him just standing at my side staying alive than trying to work in heals, pulling him out, etc. I'm not an uber hunter who has l33t skills, I'm just an old PvE hunter doing the best he can with what he has

We have shamans, my pet gets accidental heals, but no healer's going to actually heal my pet

Thanks for the reply
A combination of Avoidance (reducing burst damage to 4250), Sporeling Snack, raid buffs and the occasional Mend Pet, Chain Heal or Lifebloom should be enough to keep a BM pet alive throughout the fight.
#4057SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3nfmmalice
Is there maybe a Bar Mod affecting it?


I found the Right Spot... Turns out I had it in Right12 not LEft... But it still doesnt show Kill Command on the damage list in Recount...
#4058SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Faerdael
Mods such as Bartender and Bongos can affect the value that you need to submit on your macro, as they let you reorder action bars and have their own additional bars as well, which can require a different object to be called on your /click line.
#4059SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3nfmmalice
So.. what should my HAste rating be to effectively thread a 1:1 Macro?
#4060SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.3Barradin
there's been a bunch of threads on this, but generally, 1.92s attack speed is where you start to see little to no benefit to using the /cast/cast macro over the castsequence one (I personally see about a 40dps downgrade going to a perfect 1:1 rotation at that speed).

More important though is to see what your attack speed will be with quickshots/dst/drums as you don't want those talents to be providing "wasted haste". Keep your hasted shot speed above 1.6 to 1.7 depending on your latency... this typically means about 85 passive haste with a 2.8 (badge) bow.
#4061SourcePosted on <=2.0.0sepulturian
Originally Posted by Krystallynn View Post
Bingo.

Naj - pet dead
Supremus - pet dead
Illidan - pet dead
Sunwell robots - pet dead

I can keep him alive, but it's a lot of work and I do more dps with him just standing at my side staying alive than trying to work in heals, pulling him out, etc. I'm not an uber hunter who has l33t skills, I'm just an old PvE hunter doing the best he can with what he has

We have shamans, my pet gets accidental heals, but no healer's going to actually heal my pet

Thanks for the reply
Just a few things that might help. For BT, MH, SWP, make sure your pets have max fire + shadow resists. Helps out a lot. How much stam does your pet have with kings and fort?

NAJ - I remember started BT and having a few problems but not that many regarding pet heals. Just make sure hes full health before the bubble breaks and prehot up after it does.
Sup - Are you pulling your pet back during the kite phase?
Illidan - Phase 1 is a little tricky, I sometimes have to pull him back after a Flame Crash and send him back in so hes behind Illy. Your pet will take a variable amount of damage depending on his position, just be ready to mend pet! Phase 2 I usually just keep her beside me, sometimes sending her in to get a crit for FI and bring her back but really its just safer to keep her by your side.
sunwell robots - If your pet is targeted for a L5, L4...there isn't much anyone can do.

I also have Pet Stay bound to sometime easy for those clutch saves! Hope this helps.
#4062SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cauchy|Ticho
This is just to check if I understood a few things right.

Apart from hit if not capped, haste is valued higher than any other stat for us by every spreadsheet and calculation I have seen. In most cases this leads to haste items being best in or close to best in slot. But, haste is "capped" depending on weapon base speed, since Bloodlust+drums+ cooldowns active can lead to steady cast time being longer than autoshot cooldown, resulting in a dps loss - at least, that is the reasoning for the haste cap as I understood it, correct me if I am wrong.

I am playing a hunter twink with access to early BT and full MH. I geared up via badges, t5, and one hyjal piece so far but I am struggling with the mechanics now. I use both BT craftable recipes, giving me 64 haste, and I use relentless.
Gearing further up now is a bit messy. Should I get Bristlebolt Striker form Archimonde? As I understand it, fast weapons are better, but are they really given that haste scales better than any other stat, and looking at nice haste pieces like ZA cloak, ZA neck, valestalker gridle and badge axe?

If I use these pieces I am close to 200 passive haste, which would speed up bristlebolt.
Is it worthwhile to do so or should I keep my Crossbow, stay with the 84 hard haste cap and gear up with the worse scaling but more traditional damage stats like AP, crit and agi?
#4063SourcePosted on <=2.0.0mako
I don't think you could call yourself a twink =P

Anyway, Bristleblitz is probably better.

Haste can be seen as hit rating. Once you "cap it" (aka reduce weapon speed to "ideal") it provides no real benefit and traditional DPS stats become far superior. So by switching to the slower bow, you open up the ability to pick up more haste and see benefits from it. But it will really depend on your overall gear setup.

You should stay far away from the hyjal haste belt and za haste neck as they are both downright terrible unless you've got greens. Badge axe is good, and ZA cloak is easily on par with the teron one.
#4064SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.3
NotQuiteThere
First time poster long time reader. Sorry in advance for the wall of text I tend to get in to this.

With all of the discussion of haste cap and when to use haste vs other stats I figure this might be a good spot for my first post.

I would consider myself a ridiculously geared Alliance Dwarf Beast Mastery Hunter in 4/6 Sunwell guild working on Muru.

Over the past several months I have been through testing of multiple different macros and haste gear combinations in order to put up the numbers my guildmates said I should have been putting up. I have used Cheeky's forever and have not quite seen the numbers it has given me...until recently. Through testing multiple variations of macros (ie /cast auto /cast steady /cast KC /cast LB) I would arrange them around in different orders hoping to see at least 2500 or so dps, but I still hovered around 2k. I always thought my low dps was a factor of using the badge bow along with the Dragon Spine Trophy and the rotation being off because of too much haste or something else I was doing wrong. I was at my wits end and decided to instead of using the badge bow like I had been I would go with the Arcanite Steam-Pistol and no haste other than the Dragon Spine Trophy. I had recently gotten the Shivering Felspine and using it along with the badge bow didnt seem to improve things. So with the Steam-Pistol and mojo daggers x2 I just happened to get put in to a group with a Feral Druid, A Shaman, A Warrior, and a Pally and FINALLY I did almost 2600 dps I was ~50 dps from beating our Dual warglaive rogue.

I have been using the badge bow for some time now along with Dragon Spine Trophy. Even with the Arcanite Steam Pistol the WWS most nights does not look right at ALL. Both with the bow and the gun there are usually always strings of steady shots. Almost like a 2:1 rotation a good portion of the time. As for approching the "haste cap" with DST should one wear any haste items at all? Wouldn't the haste from Improved Aspect of the Hawk enough along with the to push one over the limit when it comes to "haste cap". I always thought that the use of haste would help combat latency in order to prevent steady strings. Wouldn't everyones "haste cap" be different?

I usually sit at about 170ms Latency and use 3:2 of some variation.

With Badge bow I can either sit at 2.03 unhasted or I can use the Pistol and sit at 2.1 unhasted. I can put on various haste items to lower both speeds dramatically. Pistol with Felspine is 2.03. Badge bow with felspine 1.96. I also have Grip of Mannoroth and Grips of Damnation to play with for additional haste without a terrible loss of dps according to the spreadsheet. Still havent gotten the haste cloak from Zul'Aman to drop.

With all of the haste procs from rapid fire, drums, heroism, IAotH at once I go well below 1.2 close around .7 shot speed. Would it be viable to try and use a 2:1 when shot speed is this low and then use the 3:2 when >= 1.6 shot speed and have it turn in to a 1:1 or 3:2 rejecting such a thing as a "haste cap"?

With many different combinations of haste I still see these steady shot strings while just using the 3:2 rotation. Could this be from too much haste or could this be a factor of arrangement of the 3:2 macro (ie having steady before auto or auto before steady or having KC at the begining or at the end or in the middle and the same for Lightning Breath). I have thought of ditching the Dragon Spine Trophy all together and even speccing out of Imp Aspect of the Hawk. I have even thought of just ditching the 3:2 and going with a 1:1.

Last edited by NotQuiteThere : Today at 10:01 AM.
#4065SourcePosted on <=2.0.0moonsprite
Help ~~ Wolfslayer VS sunfury

Hey, Just got back into raiding, been out for a few months. Been working on my gear but im far away from the badge bow and I still have my sunfury. Fully raid buffed a bit over 1k dps, usually 8-900 unbuffed.

Was wondering If I should use my wolfslayer over my sunfury, have heard good things about it, and What is the best rotation macro that I could use for it? I have no haste.

To see my stats or whatever my character is Moonsprite (Magtheridon)

Also if someone could tell me a good rotation for macro for sun fury so I could try that too before I scope the wolfslayer.

I use /cast auto
/cast steady
/kill command (not exactly like that but you get the idea). I like it sofar, it forces an auto, I think it works out to 3:2.

Would like to know if theres a rotation that works better with sunfury, as well as the best rotation for wolfslayer as a BM hunter.

Greatly appreciated!

-Moon
#4066SourcePosted on <=2.0.0daemitus
generally, with your choices between those two items, you dont have the haste to make sunfury work. the gun is superior in almost every sense.
#4067SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Final_Rest
Originally Posted by NotQuiteThere View Post
First time poster long time reader. Sry in advance for the wall of text....I tend to get in to this...

With all of the discussion of haste cap and when to use haste vs other stats I figure this might be a good spot for my first post.

I would consider myself a ridiculously geared Alliance Dwarf hunter in 4/6 SWP guild working on Muru.

Over the past several months I have been through testing of multiple different macros and gear combinations in order to put up the numbers my guildmates said i should have been putting up. I have used Cheeky's forever and have not quite seen the numbers its given me until recently.

My fellow hunters in the guild and I began recently combatting a post by another guild member who posted a WWS of one of SK Gaming's hunters doing 3000 dps on a Brutallus fight and said that he was giving us something to shoot for. On average I would do about 2000 dps in a grp with a Warrior, a Feral Druid and some other random classes but never really a shaman. I had been told I was not doing what I needed to be doing to put up the numbers I should be so I did not deserve a stacked grp. Through testing multiple variations of macros (ie /cast auto /cast steady /cast KC /cast LB) I would arrange them around in different orders hoping to see at least 2500 or so dps, but I still hovered around 2k.

I always thought my low dps was a factor of using the badge bow along with the DST and the rotation being off or something I was doing wrong. I was at my wits end and decided to instead of using the badge bow like I had been I would go with the Arcanite Steam-Pistol and no haste other than the DST. I had recently gotten the Felspine and using it along with the badge bow didnt seem to improve things. So with the Steam-Pistol and mojo daggers x2 and 3 hunters in the raid I just happened to get put in to a group with a Feral Druid, A Shaman, A Warrior, and a Pally and FINALLY I did almost 2600 dps I was ~50 dps from beating our Dual warglaive rogue. I think this proved to them that group was the problem and not me personally. Again latter that week in BT they stacked 3 BM hunters Feral Druid Shaman and we definately ranked much higher than usual for the night.

So now that the the group thing has been situated I wish I had kept all of my data on what rotation or arrangement of /casts seemed to work the best but I tossed it all thinking it was bad since I hadn't done 2500 dps.


I usually sit at about 170ms Latency and use 3:2 of some variation.

With Badge bow I can either sit at 2.03 unhasted or I can use the Pistol and sit at 2.1 unhasted

I can put on various haste items to lower both speeds dramatically. Pistol with Felspine is 2.03. Badge bow with felspine 1.96.

I also have Grip of Mannoroth and Grips of Damnation to play with for additional haste without a terrible loss of dps according to the spreadsheet. Still havent gotten the ZA cloak or Trink to drop for me


I have been using the badge bow for some time now along with DST. Even with the Arcanite Steam Pistol the WWS most nights does not look right at ALL. Instead of SS SS AS SS AS I was seeing SS SS SS AS SS SS AS SS AS SS SS SS AS. I can not figure out where the steady strings are coming from. With the Pistol unhasted I think because I was sitting at 2.1 speed along with latency pushed me in to a 2:1 and 1:1 at points rather than a 3:2 and 1:1 but when I am well below 2.1 with the bow I have no clue.


Questions...

1)With DST should I wear any haste items at all with the Badge bow. Should I even use the DST. Should I switch to the Steam-Pistol and use the DST and haste items. Should I spec out of Iaoth.

2)With all of the haste procs from rapid fire, drums, heroism, IaotH at once i go well below 1.2 close around .7 or so shot speed... would it be viable to try and use a 2:1 here and use the 3:2 when I am around 1.6ish shot speed and have it turn in to a 1:1. Or should I just let auto fire solo when I get that low.

3)Is there any arrangement of the 3:2 macro that is better than others ie having steady before auto or auto before steady or having KC at the begining or at the end or in the middle and the same for Lightning Breath. I wish I had kept all of my test data. Moral of the story..just because others tell you its your fault doesnt make it true.

4) Any suggestions on where the steady strings are coming from?


or should I screw all of the above and just go all out 1:1?


Next Brutallus I plan to go with Badge Bow, Felspine, DST and no other haste gear than that which has been my usualy setup for a LONG time before the group change. I am going to roll with a very simple 3:2. Unless you guys can offer suggestions otherwise. I usually always run with a Wind Serpent but the night of the 2600 Brut I brought a ravager because we were having an issue with it getting pally buffs and the ravager almsot always got the buffs it needed.

~2600 DPS Brutallus
Wow Web Stats

~2k DPS Brutallus
Wow Web Stats

Armory
The World of Warcraft Armory

Ive been playing with the use of the some gear over others according to Cheeky's spreadhseet:
SSO neck vs Choker of Nightmares
BM Shoulders vs T6
Eternal Champ ring vs Angelista's
Teron Cloak vs Kaelthas Cloak


PRAY GOLDEN BOW DROPS SOON....or even Bristleblitz for that matter.


Thanks in Advance

~Nim
Out of your current Gear set, cheeky's is showing Pistol/1:1 at about 2270 DPS, Pistol/3:2 at about 2310 DPS, Crossbow/3:2 at 2327, and Crossbow/1:1 at 1 DPS higher than the 3:2 at 2328. So with just felspine your best choice is using the Crossbow with a 1:1.

Plugging your gear into cheeky's, this is what i am looking at as far as comparing the Different items:
SSO > Choker by 6 DPS with your Current Hit.
Beast Tamers > T6 by 11 DPS
Eternal Champ > Angelista's by 12 DPS. (Though i could've sworn i've seen 126 static ArP is better than the Unreliable Proc from the Hyjal ring)
Teron Cloak > Kael Cloak by 12 DPS with your current hit.

I didn't answer everything, but this should help you a bit.
#4068SourcePosted on <=2.0.0moonsprite
Originally Posted by daemitus View Post
generally, with your choices between those two items, you dont have the haste to make sunfury work. the gun is superior in almost every sense.
What rotation macro works best with wolfslayer no haste then?
#4069SourcePosted on <=2.0.0blkthunder
So according to my WWS logs i usually sit around 900ish DPS. This is a little disturbing to me due to the fact that ive always been top dps and it seems in t6 content the locks/mages are able to pull away from me prett good now. Cheekys sheet is saying i should be sitting at 1163.29 dps unbuffed.

Link to WWS
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

Stats are:
AP: 2036 (w/hawk)
Crit: 29.69
Hit: Hit
Mana: 6658
Ar Pen: 308
Haste: 64
Bow: 2.8 speed

Specifics: Relentless earthshroud diamond, SSO neck, Hourglass/BB combo, also when at 20% mana switch to viper and 2xS1 1 Handers with 30 int on each and dual mana oils

What can i do to catch up to the other DPS with "easily available" upgrades?


Unfortunatly Armory is PVP gear but i'll relog tomorrow morning in PVE gear
The World of Warcraft Armory
#4070SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Nataliah
Your shot rotation is way off. You're trying to use arcane shot and multi-shot with steady shot, and as a beast mastery hunter, that isn't necessary. Even if you are trying to use those specials in place of steady shots in a 1:1 rotation, you're still not taking advantage of global cooldowns, seeing as how you have more auto shots than special shots combined. This is evident in your boss kills of The Lurker, Supremus, and Anetheron. Fire those steady shots and your DPS will go up.

Use a 3:2 macro instead. Many have been posted in this thread; just scroll up or check the previous page for the macro.

On Kaz'rogal, all you did was fire auto shots. I understand the nature of the fight and the importance of conserving mana, but at the same time you can't just stand there and auto shoot the boss to death. You have to use your mana if you want to keep up the DPS. Continue using steady shots, even for this fight.

On Morogrim, your abilities are all over the place. For the murlocs, drop an explosive trap and that's it. Let the mages and warlocks take care of the AOE. Skip the volley, raptor strikes, and wing clips. Focus on the boss. Your steady shot usage here is very low.
#4071SourcePosted on <=2.0.0blkthunder
yeah it kinda sucks, i was tasked with helping to aoe the murlocs, so i did the only aoe we have. Multi at min range, drop exp trap and volley, using the wing clips to kite the ones i pulled aggro on. :*(

I guess i'll go test out the dps of the 3:2 on Boom to see if it yields higher dps.